Re: [Standards] XEP-0255 (Location Query): ethernet reference type?

[Joe Hildebrand]

On Mar 5, 2009, at 5:49 AM, Pedro Melo wrote:

I don't see the usefulness of sending my own mac address. But  
sending the mac address of my default gateway, then yes, I find that  
very useful. That's how a lot of "location aware"-tools for the Mac  
work for example.


It's just another source of information, if the network is "smart".
In some environments, there are services that can take an ethernet  
address, and return location.  I want to deploy into one of those  
environments, and do it in a standard manner.


--
Joe Hildebrand

Re: [Standards] XEP-0255 (Location Query): ethernet reference type?

[Pedro Melo]

On Mar 2, 2009, at 7:23 PM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:

I was chatting with Joe Hildebrand about XEP-0255 and he mentioned  
that
it would be good to add a reference type for an Ethernet address,  
such as:



 
   
 00.31.55.f9.1d.de
 ethernet
   
 


It seems that we'd need this because your ethernet address might be
different from your wifi address even in the same location (e.g.,  
where
I am right now my ethernet address is 00:23:32:d4:28:ea whereas my  
wifi

address is 00:23:6c:88:d4:1d).


I don't see the usefulness of sending my own mac address. But sending  
the mac address of my default gateway, then yes, I find that very  
useful. That's how a lot of "location aware"-tools for the Mac work  
for example.


Other scenario: bounjour printers, for example. I would send the mac  
address of the printer and get the coordinates. They usually have a  
"location" field in the bonjour advertisement, though.


Best regards,
--
Pedro Melo
Blog: http://www.simplicidade.org/notes/
XMPP ID: m...@simplicidade.org
Use XMPP!

Re: [Standards] XEP-0255 (Location Query): ethernet reference type?

[Fabio Forno]

On Tue, Mar 3, 2009 at 6:08 PM, Helge Timenes  wrote:

> The reference type "rfid" has been actually been foreseen since v0.1. This
> is also not covered by any examples and I have made no assumptions as to how
> the ID of a RFID reference should be composed as I don't really know much
> about it :-) Fabio: Perhaps you could help me with a short example?

I think that very few know, since they are making things overcomplicated ;)

Afaik (which is not a lot)  here you can find the most general way for
encoding rfid data:

http://www.epcglobalinc.org/standards/tds/

To make the story short the urn scheme is something like this:

urn:epc:id:gid:1.1.100

where
 - epc tells that you are encoding things according to those specs
 - id means that the urn refers to a pure tag id (there more complex
schemes for application dependent data, filters...)
 - gid: the identity type, says that is a general id, indicating that
the following id must not be interpreted for a specific purpose such
as a shipping number or a product code
 - and finally finally the numeric id

Therefore in the  element I'd put the EPC urn, and than let the
application give it a meaning according to the used encoding

-- 
Fabio Forno, Ph.D.
Bluendo srl http://www.bluendo.com
jabber id: f...@jabber.bluendo.com

Re: [Standards] XEP-0255 (Location Query): ethernet reference type?

[Joe Hildebrand]

On Mar 3, 2009, at 11:17 PM, Helge Timenes wrote:


Joe Hildebrand wrote:


On Mar 3, 2009, at 10:21 AM, Helge Timenes wrote:

Actually, I meant the local ethernet (MAC) address of your active  
network connection(s).  There are network elements that keep  
track of the ethernet addresses they have seen, and can glean  
location information from that connectivity information.  Imagine  
that your switch's ARP map was query-able, and you knew where  
each switch port was punched down in a given office.  Also  
imagine a network of wireless access points that can triangulate  
on you, given your ethernet address.
I will come back to you on that one when i have fully understood  
what you meant (can't really think in the bus I'm sitting in ATM ;-)


To be clear, what I'm asking for is the addition of an "ethernet"  
reference type, which is the ethernet address of a NIC on the  
user's machine.
Let me try to recapture this scenario, just to see if i understood  
it right: Someone attaches his notebook to, say, an ethernet wall  
socket in an office building. The local network switch, or some  
service with access to it, knows where each ethernet wall socket is  
located (room number, lat/lon or what have you) and thus would know  
where each connected device is. So if the device itself wants to  
know, it would send a location query with the NIC MAC to this  
service and get its location served on a plate. Is that about right?


That is exactly correct.

2) For components outside your core XMPP service, it would be  
nice to direct a presence to them first, so that they get  
notified when you go offline.
If a location server provide location upon request, I'm not sure  
if online/offline presence adds much...?


