Re: [OSM-talk] Admin boundaries - data consumers
On 11/10/2013 01:45 PM, Arun Ganesh wrote: In India the law requires that the external boundaries of the country include parts of Kashmir that is now under control of foreign countries. This regularly causes issues when OSM is demoed publicly at institutes or to government officials. Also the startup community is apprehensive of using openstreetmap because of this issue. In this case, its the law that is broken, but adapting OSM to be able to handle such political challenges is more feasible than fixing the law. Easy: take everything from OSM but the borders and supply your own favourite borders from a separate source with a nice big Indian government stamp on it. Render to taste. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Admin boundaries - data consumers
Easy: take everything from OSM but the borders and supply your own favourite borders from a separate source with a nice big Indian government stamp on it. Render to taste. Having new tile layer on osm.org that does not have any international boundaries (or hiding those that are disputed) would solve the issue much more easily rather than requiring everyone affected to setup their own tileservers. This issue affects half the global internet population and is a definite barrier against the global adoption of this project. -- Arun Ganesh (planemad) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Planemad http://j.mp/ArunGanesh ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Admin boundaries - data consumers
Hi Does India have a local osm chapter? If yes, this would be a perfect place to host the tiles. Many local chapters host tile servers. Thanks Jason On Monday, November 11, 2013, Arun Ganesh wrote: Easy: take everything from OSM but the borders and supply your own favourite borders from a separate source with a nice big Indian government stamp on it. Render to taste. Having new tile layer on osm.org that does not have any international boundaries (or hiding those that are disputed) would solve the issue much more easily rather than requiring everyone affected to setup their own tileservers. This issue affects half the global internet population and is a definite barrier against the global adoption of this project. -- Arun Ganesh (planemad) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Planemad http://j.mp/ArunGanesh ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Admin boundaries - data consumers
OSM is a global and worldwide project and cannot deal with all local issues. For example, in France some names/routes are trade marks and for this reason should not be visible on maps unless authorized. So what ? Should we remove these routes from the osm.org default rendering ? Create one more rendering just to deal with this ? OSM is a data project, and these data allow to make maps, not one single map, but maps. If the default map does not fit one need, just use the data and the tools to make your own. That's what we did with these trademarked routes... they are hidden on OSM-FR tiles. Adoption of the project is also to reuse the data, not the basic services provided by osm.org servers. 2013/11/11 Arun Ganesh arun.plane...@gmail.com Easy: take everything from OSM but the borders and supply your own favourite borders from a separate source with a nice big Indian government stamp on it. Render to taste. Having new tile layer on osm.org that does not have any international boundaries (or hiding those that are disputed) would solve the issue much more easily rather than requiring everyone affected to setup their own tileservers. This issue affects half the global internet population and is a definite barrier against the global adoption of this project. -- Christian Quest - OpenStreetMap France ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Admin boundaries - data consumers
2013/11/11 Christian Quest cqu...@openstreetmap.fr OSM is a data project, and these data allow to make maps, not one single map, but maps. If the default map does not fit one need, just use the data and the tools to make your own. That's what we did with these trademarked routes... they are hidden on OSM-FR tiles. I think it is an interesting proposal to put an alternative mapstyle on osm.org without the admin boundaries. cheers, Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Admin boundaries - data consumers
On 11/11/2013 06:02 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: I think it is an interesting proposal to put an alternative mapstyle on osm.org http://osm.org without the admin boundaries. While a map without borders is quite a powerful philosophical statement, is it really part of Openstreetmap's core role ? As Christian said, let users answer their political and artistic urges through using the Openstreetmap data - let a thousand renders bloom ! A new map style as a core service would be yet another nitpicking topic, mired in mailing list discussions... Openstreetmap's strength is that only the data requires consensus - each user has the freedom to produce his ideal rendering of the data without having to ask anyone's permission... Let them take advantage of it ! ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Admin boundaries - data consumers
