Re: Gnome 3.10: Network UI missing from new system status area
On Oct 9, 2013, at 5:23 PM, John Morris wrote: > On Wed, 2013-10-09 at 11:46 +, Andre Robatino wrote: >> John Morris beau.org> writes: >>> Screen space is valuable so removing an icon that is 'always' there and >>> isn't typically displaying useful information is sensible enough. >> >> Possibly a dumb question, but doesn't space have to always be available for >> the icon, whether it's displayed always or just some of the time? I mean, if >> there was no available space to display a wired connection icon, and the >> connection goes down, it would be impossible to show the "disconnected" icon >> either. > > Nah, there are a lot of notifications icons that COULD appear, most > don't unless they have something interesting to say. At least with lives, I'm intermittently getting and not getting a wired connection. I only get an icon on the menu bar in the latter case. Chris Murphy -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: Gnome 3.10: Network UI missing from new system status area
On Wed, 2013-10-09 at 11:46 +, Andre Robatino wrote: > John Morris beau.org> writes: > > Screen space is valuable so removing an icon that is 'always' there and > > isn't typically displaying useful information is sensible enough. > > Possibly a dumb question, but doesn't space have to always be available for > the icon, whether it's displayed always or just some of the time? I mean, if > there was no available space to display a wired connection icon, and the > connection goes down, it would be impossible to show the "disconnected" icon > either. Nah, there are a lot of notifications icons that COULD appear, most don't unless they have something interesting to say. For example (not sure if the GNOMEs have defeatured it but it is there on 2 because it happened to me) if a drive is failing a SMART monitor tool will pop an icon into the system tray. Having it always there to say your drive is ok would not be useful. I have my power icon set to only appear if power is coming or going from the battery, same for the UPS's system tray icon. And there is always the icon that appears daily to let ya know you need to run update again. :) Really haven't though about what would happen if the system tray overflowed. Would it do like Windows and resort to a popup with more icons or like Android and slide? signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: Gnome 3.10: Network UI missing from new system status area
John Morris beau.org> writes: > Screen space is valuable so removing an icon that is 'always' there and > isn't typically displaying useful information is sensible enough. Possibly a dumb question, but doesn't space have to always be available for the icon, whether it's displayed always or just some of the time? I mean, if there was no available space to display a wired connection icon, and the connection goes down, it would be impossible to show the "disconnected" icon either. This looks to me like it's being done just as part of the whole GNOME philosophy of minimizing the used screen space, even if it's already 90% unused, and it requires additional logic to identify when a GUI item does or doesn't need to be displayed. (For example, display "Log out" if and only if there is more than one user, OR more than one installed desktop, OR the dconf setting says to always display it.) -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: Gnome 3.10: Network UI missing from new system status area
> Yet several times after F20 alpha live installs I've had to go manually turn > on the wired network, and the "Connect Automatically" option was unchecked. > I suppose it could be a transient or imaginary problem. If I get something > consistent I'll file a bug against network manager. I haven't seen it. If you find out when this happens, please do notify us (it might even be a blocker, with the new GNOME top bar style). Thanks! -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: Gnome 3.10: Network UI missing from new system status area
On Mon, 2013-10-07 at 13:41 -0600, Chris Murphy wrote: > On Oct 7, 2013, at 1:19 PM, Adam Williamson wrote: > > > On Fri, 2013-10-04 at 09:04 -0600, Chris Murphy wrote: > > > >> A wired state icon in the menu bar is not needed if it's available upon > >> making a physical connection, by default, for all users. For Gnome 3.8, I > >> regularly encountered no network connection upon successful install, > >> despite a working wire in the singular ethernet port, because by default > >> "Connect Automatically" is not enabled for wired connections. > >> > >> So if I have to give the system A Captain Obvious Clue, yes I really do > >> need an otherwise useless wired network state icon in the menubar. But > >> better would be no wired network icon, but any user by default has access > >> to the network connection automatically if the wired is in the port. (As a > >> Mac user the idea that a network isn't connected to automatically by > >> default upon physical access to both computer and wire is not merely > >> surprising, it is considered broken.) > > > > Doesn't match my experience at all. We've brought up wired network > > connections by defaults for several releases, now, though it used to > > default to off in non-network installs back around F16 or something. > > Yet several times after F20 alpha live installs I've had to go manually turn > on the wired network, and the "Connect Automatically" option was unchecked. I > suppose it could be a transient or imaginary problem. If I get something > consistent I'll file a bug against network manager. Well, I haven't run many F20 installs, since I've been traveling. If it's really happening, it's definitely not intentional, AFAIK. -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Twitter: AdamW_Fedora | XMPP: adamw AT happyassassin DOT net http://www.happyassassin.net -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: Gnome 3.10: Network UI missing from new system status area
On Oct 7, 2013, at 1:19 PM, Adam Williamson wrote: > On Fri, 2013-10-04 at 09:04 -0600, Chris Murphy wrote: > >> A wired state icon in the menu bar is not needed if it's available upon >> making a physical connection, by default, for all users. For Gnome 3.8, I >> regularly encountered no network connection upon successful install, despite >> a working wire in the singular ethernet port, because by default "Connect >> Automatically" is not enabled for wired connections. >> >> So if I have to give the system A Captain Obvious Clue, yes I really do need >> an otherwise useless wired network state icon in the menubar. But better >> would be no wired network icon, but any user by default has access to the >> network connection automatically if the wired is in the port. (As a Mac user >> the idea that a network isn't connected to automatically by default upon >> physical access to both computer and wire is not merely surprising, it is >> considered broken.) > > Doesn't match my experience at all. We've brought up wired network > connections by defaults for several releases, now, though it used to > default to off in non-network installs back around F16 or something. Yet several times after F20 alpha live installs I've had to go manually turn on the wired network, and the "Connect Automatically" option was unchecked. I suppose it could be a transient or imaginary problem. If I get something consistent I'll file a bug against network manager. Chris Murphy -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: Gnome 3.10: Network UI missing from new system status area
On Fri, 2013-10-04 at 09:04 -0600, Chris Murphy wrote: > A wired state icon in the menu bar is not needed if it's available upon > making a physical connection, by default, for all users. For Gnome 3.8, I > regularly encountered no network connection upon successful install, despite > a working wire in the singular ethernet port, because by default "Connect > Automatically" is not enabled for wired connections. > > So if I have to give the system A Captain Obvious Clue, yes I really do need > an otherwise useless wired network state icon in the menubar. But better > would be no wired network icon, but any user by default has access to the > network connection automatically if the wired is in the port. (As a Mac user > the idea that a network isn't connected to automatically by default upon > physical access to both computer and wire is not merely surprising, it is > considered broken.) Doesn't match my experience at all. We've brought up wired network connections by defaults for several releases, now, though it used to default to off in non-network installs back around F16 or something. -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Twitter: AdamW_Fedora | XMPP: adamw AT happyassassin DOT net http://www.happyassassin.net -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: Gnome 3.10: Network UI missing from new system status area
> https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=708966 is the upstream bug > ... if you have anything useful (i.e no flamebait) to add ad it there. Provided. Thanks. -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: Gnome 3.10: Network UI missing from new system status area
On Oct 3, 2013, at 11:48 PM, John Morris wrote: > On Thu, 2013-10-03 at 20:59 +0200, drago01 wrote: >> You should get an icon indicating failure just no success one. Which >> is even very unixy ;) > > Well GNU is Not Unix and these days Fedora isn't even following that > star. How does Apple do it? OS X does not have a wired network icon for the persistent menu bar at all. Not by default or as an option. User needs to go to the Network panel to see the state which is one of three: not connected (red), connected but no IP (yellow), connect with IP (green). OS X does have a wireless network icon on the menu bar. It can optionally be removed. It's completely gray when there is no connection, otherwise it indicates signal strength. An X is never used to indicate state. If the signal weakens or vanishes, the menu bar icon simply goes gray. No dialog, no text. A dialog appears with a connection failure only when actively connecting to a discrete access point and the connection attempt fails (wrong login or password, or error establishing connection). > > Screen space is valuable so removing an icon that is 'always' there and > isn't typically displaying useful information is sensible enough. But > as the bug commenters