RE: [Texascavers] A bit of history for everyone :
Good post and good idea, Charles, and I'll start posting the agenda beforehand. I thought of the same thing, after the fact. You're doing a fine job, Denise, and the minutes looks fine to me. The TC going electronic was covered well in the minutes, although, I have the feeling the bulk of the people here haven't even bothered reading them. Never a dull moment. Mark From: Charles Goldsmith [mailto:wo...@justfamily.org] Sent: Sat 1/17/2009 2:22 PM To: Denise P Cc: TexasCavers Subject: Re: [Texascavers] A bit of history for everyone : Denise, I wasn't there, so I can't compare the notes, and it sounds like a lot of the people complaining weren't either. There is no way you could have forseen this. I'll say this for the last time to all of the naysayers, stop complaining if you didn't attend the meeting! These are our elected officials, if you don't like the way they run things, change it during the next election! If you don't like the decisions they are making, show up and vote! It would probably be prudent for the officers to post an agenda from now on, preferably a few weeks in advance and here to the mailing list, so people can make plans to attend. Would this have solved our problems here? Probably not, because it sounds like the issue was the red ink, and these decisions were in response to that. Just my $0.02 worth, and take it for what it's worth, since I didn't attend either :) Charles On Sat, Jan 17, 2009 at 9:27 AM, Denise P pepabe...@hotmail.com wrote: Sorry if I did not do a good job on the meeting minutes. I am new to this, and my head was spinning with all the info going back and forth during the meeting. Perhaps I did not capture exactly what was decided about going electronic on the TC. I recorded the meeting on a recorder (hopefully), and can check it and report back. Though I'd rather not sit through that entire 1.25-hour meeting again, painful. It did not seem that important to me, so I only reported what seemed relevant. I had no idea it would be that controversial. I need to become better at foreseeing the future perhaps. There is no way I am going back and reading years of meeting minutes though. If that were a job requirement, I would resign. Regarding what was important about the finances, while I failed to state we had $7000 in the bank, I did report our ~$2000 loss for last year, and that was the big tropic of discussion, not the positive balance. So I think I did focus on the most important issue here. Maybe we can post the entire Treasurer's Report on the TSA website for full disclosure. It's easy to say what should have been done in retrospect, but a lot harder to get everything exactly right at the time it was occurring. People just love to find something to gripe about, and it gets annoying. We are trying to do our best but will always fail if perfection is expected. Give us officers a flipping break, please. Or at least me as I cannot really speak for the rest. -Denise To: wo...@justfamily.org; bmixon...@austin.rr.com Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 22:58:05 -0500 From: jerryat...@aol.com CC: texascavers@texascavers.com Subject: Re: [Texascavers] A bit of history for everyone : Interesting discussion. Probably not to most readers, but educational nonetheless. The number of postings and the rancor of the discussion lead to one very important point: the membership considers this a rather important issue. While it's true that only a few vocal posters have lead this discussion, I believe that a lot of members have opinions one way or the other. The issue of electronic vs hardcopy has been brought up several times before in the history of the TSA with decidedly heated results. It should have been no surprise to the TSA officers that it would be somewhat controversial to announce that the TxCvr was going electronic and not explain the details. I read the minutes of the last meeting and they didn't even include the discussion of the issue. The minutes read: The TSA Needs Money - Alman suggested raising dues $5 per person and making it optional to receive the TEXAS CAVER only electronically (would save $5 per issue). Joe Ranzau brought up that it is a bad time to raise dues with the current economy. We have $7000 in the bank to cover another year in the red. Someone suggested printing less extra copies of the TEXAS CAVER to save costs. Alman says perhaps as an incentive the electronic copy could be longer than the hardcopy. Alman says in the next TEXAS CAVER he will propose the idea of offering it electronically instead of hardcopy for those interested, and see what the responses are. Alman will check with Butch on how it could be put on the web site. It was agreed we do not need a vote on this. As I read that, the issue was to be proposed and the responses tabulated. It seems we've come a bit further in the last 5 days than a simple
Re: [Texascavers] A bit of history for everyone :
On Mon, 19 Jan 2009 07:20:24 -0600 mark.al...@l-3com.com wrote: The TC going electronic was covered well in the minutes, The TC going eletcronic was suggested at last year's (Jan. 2008) winter meeting (at CBSP) but was never acted on until it was brought up again this year. -- Lyndon Tiu - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
Re: [Texascavers] A bit of history for everyone :
It was suggested as far back as 2003. Sent from my iPhone On Jan 19, 2009, at 8:18 AM, Lyndon Tiu l...@alumni.sfu.ca wrote: On Mon, 19 Jan 2009 07:20:24 -0600 mark.al...@l-3com.com wrote: The TC going electronic was covered well in the minutes, The TC going eletcronic was suggested at last year's (Jan. 2008) winter meeting (at CBSP) but was never acted on until it was brought up again this year. -- Lyndon Tiu - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
Re: [Texascavers] A bit of history for everyone :
On Mon, 19 Jan 2009 08:23:09 -0600 donarb...@mac.com wrote: It was suggested as far back as 2003. Then, it's about time we acted on it then. -- Lyndon Tiu - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
Re: [Texascavers] A bit of history for everyone :
It's clearly not that simple. Sent from my iPhone On Jan 19, 2009, at 8:24 AM, Lyndon Tiu l...@alumni.sfu.ca wrote: On Mon, 19 Jan 2009 08:23:09 -0600 donarb...@mac.com wrote: It was suggested as far back as 2003. Then, it's about time we acted on it then. -- Lyndon Tiu - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
Re: [Texascavers] A bit of history for everyone :
I agree. It is clearly not so simple. This has been an ongoing topic for yearsand like the Land Fund issue , it is something that many have a strong opinion about.it might have been a prudent idea to poll the membership prior to taking action. Sent from my iPhone On Jan 19, 2009, at 8:35 AM, Don Arburn donarb...@mac.com wrote: It's clearly not that simple. Sent from my iPhone On Jan 19, 2009, at 8:24 AM, Lyndon Tiu l...@alumni.sfu.ca wrote: On Mon, 19 Jan 2009 08:23:09 -0600 donarb...@mac.com wrote: It was suggested as far back as 2003. Then, it's about time we acted on it then. -- Lyndon Tiu - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
Re: [Texascavers] A bit of history for everyone :
Actually from what I recall of Robert's Rules, Denise went above and beyond in her minutes... The complete Treasurer's report spreadsheet should just be added as an attachment. Thanks for the hard work! http://www.parlipro.org/minutes.htm (unofficial) Joe On Sat, Jan 17, 2009 at 9:27 AM, Denise P pepabe...@hotmail.com wrote: Sorry if I did not do a good job on the meeting minutes. I am new to this, and my head was spinning with all the info going back and forth during the meeting. Perhaps I did not capture exactly what was decided about going electronic on the TC. I recorded the meeting on a recorder (hopefully), and can check it and report back. Though I'd rather not sit through that entire 1.25-hour meeting again, painful. It did not seem that important to me, so I only reported what seemed relevant. I had no idea it would be that controversial. I need to become better at foreseeing the future perhaps. There is no way I am going back and reading years of meeting minutes though. If that were a job requirement, I would resign. Regarding what was important about the finances, while I failed to state we had $7000 in the bank, I did report our ~$2000 loss for last year, and that was the big tropic of discussion, not the positive balance. So I think I did focus on the most important issue here. Maybe we can post the entire Treasurer's Report on the TSA website for full disclosure. It's easy to say what should have been done in retrospect, but a lot harder to get everything exactly right at the time it was occurring. People just love to find something to gripe about, and it gets annoying. We are trying to do our best but will always fail if perfection is expected. Give us officers a flipping break, please. Or at least me as I cannot really speak for the rest. -Denise -- To: wo...@justfamily.org; bmixon...@austin.rr.com Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 22:58:05 -0500 From: jerryat...