Re: discovery about nudge value
Ooh 'ello 'ello, this would be enough to get me back into Pro Tools for tightening up instruments again I think. Thanks for sharing as always. On 9/26/14, Kevin Reeves reeves...@gmail.com wrote: Thanks for this. This is a huge one for me as well, as I like to work in increments of 20 ticks or so when crossfading edits. Thanks man. Kevin On Sep 26, 2014, at 12:27 PM, Slau Halatyn slauhala...@gmail.com wrote: Folks, One of the features for which I've been campaigning on the accessibility with on the Pro Tools front has been the nudge value field. In earlier versions of Pro Tools, it was not specifically accessible but one could at least press the button, type a value, press Return and at least the custom field was entered and one could go about their business with the new nudge value. Now, if you don't know why a custom nudge value is important, never mind for now and trust me when I say that it'll save your ass at some point, guaranteed. well, in Pro Tools 11, the interface changed a bit and now at least we could see the Nudge Controls button which popped up the format selection and default values. Thing is, now we couldn't enter the custom value. I submitted a bug report and nothing seemed to change because other items like the MIDI Event List took precedence, understandably. Well, only yesterday, I stumbled upon what I can only call a discovery, for lack of a better word because it was truly hidden. Unfortunately, a bit of a misnomer was incorporated when one of the programmers worked on the nudge and grid controls. In the edit window, there is a Grid/Nudge cluster. That naming convention was inherited from the initial work of PT accessibility in version 8. When interacting, you find 3 items labeled Show Grid Lines (which is either selected or not), Grid Controls button and Nudge Controls button Clicking on the first button toggles its state of either showing or not showing grid lines in the timeline. Clicking either of the two remaining buttons pops up a list of formats and default values as mentioned earlier. Yesterday, as I was making a macro to double-click on the nudge value field to at least be able to once again enter custom nudge values, I needed to quickly navigate to the Nudge Control button and so I brought up the Item Chooser list and typed n u d g e. Surprisingly, the list contained several items rather than just the one I was expecting. It contained a text field labeled Nudge and a numeric field labeled Nudge value. I had never seen this before and was stunned. To my astonishment, having selected the nudge value field, I purposely stopped interacting with the control to see where it was nested. To my surprise, it was nested in the Nudge Controls button. Well, of course, a VoiceOver user would never think to interact with a button because that's not the function of a button. In fact, upon retrying with another session, simply navigating to the Nudge Controls button and interacting with it simply interacts with the title of the button itself rather than its alleged contents. Bringing up the Item Chooser, however, indeed exposes the hidden controls. Further, once accessed, interacting and exiting interaction with the button seems to traverse the levels repeatedly. Bottom line is, if you need to type a custom nudge value, and I promise you, you will at some point, use the Item Chooser to get to the Nudge Value numeric field, click once and type the custom value, hit Return and be on your way. This is an issue of nomenclature mostly but also the non-standard manner in which a control was defined. It's really not a button but a group of controls or a cluster, if you will. So, it's confusing until you know what it truly is. I'm explaining this so that, when others ask, more people on the list know about this quirk. That said, I'm relieved that the issue of access to the nudge value was addressed, albeit in a non-standard way, because it's truly one of the quality-of-life issues that kept me from moving to Pro Tools 11 full time. For me, this was a big one. There are a few others that are being addressed in beta that will be resolved soon, I'm sure. Anyway, just sharing the info. Slau -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Pro Tools Accessibility group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to ptaccess+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Pro Tools Accessibility group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to ptaccess+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Pro Tools Accessibility group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop
Re: discovery about nudge value
Hi, Slau. Is fact: protools is advancing to a fully accessible soft. but in my opinion, with the time line not accessible, We're lossing at least 50% of this powerful tool. Yes, there are lots of sortcuts that made this tings in a diferent way. but has the hability to drag and dropp, would be a big jump. I hope in pt12 we've good news on this. best, Juan. -Original Message- From: Slau Halatyn Sent: Friday, September 26, 2014 1:27 PM To: ptaccess@googlegroups.com Subject: discovery about nudge value Folks, One of the features for which I've been campaigning on the accessibility with on the Pro Tools front has been the nudge value field. In earlier versions of Pro Tools, it was not specifically accessible but one could at least press the button, type a value, press Return and at least the custom field was entered and one could go about their business with the new nudge value. Now, if you don't know why a custom nudge value is important, never mind for now and trust me when I say that it'll save your ass at some point, guaranteed. well, in Pro Tools 11, the interface changed a bit and now at least we could see the Nudge Controls button which popped up the format selection and default values. Thing is, now we couldn't enter the custom value. I submitted a bug report and nothing seemed to change because other items like the MIDI Event List took precedence, understandably. Well, only yesterday, I stumbled upon what I can only call a discovery, for lack of a better word because it was truly hidden. Unfortunately, a bit of a misnomer was incorporated when one of the programmers worked on the nudge and grid controls. In the edit window, there is a Grid/Nudge cluster. That naming convention was inherited from the initial work of PT accessibility in version 8. When interacting, you find 3 items labeled Show Grid Lines (which is either selected or not), Grid Controls button and Nudge Controls button Clicking on the first button toggles its state of either showing or not showing grid lines in the timeline. Clicking either of the two remaining buttons pops up a list of formats and default values as mentioned earlier. Yesterday, as I was making a macro to double-click on the nudge value field to at least be able to once again enter custom nudge values, I needed to quickly navigate to the Nudge Control button and so I brought up the Item Chooser list and typed n u d g e. Surprisingly, the list contained several items rather than just the one I was expecting. It contained a text field labeled Nudge and a numeric field labeled Nudge value. I had never seen this before and was stunned. To my astonishment, having selected the nudge value field, I purposely stopped interacting with the control to see where it was nested. To my surprise, it was nested in the Nudge Controls button. Well, of course, a VoiceOver user would never think to interact with a button because that's not the function of a button. In fact, upon retrying with another session, simply navigating to the Nudge Controls button and interacting with it simply interacts with the title of the button itself rather than its alleged contents. Bringing up the Item Chooser, however, indeed exposes the hidden controls. Further, once accessed, interacting and exiting interaction with the button seems to traverse the levels repeatedly. Bottom line is, if you need to type a custom nudge value, and I promise you, you will at some point, use the Item Chooser to get to the Nudge Value numeric field, click once and type the custom value, hit Return and be on your way. This is an issue of nomenclature mostly but also the non-standard manner in which a control was defined. It's really not a button but a group of controls or a cluster, if you will. So, it's confusing until you know what it truly is. I'm explaining this so that, when others ask, more people on the list know about this quirk. That said, I'm relieved that the issue of access to the nudge value was addressed, albeit in a non-standard way, because it's truly one of the quality-of-life issues that kept me from moving to Pro Tools 11 full time. For me, this was a big one. There are a few others that are being addressed in beta that will be resolved soon, I'm sure. Anyway, just sharing the info. Slau -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Pro Tools Accessibility group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to ptaccess+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Pro Tools Accessibility group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to ptaccess+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: discovery about nudge value
Slau, sorry for my lack of knoledge. But what's the way to drag and drop from the clip list? When I talked about drag and drop, I'm reffering to your second part of your message. Best, Juan. -Original Message- From: Slau Halatyn Sent: Saturday, September 27, 2014 3:19 PM To: ptaccess@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: discovery about nudge value Hi Juan, I'm sorry but I don't agree with you. Drag and drop is just something a blind person cannot do. How would you propose this would work? Cut, copy and paste is perfectly fine in addition to nudging and spotting. What can't you do in the timeline with drag and drop that you can't do with the commands I mentioned? Now, if you're talking about dragging from the Clips list into a timeline, then yes, there needs to be a more elegant solution th an what we currently have. I can see that possibly being implemented in the future but that's a matter of introducing a new way, or at least an alternative way, of performing specific actions. This would take more resources and more supporting arguments. Slau On Sep 27, 2014, at 1:24 PM, Juan Pablo jpcula...@gmail.com wrote: Hi, Slau. Is fact: protools is advancing to a fully accessible soft. but in my opinion, with the time line not accessible, We're lossing at least 50% of this powerful tool. Yes, there are lots of sortcuts that made this tings in a diferent way. but has the hability to drag and dropp, would be a big jump. I hope in pt12 we've good news on this. best, Juan. -Original Message- From: Slau Halatyn Sent: Friday, September 26, 2014 1:27 PM To: ptaccess@googlegroups.com Subject: discovery about nudge value Folks, One of the features for which I've been campaigning on the accessibility with on the Pro Tools front has been the nudge value field. In earlier versions of Pro Tools, it was not specifically accessible but one could at least press the button, type a value, press Return and at least the custom field was entered and one could go about their business with the new nudge value. Now, if you don't know why a custom nudge value is important, never mind for now and trust me when I say that it'll save your ass at some point, guaranteed. well, in Pro Tools 11, the interface changed a bit and now at least we could see the Nudge Controls button which popped up the format selection and default values. Thing is, now we couldn't enter the custom value. I submitted a bug report and nothing seemed to change because other items like the MIDI Event List took precedence, understandably. Well, only yesterday, I stumbled upon what I can only call a discovery, for lack of a better word because it was truly hidden. Unfortunately, a bit of a misnomer was incorporated when one of the programmers worked on the nudge and grid controls. In the edit window, there is a Grid/Nudge cluster. That naming convention was inherited from the initial work of PT accessibility in version 8. When interacting, you find 3 items labeled Show Grid Lines (which is either selected or not), Grid Controls button and Nudge Controls button Clicking on the first button toggles its state of either showing or not showing grid lines in the timeline. Clicking either of the two remaining buttons pops up a list of formats and default values as mentioned earlier. Yesterday, as I was making a macro to double-click on the nudge value field to at least be able to once again enter custom nudge values, I needed to quickly navigate to the Nudge Control button and so I brought up the Item Chooser list and typed n u d g e. Surprisingly, the list contained several items rather than just the one I was expecting. It contained a text field labeled Nudge and a numeric field labeled Nudge value. I had never seen this before and was stunned. To my astonishment, having selected the nudge value field, I purposely stopped interacting with the control to see where it was nested. To my surprise, it was nested in the Nudge Controls button. Well, of course, a VoiceOver user would never think to interact with a button because that's not the function of a button. In fact, upon retrying with another session, simply navigating to the Nudge Controls button and interacting with it simply interacts with the title of the button itself rather than its alleged contents. Bringing up the Item Chooser, however, indeed exposes the hidden controls. Further, once accessed, interacting and exiting interaction with the button seems to traverse the levels repeatedly. Bottom line is, if you need to type a custom nudge value, and I promise you, you will at some point, use the Item Chooser to get to the Nudge Value numeric field, click once and type the custom value, hit Return and be on your way. This is an issue of nomenclature mostly but also the non-standard manner in which a control was defined. It's really not a button but a group of controls or a cluster, if you will. So, it's confusing until you know what
Re: discovery about nudge value
How about spell check? YMMV On Sep 27, 2014, at 2:24 PM, Juan Pablo wrote: Slau, sorry for my lack of knoledge. But what's the way to drag and drop from the clip list? When I talked about drag and drop, I'm reffering to your second part of your message. Best, Juan. -Original Message- From: Slau Halatyn Sent: Saturday, September 27, 2014 3:19 PM To: ptaccess@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: discovery about nudge value Hi Juan, I'm sorry but I don't agree with you. Drag and drop is just something a blind person cannot do. How would you propose this would work? Cut, copy and paste is perfectly fine in addition to nudging and spotting. What can't you do in the timeline with drag and drop that you can't do with the commands I mentioned? Now, if you're talking about dragging from the Clips list into a timeline, then yes, there needs to be a more elegant solution th an what we currently have. I can see that possibly being implemented in the future but that's a matter of introducing a new way, or at least an alternative way, of performing specific actions. This would take more resources and more supporting arguments. Slau On Sep 27, 2014, at 1:24 PM, Juan Pablo jpcula...@gmail.com wrote: Hi, Slau. Is fact: protools is advancing to a fully accessible soft. but in my opinion, with the time line not accessible, We're lossing at least 50% of this powerful tool. Yes, there are lots of sortcuts that made this tings in a diferent way. but has the hability to drag and dropp, would be a big jump. I hope in pt12 we've good news on this. best, Juan. -Original Message- From: Slau Halatyn Sent: Friday, September 26, 2014 1:27 PM To: ptaccess@googlegroups.com Subject: discovery about nudge value Folks, One of the features for which I've been campaigning on the accessibility with on the Pro Tools front has been the nudge value field. In earlier versions of Pro Tools, it was not specifically accessible but one could at least press the button, type a value, press Return and at least the custom field was entered and one could go about their business with the new nudge value. Now, if you don't know why a custom nudge value is important, never mind for now and trust me when I say that it'll save your ass at some point, guaranteed. well, in Pro Tools 11, the interface changed a bit and now at least we could see the Nudge Controls button which popped up the format selection and default values. Thing is, now we couldn't enter the custom value. I submitted a bug report and nothing seemed to change because other items like the MIDI Event List took precedence, understandably. Well, only yesterday, I stumbled upon what I can only call a discovery, for lack of a better word because it was truly hidden. Unfortunately, a bit of a misnomer was incorporated when one of the programmers worked on the nudge and grid controls. In the edit window, there is a Grid/Nudge cluster. That naming convention was inherited from the initial work of PT accessibility in version 8. When interacting, you find 3 items labeled Show Grid Lines (which is either selected or not), Grid Controls button and Nudge Controls button Clicking on the first button toggles its state of either showing or not showing grid lines in the timeline. Clicking either of the two remaining buttons pops up a list of formats and default values as mentioned earlier. Yesterday, as I was making a macro to double-click on the nudge value field to at least be able to once again enter custom nudge values, I needed to quickly navigate to the Nudge Control button and so I brought up the Item Chooser list and typed n u d g e. Surprisingly, the list contained several items rather than just the one I was expecting. It contained a text field labeled Nudge and a numeric field labeled Nudge value. I had never seen this before and was stunned. To my astonishment, having selected the nudge value field, I purposely stopped interacting with the control to see where it was nested. To my surprise, it was nested in the Nudge Controls button. Well, of course, a VoiceOver user would never think to interact with a button because that's not the function of a button. In fact, upon retrying with another session, simply navigating to the Nudge Controls button and interacting with it simply interacts with the title of the button itself rather than its alleged contents. Bringing up the Item Chooser, however, indeed exposes the hidden controls. Further, once accessed, interacting and exiting interaction with the button seems to traverse the levels repeatedly. Bottom line is, if you need to type a custom nudge value, and I promise you, you will at some point, use the Item Chooser to get to the Nudge Value numeric field, click once and type the custom value, hit Return and be on your way. This is an issue of nomenclature mostly but also the non-standard
Re: discovery about nudge value
English is not my native language, Chuck. Thanks anyway for your unmeasurable contribution. best, Juan. -Original Message- From: CHUCK REICHEL Sent: Saturday, September 27, 2014 4:04 PM To: ptaccess@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: discovery about nudge value How about spell check? YMMV On Sep 27, 2014, at 2:24 PM, Juan Pablo wrote: Slau, sorry for my lack of knoledge. But what's the way to drag and drop from the clip list? When I talked about drag and drop, I'm reffering to your second part of your message. Best, Juan. -Original Message- From: Slau Halatyn Sent: Saturday, September 27, 2014 3:19 PM To: ptaccess@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: discovery about nudge value Hi Juan, I'm sorry but I don't agree with you. Drag and drop is just something a blind person cannot do. How would you propose this would work? Cut, copy and paste is perfectly fine in addition to nudging and spotting. What can't you do in the timeline with drag and drop that you can't do with the commands I mentioned? Now, if you're talking about dragging from the Clips list into a timeline, then yes, there needs to be a more elegant solution th an what we currently have. I can see that possibly being implemented in the future but that's a matter of introducing a new way, or at least an alternative way, of performing specific actions. This would take more resources and more supporting arguments. Slau On Sep 27, 2014, at 1:24 PM, Juan Pablo jpcula...@gmail.com wrote: Hi, Slau. Is fact: protools is advancing to a fully accessible soft. but in my opinion, with the time line not accessible, We're lossing at least 50% of this powerful tool. Yes, there are lots of sortcuts that made this tings in a diferent way. but has the hability to drag and dropp, would be a big jump. I hope in pt12 we've good news on this. best, Juan. -Original Message- From: Slau Halatyn Sent: Friday, September 26, 2014 1:27 PM To: ptaccess@googlegroups.com Subject: discovery about nudge value Folks, One of the features for which I've been campaigning on the accessibility with on the Pro Tools front has been the nudge value field. In earlier versions of Pro Tools, it was not specifically accessible but one could at least press the button, type a value, press Return and at least the custom field was entered and one could go about their business with the new nudge value. Now, if you don't know why a custom nudge value is important, never mind for now and trust me when I say that it'll save your ass at some point, guaranteed. well, in Pro Tools 11, the interface changed a bit and now at least we could see the Nudge Controls button which popped up the format selection and default values. Thing is, now we couldn't enter the custom value. I submitted a bug report and nothing seemed to change because other items like the MIDI Event List took precedence, understandably. Well, only yesterday, I stumbled upon what I can only call a discovery, for lack of a better word because it was truly hidden. Unfortunately, a bit of a misnomer was incorporated when one of the programmers worked on the nudge and grid controls. In the edit window, there is a Grid/Nudge cluster. That naming convention was inherited from the initial work of PT accessibility in version 8. When interacting, you find 3 items labeled Show Grid Lines (which is either selected or not), Grid Controls button and Nudge Controls button Clicking on the first button toggles its state of either showing or not showing grid lines in the timeline. Clicking either of the two remaining buttons pops up a list of formats and default values as mentioned earlier. Yesterday, as I was making a macro to double-click on the nudge value field to at least be able to once again enter custom nudge values, I needed to quickly navigate to the Nudge Control button and so I brought up the Item Chooser list and typed n u d g e. Surprisingly, the list contained several items rather than just the one I was expecting. It contained a text field labeled Nudge and a numeric field labeled Nudge value. I had never seen this before and was stunned. To my astonishment, having selected the nudge value field, I purposely stopped interacting with the control to see where it was nested. To my surprise, it was nested in the Nudge Controls button. Well, of course, a VoiceOver user would never think to interact with a button because that's not the function of a button. In fact, upon retrying with another session, simply navigating to the Nudge Controls button and interacting with it simply interacts with the title of the button itself rather than its alleged contents. Bringing up the Item Chooser, however, indeed exposes the hidden controls. Further, once accessed, interacting and exiting interaction with the button seems to traverse the levels repeatedly. Bottom line is, if you need to type a custom nudge value, and I promise you, you will at some point, use the Item
Re: discovery about nudge value
Hi Juan, I'm sorry, I'm a bit confused about your current question. I'm not sure exactly what you're trying to either ask or say. Dragging files from the Clip list (or Region list, as it is sometimes called) is certainly possible with VoiceOver but it's a multi-step process that is not at all efficient and, frankly, sometimes it just inexplicably doesn't seem to work. That type of drag and drop is somewhat different from dragging and dropping within the timeline. It's the action of dragging and dropping within the timeline that is essentially impossible for a blind user much in the same way throwing darts is not accessible. That doesn't mean a blind user couldn't conceivably throw a dart but what would be the point? If a blind person is told that the bullseye is exactly 5 and a half feet from the floor and exactly 8 and three quarter feet from the left wall and if the blind dart thrower could punch in a number to have the dart automatically be put at those coordinates, what's the point of throwing it? We have a few methods to edit and position regions with sample accuracy through keyboard shortcuts. A sighted user can zoom out of a timeline, see the region they've just highlighted, look down the timeline and see a space where the copied or dragged region should go. They can see the timeline and, in general terms see the approximate time where the region needs to go. They still have to position it more precisely once it's in the general vicinity. They have to zoom in, reposition the region, possibly use the grid or just audition the region in context to see if it's in the right place. Yes, there is an advantage to be able to see an overview of the timeline but that's something that a blind user will never have the ability to do. It's simply the nature of being blind, not being able to see what would take a thousand words to describe. Now, here's an example of a real advantage is for a sighted user: If you needed to select non-contiguous files from several tracks and move them all at the same time. For example if you had a region on track 1 from 3 seconds to 10 seconds, a region on track 2 from 4 seconds to 9 seconds and a region on track 3 from zero seconds to twenty seconds, a sighted user could use the grabber tool and select those three regions which appear on three tracks at different times by Shift-clicking with the grabber tool and, in one motion, drag them to a different part of the timeline or nudge them or whatever. Again this is something that a blind user simply cannot do. Let me say this, however, I've been using a digital audio workstation since 1994 and I've never had to perform the aforementioned action, ever, not even once. That doesn't mean that it might not come up some time in the future. I doubt it will but, if it does, I'll take more time and do each track separately. I hope that clarifies a few things. Best regards, Slau On Sep 27, 2014, at 2:24 PM, Juan Pablo jpcula...@gmail.com wrote: Slau, sorry for my lack of knoledge. But what's the way to drag and drop from the clip list? When I talked about drag and drop, I'm reffering to your second part of your message. Best, Juan. -Original Message- From: Slau Halatyn Sent: Saturday, September 27, 2014 3:19 PM To: ptaccess@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: discovery about nudge value Hi Juan, I'm sorry but I don't agree with you. Drag and drop is just something a blind person cannot do. How would you propose this would work? Cut, copy and paste is perfectly fine in addition to nudging and spotting. What can't you do in the timeline with drag and drop that you can't do with the commands I mentioned? Now, if you're talking about dragging from the Clips list into a timeline, then yes, there needs to be a more elegant solution th an what we currently have. I can see that possibly being implemented in the future but that's a matter of introducing a new way, or at least an alternative way, of performing specific actions. This would take more resources and more supporting arguments. Slau On Sep 27, 2014, at 1:24 PM, Juan Pablo jpcula...@gmail.com wrote: Hi, Slau. Is fact: protools is advancing to a fully accessible soft. but in my opinion, with the time line not accessible, We're lossing at least 50% of this powerful tool. Yes, there are lots of sortcuts that made this tings in a diferent way. but has the hability to drag and dropp, would be a big jump. I hope in pt12 we've good news on this. best, Juan. -Original Message- From: Slau Halatyn Sent: Friday, September 26, 2014 1:27 PM To: ptaccess@googlegroups.com Subject: discovery about nudge value Folks, One of the features for which I've been campaigning on the accessibility with on the Pro Tools front has been the nudge value field. In earlier versions of Pro Tools, it was not specifically accessible but one could at least press the button, type a value, press Return
Re: discovery about nudge value
Dear slau, thanks again for your extremely patience and polite. I'm reffering about dragging files from the clip list. Best, Juan. -Original Message- From: Slau Halatyn Sent: Saturday, September 27, 2014 9:09 PM To: ptaccess@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: discovery about nudge value Hi Juan, I'm sorry, I'm a bit confused about your current question. I'm not sure exactly what you're trying to either ask or say. Dragging files from the Clip list (or Region list, as it is sometimes called) is certainly possible with VoiceOver but it's a multi-step process that is not at all efficient and, frankly, sometimes it just inexplicably doesn't seem to work. That type of drag and drop is somewhat different from dragging and dropping within the timeline. It's the action of dragging and dropping within the timeline that is essentially impossible for a blind user much in the same way throwing darts is not accessible. That doesn't mean a blind user couldn't conceivably throw a dart but what would be the point? If a blind person is told that the bullseye is exactly 5 and a half feet from the floor and exactly 8 and three quarter feet from the left wall and if the blind dart thrower could punch in a number to have the dart automatically be put at those coordinates, what's the point of throwing it? We have a few methods to edit and position regions with sample accuracy through keyboard shortcuts. A sighted user can zoom out of a timeline, see the region they've just highlighted, look down the timeline and see a space where the copied or dragged region should go. They can see the timeline and, in general terms see the approximate time where the region needs to go. They still have to position it more precisely once it's in the general vicinity. They have to zoom in, reposition the region, possibly use the grid or just audition the region in context to see if it's in the right place. Yes, there is an advantage to be able to see an overview of the timeline but that's something that a blind user will never have the ability to do. It's simply the nature of being blind, not being able to see what would take a thousand words to describe. Now, here's an example of a real advantage is for a sighted user: If you needed to select non-contiguous files from several tracks and move them all at the same time. For example if you had a region on track 1 from 3 seconds to 10 seconds, a region on track 2 from 4 seconds to 9 seconds and a region on track 3 from zero seconds to twenty seconds, a sighted user could use the grabber tool and select those three regions which appear on three tracks at different times by Shift-clicking with the grabber tool and, in one motion, drag them to a different part of the timeline or nudge them or whatever. Again this is something that a blind user simply cannot do. Let me say this, however, I've been using a digital audio workstation since 1994 and I've never had to perform the aforementioned action, ever, not even once. That doesn't mean that it might not come up some time in the future. I doubt it will but, if it does, I'll take more time and do each track separately. I hope that clarifies a few things. Best regards, Slau On Sep 27, 2014, at 2:24 PM, Juan Pablo jpcula...@gmail.com wrote: Slau, sorry for my lack of knoledge. But what's the way to drag and drop from the clip list? When I talked about drag and drop, I'm reffering to your second part of your message. Best, Juan. -Original Message- From: Slau Halatyn Sent: Saturday, September 27, 2014 3:19 PM To: ptaccess@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: discovery about nudge value Hi Juan, I'm sorry but I don't agree with you. Drag and drop is just something a blind person cannot do. How would you propose this would work? Cut, copy and paste is perfectly fine in addition to nudging and spotting. What can't you do in the timeline with drag and drop that you can't do with the commands I mentioned? Now, if you're talking about dragging from the Clips list into a timeline, then yes, there needs to be a more elegant solution th an what we currently have. I can see that possibly being implemented in the future but that's a matter of introducing a new way, or at least an alternative way, of performing specific actions. This would take more resources and more supporting arguments. Slau On Sep 27, 2014, at 1:24 PM, Juan Pablo jpcula...@gmail.com wrote: Hi, Slau. Is fact: protools is advancing to a fully accessible soft. but in my opinion, with the time line not accessible, We're lossing at least 50% of this powerful tool. Yes, there are lots of sortcuts that made this tings in a diferent way. but has the hability to drag and dropp, would be a big jump. I hope in pt12 we've good news on this. best, Juan. -Original Message- From: Slau Halatyn Sent: Friday, September 26, 2014 1:27 PM To: ptaccess@googlegroups.com Subject: discovery about nudge value Folks, One
discovery about nudge value
Folks, One of the features for which I've been campaigning on the accessibility with on the Pro Tools front has been the nudge value field. In earlier versions of Pro Tools, it was not specifically accessible but one could at least press the button, type a value, press Return and at least the custom field was entered and one could go about their business with the new nudge value. Now, if you don't know why a custom nudge value is important, never mind for now and trust me when I say that it'll save your ass at some point, guaranteed. well, in Pro Tools 11, the interface changed a bit and now at least we could see the Nudge Controls button which popped up the format selection and default values. Thing is, now we couldn't enter the custom value. I submitted a bug report and nothing seemed to change because other items like the MIDI Event List took precedence, understandably. Well, only yesterday, I stumbled upon what I can only call a discovery, for lack of a better word because it was truly hidden. Unfortunately, a bit of a misnomer was incorporated when one of the programmers worked on the nudge and grid controls. In the edit window, there is a Grid/Nudge cluster. That naming convention was inherited from the initial work of PT accessibility in version 8. When interacting, you find 3 items labeled Show Grid Lines (which is either selected or not), Grid Controls button and Nudge Controls button Clicking on the first button toggles its state of either showing or not showing grid lines in the timeline. Clicking either of the two remaining buttons pops up a list of formats and default values as mentioned earlier. Yesterday, as I was making a macro to double-click on the nudge value field to at least be able to once again enter custom nudge values, I needed to quickly navigate to the Nudge Control button and so I brought up the Item Chooser list and typed n u d g e. Surprisingly, the list contained several items rather than just the one I was expecting. It contained a text field labeled Nudge and a numeric field labeled Nudge value. I had never seen this before and was stunned. To my astonishment, having selected the nudge value field, I purposely stopped interacting with the control to see where it was nested. To my surprise, it was nested in the Nudge Controls button. Well, of course, a VoiceOver user would never think to interact with a button because that's not the function of a button. In fact, upon retrying with another session, simply navigating to the Nudge Controls button and interacting with it simply interacts with the title of the button itself rather than its alleged contents. Bringing up the Item Chooser, however, indeed exposes the hidden controls. Further, once accessed, interacting and exiting interaction with the button seems to traverse the levels repeatedly. Bottom line is, if you need to type a custom nudge value, and I promise you, you will at some point, use the Item Chooser to get to the Nudge Value numeric field, click once and type the custom value, hit Return and be on your way. This is an issue of nomenclature mostly but also the non-standard manner in which a control was defined. It's really not a button but a group of controls or a cluster, if you will. So, it's confusing until you know what it truly is. I'm explaining this so that, when others ask, more people on the list know about this quirk. That said, I'm relieved that the issue of access to the nudge value was addressed, albeit in a non-standard way, because it's truly one of the quality-of-life issues that kept me from moving to Pro Tools 11 full time. For me, this was a big one. There are a few others that are being addressed in beta that will be resolved soon, I'm sure. Anyway, just sharing the info. Slau -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Pro Tools Accessibility group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to ptaccess+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: discovery about nudge value
very cool! psst. any news from iLok? At 12:27 PM 9/26/2014, you wrote: Folks, One of the features for which I've been campaigning on the accessibility with on the Pro Tools front has been the nudge value field. In earlier versions of Pro Tools, it was not specifically accessible but one could at least press the button, type a value, press Return and at least the custom field was entered and one could go about their business with the new nudge value. Now, if you don't know why a custom nudge value is important, never mind for now and trust me when I say that it'll save your ass at some point, guaranteed. well, in Pro Tools 11, the interface changed a bit and now at least we could see the Nudge Controls button which popped up the format selection and default values. Thing is, now we couldn't enter the custom value. I submitted a bug report and nothing seemed to change because other items like the MIDI Event List took precedence, understandably. Well, only yesterday, I stumbled upon what I can only call a discovery, for lack of a better word because it was truly hidden. Unfortunately, a bit of a misnomer was incorporated when one of the programmers worked on the nudge and grid controls. In the edit window, there is a Grid/Nudge cluster. That naming convention was inherited from the initial work of PT accessibility in version 8. When interacting, you find 3 items labeled Show Grid Lines (which is either selected or not), Grid Controls button and Nudge Controls button Clicking on the first button toggles its state of either showing or not showing grid lines in the timeline. Clicking either of the two remaining buttons pops up a list of formats and default values as mentioned earlier. Yesterday, as I was making a macro to double-click on the nudge value field to at least be able to once again enter custom nudge values, I needed to quickly navigate to the Nudge Control button and so I brought up the Item Chooser list and typed n u d g e. Surprisingly, the list contained several items rather than just the one I was expecting. It contained a text field labeled Nudge and a numeric field labeled Nudge value. I had never seen this before and was stunned. To my astonishment, having selected the nudge value field, I purposely stopped interacting with the control to see where it was nested. To my surprise, it was nested in the Nudge Controls button. Well, of course, a VoiceOver user would never think to interact with a button because that's not the function of a button. In fact, upon retrying with another session, simply navigating to the Nudge Controls button and interacting with it simply interacts with the title of the button itself rather than its alleged contents. Bringing up the Item Chooser, however, indeed exposes the hidden controls. Further, once accessed, interacting and exiting interaction with the button seems to traverse the levels repeatedly. Bottom line is, if you need to type a custom nudge value, and I promise you, you will at some point, use the Item Chooser to get to the Nudge Value numeric field, click once and type the custom value, hit Return and be on your way. This is an issue of nomenclature mostly but also the non-standard manner in which a control was defined. It's really not a button but a group of controls or a cluster, if you will. So, it's confusing until you know what it truly is. I'm explaining this so that, when others ask, more people on the list know about this quirk. That said, I'm relieved that the issue of access to the nudge value was addressed, albeit in a non-standard way, because it's truly one of the quality-of-life issues that kept me from moving to Pro Tools 11 full time. For me, this was a big one. There are a few others that are being addressed in beta that will be resolved soon, I'm sure. Anyway, just sharing the info. Slau -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Pro Tools Accessibility group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to ptaccess+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Pro Tools Accessibility group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to ptaccess+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: discovery about nudge value
I think I will try the item chooser and logic as well. You are making ProTools look more inviting day after day. I am just a novice and music is a little more than a hobby I am not professional anymore. But with ProTools I might try for a little more side work. Ricky Prevatte LMBT1154 On Sep 26, 2014, at 12:27 PM, Slau Halatyn slauhala...@gmail.com wrote: Folks, One of the features for which I've been campaigning on the accessibility with on the Pro Tools front has been the nudge value field. In earlier versions of Pro Tools, it was not specifically accessible but one could at least press the button, type a value, press Return and at least the custom field was entered and one could go about their business with the new nudge value. Now, if you don't know why a custom nudge value is important, never mind for now and trust me when I say that it'll save your ass at some point, guaranteed. well, in Pro Tools 11, the interface changed a bit and now at least we could see the Nudge Controls button which popped up the format selection and default values. Thing is, now we couldn't enter the custom value. I submitted a bug report and nothing seemed to change because other items like the MIDI Event List took precedence, understandably. Well, only yesterday, I stumbled upon what I can only call a discovery, for lack of a better word because it was truly hidden. Unfortunately, a bit of a misnomer was incorporated when one of the programmers worked on the nudge and grid controls. In the edit window, there is a Grid/Nudge cluster. That naming convention was inherited from the initial work of PT accessibility in version 8. When interacting, you find 3 items labeled Show Grid Lines (which is either selected or not), Grid Controls button and Nudge Controls button Clicking on the first button toggles its state of either showing or not showing grid lines in the timeline. Clicking either of the two remaining buttons pops up a list of formats and default values as mentioned earlier. Yesterday, as I was making a macro to double-click on the nudge value field to at least be able to once again enter custom nudge values, I needed to quickly navigate to the Nudge Control button and so I brought up the Item Chooser list and typed n u d g e. Surprisingly, the list contained several items rather than just the one I was expecting. It contained a text field labeled Nudge and a numeric field labeled Nudge value. I had never seen this before and was stunned. To my astonishment, having selected the nudge value field, I purposely stopped interacting with the control to see where it was nested. To my surprise, it was nested in the Nudge Controls button. Well, of course, a VoiceOver user would never think to interact with a button because that's not the function of a button. In fact, upon retrying with another session, simply navigating to the Nudge Controls button and interacting with it simply interacts with the title of the button itself rather than its alleged contents. Bringing up the Item Chooser, however, indeed exposes the hidden controls. Further, once accessed, interacting and exiting interaction with the button seems to traverse the levels repeatedly. Bottom line is, if you need to type a custom nudge value, and I promise you, you will at some point, use the Item Chooser to get to the Nudge Value numeric field, click once and type the custom value, hit Return and be on your way. This is an issue of nomenclature mostly but also the non-standard manner in which a control was defined. It's really not a button but a group of controls or a cluster, if you will. So, it's confusing until you know what it truly is. I'm explaining this so that, when others ask, more people on the list know about this quirk. That said, I'm relieved that the issue of access to the nudge value was addressed, albeit in a non-standard way, because it's truly one of the quality-of-life issues that kept me from moving to Pro Tools 11 full time. For me, this was a big one. There are a few others that are being addressed in beta that will be resolved soon, I'm sure. Anyway, just sharing the info. Slau -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Pro Tools Accessibility group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to ptaccess+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Pro Tools Accessibility group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to ptaccess+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: discovery about nudge value
Hi, I think also this is a very good thing as I was having this same issue. The one issue with this method is if pro tools is upgraded who is to say this feature won't break and do you know if there are plans to make this a standard voiceover button as I could see this method breaking in another release as with other software I have ran across where you have to interact with buttons to get results with the screen reader? I do hope they won't break this feature but continue to make wonderful fixes as with pro tools 11 they have made lots of wonderful fixes but when these types of issues come up it makes me and my teachers wonder about making pro tools totally usable with voiceover. If all of us could write a good document like using pro tools with voiceover in a pdf format could we possibley have Avid include it in their next version of the documentation? I have ran into other blind users who are friends of mine and people who were not friends of mine asking about the accessibility of pro tools and when they have called or written Avid the people they have talked to act like they know nothing about using pro tools as a blind person which was also my issue at first or I would have been into pro tools a long time ago? I am not trying to say that these methods don't work as they do but for other users who are brand new as I was trying to explain some of these tricks to another blind person a few days ago they were totally clueless on what I was talking about but then again they had not used pro tools before. The document could always be written with a statement at the top that this material was not written by Avid but is being provided by the community as a service or one of the programmers at Avid who deals in accessibility could also write such a document with our input. Having the Avid developers also join this list even if they don't always respond but just read these messages would be very useful if it is not already being done as this way when we bring up an issue they would be made aware of it. Is there any plans to continue that one site that was created for pro tools accessibility about a year ago that was going to have good pointers on resources and tutorials as if so then all that would need to be done as a link to that site featured in the documentation? Nick Gawronski On 9/26/2014 7:31 PM, Ricky Prevatte wrote: I think I will try the item chooser and logic as well. You are making ProTools look more inviting day after day. I am just a novice and music is a little more than a hobby I am not professional anymore. But with ProTools I might try for a little more side work. Ricky Prevatte LMBT1154 On Sep 26, 2014, at 12:27 PM, Slau Halatyn slauhala...@gmail.com wrote: Folks, One of the features for which I've been campaigning on the accessibility with on the Pro Tools front has been the nudge value field. In earlier versions of Pro Tools, it was not specifically accessible but one could at least press the button, type a value, press Return and at least the custom field was entered and one could go about their business with the new nudge value. Now, if you don't know why a custom nudge value is important, never mind for now and trust me when I say that it'll save your ass at some point, guaranteed. well, in Pro Tools 11, the interface changed a bit and now at least we could see the Nudge Controls button which popped up the format selection and default values. Thing is, now we couldn't enter the custom value. I submitted a bug report and nothing seemed to change because other items like the MIDI Event List took precedence, understandably. Well, only yesterday, I stumbled upon what I can only call a discovery, for lack of a better word because it was truly hidden. Unfortunately, a bit of a misnomer was incorporated when one of the programmers worked on the nudge and grid controls. In the edit window, there is a Grid/Nudge cluster. That naming convention was inherited from the initial work of PT accessibility in version 8. When interacting, you find 3 items labeled Show Grid Lines (which is either selected or not), Grid Controls button and Nudge Controls button Clicking on the first button toggles its state of either showing or not showing grid lines in the timeline. Clicking either of the two remaining buttons pops up a list of formats and default values as mentioned earlier. Yesterday, as I was making a macro to double-click on the nudge value field to at least be able to once again enter custom nudge values, I needed to quickly navigate to the Nudge Control button and so I brought up the Item Chooser list and typed n u d g e. Surprisingly, the list contained several items rather than just the one I was expecting. It contained a text field labeled Nudge and a numeric field labeled Nudge value. I had never seen this before and was stunned. To my astonishment, having selected the nudge value field, I purposely stopped interacting
Re: discovery about nudge value
Hello, Not to spoil anything but Matt from the list and with www.protollswithspeech.com has a video setting up speech which came out last June. However anyway you look at it, it's a good find. YMMV, John On Sep 26, 2014, at 12:48 PM, Kevin Reeves reeves...@gmail.com wrote: Thanks for this. This is a huge one for me as well, as I like to work in increments of 20 ticks or so when crossfading edits. Thanks man. Kevin On Sep 26, 2014, at 12:27 PM, Slau Halatyn slauhala...@gmail.com wrote: Folks, One of the features for which I've been campaigning on the accessibility with on the Pro Tools front has been the nudge value field. In earlier versions of Pro Tools, it was not specifically accessible but one could at least press the button, type a value, press Return and at least the custom field was entered and one could go about their business with the new nudge value. Now, if you don't know why a custom nudge value is important, never mind for now and trust me when I say that it'll save your ass at some point, guaranteed. well, in Pro Tools 11, the interface changed a bit and now at least we could see the Nudge Controls button which popped up the format selection and default values. Thing is, now we couldn't enter the custom value. I submitted a bug report and nothing seemed to change because other items like the MIDI Event List took precedence, understandably. Well, only yesterday, I stumbled upon what I can only call a discovery, for lack of a better word because it was truly hidden. Unfortunately, a bit of a misnomer was incorporated when one of the programmers worked on the nudge and grid controls. In the edit window, there is a Grid/Nudge cluster. That naming convention was inherited from the initial work of PT accessibility in version 8. When interacting, you find 3 items labeled Show Grid Lines (which is either selected or not), Grid Controls button and Nudge Controls button Clicking on the first button toggles its state of either showing or not showing grid lines in the timeline. Clicking either of the two remaining buttons pops up a list of formats and default values as mentioned earlier. Yesterday, as I was making a macro to double-click on the nudge value field to at least be able to once again enter custom nudge values, I needed to quickly navigate to the Nudge Control button and so I brought up the Item Chooser list and typed n u d g e. Surprisingly, the list contained several items rather than just the one I was expecting. It contained a text field labeled Nudge and a numeric field labeled Nudge value. I had never seen this before and was stunned. To my astonishment, having selected the nudge value field, I purposely stopped interacting with the control to see where it was nested. To my surprise, it was nested in the Nudge Controls button. Well, of course, a VoiceOver user would never think to interact with a button because that's not the function of a button. In fact, upon retrying with another session, simply navigating to the Nudge Controls button and interacting with it simply interacts with the title of the button itself rather than its alleged contents. Bringing up the Item Chooser, however, indeed exposes the hidden controls. Further, once accessed, interacting and exiting interaction with the button seems to traverse the levels repeatedly. Bottom line is, if you need to type a custom nudge value, and I promise you, you will at some point, use the Item Chooser to get to the Nudge Value numeric field, click once and type the custom value, hit Return and be on your way. This is an issue of nomenclature mostly but also the non-standard manner in which a control was defined. It's really not a button but a group of controls or a cluster, if you will. So, it's confusing until you know what it truly is. I'm explaining this so that, when others ask, more people on the list know about this quirk. That said, I'm relieved that the issue of access to the nudge value was addressed, albeit in a non-standard way, because it's truly one of the quality-of-life issues that kept me from moving to Pro Tools 11 full time. For me, this was a big one. There are a few others that are being addressed in beta that will be resolved soon, I'm sure. Anyway, just sharing the info. Slau -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Pro Tools Accessibility group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to ptaccess+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Pro Tools Accessibility group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to ptaccess+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --
