Re: [OSM-talk] "Incorrect speed limit" anonymous notes - who is behind that?

[Peter Wendorff]

Hi Per,
thanks for your reply to the thread here.

My suggestion regarding GPS traces would be twofold:

1) it would be great to have more gps traces alltogether in general, so
a general upload of traces would be ideal, but it requires teaching the
users about the danger of it, and uploading traces should probably be
under a collective account of your company to obfuscate personal home
locations and such. Another idea here would be to cut the first and last
parts of traces to obfuscate this.

2) Whenever a speed limit has been submitted the note you create from
that should ideally link to the corresponding gps track. This would
enable to get the direction directly (no heading necessary) and - if the
speed is included by at least relative timestamps in the trace - the
speed limit might be better to locate if the driver adjusts his speed
according to the current limit (which often is the case I think).

Both of this requires a really careful information of the user as those
data in theory may contain or leak private information.

regards
Peter

Am 08.09.2014 um 17:05 schrieb Per Rosengren:
> Hi all!
> 
> I work together with Erik Matsson who also have written in this
> thread (in August). For those of you who haven’t read his message, we
> work at Appello that owns the navigation application Wisepilot. It is
> through Wisepilot those anonymous notes have been posted.
> 
> First of all, thanks for your input. All ideas about how we can
> improve the quality of the notes are very much appreciated.
> 
> We have made some first changes on the server side of our application
> based on your input. We will also make further improvements as we are
> releasing new client versions.
> 
> We have changed so that only registered and authenticated users are
> allowed to post notes for now. Hopefully we can later allow anonymous
> notes to be posted again when we have made some more improvements to
> prevent spam notes (sanity checks, more useful info in the notes and
> provide the users with more information about what happens when they
> post a note).
> 
> Notes about wrong/missing speed limit now looks like in the example
> below (always in English). We changed the message to make it clearer
> that the reported speed is what it should be changed to in the map
> data. We also made it clear that it is reported using Wisepilot and
> added a link to our site if someone wants to contact us. = 
> Reported and assumed correct speed limit is 30 km/h. Reported using
> Wisepilot map reporter Created by www.appello.com =
> 
> If a user tries to report speed limits like 15, 25, 35 km/h we ignore
> the note and do not post it (still possible when mph). Also, in
> upcoming releases of the client we will try to make something smart
> so that km/h or mph is automatically selected depending on the user’s
> position (at least make it more clear what one is reporting).
> 
> Like Andreas Vilén suspected, our default position was sometimes used
> when posting a note. It is users who have not yet gotten a real GPS
> fix (probably in combination with that they do not understand the
> reporting functionality). In coming releases of our client we will
> add a check in the clients that it is not a simulated position but a
> real GPS fix (we also think of adding the GPS accuracy to the note).
> To prevent old clients from reporting the default positions we now
> ignore notes with a position that is near the default position.
> 
> In coming client releases we will also check the heading and add that
> to the notes as well (like Christian Quest suggested, N, NW, etc).
> 
> If you have ideas related to sharing GPS traces it would be
> interesting to hear about them, as this is a feature we plan to add.
> 
> Don’t hesitate to contact us if you have questions or ideas of how we
> can make things better.
> 
> Best regards, Pelle
> 
> 
> -- Per Rosengren Deputy Head of Engineering
> 
> Location: Appello | Göteborg | Sweden Phone: +4670-6858253 Mail:
> per.roseng...@appello.com Web:
> www.appello.com
>
> 
> 
> [Description: cid:image001.png@01CD2D3A.F4FA4D50]
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [OSM-talk] "Incorrect speed limit" anonymous notes - who is behind that?

[Norbert Wenzel]

On 09/08/2014 05:05 PM, Per Rosengren wrote:
> Like Andreas Vilén suspected, our default position was sometimes used when 
> posting a note. It is users who have not yet gotten a real GPS fix (probably 
> in combination with that they do not understand the reporting functionality). 
> In coming releases of our client we will add a check in the clients that it 
> is not a simulated position but a real GPS fix (we also think of adding the 
> GPS accuracy to the note). To prevent old clients from reporting the default 
> positions we now ignore notes with a position that is near the default 
> position.
> 
> In coming client releases we will also check the heading and add that to the 
> notes as well (like Christian Quest suggested, N, NW, etc).

Are you actually routing in your software? So would you be able to say
(or help the user say by suggesting the street names around him)
something like "No turn left into Foo coming from Baz?" by knowing which
street your user currently is on. Since I found mostly the "No turn
possible" messages completely off. To be honest I've not seen a single
message that could be actually resolved (from my desk) since there was
either no crossing or too many of them near the note, so it was simply
impossible to guess what crossing should be fixed.

And, if you know which street your user is on, could you do some more
checks (maybe on your server and not on the users device) when speed
limits are reported for streets with variable speed limits? There may be
a speed limit when the users passes the sign but that limit might change
only minutes later, so these notes are just creating noise at the moment.

Thanks for posting updates here and trying to improve your reporting
feature.

Norbert


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Re: [OSM-talk] "Incorrect speed limit" anonymous notes - who is behind that?

[Jóhannes Birgir Jensson]

Not that I want to create even more problems but 35 km/h is a typical 
max speed in many rural towns in Iceland. These are often 4-5 street 
towns with a major road going through 1 of them so they see the need to 
severely limit the speed.


It is up to each municipality to select max speed and some of them are 
in the ?5 ranges.


Thanks for the communication and hope it all works well for everyone. 
Still haven't seen a single Wisepilot node being created in Iceland, 
Faroes or Botswana yet.


--Jói


Þann 08.09.2014 15:05, Per Rosengren reit:


If a user tries to report speed limits like 15, 25, 35 km/h we ignore
the note and do not post it (still possible when mph). Also, in
upcoming releases of the client we will try to make something smart so
that km/h or mph is automatically selected depending on the user’s
position (at least make it more clear what one is reporting).



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Re: [OSM-talk] "Incorrect speed limit" anonymous notes - who is behind that?

[Per Rosengren]

Hi all!

I work together with Erik Matsson who also have written in this thread (in 
August). For those of you who haven’t read his message, we work at Appello that 
owns the navigation application Wisepilot. It is through Wisepilot those 
anonymous notes have been posted.

First of all, thanks for your input. All ideas about how we can improve the 
quality of the notes are very much appreciated.

We have made some first changes on the server side of our application based on 
your input. We will also make further improvements as we are releasing new 
client versions.

We have changed so that only registered and authenticated users are allowed to 
post notes for now. Hopefully we can later allow anonymous notes to be posted 
again when we have made some more improvements to prevent spam notes (sanity 
checks, more useful info in the notes and provide the users with more 
information about what happens when they post a note).

Notes about wrong/missing speed limit now looks like in the example below 
(always in English). We changed the message to make it clearer that the 
reported speed is what it should be changed to in the map data. We also made it 
clear that it is reported using Wisepilot and added a link to our site if 
someone wants to contact us.
=
Reported and assumed correct speed limit is 30 km/h.
Reported using Wisepilot map reporter
Created by www.appello.com
=

If a user tries to report speed limits like 15, 25, 35 km/h we ignore the note 
and do not post it (still possible when mph). Also, in upcoming releases of the 
client we will try to make something smart so that km/h or mph is automatically 
selected depending on the user’s position (at least make it more clear what one 
is reporting).

Like Andreas Vilén suspected, our default position was sometimes used when 
posting a note. It is users who have not yet gotten a real GPS fix (probably in 
combination with that they do not understand the reporting functionality). In 
coming releases of our client we will add a check in the clients that it is not 
a simulated position but a real GPS fix (we also think of adding the GPS 
accuracy to the note). To prevent old clients from reporting the default 
positions we now ignore notes with a position that is near the default position.

In coming client releases we will also check the heading and add that to the 
notes as well (like Christian Quest suggested, N, NW, etc).

If you have ideas related to sharing GPS traces it would be interesting to hear 
about them, as this is a feature we plan to add.

Don’t hesitate to contact us if you have questions or ideas of how we can make 
things better.

Best regards,
Pelle


--
Per Rosengren
Deputy Head of Engineering

Location: Appello | Göteborg | Sweden
Phone: +4670-6858253
Mail: per.roseng...@appello.com
Web: 
www.appello.com


[Description: cid:image001.png@01CD2D3A.F4FA4D50]


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Re: [OSM-talk] "Incorrect speed limit" anonymous notes - who is behind that?

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

> Il giorno 03/set/2014, alle ore 21:21, Paul Johnson  ha 
> scritto:
> 
> 3mph / 5km/h is also a common enough speed limit that this value appears in 
> the SHS as a common value for speed limit signs (usually used in scales, 
> unusually tight service plazas, etc).


I've also seen 5km/h limits in Italy, eg on private ground, at ferry terminals 
and at the customs

cheers,
Martin
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Re: [OSM-talk] "Incorrect speed limit" anonymous notes - who is behind that?

[Paul Johnson]

On Mon, Aug 18, 2014 at 2:02 AM, Philip Barnes  wrote:

> I am aware that the USA has speed limits in multiples of 5 mph. I was
> suggesting that the app should use the GPS, or settings, to get some
> sensible locaiised values for speed limits values and mph/kph.
>

3mph / 5km/h is also a common enough speed limit that this value appears in
the SHS as a common value for speed limit signs (usually used in scales,
unusually tight service plazas, etc).
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Re: [OSM-talk] "Incorrect speed limit" anonymous notes - who is behind that?

[Andreas Vilén]

Is the app centering on central Stockholm when the gps on the mobile device
isn't activated?

There have been created probably about 100 notes on the exact same location
in central Stockholm in all kinds of languages, probably by people trying
to report actual errors, but don't realize their gps is deactivated.

Maybe you could stop reports from being sent when the unit's gps is
deactivated?

/Andreas


On Thu, Aug 21, 2014 at 10:56 AM, Erik Mattsson 
wrote:

>  Enabling users to submit GPS traces is definitely in our to-do list,
> unfortunately it didn’t make it into the first iteration.
>
>
>
> The position of the note is stored as soon as the user opens the report
> tab, so the user can edit it for a while and when it is sent it’s still the
> position when he opened the menu that gets sent with the report. Including
> the heading should be fairly simple, we have also planned to include the
> position accuracy in the notes.
>
>
>
> Thank you for your feedback.
>
>
>
> //Erik
>
>
>
> *From:* Christian Quest [mailto:cqu...@openstreetmap.fr]
> *Sent:* den 21 augusti 2014 08:35
> *Cc:* OpenStreetMap
> *Subject:* Re: [OSM-talk] "Incorrect speed limit" anonymous notes - who
> is behind that?
>
>
>
> More (automatic) details in the notes could be useful.
>
>
>
> For example: add the heading (something like N, NW, etc)...
>
> Also make sure you're creating the note at the earliest position and not
> when the report is saved/confirmed.
>
>
>
> Have you considered sharing GPS traces ?
>
> This would be another major datafeed to improve OSM data quality...
>
>
>
>
>
> 2014-08-19 16:47 GMT+02:00 :
>
> Hi Eric
> Thanks for your comments,  I have been having a play with wisepilot and do
> quite like it.
>
> Pleased to see you are addressing the issues we have pointed out.
>
> I did find the login to osm after i used it, but used with care I found it
> excellent. It was a quiet time so I was able to stop where the limits
> changed and was then able to use the notes to indicate the points to split
> the ways.
>
> The fact I then used them helped, not so easy if it had been someone else.
>
> Thanks
> Phil (trigpoint )
>
>
> On Tue Aug 19 2014 13:58:06 GMT+0100 (BST), Erik Mattsson wrote:
> > Hi my name is Erik and I work as a developer at Appello that owns the
> Wisepilot application. In our latest release (5.1) we've included a first
> iteration for a report component with the intention to make it easier for
> our users to report map issues in OSM. Unfortunately the release for
> version 5.1 was pushed hard to be ready before the summer vacations which
> led to us not having much personnel here monitoring the feedback we got
> during the summer vacations. I'm very sorry we didn't get on the issues
> you've discussed in this thread earlier.
> >
> > Our intention with this report component is to try to increase the
> quality of the navigation data in OSM by making it easier for our users to
> report issues they see while driving. We've got quite a big chunk of users
> that aren't that "tech savvy" so we want to make it easy for these users to
> contribute to the map quality while using the application normally. These
> are users that feel that it's too big a step to go to the OSM page and edit
> the data directly. This was our first iteration and apparently we have
> quite a lot of issues to address here.
> >
> > All map notes users send go through our server to OSM and a copy is
> saved in our database so we can track the usage internally. We currently
> allow anonymous posting but since it seems like too many "spam" posts gets
> created we will try to impose limits that encourages users to register at
> OSM more. Users can sign in to OSM in the application and if they do the
> notes are posted as their account. We are working towards increasing the
> quality of the reports and any feedback from the community is very welcome.
> >
> > We switched from commercial map data to OSM quite recently(Feb - March)
> and since the switch we've been working on improving the OSM functionality
> in our application. This component is just one part of that.
> >
> > I've tried to read through most of the comments here and have made two
> small fixes that will be rolled out on our servers later today. Those are
> to block reports with 0 as speed and that we add a signature stating that
> the report was sent through us. In the short term we will try to make
> client changes that enforce some basic spam preventing rules and provides
> the users with more information about what happens with their reports. We
>

Re: [OSM-talk] "Incorrect speed limit" anonymous notes - who is behind that?

[Erik Mattsson]

Enabling users to submit GPS traces is definitely in our to-do list, 
unfortunately it didn't make it into the first iteration.

The position of the note is stored as soon as the user opens the report tab, so 
the user can edit it for a while and when it is sent it's still the position 
when he opened the menu that gets sent with the report. Including the heading 
should be fairly simple, we have also planned to include the position accuracy 
in the notes.

Thank you for your feedback.

//Erik

From: Christian Quest [mailto:cqu...@openstreetmap.fr]
Sent: den 21 augusti 2014 08:35
Cc: OpenStreetMap
Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] "Incorrect speed limit" anonymous notes - who is behind 
that?

More (automatic) details in the notes could be useful.

For example: add the heading (something like N, NW, etc)...
Also make sure you're creating the note at the earliest position and not when 
the report is saved/confirmed.

Have you considered sharing GPS traces ?
This would be another major datafeed to improve OSM data quality...


2014-08-19 16:47 GMT+02:00 mailto:p...@trigpoint.me.uk>>:
Hi Eric
Thanks for your comments,  I have been having a play with wisepilot and do 
quite like it.

Pleased to see you are addressing the issues we have pointed out.

I did find the login to osm after i used it, but used with care I found it 
excellent. It was a quiet time so I was able to stop where the limits changed 
and was then able to use the notes to indicate the points to split the ways.

The fact I then used them helped, not so easy if it had been someone else.