@aol.com CC: texascavers@texascavers.com Subject: Re: [Texascavers] A bit of history for everyone : Interesting discussion. Probably not to most readers, but educational nonetheless. The number of postings and the rancor of the discussion lead to one very important point: the membership considers this a rather important issue. While it's true that only a few vocal posters have lead this discussion, I believe that a lot of members have opinions one way or the other. The issue of electronic vs hardcopy has been brought up several times before in the history of the TSA with decidedly heated results. It should have been no surprise to the TSA officers that it would be somewhat controversial to announce that the TxCvr was going electronic and not explain the details. I read the minutes of the last meeting and they didn't even include the discussion of the issue. The minutes read: The TSA Needs Money – *Alman suggested raising dues $5 per person and making it optional to receive the TEXAS CAVER **only electronically (would save $5 per issue).* Joe Ranzau brought up that it is a bad time to raise dues with the current economy. We have $7000 in the bank to cover another year in the red. Someone suggested printing less extra copies of the TEXAS CAVER to save costs. *Alman says perhaps as an incentive the electronic copy could be longer than the hardcopy. **Alman says in the next TEXAS CAVER he will propose the idea of offering it electronically instead of hardcopy for those interested, and see what the responses are. Alman will check with Butch on how it could be put on the web site. It was agreed **we do not need a vote on this.* As I read that, the issue was to be proposed and the responses tabulated. It seems we've come a bit further in the last 5 days than a simple proposal. Maybe the membership should have voted on the issue at the last meeting. Several years ago, the general membership was balloted as to their preferences of electronic vs hardcopy for the Texas Caver and the results were approximately 50:50. Times change, but there are still quite a few people out there that love and cherish their paper copies. Their desires should not be lightly dismissed as old fashioned or silly. They certainly should not be belittled. --- Your garandma might fight you if you try to take away her rocking chair. Note to the TSA officers: 1.) If you want to have more participation at TSA meetings, put together an agenda before the meeting and post it to CaveTex (TexasCavers.com). 2.) Those that do not study the past are doomed to repeat it. Read the old minutes from past meetings. It's your duty to know the history of your organization. 3.) While it's always a good idea to promote savings and tout the great things that these savings might be better spent on, our collective TSA history h as not supported this theory. It would be a better sell if the TSA did not have approximately $7000 in the bank, and could easily get back to a
Re: [Texascavers] A bit of history for everyone :
Way back when, I thought we did poll the membership. Personally I don't see a huge issue here: 1) A .PDF is practically a byproduct of digital editing. 2) Our publication is thought to be public sensitive, IOW some worry about copyright. However there are many methods to protect online documents. My favorite example was used by a company to protect online digital books I used to purchase and read: the password to get the book downloaded was your credit card number. You weren't going to share it. (clearly there are reasons nowadays NOT to use this method). 3) it had been discussed at one point that only back issues would be available online. Sent from my iPhone On Jan 19, 2009, at 8:52 AM, John Brooks jpbrook...@sbcglobal.net wrote: I agree. It is clearly not so simple. This has been an ongoing topic for yearsand like the Land Fund issue , it is something that many have a strong opinion about.it might have been a prudent idea to poll the membership prior to taking action. Sent from my iPhone On Jan 19, 2009, at 8:35 AM, Don Arburn donarb...@mac.com wrote: It's clearly not that simple. Sent from my iPhone On Jan 19, 2009, at 8:24 AM, Lyndon Tiu l...@alumni.sfu.ca wrote: On Mon, 19 Jan 2009 08:23:09 -0600 donarb...@mac.com wrote: It was suggested as far back as 2003. Then, it's about time we acted on it then. -- Lyndon Tiu - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com - Visit our website: http://texascavers.com To unsubscribe, e-mail: texascavers-unsubscr...@texascavers.com For additional commands, e-mail: texascavers-h...@texascavers.com
RE: [Texascavers] A bit of history for everyone :