On 11/11/2013 06:02 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: I think it is an interesting proposal to put an alternative mapstyle on osm.org without the admin boundaries. While a map without borders is quite a powerful philosophical statement, is it really part of Openstreetmap's core role ? As Christian said, let users answer their political and artistic urges through using the Openstreetmap data - let a thousand renders bloom ! A new map style as a core service would be yet another nitpicking topic, mired in mailing list discussions... Openstreetmap's strength is that only the data requires consensus - each user has the freedom to produce his ideal rendering of the data without having to ask anyone's permission... Let them take advantage of it ! So, someone could build a renderer for openbordermap? nick *** WARNING: This email (including any attachments) may contain legally privileged, confidential or private information and may be protected by copyright. You may only use it if you are the person(s) it was intended to be sent to and if you use it in an authorised way. No one is allowed to use, review, alter, transmit, disclose, distribute, print or copy this email without appropriate authority. If this email was not intended for you and was sent to you by mistake, please telephone or email me immediately, destroy any hardcopies of this email and delete it and any copies of it from your computer system. Any right which the sender may have under copyright law, and any legal privilege and confidentiality attached to this email is not waived or destroyed by that mistake. It is your responsibility to ensure that this email does not contain and is not affected by computer viruses, defects or interference by third parties or replication problems (including incompatibility with your computer system). Opinions contained in this email do not necessarily reflect the opinions of the Department of Transport and Main Roads, or endorsed organisations utilising the same infrastructure. *** ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Admin boundaries - data consumers
On Sat, Nov 09, 2013 at 05:59:19PM +, Craig Wallace wrote: Note MySociety do not use boundaries from OSM for the UK for their projects. Instead they just use boundaries from OS OpenData. I think this is an example of where a separate database makes sense. ie with the complete, up to date OS OpenData boundaries, in a format compatible with OSM. Yes, some of the OS OpenData boundaries have been added to OSM. But they are very incomplete/inconsistent, and often accidentally edited or broken etc. And probably out of date if the official boundaries have changed anywhere. So generally not as useful or reliable as just using the OS OpenData. This will not be fixed by seperating out the boundarys. If MySociety is interested in up to date, complete and non broken boundarys it could sponsor a simple monitoring tool for boundaries. As soon as there is a hint something is broken there are hundrets of mappers interested in fixing. Flo -- Florian Lohoff f...@zz.de signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Admin boundaries - data consumers
In my opinion this is an example where OSM data is broken and should be fixed. Andrew In India the law requires that the external boundaries of the country include parts of Kashmir that is now under control of foreign countries. This regularly causes issues when OSM is demoed publicly at institutes or to government officials. Also the startup community is apprehensive of using openstreetmap because of this issue. In this case, its the law that is broken, but adapting OSM to be able to handle such political challenges is more feasible than fixing the law. Google, Bing and other map providers display a different set of boundaries based on the laws of the user's country. But for OSM, it would probably a very simple solution if we have a lowzoom tileset which don't have any international borders. Would that be a good idea? -- Arun Ganesh (planemad) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Planemad http://j.mp/ArunGanesh ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Admin boundaries - data consumers
Am 10.11.2013 13:45, schrieb Arun Ganesh: In my opinion this is an example where OSM data is broken and should be fixed. Andrew In India the law requires that the external boundaries of the country include parts of Kashmir that is now under control of foreign countries. This regularly causes issues when OSM is demoed publicly at institutes or to government officials. Also the startup community is apprehensive of using openstreetmap because of this issue. In this case, its the law that is broken, but adapting OSM to be able to handle such political challenges is more feasible than fixing the law. Google, Bing and other map providers display a different set of boundaries based on the laws of the user's country. But for OSM, it would probably a very simple solution if we have a lowzoom tileset which don't have any international borders. Would that be a good idea? If you need wrong (according to the facts) data for legal reasons, then patch the osm dataset with the official boundaries here and render tiles from it. Rendering tiles isn't that difficult, at least if we're talking about demoing and so on. Use osm, replace the indian boundary by the legal version and render tiles from it. If you still keep the original stylesheet you would need only to replace the affected tiles there by your own (if it's feasible for the demo to use the original osm tiles - according to the tile usage policy). I don't think this is a problem with OSM in particular, but with every correct dataset not originating in india. regards Peter ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