Thanks
Phil (trigpoint )

On Tue Aug 19 2014 13:58:06 GMT+0100 (BST), Erik Mattsson wrote:
> Hi my name is Erik and I work as a developer at Appello that owns the 
> Wisepilot application. In our latest release (5.1) we've included a first 
> iteration for a report component with the intention to make it easier for our 
> users to report map issues in OSM. Unfortunately the release for version 5.1 
> was pushed hard to be ready before the summer vacations which led to us not 
> having much personnel here monitoring the feedback we got during the summer 
> vacations. I'm very sorry we didn't get on the issues you've discussed in 
> this thread earlier.
>
> Our intention with this report component is to try to increase the quality of 
> the navigation data in OSM by making it easier for our users to report issues 
> they see while driving. We've got quite a big chunk of users that aren't that 
> "tech savvy" so we want to make it easy for these users to contribute to the 
> map quality while using the application normally. These are users that feel 
> that it's too big a step to go to the OSM page and edit the data directly. 
> This was our first iteration and apparently we have quite a lot of issues to 
> address here.
>
> All map notes users send go through our server to OSM and a copy is saved in 
> our database so we can track the usage internally. We currently allow 
> anonymous posting but since it seems like too many "spam" posts gets created 
> we will try to impose limits that encourages users to register at OSM more. 
> Users can sign in to OSM in the application and if they do the notes are 
> posted as their account. We are working towards increasing the quality of the 
> reports and any feedback from the community is very welcome.
>
> We switched from commercial map data to OSM quite recently(Feb - March) and 
> since the switch we've been working on improving the OSM functionality in our 
> application. This component is just one part of that.
>
> I've tried to read through most of the comments here and have made two small 
> fixes that will be rolled out on our servers later today. Those are to block 
> reports with 0 as speed and that we add a signature stating that the report 
> was sent through us. In the short term we will try to make client changes 
> that enforce some basic spam preventing rules and provides the users with 
> more information about what happens with their reports. We will also look 
> over the imperial/metric situation. As it is now we use the same system as 
> the user does within the application and we did the assumption that users 
> that drives in a country with imperial system also have the client set to 
> imperial. In a lot of cases this doesn't seem to be the case though, so this 
> needs to be addressed.
>
> Please feel free to contact me or 
> supp...@appello.com<mailto:supp...@appello.com> (or here on OSM-talk) with 
> feedback or questions about this component or the application in general. We 
> do not want to create a lot of garbage reports that just ends up cluttering 
> the database and never gets resolved, that's not beneficial 

Re: [OSM-talk] "Incorrect speed limit" anonymous notes - who is behind that?

[Christian Quest]

More (automatic) details in the notes could be useful.

For example: add the heading (something like N, NW, etc)...
Also make sure you're creating the note at the earliest position and not
when the report is saved/confirmed.

Have you considered sharing GPS traces ?
This would be another major datafeed to improve OSM data quality...



2014-08-19 16:47 GMT+02:00 :

> Hi Eric
> Thanks for your comments,  I have been having a play with wisepilot and do
> quite like it.
>
> Pleased to see you are addressing the issues we have pointed out.
>
> I did find the login to osm after i used it, but used with care I found it
> excellent. It was a quiet time so I was able to stop where the limits
> changed and was then able to use the notes to indicate the points to split
> the ways.
>
> The fact I then used them helped, not so easy if it had been someone else.
>
> Thanks
> Phil (trigpoint )
>
> On Tue Aug 19 2014 13:58:06 GMT+0100 (BST), Erik Mattsson wrote:
> > Hi my name is Erik and I work as a developer at Appello that owns the
> Wisepilot application. In our latest release (5.1) we've included a first
> iteration for a report component with the intention to make it easier for
> our users to report map issues in OSM. Unfortunately the release for
> version 5.1 was pushed hard to be ready before the summer vacations which
> led to us not having much personnel here monitoring the feedback we got
> during the summer vacations. I'm very sorry we didn't get on the issues
> you've discussed in this thread earlier.
> >
> > Our intention with this report component is to try to increase the
> quality of the navigation data in OSM by making it easier for our users to
> report issues they see while driving. We've got quite a big chunk of users
> that aren't that "tech savvy" so we want to make it easy for these users to
> contribute to the map quality while using the application normally. These
> are users that feel that it's too big a step to go to the OSM page and edit
> the data directly. This was our first iteration and apparently we have
> quite a lot of issues to address here.
> >
> > All map notes users send go through our server to OSM and a copy is
> saved in our database so we can track the usage internally. We currently
> allow anonymous posting but since it seems like too many "spam" posts gets
> created we will try to impose limits that encourages users to register at
> OSM more. Users can sign in to OSM in the application and if they do the
> notes are posted as their account. We are working towards increasing the
> quality of the reports and any feedback from the community is very welcome.
> >
> > We switched from commercial map data to OSM quite recently(Feb - March)
> and since the switch we've been working on improving the OSM functionality
> in our application. This component is just one part of that.
> >
> > I've tried to read through most of the comments here and have made two
> small fixes that will be rolled out on our servers later today. Those are
> to block reports with 0 as speed and that we add a signature stating that
> the report was sent through us. In the short term we will try to make
> client changes that enforce some basic spam preventing rules and provides
> the users with more information about what happens with their reports. We
> will also look over the imperial/metric situation. As it is now we use the
> same system as the user does within the application and we did the
> assumption that users that drives in a country with imperial system also
> have the client set to imperial. In a lot of cases this doesn't seem to be
> the case though, so this needs to be addressed.
> >
> > Please feel free to contact me or supp...@appello.com (or here on
> OSM-talk) with feedback or questions about this component or the
> application in general. We do not want to create a lot of garbage reports
> that just ends up cluttering the database and never gets resolved, that's
> not beneficial for anyone.
> >
> >
> > Best regards,
> > --
> > Erik Mattsson
> > Software Engineer
> >
> > Location: Appello | Göteborg | Sweden
> > Phone: +4673-636 10 68
> > Mail: erik.matts...@appello.com
> > Web: www.appello.com
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ___
> > talk mailing list
> > talk@openstreetmap.org
> > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
> >
>
> --
> Sent from my Jolla
> ___
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>



-- 
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Re: [OSM-talk] "Incorrect speed limit" anonymous notes - who is behind that?

[phil]

Hi Eric 
Thanks for your comments,  I have been having a play with wisepilot and do 
quite like it.

Pleased to see you are addressing the issues we have pointed out.

I did find the login to osm after i used it, but used with care I found it 
excellent. It was a quiet time so I was able to stop where the limits changed 
and was then able to use the notes to indicate the points to split the ways.

The fact I then used them helped, not so easy if it had been someone else.

Thanks
Phil (trigpoint )

On Tue Aug 19 2014 13:58:06 GMT+0100 (BST), Erik Mattsson wrote:
> Hi my name is Erik and I work as a developer at Appello that owns the 
> Wisepilot application. In our latest release (5.1) we've included a first 
> iteration for a report component with the intention to make it easier for our 
> users to report map issues in OSM. Unfortunately the release for version 5.1 
> was pushed hard to be ready before the summer vacations which led to us not 
> having much personnel here monitoring the feedback we got during the summer 
> vacations. I'm very sorry we didn't get on the issues you've discussed in 
> this thread earlier.
> 
> Our intention with this report component is to try to increase the quality of 
> the navigation data in OSM by making it easier for our users to report issues 
> they see while driving. We've got quite a big chunk of users that aren't that 
> "tech savvy" so we want to make it easy for these users to contribute to the 
> map quality while using the application normally. These are users that feel 
> that it's too big a step to go to the OSM page and edit the data directly. 
> This was our first iteration and apparently we have quite a lot of issues to 
> address here.
> 
> All map notes users send go through our server to OSM and a copy is saved in 
> our database so we can track the usage internally. We currently allow 
> anonymous posting but since it seems like too many "spam" posts gets created 
> we will try to impose limits that encourages users to register at OSM more. 
> Users can sign in to OSM in the application and if they do the notes are 
> posted as their account. We are working towards increasing the quality of the 
> reports and any feedback from the community is very welcome.
> 
> We switched from commercial map data to OSM quite recently(Feb - March) and 
> since the switch we've been working on improving the OSM functionality in our 
> application. This component is just one part of that.
> 
> I've tried to read through most of the comments here and have made two small 
> fixes that will be rolled out on our servers later today. Those are to block 
> reports with 0 as speed and that we add a signature stating that the report 
> was sent through us. In the short term we will try to make client changes 
> that enforce some basic spam preventing rules and provides the users with 
> more information about what happens with their reports. We will also look 
> over the imperial/metric situation. As it is now we use the same system as 
> the user does within the application and we did the assumption that users 
> that drives in a country with imperial system also have the client set to 
> imperial. In a lot of cases this doesn't seem to be the case though, so this 
> needs to be addressed. 
> 
> Please feel free to contact me or supp...@appello.com (or here on OSM-talk) 
> with feedback or questions about this component or the application in 
> general. We do not want to create a lot of garbage reports that just ends up 
> cluttering the database and never gets resolved, that's not beneficial for 
> anyone.
> 
> 
> Best regards,
> -- 
> Erik Mattsson
> Software Engineer
>  
> Location: Appello | Göteborg | Sweden
> Phone: +4673-636 10 68
> Mail: erik.matts...@appello.com
> Web: www.appello.com
>  
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ___
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Re: [OSM-talk] "Incorrect speed limit" anonymous notes - who is behind that?

[Erik Mattsson]

Hi my name is Erik and I work as a developer at Appello that owns the Wisepilot 
application. In our latest release (5.1) we've included a first iteration for a 
report component with the intention to make it easier for our users to report 
map issues in OSM. Unfortunately the release for version 5.1 was pushed hard to 
be ready before the summer vacations which led to us not having much personnel 
here monitoring the feedback we got during the summer vacations. I'm very sorry 
we didn't get on the issues you've discussed in this thread earlier.

Our intention with this report component is to try to increase the quality of 
the navigation data in OSM by making it easier for our users to report issues 
they see while driving. We've got quite a big chunk of users that aren't that 
"tech savvy" so we want to make it easy for these users to contribute to the 
map quality while using the application normally. These are users that feel 
that it's too big a step to go to the OSM page and edit the data directly. This 
was our first iteration and apparently we have quite a lot of issues to address 
here.

All map notes users send go through our server to OSM and a copy is saved in 
our database so we can track the usage internally. We currently allow anonymous 
posting but since it seems like too many "spam" posts gets created we will try 
to impose limits that encourages users to register at OSM more. Users can sign 
in to OSM in the application and if they do the notes are posted as their 
account. We are working towards increasing the quality of the reports and any 
feedback from the community is very welcome.

We switched from commercial map data to OSM quite recently(Feb - March) and 
since the switch we've been working on improving the OSM functionality in our 
application. This component is just one part of that.

I've tried to read through most of the comments here and have made two small 
fixes that will be rolled out on our servers later today. Those are to block 
reports with 0 as speed and that we add a signature stating that the report was 
sent through us. In the short term we will try to make client changes that 
enforce some basic spam preventing rules and provides the users with more 
information about what happens with their reports. We will also look over the 
imperial/metric situation. As it is now we use the same system as the user does 
within the application and we did the assumption that users that drives in a 
country with imperial system also have the client set to imperial. In a lot of 
cases this doesn't seem to be the case though, so this needs to be addressed. 

Please feel free to contact me or supp...@appello.com (or here on OSM-talk) 
with feedback or questions about this component or the application in general. 
We do not want to create a lot of garbage reports that just ends up cluttering 
the database and never gets resolved, that's not beneficial for anyone.


Best regards,
-- 
Erik Mattsson
Software Engineer
 
Location: Appello | Göteborg | Sweden
Phone: +4673-636 10 68
Mail: erik.matts...@appello.com
Web: www.appello.com
 






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Re: [OSM-talk] "Incorrect speed limit" anonymous notes - who is behind that?

[Philip Barnes]

On Sun, 2014-08-17 at 14:14 -0500, John F. Eldredge wrote:
> Speed limits that are an odd multiple of 5 are common in the USA.  For 
> example, the most common speed limit on motorways within cities is 55 mph.  
> 15 mph is a common speed limit near schools at the times of day when children 
> are likely to be using the crosswalks.
> 
> Speed limits that aren't an odd or even multiple of 5 are rare, but not 
> unknown. They are usually on private roads. For example, the YMCA owns a 
> large sports facility outside Nashville, TN. The posted speed limits on the 
> private roads within the compound are 16 mph.
> 
I am aware that the USA has speed limits in multiples of 5 mph. I was
suggesting that the app should use the GPS, or settings, to get some
sensible locaiised values for speed limits values and mph/kph.

There is also a 10 second timeout on the report, I think only on the
driving mode, which will possibly encourage the user to just hit send.

I have been experimenting a little more since my last post, the value
initially presented to the user is the closest increment to the actual
speed.

Actually if used with care its not a bad feature, I would like this in
osmand but then use my OSM account rather than post anonymously.

Although the main point of the thread I do still believe. The note
should include the name of the app and contact details of the admins for
the app, that is only basic good manners and should have been a no
brainer for the developers.

Phil (trigpoint)


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Re: [OSM-talk] "Incorrect speed limit" anonymous notes - who is behind that?

[Paul Johnson]

I've seen km/h speed limits in the US.  There's even a sign standard for
these, and the Federal Highway Administration is recommending the new signs
over the existing MPH signs (tonnes and km/h are circled on the sign,
obsolete units have no circle).



On Sun, Aug 10, 2014 at 1:52 PM, Philip Barnes  wrote:

> On Sun, 2014-08-10 at 15:13 +0100, John Sturdy wrote:
> > I wonder whether these "incorrect speed limit" notes might not be
> > reporting that the speed limit on the map isn't what it is on the
> > road, but someone objecting to what the speed limit on the road is,
> > and making a token protest about it?
> >
> Most I have seen are plain ridiculous. Apart from the obvious error of
> using kph in the UK, and USA? Many are 0 (impossible or 10 (really
> unlikely). The only valid speed I have found was telling me that the
> speed limit on the M25 is 70mph, which was of course already tagged.
>
> There is a lot of accidental misuse of notes, where they are used to tag
> "meet here", "the site" and so on. These are things that should use the
> share button, but the misuse is understandable, the word note does not
> imply suggest improvement or highlight omission. A note in normal usage
> is something private and informal.
>
> It would be interesting to know where these speed limit notes are coming
> from, if an app is posting then it is only good manners to say who you
> are.
>
> Speed limits are an area in which we are lacking in many areas, but they
> are also something that needs careful surveying. I am certainly working
> on these where I can. But it is a slow process, notes highlighting a
> missing speed limit in a cul-de-sac are not likely to make any mapper
> change their mapping plan.
>
> Phil (trigpoint)
>
>
> > On Sun, Aug 10, 2014 at 1:24 PM, JB  wrote:
> > > Have a look  there:
> > > https://github.com/openstreetmap/openstreetmap-website/issues/486
> > > If categories are create (and I think they should), I would still add
> > > private notes/heavy duty work
> > > JB.
> > >
> > > Le 10/08/2014 14:10, Matthijs Melissen a écrit :
> > >
> > >> I see a lot of comments like this. The underlying problem seems to be
> > >> that it is not clear whether notes are meant for armchair mappers, or
> > >> for surveyors in the field.
> > >>
> > >> I think both types of notes are useful: that way the notes can serve
> > >> as a two-way communication between mappers in the field (for example
> > >> novices who don't know how to edit the map themselves) and armchair
> > >> mappers (who might want to communicate with mappers in the field if
> > >> they are unable to do a field check themselves at that moment).
> > >>
> > >> So the solution might be very simple: make two types of notes, 'desk'
> > >> notes and 'field' notes. The desk notes can be handled by armchair
> > >> mappers. The field notes need a check in the field. Notes created by
> > >> anonymous users should be desk notes by default, and if information is
> > >> missing, the armchair mapper should be able to turn it into a field
> > >> note.
> > >>
> > >> The notes JB refers seem to be field-type notes. I think they are
> > >> useful, and I think it's not helpful if armchair mappers try to close
> > >> all of them without doing a survey.
> > >>
> > >> Anyone think a split in field and desk notes is a good idea?
> > >> Implementation of this should be easy.
> > >>
> > >> -- Matthijs
> > >>
> > >> On 10 August 2014 11:50, JB  wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>> Hello,
> > >>> I think I will reopen the debate here, by asking a simple question:
> how
> > >>> many
> > >>> of those saying "hey, let this note open, it does no harm to anybody"
> > >>> have
> > >>> actually browsed a country for its opened notes and tried to close
> them?
> > >>> How
> > >>> many have done the same with openstreetbugs during its last year of
> life?
> > >>> If you have not, let me tell you, loud and clear: the note database
> will
> > >>> become unusable soon. When you browse 10 notes and are forced to
> leave 9
> > >>> open because it does provide no clean information, you just stop
> trying.
> > >>> That is why during OSB close up, I found so many notes of that kind
> > >>> (continue the path, this is wrong, this does not exist, etc.), that
> where
> > >>> just not clear enough, or where just too old (the correction had been
> > >>> done
> > >>> without OSB), and most of them where more than 2 years old. And this
> is
> > >>> why
> > >>> OSB was a mess in the end.
> > >>> I have tried to keep the DB clean in France, am still trying by
> beeing
> > >>> less
> > >>> narrow-minded, but I just see its quality decreasing every day.
> > >>> So I do not have the exact number, but adding some 10s of little
> valued
> > >>> notes every week saying "this speed limit may be wrong", some of them
> > >>> added
> > >>> by error (not along a highway) does not seem an improvement to the
> notes
> > >>> DB
> > >>> to me.
> > >>> JB.
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> Le 10/08/2014 09:42, Martin Koppenhoefer a écrit 

Re: [OSM-talk] "Incorrect speed limit" anonymous notes - who is behind that?

[Paul Johnson]

Reminds me of what Mapdust failed at.


On Sun, Aug 10, 2014 at 7:10 AM, Matthijs Melissen  wrote:

> I see a lot of comments like this. The underlying problem seems to be
> that it is not clear whether notes are meant for armchair mappers, or
> for surveyors in the field.
>
> I think both types of notes are useful: that way the notes can serve
> as a two-way communication between mappers in the field (for example
> novices who don't know how to edit the map themselves) and armchair
> mappers (who might want to communicate with mappers in the field if
> they are unable to do a field check themselves at that moment).
>
> So the solution might be very simple: make two types of notes, 'desk'
> notes and 'field' notes. The desk notes can be handled by armchair
> mappers. The field notes need a check in the field. Notes created by
> anonymous users should be desk notes by default, and if information is
> missing, the armchair mapper should be able to turn it into a field
> note.
>
> The notes JB refers seem to be field-type notes. I think they are
> useful, and I think it's not helpful if armchair mappers try to close
> all of them without doing a survey.
>
> Anyone think a split in field and desk notes is a good idea?
> Implementation of this should be easy.
>
> -- Matthijs
>
> On 10 August 2014 11:50, JB  wrote:
> > Hello,
> > I think I will reopen the debate here, by asking a simple question: how
> many
> > of those saying "hey, let this note open, it does no harm to anybody"
> have
> > actually browsed a country for its opened notes and tried to close them?
> How
> > many have done the same with openstreetbugs during its last year of life?
> > If you have not, let me tell you, loud and clear: the note database will
> > become unusable soon. When you browse 10 notes and are forced to leave 9
> > open because it does provide no clean information, you just stop trying.
> > That is why during OSB close up, I found so many notes of that kind
> > (continue the path, this is wrong, this does not exist, etc.), that where
> > just not clear enough, or where just too old (the correction had been
> done
> > without OSB), and most of them where more than 2 years old. And this is
> why
> > OSB was a mess in the end.
> > I have tried to keep the DB clean in France, am still trying by beeing
> less
> > narrow-minded, but I just see its quality decreasing every day.
> > So I do not have the exact number, but adding some 10s of little valued
> > notes every week saying "this speed limit may be wrong", some of them
> added
> > by error (not along a highway) does not seem an improvement to the notes
> DB
> > to me.
> > JB.
> >
> >
> > Le 10/08/2014 09:42, Martin Koppenhoefer a écrit :
> >
> >>
> >>> Il giorno 09/ago/2014, alle ore 13:56, Norbert Wenzel
> >>>  ha scritto:
> >>>
> >>> just seeing these notes along a
> >>> motorway every few kilometers. And since these messages don't tell what
> >>> the actual speed limit should be and where it starts it gets really
> >>> annoying to close all these automatically generated notes.
> >>
> >>
> >> why are you closing them, if you can't solve the issue? I would keep
> them
> >> open, if you are not sure that the limit is correct in OSM
> >>
> >> cheers,
> >> Martin
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> >> talk@openstreetmap.org
> >> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
> >
> >
> >
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Re: [OSM-talk] "Incorrect speed limit" anonymous notes - who is behind that?

[John F. Eldredge]

Speed limits that are an odd multiple of 5 are common in the USA.  For example, 
the most common speed limit on motorways within cities is 55 mph.  15 mph is a 
common speed limit near schools at the times of day when children are likely to 
be using the crosswalks.

Speed limits that aren't an odd or even multiple of 5 are rare, but not 
unknown. They are usually on private roads. For example, the YMCA owns a large 
sports facility outside Nashville, TN. The posted speed limits on the private 
roads within the compound are 16 mph.


On August 17, 2014 7:43:03 AM CDT, Philip Barnes  wrote:
> On Sun, 2014-08-17 at 02:22 +0200, Andreas Vilén wrote:
> > The user in question now told me he's been using the Wisepilot
> > app: http://www.appello.com/apps/wisepilot/ and seemed totally
> > oblivious to it being a mystery, and that it creates strange and
> > unhelpful notes in most cases.
> > 
> > 
> > I'm guessing Wisepilot doesn't make it very clear what happens when
> > someone reports an error in the app.
> 
> Thanks Andreas
> 
> I have just downloaded wisepilot and have been having a play.
> 
> The first issue I can see is that it defaults to km and to change this
> relies on the user digging into the settings. This should be a startup
> question, or just use the GPs to work it out would be even better.
> 
> The proliferation of these notes using km in the UK does suggest users
> are not bothering to set it up properly. The km display will obviously
> proliferate erroneous reports for an unaware user.
> 
> The speed limit report starts at zero, which is a ridiculous number. I
> guess many do not bother to select the correct limit, but just hit
> report. selecting the speed then replies on the user scrolling through
> a
> list, there are too many options including 5's. All UK limits are
> multiples of 10, have never seen a km speed limit ending in 5 whilst
> driving in Europe either.
> 
> Phil (trigpoint)
> 
> > 
> > 
> > /Andreas
> > 
> > 
> > On Sat, Aug 16, 2014 at 10:02 PM, Andreas Vilén
> >  wrote:
> > Uhm, no, that's not it... Look at
> >
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=16/57.9221/12.5033&layers=N
> > for example. Also, at least 40-50 notes have been created on
> > this exact location:
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/note/215471
> > That leads me to believe that that position is the "zero
> > position" of the app used to create these notes.
> > 
> > 
> > It would be really great if the person who managed to figure
> > out what app creates these notes could speak out. The guy I
> > contacted about this also doesn't seem to want to answer
> > questions... Why is everything so cryptic?
> > 
> > 
> > /Andreas
> > 
> > 
> > On Sat, Aug 16, 2014 at 8:36 PM, John F. Eldredge
> >  wrote:
> > 
> > On 08/16/2014 01:34 AM, Mateusz Konieczny wrote:
> > 
> > > 2014-08-16 8:28 GMT+02:00 Maarten Deen
> > > :
> > > On 2014-08-16 01:48, Andreas Vilén wrote:
> > > This continues to be really
> > > annoying, and the obvious spam
> seems
> > > to
> > > cluster at a few locations, where
> > > 10-20 notes can be created with
> the
> > > same information. The maker of
> this
> > > app must be made clear that notes
> > > can't work like this, and users
> > > would at least be required to give
> > > some contact information. Most of
> > > the notes that come from this app
> > > are useless and will probably stay
> > > in the database forever.
> > > 
> > > 
> > > And the notes may be anonymous, but IMHO
> it
> > > is prudent to put in the message or the
> > > metadata which app reported it. That way
> you
> > > don't have to go on a wild goose chase to
> > > see where it is coming from.
> > > 
> > > Maarten
> > 
> > 
> > If the useless notes are concentrated at a few
> points,
> > it may mean that someone who lives there or passes
> > through on a regular basis is alpha-testing or
> > beta-testing an app.  I agree that both a user
> contact
> > and the identify of the app are needed.
> > -- 
> > John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfe

Re: [OSM-talk] "Incorrect speed limit" anonymous notes - who is behind that?

[John F. Eldredge]

Speed limits even n4

On August 17, 2014 7:43:03 AM CDT, Philip Barnes  wrote:
> On Sun, 2014-08-17 at 02:22 +0200, Andreas Vilén wrote:
> > The user in question now told me he's been using the Wisepilot
> > app: http://www.appello.com/apps/wisepilot/ and seemed totally
> > oblivious to it being a mystery, and that it creates strange and
> > unhelpful notes in most cases.
> > 
> > 
> > I'm guessing Wisepilot doesn't make it very clear what happens when
> > someone reports an error in the app.
> 
> Thanks Andreas
> 
> I have just downloaded wisepilot and have been having a play.
> 
> The first issue I can see is that it defaults to km and to change this
> relies on the user digging into the settings. This should be a startup
> question, or just use the GPs to work it out would be even better.
> 
> The proliferation of these notes using km in the UK does suggest users
> are not bothering to set it up properly. The km display will obviously
> proliferate erroneous reports for an unaware user.
> 
> The speed limit report starts at zero, which is a ridiculous number. I
> guess many do not bother to select the correct limit, but just hit
> report. selecting the speed then replies on the user scrolling through
> a
> list, there are too many options including 5's. All UK limits are
> multiples of 10, have never seen a km speed limit ending in 5 whilst
> driving in Europe either.
> 
> Phil (trigpoint)
> 
> > 
> > 
> > /Andreas
> > 
> > 
> > On Sat, Aug 16, 2014 at 10:02 PM, Andreas Vilén
> >  wrote:
> > Uhm, no, that's not it... Look at
> >
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=16/57.9221/12.5033&layers=N
> > for example. Also, at least 40-50 notes have been created on
> > this exact location:
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/note/215471
> > That leads me to believe that that position is the "zero
> > position" of the app used to create these notes.
> > 
> > 
> > It would be really great if the person who managed to figure
> > out what app creates these notes could speak out. The guy I
> > contacted about this also doesn't seem to want to answer
> > questions... Why is everything so cryptic?
> > 
> > 
> > /Andreas
> > 
> > 
> > On Sat, Aug 16, 2014 at 8:36 PM, John F. Eldredge
> >  wrote:
> > 
> > On 08/16/2014 01:34 AM, Mateusz Konieczny wrote:
> > 
> > > 2014-08-16 8:28 GMT+02:00 Maarten Deen
> > > :
> > > On 2014-08-16 01:48, Andreas Vilén wrote:
> > > This continues to be really
> > > annoying, and the obvious spam
> seems
> > > to
> > > cluster at a few locations, where
> > > 10-20 notes can be created with
> the
> > > same information. The maker of
> this
> > > app must be made clear that notes
> > > can't work like this, and users
> > > would at least be required to give
> > > some contact information. Most of
> > > the notes that come from this app
> > > are useless and will probably stay
> > > in the database forever.
> > > 
> > > 
> > > And the notes may be anonymous, but IMHO
> it
> > > is prudent to put in the message or the
> > > metadata which app reported it. That way
> you
> > > don't have to go on a wild goose chase to
> > > see where it is coming from.
> > > 
> > > Maarten
> > 
> > 
> > If the useless notes are concentrated at a few
> points,
> > it may mean that someone who lives there or passes
> > through on a regular basis is alpha-testing or
> > beta-testing an app.  I agree that both a user
> contact
> > and the identify of the app are needed.
> > -- 
> > John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com
> > "Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can
> do that.
> > Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that."
> > Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.
> > 
> > 
> > ___
> > talk mailing list
> > talk@openstreetmap.org
> > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
> > 
> > 
> > 

Re: [OSM-talk] "Incorrect speed limit" anonymous notes - who is behind that?

[Andreas Vilén]

Did the app have a standard position when the GPS doesn't work properly or
is not active, considering all the notes in several different languages,
that are constantly created in the same location in central Stockholm?

The ones that are clustered around a residential area in a small village in
Sweden are probably created by one user fooling around in his or her home,
when I thought further about it.

/Andreas


On Sun, Aug 17, 2014 at 2:43 PM, Philip Barnes  wrote:

> On Sun, 2014-08-17 at 02:22 +0200, Andreas Vilén wrote:
> > The user in question now told me he's been using the Wisepilot
> > app: http://www.appello.com/apps/wisepilot/ and seemed totally
> > oblivious to it being a mystery, and that it creates strange and
> > unhelpful notes in most cases.
> >
> >
> > I'm guessing Wisepilot doesn't make it very clear what happens when
> > someone reports an error in the app.
>
> Thanks Andreas
>
> I have just downloaded wisepilot and have been having a play.
>
> The first issue I can see is that it defaults to km and to change this
> relies on the user digging into the settings. This should be a startup
> question, or just use the GPs to work it out would be even better.
>
> The proliferation of these notes using km in the UK does suggest users
> are not bothering to set it up properly. The km display will obviously
> proliferate erroneous reports for an unaware user.
>
> The speed limit report starts at zero, which is a ridiculous number. I
> guess many do not bother to select the correct limit, but just hit
> report. selecting the speed then replies on the user scrolling through a
> list, there are too many options including 5's. All UK limits are
> multiples of 10, have never seen a km speed limit ending in 5 whilst
> driving in Europe either.
>
> Phil (trigpoint)
>
> >
> >
> > /Andreas
> >
> >
> > On Sat, Aug 16, 2014 at 10:02 PM, Andreas Vilén
> >  wrote:
> > Uhm, no, that's not it... Look at
> > http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=16/57.9221/12.5033&layers=N
> > for example. Also, at least 40-50 notes have been created on
> > this exact location: http://www.openstreetmap.org/note/215471
> > That leads me to believe that that position is the "zero
> > position" of the app used to create these notes.
> >
> >
> > It would be really great if the person who managed to figure
> > out what app creates these notes could speak out. The guy I
> > contacted about this also doesn't seem to want to answer
> > questions... Why is everything so cryptic?
> >
> >
> > /Andreas
> >
> >
> > On Sat, Aug 16, 2014 at 8:36 PM, John F. Eldredge
> >  wrote:
> >
> > On 08/16/2014 01:34 AM, Mateusz Konieczny wrote:
> >
> > > 2014-08-16 8:28 GMT+02:00 Maarten Deen
> > > :
> > > On 2014-08-16 01:48, Andreas Vilén wrote:
> > > This continues to be really
> > > annoying, and the obvious spam seems
> > > to
> > > cluster at a few locations, where
> > > 10-20 notes can be created with the
> > > same information. The maker of this
> > > app must be made clear that notes
> > > can't work like this, and users
> > > would at least be required to give
> > > some contact information. Most of
> > > the notes that come from this app
> > > are useless and will probably stay
> > > in the database forever.
> > >
> > >
> > > And the notes may be anonymous, but IMHO it
> > > is prudent to put in the message or the
> > > metadata which app reported it. That way you
> > > don't have to go on a wild goose chase to
> > > see where it is coming from.
> > >
> > > Maarten
> >
> >
> > If the useless notes are concentrated at a few points,
> > it may mean that someone who lives there or passes
> > through on a regular basis is alpha-testing or
> > beta-testing an app.  I agree that both a user contact
> > and the identify of the app are needed.
> > --
> > John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com
> > "Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do
> that.
> > Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that."
> > Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.
> >
> >
> > ___
> >  

Re: [OSM-talk] "Incorrect speed limit" anonymous notes - who is behind that?

[Philip Barnes]

Then there are what I expect are temporary limits for some reason being
reported.

Such as 
http://www.openstreetmap.org/note/219321#c438501

The permanent limit here is correctly posted as 70 mph.

Phil (trigpoint)


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Re: [OSM-talk] "Incorrect speed limit" anonymous notes - who is behind that?

[Philip Barnes]

On Sun, 2014-08-17 at 02:22 +0200, Andreas Vilén wrote:
> The user in question now told me he's been using the Wisepilot
> app: http://www.appello.com/apps/wisepilot/ and seemed totally
> oblivious to it being a mystery, and that it creates strange and
> unhelpful notes in most cases.
> 
> 
> I'm guessing Wisepilot doesn't make it very clear what happens when
> someone reports an error in the app.

Thanks Andreas

I have just downloaded wisepilot and have been having a play.

The first issue I can see is that it defaults to km and to change this
relies on the user digging into the settings. This should be a startup
question, or just use the GPs to work it out would be even better.

The proliferation of these notes using km in the UK does suggest users
are not bothering to set it up properly. The km display will obviously
proliferate erroneous reports for an unaware user.

The speed limit report starts at zero, which is a ridiculous number. I
guess many do not bother to select the correct limit, but just hit
report. selecting the speed then replies on the user scrolling through a
list, there are too many options including 5's. All UK limits are
multiples of 10, have never seen a km speed limit ending in 5 whilst
driving in Europe either.

Phil (trigpoint)

> 
> 
> /Andreas
> 
> 
> On Sat, Aug 16, 2014 at 10:02 PM, Andreas Vilén
>  wrote:
> Uhm, no, that's not it... Look at
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=16/57.9221/12.5033&layers=N
> for example. Also, at least 40-50 notes have been created on
> this exact location: http://www.openstreetmap.org/note/215471
> That leads me to believe that that position is the "zero
> position" of the app used to create these notes.
> 
> 
> It would be really great if the person who managed to figure
> out what app creates these notes could speak out. The guy I
> contacted about this also doesn't seem to want to answer
> questions... Why is everything so cryptic?
> 
> 
> /Andreas
> 
> 
> On Sat, Aug 16, 2014 at 8:36 PM, John F. Eldredge
>  wrote:
> 
> On 08/16/2014 01:34 AM, Mateusz Konieczny wrote:
> 
> > 2014-08-16 8:28 GMT+02:00 Maarten Deen
> > :
> > On 2014-08-16 01:48, Andreas Vilén wrote:
> > This continues to be really
> > annoying, and the obvious spam seems
> > to
> > cluster at a few locations, where
> > 10-20 notes can be created with the
> > same information. The maker of this
> > app must be made clear that notes
> > can't work like this, and users
> > would at least be required to give
> > some contact information. Most of
> > the notes that come from this app
> > are useless and will probably stay
> > in the database forever.
> > 
> > 
> > And the notes may be anonymous, but IMHO it
> > is prudent to put in the message or the
> > metadata which app reported it. That way you
> > don't have to go on a wild goose chase to
> > see where it is coming from.
> > 
> > Maarten
> 
> 
> If the useless notes are concentrated at a few points,
> it may mean that someone who lives there or passes
> through on a regular basis is alpha-testing or
> beta-testing an app.  I agree that both a user contact
> and the identify of the app are needed.
> -- 
> John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com
> "Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that.
> Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that."
> Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.
> 
> 
> ___
> talk mailing list
> talk@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [OSM-talk] "Incorrect speed limit" anonymous notes - who is behind that?

[Toby Murray]

I opened an issue about this a year ago and apparently it came up in an EWG
meeting as well. But talk and issues don't write code.

https://github.com/openstreetmap/openstreetmap-website/issues/385

Toby
On Aug 16, 2014 8:10 PM, "colliar"  wrote:

> Am 16.08.2014 08:28, schrieb Maarten Deen:
> > On 2014-08-16 01:48, Andreas Vilén wrote:
> >> This continues to be really annoying, and the obvious spam seems to
> >> cluster at a few locations, where 10-20 notes can be created with the
> >> same information. The maker of this app must be made clear that notes
> >> can't work like this, and users would at least be required to give
> >> some contact information. Most of the notes that come from this app
> >> are useless and will probably stay in the database forever.
> >
> > And the notes may be anonymous, but IMHO it is prudent to put in the
> > message or the metadata which app reported it. That way you don't have
> > to go on a wild goose chase to see where it is coming from.
>
> Think any app that creates notes should have a proper user with some
> information on the user's page and like wise an email address to contact.
>
> This way users could still create nodes anonymously but we would reach
> the person with power.
>
> cu colliar
>
>
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] "Incorrect speed limit" anonymous notes - who is behind that?

[colliar]

Am 16.08.2014 08:28, schrieb Maarten Deen:
> On 2014-08-16 01:48, Andreas Vilén wrote:
>> This continues to be really annoying, and the obvious spam seems to
>> cluster at a few locations, where 10-20 notes can be created with the
>> same information. The maker of this app must be made clear that notes
>> can't work like this, and users would at least be required to give
>> some contact information. Most of the notes that come from this app
>> are useless and will probably stay in the database forever.
> 
> And the notes may be anonymous, but IMHO it is prudent to put in the
> message or the metadata which app reported it. That way you don't have
> to go on a wild goose chase to see where it is coming from.

Think any app that creates notes should have a proper user with some
information on the user's page and like wise an email address to contact.

This way users could still create nodes anonymously but we would reach
the person with power.

cu colliar




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Re: [OSM-talk] "Incorrect speed limit" anonymous notes - who is behind that?

[Andreas Vilén]

The user in question now told me he's been using the Wisepilot app:
http://www.appello.com/apps/wisepilot/ and seemed totally oblivious to it
being a mystery, and that it creates strange and unhelpful notes in most
cases.

I'm guessing Wisepilot doesn't make it very clear what happens when someone
reports an error in the app.

/Andreas


On Sat, Aug 16, 2014 at 10:02 PM, Andreas Vilén 
wrote:

> Uhm, no, that's not it... Look at
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=16/57.9221/12.5033&layers=N for
> example. Also, at least 40-50 notes have been created on this exact
> location: http://www.openstreetmap.org/note/215471 That leads me to
> believe that that position is the "zero position" of the app used to create
> these notes.
>
> It would be really great if the person who managed to figure out what app
> creates these notes could speak out. The guy I contacted about this also
> doesn't seem to want to answer questions... Why is everything so cryptic?
>
> /Andreas
>
>
> On Sat, Aug 16, 2014 at 8:36 PM, John F. Eldredge 
> wrote:
>
>>  On 08/16/2014 01:34 AM, Mateusz Konieczny wrote:
>>
>>  2014-08-16 8:28 GMT+02:00 Maarten Deen :
>>
>>> On 2014-08-16 01:48, Andreas Vilén wrote:
>>>
 This continues to be really annoying, and the obvious spam seems to
 cluster at a few locations, where 10-20 notes can be created with the
 same information. The maker of this app must be made clear that notes
 can't work like this, and users would at least be required to give
 some contact information. Most of the notes that come from this app
 are useless and will probably stay in the database forever.

>>>
>>>  And the notes may be anonymous, but IMHO it is prudent to put in the
>>> message or the metadata which app reported it. That way you don't have to
>>> go on a wild goose chase to see where it is coming from.
>>>
>>> Maarten
>>>
>>
>> If the useless notes are concentrated at a few points, it may mean that
>> someone who lives there or passes through on a regular basis is
>> alpha-testing or beta-testing an app.  I agree that both a user contact and
>> the identify of the app are needed.
>>
>> --
>> John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com
>> "Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that.
>> Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that."
>> Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.
>>
>>
>> ___
>> talk mailing list
>> talk@openstreetmap.org
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>>
>>
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Re: [OSM-talk] "Incorrect speed limit" anonymous notes - who is behind that?

[Andreas Vilén]

Uhm, no, that's not it... Look at
http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=16/57.9221/12.5033&layers=N for example.
Also, at least 40-50 notes have been created on this exact location:
http://www.openstreetmap.org/note/215471 That leads me to believe that that
position is the "zero position" of the app used to create these notes.

It would be really great if the person who managed to figure out what app
creates these notes could speak out. The guy I contacted about this also
doesn't seem to want to answer questions... Why is everything so cryptic?

/Andreas


On Sat, Aug 16, 2014 at 8:36 PM, John F. Eldredge 
wrote:

>  On 08/16/2014 01:34 AM, Mateusz Konieczny wrote:
>
>  2014-08-16 8:28 GMT+02:00 Maarten Deen :
>
>> On 2014-08-16 01:48, Andreas Vilén wrote:
>>
>>> This continues to be really annoying, and the obvious spam seems to
>>> cluster at a few locations, where 10-20 notes can be created with the
>>> same information. The maker of this app must be made clear that notes
>>> can't work like this, and users would at least be required to give
>>> some contact information. Most of the notes that come from this app
>>> are useless and will probably stay in the database forever.
>>>
>>
>>  And the notes may be anonymous, but IMHO it is prudent to put in the
>> message or the metadata which app reported it. That way you don't have to
>> go on a wild goose chase to see where it is coming from.
>>
>> Maarten
>>
>
> If the useless notes are concentrated at a few points, it may mean that
> someone who lives there or passes through on a regular basis is
> alpha-testing or beta-testing an app.  I agree that both a user contact and
> the identify of the app are needed.
>
> --
> John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com
> "Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that.
> Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that."
> Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.
>
>
> ___
> talk mailing list
> talk@openstreetmap.org
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Re: [OSM-talk] "Incorrect speed limit" anonymous notes - who is behind that?

[John F. Eldredge]

On 08/16/2014 01:34 AM, Mateusz Konieczny wrote:
2014-08-16 8:28 GMT+02:00 Maarten Deen >:


On 2014-08-16 01:48, Andreas Vilén wrote:

This continues to be really annoying, and the obvious spam
seems to
cluster at a few locations, where 10-20 notes can be created
with the
same information. The maker of this app must be made clear
that notes
can't work like this, and users would at least be required to give
some contact information. Most of the notes that come from
this app
are useless and will probably stay in the database forever.


And the notes may be anonymous, but IMHO it is prudent to put in
the message or the metadata which app reported it. That way you
don't have to go on a wild goose chase to see where it is coming from.

Maarten



If the useless notes are concentrated at a few points, it may mean that 
someone who lives there or passes through on a regular basis is 
alpha-testing or beta-testing an app.  I agree that both a user contact 
and the identify of the app are needed.


--
John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com
"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that.
Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that."
Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.

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Re: [OSM-talk] "Incorrect speed limit" anonymous notes - who is behind that?

[Andreas Vilén]

I noticed that note was actually made by a logged in user so I tried asking
where the notes were coming from and got the answer "Wrong speed limit on a
speed camera" together with a "sent from my iphone with http://midpoint.se/
" and nothing else... I have no idea what midpoint is but it feels like I
was talking to a software...

/Andreas


On Sat, Aug 16, 2014 at 3:37 PM, Andreas Vilén 
wrote:

> Like this one: http://www.openstreetmap.org/note/220298 It says "map
> error: general map error: error"...
>
>
> On Sat, Aug 16, 2014 at 8:34 AM, Mateusz Konieczny 
> wrote:
>
>> 2014-08-16 8:28 GMT+02:00 Maarten Deen :
>>
>> On 2014-08-16 01:48, Andreas Vilén wrote:
>>>
 This continues to be really annoying, and the obvious spam seems to
 cluster at a few locations, where 10-20 notes can be created with the
 same information. The maker of this app must be made clear that notes
 can't work like this, and users would at least be required to give
 some contact information. Most of the notes that come from this app
 are useless and will probably stay in the database forever.

>>>
>>> And the notes may be anonymous, but IMHO it is prudent to put in the
>>> message or the metadata which app reported it. That way you don't have to
>>> go on a wild goose chase to see where it is coming from.
>>>
>>> Maarten
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ___
>>> talk mailing list
>>> talk@openstreetmap.org
>>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>>>
>>
>> With low quality and no information about source this should be treated
>> as a spam.
>>
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>>
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Re: [OSM-talk] "Incorrect speed limit" anonymous notes - who is behind that?

[Andreas Vilén]

Like this one: http://www.openstreetmap.org/note/220298 It says "map error:
general map error: error"...


On Sat, Aug 16, 2014 at 8:34 AM, Mateusz Konieczny 
wrote:

> 2014-08-16 8:28 GMT+02:00 Maarten Deen :
>
> On 2014-08-16 01:48, Andreas Vilén wrote:
>>
>>> This continues to be really annoying, and the obvious spam seems to
>>> cluster at a few locations, where 10-20 notes can be created with the
>>> same information. The maker of this app must be made clear that notes
>>> can't work like this, and users would at least be required to give
>>> some contact information. Most of the notes that come from this app
>>> are useless and will probably stay in the database forever.
>>>
>>
>> And the notes may be anonymous, but IMHO it is prudent to put in the
>> message or the metadata which app reported it. That way you don't have to
>> go on a wild goose chase to see where it is coming from.
>>
>> Maarten
>>
>>
>>
>> ___
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>> talk@openstreetmap.org
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>>
>
> With low quality and no information about source this should be treated as
> a spam.
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] "Incorrect speed limit" anonymous notes - who is behind that?

[Mateusz Konieczny]

2014-08-16 8:28 GMT+02:00 Maarten Deen :

> On 2014-08-16 01:48, Andreas Vilén wrote:
>
>> This continues to be really annoying, and the obvious spam seems to
>> cluster at a few locations, where 10-20 notes can be created with the
>> same information. The maker of this app must be made clear that notes
>> can't work like this, and users would at least be required to give
>> some contact information. Most of the notes that come from this app
>> are useless and will probably stay in the database forever.
>>
>
> And the notes may be anonymous, but IMHO it is prudent to put in the
> message or the metadata which app reported it. That way you don't have to
> go on a wild goose chase to see where it is coming from.
>
> Maarten
>
>
>
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>

With low quality and no information about source this should be treated as
a spam.
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Re: [OSM-talk] "Incorrect speed limit" anonymous notes - who is behind that?

[Maarten Deen]

On 2014-08-16 01:48, Andreas Vilén wrote:

This continues to be really annoying, and the obvious spam seems to
cluster at a few locations, where 10-20 notes can be created with the
same information. The maker of this app must be made clear that notes
can't work like this, and users would at least be required to give
some contact information. Most of the notes that come from this app
are useless and will probably stay in the database forever.


And the notes may be anonymous, but IMHO it is prudent to put in the 
message or the metadata which app reported it. That way you don't have 
to go on a wild goose chase to see where it is coming from.


Maarten


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Re: [OSM-talk] "Incorrect speed limit" anonymous notes - who is behind that?

[Andreas Vilén]

This continues to be really annoying, and the obvious spam seems to cluster
at a few locations, where 10-20 notes can be created with the same
information. The maker of this app must be made clear that notes can't work
like this, and users would at least be required to give some contact
information. Most of the notes that come from this app are useless and will
probably stay in the database forever.

If this continues, maybe anonymous notes can no longer be accepted and that
would be sad.

/Andreas


On Mon, Aug 11, 2014 at 1:02 PM, Philip Barnes  wrote:

> On Mon, 2014-08-11 at 09:54 +0100, Tom Hughes wrote:
> > On 10/08/14 21:16, Norbert Wenzel wrote:
> >
> > > Since these notes are automatically generated there's no on you could
> > > ask for clarifications, which is needed for all issues. And that has
> > > been tried. The quality of these reports has already been discussed on
> > > this list so I don't see any value in these notes. And I don't think
> I'm
> > > alone with my judgment since most if not all of these notes have been
> > > closed by now by different users.
> >
> > Just to let people know, I have now managed to make contact with the
> > authors of the app that is creating these notes and they are now
> > reviewing the comments in this thread and working on improvements.
> >
> What is the app called? Do tell.
>
> Phil (trigpoint)
>
>
>
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] "Incorrect speed limit" anonymous notes - who is behind that?

[Norbert Wenzel]

On 08/11/2014 12:38 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
> Il giorno 11/ago/2014, alle ore 12:25, Norbert Wenzel 
>  ha scritto:
>> A lot of messages posted with the same text and known to be of dubious
>> quality
> 
> Have there been cases where at the time the note was created the speed limit 
> in osm was actually correct?

Yes there have even been cases where the static speed limit (good old
metal sign) has been correctly tagged in OSM and still reported. And the
other cases have been described in the previous mail.

Norbert

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Re: [OSM-talk] "Incorrect speed limit" anonymous notes - who is behind that?

[Philip Barnes]

On Mon, 2014-08-11 at 09:54 +0100, Tom Hughes wrote:
> On 10/08/14 21:16, Norbert Wenzel wrote:
> 
> > Since these notes are automatically generated there's no on you could
> > ask for clarifications, which is needed for all issues. And that has
> > been tried. The quality of these reports has already been discussed on
> > this list so I don't see any value in these notes. And I don't think I'm
> > alone with my judgment since most if not all of these notes have been
> > closed by now by different users.
> 
> Just to let people know, I have now managed to make contact with the 
> authors of the app that is creating these notes and they are now 
> reviewing the comments in this thread and working on improvements.
> 
What is the app called? Do tell.

Phil (trigpoint)




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Re: [OSM-talk] "Incorrect speed limit" anonymous notes - who is behind that?

[Philip Barnes]

On Mon, 2014-08-11 at 12:38 +0200, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:

> 
> Have there been cases where at the time the note was created the speed limit 
> in osm was actually correct?
> 
Yes, this one which I closed yesterday,
http://www.openstreetmap.org/note/214534

Only to now spot this one appearing.
http://www.openstreetmap.org/note/216068

The speed limit was added to this stretch of M25 3 years ago.

Most I have seen have been clearly wrong, 0 kph and 10kph is not a valid
speed limit. 

These notes do seem numerous and are creating a lot of noise making
other valid notes hard to spot. 

Phil (trigpoint)


> Cheers,
> Martin
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Re: [OSM-talk] "Incorrect speed limit" anonymous notes - who is behind that?

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

Il giorno 11/ago/2014, alle ore 12:25, Norbert Wenzel 
 ha scritto:

>> Anyway "Incorrect speed limit" is one that needs a survey, but not
>> really clarification.
> 
> You could solve every problem in OSM by survey, but what's the point of
> notes saying "survey needed"?


It is like a fix me, it reports a wrong speed limit which are otherwise hard to 
spot



> 
> A lot of messages posted with the same text and known to be of dubious
> quality


Have there been cases where at the time the note was created the speed limit in 
osm was actually correct?

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [OSM-talk] "Incorrect speed limit" anonymous notes - who is behind that?

[Norbert Wenzel]

On 08/11/2014 10:29 AM, Ed Loach wrote:
>> Since these notes are automatically generated there's no on you
>> could
>> ask for clarifications, which is needed for all issues. 
> 
> Are we still talking "Incorrect speed limit"? What clarification
> does that need? [...]

The start and end of the speed limit are not given. That's what I would
usually ask. And there are speed limits reported that I just don't
believe, eg. the famous 0km/h or 105km/h. Or speed limits in areas with
variable speed limits already tagged in OSM. An application that uses
OSM data and (semi)automatically reports issues should imo filter
obvious errors and *at least give a way for OSM to get in touch with the
application team* to tell them about problems in their
application/version of the OSM data.

> Anyway "Incorrect speed limit" is one that needs a survey, but not
> really clarification.

You could solve every problem in OSM by survey, but what's the point of
notes saying "survey needed"?

A lot of messages posted with the same text and known to be of dubious
quality are hiding those messages that are posted by a user on the
osm.org website. Usually users who post notes on the osm.org check back
if the map has changed so I'd like to fix these first.

I think this all boils down to the need for different categories of
notes. Those posted by single users that spot an error on the map and
who care about that report enough to possibly check back and give
further details and those of datausers that have their own crowd (or
tool/validator) that reports errors in the datausers version of OSM data
and where the user might not even know he has put a note on the osm.org
website, so no answer or feedback can be expected (and the report might
be bogus since the error might only be in the datausers data/app).

Norbert

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Re: [OSM-talk] "Incorrect speed limit" anonymous notes - who is behind that?

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

> Il giorno 11/ago/2014, alle ore 10:29, "Ed Loach"  ha 
> scritto:
> 
> Anyway "Incorrect speed limit" is one that needs a survey, but not
> really clarification.


+1, I also don't think this can be reported "automatically" (a preconfigured 
text is not something I'd call "automatically reporting". If these had been 
entered by comparison with another source this would obviously be different...

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [OSM-talk] "Incorrect speed limit" anonymous notes - who is behind that?

[Tom Hughes]

On 10/08/14 21:16, Norbert Wenzel wrote:


Since these notes are automatically generated there's no on you could
ask for clarifications, which is needed for all issues. And that has
been tried. The quality of these reports has already been discussed on
this list so I don't see any value in these notes. And I don't think I'm
alone with my judgment since most if not all of these notes have been
closed by now by different users.


Just to let people know, I have now managed to make contact with the 
authors of the app that is creating these notes and they are now 
reviewing the comments in this thread and working on improvements.


Tom

--
Tom Hughes (t...@compton.nu)
http://compton.nu/

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Re: [OSM-talk] "Incorrect speed limit" anonymous notes - who is behind that?

[Peter Wendorff]

Hi,
A distinction between field notes and armchair IMHO goes too far.
Instead a kind of "field flag" might help, which can be seen as "this
note has to be reviewed by someone with detailled on-the-ground
knowledge or being present on the ground".

On the other hand there's the "problem" of an increasing number of notes.
I see two different problems here.

1) Too many notes I cannot solve: Motivation goes down, and I start to
close notes just to get rid of them although they are neither solved nor
correctly identified as being invalid.
This is an individual problem for each (maintaining) mapper. I would
like to see something like "hide this node for me", perhaps with an
optional "...until it is changed or commented by someone else". This
would allow armchair mappers to "clean up" the notes as far as possible
without being disturbed by irrelevant notes being processed already.

2) What is the purpose of notes?
There are private notes of mappers for themself to fix problems later;
often these aren't explained in detail as the mapper relies on his
memory to understand it. Those might be solved by allowing "private
notes" as mentioned by others.
There are "bug notes", where something is wrong in the map in contrast
to "missing notes", where something is missing. Both may be valuable,
some for locals, some for armchair mappers, some for both, and others
for nobody.
The distinction between "armchair" and "field" is difficult. Of course
there are Germans or HOT-people who "armchair-map" somewhere else in the
world or something like that, but I don't think it would solve the
issue. I think, although those don't call themself armchair-mappers,
most of these issues arise where someone checks his own city, or the
region around for bugs. Bugs where the mapper might go to in the field
if necessary, if not now, then in the next weeks or months, becoming a
field mapper by doing that. Moreover most armchair mappers (I hope) are
field mappers in their local area. It would therefore require to decide
about "my own field mapping area" versus "the rest of the world" to show
or hide the one or the other set of nodes.

To conclude: I think there's the chance for improvement of the notes
system, but closing notes should be done with care, and only where it is
clear that the note is either solved or unsolvable/wrong.

regards
Peter

Am 10.08.2014 um 14:10 schrieb Matthijs Melissen:
> I see a lot of comments like this. The underlying problem seems to be
> that it is not clear whether notes are meant for armchair mappers, or
> for surveyors in the field.
> 
> I think both types of notes are useful: that way the notes can serve
> as a two-way communication between mappers in the field (for example
> novices who don't know how to edit the map themselves) and armchair
> mappers (who might want to communicate with mappers in the field if
> they are unable to do a field check themselves at that moment).
> 
> So the solution might be very simple: make two types of notes, 'desk'
> notes and 'field' notes. The desk notes can be handled by armchair
> mappers. The field notes need a check in the field. Notes created by
> anonymous users should be desk notes by default, and if information is
> missing, the armchair mapper should be able to turn it into a field
> note.
> 
> The notes JB refers seem to be field-type notes. I think they are
> useful, and I think it's not helpful if armchair mappers try to close
> all of them without doing a survey.
> 
> Anyone think a split in field and desk notes is a good idea?
> Implementation of this should be easy.
> 
> -- Matthijs
> 
> On 10 August 2014 11:50, JB  wrote:
>> Hello,
>> I think I will reopen the debate here, by asking a simple question: how many
>> of those saying "hey, let this note open, it does no harm to anybody" have
>> actually browsed a country for its opened notes and tried to close them? How
>> many have done the same with openstreetbugs during its last year of life?
>> If you have not, let me tell you, loud and clear: the note database will
>> become unusable soon. When you browse 10 notes and are forced to leave 9
>> open because it does provide no clean information, you just stop trying.
>> That is why during OSB close up, I found so many notes of that kind
>> (continue the path, this is wrong, this does not exist, etc.), that where
>> just not clear enough, or where just too old (the correction had been done
>> without OSB), and most of them where more than 2 years old. And this is why
>> OSB was a mess in the end.
>> I have tried to keep the DB clean in France, am still trying by beeing less
>> narrow-minded, but I just see its quality decreasing every day.
>> So I do not have the exact number, but adding some 10s of little valued
>> notes every week saying "this speed limit may be wrong", some of them added
>> by error (not along a highway) does not seem an improvement to the notes DB
>> to me.
>> JB.
>>
>>
>> Le 10/08/2014 09:42, Martin Koppenhoefer a écrit :
>>
>>>
 Il gio

Re: [OSM-talk] "Incorrect speed limit" anonymous notes - who is behind that?

[Ed Loach]

> Since these notes are automatically generated there's no on you
> could
> ask for clarifications, which is needed for all issues. 

Are we still talking "Incorrect speed limit"? What clarification
does that need? I used to get a lot of similar reports from
Skobbler, so mapped all the local speed limits and then they stopped
being reported as missing or wrong. Having said that you then need
to monitor for changes (in my case I try and watch public notices in
the local newspaper and add a note if I read about a planned change,
so I or any other mapper can actually monitor for the signs
changing).

Anyway "Incorrect speed limit" is one that needs a survey, but not
really clarification.

Ed


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Re: [OSM-talk] "Incorrect speed limit" anonymous notes - who is behind that?

[Norbert Wenzel]

On 08/10/2014 09:42 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
>> Il giorno 09/ago/2014, alle ore 13:56, Norbert Wenzel 
>>  ha scritto:
>>
>> just seeing these notes along a
>> motorway every few kilometers. And since these messages don't tell what
>> the actual speed limit should be and where it starts it gets really
>> annoying to close all these automatically generated notes.
> 
> 
> why are you closing them, if you can't solve the issue? I would keep them 
> open, if you are not sure that the limit is correct in OSM

Since these notes are automatically generated there's no on you could
ask for clarifications, which is needed for all issues. And that has
been tried. The quality of these reports has already been discussed on
this list so I don't see any value in these notes. And I don't think I'm
alone with my judgment since most if not all of these notes have been
closed by now by different users.

Just for clarification, only these special, automatically posted notes
are closed.

The alternative to closing in my mind would be to post some disclaimer
text, that points out the poor quality of the tool that creates these
issues so other editors are warned, even if they don't know about this
discussion here.

Norbert


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Re: [OSM-talk] "Incorrect speed limit" anonymous notes - who is behind that?

[Philip Barnes]

On Sun, 2014-08-10 at 15:13 +0100, John Sturdy wrote:
> I wonder whether these "incorrect speed limit" notes might not be
> reporting that the speed limit on the map isn't what it is on the
> road, but someone objecting to what the speed limit on the road is,
> and making a token protest about it?
> 
Most I have seen are plain ridiculous. Apart from the obvious error of
using kph in the UK, and USA? Many are 0 (impossible or 10 (really
unlikely). The only valid speed I have found was telling me that the
speed limit on the M25 is 70mph, which was of course already tagged.

There is a lot of accidental misuse of notes, where they are used to tag
"meet here", "the site" and so on. These are things that should use the
share button, but the misuse is understandable, the word note does not
imply suggest improvement or highlight omission. A note in normal usage
is something private and informal.

It would be interesting to know where these speed limit notes are coming
from, if an app is posting then it is only good manners to say who you
are.

Speed limits are an area in which we are lacking in many areas, but they
are also something that needs careful surveying. I am certainly working
on these where I can. But it is a slow process, notes highlighting a
missing speed limit in a cul-de-sac are not likely to make any mapper
change their mapping plan.

Phil (trigpoint)


> On Sun, Aug 10, 2014 at 1:24 PM, JB  wrote:
> > Have a look  there:
> > https://github.com/openstreetmap/openstreetmap-website/issues/486
> > If categories are create (and I think they should), I would still add
> > private notes/heavy duty work
> > JB.
> >
> > Le 10/08/2014 14:10, Matthijs Melissen a écrit :
> >
> >> I see a lot of comments like this. The underlying problem seems to be
> >> that it is not clear whether notes are meant for armchair mappers, or
> >> for surveyors in the field.
> >>
> >> I think both types of notes are useful: that way the notes can serve
> >> as a two-way communication between mappers in the field (for example
> >> novices who don't know how to edit the map themselves) and armchair
> >> mappers (who might want to communicate with mappers in the field if
> >> they are unable to do a field check themselves at that moment).
> >>
> >> So the solution might be very simple: make two types of notes, 'desk'
> >> notes and 'field' notes. The desk notes can be handled by armchair
> >> mappers. The field notes need a check in the field. Notes created by
> >> anonymous users should be desk notes by default, and if information is
> >> missing, the armchair mapper should be able to turn it into a field
> >> note.
> >>
> >> The notes JB refers seem to be field-type notes. I think they are
> >> useful, and I think it's not helpful if armchair mappers try to close
> >> all of them without doing a survey.
> >>
> >> Anyone think a split in field and desk notes is a good idea?
> >> Implementation of this should be easy.
> >>
> >> -- Matthijs
> >>
> >> On 10 August 2014 11:50, JB  wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Hello,
> >>> I think I will reopen the debate here, by asking a simple question: how
> >>> many
> >>> of those saying "hey, let this note open, it does no harm to anybody"
> >>> have
> >>> actually browsed a country for its opened notes and tried to close them?
> >>> How
> >>> many have done the same with openstreetbugs during its last year of life?
> >>> If you have not, let me tell you, loud and clear: the note database will
> >>> become unusable soon. When you browse 10 notes and are forced to leave 9
> >>> open because it does provide no clean information, you just stop trying.
> >>> That is why during OSB close up, I found so many notes of that kind
> >>> (continue the path, this is wrong, this does not exist, etc.), that where
> >>> just not clear enough, or where just too old (the correction had been
> >>> done
> >>> without OSB), and most of them where more than 2 years old. And this is
> >>> why
> >>> OSB was a mess in the end.
> >>> I have tried to keep the DB clean in France, am still trying by beeing
> >>> less
> >>> narrow-minded, but I just see its quality decreasing every day.
> >>> So I do not have the exact number, but adding some 10s of little valued
> >>> notes every week saying "this speed limit may be wrong", some of them
> >>> added
> >>> by error (not along a highway) does not seem an improvement to the notes
> >>> DB
> >>> to me.
> >>> JB.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Le 10/08/2014 09:42, Martin Koppenhoefer a écrit :
> >>>
> > Il giorno 09/ago/2014, alle ore 13:56, Norbert Wenzel
> >  ha scritto:
> >
> > just seeing these notes along a
> > motorway every few kilometers. And since these messages don't tell what
> > the actual speed limit should be and where it starts it gets really
> > annoying to close all these automatically generated notes.
> 
> 
>  why are you closing them, if you can't solve the issue? I would keep
>  them
>  open, if you are not sure that the limit is correc

Re: [OSM-talk] "Incorrect speed limit" anonymous notes - who is behind that?

[SomeoneElse]

On 10/08/2014 11:50, JB wrote:

Hello,
I think I will reopen the debate here, by asking a simple question: 
how many of those saying "hey, let this note open, it does no harm to 
anybody" have actually browsed a country for its opened notes and 
tried to close them? 


Yes, I do this all the time, in the sense that if I'm going to be 
mapping somewhere I'll extract notes for that area and stick them on the 
Garmin, and if I'm near one I'll go and have a look and see if I can 
resolve it, or perhaps even just add a bit more information to it.


How many have done the same with openstreetbugs during its last year 
of life?


No, but that's to do with never having extracted OSB bugs from the dump 
and converted to something that a Garmin can understand, rather than 
what's in there being old and out of date (though I'd agree with you 
that in OSB's case it was).


Some notes will need an on-the-ground survey, and some of those notes 
will be in places where there currently aren't active on-the-ground 
mappers.  Surely the solution here is not to close the notes but to try 
and engage more new local mappers who can then supply the missing 
information?


Cheers,

Andy


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Re: [OSM-talk] "Incorrect speed limit" anonymous notes - who is behind that?

[John Sturdy]

I wonder whether these "incorrect speed limit" notes might not be
reporting that the speed limit on the map isn't what it is on the
road, but someone objecting to what the speed limit on the road is,
and making a token protest about it?


On Sun, Aug 10, 2014 at 1:24 PM, JB  wrote:
> Have a look  there:
> https://github.com/openstreetmap/openstreetmap-website/issues/486
> If categories are create (and I think they should), I would still add
> private notes/heavy duty work
> JB.
>
> Le 10/08/2014 14:10, Matthijs Melissen a écrit :
>
>> I see a lot of comments like this. The underlying problem seems to be
>> that it is not clear whether notes are meant for armchair mappers, or
>> for surveyors in the field.
>>
>> I think both types of notes are useful: that way the notes can serve
>> as a two-way communication between mappers in the field (for example
>> novices who don't know how to edit the map themselves) and armchair
>> mappers (who might want to communicate with mappers in the field if
>> they are unable to do a field check themselves at that moment).
>>
>> So the solution might be very simple: make two types of notes, 'desk'
>> notes and 'field' notes. The desk notes can be handled by armchair
>> mappers. The field notes need a check in the field. Notes created by
>> anonymous users should be desk notes by default, and if information is
>> missing, the armchair mapper should be able to turn it into a field
>> note.
>>
>> The notes JB refers seem to be field-type notes. I think they are
>> useful, and I think it's not helpful if armchair mappers try to close
>> all of them without doing a survey.
>>
>> Anyone think a split in field and desk notes is a good idea?
>> Implementation of this should be easy.
>>
>> -- Matthijs
>>
>> On 10 August 2014 11:50, JB  wrote:
>>>
>>> Hello,
>>> I think I will reopen the debate here, by asking a simple question: how
>>> many
>>> of those saying "hey, let this note open, it does no harm to anybody"
>>> have
>>> actually browsed a country for its opened notes and tried to close them?
>>> How
>>> many have done the same with openstreetbugs during its last year of life?
>>> If you have not, let me tell you, loud and clear: the note database will
>>> become unusable soon. When you browse 10 notes and are forced to leave 9
>>> open because it does provide no clean information, you just stop trying.
>>> That is why during OSB close up, I found so many notes of that kind
>>> (continue the path, this is wrong, this does not exist, etc.), that where
>>> just not clear enough, or where just too old (the correction had been
>>> done
>>> without OSB), and most of them where more than 2 years old. And this is
>>> why
>>> OSB was a mess in the end.
>>> I have tried to keep the DB clean in France, am still trying by beeing
>>> less
>>> narrow-minded, but I just see its quality decreasing every day.
>>> So I do not have the exact number, but adding some 10s of little valued
>>> notes every week saying "this speed limit may be wrong", some of them
>>> added
>>> by error (not along a highway) does not seem an improvement to the notes
>>> DB
>>> to me.
>>> JB.
>>>
>>>
>>> Le 10/08/2014 09:42, Martin Koppenhoefer a écrit :
>>>
> Il giorno 09/ago/2014, alle ore 13:56, Norbert Wenzel
>  ha scritto:
>
> just seeing these notes along a
> motorway every few kilometers. And since these messages don't tell what
> the actual speed limit should be and where it starts it gets really
> annoying to close all these automatically generated notes.


 why are you closing them, if you can't solve the issue? I would keep
 them
 open, if you are not sure that the limit is correct in OSM

 cheers,
 Martin
 ___
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 talk@openstreetmap.org
 https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>
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Re: [OSM-talk] "Incorrect speed limit" anonymous notes - who is behind that?

[JB]

Have a look  there: 
https://github.com/openstreetmap/openstreetmap-website/issues/486
If categories are create (and I think they should), I would still add 
private notes/heavy duty work

JB.

Le 10/08/2014 14:10, Matthijs Melissen a écrit :

I see a lot of comments like this. The underlying problem seems to be
that it is not clear whether notes are meant for armchair mappers, or
for surveyors in the field.

I think both types of notes are useful: that way the notes can serve
as a two-way communication between mappers in the field (for example
novices who don't know how to edit the map themselves) and armchair
mappers (who might want to communicate with mappers in the field if
they are unable to do a field check themselves at that moment).

So the solution might be very simple: make two types of notes, 'desk'
notes and 'field' notes. The desk notes can be handled by armchair
mappers. The field notes need a check in the field. Notes created by
anonymous users should be desk notes by default, and if information is
missing, the armchair mapper should be able to turn it into a field
note.

The notes JB refers seem to be field-type notes. I think they are
useful, and I think it's not helpful if armchair mappers try to close
all of them without doing a survey.

Anyone think a split in field and desk notes is a good idea?
Implementation of this should be easy.

-- Matthijs

On 10 August 2014 11:50, JB  wrote:

Hello,
I think I will reopen the debate here, by asking a simple question: how many
of those saying "hey, let this note open, it does no harm to anybody" have
actually browsed a country for its opened notes and tried to close them? How
many have done the same with openstreetbugs during its last year of life?
If you have not, let me tell you, loud and clear: the note database will
become unusable soon. When you browse 10 notes and are forced to leave 9
open because it does provide no clean information, you just stop trying.
That is why during OSB close up, I found so many notes of that kind
(continue the path, this is wrong, this does not exist, etc.), that where
just not clear enough, or where just too old (the correction had been done
without OSB), and most of them where more than 2 years old. And this is why
OSB was a mess in the end.
I have tried to keep the DB clean in France, am still trying by beeing less
narrow-minded, but I just see its quality decreasing every day.
So I do not have the exact number, but adding some 10s of little valued
notes every week saying "this speed limit may be wrong", some of them added
by error (not along a highway) does not seem an improvement to the notes DB
to me.
JB.


Le 10/08/2014 09:42, Martin Koppenhoefer a écrit :


Il giorno 09/ago/2014, alle ore 13:56, Norbert Wenzel
 ha scritto:

just seeing these notes along a
motorway every few kilometers. And since these messages don't tell what
the actual speed limit should be and where it starts it gets really
annoying to close all these automatically generated notes.


why are you closing them, if you can't solve the issue? I would keep them
open, if you are not sure that the limit is correct in OSM

cheers,
Martin
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Re: [OSM-talk] "Incorrect speed limit" anonymous notes - who is behind that?

[Matthijs Melissen]

I see a lot of comments like this. The underlying problem seems to be
that it is not clear whether notes are meant for armchair mappers, or
for surveyors in the field.

I think both types of notes are useful: that way the notes can serve
as a two-way communication between mappers in the field (for example
novices who don't know how to edit the map themselves) and armchair
mappers (who might want to communicate with mappers in the field if
they are unable to do a field check themselves at that moment).

So the solution might be very simple: make two types of notes, 'desk'
notes and 'field' notes. The desk notes can be handled by armchair
mappers. The field notes need a check in the field. Notes created by
anonymous users should be desk notes by default, and if information is
missing, the armchair mapper should be able to turn it into a field
note.

The notes JB refers seem to be field-type notes. I think they are
useful, and I think it's not helpful if armchair mappers try to close
all of them without doing a survey.

Anyone think a split in field and desk notes is a good idea?
Implementation of this should be easy.

-- Matthijs

On 10 August 2014 11:50, JB  wrote:
> Hello,
> I think I will reopen the debate here, by asking a simple question: how many
> of those saying "hey, let this note open, it does no harm to anybody" have
> actually browsed a country for its opened notes and tried to close them? How
> many have done the same with openstreetbugs during its last year of life?
> If you have not, let me tell you, loud and clear: the note database will
> become unusable soon. When you browse 10 notes and are forced to leave 9
> open because it does provide no clean information, you just stop trying.
> That is why during OSB close up, I found so many notes of that kind
> (continue the path, this is wrong, this does not exist, etc.), that where
> just not clear enough, or where just too old (the correction had been done
> without OSB), and most of them where more than 2 years old. And this is why
> OSB was a mess in the end.
> I have tried to keep the DB clean in France, am still trying by beeing less
> narrow-minded, but I just see its quality decreasing every day.
> So I do not have the exact number, but adding some 10s of little valued
> notes every week saying "this speed limit may be wrong", some of them added
> by error (not along a highway) does not seem an improvement to the notes DB
> to me.
> JB.
>
>
> Le 10/08/2014 09:42, Martin Koppenhoefer a écrit :
>
>>
>>> Il giorno 09/ago/2014, alle ore 13:56, Norbert Wenzel
>>>  ha scritto:
>>>
>>> just seeing these notes along a
>>> motorway every few kilometers. And since these messages don't tell what
>>> the actual speed limit should be and where it starts it gets really
>>> annoying to close all these automatically generated notes.
>>
>>
>> why are you closing them, if you can't solve the issue? I would keep them
>> open, if you are not sure that the limit is correct in OSM
>>
>> cheers,
>> Martin
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Re: [OSM-talk] "Incorrect speed limit" anonymous notes - who is behind that?

[JB]

Hello,
I think I will reopen the debate here, by asking a simple question: how 
many of those saying "hey, let this note open, it does no harm to 
anybody" have actually browsed a country for its opened notes and tried 
to close them? How many have done the same with openstreetbugs during 
its last year of life?
If you have not, let me tell you, loud and clear: the note database will 
become unusable soon. When you browse 10 notes and are forced to leave 9 
open because it does provide no clean information, you just stop trying. 
That is why during OSB close up, I found so many notes of that kind 
(continue the path, this is wrong, this does not exist, etc.), that 
where just not clear enough, or where just too old (the correction had 
been done without OSB), and most of them where more than 2 years old. 
And this is why OSB was a mess in the end.
I have tried to keep the DB clean in France, am still trying by beeing 
less narrow-minded, but I just see its quality decreasing every day.
So I do not have the exact number, but adding some 10s of little valued 
notes every week saying "this speed limit may be wrong", some of them 
added by error (not along a highway) does not seem an improvement to the 
notes DB to me.

JB.


Le 10/08/2014 09:42, Martin Koppenhoefer a écrit :



Il giorno 09/ago/2014, alle ore 13:56, Norbert Wenzel 
 ha scritto:

just seeing these notes along a
motorway every few kilometers. And since these messages don't tell what
the actual speed limit should be and where it starts it gets really
annoying to close all these automatically generated notes.


why are you closing them, if you can't solve the issue? I would keep them open, 
if you are not sure that the limit is correct in OSM

cheers,
Martin
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Re: [OSM-talk] "Incorrect speed limit" anonymous notes - who is behind that?

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

> Il giorno 09/ago/2014, alle ore 13:56, Norbert Wenzel 
>  ha scritto:
> 
> just seeing these notes along a
> motorway every few kilometers. And since these messages don't tell what
> the actual speed limit should be and where it starts it gets really
> annoying to close all these automatically generated notes.


why are you closing them, if you can't solve the issue? I would keep them open, 
if you are not sure that the limit is correct in OSM

cheers,
Martin
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Re: [OSM-talk] "Incorrect speed limit" anonymous notes - who is behind that?

[Norbert Wenzel]

On 07/29/2014 01:06 AM, Tom Hughes wrote:
> On 28/07/14 23:38, Michał Brzozowski wrote:
> 
>> Recently I saw anonymous notes being added of the form "Incorrect
>> speed limit. Reported speed limit is X km/h".
>> Here's a search query:
>> http://api.openstreetmap.org/api/0.6/notes/search?q=Incorrect%20speed%20limit.%20Reported%20speed%20limit%20is
>>
> 
> Those notes do all appear to be coming from one source - I have sent
> them an email to try and make contact with somebody so we can discuss
> how they can improve things.

Did you get any responses so far? I'm just seeing these notes along a
motorway every few kilometers. And since these messages don't tell what
the actual speed limit should be and where it starts it gets really
annoying to close all these automatically generated notes.

Norbert


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Re: [OSM-talk] "Incorrect speed limit" anonymous notes - who is behind that?

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

> Am 29/lug/2014 um 13:39 schrieb Peter Wendorff :
> 
> as it is even more difficult (if
> possible) to detect where there are errors (!) in existing speed limits.


personally I also map sign positions (nodes aside the road), because it really 
helps for verifying what is mapped on the road, how long a speed limit is valid 
etc.

cheers,
Martin
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Re: [OSM-talk] "Incorrect speed limit" anonymous notes - who is behind that?

[Shaun McDonald]

Hi Peter,

Unfortunately we don’t take account of any country defaults due to the 
complexities involved.

I’m sure that someone will come up with a tool to highlight the problems if a 
national speed limit does change, especially if the maxspeed:type is used 
appropriately.

Shaun

On 29 Jul 2014, at 12:39, Peter Wendorff  wrote:

> Hi Shaun,
> 
> if I understand these maps correctly, they show streets without a
> maxspeed tag, but not msising maxspeed restrictions under the assumption
> of a national default or something like that (although it seems not so
> show any "missing maxspeed" in Germany, so there might be something like
> that applied).
> 
> If maxspeed is and should be applied on any street, this works, but only
> until speed limits change.
> If you imply the default according to highway class and location, it
> fails as many roads do follow these defaults and cannot be counted as
> "missing", nor is it possible to decide where else a maxspeed is missing
> then.
> 
> In any case reporting missing maxspeeds will work only until the speed
> limit is changed on the ground as it is even more difficult (if
> possible) to detect where there are errors (!) in existing speed limits.
> 
> regards
> Peter
> 
> Am 29.07.2014 um 13:10 schrieb Shaun McDonald:
>> Hi Peter,
>> 
>> The following ITO Map shows missing maxspeed tags where there isn’t any 
>> purple (mph maxspeed) or dark green (km/h maxspeed) colour:
>> http://www.itoworld.com/map/125?lon=-0.08316&lat=51.51851&zoom=14&open_sidebar=map_key&fullscreen=true
>> 
>> If you want to see the current speed limits see:
>> http://www.itoworld.com/map/124?lon=-0.08316&lat=51.51851&zoom=14&open_sidebar=map_key&fullscreen=true
>> 
>> Clicking the maps gives more info in the sidebar.
>> 
>> Shaun
>> 
>> Disclaimer: Employee of ITO World who produce the maps above.
>> 
>> On 29 Jul 2014, at 11:49, Peter Wendorff  wrote:
>> 
>>> Sorry,
>>> there are QA tools to detect where speed limits are missing?
>>> Can you give me a link?
>>> And - if it's not self explaining: how should that work? I don't see any
>>> way to detect missing speed limits in the data beyond cases where those
>>> are implicit defaults, like 100 on non-trunk roads away from built up
>>> areas in Germany (which is complicated enough to derive from the data),
>>> or 130 for trunk roads (although most often there are lower limits), or
>>> 50 in cities (as the most often down-signed default).
>>> 
>>> So if there is any QA tool that detects that, I fear it uses third party
>>> sources, a reporting system similar to the notes feature, but using a
>>> different channel, or it is restricted to some cornercases only. I doubt
>>> there is something like that which could make notes about speed limit
>>> errors in osm obsolete.
>>> 
>>> IMHO notes are to be checked in person on the ground usually. If there's
>>> nobody in France to do that, yes, then notes will remain in the database
>>> for a long time, but basically they stay correct: Here is something
>>> missing or wrong, please check that on the ground.
>>> 
>>> regards
>>> Peter
>>> 
>>> Am 29.07.2014 um 11:09 schrieb JB:
 I don't necessarily want to analyse once more how the notes are opened,
 closed or not closed and to what aim, nor analyse the end of
 OpenStreetBug life and the quality of the remaining bugs, but in France,
 I have never ever seen anyone comment on someone else's note (or «
 resurvey »). The only comments I have seen were from the note opener,
 when prompted by a potential corrector.
 
 So a note which indicates « probably 90km/h here » or « speed limit is
 not 0km/h » may remain there for years (yes, years), demotivate
 potential note closers, never be closed. I do not think they participate
 to a high quality note db. There are quality assessments tools around
 that allow contributors to detect where speed limits are missing.
 
 JB, with perhaps some bad faith in there, but not that much.
 
 
 Le 29/07/2014 10:19, Steve Doerr a écrit :
> On 29/07/2014 08:32, JB wrote:
> 
>> Anyway, as for most notes concerning speed limits, if you do no have
>> the beginning and the end of the limit, at least in France, the
>> information is quite useless.
> 
> Are we all armchair mappers now? Surely the note should prompt someone
> local to go out to the location and find out where the speed limit
> starts and ends?
> 
 
 
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 talk@openstreetmap.org
 https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
 
>>> 
>>> 
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>> 
>> 
> 
> 
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Re: [OSM-talk] "Incorrect speed limit" anonymous notes - who is behind that?

[Shaun McDonald]

On 29 Jul 2014, at 13:07, Janko Mihelić  wrote:

> 2014-07-29 13:39 GMT+02:00 Peter Wendorff :
> Hi Shaun,
> 
> if I understand these maps correctly, they show streets without a
> maxspeed tag, but not msising maxspeed restrictions under the assumption
> of a national default or something like that (although it seems not so
> show any "missing maxspeed" in Germany, so there might be something like
> that applied).
> 
> There is consensus to tag roads with implied maxspeed with tags like 
> "maxspeed=50 + source:maxspeed=de:urban". So all roads should have maxspeed 
> tags.

In Britain we’ve moved to using the maxspeed:type tag instead of 
source:maxspeed, thus leaving source:maxspeed for how you found out the 
maxspeed:type. e.g. was it a sign, survey, or local knowledge?

Shaun

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Re: [OSM-talk] "Incorrect speed limit" anonymous notes - who is behind that?

[Janko Mihelić]

2014-07-29 13:39 GMT+02:00 Peter Wendorff :

> Hi Shaun,
>
> if I understand these maps correctly, they show streets without a
> maxspeed tag, but not msising maxspeed restrictions under the assumption
> of a national default or something like that (although it seems not so
> show any "missing maxspeed" in Germany, so there might be something like
> that applied).
>

There is consensus to tag roads with implied maxspeed with tags like
"maxspeed=50 + source:maxspeed=de:urban". So all roads should have maxspeed
tags.

Janko
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Re: [OSM-talk] "Incorrect speed limit" anonymous notes - who is behind that?

[Peter Wendorff]

Hi Shaun,

if I understand these maps correctly, they show streets without a
maxspeed tag, but not msising maxspeed restrictions under the assumption
of a national default or something like that (although it seems not so
show any "missing maxspeed" in Germany, so there might be something like
that applied).

If maxspeed is and should be applied on any street, this works, but only
until speed limits change.
If you imply the default according to highway class and location, it
fails as many roads do follow these defaults and cannot be counted as
"missing", nor is it possible to decide where else a maxspeed is missing
then.

In any case reporting missing maxspeeds will work only until the speed
limit is changed on the ground as it is even more difficult (if
possible) to detect where there are errors (!) in existing speed limits.

regards
Peter

Am 29.07.2014 um 13:10 schrieb Shaun McDonald:
> Hi Peter,
> 
> The following ITO Map shows missing maxspeed tags where there isn’t any 
> purple (mph maxspeed) or dark green (km/h maxspeed) colour:
> http://www.itoworld.com/map/125?lon=-0.08316&lat=51.51851&zoom=14&open_sidebar=map_key&fullscreen=true
> 
> If you want to see the current speed limits see:
> http://www.itoworld.com/map/124?lon=-0.08316&lat=51.51851&zoom=14&open_sidebar=map_key&fullscreen=true
> 
> Clicking the maps gives more info in the sidebar.
> 
> Shaun
> 
> Disclaimer: Employee of ITO World who produce the maps above.
> 
> On 29 Jul 2014, at 11:49, Peter Wendorff  wrote:
> 
>> Sorry,
>> there are QA tools to detect where speed limits are missing?
>> Can you give me a link?
>> And - if it's not self explaining: how should that work? I don't see any
>> way to detect missing speed limits in the data beyond cases where those
>> are implicit defaults, like 100 on non-trunk roads away from built up
>> areas in Germany (which is complicated enough to derive from the data),
>> or 130 for trunk roads (although most often there are lower limits), or
>> 50 in cities (as the most often down-signed default).
>>
>> So if there is any QA tool that detects that, I fear it uses third party
>> sources, a reporting system similar to the notes feature, but using a
>> different channel, or it is restricted to some cornercases only. I doubt
>> there is something like that which could make notes about speed limit
>> errors in osm obsolete.
>>
>> IMHO notes are to be checked in person on the ground usually. If there's
>> nobody in France to do that, yes, then notes will remain in the database
>> for a long time, but basically they stay correct: Here is something
>> missing or wrong, please check that on the ground.
>>
>> regards
>> Peter
>>
>> Am 29.07.2014 um 11:09 schrieb JB:
>>> I don't necessarily want to analyse once more how the notes are opened,
>>> closed or not closed and to what aim, nor analyse the end of
>>> OpenStreetBug life and the quality of the remaining bugs, but in France,
>>> I have never ever seen anyone comment on someone else's note (or «
>>> resurvey »). The only comments I have seen were from the note opener,
>>> when prompted by a potential corrector.
>>>
>>> So a note which indicates « probably 90km/h here » or « speed limit is
>>> not 0km/h » may remain there for years (yes, years), demotivate
>>> potential note closers, never be closed. I do not think they participate
>>> to a high quality note db. There are quality assessments tools around
>>> that allow contributors to detect where speed limits are missing.
>>>
>>> JB, with perhaps some bad faith in there, but not that much.
>>>
>>>
>>> Le 29/07/2014 10:19, Steve Doerr a écrit :
 On 29/07/2014 08:32, JB wrote:

> Anyway, as for most notes concerning speed limits, if you do no have
> the beginning and the end of the limit, at least in France, the
> information is quite useless.

 Are we all armchair mappers now? Surely the note should prompt someone
 local to go out to the location and find out where the speed limit
 starts and ends?

>>>
>>>
>>> ___
>>> talk mailing list
>>> talk@openstreetmap.org
>>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>>>
>>
>>
>> ___
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>> talk@openstreetmap.org
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
> 
> 


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Re: [OSM-talk] "Incorrect speed limit" anonymous notes - who is behind that?

[JB]

Hello,
Not sure it is safe to go on such a discussion that may turn sour soon 
only because of different views on how notes should be used… Lets say I 
try to keep the db as clean as possible without getting too much 
angryness here in France, but am also wondering on how the situation 
will look like, say, in one year in some countries. Lets also state that 
I do not think OSB was a « great » database at the end of its existence 
(yes, I closed many many bugs there when it was shut down).
For QA tools, I consider these as QA, that also allow to spot where 
speed limits are missing:

http://www.itoworld.com/map/124?lon=2.35202&lat=48.82157&zoom=10
http://www.itoworld.com/map/125?lon=2.34994&lat=48.82676&zoom=10
and some (but only a few) analyses from osmose:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/FR:Osmose/erreurs
I do not expect an answer, let's cool down,
JB.


Le 29/07/2014 12:49, Peter Wendorff a écrit :

Sorry,
there are QA tools to detect where speed limits are missing?
Can you give me a link?
And - if it's not self explaining: how should that work? I don't see any
way to detect missing speed limits in the data beyond cases where those
are implicit defaults, like 100 on non-trunk roads away from built up
areas in Germany (which is complicated enough to derive from the data),
or 130 for trunk roads (although most often there are lower limits), or
50 in cities (as the most often down-signed default).

So if there is any QA tool that detects that, I fear it uses third party
sources, a reporting system similar to the notes feature, but using a
different channel, or it is restricted to some cornercases only. I doubt
there is something like that which could make notes about speed limit
errors in osm obsolete.

IMHO notes are to be checked in person on the ground usually. If there's
nobody in France to do that, yes, then notes will remain in the database
for a long time, but basically they stay correct: Here is something
missing or wrong, please check that on the ground.

regards
Peter

Am 29.07.2014 um 11:09 schrieb JB:

I don't necessarily want to analyse once more how the notes are opened,
closed or not closed and to what aim, nor analyse the end of
OpenStreetBug life and the quality of the remaining bugs, but in France,
I have never ever seen anyone comment on someone else's note (or «
resurvey »). The only comments I have seen were from the note opener,
when prompted by a potential corrector.

So a note which indicates « probably 90km/h here » or « speed limit is
not 0km/h » may remain there for years (yes, years), demotivate
potential note closers, never be closed. I do not think they participate
to a high quality note db. There are quality assessments tools around
that allow contributors to detect where speed limits are missing.

JB, with perhaps some bad faith in there, but not that much.


Le 29/07/2014 10:19, Steve Doerr a écrit :

On 29/07/2014 08:32, JB wrote:


Anyway, as for most notes concerning speed limits, if you do no have
the beginning and the end of the limit, at least in France, the
information is quite useless.

Are we all armchair mappers now? Surely the note should prompt someone
local to go out to the location and find out where the speed limit
starts and ends?



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Re: [OSM-talk] "Incorrect speed limit" anonymous notes - who is behind that?

[Shaun McDonald]

Hi Peter,

The following ITO Map shows missing maxspeed tags where there isn’t any purple 
(mph maxspeed) or dark green (km/h maxspeed) colour:
http://www.itoworld.com/map/125?lon=-0.08316&lat=51.51851&zoom=14&open_sidebar=map_key&fullscreen=true

If you want to see the current speed limits see:
http://www.itoworld.com/map/124?lon=-0.08316&lat=51.51851&zoom=14&open_sidebar=map_key&fullscreen=true

Clicking the maps gives more info in the sidebar.

Shaun

Disclaimer: Employee of ITO World who produce the maps above.

On 29 Jul 2014, at 11:49, Peter Wendorff  wrote:

> Sorry,
> there are QA tools to detect where speed limits are missing?
> Can you give me a link?
> And - if it's not self explaining: how should that work? I don't see any
> way to detect missing speed limits in the data beyond cases where those
> are implicit defaults, like 100 on non-trunk roads away from built up
> areas in Germany (which is complicated enough to derive from the data),
> or 130 for trunk roads (although most often there are lower limits), or
> 50 in cities (as the most often down-signed default).
> 
> So if there is any QA tool that detects that, I fear it uses third party
> sources, a reporting system similar to the notes feature, but using a
> different channel, or it is restricted to some cornercases only. I doubt
> there is something like that which could make notes about speed limit
> errors in osm obsolete.
> 
> IMHO notes are to be checked in person on the ground usually. If there's
> nobody in France to do that, yes, then notes will remain in the database
> for a long time, but basically they stay correct: Here is something
> missing or wrong, please check that on the ground.
> 
> regards
> Peter
> 
> Am 29.07.2014 um 11:09 schrieb JB:
>> I don't necessarily want to analyse once more how the notes are opened,
>> closed or not closed and to what aim, nor analyse the end of
>> OpenStreetBug life and the quality of the remaining bugs, but in France,
>> I have never ever seen anyone comment on someone else's note (or «
>> resurvey »). The only comments I have seen were from the note opener,
>> when prompted by a potential corrector.
>> 
>> So a note which indicates « probably 90km/h here » or « speed limit is
>> not 0km/h » may remain there for years (yes, years), demotivate
>> potential note closers, never be closed. I do not think they participate
>> to a high quality note db. There are quality assessments tools around
>> that allow contributors to detect where speed limits are missing.
>> 
>> JB, with perhaps some bad faith in there, but not that much.
>> 
>> 
>> Le 29/07/2014 10:19, Steve Doerr a écrit :
>>> On 29/07/2014 08:32, JB wrote:
>>> 
 Anyway, as for most notes concerning speed limits, if you do no have
 the beginning and the end of the limit, at least in France, the
 information is quite useless.
>>> 
>>> Are we all armchair mappers now? Surely the note should prompt someone
>>> local to go out to the location and find out where the speed limit
>>> starts and ends?
>>> 
>> 
>> 
>> ___
>> talk mailing list
>> talk@openstreetmap.org
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>> 
> 
> 
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Re: [OSM-talk] "Incorrect speed limit" anonymous notes - who is behind that?

[Peter Wendorff]

Sorry,
there are QA tools to detect where speed limits are missing?
Can you give me a link?
And - if it's not self explaining: how should that work? I don't see any
way to detect missing speed limits in the data beyond cases where those
are implicit defaults, like 100 on non-trunk roads away from built up
areas in Germany (which is complicated enough to derive from the data),
or 130 for trunk roads (although most often there are lower limits), or
50 in cities (as the most often down-signed default).

So if there is any QA tool that detects that, I fear it uses third party
sources, a reporting system similar to the notes feature, but using a
different channel, or it is restricted to some cornercases only. I doubt
there is something like that which could make notes about speed limit
errors in osm obsolete.

IMHO notes are to be checked in person on the ground usually. If there's
nobody in France to do that, yes, then notes will remain in the database
for a long time, but basically they stay correct: Here is something
missing or wrong, please check that on the ground.

regards
Peter

Am 29.07.2014 um 11:09 schrieb JB:
> I don't necessarily want to analyse once more how the notes are opened,
> closed or not closed and to what aim, nor analyse the end of
> OpenStreetBug life and the quality of the remaining bugs, but in France,
> I have never ever seen anyone comment on someone else's note (or «
> resurvey »). The only comments I have seen were from the note opener,
> when prompted by a potential corrector.
> 
> So a note which indicates « probably 90km/h here » or « speed limit is
> not 0km/h » may remain there for years (yes, years), demotivate
> potential note closers, never be closed. I do not think they participate
> to a high quality note db. There are quality assessments tools around
> that allow contributors to detect where speed limits are missing.
> 
> JB, with perhaps some bad faith in there, but not that much.
> 
> 
> Le 29/07/2014 10:19, Steve Doerr a écrit :
>> On 29/07/2014 08:32, JB wrote:
>>
>>> Anyway, as for most notes concerning speed limits, if you do no have
>>> the beginning and the end of the limit, at least in France, the
>>> information is quite useless.
>>
>> Are we all armchair mappers now? Surely the note should prompt someone
>> local to go out to the location and find out where the speed limit
>> starts and ends?
>>
> 
> 
> ___
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Re: [OSM-talk] "Incorrect speed limit" anonymous notes - who is behind that?

[JB]

I don't necessarily want to analyse once more how the notes are opened, 
closed or not closed and to what aim, nor analyse the end of 
OpenStreetBug life and the quality of the remaining bugs, but in France, 
I have never ever seen anyone comment on someone else's note (or « 
resurvey »). The only comments I have seen were from the note opener, 
when prompted by a potential corrector.


So a note which indicates « probably 90km/h here » or « speed limit is 
not 0km/h » may remain there for years (yes, years), demotivate 
potential note closers, never be closed. I do not think they participate 
to a high quality note db. There are quality assessments tools around 
that allow contributors to detect where speed limits are missing.


JB, with perhaps some bad faith in there, but not that much.


Le 29/07/2014 10:19, Steve Doerr a écrit :

On 29/07/2014 08:32, JB wrote:

Anyway, as for most notes concerning speed limits, if you do no have 
the beginning and the end of the limit, at least in France, the 
information is quite useless.


Are we all armchair mappers now? Surely the note should prompt someone 
local to go out to the location and find out where the speed limit 
starts and ends?





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Re: [OSM-talk] "Incorrect speed limit" anonymous notes - who is behind that?

[Tom Hughes]

On 29/07/14 07:29, Norbert Wenzel wrote:

On 07/29/2014 01:43 AM, John Packer wrote:

I'm from Brazil, and recently the community started reporting similar
notes, though translated in portuguese, and with the same problems...
Besides some obviously wrong values, there are some you can't even say
where exactly they would apply to.


Are these notes only reporting speed limits or are there other traffic
related notes too? I've seen some "No x turn here" notes recently (in
German) at places far from the next crossing. I chose to close these
since there was no way of guessing what the anonymous reporter wanted to
say.


I think some of them do say other things, yes.

Still waiting for a reply from the people I emailed last night.

Tom

--
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http://compton.nu/

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Re: [OSM-talk] "Incorrect speed limit" anonymous notes - who is behind that?

[Steve Doerr]

On 29/07/2014 08:32, JB wrote:

Anyway, as for most notes concerning speed limits, if you do no have 
the beginning and the end of the limit, at least in France, the 
information is quite useless.


Are we all armchair mappers now? Surely the note should prompt someone 
local to go out to the location and find out where the speed limit 
starts and ends?


--
Steve

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is active.
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Re: [OSM-talk] "Incorrect speed limit" anonymous notes - who is behind that?

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

> Am 29/lug/2014 um 09:32 schrieb JB :
> 
> Anyway, as for most notes concerning speed limits, if you do no have the 
> beginning and the end of the limit, at least in France, the information is 
> quite useless.


+1, at best this can be a hint to resurvey (if positional accuracy is 
sufficient to know where the problem is), generally will be almost useless (if 
the note gets created automatically and not positioned manually)

cheers,
Martin
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Re: [OSM-talk] "Incorrect speed limit" anonymous notes - who is behind that?

[JB]

In French, I understand the message as « the speed limit in OSM is 
0/5/15/90 km, that is incorrect », but the speed limit indicated does 
not match that of any road in OSM close to the point. Do you understand 
the english messages the same way?
Anyway, as for most notes concerning speed limits, if you do no have the 
beginning and the end of the limit, at least in France, the information 
is quite useless.

JB.

Le 29/07/2014 08:29, Norbert Wenzel a écrit :

On 07/29/2014 01:43 AM, John Packer wrote:

I'm from Brazil, and recently the community started reporting similar
notes, though translated in portuguese, and with the same problems...
Besides some obviously wrong values, there are some you can't even say
where exactly they would apply to.

Are these notes only reporting speed limits or are there other traffic
related notes too? I've seen some "No x turn here" notes recently (in
German) at places far from the next crossing. I chose to close these
since there was no way of guessing what the anonymous reporter wanted to
say.

So your point about the note placement made me think if these notes also
were reports from some third party software, possibly the same.

Norbert


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Re: [OSM-talk] "Incorrect speed limit" anonymous notes - who is behind that?

[Norbert Wenzel]

On 07/29/2014 01:43 AM, John Packer wrote:
> I'm from Brazil, and recently the community started reporting similar
> notes, though translated in portuguese, and with the same problems...
> Besides some obviously wrong values, there are some you can't even say
> where exactly they would apply to.

Are these notes only reporting speed limits or are there other traffic
related notes too? I've seen some "No x turn here" notes recently (in
German) at places far from the next crossing. I chose to close these
since there was no way of guessing what the anonymous reporter wanted to
say.

So your point about the note placement made me think if these notes also
were reports from some third party software, possibly the same.

Norbert


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Re: [OSM-talk] "Incorrect speed limit" anonymous notes - who is behind that?

[John Packer]

I'm from Brazil, and recently the community started reporting similar
notes, though translated in portuguese, and with the same problems...
Besides some obviously wrong values, there are some you can't even say
where exactly they would apply to.
There's been at least some 60 of those in portuguese so far.
I saw a similar note in Spanish too, so they are probably even more
widespread...

Besides the report of speed limit, I also saw some "Can't turn left."
note[1], which are likely to be from the same origin.

Agree with all Michał said.

[1]: http://www.openstreetmap.org/note/205281
 Em 28/07/2014 20:16, "Toby Murray"  escreveu:

> Interesting. The coverage of these notes is almost global. I don't see any
> in South America or Australia but otherwise there are some on each
> continent.
>
> I also see some reported speed limits in the U.S. in km/h which is most
> likely not correct.
>
> Once upon a time I suggested adding a kind of created_by type of field to
> notes that would eventually be required for 3rd party applications posting
> anonymous notes. But it seems no code has magically appeared to do this yet.
>
> Toby
>
>
> On Mon, Jul 28, 2014 at 5:38 PM, Michał Brzozowski 
> wrote:
>
>> Recently I saw anonymous notes being added of the form "Incorrect
>> speed limit. Reported speed limit is X km/h".
>> Here's a search query:
>>
>> http://api.openstreetmap.org/api/0.6/notes/search?q=Incorrect%20speed%20limit.%20Reported%20speed%20limit%20is
>>
>> As they all are generated from a template, I guess this is some app
>> which allows users to report back errors.
>> But it remains a mystery: Who is author of this software?
>>
>> As you can see, there are quite a lot of 0 km/h notes, so I am not
>> particularly enthusiastic about validity of the data.
>>
>> I would rather suggest that the author either made an account for
>> their app or otherwise stated in the body of a note. And for goodness'
>> sake, validate what your users input against obvious errors ;-)
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Michał
>>
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>>
>
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] "Incorrect speed limit" anonymous notes - who is behind that?

[Michał Brzozowski]

They also appear in French: "Limitation de vitesse inappropriée. La
limitation de vitesse signalée est X km/h"
And in Portugese: "Limite de velocidade incorreto. O limite de
velocidade informado é X km/h"
also Finnish, Czech, Swedish, Italian...

Oh, you can just view all of them by searching "km/h" :)
http://api.openstreetmap.org/api/0.6/notes/search?q=km/h

They seem to translate these into the country's language and fall back
to English in case of unavailable translation.

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Re: [OSM-talk] "Incorrect speed limit" anonymous notes - who is behind that?

[Toby Murray]

Interesting. The coverage of these notes is almost global. I don't see any
in South America or Australia but otherwise there are some on each
continent.

I also see some reported speed limits in the U.S. in km/h which is most
likely not correct.

Once upon a time I suggested adding a kind of created_by type of field to
notes that would eventually be required for 3rd party applications posting
anonymous notes. But it seems no code has magically appeared to do this yet.

Toby


On Mon, Jul 28, 2014 at 5:38 PM, Michał Brzozowski 
wrote:

> Recently I saw anonymous notes being added of the form "Incorrect
> speed limit. Reported speed limit is X km/h".
> Here's a search query:
>
> http://api.openstreetmap.org/api/0.6/notes/search?q=Incorrect%20speed%20limit.%20Reported%20speed%20limit%20is
>
> As they all are generated from a template, I guess this is some app
> which allows users to report back errors.
> But it remains a mystery: Who is author of this software?
>
> As you can see, there are quite a lot of 0 km/h notes, so I am not
> particularly enthusiastic about validity of the data.
>
> I would rather suggest that the author either made an account for
> their app or otherwise stated in the body of a note. And for goodness'
> sake, validate what your users input against obvious errors ;-)
>
> Cheers,
> Michał
>
> ___
> talk mailing list
> talk@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] "Incorrect speed limit" anonymous notes - who is behind that?

[Tom Hughes]

On 28/07/14 23:38, Michał Brzozowski wrote:


Recently I saw anonymous notes being added of the form "Incorrect
speed limit. Reported speed limit is X km/h".
Here's a search query:
http://api.openstreetmap.org/api/0.6/notes/search?q=Incorrect%20speed%20limit.%20Reported%20speed%20limit%20is

As they all are generated from a template, I guess this is some app
which allows users to report back errors.
But it remains a mystery: Who is author of this software?

As you can see, there are quite a lot of 0 km/h notes, so I am not
particularly enthusiastic about validity of the data.

I would rather suggest that the author either made an account for
their app or otherwise stated in the body of a note. And for goodness'
sake, validate what your users input against obvious errors ;-)


Those notes do all appear to be coming from one source - I have sent 
them an email to try and make contact with somebody so we can discuss 
how they can improve things.


Tom

--
Tom Hughes (t...@compton.nu)
http://compton.nu/

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[OSM-talk] "Incorrect speed limit" anonymous notes - who is behind that?

[Michał Brzozowski]

Recently I saw anonymous notes being added of the form "Incorrect
speed limit. Reported speed limit is X km/h".
Here's a search query:
http://api.openstreetmap.org/api/0.6/notes/search?q=Incorrect%20speed%20limit.%20Reported%20speed%20limit%20is

As they all are generated from a template, I guess this is some app
which allows users to report back errors.
But it remains a mystery: Who is author of this software?

As you can see, there are quite a lot of 0 km/h notes, so I am not
particularly enthusiastic about validity of the data.

I would rather suggest that the author either made an account for
their app or otherwise stated in the body of a note. And for goodness'
sake, validate what your users input against obvious errors ;-)

Cheers,
Michał

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