noted, some people DO move between wired > connections and such so an option to put it back really needs a bit of > thought. A wired state icon in the menu bar is not needed if it's available upon making a physical connection, by default, for all users. For Gnome 3.8, I regularly encountered no network connection upon successful install, despite a working wire in the singular ethernet port, because by default "Connect Automatically" is not enabled for wired connections. So if I have to give the system A Captain Obvious Clue, yes I really do need an otherwise useless wired network state icon in the menubar. But better would be no wired network icon, but any user by default has access to the network connection automatically if the wired is in the port. (As a Mac user the idea that a network isn't connected to automatically by default upon physical access to both computer and wire is not merely surprising, it is considered broken.) Chris Murphy -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: Gnome 3.10: Network UI missing from new system status area
On 04.10.2013 16:38, Matthew Miller wrote: On Fri, Oct 04, 2013 at 07:54:54AM +0200, moshe nahmias wrote: I think that it must be possible to make the icon visible as an option. I This seems like a very useful place for a Gnome Shell Extension. Or rather a gsettings option accessible via tweak tool. Having extensions for every small detail is a bit excessive IMO. -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: Gnome 3.10: Network UI missing from new system status area
On Fri, Oct 04, 2013 at 07:54:54AM +0200, moshe nahmias wrote: > I think that it must be possible to make the icon visible as an option. I This seems like a very useful place for a Gnome Shell Extension. -- Matthew Miller ☁☁☁ Fedora Cloud Architect ☁☁☁ -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: Gnome 3.10: Network UI missing from new system status area
On Fri, Oct 04, 2013 at 03:17:03PM +0200, drago01 wrote: > On Fri, Oct 4, 2013 at 3:05 PM, Chuck Anderson wrote: > > On Fri, Oct 04, 2013 at 01:54:17PM +0100, Adam Williamson wrote: > >> On Fri, 2013-10-04 at 07:54 +0200, moshe nahmias wrote: > >> > I think that it must be possible to make the icon visible as an > >> > option. I use a cellular modem on my laptop and the easiest way to > >> > connect with it to the net is by clicking that icon... > >> > > >> > I guess that it's possible to connect from other places, but it won't > >> > be as easy. > >> > >> GNOME 3.10 has a combined system tray. Your cellular connection will be > >> visible in it. (In other words, don't worry, it will work exactly how > >> you expect it to). The change we're discussing applies only to boring > >> plain wired ethernet connections. > > > > Use Case #1 for having the wired connection icon show at all times is > > to know when your network connection isn't working locally, as opposed > > to some remote problem. If you are connected to your LAN, the icon > > would show connected, but if your WAN/Internet connection is down, > > google.com will fail to connect. This is the first question any tech > > support person would ask the end user--does your computer show that it > > is connected (do you have a link light on the NIC)? We should be > > making this determination easier, not harder. > > > > Use Case #2 is for switching between different wired network > > configuration profiles and turning multiple NICs on or off. > > > > Why are we adding more and more functionality to NetworkManager, just > > to "take it away" from the user interface? > > https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=708966 is the upstream bug > ... if you have anything useful (i.e no flamebait) to add ad it there. Thanks, done. -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: Gnome 3.10: Network UI missing from new system status area
On Fri, Oct 4, 2013 at 3:05 PM, Chuck Anderson wrote: > On Fri, Oct 04, 2013 at 01:54:17PM +0100, Adam Williamson wrote: >> On Fri, 2013-10-04 at 07:54 +0200, moshe nahmias wrote: >> > I think that it must be possible to make the icon visible as an >> > option. I use a cellular modem on my laptop and the easiest way to >> > connect with it to the net is by clicking that icon... >> > >> > I guess that it's possible to connect from other places, but it won't >> > be as easy. >> >> GNOME 3.10 has a combined system tray. Your cellular connection will be >> visible in it. (In other words, don't worry, it will work exactly how >> you expect it to). The change we're discussing applies only to boring >> plain wired ethernet connections. > > Use Case #1 for having the wired connection icon show at all times is > to know when your network connection isn't working locally, as opposed > to some remote problem. If you are connected to your LAN, the icon > would show connected, but if your WAN/Internet connection is down, > google.com will fail to connect. This is the first question any tech > support person would ask the end user--does your computer show that it > is connected (do you have a link light on the NIC)? We should be > making this determination easier, not harder. > > Use Case #2 is for switching between different wired network > configuration profiles and turning multiple NICs on or off. > > Why are we adding more and more functionality to NetworkManager, just > to "take it away" from the user interface? https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=708966 is the upstream bug ... if you have anything useful (i.e no flamebait) to add ad it there. -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: Gnome 3.10: Network UI missing from new system status area
