Re: [opensource-dev] This is how Linden Lab treats it's customers...

[Yoz Grahame]

On 28 August 2010 21:25, Tigro Spottystripes
wrote:

> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> Hash: SHA512
>
> Please read http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/WEB-2647
>

Thanks! Resolved.

-- Yoz
___
Policies and (un)subscribe information available here:
http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev
Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges

Re: [opensource-dev] This is how Linden Lab treats it's customers...

[Tigro Spottystripes]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA512

Please read http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/WEB-2647

On 28/8/2010 14:36, Altair Sythos Memo wrote:
> On Sat, 28 Aug 2010 18:19:57 +0100
> Gareth Nelson  wrote:
> 
>> That's a serious bug in LL's business model - your account is safer as
>> a basic, since a premium account that quits paying means the account
>> is deleted (rather than merely downgraded).
> 
> nobody is deleted why skip a payment, happened to me some time ago,
> account is just "suspended" and login inworld locked, as soon as you
> fill the debt all is restored. I use a revolving credit card, this mean
> i can use it after charged with money (ui use always this on all
> internet shopping activities, so if somebody steal the number cannot
> take my money, every time i charge only the cash needed). 
> 
> if somebody skip payments to LL, hold payments from customers and let
> suspension expire losing account and sims owned isn't a victim, is
> a thief... and i don't think is a fault of LL business model
> 
-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: GnuPG v2.0.14 (MingW32)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/

iEYEAREKAAYFAkx54SUACgkQ8ZFfSrFHsmX93gCghl4e3qVxlyzqj9vKJzGw2WXr
zv4AnA7bMzo9+7zcWuEMwLTp6+nGBkbt
=1yyB
-END PGP SIGNATURE-
___
Policies and (un)subscribe information available here:
http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev
Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges

Re: [opensource-dev] This is how Linden Lab treats it's customers...

[Yoz Grahame]

This *was* a serious bug, but fixed over a year ago. Now a premium account
in default is merely suspended with the ability to fully restore on payment.

On 28 August 2010 10:19, Gareth Nelson  wrote:

> That's a serious bug in LL's business model - your account is safer as
> a basic, since a premium account that quits paying means the account
> is deleted (rather than merely downgraded).
>
> On Sat, Aug 28, 2010 at 5:35 PM, Tigro Spottystripes
>  wrote:
> > -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> > Hash: SHA512
> >
> > btw, if you're considering changing your account from premium to basic,
> > be sure to pay any money you own to LL and then downgrade your account
> > thru the site, do not just stop paying, if you stop paying them while
> > still being a premium they will wipe out all your account's data,
> > inventory L$ balance etc (i've seen some people that had the
> > misconception that to downgrade all you had to do was stop sending money
> > to LL, the ones that didn't got set straight in time lost everything)
> >
> > On 28/8/2010 13:01, mysticaldem...@xrgrid.com wrote:
> >> I don’t think anyone disagrees with.  The problem is you can’t get a
> >> homestead unless you have a full sim already and so you need to rent
> >> from someone and this puts you dependent on someone else which is
> >> frustrating for people.  So to log in one day and see all your hard work
> >> returned to your lost and found isn’t a pleasant experience and seems SL
> >> if they are serious about the user experience would have some better
> >> ways to handle this.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> I don’t know if you rent from someone else if you can do a restore of
> >> your region to the new location.  But seems like there are ways to make
> >> this better if not just let people rent homesteads which to me I believe
> >> would be a huge market.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Anyway this whole subject is off topic for this mailing list and
> >> probably should be on the SL forums.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> M.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> 
> >>
> >> *From:* opensource-dev-boun...@lists.secondlife.com
> >> [mailto:opensource-dev-boun...@lists.secondlife.com] *On Behalf Of
> *Joel
> >> Foner
> >> *Sent:* Saturday, August 28, 2010 11:49 AM
> >> *To:* Aleric Inglewood
> >> *Cc:* opensource-dev
> >> *Subject:* Re: [opensource-dev] This is how Linden Lab treats it's
> >> customers...
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> After being a paying customer for more than a year, renting a
> homestead,
> >> and thus paying Linden Lab ~ USD$ 1000 or so ... they just take the
> sim
> >> offline, with no opening to even discuss the matter.
> >>
> >> Why? Because of something I did? No. The reason is that Linden
> >> Lab isn't interested in the "little people". Unless you have a FULL
> >> sim of USD$ 300 per month, you don't count.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> There is a simple answer for this. You are the customer of your landlord
> >> in this case, not Linden Lab. Yes, you have a Second Life account, but
> >> you are not renting your land from Linden Lab. You are renting your land
> >> from another avatar in Second Life. Linden Lab is not a party to your
> >> decision to rent... so why are they accountable if some other avatar
> >> bails out and decides to "level their city block"? If the landlord
> >> decided to stop renting, boot everyone off and re-terraform the region
> >> for some completely different use, would you think Linden Lab would have
> >> any responsibility for stopping that or somehow compensating you? It's
> >> the landlord's land, and they can do anything with it they choose to,
> >> including shut it down, leave, take it over from the renters, or shut it
> >> down and let no one else in at all.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Joel
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> ___
> >> Policies and (un)subscribe information available here:
> >> http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev
> >> Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting
> privileges
> > -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
> > Version: GnuPG v2.0.14 (MingW32)
> > Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/
> >
> > iEYEAREKAAYFAkx5Os0ACgkQ8ZFfSrFHsmWNbQCeL35cNo4MkluDPXFx2+ZGb3z3
> > G/UAn31zdQ2HEKMoRzbp+3CYV/C+O5CM
> > =pGVm
> > -END PGP SIGNATURE-
> > ___
> > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here:
> > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev
> > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting
> privileges
> >
>
>
>
> --
> “Lanie, I’m going to print more printers. Lots more printers. One for
> everyone. That’s worth going to jail for. That’s worth anything.” -
> Printcrime by Cory Doctrow
>
> Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments.
> See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html
> ___
> Policies and (un)subscribe

Re: [opensource-dev] This is how Linden Lab treats it's customers...

[Patnad Babii]

yep this was bait and switch scheme and they got away with it. They probably 
made around 5 millions dollars that summer when they did double the prim 
limit on openspace. It was actually one of the best move they did to the SL 
economy in years except when they decided to increase it. Many people have 
abandon their sims at that time and just left SL.

Want a suggestion, you want a nice setup and you dont want it to be 
disrupted and for much cheaper. Find a opensim grid you enjoy, setup your 
own sim there (could be hosted on your own computer or vps hosting for 20$ a 
month) and this way no more trouble like this, you can even backup your 
whole sim in case you mess up something.

