Re: [OSM-talk] OSM user diary etiquette
This is my first post within these mailman lists. Just in case I make some mistake that leads to this message not getting placed in the lists correctly, the post that I am trying to respond to is at:– https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/2019-June/082747.html 1. https://www.stopforumspam.com/forum/viewtopic.php?pid=50236#p50236 : • (email) Re: [Ticket#201906221073] Alex: Enough with the Insults and Comdemnation (sic) • 24/06/2019, 23:00: “we have removed your latest diary entry because it was considered too offensive” The discussion in the post linked at top is very one-sided. None of the “obnoxious behaviour” can be viewed, since the posts mentioned have been removed. Well, joy! Although 12 posts total were deleted by the DWG, 11 were saved by myself at the time and many of them can be viewed elsewhere so that unbiased persons can make up their own mind as to just how vile these posts were (not). So, in reverse order:– (You will be disappointed if you are hoping to read lots of insults and/or swearing) 2. https://www.stopforumspam.com/forum/viewtopic.php?pid=50239#p50239 : • A Stranger at your Table 2019-06-24 • (the word-for-word post mentioned in [1] above that sparked removal of all Spam-info posts in OSM Diaries) 3. https://github.com/openstreetmap/operations/issues/308 : • Github email 2019-06-22: “A maintainer of the @openstreetmap organization has blocked you” 4. https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/alexkemp/diary/390252 : • Post about AST Auto Centre + spam in OSM 2019-06-05, re-posted 2019-08-06 (spam-related material removed for clarity): “PoI Musings” 5. https://www.stopforumspam.com/forum/viewtopic.php?pid=50184#p50184 : • Post about spam in OSM 2019-05-18: “OSM is now within an iteration of spam-bot software (such as XRumer)” 6. https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/alexkemp/diary/390418 : • Post about spam in OSM 2019-05-12, re-posted 2019-07-12: “How to Stop the Spam-Storm” 7. https://www.stopforumspam.com/forum/viewtopic.php?pid=50245#p50245 : 8. https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/alexkemp/diary/390250 : • Post about spam in OSM 2019-05-06, re-posted 2019-07-12: “Recent Spam Attacks” • (a set of statistics, originated to discover whether the then-recent spam attacks were human or bot-attacks) 9. https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/alexkemp/diary/158832 : • Post about spam in OSM 2019-05-03: “Behold Cassandra” • (this is the single post about spam in OSM that was NOT removed. Yet.) 10. https://www.stopforumspam.com/forum/viewtopic.php?pid=50404#p50404 : • Email to TomH + Firefishy 2019-09-16: opportunity to use/test a k-anonymity SFS API (zero response) In Summary:– OSM == OpenStreetMap DWG == Data Working Group https://www.openstreetmap.org/diary https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/alexkemp/diary https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcissism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cabal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rat_king https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Going_postal A bunch of OSM folks, joined at the tail by the common mental disturbance known as Narcissism, got butt-hurt by (in part) the fact of my pointing out that they were malignant narcissists, and went postal on me. Unfortunately for myself, they Ⅰ. had controls of levers that allowed them to remove Diary posts that, in some cases, had taken me more than 11 hours to research & write, and Ⅱ. were malignant narcissists, which meant that they would do everything in their power to harm me. If you stand to one side and kind of squint at all of this, and after reading all the available posts (above), and especially after reading the extract from the email sent to me by one of the executives of the DWG (bottom), you now need to re-join your bottom jaw to your top-jaw. And yes, this really is Real Life. And it is about to get worse, since it appears that some of these folks may be engaging in financial mismanagement (at best) and/or corruption (at worst)… A. https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/Nakaner/diary/42916 : • Post about 2017 OSMF Board Elections 2017-12-08: “analysis of the candidates” • Heather Leson: “rarely active mapper … member of the HOT US Inc. … would like to introduce a strong code of conduct with an enforcement … emphasized her fundraising skills on the HOT board but did not collect any money” … et al • Emails from Nicolas Chavent (co-founder of HOT) + Severin Menard (long-time member of HOT) reveal effects of a code of conduct complaint within HOT, plus it running out of money whilst Leson was in charge B. https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/SeverinGeo/diary/42854 : • Post in OSM Diary 2017-12-01: “Leaving the HOT US Corporation” • Severin Menard: “secrecy and lies were core within the board toward the membership … End of September 2015, HOT US Inc should still have approximately USD $152,000 for activities still to be done or to be returned for one large multiple years project, while the bank account was around only USD $10K.” C. https://www.openstreetmap.o
Re: [OSM-talk] no-go-areas
I've certainly tagged plenty of natural=cliff (and I'm not done yet), there's lots of them around me. So perhaps hazard=chasm could deprecate as one value of the proposed key hazard, deferring to natural=cliff. Still, there are plenty of objective, not-going-away-soon, not-politically-sensitive hazards on Earth. We should map and render them, but to do so, we might resurrect a more-modern version of the hazard tag proposal. Or anything else that would do the job. These do seem like good, smart things to map. Good dialog, thank you everybody. SteveA > On Dec 31, 2019, at 10:59 AM, Mateusz Konieczny > wrote: > > 31 Dec 2019, 19:35 by stevea...@softworkers.com: > Really? Actual, real-life hazards like [chasm > natural=cliff? ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] no-go-areas
31 Dec 2019, 19:35 by stevea...@softworkers.com: > Really? Actual, real-life hazards like [chasm > natural=cliff?___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] no-go-areas
Really? Actual, real-life hazards like [chasm, radiation, rock_slide, minefield...] are not worthy of that tag on a node and some Carto-code to toss up a triangle-! icon on our map? Where's the harm? (Literally). Perhaps we implement these without including (or specifically EXcluding) the more "sensitive" ones which are considered "subjective." We can't be "too subjective" if we aren't subjective at all. But, explicitly objective hazards do seem worthy to map. Many (most?) like radiation, live minefields, military bombing areas, sharp bluffs / cliffs are not transient at all and would likely remain as long-term hazards. I think we should revisit this rather than dismiss it matter-of-factly as "oh, that hazard thing that pops its head up every year or so." SteveA ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] no-go-areas
This question rears its head every year or so & the conclusions are
always the same:
Far too subjective, Far too transient. Best left to be shown as an
overlay by local authorities.