On Fri, Oct 04, 2013 at 01:54:17PM +0100, Adam Williamson wrote: > On Fri, 2013-10-04 at 07:54 +0200, moshe nahmias wrote: > > I think that it must be possible to make the icon visible as an > > option. I use a cellular modem on my laptop and the easiest way to > > connect with it to the net is by clicking that icon... > > > > I guess that it's possible to connect from other places, but it won't > > be as easy. > > GNOME 3.10 has a combined system tray. Your cellular connection will be > visible in it. (In other words, don't worry, it will work exactly how > you expect it to). The change we're discussing applies only to boring > plain wired ethernet connections. Use Case #1 for having the wired connection icon show at all times is to know when your network connection isn't working locally, as opposed to some remote problem. If you are connected to your LAN, the icon would show connected, but if your WAN/Internet connection is down, google.com will fail to connect. This is the first question any tech support person would ask the end user--does your computer show that it is connected (do you have a link light on the NIC)? We should be making this determination easier, not harder. Use Case #2 is for switching between different wired network configuration profiles and turning multiple NICs on or off. Why are we adding more and more functionality to NetworkManager, just to "take it away" from the user interface? I guess we'll need yet another GNOME Shell extension to fix this too. -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: Gnome 3.10: Network UI missing from new system status area
On Fri, 2013-10-04 at 07:54 +0200, moshe nahmias wrote: > I think that it must be possible to make the icon visible as an > option. I use a cellular modem on my laptop and the easiest way to > connect with it to the net is by clicking that icon... > > I guess that it's possible to connect from other places, but it won't > be as easy. GNOME 3.10 has a combined system tray. Your cellular connection will be visible in it. (In other words, don't worry, it will work exactly how you expect it to). The change we're discussing applies only to boring plain wired ethernet connections. -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Twitter: AdamW_Fedora | XMPP: adamw AT happyassassin DOT net http://www.happyassassin.net -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: Gnome 3.10: Network UI missing from new system status area
On 04.10.2013 07:54, moshe nahmias wrote: I think that it must be possible to make the icon visible as an option. I use a cellular modem on my laptop and the easiest way to connect with it to the net is by clicking that icon... I guess that it's possible to connect from other places, but it won't be as easy. Also when ohne has multiple wired-networking profiles configured, you have to go to the system settings in order to switch between them. I think users would expect to be able to do that from the system status area. And my opinion: I find this to be unnecessarily confusing. The system status area should show in what state the computer/device is, and in my opinion the ethernet cable status should definitely be part of the state (unless the device has no LAN adapter). Sandro -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: Gnome 3.10: Network UI missing from new system status area
I think that it must be possible to make the icon visible as an option. I use a cellular modem on my laptop and the easiest way to connect with it to the net is by clicking that icon... I guess that it's possible to connect from other places, but it won't be as easy. On Fri, Oct 4, 2013 at 8:48 AM, John Morris wrote: > On Thu, 2013-10-03 at 20:59 +0200, drago01 wrote: > > You should get an icon indicating failure just no success one. Which > > is even very unixy ;) > > Well GNU is Not Unix and these days Fedora isn't even following that > star. How does Apple do it? > > Screen space is valuable so removing an icon that is 'always' there and > isn't typically displaying useful information is sensible enough. But > as the bug commenters noted, some people DO move between wired > connections and such so an option to put it back really needs a bit of > thought. And your idea that if anything goes wrong, loss of link, > failure to acquire a lease, etc. it should put up a no-net icon is very > good since these days no-network is the odd case, probably an error > state and almost always something the user wants to know about. Better > still of course if it has a tooltip with useful information. > > Any move to remove it with zero option should be a position that needs > defending first, not something one person imposes from on high. If for > no other reason than it is going to surprise people so some awareness > building is probably a good idea. > > -- > test mailing list > test@lists.fedoraproject.org > To unsubscribe: > https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test > -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: Gnome 3.10: Network UI missing from new system status area