LL is loosing more and more ground each time they doing what they like and 
not what the customers want.


-Message d'origine- 
From: Aidan Thornton
Sent: Saturday, August 28, 2010 6:24 PM
To: Meadhbh Hamrick
Cc: opensource-dev
Subject: Re: [opensource-dev] This is how Linden Lab treats it's 
customers...

On Sat, Aug 28, 2010 at 6:54 PM, Meadhbh Hamrick  
wrote:
> but for reasons i never learned, linden never implemented prim
> restrictions for openspace sims. so even though you were only supposed
> to have some small number of prims in an openspace sim, the system let
> you go over that limit. so guess what happened? yes, that's right,
> people started putting a lot of prims on sims hosted on overloaded
> cores. some sim owners even went so far as to rent out openspace sims
> to people without mentioning the fact that their new virtual parcels
> were hosted on CPUs that were a touch overtaxed.

That's the interesting thing. Linden Labs did implement prim
restrictions for openspace sims from the start. In fact, they had
quite a small prim limit - 1875 prims, which was enough for the
intended use and possibly a low-prim house somewhere for one or two
users. Then Linden Labs, in an effort to make them more widely useful,
*doubled* the prim limit. This was quite widely advertised at the
time, and a large number of people bought them... just in time for
Linden Labs to pull off a significant and unexpected price increase
together with more restrictions. Of course, at that point everyone had
already invested money and time in their regions that they didn't want
to see wasted.
___
Policies and (un)subscribe information available here:
http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev
Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting 
privileges 

___
Policies and (un)subscribe information available here:
http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev
Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges

Re: [opensource-dev] This is how Linden Lab treats it's customers...

[Aidan Thornton]

On Sat, Aug 28, 2010 at 6:54 PM, Meadhbh Hamrick  wrote:
> but for reasons i never learned, linden never implemented prim
> restrictions for openspace sims. so even though you were only supposed
> to have some small number of prims in an openspace sim, the system let
> you go over that limit. so guess what happened? yes, that's right,
> people started putting a lot of prims on sims hosted on overloaded
> cores. some sim owners even went so far as to rent out openspace sims
> to people without mentioning the fact that their new virtual parcels
> were hosted on CPUs that were a touch overtaxed.

That's the interesting thing. Linden Labs did implement prim
restrictions for openspace sims from the start. In fact, they had
quite a small prim limit - 1875 prims, which was enough for the
intended use and possibly a low-prim house somewhere for one or two
users. Then Linden Labs, in an effort to make them more widely useful,
*doubled* the prim limit. This was quite widely advertised at the
time, and a large number of people bought them... just in time for
Linden Labs to pull off a significant and unexpected price increase
together with more restrictions. Of course, at that point everyone had
already invested money and time in their regions that they didn't want
to see wasted.
___
Policies and (un)subscribe information available here:
http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev
Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges

Re: [opensource-dev] This is how Linden Lab treats it's customers...

[Sythos]

On Sat, 28 Aug 2010 13:12:17 -0700
Rob Nelson  wrote:

>   And what venues can we use?  The forums are almost as heavily 
> moderated as the mailing list, half of the time the blogs don't even 
> allow you to comment.  I'd like to see a site moderated by a third
> party that won't delete your account or add a moderation flag to your
> account just for talking negatively about Linden Lab.

if elsewhere is too mdoerated to don't allow so not corret things be
written isn't a good reason to fill a opensource list of this kind of
junk if somebody don't pay is natural the account gone if you
don't pay your DSL nobody told you anything?
___
Policies and (un)subscribe information available here:
http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev
Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges

Re: [opensource-dev] This is how Linden Lab treats it's customers...

[Rob Nelson]

  And what venues can we use?  The forums are almost as heavily 
moderated as the mailing list, half of the time the blogs don't even 
allow you to comment.  I'd like to see a site moderated by a third party 
that won't delete your account or add a moderation flag to your account 
just for talking negatively about Linden Lab.

On 8/28/2010 1:02 PM, Altair Sythos Memo wrote:
> On Sat, 28 Aug 2010 12:56:56 -0700
> Dahlia Trimble  wrote:
>
>> After reading this thread, somehow all my past bad memories from
>> being a mainland resident no longer seem quite so bad.
> if you don't pay your fee mainland too your account will be
> suspended anyway, and deleted ripping away the land if not fixed
> balance :)
>
> can we talk again about code and viewer?
> ___
> Policies and (un)subscribe information available here:
> http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev
> Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges
>

___
Policies and (un)subscribe information available here:
http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev
Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges

Re: [opensource-dev] This is how Linden Lab treats it's customers...

[Sythos]

On Sat, 28 Aug 2010 12:56:56 -0700
Dahlia Trimble  wrote:

> After reading this thread, somehow all my past bad memories from
> being a mainland resident no longer seem quite so bad.

if you don't pay your fee mainland too your account will be
suspended anyway, and deleted ripping away the land if not fixed
balance :)

can we talk again about code and viewer?
___
Policies and (un)subscribe information available here:
http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev
Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges

Re: [opensource-dev] This is how Linden Lab treats it's customers...

[Marc Adored]

Can you guys please take the topic elsewhere its hard to catch whats
relevant with everyone discussing this off topic thread. I'm sure
there is a sl-dr...@lists.secondlife.com or similar available for
ranting about customer service and business practices but if I'm not
mistaken this list is for opensource development of the sl viewer.
Thank you for not filling my opensource-dev folder with any more of
this :)

- fellow former land owner that lost $250 all at once to 3rd party
land purchase scam