The use case I've got is that the location server wants to know  
when your device is no longer a source of location.  Unavailable  
presence is a great indicator for that.  If you direct a presence  
to the location server, then it will always get notified when you  
go offline, in much the same way that a XEP-45 chat room does.
What would the server do with the offline presence info? Clear this  
users geoloc Pub-Sub node?


Yes, or prefer a lower-priority resource's location information.

As a corollary, re-publishing a different ethernet address from the  
same resource should replace the previous information, and publishing  
an empty set retracts the previous information.

Re: [Standards] XEP-0255 (Location Query): ethernet reference type?

[Helge Timenes]

Joe Hildebrand wrote:

On Mar 3, 2009, at 10:21 AM, Helge Timenes wrote:

Actually, I meant the local ethernet (MAC) address of your active 
network connection(s).  There are network elements that keep track 
of the ethernet addresses they have seen, and can glean location 
information from that connectivity information.  Imagine that your 
switch's ARP map was query-able, and you knew where each switch port 
was punched down in a given office.  Also imagine a network of 
wireless access points that can triangulate on you, given your 
ethernet address.
I will come back to you on that one when i have fully understood what 
you meant (can't really think in the bus I'm sitting in ATM ;-)


To be clear, what I'm asking for is the addition of an "ethernet" 
reference type, which is the ethernet address of a NIC on the user's 
machine.
Let me try to recapture this scenario, just to see if i understood it 
right: Someone attaches his notebook to, say, an ethernet wall socket in 
an office building. The local network switch, or some service with 
access to it, knows where each ethernet wall socket is located (room 
number, lat/lon or what have you) and thus would know where each 
connected device is. So if the device itself wants to know, it would 
send a location query with the NIC MAC to this service and get its 
location served on a plate. Is that about right?


1) Need a "discovering support" section.  I might want to find a 
location service using disco#items/disco#info, as implied by "run as 
a component on the same or a different machine from the XMPP server 
itself".

Yes that makes sense. Will add to TODO list.


Thanks.

2) For components outside your core XMPP service, it would be nice 
to direct a presence to them first, so that they get notified when 
you go offline.
If a location server provide location upon request, I'm not sure if 
online/offline presence adds much...?


The use case I've got is that the location server wants to know when 
your device is no longer a source of location.  Unavailable presence 
is a great indicator for that.  If you direct a presence to the 
location server, then it will always get notified when you go offline, 
in much the same way that a XEP-45 chat room does.
What would the server do with the offline presence info? Clear this 
users geoloc Pub-Sub node?

Re: [Standards] XEP-0255 (Location Query): ethernet reference type?

[Joe Hildebrand]

On Mar 3, 2009, at 10:21 AM, Helge Timenes wrote:

Actually, I meant the local ethernet (MAC) address of your active  
network connection(s).  There are network elements that keep track  
of the ethernet addresses they have seen, and can glean location  
information from that connectivity information.  Imagine that your  
switch's ARP map was query-able, and you knew where each switch  
port was punched down in a given office.  Also imagine a network of  
wireless access points that can triangulate on you, given your  
ethernet address.
I will come back to you on that one when i have fully understood  
what you meant (can't really think in the bus I'm sitting in ATM ;-)


To be clear, what I'm asking for is the addition of an "ethernet"  
reference type, which is the ethernet address of a NIC on the user's  
machine.


1) Need a "discovering support" section.  I might want to find a  
location service using disco#items/disco#info, as implied by "run  
as a component on the same or a different machine from the XMPP  
server itself".

Yes that makes sense. Will add to TODO list.


Thanks.

2) For components outside your core XMPP service, it would be nice  
to direct a presence to them first, so that they get notified when  
you go offline.
If a location server provide location upon request, I'm not sure if  
online/offline presence adds much...?


The use case I've got is that the location server wants to know when  
your device is no longer a source of location.  Unavailable presence  
is a great indicator for that.  If you direct a presence to the  
location server, then it will always get notified when you go offline,  
in much the same way that a XEP-45 chat room does.


3) Some location services may be able to publish your XEP-80  
location to PEP on your behalf.  If so, they should return an empty  
result:


 
If I understand you correctly, that is indeed what is specified (see  
Example 6)


Whoops, sorry.  Missed that, perhaps because it wasn't clear to me  
that Example 7 was coming from the location service.  Perhaps there  
needs to be a little more expository text between the examples.

Re: [Standards] XEP-0255 (Location Query): ethernet reference type?

[Helge Timenes]

Joe Hildebrand wrote:

On Mar 2, 2009, at 3:15 PM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:


Uhm.. is that meaningful? Usually for location queries external
references are more useful than your address (e.g. your MAC moves with
your notebook, so what is the purpose of doing a query with it?)


I meant your locally-assigned IPv4 or IPv6 address, not your MAC
address. My bad.


Actually, I meant the local ethernet (MAC) address of your active 
network connection(s).  There are network elements that keep track of 
the ethernet addresses they have seen, and can glean location 
information from that connectivity information.  Imagine that your 
switch's ARP map was query-able, and you knew where each switch port 
was punched down in a given office.  Also imagine a network of 
wireless access points that can triangulate on you, given your 
ethernet address.
I will come back to you on that one when i have fully understood what 
you meant (can't really think in the bus I'm sitting in ATM ;-)


I had a couple of other suggestions for -255, as well:

1) Need a "discovering support" section.  I might want to find a 
location service using disco#items/disco#info, as implied by "run as a 
component on the same or a different machine from the XMPP server itself".

Yes that makes sense. Will add to TODO list.
2) For components outside your core XMPP service, it would be nice to 
direct a presence to them first, so that they get notified when you go 
offline.
If a location server provide location upon request, I'm not sure if 
online/offline presence adds much...?
3) Some location services may be able to publish your XEP-80 location 
to PEP on your behalf.  If so, they should return an empty result:


id='q01' 
to='ham...@shakespeare.lit /phone' 
type='result' 
xml:lang='en-US'/>
If I understand you correctly, that is indeed what is specified (see 
Example 6)



Helge

Re: [Standards] XEP-0255 (Location Query): ethernet reference type?

[Helge Timenes]

Fabio Forno wrote:

On Mon, Mar 2, 2009 at 11:15 PM, Peter Saint-Andre  wrote:
  

I meant your locally-assigned IPv4 or IPv6 address, not your MAC
address. My bad.



Penitenziagite! :D Yep, now I get the point and it makes sense

  
Sorry for being a bit late responding to this. The reference type "ip" 
was added on last revision (v04 2009-02-17). Granted it does not show up 
in the examples... Will add one.




Besides that there is one more reference we are starting using: RFID
addresses, which allow to pinpoint the exact position of the device.
  


The only problem is that there are few different id schemes (e.g EPC,
96bits; iso 15693, 64 bits and other proprietary). Somewhere there urn
schemes allowing the mapping between the different standards, but a
solution like this should be general enough:
rfid
idscheme:id

(need to do some more research for confirming)

  
The reference type "rfid" has been actually been foreseen since v0.1. 
This is also not covered by any examples and I have made no assumptions 
as to how the ID of a RFID reference should be composed as I don't 
really know much about it :-) Fabio: Perhaps you could help me with a 
short example?



Helge

Re: [Standards] XEP-0255 (Location Query): ethernet reference type?

[Joe Hildebrand]

On Mar 2, 2009, at 3:15 PM, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:


Uhm.. is that meaningful? Usually for location queries external
references are more useful than your address (e.g. your MAC moves  
with

your notebook, so what is the purpose of doing a query with it?)


I meant your locally-assigned IPv4 or IPv6 address, not your MAC
address. My bad.


Actually, I meant the local ethernet (MAC) address of your active  
network connection(s).  There are network elements that keep track of  
the ethernet addresses they have seen, and can glean location  
information from that connectivity information.  Imagine that your  
switch's ARP map was query-able, and you knew where each switch port  
was punched down in a given office.  Also imagine a network of  
wireless access points that can triangulate on you, given your  
ethernet address.


I had a couple of other suggestions for -255, as well:

1) Need a "discovering support" section.  I might want to find a  
location service using disco#items/disco#info, as implied by "run as a  
component on the same or a different machine from the XMPP server  
itself".
2) For components outside your core XMPP service, it would be nice to  
direct a presence to them first, so that they get notified when you go  
offline.
3) Some location services may be able to publish your XEP-80 location  
to PEP on your behalf.  If so, they should return an empty result:

Re: [Standards] XEP-0255 (Location Query): ethernet reference type?

[Seth Fitzsimmons]

>>> It seems that we'd need this because your ethernet address might be
>>> different from your wifi address even in the same location (e.g., where
>>> I am right now my ethernet address is 00:23:32:d4:28:ea whereas my wifi
>>> address is 00:23:6c:88:d4:1d).
>>>
>>
>> Uhm.. is that meaningful? Usually for location queries external
>> references are more useful than your address (e.g. your MAC moves with
>> your notebook, so what is the purpose of doing a query with it?)
>
> I meant your locally-assigned IPv4 or IPv6 address, not your MAC
> address. My bad.

I think the intent was to pass in WiFi beacons (or MAC addresses of
visible access points) rather than the assigned IP.

That said, HELD (part of the IETF GeoPriv effort) attempts to provide
mechanisms to determine location from IP:
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-geopriv-http-location-delivery-12

seth

Re: [Standards] XEP-0255 (Location Query): ethernet reference type?

[Fabio Forno]

On Mon, Mar 2, 2009 at 11:15 PM, Peter Saint-Andre  wrote:
>
> I meant your locally-assigned IPv4 or IPv6 address, not your MAC
> address. My bad.

Penitenziagite! :D Yep, now I get the point and it makes sense

>> Besides that there is one more reference we are starting using: RFID
>> addresses, which allow to pinpoint the exact position of the device.

The only problem is that there are few different id schemes (e.g EPC,
96bits; iso 15693, 64 bits and other proprietary). Somewhere there urn
schemes allowing the mapping between the different standards, but a
solution like this should be general enough:
rfid
idscheme:id

(need to do some more research for confirming)

-- 
Fabio Forno, Ph.D.
Ooros srl
jabber id: f...@jabber.bluendo.com

Re: [Standards] XEP-0255 (Location Query): ethernet reference type?

[Peter Saint-Andre]

Fabio Forno wrote:
> On Mon, Mar 2, 2009 at 8:23 PM, Peter Saint-Andre  wrote:
>> I was chatting with Joe Hildebrand about XEP-0255 and he mentioned that
> 
> [...]
>> It seems that we'd need this because your ethernet address might be
>> different from your wifi address even in the same location (e.g., where
>> I am right now my ethernet address is 00:23:32:d4:28:ea whereas my wifi
>> address is 00:23:6c:88:d4:1d).
>>
> 
> Uhm.. is that meaningful? Usually for location queries external
> references are more useful than your address (e.g. your MAC moves with
> your notebook, so what is the purpose of doing a query with it?)

I meant your locally-assigned IPv4 or IPv6 address, not your MAC
address. My bad.

> Besides that there is one more reference we are starting using: RFID
> addresses, which allow to pinpoint the exact position of the device.

Yes, that too would be useful.

Peter

-- 
Peter Saint-Andre
https://stpeter.im/



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Re: [Standards] XEP-0255 (Location Query): ethernet reference type?

[Fabio Forno]

On Mon, Mar 2, 2009 at 8:23 PM, Peter Saint-Andre  wrote:
> I was chatting with Joe Hildebrand about XEP-0255 and he mentioned that

[...]
> It seems that we'd need this because your ethernet address might be
> different from your wifi address even in the same location (e.g., where
> I am right now my ethernet address is 00:23:32:d4:28:ea whereas my wifi
> address is 00:23:6c:88:d4:1d).
>

Uhm.. is that meaningful? Usually for location queries external
references are more useful than your address (e.g. your MAC moves with
your notebook, so what is the purpose of doing a query with it?)

Besides that there is one more reference we are starting using: RFID
addresses, which allow to pinpoint the exact position of the device.

-- 
Fabio Forno, Ph.D.
Bluendo srl http://www.bluendo.com
jabber id: f...@jabber.bluendo.com

Re: [Standards] XEP-0255 (Location Query): ethernet reference type?

[Andreas Monitzer]

On Mar 02, 2009, at 20:23, Peter Saint-Andre wrote:

I was chatting with Joe Hildebrand about XEP-0255 and he mentioned  
that
it would be good to add a reference type for an Ethernet address,  
such as:


It seems that we'd need this because your ethernet address might be
different from your wifi address even in the same location (e.g.,  
where
I am right now my ethernet address is 00:23:32:d4:28:ea whereas my  
wifi

address is 00:23:6c:88:d4:1d).


My MacPro has two Ethernet ports built-in, bringing the total number  
of MAC addresses to 3. Some servers might have even more.


andy

[Standards] XEP-0255 (Location Query): ethernet reference type?

[Peter Saint-Andre]

I was chatting with Joe Hildebrand about XEP-0255 and he mentioned that
it would be good to add a reference type for an Ethernet address, such as:


  

  00.31.55.f9.1d.de
  ethernet

  


It seems that we'd need this because your ethernet address might be
different from your wifi address even in the same location (e.g., where
I am right now my ethernet address is 00:23:32:d4:28:ea whereas my wifi
address is 00:23:6c:88:d4:1d).

Peter

-- 
Peter Saint-Andre
https://stpeter.im/



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