On Thu, 2013-10-03 at 20:59 +0200, drago01 wrote: > You should get an icon indicating failure just no success one. Which > is even very unixy ;) Well GNU is Not Unix and these days Fedora isn't even following that star. How does Apple do it? Screen space is valuable so removing an icon that is 'always' there and isn't typically displaying useful information is sensible enough. But as the bug commenters noted, some people DO move between wired connections and such so an option to put it back really needs a bit of thought. And your idea that if anything goes wrong, loss of link, failure to acquire a lease, etc. it should put up a no-net icon is very good since these days no-network is the odd case, probably an error state and almost always something the user wants to know about. Better still of course if it has a tooltip with useful information. Any move to remove it with zero option should be a position that needs defending first, not something one person imposes from on high. If for no other reason than it is going to surprise people so some awareness building is probably a good idea. signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: Gnome 3.10: Network UI missing from new system status area
On Thu, Oct 3, 2013 at 8:31 PM, Richard Ryniker wrote: > Well, a statically configured network interface might be expected to > just work. > > With dynamic configuration, there must be successful contact with a DHCP > server, and the server must be willing to assign an IP address and > possibly provide other information (gateway, nameserver, host name) to > the client host. In this case, a visible indicator of successful network > configuration might be useful. You should get an icon indicating failure just no success one. Which is even very unixy ;) -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: Gnome 3.10: Network UI missing from new system status area
On Thu, 2013-10-03 at 14:31 -0400, Richard Ryniker wrote: > Well, a statically configured network interface might be expected to > just work. > > With dynamic configuration, there must be successful contact with a DHCP > server, and the server must be willing to assign an IP address and > possibly provide other information (gateway, nameserver, host name) to > the client host. In this case, a visible indicator of successful network > configuration might be useful. Sure. Open firefox, type 'www.google.com'. If you see Google, your network is working. If you see an error, your network is not. :P (the point is that...you pretty much know whether your network is working. it's obvious when it isn't. there isn't actually much practical use in a little icon that tells you what you already know.) -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Twitter: AdamW_Fedora | XMPP: adamw AT happyassassin DOT net http://www.happyassassin.net -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: Gnome 3.10: Network UI missing from new system status area
Well, a statically configured network interface might be expected to just work. With dynamic configuration, there must be successful contact with a DHCP server, and the server must be willing to assign an IP address and possibly provide other information (gateway, nameserver, host name) to the client host. In this case, a visible indicator of successful network configuration might be useful. -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: Gnome 3.10: Network UI missing from new system status area
On 03.10.2013 14:29, Adam Williamson wrote: On Thu, 2013-10-03 at 14:03 +0200, Sandro Mani wrote: Hi, Running Gnome 3.10 in a virtual machine, I notice that the networking UI in the system status area is missing (happens both in classic mode as well as standard mode). This happens both with a continuously updated rawhide installation as well as with the latest F20 nightly. Anyone else seeing this, maybe also on physical machines? This is intentional. See https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1005719 (not the original bug, but the later comments). I see, thanks. Sandro -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
Re: Gnome 3.10: Network UI missing from new system status area
On Thu, 2013-10-03 at 14:03 +0200, Sandro Mani wrote: > Hi, > > Running Gnome 3.10 in a virtual machine, I notice that the networking UI > in the system status area is missing (happens both in classic mode as > well as standard mode). This happens both with a continuously updated > rawhide installation as well as with the latest F20 nightly. Anyone else > seeing this, maybe also on physical machines? This is intentional. See https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1005719 (not the original bug, but the later comments). -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Twitter: AdamW_Fedora | XMPP: adamw AT happyassassin DOT net http://www.happyassassin.net -- test mailing list test@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe: https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/test