Sorry if I did not do a good job on the meeting minutes. I am new to this, and my head was spinning with all the info going back and forth during the meeting. Perhaps I did not capture exactly what was decided about going electronic on the TC. I recorded the meeting on a recorder (hopefully), and can check it and report back. Though I'd rather not sit through that entire 1.25-hour meeting again, painful. It did not seem that important to me, so I only reported what seemed relevant. I had no idea it would be that controversial. I need to become better at foreseeing the future perhaps. There is no way I am going back and reading years of meeting minutes though. If that were a job requirement, I would resign. Regarding what was important about the finances, while I failed to state we had $7000 in the bank, I did report our ~$2000 loss for last year, and that was the big tropic of discussion, not the positive balance. So I think I did focus on the most important issue here. Maybe we can post the entire Treasurer's Report on the TSA website for full disclosure. It's easy to say what should have been done in retrospect, but a lot harder to get everything exactly right at the time it was occurring. People just love to find something to gripe about, and it gets annoying. We are trying to do our best but will always fail if perfection is expected. Give us officers a flipping break, please. Or at least me as I cannot really speak for the rest. -Denise To: wo...@justfamily.org; bmixon...@austin.rr.comDate: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 22:58:05 -0500From: jerryatkin@aol.comCC: texascavers@texascavers.comSubject: Re: [Texascavers] A bit of history for everyone :Interesting discussion. Probably not to most readers, but educational nonetheless.The number of postings and the rancor of the discussion lead to one very important point: the membership considers this a rather important issue. While it's true that only a few vocal posters have lead this discussion, I believe that a lot of members have opinions one way or the other. The issue of electronic vs hardcopy has been brought up several times before in the history of the TSA with decidedly heated results. It should have been no surprise to the TSA officers that it would be somewhat controversial to announce that the TxCvr was going electronic and not explain the details. I read the minutes of the last meeting and they didn't even include the discussion of the issue. The minutes read:The TSA Needs Money – Alman suggested raising dues $5 per person and making it optional to receive the TEXAS CAVER only electronically (would save $5 per issue). Joe Ranzau brought up that it is a bad time to raise dues with the current economy. We have $7000 in the bank to cover another year in the red. Someone suggested printing less extra copies of the TEXAS CAVER to save costs. Alman says perhaps as an incentive the electronic copy could be longer than the hardcopy. Alman says in the next TEXAS CAVER he will propose the idea of offering it electronically instead of hardcopy for those interested, and see what the responses are. Alman will check with Butch on how it could be put on the web site. It was agreed we do not need a vote on this.As I read that, the issue was to be proposed and the responses tabulated. It seems we've come a bit further in the last 5 days than a simple proposal. Maybe the membership should have voted on the issue at the last meeting.Several years ago, the general membership was balloted as to their preferences of electronic vs hardcopy for the Texas Caver and the results were approximately 50:50. Times change, but there are still quite a few people out there that love and cherish their paper copies. Their desires should not be lightly dismissed as old fashioned or silly. They certainly should not be belittled. --- Your garandma might fight you if you try to take away her rocking chair.Note to the TSA officers: 1.) If you want to have more participation at TSA meetings, put together an agenda before the meeting and post it to CaveTex (TexasCavers.com).2.) Those that do not study the past are doomed to repeat it. Read the old minutes from past meetings. It's your duty to know the history of your organization.3.) While it's always a good idea to promote savings and tout the great things that these savings might be better spent on, our collective TSA history h as not supported this theory. It would be a better sell if the TSA did not have approximately $7000 in the bank, and could easily get back to a positive cash flow balance with a more prudent selection of printers and mailing options. The TSA operated on a shoestring budget for almost 40 years (it once had a balance of $21 as I recall), and was a lot more robust and productive than today. 4.) Money is not the key challenge that the TSA has today. It's what does the TSA want to become in order to better serve it's membership.5.) We
Re: [Texascavers] A bit of history for everyone :