[OSM-talk] Admin boundaries - data consumers
Hi All, A few days ago there was a thread about the pros/cons of moving admin boundaries to a new database. I'm not going to give my opinion on this as the thread has now fizzled out, but I will suggest that decisions like this should involve as many of our end data users as possible (we have moved beyond a small isolated project). One such user is mySoicety. Check out the video of their MapIt Global talk at http://lanyrd.com/2013/sotm/scpkhg/ to see how they use boundaries from OSM. Perhaps some way of tracking our data consumers would be useful. Or maybe we need a way for them to say which tags they are interested in so that they can receive mail just about these. Regards, Rob ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Admin boundaries - data consumers
On Sat, Nov 09, 2013 at 03:25:35PM +, Rob Nickerson wrote: A few days ago there was a thread about the pros/cons of moving admin boundaries to a new database. I'm not going to give my opinion on this as the thread has now fizzled out, but I will suggest that decisions like this should involve as many of our end data users as possible (we have moved beyond a small isolated project). One such user is mySoicety. Check out the video of their MapIt Global talk at http://lanyrd.com/2013/sotm/scpkhg/ to see how they use boundaries from OSM. Perhaps some way of tracking our data consumers would be useful. Or maybe we need a way for them to say which tags they are interested in so that they can receive mail just about these. That's the wrong way around. If you are using OSM data it is your job to keep abreast of developments in OSM. A volunteer project like OSM can't keep track of all their customers the way a commercial company might. That's not to say that we should change things willy-nilly, we should announce changes beforehand etc. But we do that on our mailing lists etc. And yes, that puts a lot of burden on the users of OSM data, but they get it for free, so there. (Of course there are companies who will do this job for you, ie follow OSM development while maintaining stable data formats etc. to their customers.) Jochen -- Jochen Topf joc...@remote.org http://www.jochentopf.com/ +49-721-388298 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Admin boundaries - data consumers
That does come across as a little arrogant, Jochen. The mappers and the data consumers need each other; neither can flourish without the other. A symbiotic model would be more accurate. As you say, we shouldn't change things willy-nilly, but to say bluntly it's your problem to all data consumers and to express such a dismissive attitude towards their feedback is misrepresenting the relationship somewhat. Colin On 2013-11-09 18:25, Jochen Topf wrote: On Sat, Nov 09, 2013 at 03:25:35PM +, Rob Nickerson wrote: A few days ago there was a thread about the pros/cons of moving admin boundaries to a new database. I'm not going to give my opinion on this as the thread has now fizzled out, but I will suggest that decisions like this should involve as many of our end data users as possible (we have moved beyond a small isolated project). One such user is mySoicety. Check out the video of their MapIt Global talk at http://lanyrd.com/2013/sotm/scpkhg/ [1] to see how they use boundaries from OSM. Perhaps some way of tracking our data consumers would be useful. Or maybe we need a way for them to say which tags they are interested in so that they can receive mail just about these. That's the wrong way around. If you are using OSM data it is your job to keep abreast of developments in OSM. A volunteer project like OSM can't keep track of all their customers the way a commercial company might. That's not to say that we should change things willy-nilly, we should announce changes beforehand etc. But we do that on our mailing lists etc. And yes, that puts a lot of burden on the users of OSM data, but they get it for free, so there. (Of course there are companies who will do this job for you, ie follow OSM development while maintaining stable data formats etc. to their customers.) Jochen Links: -- [1] http://lanyrd.com/2013/sotm/scpkhg/ ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Admin boundaries - data consumers