My police force produce both crime & road traffic collision maps.
DaveF
On 31/12/2019 15:14, Martin Trautmann wrote:
hi all,
did you read about the Suisse tourist couple which was shot because they
got lost in a Brasilian favela?
NZZ (Neue Zürcher Zeitung) from Tuesday 31.12.2019. ("Schweizer Ehepaar
bei Irrfahrt duch Favela in Brasilien
angeschossen")
Other examples are e.g. Mafia areas within Kosovo - or name your own
home town no-go area.
Is there any option to mark certain areas in order to bypass routing
whenever possible?
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Re: [OSM-talk] no-go-areas
On Tue, 31 Dec 2019 16:14:30 +0100
Martin Trautmann wrote:
> hi all,
>
> did you read about the Suisse tourist couple which was shot because
> they got lost in a Brasilian favela?
>
> NZZ (Neue Zürcher Zeitung) from Tuesday 31.12.2019. ("Schweizer
> Ehepaar bei Irrfahrt duch Favela in Brasilien
> angeschossen")
>
> Other examples are e.g. Mafia areas within Kosovo - or name your own
> home town no-go area.
>
> Is there any option to mark certain areas in order to bypass routing
> whenever possible?
>
The problem is that most of these "no-go" areas are subjective, both in
boundary and in level of danger. If you ask a half-dozen people, you
might get a half-dozen responses ranging from "I go there all the time"
to "The police don't patrol in less than platoon strength".
--
Mark
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Re: [OSM-talk] no-go-areas
As a long-time OSMer, I offer perspective on two "dangerous areas" near me, one past, one present. On my university campus (University of California) there WAS an area in a meadow which was grazed by cattle (both from the original landuse from a century ago and presently, as these meadows are grazed by cattle even today, at a university of tens of thousands of students). A decade and longer ago, there was a swale (low-lying area) which I believe was human-converted into a sort of reservoir for watering cattle, but it had steep sides, was quite deep and could be impossible for humans or cattle to escape if they fell into it, especially when empty / dry. Not by me, but this was marked on OSM as a "no go area," which I always found curious, as that wasn't an explicitly defined tag. I'm nearly certain that today, this dangerous area has been "remedied" (filled in with dirt) and no longer exists as a hazard on campus. In OSM, there is no longer anything (node, way) in the area to tag as such; it has effectively disappeared from both the real world and our map. Also near me is a "beach" (it sort of is, sort of isn't) which is a dangerous place to ocean-swim, it is known locally as the "Toilet Bowl" as it has nasty churning surf and undertow currents which I believe have drowned at least one person. When I heard local news that such a drowning occurred yet again, I endeavored to tag a node there with name=Toilet Bowl (dangerous area, no swimming) + swimming=no + hazard=yes. (Yes, I know that violates "name is name only"). Also, there isn't a "physical" tag (like natural=beach, as that is unusual, though not wholly wrong, on a node). Yet I couldn't help but feel that hazard=yes, a "draft / underway proposal" (since 2007?! really?) is insufficient: the value "yes" isn't documented in the proposal, and others listed there, like chasm, radiation, rock_slide, minefield, playing_children... didn't fit a dangerous swimming area. Plus, the hazard tag doesn't render (a triangle with exclamation point might be a good starting icon). I believe OSM needs better, explicit tagging to identify dangerous, hazardous areas, and Carto should render these. There are many different kinds of these, from those I just noted, to "high-crime area" and what others might consider sensitive or political. (We shouldn't be afraid to say that an explicit hazard exists if one does). A proposal that seems to have gotten stuck for 12 years seems it's a good starting point, can it be resurrected? OSM mapping these would be another welcome feature in our map, as I know of no other general-purpose map (that IS how many use OSM) which identifies these sorts of "everyday" hazards. Think about it: a hazardous situation might find YOU one day, and you might be very glad you saw this on a map beforehand so you could avoid it. SteveA California ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] no-go-areas
Wouldn't that just be a crime map or a bias towards areas vs others.
Sounds like an osm use case more than a needed tag
On Tue., Dec. 31, 2019, 10:18 a.m. Martin Trautmann, wrote:
> hi all,
>
> did you read about the Suisse tourist couple which was shot because they
> got lost in a Brasilian favela?
>
> NZZ (Neue Zürcher Zeitung) from Tuesday 31.12.2019. ("Schweizer Ehepaar
> bei Irrfahrt duch Favela in Brasilien
> angeschossen")
>
> Other examples are e.g. Mafia areas within Kosovo - or name your own
> home town no-go area.
>
> Is there any option to mark certain areas in order to bypass routing
> whenever possible?
>
> ___
> talk mailing list
> talk@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>
___
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[OSM-talk] no-go-areas
hi all,
did you read about the Suisse tourist couple which was shot because they
got lost in a Brasilian favela?
NZZ (Neue Zürcher Zeitung) from Tuesday 31.12.2019. ("Schweizer Ehepaar
bei Irrfahrt duch Favela in Brasilien
angeschossen")
Other examples are e.g. Mafia areas within Kosovo - or name your own
home town no-go area.
Is there any option to mark certain areas in order to bypass routing
whenever possible?
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