Just my point of view: I've got a pc and a laptop I dislike them both,I put them right up there with a recorded message telling me to hold on my call is important!!! I've got 2 cell phones I hate them as well. I can't curl up and be comfortable reading /listening to a book /pub on a computer even a lap top(it keeps falling off my lap. who coined that name )? I like books real hold in the hands ink smelling books. Something I can read when the power is off or the LAP TOP is lying dead and useless sitting in the corner. Who will be the depository of these silver frisbees if i want to look up an old article or will they just go to alphabet heaven. Maybe when I die I'll cross that Rainbow Bridge and see all my old dogs(chewing on all the old Texas Cavers.) Hopefully you all know about the Rainbow Bridge. www.rainbowbridge.com jerryat...@aol.com wrote: Interesting discussion. Probably not to most readers, but educational nonetheless. The number of postings and the rancor of the discussion lead to one very important point: the membership considers this a rather important issue. While it's true that only a few vocal posters have lead this discussion, I believe that a lot of members have opinions one way or the other. The issue of electronic vs hardcopy has been brought up several times before in the history of the TSA with decidedly heated results. It should have been no surprise to the TSA officers that it would be somewhat controversial to announce that the TxCvr was going electronic and not explain the details. I read the minutes of the last meeting and they didn't even include the discussion of the issue. The minutes read: The TSA Needs Money – Alman suggested raising dues $5 per person and making it optional to receive the TEXAS CAVER only electronically (would save $5 per issue). Joe Ranzau brought up that it is a bad time to raise dues with the current economy. We have $7000 in the bank to cover another year in the red. Someone suggested printing less extra copies of the TEXAS CAVER to save costs. Alman says perhaps as an incentive the electronic copy could be longer than the hardcopy. Alman says in the next TEXAS CAVER he will propose the idea of offering it electronically instead of hardcopy for those interested, and see what the responses are. Alman will check with Butch on how it could be put on20the web site. It was agreed we do not need a vote on this. As I read that, the issue was to be proposed and the responses tabulated. It seems we've come a bit further in the last 5 days than a simple proposal. Maybe the membership should have voted on the issue at the last meeting. Several years ago, the general membership was balloted as to their preferences of electronic vs hardcopy for the Texas Caver and the results were approximately 50:50. Times change, but there are still quite a few people out there that love and cherish their paper copies. Their desires should not be lightly dismissed as old fashioned or silly. They certainly should not be belittled. --- Your garandma might fight you if you try to take away her rocking chair. Note to the TSA officers: 1.) If you want to have more participation at TSA meetings, put together an agenda before the meeting and post it to CaveTex (TexasCavers.com). 2.) Those that do not study the past are doomed to repeat it. Read the old minutes from past meetings. It's your duty to know the history of your organization. 3.) While it's always a good idea to promote savings and tout the great things that these savings might be better spent on, our collective TSA history has not supported this theory. It would be a better sell if the TSA did not have approximately $7000 in the bank, and could easily get back to a positive cash flow balance with a more prudent selection of printers and m ailing options. The TSA operated on a shoestring budget for almost 40 years (it once had a balance of $21 as I recall), and was a lot more robust and productive than today. 4.) Money is not the key challenge that the TSA has today. It's what does the TSA want to become in order to better serve it's membership. 5.) We actually lowered TSA dues in 2003 as theTexas Caver was not being printed on a regular basis. 6.) The Secretary could expand a bit on some of the more important topics discussed at the TSA meetings when writing up the minutes. e.g. In the Treasurer's Report, there was no mention of the actual balance in the TSA accounts, even though that was a central topic of the meeting. Hang in there guys, there's nothing like on the job training. Jerry. -Original Message- From: Charles Goldsmith wo...@justfamily.org To: Mixon Bill bmixon...@austin.rr.com Cc: Cavers Texas texascavers@texascavers.com Sent: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 7:09 pm Subject: Re: [Texascavers] cost of Texas Caver Bill, I won't speak to the costs, Mark
Re: [Texascavers] A bit of history for everyone :
Denise, I wasn't there, so I can't compare the notes, and it sounds like a lot of the people complaining weren't either. There is no way you could have forseen this. I'll say this for the last time to all of the naysayers, stop complaining if you didn't attend the meeting! These are our elected officials, if you don't like the way they run things, change it during the next election! If you don't like the decisions they are making, show up and vote! It would probably be prudent for the officers to post an agenda from now on, preferably a few weeks in advance and here to the mailing list, so people can make plans to attend. Would this have solved our problems here? Probably not, because it sounds like the issue was the red ink, and these decisions were in response to that. Just my $0.02 worth, and take it for what it's worth, since I didn't attend either :) Charles On Sat, Jan 17, 2009 at 9:27 AM, Denise P pepabe...@hotmail.com wrote: Sorry if I did not do a good job on the meeting minutes. I am new to this, and my head was spinning with all the info going back and forth during the meeting. Perhaps I did not capture exactly what was decided about going electronic on the TC. I recorded the meeting on a recorder (hopefully), and can check it and report back. Though I'd rather not sit through that entire 1.25-hour meeting again, painful. It did not seem that important to me, so I only reported what seemed relevant. I had no idea it would be that controversial. I need to become better at foreseeing the future perhaps. There is no way I am going back and reading years of meeting minutes though. If that were a job requirement, I would resign. Regarding what was important about the finances, while I failed to state we had $7000 in the bank, I did report our ~$2000 loss for last year, and that was the big tropic of discussion, not the positive balance. So I think I did focus on the most important issue here. Maybe we can post the entire Treasurer's Report on the TSA website for full disclosure. It's easy to say what should have been done in retrospect, but a lot harder to get everything exactly right at the time it was occurring. People just love to find something to gripe about, and it gets annoying. We are trying to do our best but will always fail if perfection is expected. Give us officers a flipping break, please. Or at least me as I cannot really speak for the rest. -Denise To: wo...@justfamily.org; bmixon...@austin.rr.com Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 22:58:05 -0500 From: jerryat...@aol.com CC: texascavers@texascavers.com Subject: Re: [Texascavers] A bit of history for everyone : Interesting discussion. Probably not to most readers, but educational nonetheless. The number of postings and the rancor of the discussion lead to one very important point: the membership considers this a rather important issue. While it's true that only a few vocal posters have lead this discussion, I believe that a lot of members have opinions one way or the other. The issue of electronic vs hardcopy has been brought up several times before in the history of the TSA with decidedly heated results. It should have been no surprise to the TSA officers that it would be somewhat controversial to announce that the TxCvr was going electronic and not explain the details. I read the minutes of the last meeting and they didn't even include the discussion of the issue. The minutes read: The TSA Needs Money – Alman suggested raising dues $5 per person and making it optional to receive the TEXAS CAVER only electronically (would save $5 per issue). Joe Ranzau brought up that it is a bad time to raise dues with the current economy. We have $7000 in the bank to cover another year in the red. Someone suggested printing less extra copies of the TEXAS CAVER to save costs. Alman says perhaps as an incentive the electronic copy could be longer than the hardcopy. Alman says in the next TEXAS CAVER he will propose the idea of offering it electronically instead of hardcopy for those interested, and see what the responses are. Alman will check with Butch on how it could be put on the web site. It was agreed we do not need a vote on this. As I read that, the issue was to be proposed and the responses tabulated. It seems we've come a bit further in the last 5 days than a simple proposal. Maybe the membership should have voted on the issue at the last meeting. Several years ago, the general membership was balloted as to their preferences of electronic vs hardcopy for the Texas Caver and the results were approximately 50:50. Times change, but there are still quite a few people out there that love and cherish their paper copies. Their desires should not be lightly dismissed as old fashioned or silly. They certainly should not be belittled. --- Your garandma might fight you if you try to take away her rocking chair. Note to the TSA officers: 1.)
Re: [Texascavers] A bit of history for everyone :
Charles Could you send me the link to the page with the unsubscribing instructions for this list please? Nico
Re: [Texascavers] A bit of history for everyone :
Texascavers.com On Sat, Jan 17, 2009 at 3:25 PM, Nico Escamilla pitboun...@gmail.com wrote: Charles Could you send me the link to the page with the unsubscribing instructions for this list please? Nico
Re: [Texascavers] A bit of history for everyone :
Thank you Charles, might you let me know when this discussion is over so I can sign up again? On Sat, Jan 17, 2009 at 3:35 PM, Charles Goldsmith wo...@justfamily.orgwrote: Texascavers.com On Sat, Jan 17, 2009 at 3:25 PM, Nico Escamilla pitboun...@gmail.com wrote: Charles Could you send me the link to the page with the unsubscribing instructions for this list please? Nico
Re: [Texascavers] A bit of history for everyone :
No, Nico, don't give up on them! We need you connected to us. Maybe they'll stop. Maybe they'll even go caving. Bill --Original Message-- From: Nico Escamilla To: Texascavers Mailing List Cc: Charles Goldsmith Sent: Jan 17, 2009 3:25 PM Subject: Re: [Texascavers] A bit of history for everyone : Charles Could you send me the link to the page with the unsubscribing instructions for this list please? Nico Sent via BlackBerry by ATT
Re: [Texascavers] A bit of history for everyone :
Unsubbing isn't the answer, the delete key on the subjects you aren't interested in is the key. Unless you are just doing this out of protest, which is understandable. Controversy usually sends people packing, according to the limited amount of data/subscribers I've seen over the years :) Charles On Sat, Jan 17, 2009 at 3:42 PM, Nico Escamilla pitboun...@gmail.com wrote: Thank you Charles, might you let me know when this discussion is over so I can sign up again? On Sat, Jan 17, 2009 at 3:35 PM, Charles Goldsmith wo...@justfamily.org wrote: Texascavers.com On Sat, Jan 17, 2009 at 3:25 PM, Nico Escamilla pitboun...@gmail.com wrote: Charles Could you send me the link to the page with the unsubscribing instructions for this list please? Nico
Re: [Texascavers] A bit of history for everyone :
It is indeed out of protest that Im doing this, I am not a TSA member and probably never will as I'm anti anything political (or speleopolitical for that matter) but this discussion is just ridiculous, they all talk about costs and having their bookshelf full of paper wont they think of the non monetary resources being wasted? a few trees will be saved by switching the Caver to electronic paper IMO I will eventually sign back up when they drop this senseless discussion On Sat, Jan 17, 2009 at 4:10 PM, Charles Goldsmith wo...@justfamily.orgwrote: Unsubbing isn't the answer, the delete key on the subjects you aren't interested in is the key. Unless you are just doing this out of protest, which is understandable. Controversy usually sends people packing, according to the limited amount of data/subscribers I've seen over the years :) Charles On Sat, Jan 17, 2009 at 3:42 PM, Nico Escamilla pitboun...@gmail.com wrote: Thank you Charles, might you let me know when this discussion is over so I can sign up again? On Sat, Jan 17, 2009 at 3:35 PM, Charles Goldsmith wo...@justfamily.org wrote: Texascavers.com On Sat, Jan 17, 2009 at 3:25 PM, Nico Escamilla pitboun...@gmail.com wrote: Charles Could you send me the link to the page with the unsubscribing instructions for this list please? Nico
Re: [Texascavers] A bit of history for everyone :
I figured as much, not sure if you know, but I do archive this list into gmail groups (its not public though), so if you want to browse and not be subed :) Go to http://groups.google.com/group/cavetex and it should have something about joining, if not, let me know. It's not the most user friendly to get signed up, or wasn't when I set it up. I'll be in touch when things quieten down. Charles On Sat, Jan 17, 2009 at 4:17 PM, Nico Escamilla pitboun...@gmail.com wrote: It is indeed out of protest that Im doing this, I am not a TSA member and probably never will as I'm anti anything political (or speleopolitical for that matter) but this discussion is just ridiculous, they all talk about costs and having their bookshelf full of paper wont they think of the non monetary resources being wasted? a few trees will be saved by switching the Caver to electronic paper IMO I will eventually sign back up when they drop this senseless discussion On Sat, Jan 17, 2009 at 4:10 PM, Charles Goldsmith wo...@justfamily.org wrote: Unsubbing isn't the answer, the delete key on the subjects you aren't interested in is the key. Unless you are just doing this out of protest, which is understandable. Controversy usually sends people packing, according to the limited amount of data/subscribers I've seen over the years :) Charles On Sat, Jan 17, 2009 at 3:42 PM, Nico Escamilla pitboun...@gmail.com wrote: Thank you Charles, might you let me know when this discussion is over so I can sign up again? On Sat, Jan 17, 2009 at 3:35 PM, Charles Goldsmith wo...@justfamily.org wrote: Texascavers.com On Sat, Jan 17, 2009 at 3:25 PM, Nico Escamilla pitboun...@gmail.com wrote: Charles Could you send me the link to the page with the unsubscribing instructions for this list please? Nico
Re: [Texascavers] A bit of history for everyone :
Interesting discussion. Probably not to most readers, but educational nonetheless. The number of postings and the rancor of the discussion lead to one very important point: the membership considers this a rather important issue. While it's true that only a few vocal posters have lead this discussion, I believe that a lot of members have opinions one way or the other. The issue of electronic vs hardcopy has been brought up several times before in the history of the TSA with decidedly heated results. It should have been no surprise to the TSA officers that it would be somewhat controversial to announce that the TxCvr was going electronic and not explain the details. I read the minutes of the last meeting and they didn't even include the discussion of the issue. The minutes read: The TSA Needs Money – Alman suggested raising dues $5 per person and making it optional to receive the TEXAS CAVER only electronically (would save $5 per issue). Joe Ranzau brought up that it is a bad time to raise dues with the current economy. We have $7000 in the bank to cover another year in the red. Someone suggested printing less extra copies of the TEXAS CAVER to save costs. Alman says perhaps as an incentive the electronic copy could be longer than the hardcopy. Alman says in the next TEXAS CAVER he will propose the idea of offering it electronically instead of hardcopy for those interested, and see what the responses are. Alman will check with Butch on how it could be put on20the web site. It was agreed we do not need a vote on this. As I read that, the issue was to be proposed and the responses tabulated. It seems we've come a bit further in the last 5 days than a simple proposal. Maybe the membership should have voted on the issue at the last meeting. Several years ago, the general membership was balloted as to their preferences of electronic vs hardcopy for the Texas Caver and the results were approximately 50:50. Times change, but there are still quite a few people out there that love and cherish their paper copies. Their desires should not be lightly dismissed as old fashioned or silly. They certainly should not be belittled. --- Your garandma might fight you if you try to take away her rocking chair. Note to the TSA officers: 1.) If you want to have more participation at TSA meetings, put together an agenda before the meeting and post it to CaveTex (TexasCavers.com). 2.) Those that do not study the past are doomed to repeat it. Read the old minutes from past meetings. It's your duty to know the history of your organization. 3.) While it's always a good idea to promote savings and tout the great things that these savings might be better spent on, our collective TSA history has not supported this theory. It would be a better sell if the TSA did not have approximately $7000 in the bank, and could easily get back to a positive cash flow balance with a more prudent selection of printers and m ailing options. The TSA operated on a shoestring budget for almost 40 years (it once had a balance of $21 as I recall), and was a lot more robust and productive than today. 4.) Money is not the key challenge that the TSA has today. It's what does the TSA want to become in order to better serve it's membership. 5.) We actually lowered TSA dues in 2003 as theTexas Caver was not being printed on a regular basis. 6.) The Secretary could expand a bit on some of the more important topics discussed at the TSA meetings when writing up the minutes. e.g. In the Treasurer's Report, there was no mention of the actual balance in the TSA accounts, even though that was a central topic of the meeting. Hang in there guys, there's nothing like on the job training. Jerry. -Original Message- From: Charles Goldsmith wo...@justfamily.org To: Mixon Bill bmixon...@austin.rr.com Cc: Cavers Texas texascavers@texascavers.com Sent: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 7:09 pm Subject: Re: [Texascavers] cost of Texas Caver Bill, I won't speak to the costs, Mark A. will have to, he's been oing the leg work. However, Gill made an excellent point, aside from a very few that on't have computers (and they are obviously not posting here), there hould not be a hard copy printed and mailed at the cost of the TSA rom the dues, that money should go elsewhere. I would like to see 100% of our dues go to other things than rinting/mailing our newsletter. Charles On Fri, Jan 16, 2009 at 6:40 PM, Mixon Bill bmixon...@austin.rr.com wrote: I have gotten a quote from the printer I use for the Association for Mexican Cave Studies on an issue of the Texas Caver. For saddle-stitched in a cover printed both sides in full color and 24 inside bw pages (_four more_ than are in the most recent TC), the quote for quantity between 150 and 249 copies is $2.12 a copy plus $60 setup charges. The per-copy price changes by only about 5 cents for more or fewer. Assuming 200 copies, the setup charge comes to 30 cents a copy,