On Sat, Aug 28, 2010 at 3:56 PM, Dahlia Trimble  wrote:
> After reading this thread, somehow all my past bad memories from being a
> mainland resident no longer seem quite so bad.
>
> On Sat, Aug 28, 2010 at 11:21 AM, Carlo Wood  wrote:
>>
>> Sorry, but you are ignorant.
>>
>> A running sim is being paid for. That money is paid to Linden Lab.
>> It doesn't matter if that money was first paid by a grandmother to
>> her grandson, then double by gambling in the casino and subsequently
>> paid to some random stranger on Xstreet who give L$ for it, which
>> then were paid to some untrusty game-landlord who gave the game
>> money to yet another random stranger on Xstreet for which he recceived
>> real dollars which then finally are paid to Linden Lab.
>>
>> Namely, if the guy actually using the sim doesn't want to pay for
>> it, the sim can't run. The fact that it runs means someone pays
>> for it and you can bet on it that that comes from the wallet of the
>> person using it (living on it).
>>
>> So, in this case the sim was running a year aka $100 per month.
>> Now the sim isn't running anymore and this income of LL stopped.
>>
>> The renter then offers to continue renting it for $100 per month,
>> by paying *directly* to LL, but that is not accepted.
>>
>> It is this last thing that is ridiculous. Or at the VERY LEAST it
>> should be (or have been) possible to rent an isolated/private homestead
>> directly from Linden Lab.
>>
>> Don't say that 'L$' isn't real money so one has no rights. This is
>> not about what a RL lawyer would say, this is about common sense
>> and people being pissed off till they vomit and want to run away
>> screaming from SL, or at least from Linden Lab.
>>
>> On Sat, Aug 28, 2010 at 11:51:03AM -0400, Joel Foner wrote:
>> > Quick note... if the $100 a month, if this is rent, is not being paid to
>> > Linden
>> > Lab if you're renting. It's paid to another avatar... different
>> > picture... It
>> > seems to me the slap in the face is a landlord who does this to a large
>> > number
>> > of tenants without notice, actually.
>> >
>> > Joel (also going back to lurking)
>> >
>> > On Sat, Aug 28, 2010 at 11:42 AM, Darmath  wrote:
>> >
>> >      On 29/08/2010 1:23 AM, Gareth Nelson wrote:
>> >     >   and pointing out that LL have no contract with tenants of
>> >     > rental regions - tenants of such regions are thus not customers.
>> >     True. But a premium account holder is a customer of LL. "And to say
>> > well
>> >     we dont want you $100 a month because your not a full sim owner" is
>> > a
>> >     slap in the face, period. FWIW i'm a premium account holder...whose
>> > now
>> >     returning to lurking.
>> >     ___
>> >     Policies and (un)subscribe information available here:
>> >     http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev
>> >     Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting
>> >     privileges
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>> > ___
>> > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here:
>> > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev
>> > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting
>> > privileges
>>
>>
>> --
>> Carlo Wood 
>> ___
>> Policies and (un)subscribe information available here:
>> http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev
>> Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting
>> privileges
>
>
> ___
> Policies and (un)subscribe information available here:
> http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev
> Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting
> privileges
>
___
Policies and (un)subscribe information available here:
http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev
Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges

Re: [opensource-dev] This is how Linden Lab treats it's customers...

[Dahlia Trimble]

After reading this thread, somehow all my past bad memories from being a
mainland resident no longer seem quite so bad.

On Sat, Aug 28, 2010 at 11:21 AM, Carlo Wood  wrote:

> Sorry, but you are ignorant.
>
> A running sim is being paid for. That money is paid to Linden Lab.
> It doesn't matter if that money was first paid by a grandmother to
> her grandson, then double by gambling in the casino and subsequently
> paid to some random stranger on Xstreet who give L$ for it, which
> then were paid to some untrusty game-landlord who gave the game
> money to yet another random stranger on Xstreet for which he recceived
> real dollars which then finally are paid to Linden Lab.
>
> Namely, if the guy actually using the sim doesn't want to pay for
> it, the sim can't run. The fact that it runs means someone pays
> for it and you can bet on it that that comes from the wallet of the
> person using it (living on it).
>
> So, in this case the sim was running a year aka $100 per month.
> Now the sim isn't running anymore and this income of LL stopped.
>
> The renter then offers to continue renting it for $100 per month,
> by paying *directly* to LL, but that is not accepted.
>
> It is this last thing that is ridiculous. Or at the VERY LEAST it
> should be (or have been) possible to rent an isolated/private homestead
> directly from Linden Lab.
>
> Don't say that 'L$' isn't real money so one has no rights. This is
> not about what a RL lawyer would say, this is about common sense
> and people being pissed off till they vomit and want to run away
> screaming from SL, or at least from Linden Lab.
>
> On Sat, Aug 28, 2010 at 11:51:03AM -0400, Joel Foner wrote:
> > Quick note... if the $100 a month, if this is rent, is not being paid to
> Linden
> > Lab if you're renting. It's paid to another avatar... different
> picture... It
> > seems to me the slap in the face is a landlord who does this to a large
> number
> > of tenants without notice, actually.
> >
> > Joel (also going back to lurking)
> >
> > On Sat, Aug 28, 2010 at 11:42 AM, Darmath  wrote:
> >
> >  On 29/08/2010 1:23 AM, Gareth Nelson wrote:
> > >   and pointing out that LL have no contract with tenants of
> > > rental regions - tenants of such regions are thus not customers.
> > True. But a premium account holder is a customer of LL. "And to say
> well
> > we dont want you $100 a month because your not a full sim owner" is a
> > slap in the face, period. FWIW i'm a premium account holder...whose
> now
> > returning to lurking.
> > ___
> > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here:
> > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev
> > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting
> > privileges
> >
> >
> >
>
> > ___
> > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here:
> > http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev
> > Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting
> privileges
>
>
> --
> Carlo Wood 
> ___
> Policies and (un)subscribe information available here:
> http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev
> Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting
> privileges
>
___
Policies and (un)subscribe information available here:
http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev
Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges

Re: [opensource-dev] This is how Linden Lab treats it's customers...

[Carlo Wood]

Sorry, but you are ignorant.

A running sim is being paid for. That money is paid to Linden Lab.
It doesn't matter if that money was first paid by a grandmother to
her grandson, then double by gambling in the casino and subsequently
paid to some random stranger on Xstreet who give L$ for it, which
then were paid to some untrusty game-landlord who gave the game
money to yet another random stranger on Xstreet for which he recceived
real dollars which then finally are paid to Linden Lab.

Namely, if the guy actually using the sim doesn't want to pay for
it, the sim can't run. The fact that it runs means someone pays
for it and you can bet on it that that comes from the wallet of the
person using it (living on it).

So, in this case the sim was running a year aka $100 per month.
Now the sim isn't running anymore and this income of LL stopped.

The renter then offers to continue renting it for $100 per month,
by paying *directly* to LL, but that is not accepted.

It is this last thing that is ridiculous. Or at the VERY LEAST it
should be (or have been) possible to rent an isolated/private homestead
directly from Linden Lab.

Don't say that 'L$' isn't real money so one has no rights. This is
not about what a RL lawyer would say, this is about common sense
and people being pissed off till they vomit and want to run away
screaming from SL, or at least from Linden Lab.