On 2013-11-09 15:25, Rob Nickerson wrote: Hi All, A few days ago there was a thread about the pros/cons of moving admin boundaries to a new database. I'm not going to give my opinion on this as the thread has now fizzled out, but I will suggest that decisions like this should involve as many of our end data users as possible (we have moved beyond a small isolated project). One such user is mySoicety. Check out the video of their MapIt Global talk at http://lanyrd.com/2013/sotm/scpkhg/ to see how they use boundaries from OSM. Note MySociety do not use boundaries from OSM for the UK for their projects. Instead they just use boundaries from OS OpenData. I think this is an example of where a separate database makes sense. ie with the complete, up to date OS OpenData boundaries, in a format compatible with OSM. Yes, some of the OS OpenData boundaries have been added to OSM. But they are very incomplete/inconsistent, and often accidentally edited or broken etc. And probably out of date if the official boundaries have changed anywhere. So generally not as useful or reliable as just using the OS OpenData. Craig ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Admin boundaries - data consumers
On Nov 9, 2013 5:39 PM, Jochen Topf joc...@remote.org wrote; On Sat, Nov 09, 2013 at 03:25:35PM +, Rob Nickerson wrote: Perhaps some way of tracking our data consumers would be useful. Or maybe we need a way for them to say which tags they are interested in so that they can receive mail just about these. That's the wrong way around. If you are using OSM data it is your job to keep abreast of developments in OSM. A volunteer project like OSM can't keep track of all their customers the way a commercial company might. That's not to say that we should change things willy-nilly, we should announce changes beforehand etc. But we do that on our mailing lists etc. And yes, that puts a lot of burden on the users of OSM data, but they get it for free, so there. At the moment it is indeed not that easy for data consumers to keep track of changes. The tagging mailing list had quite high traffic, and most posts there are not directly relevant for data consumers. I have been thinking about how we can improve this situation. Would it be an idea to create a separate mailing list that just serves to announce changes in the tagging scheme? That way we can separate the discussion on creating tagging schemes (which data consumers can ignore if they wish) from the announcements of new schemes. Typically changes correspond to accepted proposals on the tagging mailing list. We could add to the procedure of proposing tags that the proposer should make an announcement to this list when hits proposal is accepted. -- Matthijs ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Admin boundaries - data consumers
I am sorry if I came across as arrogant or dismissive. This is absolutely not my intention. Actually I think we are in violent agreement here, mappers and data consumers must talk and help each other. And where we do that is on our mailing lists, forums, etc. What I was arguing against is somehow feeling responsible for data users who take our data, never talk to us and then think it is our job to tell them when something changes. That is how I understood Rob's argument and that isn't something I feel we have to do. If, to keep with Rob's example, MySociety wants to know about boundary tagging changes in OSM, they can get this info by participating in the OSM community and I'd welcome their input as a user of the data. But they have to be active themselves in at least a small way, it is not our job to somehow keep track of what they are using from OSM and tell them if something changes that they would want to know about. Jochen On Sat, Nov 09, 2013 at 06:55:53PM +0100, Colin Smale wrote: Date: Sat, 09 Nov 2013 18:55:53 +0100 From: Colin Smale colin.sm...@xs4all.nl To: talk@openstreetmap.org Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Admin boundaries - data consumers That does come across as a little arrogant, Jochen. The mappers and the data consumers need each other; neither can flourish without the other. A symbiotic model would be more accurate. As you say, we shouldn't change things willy-nilly, but to say bluntly it's your problem to all data consumers and to express such a dismissive attitude towards their feedback is misrepresenting the relationship somewhat. Colin On 2013-11-09 18:25, Jochen Topf wrote: On Sat, Nov 09, 2013 at 03:25:35PM +, Rob Nickerson wrote: A few days ago there was a thread about the pros/cons of moving admin boundaries to a new database. I'm not going to give my opinion on this as the thread has now fizzled out, but I will suggest that decisions like this should involve as many of our end data users as possible (we have moved beyond a small isolated project). One such user is mySoicety. Check out the video of their MapIt Global talk at http://lanyrd.com/2013/sotm/scpkhg/ [1] to see how they use boundaries from OSM. Perhaps some way of tracking our data consumers would be useful. Or maybe we need a way for them to say which tags they are interested in so that they can receive mail just about these. That's the wrong way around. If you are using OSM data it is your job to keep abreast of developments in OSM. A volunteer project like OSM can't keep track of all their customers the way a commercial company might. That's not to say that we should change things willy-nilly, we should announce changes beforehand etc. But we do that on our mailing lists etc. And yes, that puts a lot of burden on the users of OSM data, but they get it for free, so there. (Of course there are companies who will do this job for you, ie follow OSM development while maintaining stable data formats etc. to their customers.) Jochen Links: -- [1] http://lanyrd.com/2013/sotm/scpkhg/ ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk -- Jochen Topf joc...@remote.org http://www.jochentopf.com/ +49-721-388298 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Admin boundaries - data consumers
On Sat, Nov 09, 2013 at 07:28:16PM +, Matthijs Melissen wrote: On Nov 9, 2013 5:39 PM, Jochen Topf joc...@remote.org wrote; On Sat, Nov 09, 2013 at 03:25:35PM +, Rob Nickerson wrote: Perhaps some way of tracking our data consumers would be useful. Or maybe we need a way for them to say which tags they are interested in so that they can receive mail just about these. That's the wrong way around. If you are using OSM data it is your job to keep abreast of developments in OSM. A volunteer project like OSM can't keep track of all their customers the way a commercial company might. That's not to say that we should change things willy-nilly, we should announce changes beforehand etc. But we do that on our mailing lists etc. And yes, that puts a lot of burden on the users of OSM data, but they get it for free, so there. At the moment it is indeed not that easy for data consumers to keep track of changes. The tagging mailing list had quite high traffic, and most posts there are not directly relevant for data consumers. I have been thinking about how we can improve this situation. Would it be an idea to create a separate mailing list that just serves to announce changes in the tagging scheme? That way we can separate the discussion on creating tagging schemes (which data consumers can ignore if they wish) from the announcements of new schemes. Typically changes correspond to accepted proposals on the tagging mailing list. We could add to the procedure of proposing tags that the proposer should make an announcement to this list when hits proposal is accepted. Unfortunately the tagging discussions and voting doesn't actually matter that much. It is not important what some people think or have agreed on what tags should or should not be used in what situations. What is important to data users is how the tags are *actually* used in the database. And I don't see that much correlation between actual use and this proposal procedure. A change in an editor configuration might have more impact than a vote in the proposal process. This situation isn't great, but it is what we have. Data users have to familiarize themselves with what's there. They have to read wiki pages, look at taginfo, look at discussions on mailing lists and they have to try out different interpretations of the data and find out what works for them. There is no shortcut to this process. There are many ways of making this easier, one is writing better wiki documentation, one is finding better ways of putting these information into taginfo. But highlighting results from a proposal process that doesn't matter all that much, isn't one of them. (btw I would welcome some university research on whether my assertions above are actually true. I'd love to have some data that tells us how tagging in the actual database is driven by tagging proposals, or editor choices, or people just inventing tags they like, or local fashions etc.) Jochen -- Jochen Topf joc...@remote.org http://www.jochentopf.com/ +49-721-388298 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Admin boundaries - data consumers
Jochen Topf said: I am sorry if I came across as arrogant or dismissive. This is absolutely not my intention. No offence taken. As you say, we are in agreement here, mappers and data consumers must talk and help each other. What I was arguing against is somehow feeling responsible for data users who take our data, never talk to us and then think it is our job to tell them when something changes. That is how I understood Rob's argument Perhaps I misled you as I agree 100% that the relationship has to be two way. I'm just wondering aloud how we can improve out side of that conversation / relationship. As we all know the mailing lists can be quite unfriendly to external parties. It's an interesting question as we need to balance providing data consumers with advanced notice of big changes and still be able to act quickly. My experience with developing tagging schemas is that it helps to slow the process down, giving everyone time to consider the tag and provide comments. I would have liked more involvement from someone who actually uses the data (in this case a Routing service provider) but as you say they have to be willing to join the conversation too. We cannot slow things down too much :-) Best, Rob ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Admin boundaries - data consumers
On Sun, 10 Nov 2013 02:59:19 Craig Wallace wrote: Note MySociety do not use boundaries from OSM for the UK for their projects. Instead they just use boundaries from OS OpenData. I think this is an example of where a separate database makes sense. ie with the complete, up to date OS OpenData boundaries, in a format compatible with OSM. In my opinion this is an example where OSM data is broken and should be fixed. Andrew ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
