Re: [OSM-talk] tagging and rendering highways in the USA and elsewhere

[Alex Mauer]

Jeffrey Martin wrote:

> I suppose we could switch to different tag values like 2ldr for "two 
> lane divided road with ramps". Do we need a whole new tag? The wrll tag 
> for "what road looks like"? Will changing
> the tagging scheme increase data accuracy enough to make up for the hassle?

You might want to look at my proposal at 
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/Proposed_features/Highway_administrative_and_physical_descriptions

-Alex Mauer "hawke"


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Re: [OSM-talk] tagging and rendering highways in the USA and elsewhere

[Jeffrey Martin]

On Mon, Apr 21, 2008 at 2:05 AM, Peter Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:

>  Thanks for that Jeffrey. I agree entirely that rendering should follow
> tagging and not lead tagging,
>


> Am I right in thinking that the synthesis of this discussion is being
> added to this wiki page?
>
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/Highway_tag_usage
>
I have made no changes to the wiki recently. A few months ago I changed the
page
to reflect what I found in the discussion. There is also this page:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/Highway

I suppose we could switch to different tag values like 2ldr for "two lane
divided road with ramps". Do we need a whole new tag? The wrll tag for "what
road looks like"? Will changing
the tagging scheme increase data accuracy enough to make up for the hassle?

-- 
http://bowlad.com
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Re: [OSM-talk] tagging and rendering highways in the USA and elsewhere

[Peter Miller]

Thanks for that Jeffrey. I agree entirely that rendering should follow
tagging and not lead tagging, my main concern at the moment is that UK
rendering (blue for motorway and orange for secondary) is encouraging
inappropriate tagging. I think we agree that one should clarify first how to
tag what is on the ground and then decide on how to render the data. Based
in the UK I am reliant on tiger and aerial photography to inform my choice
of tagging Am I right in thinking that the synthesis of this discussion is
being added to this wiki page?

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/Highway_tag_usage

 

Fyi I have been doing a lot of work on the San Francisco bay area (Golden
Gate down to Foster City) over the past week or so and I am having been
working on the road classes tags today, hence my question. I have been:

 

Lifting the road class of roads tagged as secondary but which have flyovers
and divided carriageways etc and making them trunk (but motorway might be
more appropriate)

 

Lifting 'braded roads' with two carriageways in tiger data from residential
to primary.

 

Lifting some other roads from residential to secondary where they are
clearly significant feeder roads for an area.

 

Rationalising link roads to get them to match the class of road they are
feeding (there were lots of motorway_link roads feeding secondary for
example).

 

My first pass looked pretty ugly. I am currently waiting for osmarender to
render my latest adjustment to the primary network in the area and would
then be grateful for feedback as to whether I am on the right lines (but do
wait until tomorrow when the rendering should have finished).

 

I have also being doing a lot of 'de-duplicating' of roads pre/post tiger.
In general I have kept pre-tiger freeways and kept tiger for other roads. I
have also given a pass over most of the freeway network in the bay area in
the past week and have added the second carriageways where required and
cleaned up the geometry and sorted out some of the junctions.

 

 

 

 

Regards,

 

 

 

 

Peter

 

 

 

  _  

From: Jeffrey Martin [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: 20 April 2008 15:42
To: Peter Miller
Cc: Talk Openstreetmap; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] tagging and rendering highways in the USA and
elsewhere

 

 

On Sat, Apr 19, 2008 at 1:15 AM, Peter Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:

 

Major non-interstate highways that have traffic light free multi-level
junctions etc should be tagged as 'trunk' and possibly also be rendered
orange but with less grand route numbers to differentiate them from
interstate routes.

This statement really bothers me. First, we must make every effort to keep
the data separate
from the rendering.

Consider a section of Interstate Highway that structurally resembles a UK
motorway. This section of road may also be part of a state highway. It's not
uncommon for a section of
road to have both a state highway sign and an Interstate sign. In some very
barren
areas an Interstate may have standard intersections without ramps. As in
your example above a road that is not an Interstate may have multiple levels
and ramps.

Whatever scheme we agree on must keep the road's structure separate from
legal classifications. I checked and the wiki still says that the highway
tag should be
used to indicate what the road looks like. My reasoning can be found on the
talk page.

Whether a road is an Interstate, state highway, county road, etc. should be
indicated in another data field.

I haven't been following all the conversations lately, but I remember an
Australian
was tagging a gravel road as a motorway because it was the main road between
two rural cities and he wanted it prominently rendered. Perhaps in this case
some
kind of importance tag should be used.

I think free tagging is great, but we should not allow multiple definitions
for each tag.
A tag should not indicate both it's legal status and it's structure,
although one might
imply the other under certain circumstances.

-- 
http://bowlad.com 

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Re: [OSM-talk] tagging and rendering highways in the USA and elsewhere

[Alex L. Mauer]

Jeffrey Martin wrote:
> I think free tagging is great, but we should not allow multiple
> definitions for each tag.
> A tag should not indicate both it's legal status and it's structure,
> although one might
> imply the other under certain circumstances.

Well, that's an unfortunate fact of the 'highway' tag.  It was written
to indicate both legal status and physical structure.

-Alex Mauer "hawke"

-- 
Bad - You get pulled over for doing 90 in a school zone and you're drunk
off your ass again at three in the afternoon.
Worse - The cop is drunk too, and he's a mean drunk.
FUCK! - A mean drunk that's actually a swarm of semi-sentient
flesh-eating beetles.
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Re: [OSM-talk] tagging and rendering highways in the USA and elsewhere

[Jeffrey Martin]

On Sat, Apr 19, 2008 at 1:15 AM, Peter Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:

>
> Major non-interstate highways that have traffic light free multi-level
> junctions etc should be tagged as 'trunk' and possibly also be rendered
> orange but with less grand route numbers to differentiate them from
> interstate routes.
>
This statement really bothers me. First, we must make every effort to keep
the data separate
from the rendering.

Consider a section of Interstate Highway that structurally resembles a UK
motorway. This section of road may also be part of a state highway. It's not
uncommon for a section of
road to have both a state highway sign and an Interstate sign. In some very
barren
areas an Interstate may have standard intersections without ramps. As in
your example above a road that is not an Interstate may have multiple levels
and ramps.

Whatever scheme we agree on must keep the road's structure separate from
legal classifications. I checked and the wiki still says that the highway
tag should be
used to indicate what the road looks like. My reasoning can be found on the
talk page.

Whether a road is an Interstate, state highway, county road, etc. should be
indicated in another data field.

I haven't been following all the conversations lately, but I remember an
Australian
was tagging a gravel road as a motorway because it was the main road between
two rural cities and he wanted it prominently rendered. Perhaps in this case
some
kind of importance tag should be used.

I think free tagging is great, but we should not allow multiple definitions
for each tag.
A tag should not indicate both it's legal status and it's structure,
although one might
imply the other under certain circumstances.

-- 
http://bowlad.com
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Re: [OSM-talk] tagging and rendering highways in the USA and elsewhere

[Dermot McNally]

On 19/04/2008, Jon Burgess <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>  - not trying to do anything to account for ways which crossed over a
>  border. PostGIS can generate clipped geometries while doing the
>  processing but I did not try this [1].

That's not the cause anyway - the motorway ends, with a break in ways,
about 10km before the crossing.

>  - or errors in the the boundary (from vmap0).

I'd bet good money on this one. I'm still trying to find a good source
for the border data.

Dermot

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Re: [OSM-talk] tagging and rendering highways in the USA and elsewhere

[Jon Burgess]

On Sat, 2008-04-19 at 19:57 +0100, Dermot McNally wrote:
> On 18/04/2008, Jon Burgess <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> > >From a purely functional perspective this approach seems to work. The
> >  screenshot below shows what happens if you ask for the motorways in
> >  Ireland to be rendered in purple:
> >
> >  http://tile.openstreetmap.org/direct/country-mways-example.png
> >
> >  The motorways in England and Northern Ireland still render in the
> >  default blue.
> 
> So does the most northerly section of the M1 motorway in the Republic
> of Ireland, a good 20km away from where that road actually crosses the
> border. So while that's a nifty illustration, it shows that the
> boundary information will need to get a lot better before we can rely
> on it in all cases.
> 
> Dermot

That could have been due to a couple of things:-
- not using the correct projection on the boundary polygons I imported
- not trying to do anything to account for ways which crossed over a
border. PostGIS can generate clipped geometries while doing the
processing but I did not try this [1].
- or errors in the the boundary (from vmap0).

Thanks for pointing it out anyway.

Jon



[1] http://postgis.refractions.net/docs/ch04.html#id2677901




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Re: [OSM-talk] tagging and rendering highways in the USA and elsewhere

[Dermot McNally]

On 18/04/2008, Jon Burgess <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> >From a purely functional perspective this approach seems to work. The
>  screenshot below shows what happens if you ask for the motorways in
>  Ireland to be rendered in purple:
>
>  http://tile.openstreetmap.org/direct/country-mways-example.png
>
>  The motorways in England and Northern Ireland still render in the
>  default blue.

So does the most northerly section of the M1 motorway in the Republic
of Ireland, a good 20km away from where that road actually crosses the
border. So while that's a nifty illustration, it shows that the
boundary information will need to get a lot better before we can rely
on it in all cases.

Dermot

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Re: [OSM-talk] tagging and rendering highways in the USA and elsewhere

[Martijn van Oosterhout]

On Sat, Apr 19, 2008 at 2:43 PM, Robert (Jamie) Munro <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>  Hopefully we won't need a separate tileserver for each rendering style -
>  1 server should be able to render more than one style at a time at
>  different URLs. I am led to believe that mod_tile cannot currently
>  render more than one style of tiles on a single apache installation - I
>  don't know what tilecache is capable of. It would be more efficient to
>  spread the load across multiple servers by odd/even tile numbers, or
>  possibly by odd/even zoom levels.

Tilecache can render as many layers as you want. I'm sure mod_til
could do the same with the appropriate hacking. The program is
diskspace. We're already calculating hundreds of GB for the current
map, doing that per country is going to be crazy, unless we are
donated a petabyte storage array.

Odd/even tiles is a waste, given metatiling renders an area larger
than the one you're viewing anyway. Doing it per zoom level might
work...

>  It is likely that a USA tileserver will be busy at different times from
>  a UK or Japan tile server, and it would be useful if they could share
>  the rendering loads between each at their own peak times.

AIUI we're limited by I/O not CPU, so we need to look at advanced
storage solutions. (And the appropriate performance improvements in
mapnik).

Have a nice day,
-- 
Martijn van Oosterhout <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> http://svana.org/kleptog/

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Re: [OSM-talk] tagging and rendering highways in the USA and elsewhere

[Robert (Jamie) Munro]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Jo wrote:
| Robert (Jamie) Munro schreef:
|>
|> When I look at the USA, I want interstates to be blue. When an American
|> looks at the UK, they want to see motorways to be a colour other than
|> blue, because then they will understand instinctively what kind of road
|> it is. This should be one of the major benefits of OSM over other maps.
|>
|> When someone from a USA IP address opens the map, they should see the
|> USA style tiles by default, but have the UK tiles on the layer switcher.
|>
| That would indeed make a lot of sense. Otherwise you will get odd
| results of roads changing style near the borders. So a separate tile
| server for the US is called for. Probably one for France as well with
| styles that look like Michelin's maps and maybe one for Germany (Are
| Germans used to Kummerley und Frey?)

Hopefully we won't need a separate tileserver for each rendering style -
1 server should be able to render more than one style at a time at
different URLs. I am led to believe that mod_tile cannot currently
render more than one style of tiles on a single apache installation - I
don't know what tilecache is capable of. It would be more efficient to
spread the load across multiple servers by odd/even tile numbers, or
possibly by odd/even zoom levels.

It is likely that a USA tileserver will be busy at different times from
a UK or Japan tile server, and it would be useful if they could share
the rendering loads between each at their own peak times.

Robert (Jamie) Munro
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Re: [OSM-talk] tagging and rendering highways in the USA and elsewhere

[Jo]

Robert (Jamie) Munro schreef:
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> Hash: SHA1
>
> Tom Hughes wrote:
> | In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> | Peter Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> |> If we can agree on the rendering rules and get both Mapnik and osmarender
> |> sorted out for the USA then people will be incentivised to tag
> |> appropriately. The moto 'render and they will come' probably applies
> here as
> |> elsewhere.
> |
> | Agreeing on the rules or colour schemes is not the problem.
> |
> | The problem is that we do not have the technology to render different
> | countries in different ways. I don't believe we even know of an efficient
> | way to do it, so we don't even know what the technology would look like
> | should somebody want to write it.
>
> I don't think this is a problem we shuold be trying to solve. We should
> be solving the problem of the tile server only producing 1 rendering.
>
> When I look at the USA, I want interstates to be blue. When an American
> looks at the UK, they want to see motorways to be a colour other than
> blue, because then they will understand instinctively what kind of road
> it is. This should be one of the major benefits of OSM over other maps.
>
> When someone from a USA IP address opens the map, they should see the
> USA style tiles by default, but have the UK tiles on the layer switcher.
>   
That would indeed make a lot of sense. Otherwise you will get odd 
results of roads changing style near the borders. So a separate tile 
server for the US is called for. Probably one for France as well with 
styles that look like Michelin's maps and maybe one for Germany (Are 
Germans used to Kummerley und Frey?)

Polyglot

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Re: [OSM-talk] tagging and rendering highways in the USA and elsewhere

[Karl Newman]

On Fri, Apr 18, 2008 at 11:14 AM, Tom Hughes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>   "Adam Schreiber" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > On Fri, Apr 18, 2008 at 12:33 PM, Tom Hughes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > >  The problem is that we do not have the technology to render different
> > >  countries in different ways. I don't believe we even know of an
> efficient
> > >  way to do it, so we don't even know what the technology would look
> like
> > >  should somebody want to write it.
> >
> > Shouldn't this be as easy as adding a tag indicating country and
> > altering the stylesheet to say highway=motorway country=us =>
> > color=yellow, highway=motorway country=uk => color=blue?
>
> Yes, obviously we could make everybody go round and tag the umpty
> million objects in the database with a country code. That is a pretty
> daft solution though when it should be possible to automate it.
>
> Of course as soon as we'd done that people would start asking for
> the shield shapes to change by state so we'd have to go round and
> add state tags and so on...
>
> Tom
>

Well, the ref tag should already have that information for the US anyway, so
custom shields (and colors) could be done for interstates ("I 5"), US
highways ("US 101"), state highways ("US:CA 12") but probably not county
highways ("CTH 22").

Karl
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Re: [OSM-talk] tagging and rendering highways in the USA and elsewhere

[Robert (Jamie) Munro]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Tom Hughes wrote:
| In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
| Peter Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

|> If we can agree on the rendering rules and get both Mapnik and osmarender
|> sorted out for the USA then people will be incentivised to tag
|> appropriately. The moto 'render and they will come' probably applies
here as
|> elsewhere.
|
| Agreeing on the rules or colour schemes is not the problem.
|
| The problem is that we do not have the technology to render different
| countries in different ways. I don't believe we even know of an efficient
| way to do it, so we don't even know what the technology would look like
| should somebody want to write it.

I don't think this is a problem we shuold be trying to solve. We should
be solving the problem of the tile server only producing 1 rendering.

When I look at the USA, I want interstates to be blue. When an American
looks at the UK, they want to see motorways to be a colour other than
blue, because then they will understand instinctively what kind of road
it is. This should be one of the major benefits of OSM over other maps.

When someone from a USA IP address opens the map, they should see the
USA style tiles by default, but have the UK tiles on the layer switcher.

Robert (Jamie) Munro
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Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (Darwin)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org

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=mERT
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Re: [OSM-talk] tagging and rendering highways in the USA and elsewhere

[Jon Burgess]

On Fri, 2008-04-18 at 21:57 +0100, Jon Burgess wrote:
> It should then be possible to include fips_cntry as a filter in the
> osm.xml. 

>From a purely functional perspective this approach seems to work. The
screenshot below shows what happens if you ask for the motorways in
Ireland to be rendered in purple:

http://tile.openstreetmap.org/direct/country-mways-example.png

The motorways in England and Northern Ireland still render in the
default blue.

Jon



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Re: [OSM-talk] tagging and rendering highways in the USA and elsewhere

[Frederik Ramm]

Hi,

> I really don't mind what the rendered colours are, that is for local
> discussion and there may even be multiple versions with different styles
> as far as I am concerned

Agree.

> but currently the rendering is uk-centric 

Which comes as no surprise given that the project was started in the
UK and most of the people involved in rendering live there.

> and that seems inappropriate for the USA and seems to be causing
> distortions with tagging.

This last point is a bit difficult to understand for me. Over here in
Germany, nobody would draw their motorways in blue or their trunk
roads in green, ever. But to my knowledge, no mapper as ever reacted
by tagging his motorways "secondary" only to get the "right" colour!

We have often said that providing *maps* is not our main business -
collecting data is. We only do maps to show off what we have. So I'd
agree with those who say why not let the Americans, and anyone else
who is unhappy, set up their own tile server? We'll surely do that for
Germany sooner or later, too.

Bye
Frederik

-- 
Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail [EMAIL PROTECTED]  ##  N49°00'09" E008°23'33"


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Re: [OSM-talk] tagging and rendering highways in the USA and elsewhere

[Jon Burgess]

On Fri, 2008-04-18 at 20:02 +0100, Tom Hughes wrote:
> In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>   Jon Burgess <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> > Provided we have the polygons describing the boundaries of countries,
> > states etc then we could tag the data during the osm2pgsql processing.
> > Alternatively it might be possible for Mapnik to query them at run time
> > (with the right join to a table containing boundary polygons in the data
> > source SELECT line it might even be possible today).
> 
> I was thinking about that while I was walking home earlier. The
> main question I guess is how efficient PostGIS is at answering
> the question "which of these N hundred polygons is this data
> in", or how efficiently we can code the equivalent in osm2pgsql.

This is a valid concern. Having more than one table in the select seems
to confuse mapnik (possibly because it has trouble locating the correct
geometry column for the query). 

I seem to be getting a reasonable result by adding a country column into
the DB after the import.

Importing the world_boundaries_m.shp polygon into postgis:

$ shp2pgsql -s 900913 -I -g border world_boundaries_m boundaries | psql -q gis

[ this srid is wrong, it should probably be 3365 but it is close enough
for this test and saves having to deal with transforming geometries ]

Then create a new table with data derived from the roads but with an
extra column added for the country:

gis=> create table c_roads as select
planet_osm_roads.*,boundaries.fips_cntry from planet_osm_roads,
boundaries where way && border and within(way, border);
SELECT
Time: 139292.756 ms

The above is for the UK subset of the planet and 2 minutes seems fairly
reasonable. The line table has about 6 times the data so would be much
slower. As long as the country specific rendering is restricted to
motorway/trunk/primary/secondary roads then the planet_osm_roads table
is all we need to process.

Then a quick test counting the number of roads per country:
gis=> select fips_cntry,count(*) as num from c_roads group by fips_cntry order 
by num desc;
 fips_cntry |  num
+---
 UK | 74199
 EI |  2582
 FR |   703
 IM |   199
(4 rows)

The above results seem reasonable given that this is against a UK planet
subset which includes small bits of France, Ireland etc.

It should then be possible to include fips_cntry as a filter in the
osm.xml. 

We'll have to see whether this scales to cope with the whole planet file
and polygons for every county/state/province etc.

> > My main concern would be the maintainability of the osm.xml style file.
> > It is already nearing 200kB and adding country (or state) specific
> > rendering would make it even more complex.
> 
> Indeed. I was thinking about that too, and I think it needs an
> extrat level of indirection, so the existing stylesheet stays
> largely as it is but instead of saying that a secondary road
> is rendered as #213455 or whatever some sort of code name is
> given and then that is mapped to the real colour based on the
> country.

I believe Artem proposed something similar to me once before but wanted
the feature code to be derived during the osm2pgsql import. This has the
benefit of making the rendering faster but it means that you have to
make the decision of how to categorise every feature at import time
which removes some flexibility from the osm.xml file (who knows, maybe
this is a good thing :-).

Jon



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Re: [OSM-talk] tagging and rendering highways in the USA and elsewhere

[Martijn van Oosterhout]

On Fri, Apr 18, 2008 at 9:02 PM, Tom Hughes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>  I was thinking about that while I was walking home earlier. The
>  main question I guess is how efficient PostGIS is at answering
>  the question "which of these N hundred polygons is this data
>  in", or how efficiently we can code the equivalent in osm2pgsql.

Getting osm2pgsql to do it on insert wouldn't be too hard once you
have a table of polygon. Biggest problem is going to be that it's
going to slow everything down a lot.

However, when we get so far that osm2pgsql can process just diffs,
then you only have to do it once and after that the load will be quite
managable...

>  Indeed. I was thinking about that too, and I think it needs an
>  extrat level of indirection, so the existing stylesheet stays
>  largely as it is but instead of saying that a secondary road
>  is rendered as #213455 or whatever some sort of code name is
>  given and then that is mapped to the real colour based on the
>  country.

Yeah, either mapnik needs to handle this (perhaps some kind of lookup
table indirection), or we have a script that takes the current sheet
and a list of (country code,tag,colour) and produces a much bigger
file with all the changes...

Have a nice day,
-- 
Martijn van Oosterhout <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> http://svana.org/kleptog/

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Re: [OSM-talk] tagging and rendering highways in the USA and elsewhere

[Cartinus]

On Friday 18 April 2008 21:23:47 Peter Miller wrote:
> The answer is that OSM's currently
> colour scheme seems to be that it is UK imperialism!
>
> For interest, here are some colours using by Google maps around the world

> I would suggest we have a default of orange for top-level roads everywhere
> with a local override which is blue for the UK and other countries can
> debate what they want would be idea.

I would suggest we don't change the colours on the default OSM map at all. And 
especially not to some US / Google imperialist global uniform style.

If I buy a paper map from Michelin, another one from Kümmerly+Frey and a third 
from Falkplan, then I don't expect them to all have the same style. Why would 
all electronic maps need to look the same?

There is a really simple technical solution to have a national render style 
for OSM maps. Setup your own national tile server. Like the Dutch tile server 
and IIRC there is one for Japan too. This has the additional benefit it 
spreads the load over more servers.


-- 
m.v.g.,
Cartinus

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[OSM-talk] tagging and rendering highways in the USA and elsewhere

[Peter Miller]

> Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 13:44:49 -0400
> From: "Adam Schreiber" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] tagging and rendering highways in the USA and
>   elsewhere
> To: "Tom Hughes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Cc: talk@openstreetmap.org
> Message-ID:
>   <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
> 
> On Fri, Apr 18, 2008 at 12:33 PM, Tom Hughes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >  The problem is that we do not have the technology to render different
> >  countries in different ways. I don't believe we even know of an
> efficient
> >  way to do it, so we don't even know what the technology would look like
> >  should somebody want to write it.
> 
> Shouldn't this be as easy as adding a tag indicating country and
> altering the stylesheet to say highway=motorway country=us =>
> color=yellow, highway=motorway country=uk => color=blue?
>

I think tagging each way with the country puts huge additional work onto
every mapper. We should have boundaries for countries from somewhere I
believe, and that will provide the national context for default rendering.
Possibly it is not achievable immediately, but I suggest we need to solve it
and ensure the integrity of the tagging in the meantime.

As to the question about 'who decides on the actual rendering' I am not
personally sure and it may require a bit of a benevolent dictator role in
the end, however if the core tagging is clear and consistent across OSM
then anyone is free to do their own rendering.

To answer the question about who chose blue for motorways. That is a
standard across road-maps in the UK that was possibly defined with motorways
were first build in the UK. I have a UK road atlas from 1976 that has the
motorways in blue. I guess that red was used for the most important roads
(being a bright colour) with a tone spreading from yellow through orange to
red before motorways and then when someone invented a new more important one
a new colour was needed. The answer is that OSM's currently colour scheme
seems to be that it is UK imperialism!

For interest, here are some colours using by Google maps around the world
for motorways or their local equitant.

Orange: USA, Canada, Germany, Russia, India, China
Red: Australia, France
Blue: UK


And for Yahoo

Red: USA, France, Russia
Orange: India
Blue: UK

And for Microsoft (local.live)

Green: France
Orange: UK, India, China
Yellow: Russia


So actually it is all a bit fluid and variable, but I still think a table
for colours by county makes sense unless someone wants to get agreement on a
single colour.

I would suggest we have a default of orange for top-level roads everywhere
with a local override which is blue for the UK and other countries can
debate what they want would be idea.

In the mean time please can we strongly encourage consistent tagging of
highways everywhere.

Regards,



Peter
 
> Cheers,
> 
> Adam
> 
> 



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Re: [OSM-talk] tagging and rendering highways in the USA and elsewhere

[Tom Hughes]

In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  Jon Burgess <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Provided we have the polygons describing the boundaries of countries,
> states etc then we could tag the data during the osm2pgsql processing.
> Alternatively it might be possible for Mapnik to query them at run time
> (with the right join to a table containing boundary polygons in the data
> source SELECT line it might even be possible today).

I was thinking about that while I was walking home earlier. The
main question I guess is how efficient PostGIS is at answering
the question "which of these N hundred polygons is this data
in", or how efficiently we can code the equivalent in osm2pgsql.

> My main concern would be the maintainability of the osm.xml style file.
> It is already nearing 200kB and adding country (or state) specific
> rendering would make it even more complex.

Indeed. I was thinking about that too, and I think it needs an
extrat level of indirection, so the existing stylesheet stays
largely as it is but instead of saying that a secondary road
is rendered as #213455 or whatever some sort of code name is
given and then that is mapped to the real colour based on the
country.

Tom

-- 
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http://www.compton.nu/

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Re: [OSM-talk] tagging and rendering highways in the USA and elsewhere

[Matt Williams]

On Friday 18 April 2008 19:25:37 Peter Miller wrote:
> I hope I didn't come across as aggressive, but I did want to point out some
> really weird inconsistencies that do need to be resolved and wanted to
> encourage debate. In the UK a secondary roads is a minor road, in San
> Francisco this
> 
> junction (a multilevel road with multiple flyovers) is classed as secondary
> whereas this
>   one
> (an urban road with traffic signal controlled junctions) is classed as
> primary.
>
>
>
> I suspect that fact reason that the first is classed as secondary is
> because the mapper wanted an orange road and that it should really be a
> 'trunk' road.
>
>
>
> I really don't mind what the rendered colours are, that is for local
> discussion and there may even be multiple versions with different styles as
> far as I am concernedm, but currently the rendering is uk-centric and that
> seems inappropriate for the USA and seems to be causing distortions with
> tagging.

I think most people agree with that, but as said, there's a technological 
barrier to overcome.

> I do think that the hierarchy of road classes needs to be respected across
> OSM (where a trunk road is more important than primary road than secondary
> road etc) allowing a routing engine to direct drivers worldwide onto the
> main routes (and also possibly keep pedestrians and cyclists off them). I
> do think that the '_link' element needs to be used to help sat-nav systems
> give meaningful instructions and not give out information about turning
> onto link roads when it should say 'turn onto Highway 101'. I do think the
> description of the highway road classes in Map Features needs to be
> internationalised to allow people in new countries to chose the right
> mapping to their own infrastructure and naming and colour conventions.

It already is. See 
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/Key:highway#International_equivalence 
for the current definitions.

Regards,
Matt Williams

> Personally I hope that San Francisco will prove a useful test case where
> many of the outstanding internationalisation issues can be bottomed out
> before there before large scale tagging across many other parts of the
> country.
>
>
>
> Currently everything except interstate is tagged as 'residential'. If it
> was agreed that state highways should be 'trunk' roads then would it be
> sensible to design a 'bot' to scan un-touched tiger data for road names
> including the word 'state' but not the word 'interstate' and automatically
> update the tags from 'highway=residential' to 'highway=trunk' (or whatever
> is agreed).


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Re: [OSM-talk] tagging and rendering highways in the USA and elsewhere

[Jon Burgess]

On Fri, 2008-04-18 at 19:14 +0100, Tom Hughes wrote:
> In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>   "Adam Schreiber" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> > On Fri, Apr 18, 2008 at 12:33 PM, Tom Hughes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > >  The problem is that we do not have the technology to render different
> > >  countries in different ways. I don't believe we even know of an efficient
> > >  way to do it, so we don't even know what the technology would look like
> > >  should somebody want to write it.
> > 
> > Shouldn't this be as easy as adding a tag indicating country and
> > altering the stylesheet to say highway=motorway country=us =>
> > color=yellow, highway=motorway country=uk => color=blue?
> 
> Yes, obviously we could make everybody go round and tag the umpty
> million objects in the database with a country code. That is a pretty
> daft solution though when it should be possible to automate it.
> 
> Of course as soon as we'd done that people would start asking for
> the shield shapes to change by state so we'd have to go round and
> add state tags and so on...
> 
> Tom

Provided we have the polygons describing the boundaries of countries,
states etc then we could tag the data during the osm2pgsql processing.
Alternatively it might be possible for Mapnik to query them at run time
(with the right join to a table containing boundary polygons in the data
source SELECT line it might even be possible today).

Generating the appropriate polygons from OSM data would be another
challenge for the reader. Using an external tool like the one used for
coastline shapefile generator is probably the answer.

My main concern would be the maintainability of the osm.xml style file.
It is already nearing 200kB and adding country (or state) specific
rendering would make it even more complex.

Jon




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Re: [OSM-talk] tagging and rendering highways in the USA and elsewhere

[Matt Williams]

On Friday 18 April 2008 19:14:22 Tom Hughes wrote:
> In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
>   "Adam Schreiber" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > On Fri, Apr 18, 2008 at 12:33 PM, Tom Hughes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > >  The problem is that we do not have the technology to render different
> > >  countries in different ways. I don't believe we even know of an
> > > efficient way to do it, so we don't even know what the technology would
> > > look like should somebody want to write it.
> >
> > Shouldn't this be as easy as adding a tag indicating country and
> > altering the stylesheet to say highway=motorway country=us =>
> > color=yellow, highway=motorway country=uk => color=blue?
>
> Yes, obviously we could make everybody go round and tag the umpty
> million objects in the database with a country code. That is a pretty
> daft solution though when it should be possible to automate it.
>
> Of course as soon as we'd done that people would start asking for
> the shield shapes to change by state so we'd have to go round and
> add state tags and so on...

Well in that case it wouldn't be unfeasible to add is_in=Texas to the highways 
and in fact, "is_in=" is clearly better than "country=" anyway. But you're 
right, for country-wide location ionformation, it _should_ be possible to 
automate.

Regards,
Mat Williams


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Re: [OSM-talk] tagging and rendering highways in the USA and elsewhere

[Peter Miller]

I hope I didn't come across as aggressive, but I did want to point out some
really weird inconsistencies that do need to be resolved and wanted to
encourage debate. In the UK a secondary roads is a minor road, in San
Francisco this
<http://maps.yahoo.com/#mvt=s&lat=37.668663&lon=-122.485307&zoom=18>
junction (a multilevel road with multiple flyovers) is classed as secondary
whereas this
<http://maps.yahoo.com/#mvt=s&lat=37.428439&lon=-121.909597&zoom=19>  one
(an urban road with traffic signal controlled junctions) is classed as
primary.

 

I suspect that fact reason that the first is classed as secondary is because
the mapper wanted an orange road and that it should really be a 'trunk'
road.

 

I really don't mind what the rendered colours are, that is for local
discussion and there may even be multiple versions with different styles as
far as I am concernedm, but currently the rendering is uk-centric and that
seems inappropriate for the USA and seems to be causing distortions with
tagging.

 

I do think that the hierarchy of road classes needs to be respected across
OSM (where a trunk road is more important than primary road than secondary
road etc) allowing a routing engine to direct drivers worldwide onto the
main routes (and also possibly keep pedestrians and cyclists off them). I do
think that the '_link' element needs to be used to help sat-nav systems give
meaningful instructions and not give out information about turning onto link
roads when it should say 'turn onto Highway 101'. I do think the description
of the highway road classes in Map Features needs to be internationalised to
allow people in new countries to chose the right mapping to their own
infrastructure and naming and colour conventions.

 

Personally I hope that San Francisco will prove a useful test case where
many of the outstanding internationalisation issues can be bottomed out
before there before large scale tagging across many other parts of the
country.

 

Currently everything except interstate is tagged as 'residential'. If it was
agreed that state highways should be 'trunk' roads then would it be sensible
to design a 'bot' to scan un-touched tiger data for road names including the
word 'state' but not the word 'interstate' and automatically update the tags
from 'highway=residential' to 'highway=trunk' (or whatever is agreed).

 

 

Regards,

 

 

 

 

Peter

 

> -Original Message-----

> From: Andy Allan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

> Sent: 18 April 2008 17:38

> To: Peter Miller

> Cc: Talk Openstreetmap

> Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] tagging and rendering highways in the USA and

> elsewhere

> 

> > If we can agree on the rendering rules and get both Mapnik and

> osmarender

> > sorted out for the USA

> 

> "sorted out" - they both work fine. Even if we had a production-ready

> mechanism for country-specific rendering, it would still be a matter

> of opinion, or more accurately, a matter of cartographic style, as to

> whether we want to render the freeways in orange. After all, it's just

> a map, and conventions are only conventions, not hard and fast rules.

> 

> Not saying that we shouldn't, just that your phrasing is quite

> aggressive for what is a matter of taste. I wouldn't want someone to

> say that my choice of colours for the cycle map contours needs

> "sorting out" (even if that might well be true!).

> 

> Cheers,

> Andy

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Re: [OSM-talk] tagging and rendering highways in the USA and elsewhere

[Tom Hughes]

In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  Ben Laenen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> On Friday 18 April 2008, Tom Hughes wrote:
> > > If we can agree on the rendering rules and get both Mapnik and
> > > osmarender sorted out for the USA then people will be incentivised
> > > to tag appropriately. The moto 'render and they will come' probably
> > > applies here as elsewhere.
> >
> > Agreeing on the rules or colour schemes is not the problem.
> 
> Who decides what colours are used on the main maps? I.e. who actually
> decided that motorways should be blue, and trunks should be green, how
> railways are rendered etc.?

The people who are sufficiently interested to get involved with making
changes to the stylesheets.

> Say I'd like to see railways rendered differently in the [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> maps, where
> should I ask? Is there some "formal" process like for accepting new
> tags where general agreement is formed?

The question of what tags are used is orthogonal to how things are
rendered - not every rendering will show every object to start with.

Tom

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Re: [OSM-talk] tagging and rendering highways in the USA and elsewhere

[Tom Hughes]

In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
  "Adam Schreiber" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> On Fri, Apr 18, 2008 at 12:33 PM, Tom Hughes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >  The problem is that we do not have the technology to render different
> >  countries in different ways. I don't believe we even know of an efficient
> >  way to do it, so we don't even know what the technology would look like
> >  should somebody want to write it.
> 
> Shouldn't this be as easy as adding a tag indicating country and
> altering the stylesheet to say highway=motorway country=us =>
> color=yellow, highway=motorway country=uk => color=blue?

Yes, obviously we could make everybody go round and tag the umpty
million objects in the database with a country code. That is a pretty
daft solution though when it should be possible to automate it.

Of course as soon as we'd done that people would start asking for
the shield shapes to change by state so we'd have to go round and
add state tags and so on...

Tom

-- 
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http://www.compton.nu/

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Re: [OSM-talk] tagging and rendering highways in the USA and elsewhere

[Adam Schreiber]

On Fri, Apr 18, 2008 at 2:02 PM, Frederik Ramm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi,
>
>
>  > Shouldn't this be as easy as adding a tag indicating country and
>  > altering the stylesheet to say highway=motorway country=us =>
>  > color=yellow, highway=motorway country=uk => color=blue?
>
>  Complete with the ability to have US motorways in the UK, yay!

Authentication of the data is a different problem than rendering it.

Note that this is different than tagging for a renderer since the data
country=foo is real and not a hint.  It was also just an example, not
necessarily an actual tagging suggestion.  The example was presented
because there was an assertion that it was a technological problem.

Adam

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Re: [OSM-talk] tagging and rendering highways in the USA and elsewhere

[Frederik Ramm]

Hi,

> Who decides what colours are used on the main maps? I.e. who actually 
> decided that motorways should be blue, and trunks should be green, how 
> railways are rendered etc.?
> 
> Say I'd like to see railways rendered differently in the [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> maps, where 
> should I ask? Is there some "formal" process like for accepting new 
> tags where general agreement is formed?

The [EMAIL PROTECTED] maps are computed based on stylesheets that are in SVN, so
anybody can change them. It usually takes a while until a change is
visible everywhere because (1) not all tiles are rendered anew after a
style change, and (2) not all renderers update their styles every day.

We don't have a formal process to decide nor are there written rules.
The unwritten rules are probably roughly:

1. Don't break the styles
2. If you add something that affects only a small number of tiles,
   say because you started to tag historic battle sites and want a
   little marker there at the highest zoom level, just do it - if 
   people are unhappy, they can still change it and re-render
3. If you want to change something big, then discuss it on the [EMAIL PROTECTED]
   list. It's no use pushing through a change that would lead to
   half of the renderers simply refusing to update ;-)
4. Big changes like a different colour for highways are a bit 
   difficult since very many tiles have to be rendered, and the map
   will be a patchwork of old and new tiles for quite a while.

Bye
Frederik

-- 
Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail [EMAIL PROTECTED]  ##  N49°00'09" E008°23'33"


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Re: [OSM-talk] tagging and rendering highways in the USA and elsewhere

[Frederik Ramm]

Hi,

> Shouldn't this be as easy as adding a tag indicating country and
> altering the stylesheet to say highway=motorway country=us =>
> color=yellow, highway=motorway country=uk => color=blue?

Complete with the ability to have US motorways in the UK, yay!

Bye
Frederik

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Re: [OSM-talk] tagging and rendering highways in the USA and elsewhere

[Adam Schreiber]

On Fri, Apr 18, 2008 at 12:33 PM, Tom Hughes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>  The problem is that we do not have the technology to render different
>  countries in different ways. I don't believe we even know of an efficient
>  way to do it, so we don't even know what the technology would look like
>  should somebody want to write it.

Shouldn't this be as easy as adding a tag indicating country and
altering the stylesheet to say highway=motorway country=us =>
color=yellow, highway=motorway country=uk => color=blue?

Cheers,

Adam

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Re: [OSM-talk] tagging and rendering highways in the USA and elsewhere

[Ben Laenen]

On Friday 18 April 2008, Tom Hughes wrote:
> > If we can agree on the rendering rules and get both Mapnik and
> > osmarender sorted out for the USA then people will be incentivised
> > to tag appropriately. The moto 'render and they will come' probably
> > applies here as elsewhere.
>
> Agreeing on the rules or colour schemes is not the problem.

Who decides what colours are used on the main maps? I.e. who actually 
decided that motorways should be blue, and trunks should be green, how 
railways are rendered etc.?

Say I'd like to see railways rendered differently in the [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
maps, where 
should I ask? Is there some "formal" process like for accepting new 
tags where general agreement is formed?

Greetings
Ben

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Re: [OSM-talk] tagging and rendering highways in the USA and elsewhere

[Andy Allan]

> If we can agree on the rendering rules and get both Mapnik and osmarender
> sorted out for the USA

"sorted out" - they both work fine. Even if we had a production-ready
mechanism for country-specific rendering, it would still be a matter
of opinion, or more accurately, a matter of cartographic style, as to
whether we want to render the freeways in orange. After all, it's just
a map, and conventions are only conventions, not hard and fast rules.

Not saying that we shouldn't, just that your phrasing is quite
aggressive for what is a matter of taste. I wouldn't want someone to
say that my choice of colours for the cycle map contours needs
"sorting out" (even if that might well be true!).

Cheers,
Andy

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Re: [OSM-talk] tagging and rendering highways in the USA and elsewhere

[Tom Hughes]

In message <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Peter Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> The state roads are currently tagged on OSM variously with trunk (green)
> primary (red) and secondary (orange). Some pretty major roads a tagged with
> secondary (actually a very lowly road class in the UK below motorway, trunk
> and primary) and I suspect that this is because it renders with the correct
> colour. There is no 'secondary_link' tag for exit and entrance ramps because
> secondary roads are too minor to have such things so highways rendered as
> secondary are using 'secondary' tags for exist and entrance ramps as well.

There is no such thing as a tag that does not exist in OSM as we have
freeform tagging. In addition to which mapnik at least does render
things marked as secondary_link, so it seems to do a pretty good
impression of something that exists to me.

> If we can agree on the rendering rules and get both Mapnik and osmarender
> sorted out for the USA then people will be incentivised to tag
> appropriately. The moto 'render and they will come' probably applies here as
> elsewhere.

Agreeing on the rules or colour schemes is not the problem.

The problem is that we do not have the technology to render different
countries in different ways. I don't believe we even know of an efficient
way to do it, so we don't even know what the technology would look like
should somebody want to write it.

See the ongoing discussion about the difficulty of the problem of
determining efficiently what country something lies in for what I'm
talking about.

Tom

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[OSM-talk] tagging and rendering highways in the USA and elsewhere

[Peter Miller]

It would be good to get a resolution of the issue of highway classification
and rendering in the USA.

 

The San Francisco area is getting into a pretty

good state now, and could act as an 'exemplar' area for the USA should good
tagging practice, however the current highway tagging and rendering is a
mess and also looks wrong on the final map.

 

 I realise a bunch of you are meeting tomorrow in San Francisco for a
mapping party tomorrow so though I would chuck in my thoughts first.

 

 

 

The interstate roads are currently tagged 'motorway' and rendered blue.

 

The state roads are currently tagged on OSM variously with trunk (green)
primary (red) and secondary (orange). Some pretty major roads a tagged with
secondary (actually a very lowly road class in the UK below motorway, trunk
and primary) and I suspect that this is because it renders with the correct
colour. There is no 'secondary_link' tag for exit and entrance ramps because
secondary roads are too minor to have such things so highways rendered as
secondary are using 'secondary' tags for exist and entrance ramps as well.

 

With the current rendering people will be tempted to tag major roads as
'secondary' and get everthing into a bit of mess although others will insist
on using the hierarchy correctly and ignore the non-standard colour of the
resulting map.

 

 

Can I propose the following:

 

Interstate should be tagged 'motorway' and be rendered orange with a rather
grand rendering of the route number as on Google maps and on other US maps.

 

Major non-interstate highways that have traffic light free multi-level
junctions etc should be tagged as 'trunk' and possibly also be rendered
orange but with less grand route numbers to differentiate them from
interstate routes.

 

Major routes with multi lane traffic (2+lanes in each direction) but which
stop for traffic signals and have random side roads coming in frequently are
tagged 'primary' and should appear yellow and be reasonable wide.

 

Secondary and tertiary and then available for lower tiers and should appear
as yellow but be narrower.

 

If we can agree on the rendering rules and get both Mapnik and osmarender
sorted out for the USA then people will be incentivised to tag
appropriately. The moto 'render and they will come' probably applies here as
elsewhere.

 

Can I suggest that you do some block changes to the highways tags over the
weekend to get the tags right and (of course the colours will then be wrong)
ie top roads motorway/motorway_link=blue, next level trunk/trunk_link=green,
next level primary/primary_link=red and finally secondary=orange and
tertiary=yellow and then ensure that the rendering rules get sorted for
osmarender and mapnik .

 

Btw, I am not on the talk-us list. I will look and he USA list on the web
from time to time but so do include me in any relevant responses. I am
copying this to the main list because I suspect the issue also applies to
other countries around the world.

 

 

 

Regards,

 

 

 

Peter Miller

 

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