On Sat, Aug 28, 2010 at 11:51:03AM -0400, Joel Foner wrote:
> Quick note... if the $100 a month, if this is rent, is not being paid to 
> Linden
> Lab if you're renting. It's paid to another avatar... different picture... It
> seems to me the slap in the face is a landlord who does this to a large number
> of tenants without notice, actually.
> 
> Joel (also going back to lurking)
> 
> On Sat, Aug 28, 2010 at 11:42 AM, Darmath  wrote:
> 
>  On 29/08/2010 1:23 AM, Gareth Nelson wrote:
> >   and pointing out that LL have no contract with tenants of
> > rental regions - tenants of such regions are thus not customers.
> True. But a premium account holder is a customer of LL. "And to say well
> we dont want you $100 a month because your not a full sim owner" is a
> slap in the face, period. FWIW i'm a premium account holder...whose now
> returning to lurking.
> ___
> Policies and (un)subscribe information available here:
> http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev
> Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting
> privileges
> 
> 
> 

> ___
> Policies and (un)subscribe information available here:
> http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev
> Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges


-- 
Carlo Wood 
___
Policies and (un)subscribe information available here:
http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev
Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges

Re: [opensource-dev] This is how Linden Lab treats it's customers...

[Meadhbh Hamrick]

while an actual lab employee like jack is probably the best reference
for this... i can provide a little bit of history. keep in mind that
this relies on some neurons that haven't been exercised in a bit, so i
could have some of the facts wrong.

so back in the day linden created openspace/void sims. the idea was
that you were only supposed to put a certain amount of stuff on them.
the deal was that instead of running 1 region per core, they were
running something like 3 or four regions per core (can't really
remember, but it was > 1 regions per core in any event.) if i remember
correctly, the agreement with openspace sim owners was that they would
use the sims very lightly and wouldn't exceed a certain number of
prims per openspace region.

but for reasons i never learned, linden never implemented prim
restrictions for openspace sims. so even though you were only supposed
to have some small number of prims in an openspace sim, the system let
you go over that limit. so guess what happened? yes, that's right,
people started putting a lot of prims on sims hosted on overloaded
cores. some sim owners even went so far as to rent out openspace sims
to people without mentioning the fact that their new virtual parcels
were hosted on CPUs that were a touch overtaxed.

eventually the community figured out what was going on and complained.
the more scrupulous land barons were making the argument: "hey, i'm
following the rules here and only renting out parcels on full sims,
but these other bozos are undercutting my business by breaking the
rules. what gives?"

so linden says "okay, we're raising the price on openspace sims" in an
effort to make it less profitable for people renting out void sims.

then people complain and linden says, "fine, we're going to get rid of
openspace sims all-together!" and then the community says, "ORLY?" and
linden says, "no, we were just kidding."

eventually they settled on the idea of "okay, you can have an
openspace sim, but only if you have a regular sim." i think that's
also when linden changed the name from "openspace" or "void" to
"homestead". the "homestead" sim product offering was, as i remember
it, a compromise mostly for sim owners who were using them in the way
linden thought they were supposed to be used.

so, fwiw, that's how we got to where we are (as i remember it.)

with respect to losing all your stuff when a sim owner evaporates (or
the sim changes hands.) IRL, if i'm renting from someone, i have
certain protections (depending on the jurisdiction.) but if i have a
lease agreement with someone and my landlord sells the property,
there's usually a period of time where the new owner has to honor the
lease. if the property is condemned, most counties (as i understand
it) give residents fair notice. the amount of notice and whether the
clock starts ticking before or after the final condemnation order
varies from jurisdiction to jurisdiction. but the idea is you're not
supposed to be thrown out on your rear overnight.

it would be "really cool(tm)" if there was some way to enforce that in
the SL server software. so if a sim owner isn't paying their bills to
LL, the tenants on the sim would be notified. depending on how the lab
manages sim foreclosure these days, that might be a reasonable
warning. also, i've got to think that under this system, landlords
that pay their tier on time would be able to charge a mild premium
over those that don't as there's one less hassle in dealing with them.

ultimately, IMHO, i hope we move to a system where the authoritative
copy of your content is not actually stored on linden servers, but on
some other "backup" server; linden just caches it. or maybe we could
do the OpenSim region backup thing, but  let parcel owners do the same
thing.

there's a lot of work to implement such a system; in a world where
linden manages the copy protection, it might require the use of
encrypted blobs in people's backups.

but a girl can dream...
--
meadhbh hamrick * it's pronounced "maeve"
@OhMeadhbh * http://meadhbh.org/ * ohmead...@gmail.com



On Sat, Aug 28, 2010 at 9:52 AM, Brian McGroarty  wrote:
> On Sat, Aug 28, 2010 at 5:50 AM, Aleric Inglewood
>  wrote:
>>
>> So one day I have a home, my own island where I live and
>> did built and work on for more than a year. Which is full of
>> objects of my dead partner that I can use but not Take Back
>> (no help from LInden Lab here either of course), and the
>> next -poof- offline. Not because *I* didn't pay, but because
>> LInden Lab doesn't give a shit about me, or my money.
>> Or it's customers.
>
> I hate that this has happened, and I don't know the reason why the full
> region prerequisite exists so I can't say if it makes sense.
>
> I don't think you've exhausted the concierge options, though. I'll follow up
> off-list, given that this is definitely way off topic.
>
> --
> Brian McGroarty | Linden Lab
> Sent from my Newton MP2100 via acoustic coupler
>
> ___
>

Re: [opensource-dev] This is how Linden Lab treats it's customers...

[Sythos]

On Sat, 28 Aug 2010 18:19:57 +0100
Gareth Nelson  wrote:

> That's a serious bug in LL's business model - your account is safer as
> a basic, since a premium account that quits paying means the account
> is deleted (rather than merely downgraded).

nobody is deleted why skip a payment, happened to me some time ago,
account is just "suspended" and login inworld locked, as soon as you
fill the debt all is restored. I use a revolving credit card, this mean
i can use it after charged with money (ui use always this on all
internet shopping activities, so if somebody steal the number cannot
take my money, every time i charge only the cash needed). 

if somebody skip payments to LL, hold payments from customers and let
suspension expire losing account and sims owned isn't a victim, is
a thief... and i don't think is a fault of LL business model
___
Policies and (un)subscribe information available here:
http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev
Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges

Re: [opensource-dev] This is how Linden Lab treats it's customers...

[Gareth Nelson]

That's a serious bug in LL's business model - your account is safer as
a basic, since a premium account that quits paying means the account
is deleted (rather than merely downgraded).

On Sat, Aug 28, 2010 at 5:35 PM, Tigro Spottystripes
 wrote:
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> Hash: SHA512
>
> btw, if you're considering changing your account from premium to basic,
> be sure to pay any money you own to LL and then downgrade your account
> thru the site, do not just stop paying, if you stop paying them while
> still being a premium they will wipe out all your account's data,
> inventory L$ balance etc (i've seen some people that had the
> misconception that to downgrade all you had to do was stop sending money
> to LL, the ones that didn't got set straight in time lost everything)
>
> On 28/8/2010 13:01, mysticaldem...@xrgrid.com wrote:
>> I don’t think anyone disagrees with.  The problem is you can’t get a
>> homestead unless you have a full sim already and so you need to rent
>> from someone and this puts you dependent on someone else which is
>> frustrating for people.  So to log in one day and see all your hard work
>> returned to your lost and found isn’t a pleasant experience and seems SL
>> if they are serious about the user experience would have some better
>> ways to handle this.
>>
>>
>>
>> I don’t know if you rent from someone else if you can do a restore of
>> your region to the new location.  But seems like there are ways to make
>> this better if not just let people rent homesteads which to me I believe
>> would be a huge market.
>>
>>
>>
>> Anyway this whole subject is off topic for this mailing list and
>> probably should be on the SL forums.
>>
>>
>>
>> M.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> 
>>
>> *From:* opensource-dev-boun...@lists.secondlife.com
>> [mailto:opensource-dev-boun...@lists.secondlife.com] *On Behalf Of *Joel
>> Foner
>> *Sent:* Saturday, August 28, 2010 11:49 AM
>> *To:* Aleric Inglewood
>> *Cc:* opensource-dev
>> *Subject:* Re: [opensource-dev] This is how Linden Lab treats it's
>> customers...
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>     After being a paying customer for more than a year, renting a homestead,
>>     and thus paying Linden Lab ~ USD$ 1000 or so ... they just take the sim
>>     offline, with no opening to even discuss the matter.
>>
>>     Why? Because of something I did? No. The reason is that Linden
>>     Lab isn't interested in the "little people". Unless you have a FULL
>>     sim of USD$ 300 per month, you don't count.
>>
>>
>>
>> There is a simple answer for this. You are the customer of your landlord
>> in this case, not Linden Lab. Yes, you have a Second Life account, but
>> you are not renting your land from Linden Lab. You are renting your land
>> from another avatar in Second Life. Linden Lab is not a party to your
>> decision to rent... so why are they accountable if some other avatar
>> bails out and decides to "level their city block"? If the landlord
>> decided to stop renting, boot everyone off and re-terraform the region
>> for some completely different use, would you think Linden Lab would have
>> any responsibility for stopping that or somehow compensating you? It's
>> the landlord's land, and they can do anything with it they choose to,
>> including shut it down, leave, take it over from the renters, or shut it
>> down and let no one else in at all.
>>
>>
>>
>> Joel
>>
>>
>>
>> ___
>> Policies and (un)subscribe information available here:
>> http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev
>> Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting 
>> privileges
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
> Version: GnuPG v2.0.14 (MingW32)
> Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/
>
> iEYEAREKAAYFAkx5Os0ACgkQ8ZFfSrFHsmWNbQCeL35cNo4MkluDPXFx2+ZGb3z3
> G/UAn31zdQ2HEKMoRzbp+3CYV/C+O5CM
> =pGVm
> -END PGP SIGNATURE-
> ___
> Policies and (un)subscribe information available here:
> http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev
> Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges
>



-- 
“Lanie, I’m going to print more printers. Lots more printers. One for
everyone. That’s worth going to jail for. That’s worth anything.” -
Printcrime by Cory Doctrow

Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments.
See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html
___
Policies and (un)subscribe information available here:
http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev
Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges

Re: [opensource-dev] This is how Linden Lab treats it's customers...

[Brian McGroarty]

On Sat, Aug 28, 2010 at 5:50 AM, Aleric Inglewood <
aleric.inglew...@gmail.com> wrote:

>
> So one day I have a home, my own island where I live and
> did built and work on for more than a year. Which is full of
> objects of my dead partner that I can use but not Take Back
> (no help from LInden Lab here either of course), and the
> next -poof- offline. Not because *I* didn't pay, but because
> LInden Lab doesn't give a shit about me, or my money.
> Or it's customers.
>

I hate that this has happened, and I don't know the reason why the full
region prerequisite exists so I can't say if it makes sense.

I don't think you've exhausted the concierge options, though. I'll follow up
off-list, given that this is definitely way off topic.

-- 
Brian McGroarty | Linden Lab
Sent from my Newton MP2100 via acoustic coupler
___
Policies and (un)subscribe information available here:
http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev
Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges

Re: [opensource-dev] This is how Linden Lab treats it's customers...

[Tigro Spottystripes]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA512

btw, if you're considering changing your account from premium to basic,
be sure to pay any money you own to LL and then downgrade your account
thru the site, do not just stop paying, if you stop paying them while
still being a premium they will wipe out all your account's data,
inventory L$ balance etc (i've seen some people that had the
misconception that to downgrade all you had to do was stop sending money
to LL, the ones that didn't got set straight in time lost everything)

On 28/8/2010 13:01, mysticaldem...@xrgrid.com wrote:
> I don’t think anyone disagrees with.  The problem is you can’t get a
> homestead unless you have a full sim already and so you need to rent
> from someone and this puts you dependent on someone else which is
> frustrating for people.  So to log in one day and see all your hard work
> returned to your lost and found isn’t a pleasant experience and seems SL
> if they are serious about the user experience would have some better
> ways to handle this.
> 
>  
> 
> I don’t know if you rent from someone else if you can do a restore of
> your region to the new location.  But seems like there are ways to make
> this better if not just let people rent homesteads which to me I believe
> would be a huge market.
> 
>  
> 
> Anyway this whole subject is off topic for this mailing list and
> probably should be on the SL forums.
> 
>  
> 
> M.
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
> 
> 
> *From:* opensource-dev-boun...@lists.secondlife.com
> [mailto:opensource-dev-boun...@lists.secondlife.com] *On Behalf Of *Joel
> Foner
> *Sent:* Saturday, August 28, 2010 11:49 AM
> *To:* Aleric Inglewood
> *Cc:* opensource-dev
> *Subject:* Re: [opensource-dev] This is how Linden Lab treats it's
> customers...
> 
>  
> 
> 
> After being a paying customer for more than a year, renting a homestead,
> and thus paying Linden Lab ~ USD$ 1000 or so ... they just take the sim
> offline, with no opening to even discuss the matter.
> 
> Why? Because of something I did? No. The reason is that Linden
> Lab isn't interested in the "little people". Unless you have a FULL
> sim of USD$ 300 per month, you don't count. 
> 
>  
> 
> There is a simple answer for this. You are the customer of your landlord
> in this case, not Linden Lab. Yes, you have a Second Life account, but
> you are not renting your land from Linden Lab. You are renting your land
> from another avatar in Second Life. Linden Lab is not a party to your
> decision to rent... so why are they accountable if some other avatar
> bails out and decides to "level their city block"? If the landlord
> decided to stop renting, boot everyone off and re-terraform the region
> for some completely different use, would you think Linden Lab would have
> any responsibility for stopping that or somehow compensating you? It's
> the landlord's land, and they can do anything with it they choose to,
> including shut it down, leave, take it over from the renters, or shut it
> down and let no one else in at all.
> 
>  
> 
> Joel
> 
> 
> 
> ___
> Policies and (un)subscribe information available here:
> http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev
> Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges
-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: GnuPG v2.0.14 (MingW32)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/

iEYEAREKAAYFAkx5Os0ACgkQ8ZFfSrFHsmWNbQCeL35cNo4MkluDPXFx2+ZGb3z3
G/UAn31zdQ2HEKMoRzbp+3CYV/C+O5CM
=pGVm
-END PGP SIGNATURE-
___
Policies and (un)subscribe information available here:
http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev
Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges

Re: [opensource-dev] This is how Linden Lab treats it's customers...

[mysticaldemina]

I don't think anyone disagrees with.  The problem is you can't get a
homestead unless you have a full sim already and so you need to rent from
someone and this puts you dependent on someone else which is frustrating for
people.  So to log in one day and see all your hard work returned to your
lost and found isn't a pleasant experience and seems SL if they are serious
about the user experience would have some better ways to handle this.

 

I don't know if you rent from someone else if you can do a restore of your
region to the new location.  But seems like there are ways to make this
better if not just let people rent homesteads which to me I believe would be
a huge market.

 

Anyway this whole subject is off topic for this mailing list and probably
should be on the SL forums.

 

M.

 

 

  _  

From: opensource-dev-boun...@lists.secondlife.com
[mailto:opensource-dev-boun...@lists.secondlife.com] On Behalf Of Joel Foner
Sent: Saturday, August 28, 2010 11:49 AM
To: Aleric Inglewood
Cc: opensource-dev
Subject: Re: [opensource-dev] This is how Linden Lab treats it's
customers...

 


After being a paying customer for more than a year, renting a homestead,
and thus paying Linden Lab ~ USD$ 1000 or so ... they just take the sim
offline, with no opening to even discuss the matter.

Why? Because of something I did? No. The reason is that Linden
Lab isn't interested in the "little people". Unless you have a FULL
sim of USD$ 300 per month, you don't count. 

 

There is a simple answer for this. You are the customer of your landlord in
this case, not Linden Lab. Yes, you have a Second Life account, but you are
not renting your land from Linden Lab. You are renting your land from
another avatar in Second Life. Linden Lab is not a party to your decision to
rent... so why are they accountable if some other avatar bails out and
decides to "level their city block"? If the landlord decided to stop
renting, boot everyone off and re-terraform the region for some completely
different use, would you think Linden Lab would have any responsibility for
stopping that or somehow compensating you? It's the landlord's land, and
they can do anything with it they choose to, including shut it down, leave,
take it over from the renters, or shut it down and let no one else in at
all.

 

Joel

___
Policies and (un)subscribe information available here:
http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev
Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges

Re: [opensource-dev] This is how Linden Lab treats it's customers...

[Joel Foner]

Quick note... if the $100 a month, if this is rent, is not being paid to
Linden Lab if you're renting. It's paid to another avatar... different
picture... It seems to me the slap in the face is a landlord who does this
to a large number of tenants without notice, actually.

Joel (also going back to lurking)

On Sat, Aug 28, 2010 at 11:42 AM, Darmath  wrote:

>  On 29/08/2010 1:23 AM, Gareth Nelson wrote:
> >   and pointing out that LL have no contract with tenants of
> > rental regions - tenants of such regions are thus not customers.
> True. But a premium account holder is a customer of LL. "And to say well
> we dont want you $100 a month because your not a full sim owner" is a
> slap in the face, period. FWIW i'm a premium account holder...whose now
> returning to lurking.
> ___
> Policies and (un)subscribe information available here:
> http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev
> Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting
> privileges
>
___
Policies and (un)subscribe information available here:
http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev
Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges

Re: [opensource-dev] This is how Linden Lab treats it's customers...

[Joel Foner]

>
>
> After being a paying customer for more than a year, renting a homestead,
> and thus paying Linden Lab ~ USD$ 1000 or so ... they just take the sim
> offline, with no opening to even discuss the matter.
>
> Why? Because of something I did? No. The reason is that Linden
> Lab isn't interested in the "little people". Unless you have a FULL
> sim of USD$ 300 per month, you don't count.


There is a simple answer for this. You are the customer of your landlord in
this case, not Linden Lab. Yes, you have a Second Life account, but you are
not renting your land from Linden Lab. You are renting your land from
another avatar in Second Life. Linden Lab is not a party to your decision to
rent... so why are they accountable if some other avatar bails out and
decides to "level their city block"? If the landlord decided to stop
renting, boot everyone off and re-terraform the region for some completely
different use, would you think Linden Lab would have any responsibility for
stopping that or somehow compensating you? It's the landlord's land, and
they can do anything with it they choose to, including shut it down, leave,
take it over from the renters, or shut it down and let no one else in at
all.

Joel
___
Policies and (un)subscribe information available here:
http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev
Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges

Re: [opensource-dev] This is how Linden Lab treats it's customers...

[Darmath]

  On 29/08/2010 1:23 AM, Gareth Nelson wrote:
>   and pointing out that LL have no contract with tenants of
> rental regions - tenants of such regions are thus not customers.
True. But a premium account holder is a customer of LL. "And to say well 
we dont want you $100 a month because your not a full sim owner" is a 
slap in the face, period. FWIW i'm a premium account holder...whose now 
returning to lurking.
___
Policies and (un)subscribe information available here:
http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev
Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges

Re: [opensource-dev] This is how Linden Lab treats it's customers...

[Gareth Nelson]

One way to fix this "problem" is for LL to enable tenants of
rented-out sims to directly take over payment of tier.
But of course, if any one tenant quits paying, there's still the risk
that the sim tier won't be paid, and I doubt anyone thinks LL should
offer the sim for free.

I did already reply offlist to this pointing out how offtopic it is
though, and pointing out that LL have no contract with tenants of
rental regions - tenants of such regions are thus not customers.

On Sat, Aug 28, 2010 at 4:16 PM, Stickman  wrote:
>> It makes
>> no sense whatsoever.
>
> It makes some sense. It promotes a reseller market, creating an
> economy that otherwise wouldn't exist by requiring a middleman.
>
> I won't say I agree with it, but I don't really consider it something
> I need to make a strong decision on.
>
>> Aleric's gripe is that if LL didnt have the policy in place she/he would
>> have paid their money happily directly to LL with the consequence that
>> he/she would still be on the land that they had "occupied" for over a
>> yr, had much invested in and had some sentimental value to them.
>
> Aleric is not the first person to have suffered land being swept out
> from under them. I've had more than one set of friends that almost had
> it happen to them.
>
>> That you feel that this doesn't actually disrespect users or customers
>> of LL's is a sad indictment on your logical abilities.
>
> This is a problem that LL should have addressed already, yes. One way
> it can be addressed by providing resellers, or those that purchase
> land from resellers, with more information. Suggesting a contract
> template between renter and reseller to protect each with some level
> of protection might also be a good idea. A legal recourse to follow
> when someone breaks their contract, either landlord or renter, is
> better than impotence.
>
> I don't know why LL doesn't sell Homesteads to the average resident.
> It might be intentional, it might be a legacy policy that hasn't been
> reevaluated and cleared up yet. But it's still possible to work within
> the system and not get screwed over. There just needs to be more
> education about the existing system.
>
> My heart goes out to Aleric, and I hope this can be resolved
> positively. It won't be resolved on this list, though.
>
> Jack Linden's office hours might be the best place to bring it up (I'm
> not sure). Thursdays at 11am.
> http://slurl.com/secondlife/Linden%20Estate%20Services/213/107/49
>
> Submitting a ticket asking for a deferral on the actual deletion of
> the sim ASAP is a good place to start.
>
> Finding a new "Homestead holder" and talking with the old reseller to
> get the sim transferred over is your best bet to salvage it. There's a
> US$100 or L$28000 fee to transfer, but it's better than losing it.
>
> http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Linden_Lab_Official:Private_Region_Transfer_FAQ
>
> Good luck.
>
> -Stickman
> ___
> Policies and (un)subscribe information available here:
> http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev
> Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges
>



-- 
“Lanie, I’m going to print more printers. Lots more printers. One for
everyone. That’s worth going to jail for. That’s worth anything.” -
Printcrime by Cory Doctrow

Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments.
See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html
___
Policies and (un)subscribe information available here:
http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev
Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges

Re: [opensource-dev] This is how Linden Lab treats it's customers...

[Stickman]

> It makes
> no sense whatsoever.

It makes some sense. It promotes a reseller market, creating an
economy that otherwise wouldn't exist by requiring a middleman.

I won't say I agree with it, but I don't really consider it something
I need to make a strong decision on.

> Aleric's gripe is that if LL didnt have the policy in place she/he would
> have paid their money happily directly to LL with the consequence that
> he/she would still be on the land that they had "occupied" for over a
> yr, had much invested in and had some sentimental value to them.

Aleric is not the first person to have suffered land being swept out
from under them. I've had more than one set of friends that almost had
it happen to them.

> That you feel that this doesn't actually disrespect users or customers
> of LL's is a sad indictment on your logical abilities.

This is a problem that LL should have addressed already, yes. One way
it can be addressed by providing resellers, or those that purchase
land from resellers, with more information. Suggesting a contract
template between renter and reseller to protect each with some level
of protection might also be a good idea. A legal recourse to follow
when someone breaks their contract, either landlord or renter, is
better than impotence.

I don't know why LL doesn't sell Homesteads to the average resident.
It might be intentional, it might be a legacy policy that hasn't been
reevaluated and cleared up yet. But it's still possible to work within
the system and not get screwed over. There just needs to be more
education about the existing system.

My heart goes out to Aleric, and I hope this can be resolved
positively. It won't be resolved on this list, though.

Jack Linden's office hours might be the best place to bring it up (I'm
not sure). Thursdays at 11am.
http://slurl.com/secondlife/Linden%20Estate%20Services/213/107/49

Submitting a ticket asking for a deferral on the actual deletion of
the sim ASAP is a good place to start.

Finding a new "Homestead holder" and talking with the old reseller to
get the sim transferred over is your best bet to salvage it. There's a
US$100 or L$28000 fee to transfer, but it's better than losing it.

http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Linden_Lab_Official:Private_Region_Transfer_FAQ

Good luck.

-Stickman
___
Policies and (un)subscribe information available here:
http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev
Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges

Re: [opensource-dev] This is how Linden Lab treats it's customers...

[Darmath]

  You clearly missed the entire point of Aleric's post to this list. 
Either it was done deliberately or...

The pure simple fact is that Aleric feels aggrieved, and I feel some 
sympathy for him/her on this point,
that due to an entirely elitist business policy he/she now has lost 
"his/her" land. I say elitist because the policy is in effect this:
LL's is willing to accept the homestead price (~$100USD, i'm not sure) 
from someone who can afford ~$300 USD a month. Yet
wont accept that same some from someone who can't afford that.  It makes 
no sense whatsoever. Indeed i'd argue that it would almost
contravene discrimination laws here in my country. What is the price of 
a homstead from someone who can't afford a full sim not as good as from
someone who can afford a full sim? The last time i looked $100.00 USD 
was $100.00 USD irrespective of who paid it. I guess not in the eyes of 
LL's.

Aleric's gripe is that if LL didnt have the policy in place she/he would 
have paid their money happily directly to LL with the consequence that
he/she would still be on the land that they had "occupied" for over a 
yr, had much invested in and had some sentimental value to them.

That you feel that this doesn't actually disrespect users or customers 
of LL's is a sad indictment on your logical abilities.
On 29/08/2010 12:18 AM, Tigro Spottystripes wrote:
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> Hash: SHA512
>
> The money you paid LL wasn't for the sim, it was for the L$  you gave to
> the guy that actually paid real dollars for sim directly to LL. You gave
> away your game money, it's not LL's fault that you choose to do busyness
> with someone that couldn't be trusted. Did you had a contract where the
> guy promised to keep offering stuff for you to sublocate from him? I
> wouldn't expect you do, and i'm pretty sure you don't have a contract
> where LL promises to fill in for your landlord if he goes away.
>
> There are situations where LL disrespects their customers, but your
> landlord deciding to not rent a sim from LL anymore certainly isn't one
> of them.
>
> On 28/8/2010 09:50, Aleric Inglewood wrote:
>> I know this is "off topic", so I'll keep it as short as possible.
>>
>> After being a paying customer for more than a year, renting a homestead,
>> and thus paying Linden Lab ~ USD$ 1000 or so ... they just take the sim
>> offline, with no opening to even discuss the matter.
>>
>> Why? Because of something I did? No. The reason is that Linden
>> Lab isn't interested in the "little people". Unless you have a FULL
>> sim of USD$ 300 per month, you don't count. Obviously I can't
>> afford that; so us little people have to resort renting homesteads
>> from strangers who own a full sim. The owner of that full sim
>> was paid by everyone who rented a homestead from him,
>> every month, in time. But one day he decided he wanted to quit.
>> Apparently he stopped paying Linden Lab, so they took all "his"
>> sims offline.
>>
>> Now what is wrong in this picture? Should the 50 or so under-
>> renters be punished because of one? I had absolutely nothing
>> to do with this guy, except that he needed to own the homestead
>> in name, because of the completely nonsensical "rule" that
>> Linden Lab doesn't want to make homesteads available
>> directly. Well, fuck you too Linden Lab.
>>
>> So one day I have a home, my own island where I live and
>> did built and work on for more than a year. Which is full of
>> objects of my dead partner that I can use but not Take Back
>> (no help from LInden Lab here either of course), and the
>> next -poof- offline. Not because *I* didn't pay, but because
>> LInden Lab doesn't give a shit about me, or my money.
>> Or it's customers.
>> ___
>> Policies and (un)subscribe information available here:
>> http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev
>> Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting 
>> privileges
>>
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
> Version: GnuPG v2.0.14 (MingW32)
> Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/
>
> iEYEAREKAAYFAkx5GsQACgkQ8ZFfSrFHsmWPYQCfXdPzlhNp3/9l+3adHu0+5t6g
> nOQAn2vAhAc/qDxb1khzZet6fgQ/db1H
> =DvER
> -END PGP SIGNATURE-
> ___
> Policies and (un)subscribe information available here:
> http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev
> Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges
>
>
>

___
Policies and (un)subscribe information available here:
http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev
Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges

Re: [opensource-dev] This is how Linden Lab treats it's customers...

[Tigro Spottystripes]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA512

The money you paid LL wasn't for the sim, it was for the L$  you gave to
the guy that actually paid real dollars for sim directly to LL. You gave
away your game money, it's not LL's fault that you choose to do busyness
with someone that couldn't be trusted. Did you had a contract where the
guy promised to keep offering stuff for you to sublocate from him? I
wouldn't expect you do, and i'm pretty sure you don't have a contract
where LL promises to fill in for your landlord if he goes away.

There are situations where LL disrespects their customers, but your
landlord deciding to not rent a sim from LL anymore certainly isn't one
of them.

On 28/8/2010 09:50, Aleric Inglewood wrote:
> I know this is "off topic", so I'll keep it as short as possible.
> 
> After being a paying customer for more than a year, renting a homestead,
> and thus paying Linden Lab ~ USD$ 1000 or so ... they just take the sim
> offline, with no opening to even discuss the matter.
> 
> Why? Because of something I did? No. The reason is that Linden
> Lab isn't interested in the "little people". Unless you have a FULL
> sim of USD$ 300 per month, you don't count. Obviously I can't
> afford that; so us little people have to resort renting homesteads
> from strangers who own a full sim. The owner of that full sim
> was paid by everyone who rented a homestead from him,
> every month, in time. But one day he decided he wanted to quit.
> Apparently he stopped paying Linden Lab, so they took all "his"
> sims offline.
> 
> Now what is wrong in this picture? Should the 50 or so under-
> renters be punished because of one? I had absolutely nothing
> to do with this guy, except that he needed to own the homestead
> in name, because of the completely nonsensical "rule" that
> Linden Lab doesn't want to make homesteads available
> directly. Well, fuck you too Linden Lab.
> 
> So one day I have a home, my own island where I live and
> did built and work on for more than a year. Which is full of
> objects of my dead partner that I can use but not Take Back
> (no help from LInden Lab here either of course), and the
> next -poof- offline. Not because *I* didn't pay, but because
> LInden Lab doesn't give a shit about me, or my money.
> Or it's customers.
> ___
> Policies and (un)subscribe information available here:
> http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev
> Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges
> 
-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: GnuPG v2.0.14 (MingW32)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/

iEYEAREKAAYFAkx5GsQACgkQ8ZFfSrFHsmWPYQCfXdPzlhNp3/9l+3adHu0+5t6g
nOQAn2vAhAc/qDxb1khzZet6fgQ/db1H
=DvER
-END PGP SIGNATURE-
___
Policies and (un)subscribe information available here:
http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev
Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges

Re: [opensource-dev] Product Backlog addition request: Build fixes for 64bit out-of-source

[Boroondas Gupte]

 On 08/26/2010 02:37 PM, Boroondas Gupte wrote:
> As some of you might know, I've been working on collecting patches and
> changesets on pJIRA and SVN that allow me to build
> lindenlab/viewer-development
>  with the settings
> above. I've applied them to my repository at
> http://bitbucket.org/boroondas/snowstorm-development , ported/modified
> them where necessary. I also had Techwolf port some of his own
> patches. (Available on his repo
> . Thanks Techwolf!)
>
> The final result, merged with the many changes that came from upstream
> meanwhile, can be found at the current tip (i.e. rev a0292ef8)
> 
> of my repository.
Yesterday, I had to realize that hg was using my graphical merge tool of
choice (meld ) differently than I expected
(and different from what |git mergetool| does with it)^[1 <#fn1>] . Thus
most merges where I manually resolved conflicts with meld are probably
faulty. If I'm lucky, only doc/contributions.txt is affected, but I'm
not sure.

To avoid others cloning the faulty merges and applying new commits ontop
of them, I've moved my repository to boroondas/snowstorm-development
DON'T USE THIS REPO! Faulty merges!
.
If you already have pulled or cloned from
bitbucket.org/boroondas/snowstorm-development before that, please
refrain to base any work on my merges or be prepared to having to rebase
it. I'll follow up with a new clone at the original location of my
repository soon and will hopefully get the merges right this time.
(KDiff3, with the proper configuration
, seems to augment hg better
than meld, but I'm still new to it so have to be careful.) While I'm at
it, I might also re-do some of the non-merge commits, so for now it
might be saver to base nothing on /any/ commits by me.

Sorry for the inconveniences and please bear with me as I learn all this
stuff.

As the Product Backlog inclusion is supposed to happen even before any
work on the issue is started, I hope it can move forward regardless.

Regards,
Boroondas


^[1 <#fn1back>] |HGMERGE=meld hg resolve --all| displays three text
fields side-by-side, from left to right: local, base, other. This seemed
very similar to |git mergetool| with meld, which has from left to right:
local, pre-merged, other.|| Thus I assumed that, as with |git mergetool|
with meld, the edited middle field would serve as the merge result, when
with hg, it actually  was the
edited local version in the left-most field. When one edits all 3 fields
in meld until they're equal and then saves them, this doesn't matter,
but I didn't do that in all cases.
___
Policies and (un)subscribe information available here:
http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev
Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges