from:"\"'Bohms, H.M. \\$Michel\\$' via TopBraid Suite Users\""

[topbraid-users] no superclass inference

2020-12-09 Thread &#x27;Bohms, H.M. (Michel)&#x27; via TopBraid Suite Users

I have a data file (anomalies-of-ijsselbridge.ttl)
With instances of subclasses of class Anomaly.

When I do:

PREFIX anomaly: 
PREFIX rdf: 
SELECT *
WHERE {
  ?Anomaly rdf:type anomaly:Anomaly .
  ?Anomaly anomaly:forPhysicalObject ?BridgePart .
  ?Anomaly anomaly:globalEffect ?GlobalEffect
}

Has no results since I first have to run the superclass inferences.
When I do that (or more generally run TopSpin) I do not get these superclass 
instances.

Any idea what I could do wrong?
(query on subclass runs fine)

Thx a lot, Michel



Dr. ir. H.M. (Michel) Bohms
Scientist Specialist
Structural Reliability

T +31 (0)88 866 31 07
M +31 (0)63 038 12 20
E michel.bo...@tno.nl

Location



[cid:image001.gif@01D6CE0F.16DF69E0]

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anomalies-of-ijsselbridge.ttl
Description: anomalies-of-ijsselbridge.ttl


smls-owl-2660.ttl
Description: smls-owl-2660.ttl


anomaly.ttl
Description: anomaly.ttl


bridge.ttl
Description: bridge.ttl


ijsselbridge.ttl
Description: ijsselbridge.ttl


probability.ttl
Description: probability.ttl

RE: [topbraid-users] no superclass inference

2020-12-09 Thread &#x27;Bohms, H.M. (Michel)&#x27; via TopBraid Suite Users

Ahh of course, thx

But…still strange my inferencing does not work…any tip welcome

Dr. ir. H.M. (Michel) Bohms
Scientist Specialist
Structural Reliability

T +31 (0)88 866 31 07
M +31 (0)63 038 12 20
E michel.bo...@tno.nl<mailto:michel.bo...@tno.nl>

Location<http://www.tno.nl/locations/DTS>

[cid:image001.gif@01D6CE11.64EEB620]<http://www.tno.nl/>

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Van: topbraid-users@googlegroups.com Namens
Holger Knublauch
Verzonden: woensdag 9 december 2020 09:47
Aan: topbraid-users@googlegroups.com
Onderwerp: Re: [topbraid-users] no superclass inference

Hi Michel,

this SPARQL engine is configured to only run on the asserted triples. The usual
mechanism to ask for instances of a given class is to use a path expression:

?instance rdf:type/rdfs:subClassOf* $superClass

in your case

?Anomaly rdf:type/rdfs:subClassOf* anomaly:Anomaly

This computes the "inferences" on the fly.

HTH
Holger

On 2020-12-09 6:38 pm, 'Bohms, H.M. (Michel)' via TopBraid Suite Users wrote:
I have a data file (anomalies-of-ijsselbridge.ttl)
With instances of subclasses of class Anomaly.

When I do:

PREFIX anomaly: <https://w3id.org/def/anomaly#><https://w3id.org/def/anomaly>
PREFIX rdf:
<http://www.w3.org/1999/02/22-rdf-syntax-ns#><http://www.w3.org/1999/02/22-rdf-syntax-ns>
SELECT *
WHERE {
?Anomaly rdf:type anomaly:Anomaly .
?Anomaly anomaly:forPhysicalObject ?BridgePart .
?Anomaly anomaly:globalEffect ?GlobalEffect
}

Has no results since I first have to run the superclass inferences.
When I do that (or more generally run TopSpin) I do not get these superclass
instances.

Any idea what I could do wrong?
(query on subclass runs fine)

Thx a lot, Michel

Dr. ir. H.M. (Michel) Bohms
Scientist Specialist
Structural Reliability

T +31 (0)88 866 31 07
M +31 (0)63 038 12 20
E michel.bo...@tno.nl<mailto:michel.bo...@tno.nl>

Location<http://www.tno.nl/locations/DTS>

[cid:image001.gif@01D6CE11.64EEB620]<http://www.tno.nl/>

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RE: [topbraid-users] no superclass inference

2020-12-10 Thread &#x27;Bohms, H.M. (Michel)&#x27; via TopBraid Suite Users

Still no success after ticking that box…no inferences are made



Dr. ir. H.M. (Michel) Bohms
Scientist Specialist
Structural Reliability

T +31 (0)88 866 31 07
M +31 (0)63 038 12 20
E michel.bo...@tno.nl<mailto:michel.bo...@tno.nl>

Location<http://www.tno.nl/locations/DTS>



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Van: topbraid-users@googlegroups.com  Namens 
Holger Knublauch
Verzonden: donderdag 10 december 2020 01:20
Aan: topbraid-users@googlegroups.com
Onderwerp: Re: [topbraid-users] no superclass inference



On 2020-12-09 6:55 pm, 'Bohms, H.M. (Michel)' via TopBraid Suite Users wrote:
Ahh of course, thx

But…still strange my inferencing does not work…any tip welcome

With OWL RL profile, the SPIN engine will by default remove "redundant" 
inferences after the engine finishes. Active this

[cid:image002.png@01D6CED6.A605F5E0]

Complete Mode to see the rdfs:subClassOf inferences too.

Holger





Dr. ir. H.M. (Michel) Bohms
Scientist Specialist
Structural Reliability

T +31 (0)88 866 31 07
M +31 (0)63 038 12 20
E michel.bo...@tno.nl<mailto:michel.bo...@tno.nl>

Location<http://www.tno.nl/locations/DTS>



[cid:image001.gif@01D6CED6.A605F5E0]<http://www.tno.nl/>

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Van: topbraid-users@googlegroups.com<mailto:topbraid-users@googlegroups.com> 
<mailto:topbraid-users@googlegroups.com> 
Namens Holger Knublauch
Verzonden: woensdag 9 december 2020 09:47
Aan: topbraid-users@googlegroups.com<mailto:topbraid-users@googlegroups.com>
Onderwerp: Re: [topbraid-users] no superclass inference


Hi Michel,

this SPARQL engine is configured to only run on the asserted triples. The usual 
mechanism to ask for instances of a given class is to use a path expression:

?instance rdf:type/rdfs:subClassOf* $superClass

in your case

?Anomaly rdf:type/rdfs:subClassOf* anomaly:Anomaly

This computes the "inferences" on the fly.

HTH
Holger


On 2020-12-09 6:38 pm, 'Bohms, H.M. (Michel)' via TopBraid Suite Users wrote:
I have a data file (anomalies-of-ijsselbridge.ttl)
With instances of subclasses of class Anomaly.

When I do:

PREFIX anomaly: <https://w3id.org/def/anomaly#><https://w3id.org/def/anomaly>
PREFIX rdf: 
<http://www.w3.org/1999/02/22-rdf-syntax-ns#><http://www.w3.org/1999/02/22-rdf-syntax-ns>
SELECT *
WHERE {
  ?Anomaly rdf:type anomaly:Anomaly .
  ?Anomaly anomaly:forPhysicalObject ?BridgePart .
  ?Anomaly anomaly:globalEffect ?GlobalEffect
}

Has no results since I first have to run the superclass inferences.
When I do that (or more generally run TopSpin) I do not get these superclass 
instances.

Any idea what I could do wrong?
(query on subclass runs fine)

Thx a lot, Michel



Dr. ir. H.M. (Michel) Bohms
Scientist Specialist
Structural Reliability

T +31 (0)88 866 31 07
M +31 (0)63 038 12 20
E michel.bo...@tno.nl<mailto:michel.bo...@tno.nl>

Location<http://www.tno.nl/locations/DTS>



[cid:image001.gif@01D6CED6.A605F5E0]<http://www.tno.nl/>

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RE: [topbraid-users] no superclass inference

2020-12-11 Thread &#x27;Bohms, H.M. (Michel)&#x27; via TopBraid Suite Users

I sent them in my first mail

I have instances  of a subclass of Anomaly.
After reasoning no instances of Anomaly.

Instances are in anomalies-f—ijsselbridge, rest is just imported

Like

aib:PartialLockingRotation_3
  a anomaly:PartialLockingRotation ;
  anomaly:forPhysicalObject ib:Pillar_H ;
  anomaly:globalEffect true ;
  anomaly:parameterType anomaly:Probabilistic ;
  anomaly:rotationalStiffness [
  prob:posteriorMean [
  rdf:value "0.3E9"^^xsd:float ;
] ;
  prob:posteriorStdev [
  rdf:value "5E8"^^xsd:float ;
] ;
  prob:priorDistributionType prob:UniformDistribution ;
  prob:priorMean [
  rdf:value "5.0E14"^^xsd:float ;
] ;
  prob:priorStdev [
  rdf:value "2.89E14"^^xsd:float ;
] ;
] ;
.



Dr. ir. H.M. (Michel) Bohms
Scientist Specialist
Structural Reliability

T +31 (0)88 866 31 07
M +31 (0)63 038 12 20
E michel.bo...@tno.nl<mailto:michel.bo...@tno.nl>

Location<http://www.tno.nl/locations/DTS>



[cid:image001.gif@01D6CF9D.FB631C80]<http://www.tno.nl/>

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Van: topbraid-users@googlegroups.com  Namens 
Holger Knublauch
Verzonden: vrijdag 11 december 2020 01:45
Aan: topbraid-users@googlegroups.com
Onderwerp: Re: [topbraid-users] no superclass inference



On 2020-12-10 6:27 pm, 'Bohms, H.M. (Michel)' via TopBraid Suite Users wrote:
Still no success after ticking that box…no inferences are made

At this stage I don't know what inferences you are expecting and what the 
ontology looks like.
Thanks

Holger

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anomalies-of-ijsselbridge.ttl
Description: anomalies-of-ijsselbridge.ttl


anomaly.ttl
Description: anomaly.ttl


bridge.ttl
Description: bridge.ttl


ijsselbridge.ttl
Description: ijsselbridge.ttl


probability.ttl
Description: probability.ttl


smls-owl-2660.ttl
Description: smls-owl-2660.ttl

[topbraid-users] no instances shown

2021-01-14 Thread &#x27;Bohms, H.M. (Michel)&#x27; via TopBraid Suite Users

When loading the nen2660-dat.owl.ttl ontology (importing the others recurs.) I 
do not see the defined instances in tbc.

Example:

nen2660-dat.owl:Fluid
  a nen2660-2-ont.owl:AggregationStateType ;
  skos:prefLabel "Fluid"@en ;
.

Is not visible in tbc.

Any tip very welcome!!
Thx Michel



Dr. ir. H.M. (Michel) Bohms
Scientist Specialist
Structural Reliability

T +31 (0)88 866 31 07
M +31 (0)63 038 12 20
E michel.bo...@tno.nl

Location



[cid:image001.gif@01D6EAAD.605B8260]

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nen2660-dat.owl.ttl
Description: nen2660-dat.owl.ttl


nen2660-2-ont.owl.ttl
Description: nen2660-2-ont.owl.ttl


nen2660-1-ont.owl.ttl
Description: nen2660-1-ont.owl.ttl

Re: [topbraid-users] no instances shown

2021-01-14 Thread &#x27;Bohms, H.M. (Michel)&#x27; via TopBraid Suite Users

Just cant see it.
Kind of modelblind i guess..

Op 14 jan. 2021 20:15 schreef David Price :
Your ontology imports do not resolve as they are using the wrong URI. Look at
Imports tab.

Cheers,
David

On 14 Jan 2021, at 18:42, 'Bohms, H.M. (Michel)' via TopBraid Suite Users
mailto:topbraid-users@googlegroups.com>> wrote:

When loading the nen2660-dat.owl.ttl ontology (importing the others recurs.) I
do not see the defined instances in tbc.

Example:

nen2660-dat.owl:Fluid
a nen2660-2-ont.owl:AggregationStateType ;
skos:prefLabel "Fluid"@en ;
.

Is not visible in tbc.

Any tip very welcome!!
Thx Michel

Dr. ir. H.M. (Michel) Bohms
Scientist Specialist
Structural Reliability

T +31 (0)88 866 31 07
M +31 (0)63 038 12 20
E michel.bo...@tno.nl<mailto:michel.bo...@tno.nl>

Location<http://www.tno.nl/locations/DTS>

<http://www.tno.nl/>

UK +44 (0) 7788 561308
US +1 (336) 283-0808‬

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RE: [topbraid-users] no instances shown

2021-01-15 Thread &#x27;Bohms, H.M. (Michel)&#x27; via TopBraid Suite Users

Spotted the error, finally, thx

Dr. ir. H.M. (Michel) Bohms
Scientist Specialist
Structural Reliability

T +31 (0)88 866 31 07
M +31 (0)63 038 12 20
E michel.bo...@tno.nl<mailto:michel.bo...@tno.nl>

Location<http://www.tno.nl/locations/DTS>

[cid:image001.gif@01D6EB23.FEB7F620]<http://www.tno.nl/>

Van: topbraid-users@googlegroups.com Namens
David Price
Verzonden: donderdag 14 januari 2021 20:15
Aan: topbraid-users@googlegroups.com
Onderwerp: Re: [topbraid-users] no instances shown

Your ontology imports do not resolve as they are using the wrong URI. Look at
Imports tab.

Cheers,
David

On 14 Jan 2021, at 18:42, 'Bohms, H.M. (Michel)' via TopBraid Suite Users
mailto:topbraid-users@googlegroups.com>> wrote:

When loading the nen2660-dat.owl.ttl ontology (importing the others recurs.) I
do not see the defined instances in tbc.

Example:

nen2660-dat.owl:Fluid
a nen2660-2-ont.owl:AggregationStateType ;
skos:prefLabel "Fluid"@en ;
.

Is not visible in tbc.

Any tip very welcome!!
Thx Michel

Dr. ir. H.M. (Michel) Bohms
Scientist Specialist
Structural Reliability

T +31 (0)88 866 31 07
M +31 (0)63 038 12 20
E michel.bo...@tno.nl<mailto:michel.bo...@tno.nl>

Location<http://www.tno.nl/locations/DTS>

<http://www.tno.nl/>

UK +44 (0) 7788 561308
US +1 (336) 283-0808

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[topbraid-users] class name?

2021-02-10 Thread &#x27;Bohms, H.M. (Michel)&#x27; via TopBraid Suite Users

Is it possible that a classname starts with a number?
"2L-14"

(I experienced an issue in TBC)



Dr. ir. H.M. (Michel) Bohms
Scientist Specialist
Structural Reliability

T +31 (0)88 866 31 07
M +31 (0)63 038 12 20
E michel.bo...@tno.nl

Location



[cid:image001.gif@01D6FF9E.1BFCDB40]

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RE: [topbraid-users] class name?

2021-02-10 Thread &#x27;Bohms, H.M. (Michel)&#x27; via TopBraid Suite Users

Van: topbraid-users@googlegroups.com Namens
David Price
Verzonden: woensdag 10 februari 2021 13:29
Aan: topbraid-users@googlegroups.com
Onderwerp: Re: [topbraid-users] class name?

I assume by “class name” you mean the local name part of the URI following the
hash or final slash. If not, then ask again and be more clear.

Øyes

If I remember correctly, there is or was some issue with the local name part of
a URI starting with a number wrt being 100% valid following the underlying
standards for such things (and I mean down int the lower level standards, not
in SHACL or OWL/RDFS).

ØI assume its an rdf-level issue indeed

I do remember odd/occasional cases where the maybe the encoding into TTL or
viewing in the UI didn’t correctly use prefixes. If it’s a concern, what I’ve
done in the past was always have the URI-building-function include something
for the local name that like “ID_” + to make sure and avoid those
cases.

That said, I’ve also worked on projects using TBC and EDG where numbers were
used and everything important works. In fact, in some projects the whole local
name was an integer cast into a string for use in building the URI.

So, “2L-14” should be fine even if you occasionally see something a bit odd in
a TBC UI, etc.

ØThe actual issue I have now:

wn:TL-ZOAB-dl
rdf:type owl:Class ;
rdfs:subClassOf wn:TL-PA ;
.

Client wants:

wn:1L-ZOAB-dl
rdf:type owl:Class ;
rdfs:subClassOf wn:TL-PA ;
.

(being a subclass of asphalt)

In TBC:
When I change to 2nd option I get:

[cid:image001.png@01D6FFB9.C5115B50]

So the name space (“wn”) disappears…

Cheers,
David

On 10 Feb 2021, at 10:16, 'Bohms, H.M. (Michel)' via TopBraid Suite Users
mailto:topbraid-users@googlegroups.com>> wrote:

Is it possible that a classname starts with a number?
“2L-14”

(I experienced an issue in TBC)

Dr. ir. H.M. (Michel) Bohms
Scientist Specialist
Structural Reliability

T +31 (0)88 866 31 07
M +31 (0)63 038 12 20
E michel.bo...@tno.nl<mailto:michel.bo...@tno.nl>

Location<http://www.tno.nl/locations/DTS>

<http://www.tno.nl/>

UK +44 (0) 7788 561308
US +1 (336) 283-0808

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RE: [topbraid-users] class name?

2021-02-10 Thread &#x27;Bohms, H.M. (Michel)&#x27; via TopBraid Suite Users

It is not just an interface issue

Also in the file after save it gives:

<https://w3id.org/def//wegennetwerk#1L-ZOAB-dl>
  a owl:Class ;
  rdfs:subClassOf wn:TL-PA ;
.

Instead of:

wn::1L-ZOAB-dl
  a owl:Class ;
  rdfs:subClassOf wn:TL-PA ;
.

So if the spec allows I would just see it as an TBC issue that could be fixed….

michel

Dr. ir. H.M. (Michel) Bohms
Scientist Specialist
Structural Reliability

T +31 (0)88 866 31 07
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Van: topbraid-users@googlegroups.com  Namens 
David Price
Verzonden: woensdag 10 februari 2021 14:54
Aan: topbraid-users@googlegroups.com
Onderwerp: Re: [topbraid-users] class name?

On 10 Feb 2021, at 13:34, 'Bohms, H.M. (Michel)' via TopBraid Suite Users 
mailto:topbraid-users@googlegroups.com>> wrote:

Van: topbraid-users@googlegroups.com<mailto:topbraid-users@googlegroups.com> 
mailto:topbraid-users@googlegroups.com>> 
Namens David Price
Verzonden: woensdag 10 februari 2021 13:29
Aan: topbraid-users@googlegroups.com<mailto:topbraid-users@googlegroups.com>
Onderwerp: Re: [topbraid-users] class name?

I assume by “class name” you mean the local name part of the URI following the 
hash or final slash. If not, then ask again and be more clear.

>yes

If I remember correctly, there is or was some issue with the local name part of 
a URI starting with a number wrt being 100% valid following the underlying 
standards for such things (and I mean down int the lower level standards, not 
in SHACL or OWL/RDFS).

>I assume its an rdf-level issue indeed

I do remember odd/occasional cases where the maybe the encoding into TTL or 
viewing in the UI didn’t correctly use prefixes. If it’s a concern, what I’ve 
done in the past was always have the URI-building-function include something 
for the local name that like “ID_” +  to make sure and avoid those 
cases.

That said, I’ve also worked on projects using TBC and EDG where numbers were 
used and everything important works. In fact, in some projects the whole local 
name was an integer cast into a string for use in building the URI.

So, “2L-14” should be fine even if you occasionally see something a bit odd in 
a TBC UI, etc.

>The actual issue I have now:

wn:TL-ZOAB-dl
  rdf:type owl:Class ;
  rdfs:subClassOf wn:TL-PA ;
.

Client wants:

wn:1L-ZOAB-dl
  rdf:type owl:Class ;
  rdfs:subClassOf wn:TL-PA ;
.

(being a subclass of asphalt)

In TBC:
When I change to 2nd option I get:

[cid:image003.png@01D6FFBE.B9CFA2B0]

So the name space (“wn”) disappears…

Yes, as I mentioned I did remember this wrt TBC form and prefixes in this case. 
I cannot remember the underlying issue but as I said I think there was a time 
when these were not “valid” wrt some standard.

In any case, everything “works” as far as the semantics are concerned.  If that 
form is a problem for you/client, then I suggest using the “human label” UI 
mode (person icon next to Home icon) in Composer where it will show the 
rdfs:label instead of the local name of the URI. That means you also get the 
much cleaner looking use of spaces in the UI wrt class and property names.

FWIW Composer is an IDE intended for developers, and there is the human label 
view mode, so these corner cases are not something likely to ever be “fixed” in 
Composer.

Cheers,
David

On 10 Feb 2021, at 10:16, 'Bohms, H.M. (Michel)' via TopBraid Suite Users 
mailto:topbraid-users@googlegroups.com>> wrote:

Is it possible that a classname starts with a number?
“2L-14”

(I experienced an issue in TBC)

Dr. ir. H.M. (Michel) Bohms
Scientist Specialist
Structural Reliability

T +31 (0)88 866 31 07
M +31 (0)63 038 12 20
E michel.bo...@tno.nl<mailto:michel.bo...@tno.nl>

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[topbraid-users] prefix suggestions

2021-02-12 Thread &#x27;Bohms, H.M. (Michel)&#x27; via TopBraid Suite Users

When instantiating a class in wegennetwerken, tbc always suggeste the prefix 
quantitykind.
Cant find out why (why not its own prefix being wn)

Thx Michel



Dr. ir. H.M. (Michel) Bohms
Scientist Specialist
Structural Reliability

T +31 (0)88 866 31 07
M +31 (0)63 038 12 20
E michel.bo...@tno.nl

Location



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wegennetwerk.ttl
Description: wegennetwerk.ttl


nen2660.ttl
Description: nen2660.ttl

RE: [topbraid-users] prefix suggestions

2021-02-12 Thread &#x27;Bohms, H.M. (Michel)&#x27; via TopBraid Suite Users

Aarrgghh
Sometimes one can be blind for these things
How stupid…

Thx!!



Dr. ir. H.M. (Michel) Bohms
Scientist Specialist
Structural Reliability

T +31 (0)88 866 31 07
M +31 (0)63 038 12 20
E michel.bo...@tno.nl<mailto:michel.bo...@tno.nl>

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Van: topbraid-users@googlegroups.com  Namens 
David Price
Verzonden: vrijdag 12 februari 2021 11:45
Aan: topbraid-users@googlegroups.com
Onderwerp: Re: [topbraid-users] prefix suggestions

Hi Michel,

The wn prefix is not defined correctly (extra "/" after "def"):

@prefix wn: <https://w3id.org/def//wegennetwerk#> .

Cheers,
David



On 12 Feb 2021, at 10:25, 'Bohms, H.M. (Michel)' via TopBraid Suite Users 
mailto:topbraid-users@googlegroups.com>> wrote:

When instantiating a class in wegennetwerken, tbc always suggeste the prefix 
quantitykind.
Cant find out why (why not its own prefix being wn)

Thx Michel



Dr. ir. H.M. (Michel) Bohms
Scientist Specialist
Structural Reliability

T +31 (0)88 866 31 07
M +31 (0)63 038 12 20
E michel.bo...@tno.nl<mailto:michel.bo...@tno.nl>

Location<http://www.tno.nl/locations/DTS>



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[topbraid-users] property chains

2021-02-19 Thread &#x27;Bohms, H.M. (Michel)&#x27; via TopBraid Suite Users

Wondering why my property chain is not inferred?
(I ticked the owl-rl profile)

I try to bring the valued properties from type-level to instance level.

Thx for any tip, Michel



Dr. ir. H.M. (Michel) Bohms
Scientist Specialist
Structural Reliability

T +31 (0)88 866 31 07
M +31 (0)63 038 12 20
E michel.bo...@tno.nl

Location



[cid:image001.gif@01D706A4.096A8CE0]

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producttype-3_and_property_chain_axiom.ttl
Description: producttype-3_and_property_chain_axiom.ttl


producttype-3_and_property_chain_axiom.ttl.tbc
Description: producttype-3_and_property_chain_axiom.ttl.tbc


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Description: nen2660.ttl

[topbraid-users] RE: property chains

2021-02-19 Thread &#x27;Bohms, H.M. (Michel)&#x27; via TopBraid Suite Users

It seems it just took a long time….
Result is there when patient enough

Can this be speeded up ?

It’s removing redundant stuff for a long time I see now…

Thx michel

Dr. ir. H.M. (Michel) Bohms
Scientist Specialist
Structural Reliability

T +31 (0)88 866 31 07
M +31 (0)63 038 12 20
E michel.bo...@tno.nl<mailto:michel.bo...@tno.nl>

Location<http://www.tno.nl/locations/DTS>

[cid:image001.gif@01D706CA.E350E910]<http://www.tno.nl/>

Van: 'Bohms, H.M. (Michel)' via TopBraid Suite Users

Verzonden: vrijdag 19 februari 2021 09:46
Aan: topbraid-users@googlegroups.com
Onderwerp: [topbraid-users] property chains

Wondering why my property chain is not inferred?
(I ticked the owl-rl profile)

I try to bring the valued properties from type-level to instance level.

Thx for any tip, Michel

Dr. ir. H.M. (Michel) Bohms
Scientist Specialist
Structural Reliability

T +31 (0)88 866 31 07
M +31 (0)63 038 12 20
E michel.bo...@tno.nl<mailto:michel.bo...@tno.nl>

Location<http://www.tno.nl/locations/DTS>

[cid:image001.gif@01D706CA.E350E910]<http://www.tno.nl/>

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Re: [topbraid-users] RE: property chains

2021-02-20 Thread &#x27;Bohms, H.M. (Michel)&#x27; via TopBraid Suite Users

Thx

Wasnt there a way to not do the remove of redundant inferences?

Op 20 feb. 2021 07:43 schreef Holger Knublauch :

FWIW on my machine this took 96 seconds to infer 272152 triples. Then another
minute or two to remove redundant inferences.

Our OWL-RL implementation is what it is. The design it a pretty simplistic
implementation of the spec. To take more control of performance, use SPARQL
CONSTRUCT queries?

Holger

On 2021-02-19 11:24 pm, 'Bohms, H.M. (Michel)' via TopBraid Suite Users wrote:
It seems it just took a long time….
Result is there when patient enough

Can this be speeded up ?

It’s removing redundant stuff for a long time I see now…

Thx michel

Dr. ir. H.M. (Michel) Bohms
Scientist Specialist
Structural Reliability

T +31 (0)88 866 31 07
M +31 (0)63 038 12 20
E michel.bo...@tno.nl<mailto:michel.bo...@tno.nl>

Location<http://www.tno.nl/locations/DTS>

[cid:part3.270389F3.FAC2FD10@topquadrant.com]<http://www.tno.nl/>

Van: 'Bohms, H.M. (Michel)' via TopBraid Suite Users
<mailto:topbraid-users@googlegroups.com>
Verzonden: vrijdag 19 februari 2021 09:46
Aan: topbraid-users@googlegroups.com<mailto:topbraid-users@googlegroups.com>
Onderwerp: [topbraid-users] property chains

Wondering why my property chain is not inferred?
(I ticked the owl-rl profile)

I try to bring the valued properties from type-level to instance level.

Thx for any tip, Michel

Dr. ir. H.M. (Michel) Bohms
Scientist Specialist
Structural Reliability

T +31 (0)88 866 31 07
M +31 (0)63 038 12 20
E michel.bo...@tno.nl<mailto:michel.bo...@tno.nl>

Location<http://www.tno.nl/locations/DTS>

[cid:part3.270389F3.FAC2FD10@topquadrant.com]<http://www.tno.nl/>

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[topbraid-users] json-ld question

2021-03-18 Thread &#x27;Bohms, H.M. (Michel)&#x27; via TopBraid Suite Users

Not really TBC questions but I guess you can give the best answer.

I see popularity of json-ld rising a lot (as optimal compromise between webdev
and ld/sw world) where people might just forget about the (for them) complex
RDF conceptuals above….

In that sense I see more and more projects that go json-ld (iso rdf/xml, turtle
etc.) also involving storage options like mongodb iso triple/quad stores. At
the same time people like graphql(-ld) over sparql.

These trends gives rise for me to some issues:

1.
If RDF* evolves bringing us better metadata options (treating statements as
objects again) on LD side would that also give rise to a JSON-LD* next to
Turtle*?
Or is json-ld already by itself more flexible here so that no change is needed?
(ie is the current use of json-ld as RDF serialization an already restricted
usage?)

I am trying to find out if turtle and hence Turtle* will have advantages over
json-ld…

2.
I know graphQL-LD approach as defined/demonstrated etc. by Ghent university
(https://comunica.github.io/Article-ISWC2018-Demo-GraphQlLD/).
Is your prefixes graphql schema extension doing (functionaly) the same?
If so isn’t there room for a standard graph-ql-ld variant having those
extensions in a standard way?
Or… is such a GraphQL update already in the making (much a like json to
json-ld)?

3.
What will happen in future: shacl or graphql schema or both?
(knowing slide no. 20 from:
https://www.topquadrant.com/project/graphql_json_rdf/)

4.
Why is there a graphql schema language anyway? Why not use json-ld schema
definitions for that (because it is not powerful enough)?
(like in schema.org if I am right)

Sorry if these questions are out of scope.
It’s just that I need some story when people ask “why do we have shacl/sparql,
graphql schema/graphql, json-ld for schemas (and also json schema)….can’t you
make up your mind?”😊

Thx for your views
Michel

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Scientist Specialist
Structural Reliability

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RE: [topbraid-users] json-ld question

2021-03-18 Thread &#x27;Bohms, H.M. (Michel)&#x27; via TopBraid Suite Users

Thx David, all clear!


Wrt the red below, the editor things differently in: 
http://manu.sporny.org/2014/json-ld-origins-2/

Where he says:

“
I’ve heard many people say that JSON-LD is primarily about the Semantic Web, 
but I disagree, it’s not about that at all. JSON-LD was created for Web 
Developers that are working with data that is important to other people and 
must interoperate across the Web. The Semantic Web was near the bottom of my 
list of “things to care about” when working on JSON-LD, and anyone that tells 
you otherwise is wrong. [😛]
TL;DR: The desire for better Web APIs is what motivated the creation of 
JSON-LD, not the Semantic Web. If you want to make the Semantic Web a reality, 
stop making the case for it and spend your time doing something more useful, 
like actually making machines smarter or helping people publish data in a way 
that’s useful to them.
"

For someone with an RDF-hat that sees JSON-LD as “just” a RDF serialization 
(like turtle, drf/xml, nriples etc.)  I can see your point.
But we have to be aware of people with other heads.

And yes, I know RDFS/OWL/SHACL are providing features not in json-ld (when used 
on schema level), JSON Schema or  graphql schema.

So indeed as you say the truth will be in the middle (of webdev & LD) depending 
on the specific use cases.
Its more that we are promoting LD so much but at the same time and we encounter 
people  that like manu sporny want to do things simpler, webdev-based, etc. and 
then we need a good story.
Sometimes wished we good look 5 /10 years ahead 😊

THX Michel


On 18 Mar 2021, at 13:01, 'Bohms, H.M. (Michel)' via TopBraid Suite Users 
mailto:topbraid-users@googlegroups.com>> wrote:

Not really TBC questions but I guess you can give the best answer.

I see popularity of json-ld rising a lot (as optimal compromise between webdev 
and ld/sw world) where people might just forget about the (for them) complex 
RDF conceptuals above….

JSON-LD does nothing to reduce the complex concepts that might be defined in 
RDFS, OWL or SHACL data models.  JSON-LD is an implementation format for 
RDF-based data. Without the underlying RDF-based model there is no JSON-LD.

It makes sense for Web developers to use anything making Javascript development 
easier (e.g. eliminating having to learn a new format/syntax) . So, for that 
scenario JSON-LD may very well be their preference.

However, most folks think TTL is easier to read and write in a text editor, for 
example vs JSON-LD or RDF/XML. Also, if you don’t know/prefer Javascript and 
JSON you may not going to prefer JSON-LD or if your application is not 
browser-based then it may actually be a Con, not a Pro.



In that sense I see more and more projects that go json-ld (iso rdf/xml, turtle 
etc.) also involving storage options like mongodb iso triple/quad stores. At 
the same time people like graphql(-ld) over sparql.

Probably depends on if you come from a database vs. Web developer background as 
much as anything else.



These trends gives rise for me to some issues:

1.
If RDF* evolves bringing us better metadata options (treating statements as 
objects again) on LD side would that also give rise to a JSON-LD* next to 
Turtle*?
Or is json-ld already by itself more flexible here so that no change is needed? 
(ie is the current use of json-ld as RDF serialization an already restricted 
usage?)

I am trying to find out if turtle and hence Turtle* will have advantages over 
json-ld…


Until we see the final “standards” we cannot be 100% sure, but it seems 
unlikely one will be better than the other wrt this question. I imagine the 
criteria for choosing between them in a specific scenario is unlikely to 
change. Again, we’ll have to wait and see though as nobody knows right now.


2.
I know graphQL-LD approach as defined/demonstrated etc. by Ghent university 
(https://comunica.github.io/Article-ISWC2018-Demo-GraphQlLD/).
Is your prefixes graphql schema extension doing (functionaly) the same?

Our Web site says:

Query schemas for use with GraphQL are automatically generated from the data 
models. This includes powerful features to select, filter, aggregate, 
dynamically compute and page results. For even more power, full support for 
SPARQL expressions is available from GraphQL queries. Data updates are 
automatically validated using SHACL shapes.

So I’ll guess not exactly the same as what Ghent is doing.


If so isn’t there room for a standard graph-ql-ld variant having those 
extensions in a standard way?
Or… is such a GraphQL update already in the making (much a like json to 
json-ld)?

There is a working draft next release of GraphQL online but it does not mention 
this topic as far as I can tell. I’m not a GraphQL expert though.



3.
What will happen in future: shacl or graphql schema or both?
(knowing slide no. 20 from: 
https://www.topquadrant.com/project/graphql_json_rdf/)

If you mean in EDG for the next few years, then “both”. Cannot say for o

RE: [topbraid-users] json-ld question

2021-03-18 Thread &#x27;Bohms, H.M. (Michel)&#x27; via TopBraid Suite Users

Wrt my first issue I just came across:

https://json-ld.github.io/json-ld-star/

😊

Which was exactly I was looking for !

(This NOTE explores an extension of JSON-LD which can allow the value of an @id 
property to be an embedded 
node<https://json-ld.github.io/json-ld-star/#dfn-embedded-node>, and the 
description of an annotation 
object<https://json-ld.github.io/json-ld-star/#dfn-annotation-object> which 
serves as a short-hand when the annotated value also is described directly in 
the graph.)

{
 "@context": {
"@base": "http://example.org/";,
"@vocab": "http://example.org/";
 },
 "@id": {
"@id": "bob",
"age": 42
 },
 "certainty": 0.8
}

Gr michel





Dr. ir. H.M. (Michel) Bohms
Scientist Specialist
Structural Reliability

T +31 (0)88 866 31 07
M +31 (0)63 038 12 20
E michel.bo...@tno.nl<mailto:michel.bo...@tno.nl>

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Van: topbraid-users@googlegroups.com  Namens 
David Price
Verzonden: donderdag 18 maart 2021 15:22
Aan: topbraid-users@googlegroups.com
Onderwerp: Re: [topbraid-users] json-ld question




On 18 Mar 2021, at 13:01, 'Bohms, H.M. (Michel)' via TopBraid Suite Users 
mailto:topbraid-users@googlegroups.com>> wrote:

Not really TBC questions but I guess you can give the best answer.

I see popularity of json-ld rising a lot (as optimal compromise between webdev 
and ld/sw world) where people might just forget about the (for them) complex 
RDF conceptuals above….

JSON-LD does nothing to reduce the complex concepts that might be defined in 
RDFS, OWL or SHACL data models.  JSON-LD is an implementation format for 
RDF-based data. Without the underlying RDF-based model there is no JSON-LD.

It makes sense for Web developers to use anything making Javascript development 
easier (e.g. eliminating having to learn a new format/syntax) . So, for that 
scenario JSON-LD may very well be their preference.

However, most folks think TTL is easier to read and write in a text editor, for 
example vs JSON-LD or RDF/XML. Also, if you don’t know/prefer Javascript and 
JSON you may not going to prefer JSON-LD or if your application is not 
browser-based then it may actually be a Con, not a Pro.



In that sense I see more and more projects that go json-ld (iso rdf/xml, turtle 
etc.) also involving storage options like mongodb iso triple/quad stores. At 
the same time people like graphql(-ld) over sparql.

Probably depends on if you come from a database vs. Web developer background as 
much as anything else.



These trends gives rise for me to some issues:

1.
If RDF* evolves bringing us better metadata options (treating statements as 
objects again) on LD side would that also give rise to a JSON-LD* next to 
Turtle*?
Or is json-ld already by itself more flexible here so that no change is needed? 
(ie is the current use of json-ld as RDF serialization an already restricted 
usage?)

I am trying to find out if turtle and hence Turtle* will have advantages over 
json-ld…


Until we see the final “standards” we cannot be 100% sure, but it seems 
unlikely one will be better than the other wrt this question. I imagine the 
criteria for choosing between them in a specific scenario is unlikely to 
change. Again, we’ll have to wait and see though as nobody knows right now.


2.
I know graphQL-LD approach as defined/demonstrated etc. by Ghent university 
(https://comunica.github.io/Article-ISWC2018-Demo-GraphQlLD/).
Is your prefixes graphql schema extension doing (functionaly) the same?

Our Web site says:

Query schemas for use with GraphQL are automatically generated from the data 
models. This includes powerful features to select, filter, aggregate, 
dynamically compute and page results. For even more power, full support for 
SPARQL expressions is available from GraphQL queries. Data updates are 
automatically validated using SHACL shapes.

So I’ll guess not exactly the same as what Ghent is doing.


If so isn’t there room for a standard graph-ql-ld variant having those 
extensions in a standard way?
Or… is such a GraphQL update already in the making (much a like json to 
json-ld)?

There is a working draft next release of GraphQL online but it does not mention 
this topic as far as I can tell. I’m not a GraphQL expert though.



3.
What will happen in future: shacl or graphql schema or both?
(knowing slide no. 20 from: 
https://www.topquadrant.

RE: [topbraid-users] json-ld question

2021-03-18 Thread &#x27;Bohms, H.M. (Michel)&#x27; via TopBraid Suite Users

Right!

I see indeed that the “webdev world only” data modelling capabilities (graphql
schema, json/json-ld, json schema, …) are limited compared to
RDFS/OWL/SHACL/SHACL-AF.

I wonder how the “LD-haters” would deal with that….guess they just code it.

Avro was new to me…( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apache_Avro, yet another
data language)
Thx for the paper!

I see also the advantages of your ‘graphql-ld’ approach over Ghent keeping the
GraphQL Schema in the picture.

I was more wondering whether graphql (and graphql schema) could use json-ld
treatment more as first class citizen in some official GraphQL-LD (GraphQL
Schema-LD) instead of just as being a special version of json… (in a sense
standardizing the kind of extensions you did)
(I see this discussion in their lists without clear answers though)

Thx michel

Dr. ir. H.M. (Michel) Bohms
Scientist Specialist
Structural Reliability

T +31 (0)88 866 31 07
M +31 (0)63 038 12 20
E michel.bo...@tno.nl<mailto:michel.bo...@tno.nl>

Location<http://www.tno.nl/locations/DTS>

[cid:image001.gif@01D71C1A.BE1ABDF0]<http://www.tno.nl/>

Van: topbraid-users@googlegroups.com Namens
Irene Polikoff
Verzonden: donderdag 18 maart 2021 16:45
Aan: topbraid-users@googlegroups.com
Onderwerp: Re: [topbraid-users] json-ld question

On Mar 18, 2021, at 10:21 AM, David Price
mailto:dpr...@topquadrant.com>> wrote:

On 18 Mar 2021, at 13:01, 'Bohms, H.M. (Michel)' via TopBraid Suite Users
mailto:topbraid-users@googlegroups.com>> wrote:

Not really TBC questions but I guess you can give the best answer.

I see popularity of json-ld rising a lot (as optimal compromise between webdev
and ld/sw world) where people might just forget about the (for them) complex
RDF conceptuals above….

JSON-LD does nothing to reduce the complex concepts that might be defined in
RDFS, OWL or SHACL data models. JSON-LD is an implementation format for
RDF-based data. Without the underlying RDF-based model there is no JSON-LD.

I interpreted Michel’s words to be about complexity of understanding/using RDF
data structures and technologies when developing applications vs making it
possible for developers to stay in the JSON word. I did not think he was
talking about data models. If one stays solely within the JSON stack, the need
for data models is addressed by things like GraphQL Schema, JSON Schema and
Avro. They are pretty simple schema languages with minimal expressivity.

I am attaching a presentation that may be useful in understanding why we
believe the combination of SHACL with GraphQL is more powerful than just
GraphQL Schema and GraphQL.

GraphQL tools and infrastructure rely on having GraphQL Schema. I am referring
to tools such as GraphiQL which we integrated into EDG to provide interactive,
syntax directed query development and she documentation capabilities expected
by the GraphQL query developers. This is why EDG autogenerates GraphQL Schema
to enable GraphQL query.

Our approach is different from Ghent University:

Ghent University implementation translates GraphQL queries into SPARQL, then
runs SPARQL over RDF data. So, this is something that could potentially sit in
front of any SPARQL endpoint. I would, however, expect the (necessary to this
approach) heavy use of OPTIONAL in the generated SPARQL to create performance
problems for SPARQL endpoints. Their use of JSON-LD is about taking advantage
of JSON-LD context to map textual ids in GraphQL e.g., “prefLabel” to the full
URI.

In this approach, there is no GraphQL Schema to drive GraphQL tools or to
provide documentation to GraphQL developers as to what they could actually
query for. The GraphQL capabilities are limited to vanilla GraphQL. GraphQL is
a small and simple language for APIs with the built-in ability to extend it and
most GraphQL implementations add such extensions. There is no way to define or
provide extended GraphQL query capabilities o

RE: [topbraid-users] json-ld question

2021-03-19 Thread &#x27;Bohms, H.M. (Michel)&#x27; via TopBraid Suite Users

Thx, VERY interesting
Quite strong statements (ora) from a semantic web principal….
At the same time I think he is not very clear in arguments why he thinks that 
way (json just being next xml)

I am more in the Newres/Gregg camp I think…

When ora says: It is never just JSON, ever”

Does he mean: people are making mistakes (like your next feedback there) or 
“there is much more non-json out there”?

And he also repeats all the time: syntax is not the issue…ok, semantics is 
bigger issue but isn’t that possible for json-ld then in rdfs/owl/shacl/json 
schema/json-ld/graphql schema… etc. (so I do not get the point)

michel




Dr. ir. H.M. (Michel) Bohms
Scientist Specialist
Structural Reliability

T +31 (0)88 866 31 07
M +31 (0)63 038 12 20
E michel.bo...@tno.nl<mailto:michel.bo...@tno.nl>

Location<http://www.tno.nl/locations/DTS>



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Van: topbraid-users@googlegroups.com  Namens 
Holger Knublauch
Verzonden: vrijdag 19 maart 2021 00:06
Aan: topbraid-users@googlegroups.com
Onderwerp: Re: [topbraid-users] json-ld question



On 2021-03-19 2:28 am, 'Bohms, H.M. (Michel)' via TopBraid Suite Users wrote:
Right!

I see indeed that the “webdev world only” data modelling capabilities (graphql 
schema, json/json-ld, json schema, …) are limited compared to 
RDFS/OWL/SHACL/SHACL-AF.

I wonder how the “LD-haters”

https://twitter.com/oralassila/status/1364946776252420103

Holger


would deal with that….guess they just code it.

Avro was new to me…( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apache_Avro, yet another 
data language)
Thx for the paper!

I see also the advantages of your ‘graphql-ld’ approach over Ghent keeping the  
GraphQL Schema in the picture.

I was more wondering whether graphql (and graphql schema) could use json-ld 
treatment more as first class citizen in some official GraphQL-LD (GraphQL 
Schema-LD)  instead of just as being a special version of json… (in a sense 
standardizing the kind of extensions you did)
(I see this discussion in their lists without clear answers though)

Thx michel




Dr. ir. H.M. (Michel) Bohms
Scientist Specialist
Structural Reliability

T +31 (0)88 866 31 07
M +31 (0)63 038 12 20
E michel.bo...@tno.nl<mailto:michel.bo...@tno.nl>

Location<http://www.tno.nl/locations/DTS>



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Van: topbraid-users@googlegroups.com<mailto:topbraid-users@googlegroups.com> 
<mailto:topbraid-users@googlegroups.com> 
Namens Irene Polikoff
Verzonden: donderdag 18 maart 2021 16:45
Aan: topbraid-users@googlegroups.com<mailto:topbraid-users@googlegroups.com>
Onderwerp: Re: [topbraid-users] json-ld question





On Mar 18, 2021, at 10:21 AM, David Price 
mailto:dpr...@topquadrant.com>> wrote:





On 18 Mar 2021, at 13:01, 'Bohms, H.M. (Michel)' via TopBraid Suite Users 
mailto:topbraid-users@googlegroups.com>> wrote:

Not really TBC questions but I guess you can give the best answer.

I see popularity of json-ld rising a lot (as optimal compromise between webdev 
and ld/sw world) where people might just forget about the (for them) complex 
RDF conceptuals above….

JSON-LD does nothing to reduce the complex concepts that might be defined in 
RDFS, OWL or SHACL data models.  JSON-LD is an implementation format for 
RDF-based data. Without the underlying RDF-based model there is no JSON-LD.

I interpreted Michel’s words to be about complexity of understanding/using RDF 
data structures and technologies when developing applications vs making it 
possible for developers to stay in the JSON word. I did not think he was 
talking about data models. If one stays solely within the JSON stack, the need 
for data models is addressed by things like GraphQL Schema, JSON Schema and 
Avro. They are pretty simple schema languages with minimal expressivity.

I am attaching a presentation that may be useful in understanding why we 
believe the combination of SHACL with GraphQL is more powerful than just 
GraphQL Schema and GraphQL.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"TopBraid

RE: [topbraid-users] json-ld question

2021-03-19 Thread &#x27;Bohms, H.M. (Michel)&#x27; via TopBraid Suite Users

Thx David and Holger

Your views really put things in perspective!

My conclusion at least like:
worlds come together syntactically but this is only a practical issue.
Semantically they are (and probably will stay) worlds apart with LD having the 
compat. Edge (basis in math/logic/grpahs)

In that sense I can now more clearly see TQ following the best path…

michel



Dr. ir. H.M. (Michel) Bohms
Scientist Specialist
Structural Reliability

T +31 (0)88 866 31 07
M +31 (0)63 038 12 20
E michel.bo...@tno.nl<mailto:michel.bo...@tno.nl>

Location<http://www.tno.nl/locations/DTS>



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Van: topbraid-users@googlegroups.com  Namens 
David Price
Verzonden: vrijdag 19 maart 2021 09:29
Aan: topbraid-users@googlegroups.com
Onderwerp: Re: [topbraid-users] json-ld question




On 19 Mar 2021, at 07:25, 'Bohms, H.M. (Michel)' via TopBraid Suite Users 
mailto:topbraid-users@googlegroups.com>> wrote:

Thx, VERY interesting
Quite strong statements (ora) from a semantic web principal….
At the same time I think he is not very clear in arguments why he thinks that 
way (json just being next xml)

I imagine it is because they are both only modelling *data structures* in a 
narrow context. People think they are doing “data modelling” or even modelling 
semantics, but they are not. JSON schema is modelling JSON data structures, so 
JSON Schema is like using XSDs. For XSDs, people used to get very confused 
because their tools produced nice diagrams that looked at bit like UML, for 
example. However, they were actually *nothing* like UML because all they 
modelled was the structure of XML and the only “meaning” they conveyed was 
containment, attribute, ID and data value. I would get dragged into consulting 
engagements in a previous job to explain this to them - Model your data using 
better languages (e.g. UML) and then implement it in some technology (e.g. 
XML/XSDs). If you do otherwise it will often eventually come back and bite you.



I am more in the Newres/Gregg camp I think…

When ora says: It is never just JSON, ever”

Does he mean: people are making mistakes (like your next feedback there) or 
“there is much more non-json out there”?

And he also repeats all the time: syntax is not the issue…ok, semantics is 
bigger issue but isn’t that possible for json-ld then in rdfs/owl/shacl/json 
schema/json-ld/graphql schema… etc. (so I do not get the point)

I imagine something like this:

In the LD world, OWL has an underlying theory (sets and logic) and SHACL has an 
underlying theory (Graph Theory). JSON-LD has Javascript under it, on its own 
what it specifies are Javascript data structures with some RDF-based patterns 
so you can simulate say RDFS with it. It’s not better or worse than Python, 
Java, etc. on that front. It’s big advantage is that it’s great for 
browser-based apps. However, that does not mean it’s great for anything else on 
its own.

Technologists who support a “data centric” view are trying to make data an 
“asset” that organisations own and manage. If you are smart about that then 
data => knowledge. Supporting that means getting data out of any app or 
programming language. They argue that JSON-LD on its own doesn’t really do that.

Cheers,
David



michel




Dr. ir. H.M. (Michel) Bohms
Scientist Specialist
Structural Reliability

T +31 (0)88 866 31 07
M +31 (0)63 038 12 20
E michel.bo...@tno.nl<mailto:michel.bo...@tno.nl>

Location<http://www.tno.nl/locations/DTS>



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Van: topbraid-users@googlegroups.com<mailto:topbraid-users@googlegroups.com> 
mailto:topbraid-users@googlegroups.com>> 
Namens Holger Knublauch
Verzonden: vrijdag 19 maart 2021 00:06
Aan: topbraid-users@googlegroups.com<mailto:topbraid-users@googlegroups.com>
Onderwerp: Re: [topbraid-users] json-ld question


On 2021-03-19 2:28 am, 'Bohms, H.M. (Michel)' via TopBraid Suite Users wrote:
Right!

I see indeed that the “webdev world only” data modelling capabilities (graphql 
schema, json/json-ld, json schema, …) are limited compared to 
RDFS/OWL/SHACL/SHACL-AF.

I wonder h

RE: [topbraid-users] json-ld question

2021-03-19 Thread &#x27;Bohms, H.M. (Michel)&#x27; via TopBraid Suite Users

Final remark:

If you have some good refs on the difference between structure & semantics, 
very welcome!

Personally I do not see this as two poles really…both deal with defining 
possibilities and impossibilities in your data. In that sense an XSD also 
covers semantics. And a json-ld spec on schema level also covers semantics. 
Clearly math/logic/graph-based SW-semantics in RDF/RDFS/OWL/SHACL-covers much 
MORE semantics.
In that sense I think the discussions on this aspect are a bit unnecessary 
polarized…..it feels more like different degrees of semantics….

But maybe there are some other essential differences that I do not see yet…..



Dr. ir. H.M. (Michel) Bohms
Scientist Specialist
Structural Reliability

T +31 (0)88 866 31 07
M +31 (0)63 038 12 20
E michel.bo...@tno.nl<mailto:michel.bo...@tno.nl>

Location<http://www.tno.nl/locations/DTS>



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Van: 'Bohms, H.M. (Michel)' via TopBraid Suite Users 

Verzonden: vrijdag 19 maart 2021 09:58
Aan: topbraid-users@googlegroups.com
Onderwerp: RE: [topbraid-users] json-ld question

Thx David and Holger

Your views really put things in perspective!

My conclusion at least like:
worlds come together syntactically but this is only a practical issue.
Semantically they are (and probably will stay) worlds apart with LD having the 
compat. Edge (basis in math/logic/grpahs)

In that sense I can now more clearly see TQ following the best path…

michel



Dr. ir. H.M. (Michel) Bohms
Scientist Specialist
Structural Reliability

T +31 (0)88 866 31 07
M +31 (0)63 038 12 20
E michel.bo...@tno.nl<mailto:michel.bo...@tno.nl>

Location<http://www.tno.nl/locations/DTS>



[cid:image001.gif@01D71CAF.D9886C50]<http://www.tno.nl/>

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Van: topbraid-users@googlegroups.com<mailto:topbraid-users@googlegroups.com> 
mailto:topbraid-users@googlegroups.com>> 
Namens David Price
Verzonden: vrijdag 19 maart 2021 09:29
Aan: topbraid-users@googlegroups.com<mailto:topbraid-users@googlegroups.com>
Onderwerp: Re: [topbraid-users] json-ld question



On 19 Mar 2021, at 07:25, 'Bohms, H.M. (Michel)' via TopBraid Suite Users 
mailto:topbraid-users@googlegroups.com>> wrote:

Thx, VERY interesting
Quite strong statements (ora) from a semantic web principal….
At the same time I think he is not very clear in arguments why he thinks that 
way (json just being next xml)

I imagine it is because they are both only modelling *data structures* in a 
narrow context. People think they are doing “data modelling” or even modelling 
semantics, but they are not. JSON schema is modelling JSON data structures, so 
JSON Schema is like using XSDs. For XSDs, people used to get very confused 
because their tools produced nice diagrams that looked at bit like UML, for 
example. However, they were actually *nothing* like UML because all they 
modelled was the structure of XML and the only “meaning” they conveyed was 
containment, attribute, ID and data value. I would get dragged into consulting 
engagements in a previous job to explain this to them - Model your data using 
better languages (e.g. UML) and then implement it in some technology (e.g. 
XML/XSDs). If you do otherwise it will often eventually come back and bite you.


I am more in the Newres/Gregg camp I think…

When ora says: It is never just JSON, ever”

Does he mean: people are making mistakes (like your next feedback there) or 
“there is much more non-json out there”?

And he also repeats all the time: syntax is not the issue…ok, semantics is 
bigger issue but isn’t that possible for json-ld then in rdfs/owl/shacl/json 
schema/json-ld/graphql schema… etc. (so I do not get the point)

I imagine something like this:

In the LD world, OWL has an underlying theory (sets and logic) and SHACL has an 
underlying theory (Graph Theory). JSON-LD has Javascript under it, on its own 
what it specifies are Javascript data structures with some RDF-based patterns 
so you can simulate say RDFS with it. It’s not better or worse than Python, 
Java, etc. on that front. It’s big advantage is that it’s great for 
brow

RE: [topbraid-users] json-ld question

2021-03-19 Thread &#x27;Bohms, H.M. (Michel)&#x27; via TopBraid Suite Users

I fully agree that adding generic upper ontologies increase semantic meaning of 
the stuff below specialized.
(we do that ourselves in our cen European Semantic Modelling & Linking standard 
by providing a “top level model” covering PhysicalObject, Event, State, 
Activity etcetc.)

(But..) here I just wanted to focus on the language level

So say: XSD versus OWL or, graphql schema versus shacl

The second seems quite semantically compatible (given your 1-to-1 link in your 
tooling).

Lets focus on the first.

What does an OWL ontology provide essentially more than an XSD schema.

Yes owl defines semantics and xsd defines ‘just’ structure following defs below 
but…what does it mean exactly?

When I define a elementtype in xsd or class in owl..both indicate a declaration 
of a thing of interest.
Attributes and subelements in xsd give further meaning like datatype props and 
object props in owl.

Is it the fact that owl defines the restrictions and xsd cannot that is 
distinguishing the “structure” from the “semantics”?
(guess not because datatypes also limit values and they are on both sides…)

Or is it the fact that xsd misses the underlying logic entailment?

Or …. ???

THAT are the kind of arguments I am looking for…….

(of course Wikipedia is a high level source here but not really giving precise 
answers…)





Dr. ir. H.M. (Michel) Bohms
Scientist Specialist
Structural Reliability

T +31 (0)88 866 31 07
M +31 (0)63 038 12 20
E michel.bo...@tno.nl<mailto:michel.bo...@tno.nl>

Location<http://www.tno.nl/locations/DTS>



[cid:image001.gif@01D71CC0.7BC14040]<http://www.tno.nl/>

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Van: topbraid-users@googlegroups.com  Namens 
David Price
Verzonden: vrijdag 19 maart 2021 12:26
Aan: topbraid-users@googlegroups.com
Onderwerp: Re: [topbraid-users] json-ld question




On 19 Mar 2021, at 10:06, 'Bohms, H.M. (Michel)' via TopBraid Suite Users 
mailto:topbraid-users@googlegroups.com>> wrote:

Final remark:

If you have some good refs on the difference between structure & semantics, 
very welcome!

Even Wikipedia is your friend and then just read the specs themselves  - see 
below.



Personally I do not see this as two poles really…both deal with defining 
possibilities and impossibilities in your data. In that sense an XSD also 
covers semantics.
And a json-ld spec on schema level also covers semantics. Clearly 
math/logic/graph-based SW-semantics in RDF/RDFS/OWL/SHACL-covers much MORE 
semantics.
In that sense I think the discussions on this aspect are a bit unnecessary 
polarized…..it feels more like different degrees of semantics….

But maybe there are some other essential differences that I do not see yet…..


XML & XSDs are syntax/structure, that’s different from semantics.  Using your 
phrasing - one says what’s possible wrt storing your data, the other says what 
data is possible and how that data is to be interpreted.

Syntax: the set of rules that defines the combinations of symbols that are 
considered to be correctly structured statements or expressions in that language

Semantics:

  *   (general) is the study of meaning, reference, or truth;
  *   (logic) the study of the interpretations of formal and natural languages;
  *   (programming) is the field concerned with the rigorous mathematical study 
of the meaning of programming languages. It does so by evaluating the meaning 
of syntactically valid strings defined by a specific programming language, 
showing the computation involved.

XML/XSD:

The first sentence on the W3C XML Schema page says “An XML Schema is a language 
for expressing constraints about XML documents.”

XML says: Extensible Markup Language describes a class of data objects called 
XML documents and partially describes the behavior of computer programs which 
process them. XML is an application profile or restricted form of SGML, the 
Standard Generalized Markup Language [ISO 8879]. By construction, XML documents 
are conforming SGML documents.

XML documents are made up of storage units called entities, which contain 
either parsed or unparsed data. Parsed data is made up of characters, some of 
which form character data, and some of which form markup. Markup encodes a 
description of the document's storage layout and logical structure. XML 
provides a mechanism to impose constraints on the storage layout and logical 
structure.

Clearly, XSDs specify exactly zero semantics as it’s about “constraints” on 
“storage units” and “markup of storage layout”.  I’m sure there are blogs 
claiming XSDs have “meaning” aka semantics,

Re: [topbraid-users] TBCME 7 multiple errors on opening

2021-03-26 Thread &#x27;Bohms, H.M. (Michel)&#x27; via TopBraid Suite Users

I had it yesterday again having thought i undoubled...wiil recheck and send log
for info.
Michel

Op 26 mrt. 2021 00:13 schreef Holger Knublauch :

I suspect this is the same error that Michel Bohms had reported on the same
mailing list a few days ago. This is a regression in TBC that we will fix ASAP.

Meanwhile, if your existing workspace contains more than one graph/file with
the same base URI, it would crash at start-up and produce these many alarming
errors. Please go through the workspace and check whether two files have the
same base URI. This may for example happen if you have copied the same file
with two names, or saved the same graph both as Turtle and RDF/XML.

Holger

On 2021-03-26 12:01 am, Tim Jones wrote:
Hi

Have just installed TBCME 7, but when I open it I get a stream of error in the
UI:
e.g.
Plug-in org.topbraidcomposer.navigation was unable to load class
org.topbraidcomposer.navigation.subclassestree.SubClassesTreeView.

Plug-in "org.topbraidcomposer.navigation" was unable to instantiate class
"org.topbraidcomposer.navigation.propertiestree.PropertiesTreeView".

and in the log:
[javaw_gXRaDzPucf.png]

I unzipped the distribution into a clean folder and used my existing workspace
folder (from the previous version), which warned me that it would be upgraded.

Is there something that I have missed or done wrong?

Thanks,

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RE: [topbraid-users] TBCME 7 multiple errors on opening

2021-03-26 Thread &#x27;Bohms, H.M. (Michel)&#x27; via TopBraid Suite Users

It was indeed some leftover doubling on my side:
[cid:image001.png@01D7221D.D49A7FD0]

Often the case when you have alternative serialisations for the same ontology.

For the time being I’ll use the 7beta which starts ok.

Gr michel

Dr. ir. H.M. (Michel) Bohms
Scientist Specialist
Structural Reliability

T +31 (0)88 866 31 07
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Location

[cid:image002.gif@01D7221D.D49A7FD0]

Van: topbraid-users@googlegroups.com Namens
Holger Knublauch
Verzonden: vrijdag 26 maart 2021 00:13
Aan: topbraid-users@googlegroups.com
Onderwerp: Re: [topbraid-users] TBCME 7 multiple errors on opening

I suspect this is the same error that Michel Bohms had reported on the same
mailing list a few days ago. This is a regression in TBC that we will fix ASAP.

Holger

On 2021-03-26 12:01 am, Tim Jones wrote:
Hi

Plug-in "org.topbraidcomposer.navigation" was unable to instantiate class
"org.topbraidcomposer.navigation.propertiestree.PropertiesTreeView".

and in the log:

I unzipped the distribution into a clean folder and used my existing workspace
folder (from the previous version), which warned me that it would be upgraded.

Is there something that I have missed or done wrong?

Thanks,

Tim
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[topbraid-users] rdfs+shacl issue

2021-03-26 Thread &#x27;Bohms, H.M. (Michel)&#x27; via TopBraid Suite Users

I now have often:

[cid:image001.png@01D72226.14A5C9B0]


But I want to be more strict SHACL: RDFS+SHACL only using owl for 
owl:ontology/owl:import actually.

What can happen to the owl:unionOf within sh:class in that case?

Can I use some shacl counterpart?
Or if not, do I have to delete this constraint?

Thx Michel




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Structural Reliability

T +31 (0)88 866 31 07
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RE: [topbraid-users] rdfs+shacl issue

2021-03-26 Thread &#x27;Bohms, H.M. (Michel)&#x27; via TopBraid Suite Users

Thx

Just checking

No counterpoart in rdfs-only, right?

So in:

nen2660:consistsOf
  a rdf:Property ;
  rdfs:domain [
  a owl:Class ;
  owl:unionOf (
  nen2660:RealObject
  nen2660:Mixture
  nen2660:MatterPortion
) ;
] ;

For rdfs-only variant I can only delete the domain spec, right?

thx



Dr. ir. H.M. (Michel) Bohms
Scientist Specialist
Structural Reliability

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Van: topbraid-users@googlegroups.com  Namens 
Holger Knublauch
Verzonden: vrijdag 26 maart 2021 10:13
Aan: topbraid-users@googlegroups.com
Onderwerp: Re: [topbraid-users] rdfs+shacl issue



On 26/03/2021 6:55 pm, 'Bohms, H.M. (Michel)' via TopBraid Suite Users wrote:
I now have often:

[cid:image002.png@01D72230.105F88F0]


But I want to be more strict SHACL: RDFS+SHACL only using owl for 
owl:ontology/owl:import actually.

What can happen to the owl:unionOf within sh:class in that case?

Can I use some shacl counterpart?
Or if not, do I have to delete this constraint?

Yes this should be deleted. It was probably created by a conversion from OWL to 
SHACL, which wasn't aware of bnodes.

Use something like

... sh:property [
sh:path :hasPart ;
sh:or (
[ sh:class :PhysicalObject ]
[ sh:class rdfs:Container ]
)
]

which is equivalent/similar to unionOf.

Holger



Thx Michel




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Scientist Specialist
Structural Reliability

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[topbraid-users] best practise name space in multiple languages?

2021-04-06 Thread &#x27;Bohms, H.M. (Michel)&#x27; via TopBraid Suite Users

In case I have the same specification on different modelling levels:

* Skos
* Rdfs
* Rdfs+owl
* Rdfs+shacl

Is there some best practice for the name space?

(compare same name space for different serializations but now for different
languages used...).

I now have ie:

# baseURI: https://w3id.org/def/nen2660-rdfs

But I got the comment that just:
# baseURI: https://w3id.org/def/nen2660

was preferred.

But then I have 4 variants (actually 12: all in rdf/xml, turtle and json-ld)
specifying for the same name space.

Thx for advice,
Michel

Dr. ir. H.M. (Michel) Bohms
Scientist Specialist
Structural Reliability

T +31 (0)88 866 31 07
M +31 (0)63 038 12 20
E michel.bo...@tno.nl

Location

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RE: [topbraid-users] best practise name space in multiple languages?

2021-04-06 Thread &#x27;Bohms, H.M. (Michel)&#x27; via TopBraid Suite Users

imports will make sure that declarations are not repeated across 
files, and therefore don’t risk running out of sync, e.g. if someone changes 
the RDFS classes only in one file.


Exactly! Maintenance is always a concern - and most people ignore it until it 
causes a huge problem later in life (unfortunately, too often in someone else’s 
life).


I don’t know enough about how the SKOS version is different to comment on that. 
I would find it rather confusing if a resource is a class in one graph but a 
SKOS concept in another.

The case where I regularly see this is if the artefact being defined is “master 
data” or a “reference data library”. If the OWL is really just a large 
hierarchy of classes with annotation properties and no restrictions, then I 
have seen those be published as OWL and as SKOS with the same URIs. That does 
mean you should not mix the two, of course.


ØHmmm not mixt: aren they just multiple typed: ie something is a skos 
concept, an rdfs class and a shack shape at the same time…or will that result 
in problems..?

Scenarios where either language might be used include supporting 
semantic/faceted search and where a class in an ontology has a property like 
“external classification” or “_ category” or “_group” (e.g. the property 
range is almost just an enumeration).



The topic of RDF/XML vs Turtle etc is another dimension, typically solved using 
HTTP content negotiation. All serialisations would be accessible from the same 
server URLs yet the server would return different results depending on what 
accept header the client requests.

Holger



On 6 Apr 2021, at 6:20 pm, 'Bohms, H.M. (Michel)' via TopBraid Suite Users 
mailto:topbraid-users@googlegroups.com>> wrote:

In case I have the same specification on different modelling levels:

  *   Skos
  *   Rdfs
  *   Rdfs+owl
  *   Rdfs+shacl

Is there some best practice  for the name space?

Question - Does the RDFS/OWL import and build on the RDFS? That seems logical 
to me so just wondering. Even the SHACL could import and build on the RDFS (and 
perhaps even the RDFS/OWL). That way the “class” would have the same URI all 
the time and you’d just be saying more/different things about it as the 
languages allow more to be said and the rationale for the different namespaces 
might be clarified a bit.


ØYES, that is what I would like….

ØPeople start in skos

ØExtend the skost concept in rdfs

ØExtend further in shacl for the constraints

ØAll about the same bridge

ØSo if I want that…what name space do I need for the concepts, classes and 
shapes (for the same thing)

Cheers,
David



(compare same name space for different serializations but now for different 
languages used…).

I now have ie:

# baseURI: https://w3id.org/def/nen2660-rdfs

But I got the comment that just:
# baseURI: https://w3id.org/def/nen2660

was preferred.

But then I have 4 variants (actually 12: all in rdf/xml, turtle and json-ld) 
specifying for the same name space.

Thx for advice,
Michel




Dr. ir. H.M. (Michel) Bohms
Scientist Specialist
Structural Reliability

T +31 (0)88 866 31 07
M +31 (0)63 038 12 20
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RE: [topbraid-users] best practise name space in multiple languages?

2021-04-09 Thread &#x27;Bohms, H.M. (Michel)&#x27; via TopBraid Suite Users


Dear Holger

One more question on this.


  *   Indeed serialization is other dimension related to server negotiation etc.
  *   Skos variant is special: totally different beasts (instance versus class 
etc.) so indeed separate namespace/prefix (we dicided for rdfs:isDefinedBy to 
make links between them; in practice you see many other relations used).
  *   Lets focus on name spaces for rdfs/owl/shacl variants, let’s assume 
variant: owl & shacl both importing rdfs (not: shacl importing owl)
  *   Even more focus: rdfs & shacl only (forget about owl for now)
Below you propose a different prefix/ns for the shacl-variant (nen2660-shacl).

Now the question. Would it be somehow possible to use the same name space for 
both rdfs and shacl?
(think you state that too below…)

So having two files/graphs having the same name space, one stating the rdfs 
stuff, the other the shacl.

Then I guess you need a mechanism to merge the two files/graphs other then 
owl:import (imports does not make sense since it is logical and the ontology 
would import itself)?

Thx again (for your patience…),
michel





Dr. ir. H.M. (Michel) Bohms
Scientist Specialist
Structural Reliability

T +31 (0)88 866 31 07
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Van: topbraid-users@googlegroups.com  Namens 
Holger Knublauch
Verzonden: dinsdag 6 april 2021 13:22
Aan: topbraid-users@googlegroups.com
Onderwerp: Re: [topbraid-users] best practise name space in multiple languages?

Hi Michel,

First we should make sure that the users of your models understand the 
distinction between namespaces and graph URIs. You can of course use the same 
namespace (e.g., https://w3id.org/def/nen2660#<https://w3id.org/def/nen2660>) 
in multiple graphs. What you are probably referring to is the Graph URI under 
which the models will be downloaded from on the Web.

For the RDFS part, assuming this merely declares classes, properties and their 
relationships, I suggest they should be found at the URI that is like the 
namespace (except maybe without the #). Then, the OWL version could be at a URI 
ending with nen2660-owl and the SHACL version could be at nen2660-shacl, and 
both would have owl:imports statements to the RDFS Graph URI. OWL is typically 
pretty strict about what is allowed in the models, e.g. to preserve the OWL DL 
logic. On the other hand, SHACL is quite relaxed if a graph also contains OWL 
axioms - they will simply be ignored. So in theory the SHACL graph may 
owl:import the OWL version too.

Using owl:imports will make sure that declarations are not repeated across 
files, and therefore don’t risk running out of sync, e.g. if someone changes 
the RDFS classes only in one file.

I don’t know enough about how the SKOS version is different to comment on that. 
I would find it rather confusing if a resource is a class in one graph but a 
SKOS concept in another.

The topic of RDF/XML vs Turtle etc is another dimension, typically solved using 
HTTP content negotiation. All serialisations would be accessible from the same 
server URLs yet the server would return different results depending on what 
accept header the client requests.

Holger



On 6 Apr 2021, at 6:20 pm, 'Bohms, H.M. (Michel)' via TopBraid Suite Users 
mailto:topbraid-users@googlegroups.com>> wrote:

In case I have the same specification on different modelling levels:

  *   Skos
  *   Rdfs
  *   Rdfs+owl
  *   Rdfs+shacl

Is there some best practice  for the name space?

(compare same name space for different serializations but now for different 
languages used…).

I now have ie:

# baseURI: https://w3id.org/def/nen2660-rdfs

But I got the comment that just:
# baseURI: https://w3id.org/def/nen2660

was preferred.

But then I have 4 variants (actually 12: all in rdf/xml, turtle and json-ld) 
specifying for the same name space.

Thx for advice,
Michel




Dr. ir. H.M. (Michel) Bohms
Scientist Specialist
Structural Reliability

T +31 (0)88 866 31 07
M +31 (0)63 038 12 20
E michel.bo...@tno.nl<mailto:michel.bo...@tno.nl>

Location<http://www.tno.nl/locations/DTS>



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RE: [topbraid-users] best practise name space in multiple languages?

2021-04-09 Thread &#x27;Bohms, H.M. (Michel)&#x27; via TopBraid Suite Users

Ok,….my misunderstanding becomes clearer…😊

Typically i used up till now owl:imports referencing other name spaces

Do I understand now that the import can also be a (sub)graph/file saying 
something about a name space?

If both rdfs and shacl variant have name space say https://w3id.org/nen2660/def 
, what would the owl:imports statement look like in the shacl variant file?


Guess I used up till now some assumptions on name space uri versus graph uri 
that I now better have to differentiate….




Dr. ir. H.M. (Michel) Bohms
Scientist Specialist
Structural Reliability

T +31 (0)88 866 31 07
M +31 (0)63 038 12 20
E michel.bo...@tno.nl<mailto:michel.bo...@tno.nl>

Location<http://www.tno.nl/locations/DTS>



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Van: topbraid-users@googlegroups.com  Namens 
Holger Knublauch
Verzonden: vrijdag 9 april 2021 10:42
Aan: topbraid-users@googlegroups.com
Onderwerp: Re: [topbraid-users] best practise name space in multiple languages?



On 9/04/2021 6:31 pm, 'Bohms, H.M. (Michel)' via TopBraid Suite Users wrote:

Dear Holger

One more question on this.


  1.  Indeed serialization is other dimension related to server negotiation etc.
  2.  Skos variant is special: totally different beasts (instance versus class 
etc.) so indeed separate namespace/prefix (we dicided for rdfs:isDefinedBy to 
make links between them; in practice you see many other relations used).
  3.  Lets focus on name spaces for rdfs/owl/shacl variants, let’s assume 
variant: owl & shacl both importing rdfs (not: shacl importing owl)
  4.  Even more focus: rdfs & shacl only (forget about owl for now)
Below you propose a different prefix/ns for the shacl-variant (nen2660-shacl).

Now the question. Would it be somehow possible to use the same name space for 
both rdfs and shacl?
(think you state that too below…)

So having two files/graphs having the same name space, one stating the rdfs 
stuff, the other the shacl.
Yes we do this in our EDG namespace, which is split across dozens of files, but 
they all declare resources from the edg: namespace. Namespaces and graph URIs 
are relatively separate topics, so any graph can declare resources from any 
namespace.


Then I guess you need a mechanism to merge the two files/graphs other then 
owl:import (imports does not make sense since it is logical and the ontology 
would import itself)?

I don't understand this argument - we use owl:imports between the edg: files 
without problems.

Holger



Thx again (for your patience…),
michel





Dr. ir. H.M. (Michel) Bohms
Scientist Specialist
Structural Reliability

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Van: topbraid-users@googlegroups.com<mailto:topbraid-users@googlegroups.com> 
<mailto:topbraid-users@googlegroups.com> 
Namens Holger Knublauch
Verzonden: dinsdag 6 april 2021 13:22
Aan: topbraid-users@googlegroups.com<mailto:topbraid-users@googlegroups.com>
Onderwerp: Re: [topbraid-users] best practise name space in multiple languages?

Hi Michel,

First we should make sure that the users of your models understand the 
distinction between namespaces and graph URIs. You can of course use the same 
namespace (e.g., https://w3id.org/def/nen2660#<https://w3id.org/def/nen2660>) 
in multiple graphs. What you are probably referring to is the Graph URI under 
which the models will be downloaded from on the Web.

For the RDFS part, assuming this merely declares classes, properties and their 
relationships, I suggest they should be found at the URI that is like the 
namespace (except maybe without the #). Then, the OWL version could be at a URI 
ending with nen2660-owl and the SHACL version could be at nen2660-shacl, and 
both would have owl:imports statements to the RDFS Graph URI. OWL is typically 
pretty strict about what is allowed in the models, e.g. to preserve the OWL DL 
logic. On the other hand, SHACL is quite relaxed if a graph also contains OWL 
axioms

RE: [topbraid-users] best practise name space in multiple languages?

2021-04-12 Thread &#x27;Bohms, H.M. (Michel)&#x27; via TopBraid Suite Users

Thx David /Irene for the explanations…

I never had the need to clearly differentiate the 2 types of uri’s.

An important ‘exception’ seems indeed when you want to somehow combine 
complementary rdfs/owl/shacl stuff for the same logical thing in different 
graphs (sep. of concerns).

I am writing a small piece of text on this for our nen2660 spec (that will be 
reused for cen tc442 SML).
I hope you can have a quick look soon to see if I understood you right.

Thx a lot! michel



Dr. ir. H.M. (Michel) Bohms
Scientist Specialist
Structural Reliability

T +31 (0)88 866 31 07
M +31 (0)63 038 12 20
E michel.bo...@tno.nl<mailto:michel.bo...@tno.nl>

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Van: topbraid-users@googlegroups.com  Namens 
Irene Polikoff
Verzonden: vrijdag 9 april 2021 14:13
Aan: topbraid-users@googlegroups.com
Onderwerp: Re: [topbraid-users] best practise name space in multiple languages?

Yes, exactly.

To simplify it even more:


  *   There are graphs and they have identity - graph URI. owl:imports 
statements refer to the graph URIs.
  *   A graph contains a set of triple statements about some resources. These 
resources also have identity - URIs of resources.
  *   URIs are formed by combining some namespace with a local name.
  *   There is no requirement for the namespace used to form the URI of a graph 
to be the same as the namespace(s) used to form URIs of resources that 
participate in the triple statements in a graph.

 *   In many cases, it is a good practice for resources to use the same 
namespace as the graph - at least resources that are subjects in the triples 
contained in a graph.
 *   However, there are also significant exceptions and you can see 
examples of this all over the place.


On Apr 9, 2021, at 6:32 AM, David Price 
mailto:dpr...@topquadrant.com>> wrote:

Hi Michel,

I


On 9 Apr 2021, at 09:52, 'Bohms, H.M. (Michel)' via TopBraid Suite Users 
mailto:topbraid-users@googlegroups.com>> wrote:

Ok,….my misunderstanding becomes clearer…😊

Typically i used up till now owl:imports referencing other name spaces

Do I understand now that the import can also be a (sub)graph/file saying 
something about a name space?

If both rdfs and shacl variant have name space say https://w3id.org/nen2660/def 
, what would the owl:imports statement look like in the shacl variant file?

Guess I used up till now some assumptions on name space uri versus graph uri 
that I now better have to differentiate….


I’ll simply a bit, but a good way to think about it is that the concept of the 
named graph (with name being a Graph URI) is actually what owl:imports 
references.  A named graph may define classes/properties that use any number of 
namespaces, made simpler by using prefixes for the namespaces.

A named graph with Graph URI like https://w3id.org/nen2660/shapes is not the 
same thing as a concept of Namespace URI like 
https://w3id.org/nen2660#<https://w3id.org/nen2660>.   From the Turtle Primer:

prefix rdfs:, namespace URI: 
http://www.w3.org/2000/01/rdf-schema#<http://www.w3.org/2000/01/rdf-schema>

Note that it calls the non-local name of a full URI a "namespace URI” so I 
should probably be doing that too.

Technically, there is zero relationship between the graph URI and namespace 
URI. The named graph can be http://anything.at.all<http://anything.at.all/> and 
define classes and properties using http://michel.com#<http://michel.com/> as 
the namespace URI. That much difference may confuse people, so it’s not usually 
recommended but it’s fine technically.

All the classes/properties of interest can then use the same namespace URI, 
even if they are managed in different named graphs

So,  
https://w3id.org/nen2660<https://w3id.org/nen2660/Thing1>#Class1<https://w3id.org/nen2660/Thing1>
 an rdfs:Class can be in  https://w3id.org/nen2660/schema graph and  
https://w3id.org/nen2660<https://w3id.org/nen2660/Thing2>#NodeShape2<https://w3id.org/nen2660/Thing2>
 a SHACL NodeShape can be in  https://w3id.org/nen2660/shapes graph.

Both graphs as TTL would state

@prefix nen2660: <https://w3id.org/nen2660#<https://w3id.org/nen2660>> .

so you’d see nen2660:Class1 and nen2660:NodeShape2 and so things are is 
consistent wrt writing SPARQL queries, for example, over the schema/shapes and 
over the data.

Then https://w3id.org/nen2660/shapes owl:imports  
https://w3id.org/nen2660/schema  so NodeShape2 can refer to Cla

RE: [topbraid-users] best practise name space in multiple languages?

2021-04-12 Thread &#x27;Bohms, H.M. (Michel)&#x27; via TopBraid Suite Users

I forgot, one more subissue wrt the naming of the different graph uri’s 
involved:

https://w3id.org/nen2660/rdfs

versus

https://w3id.org/nen2660-rdfs
the latter also corresponding to the filename: nen2660-schema.ttl

any principle difference/pros/cons?

thx



Dr. ir. H.M. (Michel) Bohms
Scientist Specialist
Structural Reliability

T +31 (0)88 866 31 07
M +31 (0)63 038 12 20
E michel.bo...@tno.nl<mailto:michel.bo...@tno.nl>

Location<http://www.tno.nl/locations/DTS>



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Van: topbraid-users@googlegroups.com  Namens 
David Price
Verzonden: vrijdag 9 april 2021 12:33
Aan: topbraid-users@googlegroups.com
Onderwerp: Re: [topbraid-users] best practise name space in multiple languages?

Hi Michel,

I


On 9 Apr 2021, at 09:52, 'Bohms, H.M. (Michel)' via TopBraid Suite Users 
mailto:topbraid-users@googlegroups.com>> wrote:

Ok,….my misunderstanding becomes clearer…😊

Typically i used up till now owl:imports referencing other name spaces

Do I understand now that the import can also be a (sub)graph/file saying 
something about a name space?

If both rdfs and shacl variant have name space say https://w3id.org/nen2660/def 
, what would the owl:imports statement look like in the shacl variant file?

Guess I used up till now some assumptions on name space uri versus graph uri 
that I now better have to differentiate….


I’ll simply a bit, but a good way to think about it is that the concept of the 
named graph (with name being a Graph URI) is actually what owl:imports 
references.  A named graph may define classes/properties that use any number of 
namespaces, made simpler by using prefixes for the namespaces.

A named graph with Graph URI like https://w3id.org/nen2660/shapes is not the 
same thing as a concept of Namespace URI like 
https://w3id.org/nen2660#<https://w3id.org/nen2660>.   From the Turtle Primer:

prefix rdfs:, namespace URI: 
http://www.w3.org/2000/01/rdf-schema#<http://www.w3.org/2000/01/rdf-schema>

Note that it calls the non-local name of a full URI a "namespace URI” so I 
should probably be doing that too.

Technically, there is zero relationship between the graph URI and namespace 
URI. The named graph can be http://anything.at.all and define classes and 
properties using http://michel.com#<http://michel.com> as the namespace URI. 
That much difference may confuse people, so it’s not usually recommended but 
it’s fine technically.

All the classes/properties of interest can then use the same namespace URI, 
even if they are managed in different named graphs

So,  
https://w3id.org/nen2660<https://w3id.org/nen2660/Thing1>#Class1<https://w3id.org/nen2660/Thing1>
 an rdfs:Class can be in  https://w3id.org/nen2660/schema graph and  
https://w3id.org/nen2660<https://w3id.org/nen2660/Thing2>#NodeShape2<https://w3id.org/nen2660/Thing2>
 a SHACL NodeShape can be in  https://w3id.org/nen2660/shapes graph.

Both graphs as TTL would state

@prefix nen2660: <https://w3id.org/nen2660#<https://w3id.org/nen2660>> .

so you’d see nen2660:Class1 and nen2660:NodeShape2 and so things are is 
consistent wrt writing SPARQL queries, for example, over the schema/shapes and 
over the data.

Then https://w3id.org/nen2660/shapes owl:imports  
https://w3id.org/nen2660/schema  so NodeShape2 can refer to Class1.

Tooling often supports a “Default Namespace” for a graph exactly to simplify 
the separation of the Graph URI from the namespace URI.

This separation also supports versions of ontologies. So, for example named 
graphs http://standard.iso.org/mystandard/edition1 and 
http://standard.iso.org/mystandard/edition2
can both contain

http://standard.iso.org/mystandard/<http://standard.iso.org/mystandard/MyClass>MyClass<http://standard.iso.org/mystandard/MyClass>
 a rdfs:Class .

with no problem.

Cheers,
David





Dr. ir. H.M. (Michel) Bohms
Scientist Specialist
Structural Reliability

T +31 (0)88 866 31 07
M +31 (0)63 038 12 20
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Location<http://www.tno.nl/locations/DTS>



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RE: [topbraid-users] best practise name space in multiple languages?

2021-04-12 Thread &#x27;Bohms, H.M. (Michel)&#x27; via TopBraid Suite Users

Correction:

I forgot, one more subissue wrt the naming of the different graph uri’s 
involved:

https://w3id.org/nen2660/rdfs

versus

https://w3id.org/nen2660-rdfs
the latter also corresponding to the filename: nen2660-rdfs.ttl

any principle difference/pros/cons?

thx




Dr. ir. H.M. (Michel) Bohms
Scientist Specialist
Structural Reliability

T +31 (0)88 866 31 07
M +31 (0)63 038 12 20
E michel.bo...@tno.nl<mailto:michel.bo...@tno.nl>

Location<http://www.tno.nl/locations/DTS>



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Van: 'Bohms, H.M. (Michel)' via TopBraid Suite Users 

Verzonden: maandag 12 april 2021 11:36
Aan: topbraid-users@googlegroups.com
Onderwerp: RE: [topbraid-users] best practise name space in multiple languages?

I forgot, one more subissue wrt the naming of the different graph uri’s 
involved:

https://w3id.org/nen2660/rdfs

versus

https://w3id.org/nen2660-rdfs
the latter also corresponding to the filename: nen2660-schema.ttl

any principle difference/pros/cons?

thx



Dr. ir. H.M. (Michel) Bohms
Scientist Specialist
Structural Reliability

T +31 (0)88 866 31 07
M +31 (0)63 038 12 20
E michel.bo...@tno.nl<mailto:michel.bo...@tno.nl>

Location<http://www.tno.nl/locations/DTS>



[cid:image001.gif@01D72F94.0D4DB260]<http://www.tno.nl/>

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Van: topbraid-users@googlegroups.com<mailto:topbraid-users@googlegroups.com> 
mailto:topbraid-users@googlegroups.com>> 
Namens David Price
Verzonden: vrijdag 9 april 2021 12:33
Aan: topbraid-users@googlegroups.com<mailto:topbraid-users@googlegroups.com>
Onderwerp: Re: [topbraid-users] best practise name space in multiple languages?

Hi Michel,

I

On 9 Apr 2021, at 09:52, 'Bohms, H.M. (Michel)' via TopBraid Suite Users 
mailto:topbraid-users@googlegroups.com>> wrote:

Ok,….my misunderstanding becomes clearer…😊

Typically i used up till now owl:imports referencing other name spaces

Do I understand now that the import can also be a (sub)graph/file saying 
something about a name space?

If both rdfs and shacl variant have name space say https://w3id.org/nen2660/def 
, what would the owl:imports statement look like in the shacl variant file?

Guess I used up till now some assumptions on name space uri versus graph uri 
that I now better have to differentiate….


I’ll simply a bit, but a good way to think about it is that the concept of the 
named graph (with name being a Graph URI) is actually what owl:imports 
references.  A named graph may define classes/properties that use any number of 
namespaces, made simpler by using prefixes for the namespaces.

A named graph with Graph URI like https://w3id.org/nen2660/shapes is not the 
same thing as a concept of Namespace URI like 
https://w3id.org/nen2660#<https://w3id.org/nen2660>.   From the Turtle Primer:

prefix rdfs:, namespace URI: 
http://www.w3.org/2000/01/rdf-schema#<http://www.w3.org/2000/01/rdf-schema>

Note that it calls the non-local name of a full URI a "namespace URI” so I 
should probably be doing that too.

Technically, there is zero relationship between the graph URI and namespace 
URI. The named graph can be http://anything.at.all and define classes and 
properties using http://michel.com#<http://michel.com> as the namespace URI. 
That much difference may confuse people, so it’s not usually recommended but 
it’s fine technically.

All the classes/properties of interest can then use the same namespace URI, 
even if they are managed in different named graphs

So,  
https://w3id.org/nen2660<https://w3id.org/nen2660/Thing1>#Class1<https://w3id.org/nen2660/Thing1>
 an rdfs:Class can be in  https://w3id.org/nen2660/schema graph and  
https://w3id.org/nen2660<https://w3id.org/nen2660/Thing2>#NodeShape2<https://w3id.org/nen2660/Thing2>
 a SHACL NodeShape can be in  https://w3id.org/nen2660/shapes graph.

Both graphs as TTL would state

@prefix nen2660: <https://w3id.org/nen2660#<https://w3id.org/nen2660>> .

so you’d see nen2660:Class1 and nen2660:NodeShape2 and so things are is 
consistent wrt writing SPARQL queries, for example, over t

RE: Why SKOS in ontologies? Was Re: [topbraid-users] best practise name space in multiple languages?

2021-04-14 Thread &#x27;Bohms, H.M. (Michel)&#x27; via TopBraid Suite Users

In NL we have eg:

https://bp4mc2.org/profiles/#skos-toepassingsprofiel-voor-begrippenkaders

a profile for LD application for the government.
(you have to follow or explain why not…)

It has an integral role for skos.

[cid:image002.jpg@01D73123.705935B0]

Small fragment (google) translation:

2. SKOS Application profile for conceptual frameworks

Concepts make it clear which "topics of conversation" there are. In a system 
catalog terms are formally defined, each definition being built up according to 
strict rules. The essence is that every concept in a particular domain is 
explained in terms of other concepts. Those concepts are also limited until 
every concept that needs explanation has been defined. Ultimately, the concepts 
remain, the meaning of which is assumed to be automatic. In a logical model 
these are called axioms. This creates an axiomatic conceptual framework for 
each domain. This conceptual framework can be regarded as a more-less specified 
description of the institutional reality of the domain.

SKOS is used to describe concepts. SKOS is on the apply or explain list in the 
Netherlands.

Each concept is represented by a skos: concept.
Each domain has its own conceptual framework. The conceptual framework for a 
particular domain is represented by a skos: ConceptScheme.
Concepts can be organized in collections. A collection is represented by a 
skos: collection.
Concepts in different domains can be linked through appropriate mechanisms. 
This connection of concepts between domains creates a cohesion of coherent 
conceptual frameworks. This system of coherent conceptual frameworks can be 
seen as the knowledge base for a system catalog.




Dr. ir. H.M. (Michel) Bohms
Scientist Specialist
Structural Reliability

T +31 (0)88 866 31 07
M +31 (0)63 038 12 20
E michel.bo...@tno.nl

Location



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Van: topbraid-users@googlegroups.com  Namens 
David Price
Verzonden: woensdag 14 april 2021 11:25
Aan: topbraid-users@googlegroups.com
Onderwerp: Why SKOS in ontologies? Was Re: [topbraid-users] best practise name 
space in multiple languages?

Hi TB users,

The discussion with Michel caused a question to pop into my mind and I hope to 
get some customer feedback here.

I see customers/bodies use SKOS to define what turn out to be simple lists of 
standard class instances that are then used in an ontology. My question is - 
Why?

OWL enumerated classes provide the same standard-instance capability, but 
without the added “clutter” in your ontology when you import SKOS. The number 
of completely empty, never-to-be-used cases of Collection, Concept Scheme, etc. 
appearing as classes in ontologies has become surprising to me.

Can anyone who’s been part of making this kind of decision in your ontologies 
please explain Why?  Among other possible reasons, a few I could think of might 
be:

  *   Is it that the UI for creating them is simpler?
  *   Is it that these standard instances are seen as being somehow improved by 
having a not-well-defined tree structure available via broader/narrower?
  *   Is it that you’re using a standard that’s done this and you’d be happy 
with any solution that supports defining standard instances? i.e. perhaps a 
SKOS-to-enumerated-class importer for these situations would be a useful tool?
  *   Is that you really have use cases like described here: 
https://www.w3.org/2006/07/SWD/SKOS/skos-and-owl/master.html. ?
  *   Is it really just that you prefer/need the SKOS annotation properties, 
even for classes, instances, etc? (I like them and have local a 
skos-annotations-only.ttl I reuse)
We are always looking for real-world user scenarios wrt improving EDG, and so 
you can also think of this as a requirements gathering/feature request exercise.

It may be there are some EDG feature or UI changes we could make. It may be 
that a How-To video on our Web site explaining this approach and how to best 
execute it in EDG would be useful. I don’t know but thought it worth asking the 
requirements question to see how prevalent this is and why it happens.

Cheers,
David



“
x.y  Combination of language bindings

In practice, there will often be a need for a combination of language bindings. 
In the most extensive case, this concerns (always 1 or more):

  *   SKOS concept scheme;
  *   RDFS (basic) ontology (imports the SKOS concept scheme);
  *   OWL ontology (imports the RDFS ontology);
  *   SHACL graph (imports the RDFS ontology).
Since the semantic int

RE: [topbraid-users] best practise name space in multiple languages?

2021-04-14 Thread &#x27;Bohms, H.M. (Michel)&#x27; via TopBraid Suite Users

Ok, thx, changed to:



De gehanteerde prefixen & ‘name space URI’s’:

¾nen2660-vocab   
https://w3id.org/nen2660/vocab#<https://w3id.org/nen2660/vocab>

¾nen2660 
https://w3id.org/def/nen2660/def#<https://w3id.org/def/nen2660/def>
Met ‘graaf URI’s’ (default voor vocab, 3 subgrafen voor def):

¾https://w3id.org/nen2660/vocab# (bestand: nen2660-skos.ttl)

¾https://w3id.org/nen2660-rdfs/def# (bestand: nen2660-rdfs.ttl)

¾https://w3id.org/nen2660-owl/def# (bestand: nen2660-owl.ttl)

¾https://w3id.org/nen2660-shacl/def# (bestand: 
nen2660-shacl.ttl)




Dr. ir. H.M. (Michel) Bohms
Scientist Specialist
Structural Reliability

T +31 (0)88 866 31 07
M +31 (0)63 038 12 20
E michel.bo...@tno.nl<mailto:michel.bo...@tno.nl>

Location<http://www.tno.nl/locations/DTS>



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Van: topbraid-users@googlegroups.com  Namens 
David Price
Verzonden: woensdag 14 april 2021 11:41
Aan: topbraid-users@googlegroups.com
CC: Opgenoort, Rik ; Kronemeijer, Redmer 
; Bart Bink 
Onderwerp: Re: [topbraid-users] best practise name space in multiple languages?




On 14 Apr 2021, at 10:28, 'Bohms, H.M. (Michel)' via TopBraid Suite Users 
mailto:topbraid-users@googlegroups.com>> wrote:

I thought the / or # only came in with the porefix independent of the uri 
itself…..

No, the # or / is part of the Namespace URI.

>From the Turtle Primer:

The full triples notation requires that URI references be written out 
completely, in angle brackets, which, as the example above illustrates, can 
result in very long lines on a page. For convenience, the Primer uses a 
shorthand way of writing triples (the same shorthand is also used in other RDF 
specifications). This shorthand substitutes a qualified name (or QName) without 
angle brackets as an abbreviation for a full URI reference . A QName contains a 
prefix that has been assigned to a namespace URI, followed by a colon, and then 
a local name. The full URIref is formed from the QName by appending the local 
name to the namespace URI assigned to the prefix. So, for example, if the QName 
prefix foo is assigned to the namespace URI http://example.org/somewhere/, then 
the QName foo:bar is shorthand for the URIref http://example.org/somewhere/bar. 
Primer examples will also use several "well-known" QName prefixes (without 
explicitly specifying them each time), defined as follows:

prefix rdf:, namespace URI: 
http://www.w3.org/1999/02/22-rdf-syntax-ns#<http://www.w3.org/1999/02/22-rdf-syntax-ns>
prefix rdfs:, namespace URI: 
http://www.w3.org/2000/01/rdf-schema#<http://www.w3.org/2000/01/rdf-schema>
prefix dc:, namespace URI: http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/
prefix owl:, namespace URI: 
http://www.w3.org/2002/07/owl#<http://www.w3.org/2002/07/owl>
prefix ex:, namespace URI: http://www.example.org/ (or http://www.example.com/)
prefix xsd:, namespace URI: 
http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema#<http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema>

Cheers,
David


UK +44 (0) 7788 561308
US +1 (336) 283-0808

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RE: [topbraid-users] best practise name space in multiple languages?

2021-04-14 Thread &#x27;Bohms, H.M. (Michel)&#x27; via TopBraid Suite Users

Thx and indeed we might want versioned graph uri’s!

Now:

De gehanteerde prefixen & ‘name space URI’s’:

¾nen2660-vocab   
https://w3id.org/nen2660/vocab#<https://w3id.org/nen2660/vocab>

¾nen2660  
https://w3id.org/def/nen2660/def#<https://w3id.org/def/nen2660/def>
Met ‘graaf URI’s’ (default voor vocab, 3 subgrafen voor def):

¾https://w3id.org/nen2660/vocab (bestand: nen2660-skos.ttl)

¾https://w3id.org/nen2660-rdfs/def (bestand: nen2660-rdfs.ttl)

¾https://w3id.org/nen2660-owl/def (bestand: nen2660-owl.ttl)

¾https://w3id.org/nen2660-shacl/def (bestand: nen2660-shacl.ttl)

happy with that “solution” for now, let’s see what the use case question brings 
us as “problem” 😊

One more:
>From the above the process of obtaining a default name space uri from the 
>graph uri would be:
ns-uri := g-uri + #

and I know see that is exactly what happens in tbc when you click the chain….:

[cid:image001.png@01D7312B.5913E5F0]

thx

gr michel

Dr. ir. H.M. (Michel) Bohms
Scientist Specialist
Structural Reliability

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Van: topbraid-users@googlegroups.com  Namens 
David Price
Verzonden: woensdag 14 april 2021 12:16
Aan: topbraid-users@googlegroups.com
CC: Opgenoort, Rik ; Kronemeijer, Redmer 
; Bart Bink 
Onderwerp: Re: [topbraid-users] best practise name space in multiple languages?

On 14 Apr 2021, at 10:49, 'Bohms, H.M. (Michel)' via TopBraid Suite Users 
mailto:topbraid-users@googlegroups.com>> wrote:

Ok, thx, changed to:

De gehanteerde prefixen & ‘name space URI’s’:
•nen2660-vocab   
https://w3id.org/nen2660/vocab#<https://w3id.org/nen2660/vocab>

•nen2660 
https://w3id.org/def/nen2660/def#<https://w3id.org/def/nen2660/def>
Met ‘graaf URI’s’ (default voor vocab, 3 subgrafen voor def):
•https://w3id.org/nen2660/vocab# (bestand: nen2660-skos.ttl)
•
https://w3id.org/nen2660-rdfs/def#<https://w3id.org/nen2660-rdfs/def> (bestand: 
nen2660-rdfs.ttl)
•
https://w3id.org/nen2660-owl/def#<https://w3id.org/nen2660-owl/def> (bestand: 
nen2660-owl.ttl)

•
https://w3id.org/nen2660-shacl/def#<https://w3id.org/nen2660-shacl/def> 
(bestand: nen2660-shacl.ttl)
IMO the Graph URI and the Namespace URI are best kept different so nobody gets 
confused. It is also the case that you may define constructs in any namespace 
in a graph and so there is really zero relation required between them.

So, I’d suggest this for your Graph URIs (no #):

Met ‘graaf URI’s’ (default voor vocab, 3 subgrafen voor def):
•https://w3id.org/nen2660/vocab (bestand: nen2660-skos.ttl)
•https://w3id.org/nen2660-rdfs/def (bestand: nen2660-rdfs.ttl)
•https://w3id.org/nen2660-owl/def (bestand: nen2660-owl.ttl)

•https://w3id.org/nen2660-shacl/def (bestand: nen2660-shacl.ttl)
As I explained earlier there are cases supporting versions of ontologies with 
the same classes defined - you may eventually need  
https://w3id.org/nen2660/v1/vocab and https://w3id.org/nen2660/v2/vocab to both 
contain https://w3id.org/nen2660/vocab/PhysicalObject concept. In the 
engineering world where apps are audited (e.g. Aircraft design and 
manufacture), there are situations where there is a hard requirement for very 
strictly managed change to all apps, so versions are needed in the ontologies 
Graph URIs. The ontology provider can offer both a versioned release with v1, 
v2, etc. in the Graph URI and an un-versioned release with no v1, etc. in the 
Graph URI that is always the latest-and-greatest. That way implementors can 
choose “always the latest” or “a specific version”.

The main point is to separate the Graph URI from Namespace URI in your 
thinking, and maintain that separation in the artefacts themselves.

Cheers,
David

Dr. ir. H.M. (Michel) Bohms
Scientist Specialist
Structural Reliability

T +31 (0)88 866 31 07
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[topbraid-users] render issue in case of uuid code as name

2021-06-01 Thread &#x27;Bohms, H.M. (Michel)&#x27; via TopBraid Suite Users

Dear tq
I have asked earlier but I could not refind

I have:

https://w3id.org/cbnl/skos/term#048B3010-0BD1-4A89-9F49-FE6D825DA799
rdf:type skos:Concept ;
dct:source "IMBOR2021beta"@NL-nl ;
skos:broader nen2660-term:InformationObject ;
skos:definition "Informatieobject voor het registreren en koppelen van
documenten aan
objecttypes."@NL-nl
;
skos:prefLabel "Document"@NL-nl ;
.

So name is UUID code.

Despite prefixes are fine TBC does not use prefix in interface now.
Think I reported earlier.

(when I change uuid number into "Document" things render fine again)

Gr michel

Dr. ir. H.M. (Michel) Bohms
Scientist Specialist
Structural Reliability

T +31 (0)88 866 31 07
M +31 (0)63 038 12 20
E michel.bo...@tno.nl

Location

[cid:image001.gif@01D756EF.83196110]

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RE: [topbraid-users] render issue in case of uuid code as name

2021-06-02 Thread &#x27;Bohms, H.M. (Michel)&#x27; via TopBraid Suite Users

Hi Holger,
Are you sure? latest Turtle says:

[168s]

PN_LOCAL

::=

(PN_CHARS_U<https://www.w3.org/TR/turtle/#grammar-production-PN_CHARS_U> | ':' 
| [0-9] | PLX<https://www.w3.org/TR/turtle/#grammar-production-PLX>) 
((PN_CHARS<https://www.w3.org/TR/turtle/#grammar-production-PN_CHARS> | '.' | 
':' | PLX<https://www.w3.org/TR/turtle/#grammar-production-PLX>)* 
(PN_CHARS<https://www.w3.org/TR/turtle/#grammar-production-PN_CHARS> | ':' | 
PLX<https://www.w3.org/TR/turtle/#grammar-production-PLX>))?



It was not allowed in the 2008 variant hence (see red):

D.4 Changes from January 2008 Team 
Submission<http://www.w3.org/TeamSubmission/2008/SUBM-turtle-20080114/> to 
First Public Working Draft<http://www.w3.org/TR/2011/WD-turtle-20110809/>

  *   Adopted three additional string syntaxes from SPARQL: 
STRING_LITERAL2<http://www.w3.org/TR/2013/REC-sparql11-query-20130321/#rSTRING_LITERAL2>,
 
STRING_LITERAL_LONG1<http://www.w3.org/TR/2013/REC-sparql11-query-20130321/#rSTRING_LITERAL_LONG1>,
 
STRING_LITERAL_LONG2<http://www.w3.org/TR/2013/REC-sparql11-query-20130321/#rSTRING_LITERAL_LONG2>
  *   Adopted SPARQL's syntax for prefixed names (see editor's 
draft<http://www.w3.org/TR/sparql11-query/#rPrefixedName>):
 *   '.'s in names in all positions of a local name apart from the first or 
last, e.g. ex:first.name.
 *   digits in the first character of the 
PN_LOCAL<http://www.w3.org/TR/rdf-sparql-query/#rPN_LOCAL> lexical token, e.g. 
ex:7tm.
  *   adopted SPARQL's IRI resolution and prefix substitution text.
  *   explicitly allowed re-use of the same prefix.
  *   Added parsing rules<https://www.w3.org/TR/turtle/#sec-parsing>.

GR MICHEL





Dr. ir. H.M. (Michel) Bohms
Scientist Specialist
Structural Reliability

T +31 (0)88 866 31 07
M +31 (0)63 038 12 20
E michel.bo...@tno.nl<mailto:michel.bo...@tno.nl>

Location<http://www.tno.nl/locations/DTS>



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Van: topbraid-users@googlegroups.com  Namens 
Holger Knublauch
Verzonden: woensdag 2 juni 2021 03:40
Aan: topbraid-users@googlegroups.com
Onderwerp: Re: [topbraid-users] render issue in case of uuid code as name


We use slightly different serialization algorithms across tools but local names 
cannot start with digits so writing the full URI is correct.

If you just export "Turtle" from EDG or save to Turtle from TBC you'll get 
test_uuid:675d0ae5-d8eb-49b7-867f-80ba8c0b09e9 while Sorted Turtle will produce 
<http://example.org/ontologies/test_uuid#675d0ae5-d8eb-49b7-867f-80ba8c0b09e9><http://example.org/ontologies/test_uuid#675d0ae5-d8eb-49b7-867f-80ba8c0b09e9>
 which is more correct AFAIK. Both can be parsed though, so it shouldn't matter 
too much.

Holger


On 2021-06-01 10:14 pm, 'Bohms, H.M. (Michel)' via TopBraid Suite Users wrote:
Dear tq
I have asked earlier but I could not refind….

I have:

https://w3id.org/cbnl/skos/term#048B3010-0BD1-4A89-9F49-FE6D825DA799
  rdf:type skos:Concept ;
  dct:source "IMBOR2021beta"@NL-nl ;
  skos:broader nen2660-term:InformationObject ;
  skos:definition "Informatieobject voor het registreren en koppelen van 
documenten aan 
objecttypes."@NL-nl<mailto:%22Informatieobject%20voor%20het%20registreren%20en%20koppelen%20van%20documenten%20aan%20objecttypes.%22@NL-nl>
 ;
  skos:prefLabel "Document"@NL-nl ;
.

So name is UUID code.

Despite prefixes are fine TBC does not use prefix in interface now.
Think I reported earlier.

(when I change uuid number into “Document” things render fine again)

Gr michel



Dr. ir. H.M. (Michel) Bohms
Scientist Specialist
Structural Reliability

T +31 (0)88 866 31 07
M +31 (0)63 038 12 20
E michel.bo...@tno.nl<mailto:michel.bo...@tno.nl>

Location<http://www.tno.nl/locations/DTS>



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RE: [topbraid-users] render issue in case of uuid code as name

2021-06-02 Thread &#x27;Bohms, H.M. (Michel)&#x27; via TopBraid Suite Users

Super Holger, thx!

Ps
And thx Redmer, for pinpointing.



Dr. ir. H.M. (Michel) Bohms
Scientist Specialist
Structural Reliability

T +31 (0)88 866 31 07
M +31 (0)63 038 12 20
E michel.bo...@tno.nl<mailto:michel.bo...@tno.nl>

Location<http://www.tno.nl/locations/DTS>



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Van: topbraid-users@googlegroups.com  Namens 
Holger Knublauch
Verzonden: donderdag 3 juni 2021 00:52
Aan: topbraid-users@googlegroups.com
Onderwerp: Re: [topbraid-users] render issue in case of uuid code as name


Apologies, you are right. I even found a ticket in our Jira system from 2017 
where we wanted to update this but it fell through the cracks. The problem is 
that the Sorted Turtle writer uses an outdated base library that we cloned from 
an earlier Jena version. We'll try to fix that for 7.1.

Holger


On 2021-06-02 6:03 pm, 'Bohms, H.M. (Michel)' via TopBraid Suite Users wrote:
Hi Holger,
Are you sure? latest Turtle says:

[168s]

PN_LOCAL

::=

(PN_CHARS_U<https://www.w3.org/TR/turtle/#grammar-production-PN_CHARS_U> | ':' 
| [0-9] | PLX<https://www.w3.org/TR/turtle/#grammar-production-PLX>) 
((PN_CHARS<https://www.w3.org/TR/turtle/#grammar-production-PN_CHARS> | '.' | 
':' | PLX<https://www.w3.org/TR/turtle/#grammar-production-PLX>)* 
(PN_CHARS<https://www.w3.org/TR/turtle/#grammar-production-PN_CHARS> | ':' | 
PLX<https://www.w3.org/TR/turtle/#grammar-production-PLX>))?



It was not allowed in the 2008 variant hence (see red):

D.4 Changes from January 2008 Team 
Submission<http://www.w3.org/TeamSubmission/2008/SUBM-turtle-20080114/> to 
First Public Working Draft<http://www.w3.org/TR/2011/WD-turtle-20110809/>

  1.  Adopted three additional string syntaxes from SPARQL: 
STRING_LITERAL2<http://www.w3.org/TR/2013/REC-sparql11-query-20130321/#rSTRING_LITERAL2>,
 
STRING_LITERAL_LONG1<http://www.w3.org/TR/2013/REC-sparql11-query-20130321/#rSTRING_LITERAL_LONG1>,
 
STRING_LITERAL_LONG2<http://www.w3.org/TR/2013/REC-sparql11-query-20130321/#rSTRING_LITERAL_LONG2>
  2.  Adopted SPARQL's syntax for prefixed names (see editor's 
draft<http://www.w3.org/TR/sparql11-query/#rPrefixedName>):

 *   '.'s in names in all positions of a local name apart from the first or 
last, e.g. ex:first.name.
 *   digits in the first character of the 
PN_LOCAL<http://www.w3.org/TR/rdf-sparql-query/#rPN_LOCAL> lexical token, e.g. 
ex:7tm.

  1.  adopted SPARQL's IRI resolution and prefix substitution text.
  2.  explicitly allowed re-use of the same prefix.
  3.  Added parsing rules<https://www.w3.org/TR/turtle/#sec-parsing>.

GR MICHEL





Dr. ir. H.M. (Michel) Bohms
Scientist Specialist
Structural Reliability

T +31 (0)88 866 31 07
M +31 (0)63 038 12 20
E michel.bo...@tno.nl<mailto:michel.bo...@tno.nl>

Location<http://www.tno.nl/locations/DTS>



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Van: topbraid-users@googlegroups.com<mailto:topbraid-users@googlegroups.com> 
<mailto:topbraid-users@googlegroups.com> 
Namens Holger Knublauch
Verzonden: woensdag 2 juni 2021 03:40
Aan: topbraid-users@googlegroups.com<mailto:topbraid-users@googlegroups.com>
Onderwerp: Re: [topbraid-users] render issue in case of uuid code as name


We use slightly different serialization algorithms across tools but local names 
cannot start with digits so writing the full URI is correct.

If you just export "Turtle" from EDG or save to Turtle from TBC you'll get 
test_uuid:675d0ae5-d8eb-49b7-867f-80ba8c0b09e9 while Sorted Turtle will produce 
<http://example.org/ontologies/test_uuid#675d0ae5-d8eb-49b7-867f-80ba8c0b09e9><http://example.org/ontologies/test_uuid#675d0ae5-d8eb-49b7-867f-80ba8c0b09e9>
 which is more correct AFAIK. Both can be parsed though, so it shouldn't matter 
too much.

Holger


On 2021-06-01 10:14 pm, 'Bohms, H.M. (Michel)' via TopBraid Suite Users wrote:
Dear tq
I have asked earlier but I could not refind….

I

[topbraid-users] shacl rule or metadata+shacl meta-rule?

2021-06-09 Thread &#x27;Bohms, H.M. (Michel)&#x27; via TopBraid Suite Users

In a project we see 2 options of modelling the  rule based knowledge.


  1.  Using shacl

Model the rule in shacl-af (if a and b  then c)


  1.  Model the rule as metadata as kind of reference data fact (a,b,c) 
involving a (one, generic) metarule in shacl-af selecting the apporriate fact
(just fyi
adam-shape:TemplateToInferMaatregelComplex a sh:NodeShape ;
sh:targetClass adam-o:Maatregel ;
sh:rule [
   a sh:SPARQLRule ;
   sh:prefixes adam-p:, adam-ex:, rdf: ;
   sh:construct """
   CONSTRUCT {
   $this ?p ?o .
   }
   WHERE {
   $this rdf:type 
?type .
   FILTER 
(!STRSTARTS(STR($this),STR(adam-ex:))).

   
?bouwdeel_instance adam-p:heeftMaatregel $this .
   
?bouwdeel_instance rdf:type ?bouwdeel_type .
   
?bouwdeel_instance adam-p:heeftMateriaal ?bouwdeel_materiaal .

   ?ref_mat 
rdf:type ?type .
   FILTER 
(STRSTARTS(STR(?ref_mat),STR(adam-ex:))).
   ?ref_bouwdeel 
adam-p:heeftMaatregel ?ref_mat .
   FILTER 
(STRSTARTS(STR(?ref_mat),STR(adam-ex:))).
   ?ref_bouwdeel 
rdf:type ?bouwdeel_type .
   ?ref_bouwdeel 
adam-p:heeftMateriaal ?bouwdeel_materiaal .

   ?ref_mat ?p ?o .
   }
   """
] .

Working on metadata like:

ex:Goed_Reling_2_with_two_Maatregels
  rdf:type adam-o:Reling ;
  adam-p:heeftMaatregel ex:Goed_ConserveringOverlagen_2 ;
  adam-p:heeftMaatregel ex:Goed_GrootOnderhoud_3 ;
  adam-p:heeftMateriaal adam-vwl:Staal ;
  adam-p:oppervlakte "110"^^xsd:decimal ;
.
)

Now question is: what is best, futureproof option (well assuming the shacl-af 
will be a recommendationanyway).
Option 1 seems more standard. Option 2 more particular but involving an an 
efficient meta-rule as kind of template-rule.

Can you think of any pros/cons that can help us decide?

Thx a lot, Michel



Dr. ir. H.M. (Michel) Bohms
Scientist Specialist
Structural Reliability

T +31 (0)88 866 31 07
M +31 (0)63 038 12 20
E michel.bo...@tno.nl

Location



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RE: [topbraid-users] shacl rule or metadata+shacl meta-rule?

2021-06-09 Thread &#x27;Bohms, H.M. (Michel)&#x27; via TopBraid Suite Users

Thx David for your advice.

Many rules indeed so metafacts would be handy, but maybe as frontend to more 
‘standard’ rule-based.

We’re going to take your input into account, michel





Dr. ir. H.M. (Michel) Bohms
Scientist Specialist
Structural Reliability

T +31 (0)88 866 31 07
M +31 (0)63 038 12 20
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Van: topbraid-users@googlegroups.com  Namens 
David Price
Verzonden: woensdag 9 juni 2021 12:09
Aan: topbraid-users@googlegroups.com
Onderwerp: Re: [topbraid-users] shacl rule or metadata+shacl meta-rule?

Hi Michel,

This looks like a question that I call “Explicit Rules vs Data-Driven Rules”. 
Both make sense depending on circumstance. I use data-driven when there are 
going to be hundreds of rules and explicit if there are going to be say 10 
rules and it’s likely I can copy and paste and edit when creating new ones. 
Data-driven is also better if there is staff available to whom you can turn 
over the the data creation task since it requires no SHACL or rule-writing 
skills (e.g. often the “data” can be managed as a spreadsheet with a simple 
spreadsheet importer to turn it into the input triples).

Cheers,
David


On 9 Jun 2021, at 08:02, 'Bohms, H.M. (Michel)' via TopBraid Suite Users 
mailto:topbraid-users@googlegroups.com>> wrote:

In a project we see 2 options of modelling the  rule based knowledge.


  1.  Using shacl

Model the rule in shacl-af (if a and b  then c)


  1.  Model the rule as metadata as kind of reference data fact (a,b,c) 
involving a (one, generic) metarule in shacl-af selecting the apporriate fact
(just fyi
adam-shape:TemplateToInferMaatregelComplex a sh:NodeShape ;
sh:targetClass adam-o:Maatregel ;
sh:rule [
   a sh:SPARQLRule ;
   sh:prefixes adam-p:, adam-ex:, rdf: ;
   sh:construct """
   CONSTRUCT {
   $this ?p ?o .
   }
   WHERE {
   $this rdf:type 
?type .
   FILTER 
(!STRSTARTS(STR($this),STR(adam-ex:))).

   
?bouwdeel_instance adam-p:heeftMaatregel $this .
   
?bouwdeel_instance rdf:type ?bouwdeel_type .
   
?bouwdeel_instance adam-p:heeftMateriaal ?bouwdeel_materiaal .

   ?ref_mat 
rdf:type ?type .
   FILTER 
(STRSTARTS(STR(?ref_mat),STR(adam-ex:))).
   ?ref_bouwdeel 
adam-p:heeftMaatregel ?ref_mat .
   FILTER 
(STRSTARTS(STR(?ref_mat),STR(adam-ex:))).
   ?ref_bouwdeel 
rdf:type ?bouwdeel_type .
   ?ref_bouwdeel 
adam-p:heeftMateriaal ?bouwdeel_materiaal .

   ?ref_mat ?p ?o .
   }
   """
] .

Working on metadata like:

ex:Goed_Reling_2_with_two_Maatregels
  rdf:type adam-o:Reling ;
  adam-p:heeftMaatregel ex:Goed_ConserveringOverlagen_2 ;
  adam-p:heeftMaatregel ex:Goed_GrootOnderhoud_3 ;
  adam-p:heeftMateriaal adam-vwl:Staal ;
  adam-p:oppervlakte "110"^^xsd:decimal ;
.
)

Now question is: what is best, futureproof option (well assuming the shacl-af 
will be a recommendationanyway).
Option 1 seems more standard. Option 2 more particular but involving an an 
efficient meta-rule as kind of template-rule.

Can you think of any pros/cons that can help us decide?

Thx a lot, Michel



Dr. ir. H.M. (Michel) Bohms
Scientist Specialist
Structural Reliability

T +31 (0)88 866 31 07
M +31 (0)63 038 12 20
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<http:

[topbraid-users] rdfs using owl

2021-06-15 Thread &#x27;Bohms, H.M. (Michel)&#x27; via TopBraid Suite Users

Dear Irene, David

We got the following question on our EU standard proposal:

Why are you using owl in your rdfs spec (for owl:Ontology and owl:imports).

Isn't this simply best practice?
Could you do without ie be RDFS pure?

But how then do you specify the graph uri and how to deal with imports??

Thx for your views, Michel





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Scientist Specialist
Structural Reliability

T +31 (0)88 866 31 07
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RE: [topbraid-users] rdfs using owl

2021-06-15 Thread &#x27;Bohms, H.M. (Michel)&#x27; via TopBraid Suite Users

Thank you Holger, David

Very useful arguments we can use in our justification for choices,
Michel



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Structural Reliability

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Van: topbraid-users@googlegroups.com  Namens 
David Price
Verzonden: dinsdag 15 juni 2021 15:30
Aan: topbraid-users@googlegroups.com
Onderwerp: Re: [topbraid-users] rdfs using owl




On 15 Jun 2021, at 14:07, Holger Knublauch 
mailto:hol...@topquadrant.com>> wrote:

owl:imports is the only feature of OWL that even SHACL mentions because there 
is no real alternative, and it is quite harmless.
Holger

I was writing something which I guess explains Holger's “no real alternative” 
statement. Modularization of RDF-based ontologies and data is the business use 
case being supported and it cannot be done in formally defined, not 
implementation-specific way using only RDF and RDFS.

TBC uses owl:import to define the graph closure for a domain of interest.

RDFS says zero about named graphs, depending on RDF. RDF talks about RDF 
Datasets and the default graph which is the union of everything visible to the 
RDF tool (as far as I can interpret it) but the spec says nothing about how the 
“collection of RDF graphs” is defined or located. It also says nothing about 
how the “set of RDF Triples” that constitute the RDF Graph is defined or 
located.

Give that neither the “set of triples” or “collection of graphs” is formally 
defined, it’s easy to argue that the SPARQL GRAPH keyword actually has little 
or no formal meaning (does one graph need another and if so how is that 
relation specified?).

OWL introduces a more powerful way to manage and relate named graphs and TBC 
takes advantage of that so users can control what triples are visible where. 
Technically I think that is what the RDF spec means by “RDF source” and I think 
that equates to the Ontology Document idea in the OWL2 spec.

Anyway … RDFS purists can simply ignore (or remove) anything in the OWL 
namespace if they have some other way to build RDF Datasets and Named Graphs 
and graph relations in their tooling. In a way the OWL simply provides hints 
about what the graph URIs are and how they are related to other graphs for 
humans when ignored by the tool. In your standards case, you started with OWL 
and “dumbed down" everything you could into RDFS leaving only what formally 
defines the named graph closure.  Note that the OSLC which produces RDFS 
standard ontologies uses owl:Ontology to manage named graphs, so TBC is also 
just following industry usage patterns (as are you).

WRT “best practice” I do sometimes find RDFS that has nothing defining how the 
named graphs relate, sometimes with multiple named graphs in the same RDF/XML 
or TTL file. Usually what you find is that the developers of that content 
actually manage everything separately and then concatenate it into a singe TTL 
at the end. It seems they assume whatever triples they produce is *all* the 
triples and/or can be concatenated with anything else - IMO very odd indeed and 
not nearly as useful to others as having the original separate files.

Not sure if that helps the EU, but explains how TBC works and why.

Cheers,
David



On 15/06/2021 10:23 pm, 'Bohms, H.M. (Michel)' via TopBraid Suite Users wrote:
Dear Irene, David

We got the following question on our EU standard proposal:

Why are you using owl in your rdfs spec (for owl:Ontology and owl:imports).

Isn’t this simply best practice?
Could you do without ie be RDFS pure?

But how then do you specify the graph uri and how to deal with imports??

Thx for your views, Michel





Dr. ir. H.M. (Michel) Bohms
Scientist Specialist
Structural Reliability

T +31 (0)88 866 31 07
M +31 (0)63 038 12 20
E michel.bo...@tno.nl<mailto:michel.bo...@tno.nl>

Location<http://www.tno.nl/locations/DTS>



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RE: [topbraid-users] Staying with official SHACL

2021-06-19 Thread &#x27;Bohms, H.M. (Michel)&#x27; via TopBraid Suite Users

I have exactly the same issue in CEN TC442/WG4/TG3 ….

I now have:

# baseURI: https://w3id.org/sml/shacl/def
# imports: https://w3id.org/sml/rdfs/def
# imports: http://datashapes.org/dash
# imports: http://qudt.org/schema/qudt
# imports: http://qudt.org/vocab/quantitykind
# imports: http://qudt.org/vocab/unit
# imports: http://www.w3.org/2004/02/skos/core
# imports: https://www.w3.org/2006/time
# prefix: sml

@prefix dash: .
@prefix sml: .
@prefix owl: .
@prefix quantitykind: .
@prefix qudt: .
@prefix rdf: .
@prefix rdfs: .
@prefix sh: .
@prefix skos: .
@prefix time: .
@prefix unit: .
@prefix xsd: .

a owl:Ontology ;
owl:imports ;
owl:imports ;
owl:imports ;
owl:imports ;
owl:imports ;
owl:imports ;
.
Etc.

But people question the red.

Thx michel

Dr. ir. H.M. (Michel) Bohms
Scientist Specialist
Structural Reliability

T +31 (0)88 866 31 07
M +31 (0)63 038 12 20
E michel.bo...@tno.nl

Location

[cid:image001.gif@01D764EF.B8308D70]

Van: topbraid-users@googlegroups.com Namens
Steve Ray
Verzonden: vrijdag 18 juni 2021 21:58
Aan: TopBraid Suite Users
Onderwerp: [topbraid-users] Staying with official SHACL

Hi, I'm working with a standards committee that would rather avoid straying
outside the official W3C SHACL standard. My question is, if I removed the
import of datashapes.org/dash from the files I'm
working with, does this bring the TopQuadrant tools to a crashing halt as far
as running the SHACL reasoner?

I suppose another way of asking this is whether SHACL is built in to TBC under
the hood, or is the dash import part of that?

Steve

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Re: [topbraid-users] Staying with official SHACL

2021-06-20 Thread &#x27;Bohms, H.M. (Michel)&#x27; via TopBraid Suite Users

Ok butthat stuff is not used internally, like when checking shacl?
Ie if we do not use it...no issue?
Thx

Op 20 jun. 2021 04:59 schreef Irene Polikoff :
This is very easy to find out. Just go to http://datashapes.org/dash. All 
functionality is explained in detail.

On Jun 19, 2021, at 5:48 PM, Steve Ray 
mailto:st...@steveray.com>> wrote:

Very cool! With bated breath, I tried it, and nothing blew up!

It would be good to know at some point what functionality I lose by directly 
importing
owl:imports <http://www.w3.org/ns/shacl#> ;
instead of
  owl:imports <http://datashapes.org/dash> ;

Steve




On Sat, Jun 19, 2021 at 3:36 AM David Price 
mailto:dpr...@topquadrant.com>> wrote:
Hi Steve and Michel

I’m not near my computer so cannot do it for you, but suggest replacing dash 
import with SHACL import and trying it. I think that’s ok.

Cheers,
David

On 19 Jun 2021, at 08:44, 'Bohms, H.M. (Michel)' via TopBraid Suite Users 
mailto:topbraid-users@googlegroups.com>> wrote:


I have exactly the same issue in CEN TC442/WG4/TG3 ….

I now have:

# baseURI: https://w3id.org/sml/shacl/def
# imports: https://w3id.org/sml/rdfs/def
# imports: http://datashapes.org/dash
# imports: http://qudt.org/schema/qudt
# imports: http://qudt.org/vocab/quantitykind
# imports: http://qudt.org/vocab/unit
# imports: http://www.w3.org/2004/02/skos/core
# imports: https://www.w3.org/2006/time
# prefix: sml

@prefix dash: <http://datashapes.org/dash#> .
@prefix sml: <https://w3id.org/sml/def#> .
@prefix owl: <http://www.w3.org/2002/07/owl#> .
@prefix quantitykind: <http://qudt.org/vocab/quantitykind/> .
@prefix qudt: <http://qudt.org/schema/qudt/> .
@prefix rdf: <http://www.w3.org/1999/02/22-rdf-syntax-ns#> .
@prefix rdfs: <http://www.w3.org/2000/01/rdf-schema#> .
@prefix sh: <http://www.w3.org/ns/shacl#> .
@prefix skos: <http://www.w3.org/2004/02/skos/core#> .
@prefix time: <http://www.w3.org/2006/time#> .
@prefix unit: <http://qudt.org/vocab/unit/> .
@prefix xsd: <http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema#> .

<https://w3id.org/sml/shacl/def>
  a owl:Ontology ;
  owl:imports <https://w3id.org/sml/rdfs/def> ;
  owl:imports <http://datashapes.org/dash> ;
  owl:imports <http://qudt.org/schema/qudt> ;
  owl:imports <http://qudt.org/vocab/quantitykind> ;
  owl:imports <http://qudt.org/vocab/unit> ;
  owl:imports <https://www.w3.org/2006/time> ;
.
Etc.

But people question the red.

Thx michel



Dr. ir. H.M. (Michel) Bohms
Scientist Specialist
Structural Reliability

T +31 (0)88 866 31 07
M +31 (0)63 038 12 20
E michel.bo...@tno.nl<mailto:michel.bo...@tno.nl>

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Van: topbraid-users@googlegroups.com<mailto:topbraid-users@googlegroups.com> 
mailto:topbraid-users@googlegroups.com>> 
Namens Steve Ray
Verzonden: vrijdag 18 juni 2021 21:58
Aan: TopBraid Suite Users 
mailto:topbraid-users@googlegroups.com>>
Onderwerp: [topbraid-users] Staying with official SHACL

Hi, I'm working with a standards committee that would rather avoid straying 
outside the official W3C SHACL standard. My question is, if I removed the 
import of datashapes.org/dash<http://datashapes.org/dash> from the files I'm 
working with, does this bring the TopQuadrant tools to a crashing halt as far 
as running the SHACL reasoner?

I suppose another way of asking this is whether SHACL is built in to TBC under 
the hood, or is the dash import part of that?


Steve

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RE: [topbraid-users] Staying with official SHACL

2021-06-20 Thread &#x27;Bohms, H.M. (Michel)&#x27; via TopBraid Suite Users

Ahh, ok, these were the dependencies I was looking for! I guess Steve too.
So we have to remember to add in case of EDG-usage. Right?
(or is the use by EDG always via the shacl api so that is automatic?)



Dr. ir. H.M. (Michel) Bohms
Scientist Specialist
Structural Reliability

T +31 (0)88 866 31 07
M +31 (0)63 038 12 20
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Van: topbraid-users@googlegroups.com  Namens 
Holger Knublauch
Verzonden: maandag 21 juni 2021 00:58
Aan: topbraid-users@googlegroups.com
Onderwerp: Re: [topbraid-users] Staying with official SHACL


In addition to the extra constraint components

http://datashapes.org/constraints.html

the dash namespace also imports the tosh namespace, which contains constraints 
on the SHACL metamodel and therefore is used to drive the forms in EDG.

What you do with the files generated with TopBraid outside of TopBraid is of 
course your own decision. I assume all standards-compliant SHACL validation 
engines will support at least SHACL Core without any mandatory owl:imports. In 
the SHACL API that I wrote, the code uses dash and tosh internally to identify 
the constraint components, so they are internally added in case they don't 
exist in the provided shapes graph. But this happens automatically.

Holger


On 2021-06-20 7:48 am, Steve Ray wrote:
Very cool! With bated breath, I tried it, and nothing blew up!

It would be good to know at some point what functionality I lose by directly 
importing
  owl:imports <http://www.w3.org/ns/shacl#<http://www.w3.org/ns/shacl>> ;
instead of
   owl:imports <http://datashapes.org/dash> ;

Steve



On Sat, Jun 19, 2021 at 3:36 AM David Price 
mailto:dpr...@topquadrant.com>> wrote:
Hi Steve and Michel

I’m not near my computer so cannot do it for you, but suggest replacing dash 
import with SHACL import and trying it. I think that’s ok.
Cheers,
David


On 19 Jun 2021, at 08:44, 'Bohms, H.M. (Michel)' via TopBraid Suite Users 
mailto:topbraid-users@googlegroups.com>> wrote:

I have exactly the same issue in CEN TC442/WG4/TG3 ….

I now have:

# baseURI: https://w3id.org/sml/shacl/def
# imports: https://w3id.org/sml/rdfs/def
# imports: http://datashapes.org/dash
# imports: http://qudt.org/schema/qudt
# imports: http://qudt.org/vocab/quantitykind
# imports: http://qudt.org/vocab/unit
# imports: http://www.w3.org/2004/02/skos/core
# imports: https://www.w3.org/2006/time
# prefix: sml

@prefix dash: <http://datashapes.org/dash#<http://datashapes.org/dash>> .
@prefix sml: <https://w3id.org/sml/def#<https://w3id.org/sml/def>> .
@prefix owl: <http://www.w3.org/2002/07/owl#<http://www.w3.org/2002/07/owl>> .
@prefix quantitykind: <http://qudt.org/vocab/quantitykind/> .
@prefix qudt: <http://qudt.org/schema/qudt/> .
@prefix rdf: 
<http://www.w3.org/1999/02/22-rdf-syntax-ns#<http://www.w3.org/1999/02/22-rdf-syntax-ns>>
 .
@prefix rdfs: 
<http://www.w3.org/2000/01/rdf-schema#<http://www.w3.org/2000/01/rdf-schema>> .
@prefix sh: <http://www.w3.org/ns/shacl#<http://www.w3.org/ns/shacl>> .
@prefix skos: 
<http://www.w3.org/2004/02/skos/core#<http://www.w3.org/2004/02/skos/core>> .
@prefix time: <http://www.w3.org/2006/time#<http://www.w3.org/2006/time>> .
@prefix unit: <http://qudt.org/vocab/unit/> .
@prefix xsd: 
<http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema#<http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema>> .

<https://w3id.org/sml/shacl/def>
  a owl:Ontology ;
  owl:imports <https://w3id.org/sml/rdfs/def> ;
  owl:imports <http://datashapes.org/dash> ;
  owl:imports <http://qudt.org/schema/qudt> ;
  owl:imports <http://qudt.org/vocab/quantitykind> ;
  owl:imports <http://qudt.org/vocab/unit> ;
  owl:imports <https://www.w3.org/2006/time> ;
.
Etc.

But people question the red.

Thx michel



Dr. ir. H.M. (Michel) Bohms
Scientist Specialist
Structural Reliability

T +31 (0)88 866 31 07
M +31 (0)63 038 12 20
E michel.bo...@tno.nl<mailto:michel.bo...@tno.nl>

Location<http://www.tno.nl/locations/DTS>



<http://www.tno.nl/>

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RE: [topbraid-users] Staying with official SHACL

2021-06-20 Thread &#x27;Bohms, H.M. (Michel)&#x27; via TopBraid Suite Users

Ok, even better
Thx (for your patience…)



Dr. ir. H.M. (Michel) Bohms
Scientist Specialist
Structural Reliability

T +31 (0)88 866 31 07
M +31 (0)63 038 12 20
E michel.bo...@tno.nl<mailto:michel.bo...@tno.nl>

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Van: topbraid-users@googlegroups.com  Namens 
Holger Knublauch
Verzonden: maandag 21 juni 2021 08:49
Aan: topbraid-users@googlegroups.com
Onderwerp: Re: [topbraid-users] Staying with official SHACL


In EDG, shapes can only be defined in Ontology asset collections (or files in 
the workspace). Any EDG Ontology will automatically import dash and tosh. 
Therefore, once you import a file into an EDG ontology, the ontolgy will 
already use dash and tosh automatically, so that the forms etc work as they 
should.
Holger


On 2021-06-21 4:44 pm, 'Bohms, H.M. (Michel)' via TopBraid Suite Users wrote:
Ahh, ok, these were the dependencies I was looking for! I guess Steve too.
So we have to remember to add in case of EDG-usage. Right?
(or is the use by EDG always via the shacl api so that is automatic?)



Dr. ir. H.M. (Michel) Bohms
Scientist Specialist
Structural Reliability

T +31 (0)88 866 31 07
M +31 (0)63 038 12 20
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Van: topbraid-users@googlegroups.com<mailto:topbraid-users@googlegroups.com> 
<mailto:topbraid-users@googlegroups.com> 
Namens Holger Knublauch
Verzonden: maandag 21 juni 2021 00:58
Aan: topbraid-users@googlegroups.com<mailto:topbraid-users@googlegroups.com>
Onderwerp: Re: [topbraid-users] Staying with official SHACL


In addition to the extra constraint components

http://datashapes.org/constraints.html

the dash namespace also imports the tosh namespace, which contains constraints 
on the SHACL metamodel and therefore is used to drive the forms in EDG.

What you do with the files generated with TopBraid outside of TopBraid is of 
course your own decision. I assume all standards-compliant SHACL validation 
engines will support at least SHACL Core without any mandatory owl:imports. In 
the SHACL API that I wrote, the code uses dash and tosh internally to identify 
the constraint components, so they are internally added in case they don't 
exist in the provided shapes graph. But this happens automatically.

Holger


On 2021-06-20 7:48 am, Steve Ray wrote:
Very cool! With bated breath, I tried it, and nothing blew up!

It would be good to know at some point what functionality I lose by directly 
importing
  owl:imports <http://www.w3.org/ns/shacl#<http://www.w3.org/ns/shacl>> ;
instead of
   owl:imports <http://datashapes.org/dash> ;

Steve




On Sat, Jun 19, 2021 at 3:36 AM David Price 
mailto:dpr...@topquadrant.com>> wrote:
Hi Steve and Michel

I’m not near my computer so cannot do it for you, but suggest replacing dash 
import with SHACL import and trying it. I think that’s ok.
Cheers,
David



On 19 Jun 2021, at 08:44, 'Bohms, H.M. (Michel)' via TopBraid Suite Users 
mailto:topbraid-users@googlegroups.com>> wrote:

I have exactly the same issue in CEN TC442/WG4/TG3 ….

I now have:

# baseURI: https://w3id.org/sml/shacl/def
# imports: https://w3id.org/sml/rdfs/def
# imports: http://datashapes.org/dash
# imports: http://qudt.org/schema/qudt
# imports: http://qudt.org/vocab/quantitykind
# imports: http://qudt.org/vocab/unit
# imports: http://www.w3.org/2004/02/skos/core
# imports: https://www.w3.org/2006/time
# prefix: sml

@prefix dash: <http://datashapes.org/dash#<http://datashapes.org/dash>> .
@prefix sml: <https://w3id.org/sml/def#<https://w3id.org/sml/def>> .
@prefix owl: <http://www.w3.org/2002/07/owl#<http://www.w3.org/2002/07/owl>> .
@prefix quantitykind: <http://qudt.org/vocab/quantitykind/> .
@prefix qudt: <http://qudt.org/schema/qudt/> .
@prefix rdf: 
<http://www.w3.org/1999/02/22-rdf-syntax-ns#<http://www.w3.org/1999/02/22-rdf-syntax-ns>>
 .
@pref

RE: [topbraid-users] Staying with official SHACL

2021-06-21 Thread &#x27;Bohms, H.M. (Michel)&#x27; via TopBraid Suite Users

Thx, good to know (we sometimes use free version in webinars)



Dr. ir. H.M. (Michel) Bohms
Scientist Specialist
Structural Reliability

T +31 (0)88 866 31 07
M +31 (0)63 038 12 20
E michel.bo...@tno.nl<mailto:michel.bo...@tno.nl>

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Van: topbraid-users@googlegroups.com  Namens 
Holger Knublauch
Verzonden: dinsdag 22 juni 2021 01:26
Aan: topbraid-users@googlegroups.com
Onderwerp: Re: [topbraid-users] Staying with official SHACL



On 22/06/2021 9:10 am, Steve Ray wrote:
Hi Holger,
Things are looking good on my end using TBC 7.0.1 and only importing the SHACL 
URI and not dash or tosh. Running SHACL reasoning and SHACL validation both 
seem to work reliably. I'm assuming that, as you mentioned, dash and/or tosh 
are brought in automatically if needed.

The only exception is a summer student working on the standards project who is 
using the TBC Free edition (which seems to have moved backwards to 6.0.1). It 
seems to choke when validating because it isn't finding some tosh objects.
(Caused by: java.lang.IllegalArgumentException: Shapes graph does not include 
tosh:http://datashapes.org/dash#DefaultValueTypeRule)

The workaround for the student is just to have him explicitly import dash.ttl 
whenever he wants to run the validator, but remove it before doing his git 
push. I know that you all aren't supporting TBC Free any more, but I just 
wanted to confirm that this is expected behavior.

Yes this sounds plausible. The SHACL engine in that version was different.

Holger



Steve



On Sun, Jun 20, 2021 at 3:58 PM Holger Knublauch 
mailto:hol...@topquadrant.com>> wrote:

In addition to the extra constraint components

http://datashapes.org/constraints.html

the dash namespace also imports the tosh namespace, which contains constraints 
on the SHACL metamodel and therefore is used to drive the forms in EDG.

What you do with the files generated with TopBraid outside of TopBraid is of 
course your own decision. I assume all standards-compliant SHACL validation 
engines will support at least SHACL Core without any mandatory owl:imports. In 
the SHACL API that I wrote, the code uses dash and tosh internally to identify 
the constraint components, so they are internally added in case they don't 
exist in the provided shapes graph. But this happens automatically.

Holger


On 2021-06-20 7:48 am, Steve Ray wrote:
Very cool! With bated breath, I tried it, and nothing blew up!

It would be good to know at some point what functionality I lose by directly 
importing
owl:imports <http://www.w3.org/ns/shacl#<http://www.w3.org/ns/shacl>> ;
instead of
  owl:imports <http://datashapes.org/dash> ;
Steve



On Sat, Jun 19, 2021 at 3:36 AM David Price 
mailto:dpr...@topquadrant.com>> wrote:
Hi Steve and Michel

I’m not near my computer so cannot do it for you, but suggest replacing dash 
import with SHACL import and trying it. I think that’s ok.
Cheers,
David


On 19 Jun 2021, at 08:44, 'Bohms, H.M. (Michel)' via TopBraid Suite Users 
mailto:topbraid-users@googlegroups.com>> wrote:

I have exactly the same issue in CEN TC442/WG4/TG3 ….

I now have:

# baseURI: https://w3id.org/sml/shacl/def
# imports: https://w3id.org/sml/rdfs/def
# imports: http://datashapes.org/dash
# imports: http://qudt.org/schema/qudt
# imports: http://qudt.org/vocab/quantitykind
# imports: http://qudt.org/vocab/unit
# imports: http://www.w3.org/2004/02/skos/core
# imports: https://www.w3.org/2006/time
# prefix: sml

@prefix dash: <http://datashapes.org/dash#<http://datashapes.org/dash>> .
@prefix sml: <https://w3id.org/sml/def#<https://w3id.org/sml/def>> .
@prefix owl: <http://www.w3.org/2002/07/owl#<http://www.w3.org/2002/07/owl>> .
@prefix quantitykind: <http://qudt.org/vocab/quantitykind/> .
@prefix qudt: <http://qudt.org/schema/qudt/> .
@prefix rdf: 
<http://www.w3.org/1999/02/22-rdf-syntax-ns#<http://www.w3.org/1999/02/22-rdf-syntax-ns>>
 .
@prefix rdfs: 
<http://www.w3.org/2000/01/rdf-schema#<http://www.w3.org/2000/01/rdf-schema>> .
@prefix sh: <http://www.w3.org/ns/shacl#<http://www.w3.org/ns/shacl>> .
@prefix skos: 
<http://www.w3.org/2004/02/skos/core#<http://www.w3.org/2004/02/skos/core>> .
@prefix time: <http://www.w3.org/2006/time#<http://www.w3.org/2006/time>> .
@prefix unit: <http://qudt.org/vocab/unit/> .
@prefix xsd: 
<http://www.w

[topbraid-users] simple shacl question

2021-06-23 Thread &#x27;Bohms, H.M. (Michel)&#x27; via TopBraid Suite Users

Just checking...

Instead of:

ex:BridgeShape
  a sh:NodeShape ;
  sh:targetClass ex:Bridge ;
  sh:property [
sh:path ex:height ;
sh:minCount 1 ;
] ;
  sh:property [
sh:path sml:hasPart ;
sh:minCount 1 ;
sh:maxCount 1 ;
sh:class ex:Deck ;
] ;
.

I can say:

ex:Bridge
  a sh:NodeShape ;
  sh:property [
sh:path ex:height ;
sh:minCount 1 ;
] ;
  sh:property [
sh:path sml:hasPart ;
sh:minCount 1 ;
sh:maxCount 1 ;
sh:class ex:Deck ;
] ;
.

Right?
Thx michel



Dr. ir. H.M. (Michel) Bohms
Scientist Specialist
Structural Reliability

T +31 (0)88 866 31 07
M +31 (0)63 038 12 20
E michel.bo...@tno.nl

Location



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[topbraid-users] RE: simple shacl question

2021-06-23 Thread &#x27;Bohms, H.M. (Michel)&#x27; via TopBraid Suite Users

And then similar question for:

ex:heightShape
  a sh:NodeShape ;
  sh:targetObjectsOf ex:height ;
  sh:class sml:QuantityValue ;
.

Can it be:

ex:height
  a sh:NodeShape ;
  sh:class sml:QuantityValue ;
.



Dr. ir. H.M. (Michel) Bohms
Scientist Specialist
Structural Reliability

T +31 (0)88 866 31 07
M +31 (0)63 038 12 20
E michel.bo...@tno.nl

Location



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Van: Bohms, H.M. (Michel)
Verzonden: woensdag 23 juni 2021 09:25
Aan: topbraid-users@googlegroups.com
Onderwerp: simple shacl question

Just checking...

Instead of:

ex:BridgeShape
  a sh:NodeShape ;
  sh:targetClass ex:Bridge ;
  sh:property [
sh:path ex:height ;
sh:minCount 1 ;
] ;
  sh:property [
sh:path sml:hasPart ;
sh:minCount 1 ;
sh:maxCount 1 ;
sh:class ex:Deck ;
] ;
.

I can say:

ex:Bridge
  a sh:NodeShape ;
  sh:property [
sh:path ex:height ;
sh:minCount 1 ;
] ;
  sh:property [
sh:path sml:hasPart ;
sh:minCount 1 ;
sh:maxCount 1 ;
sh:class ex:Deck ;
] ;
.

Right?
Thx michel



Dr. ir. H.M. (Michel) Bohms
Scientist Specialist
Structural Reliability

T +31 (0)88 866 31 07
M +31 (0)63 038 12 20
E michel.bo...@tno.nl

Location



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RE: [topbraid-users] simple shacl question

2021-06-23 Thread &#x27;Bohms, H.M. (Michel)&#x27; via TopBraid Suite Users

Yes, ok

The ex:Bridge a rdfs:Class is in the imported RDFS ontology!



Dr. ir. H.M. (Michel) Bohms
Scientist Specialist
Structural Reliability

T +31 (0)88 866 31 07
M +31 (0)63 038 12 20
E michel.bo...@tno.nl<mailto:michel.bo...@tno.nl>

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Van: topbraid-users@googlegroups.com  Namens 
Irene Polikoff
Verzonden: woensdag 23 juni 2021 09:29
Aan: topbraid-users@googlegroups.com
Onderwerp: Re: [topbraid-users] simple shacl question


ex:Bridge
  a sh:NodeShape, owl:Class ; (or rdfs:Class)
  sh:property [
sh:path ex:height ;
sh:minCount 1 ;
] ;
  sh:property [
sh:path sml:hasPart ;
sh:minCount 1 ;
sh:maxCount 1 ;
sh:class ex:Deck ;
] ;
.


This is necessary to establish the target.


On Jun 23, 2021, at 3:25 AM, 'Bohms, H.M. (Michel)' via TopBraid Suite Users 
mailto:topbraid-users@googlegroups.com>> wrote:

Just checking…

Instead of:

ex:BridgeShape
  a sh:NodeShape ;
  sh:targetClass ex:Bridge ;
  sh:property [
sh:path ex:height ;
sh:minCount 1 ;
] ;
  sh:property [
sh:path sml:hasPart ;
sh:minCount 1 ;
sh:maxCount 1 ;
sh:class ex:Deck ;
] ;
.

I can say:

ex:Bridge
  a sh:NodeShape ;
  sh:property [
sh:path ex:height ;
sh:minCount 1 ;
] ;
  sh:property [
sh:path sml:hasPart ;
sh:minCount 1 ;
sh:maxCount 1 ;
sh:class ex:Deck ;
] ;
.

Right?
Thx michel



Dr. ir. H.M. (Michel) Bohms
Scientist Specialist
Structural Reliability

T +31 (0)88 866 31 07
M +31 (0)63 038 12 20
E michel.bo...@tno.nl<mailto:michel.bo...@tno.nl>

Location<http://www.tno.nl/locations/DTS>



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RE: [topbraid-users] simple shacl question

2021-06-23 Thread &#x27;Bohms, H.M. (Michel)&#x27; via TopBraid Suite Users

Right, see previous (its there imported from other graph (same ns))



Dr. ir. H.M. (Michel) Bohms
Scientist Specialist
Structural Reliability

T +31 (0)88 866 31 07
M +31 (0)63 038 12 20
E michel.bo...@tno.nl<mailto:michel.bo...@tno.nl>

Location<http://www.tno.nl/locations/DTS>



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Van: topbraid-users@googlegroups.com  Namens 
Holger Knublauch
Verzonden: woensdag 23 juni 2021 09:30
Aan: topbraid-users@googlegroups.com
Onderwerp: Re: [topbraid-users] simple shacl question



On 2021-06-23 5:25 pm, 'Bohms, H.M. (Michel)' via TopBraid Suite Users wrote:
Just checking…

Instead of:

ex:BridgeShape
  a sh:NodeShape ;
  sh:targetClass ex:Bridge ;
  sh:property [
sh:path ex:height ;
sh:minCount 1 ;
] ;
  sh:property [
sh:path sml:hasPart ;
sh:minCount 1 ;
sh:maxCount 1 ;
sh:class ex:Deck ;
] ;
.

I can say:

ex:Bridge
  a sh:NodeShape ;
  sh:property [
sh:path ex:height ;
sh:minCount 1 ;
] ;
  sh:property [
sh:path sml:hasPart ;
sh:minCount 1 ;
sh:maxCount 1 ;
sh:class ex:Deck ;
] ;
.

... only if you also say ex:Bridge rdf:type owl:Class (or rdfs:Class). If a 
class is also a node shape then you don't need a targetClass statement. See

https://www.w3.org/TR/shacl/#implicit-targetClass

Holger



Right?
Thx michel



Dr. ir. H.M. (Michel) Bohms
Scientist Specialist
Structural Reliability

T +31 (0)88 866 31 07
M +31 (0)63 038 12 20
E michel.bo...@tno.nl<mailto:michel.bo...@tno.nl>

Location<http://www.tno.nl/locations/DTS>



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RE: [topbraid-users] simple shacl question

2021-06-23 Thread &#x27;Bohms, H.M. (Michel)&#x27; via TopBraid Suite Users

So I can do also the second option here?
( the ‘ex:height a rdfs:Property’ this time is again in an imported graph)



Dr. ir. H.M. (Michel) Bohms
Scientist Specialist
Structural Reliability

T +31 (0)88 866 31 07
M +31 (0)63 038 12 20
E michel.bo...@tno.nl<mailto:michel.bo...@tno.nl>

Location<http://www.tno.nl/locations/DTS>



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Van: topbraid-users@googlegroups.com  Namens 
Irene Polikoff
Verzonden: woensdag 23 juni 2021 09:32
Aan: topbraid-users@googlegroups.com
Onderwerp: Re: [topbraid-users] simple shacl question

You need a target - either explicitly by using one the SHACL target statements 
or implicitly by saying that it is a class as well as a node shape


On Jun 23, 2021, at 3:27 AM, 'Bohms, H.M. (Michel)' via TopBraid Suite Users 
mailto:topbraid-users@googlegroups.com>> wrote:

And then similar question for:

ex:heightShape
  a sh:NodeShape ;
  sh:targetObjectsOf ex:height ;
  sh:class sml:QuantityValue ;
.

Can it be:

ex:height
  a sh:NodeShape ;
  sh:class sml:QuantityValue ;


The first shape targets all resources that are objects in the ?s ex:height ?o 
triples.

The second one does not target anything. If you make it a class, it will target 
all resources of the ex:height.

.



Dr. ir. H.M. (Michel) Bohms
Scientist Specialist
Structural Reliability

T +31 (0)88 866 31 07
M +31 (0)63 038 12 20
E michel.bo...@tno.nl<mailto:michel.bo...@tno.nl>

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Van: Bohms, H.M. (Michel)
Verzonden: woensdag 23 juni 2021 09:25
Aan: topbraid-users@googlegroups.com<mailto:topbraid-users@googlegroups.com>
Onderwerp: simple shacl question

Just checking…

Instead of:

ex:BridgeShape
  a sh:NodeShape ;
  sh:targetClass ex:Bridge ;
  sh:property [
sh:path ex:height ;
sh:minCount 1 ;
] ;
  sh:property [
sh:path sml:hasPart ;
sh:minCount 1 ;
sh:maxCount 1 ;
sh:class ex:Deck ;
] ;
.

I can say:

ex:Bridge
  a sh:NodeShape ;
  sh:property [
sh:path ex:height ;
sh:minCount 1 ;
] ;
  sh:property [
sh:path sml:hasPart ;
sh:minCount 1 ;
sh:maxCount 1 ;
sh:class ex:Deck ;
] ;
.

Right?
Thx michel



Dr. ir. H.M. (Michel) Bohms
Scientist Specialist
Structural Reliability

T +31 (0)88 866 31 07
M +31 (0)63 038 12 20
E michel.bo...@tno.nl<mailto:michel.bo...@tno.nl>

Location<http://www.tno.nl/locations/DTS>



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[topbraid-users] shacl issue

2021-06-23 Thread &#x27;Bohms, H.M. (Michel)&#x27; via TopBraid Suite Users

So in total i have now:

# baseURI: https://w3id.org/sml-example/shacl/def
# imports: https://w3id.org/sml/shacl/def
# imports: https://w3id.org/sml-example/rdfs/def
# prefix: ex

@prefix ex:  .
@prefix owl:  .
@prefix quantitykind:  .
@prefix qudt:  .
@prefix rdf:  .
@prefix rdfs:  .
@prefix sml:  .
@prefix time:  .
@prefix unit:  .
@prefix xsd:  .


  a owl:Ontology ;
  owl:imports  ;
  owl:imports  ;
.
ex:Bridge
  a sh:NodeShape ;
  sh:property [
sh:path ex:height ;
sh:minCount 1 ;
] ;
  sh:property [
sh:path sml:hasPart ;
sh:minCount 1 ;
sh:maxCount 1 ;
sh:class ex:Deck ;
] ;
.
ex:Deck
  a sh:NodeShape ;
  sh:property [
sh:path sml:hasPart ;
sh:minCount 1 ;
sh:class ex:Slab ;
] ;
.
ex:Vehicle
  a sh:NodeShape ;
  sh:property [
sh:path ex:loadLevel ;
sh:class ex:LoadLevelType ;
sh:in (ex:Light ex:Normal ex:Heavy ) ;
] ;
  sh:property [
sh:path ex:hasLegalSpeed ;
sh:datatype xsd:boolean ;
] ;
.
ex:accuracy
  a sh:NodeShape ;
  sh:class sml:QuantityValue ;
.
ex:currentlyServingVehicle
  a sh:NodeShape ;
  sh:class ex:Vehicle ;
.
ex:height
  a sh:NodeShape ;
  sh:class sml:QuantityValue ;
.
ex:velocity
  a sh:NodeShape ;
  sh:class sml:QuantityValue ;
.

Where the typing is in the imported rdfs-graph:

# baseURI: https://w3id.org/sml-example/rdfs/def
# imports: https://w3id.org/sml/rdfs/def
# imports: https://w3id.org/sml-example/skos/term
# prefix: ex

@prefix ex-term:  .
@prefix ex:  .
@prefix owl:  .
@prefix quantitykind:  .
@prefix qudt:  .
@prefix rdf:  .
@prefix rdfs:  .
@prefix sml:  .
@prefix time:  .
@prefix unit:  .
@prefix xsd:  .


  a owl:Ontology ;
  owl:imports  ;
  owl:imports  ;
.
ex:Bridge
  a rdfs:Class ;
  rdfs:isDefinedBy ex-term:Bridge ;
  rdfs:subClassOf sml:PhysicalObject ;
.
ex:Deck
  a rdfs:Class ;
  rdfs:isDefinedBy ex-term:Deck ;
  rdfs:subClassOf sml:PhysicalObject ;
.
ex:Heavy
  a ex:LoadLevelType ;
  rdfs:isDefinedBy ex-term:Heavy ;
.
ex:Light
  a ex:LoadLevelType ;
  rdfs:isDefinedBy ex-term:Light ;
.
ex:LoadLevelType
  a rdfs:Class ;
  rdfs:isDefinedBy ex-term:LoadLevelType ;
  rdfs:subClassOf sml:EnumerationType ;
.
ex:NonGeometricProperties
  a rdfs:Container ;
  rdfs:isDefinedBy ex-term:NonGeometricProperties ;
  rdfs:member ex:loadLevel ;
  rdfs:member ex:velocity ;
.
ex:Normal
  a ex:LoadLevelType ;
  rdfs:isDefinedBy ex-term:Normal ;
.
ex:Slab
  a rdfs:Class ;
  rdfs:isDefinedBy ex-term:Slab ;
  rdfs:subClassOf sml:PhysicalObject ;
.
ex:Vehicle
  a rdfs:Class ;
  rdfs:subClassOf sml:PhysicalObject ;
.
ex:accuracy
  a rdf:Property ;
  rdfs:isDefinedBy ex-term:accuracy ;
  rdfs:range sml:QuantityValue ;
.
ex:currentlyServingVehicle
  a rdf:Property ;
  rdfs:isDefinedBy ex-term:currentlyServingVehicle ;
  rdfs:range ex:Vehicle ;
.
ex:hasLegalSpeed
  a rdf:Property ;
  rdfs:isDefinedBy ex-term:hasLegalSpeed ;
  rdfs:domain ex:Vehicle ;
  rdfs:range xsd:boolean ;
.
ex:height
  a rdf:Property ;
  rdfs:isDefinedBy ex-term:height ;
  rdfs:range sml:QuantityValue ;
  sml:quantityKind quantitykind:Length ;
.
ex:loadLevel
  a rdf:Property ;
  rdfs:isDefinedBy ex-term:loadLevel ;
  rdfs:domain ex:Vehicle ;
  rdfs:range ex:LoadLevelType ;
.
ex:velocity
  a rdf:Property ;
  rdfs:isDefinedBy ex-term:velocity ;
  rdfs:range sml:QuantityValue ;
  sml:quantityKind quantitykind:Speed ;
.

And the terminology is in a separate skos graph again, but this aside...




Dr. ir. H.M. (Michel) Bohms
Scientist Specialist
Structural Reliability

T +31 (0)88 866 31 07
M +31 (0)63 038 12 20
E michel.bo...@tno.nl

Location



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[topbraid-users] sh import?

2021-06-23 Thread &#x27;Bohms, H.M. (Michel)&#x27; via TopBraid Suite Users

Is it needed to explicitly import sh?

Or is it like rdfs, rdfs, owl, xsd etc.

(I used to import dash but given that issue...etc.)



Dr. ir. H.M. (Michel) Bohms
Scientist Specialist
Structural Reliability

T +31 (0)88 866 31 07
M +31 (0)63 038 12 20
E michel.bo...@tno.nl

Location



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[topbraid-users] no individuals

2021-06-23 Thread &#x27;Bohms, H.M. (Michel)&#x27; via TopBraid Suite Users

Please advice, why i do not see individuals (like Bridge_1) when opening 
sml-example.ttl

This data file, imports all others from skos, rdfs, owl and shacl that all open 
fine by themselves.

Turtle seems fine too in validator.



Dr. ir. H.M. (Michel) Bohms
Scientist Specialist
Structural Reliability

T +31 (0)88 866 31 07
M +31 (0)63 038 12 20
E michel.bo...@tno.nl

Location



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sml-skos.ttl
Description: sml-skos.ttl

RE: [topbraid-users] sh import?

2021-06-23 Thread &#x27;Bohms, H.M. (Michel)&#x27; via TopBraid Suite Users

More like:

Is sh in the league of xsd/rdf/rdfs/owl (not imported)

Or in the league of others being imported explicitly

Dr. ir. H.M. (Michel) Bohms
Scientist Specialist
Structural Reliability

T +31 (0)88 866 31 07
M +31 (0)63 038 12 20
E michel.bo...@tno.nl<mailto:michel.bo...@tno.nl>

Location<http://www.tno.nl/locations/DTS>

[cid:image001.gif@01D76883.4D995D60]<http://www.tno.nl/>

Van: topbraid-users@googlegroups.com Namens
Holger Knublauch
Verzonden: woensdag 23 juni 2021 22:03
Aan: topbraid-users@googlegroups.com
Onderwerp: Re: [topbraid-users] sh import?

On 23/06/2021 8:37 pm, 'Bohms, H.M. (Michel)' via TopBraid Suite Users wrote:
Is it needed to explicitly import sh?

For what application?

In general, owl:imports are a good thing. They make the semantics of the used
resources more explicit and transparent. If we skip them here, where would this
end: use skos:Concept without importing SKOS Core? Makes no sense to me.

Holger

Or is it like rdfs, rdfs, owl, xsd etc.

(I used to import dash but given that issue…etc.)

Dr. ir. H.M. (Michel) Bohms
Scientist Specialist
Structural Reliability

T +31 (0)88 866 31 07
M +31 (0)63 038 12 20
E michel.bo...@tno.nl<mailto:michel.bo...@tno.nl>

Location<http://www.tno.nl/locations/DTS>

[cid:image001.gif@01D76883.4D995D60]<http://www.tno.nl/>

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RE: [topbraid-users] sh import?

2021-06-23 Thread &#x27;Bohms, H.M. (Michel)&#x27; via TopBraid Suite Users

My view…sh would fit well in that list of languages (xsd, rdf, rdfs, owl, …) 
that are handled without explicit import…

???

Counterargument?



Dr. ir. H.M. (Michel) Bohms
Scientist Specialist
Structural Reliability

T +31 (0)88 866 31 07
M +31 (0)63 038 12 20
E michel.bo...@tno.nl<mailto:michel.bo...@tno.nl>

Location<http://www.tno.nl/locations/DTS>



[cid:image001.gif@01D76884.1F9A59E0]<http://www.tno.nl/>

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Van: 'Bohms, H.M. (Michel)' via TopBraid Suite Users 

Verzonden: woensdag 23 juni 2021 22:59
Aan: topbraid-users@googlegroups.com
Onderwerp: RE: [topbraid-users] sh import?

More like:

Is sh in the league of xsd/rdf/rdfs/owl (not imported)

Or in the league of others being imported explicitly



Dr. ir. H.M. (Michel) Bohms
Scientist Specialist
Structural Reliability

T +31 (0)88 866 31 07
M +31 (0)63 038 12 20
E michel.bo...@tno.nl<mailto:michel.bo...@tno.nl>

Location<http://www.tno.nl/locations/DTS>



[cid:image001.gif@01D76884.1F9A59E0]<http://www.tno.nl/>

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Van: topbraid-users@googlegroups.com<mailto:topbraid-users@googlegroups.com> 
mailto:topbraid-users@googlegroups.com>> 
Namens Holger Knublauch
Verzonden: woensdag 23 juni 2021 22:03
Aan: topbraid-users@googlegroups.com<mailto:topbraid-users@googlegroups.com>
Onderwerp: Re: [topbraid-users] sh import?



On 23/06/2021 8:37 pm, 'Bohms, H.M. (Michel)' via TopBraid Suite Users wrote:
Is it needed to explicitly import sh?

For what application?

In general, owl:imports are a good thing. They make the semantics of the used 
resources more explicit and transparent. If we skip them here, where would this 
end: use skos:Concept without importing SKOS Core? Makes no sense to me.

Holger



Or is it like rdfs, rdfs, owl, xsd etc.

(I used to import dash but given that issue…etc.)



Dr. ir. H.M. (Michel) Bohms
Scientist Specialist
Structural Reliability

T +31 (0)88 866 31 07
M +31 (0)63 038 12 20
E michel.bo...@tno.nl<mailto:michel.bo...@tno.nl>

Location<http://www.tno.nl/locations/DTS>



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[topbraid-users] RE: no individuals

2021-06-23 Thread &#x27;Bohms, H.M. (Michel)&#x27; via TopBraid Suite Users

Solved: i had to introduce another graph uri for the data (since other ns
uri...).
Could not be both "ex:"

@prefix exdata: .
@prefix ex: .

Now fine...

Dr. ir. H.M. (Michel) Bohms
Scientist Specialist
Structural Reliability

T +31 (0)88 866 31 07
M +31 (0)63 038 12 20
E michel.bo...@tno.nl

Location

[cid:image001.gif@01D76885.56434FF0]

Van: Bohms, H.M. (Michel)
Verzonden: woensdag 23 juni 2021 17:19
Aan: 'topbraid-users@googlegroups.com'
Onderwerp: no individuals

Please advice, why i do not see individuals (like Bridge_1) when opening
sml-example.ttl

This data file, imports all others from skos, rdfs, owl and shacl that all open
fine by themselves.

Turtle seems fine too in validator.

Dr. ir. H.M. (Michel) Bohms
Scientist Specialist
Structural Reliability

T +31 (0)88 866 31 07
M +31 (0)63 038 12 20
E michel.bo...@tno.nl

Location

[cid:image001.gif@01D76885.56434FF0]

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[topbraid-users] RE: no individuals

2021-06-23 Thread &#x27;Bohms, H.M. (Michel)&#x27; via TopBraid Suite Users

Correction, should be:

Solved: i had to introduce another prefix for the data (since other ns uri…).
Could not be both “ex:”

@prefix exdata: <https://w3id.org/sml-example/id#> .
@prefix ex: <https://w3id.org/sml-example/def#> .

Now fine…





Dr. ir. H.M. (Michel) Bohms
Scientist Specialist
Structural Reliability

T +31 (0)88 866 31 07
M +31 (0)63 038 12 20
E michel.bo...@tno.nl<mailto:michel.bo...@tno.nl>

Location<http://www.tno.nl/locations/DTS>



[cid:image001.gif@01D76885.DA01D050]<http://www.tno.nl/>

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Van: 'Bohms, H.M. (Michel)' via TopBraid Suite Users 

Verzonden: woensdag 23 juni 2021 23:13
Aan: topbraid-users@googlegroups.com
Onderwerp: [topbraid-users] RE: no individuals

Solved: i had to introduce another graph uri for the data (since other ns uri…).
Could not be both “ex:”

@prefix exdata: <https://w3id.org/sml-example/id#> .
@prefix ex: <https://w3id.org/sml-example/def#> .

Now fine…



Dr. ir. H.M. (Michel) Bohms
Scientist Specialist
Structural Reliability

T +31 (0)88 866 31 07
M +31 (0)63 038 12 20
E michel.bo...@tno.nl<mailto:michel.bo...@tno.nl>

Location<http://www.tno.nl/locations/DTS>



[cid:image001.gif@01D76885.DA01D050]<http://www.tno.nl/>

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Van: Bohms, H.M. (Michel)
Verzonden: woensdag 23 juni 2021 17:19
Aan: 'topbraid-users@googlegroups.com' 
mailto:topbraid-users@googlegroups.com>>
Onderwerp: no individuals

Please advice, why i do not see individuals (like Bridge_1) when opening 
sml-example.ttl

This data file, imports all others from skos, rdfs, owl and shacl that all open 
fine by themselves.

Turtle seems fine too in validator.



Dr. ir. H.M. (Michel) Bohms
Scientist Specialist
Structural Reliability

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RE: [topbraid-users] sh import?

2021-06-23 Thread &#x27;Bohms, H.M. (Michel)&#x27; via TopBraid Suite Users

Hi Holger

I see the issue.

So reformulated my question is:

Is shacl import also automated now (like eg rdf)?
(It seems not, since deleting the import also deletes the shacl tab)

If not, should be it be? (consistently, since it is also a basic language vocab)
Or not, because it is not that essential like rdf(s) etc. ie not breaking code 
etc.)


But generalizing I see you point that ‘being essential’ depends in the end on 
what you want to do with it….(forms etc.)
(and explicit import only works if the stuff imported is perfect…)

All in all, I think, shacl getting more and more important, it would be best to 
automatically load it.
(in other words: TBBC being by default a RDF/RDFS/OWL/SHACL-tool).

For now, I’ll keep the sh imports explicitly in…..

Gr michel



Dr. ir. H.M. (Michel) Bohms
Scientist Specialist
Structural Reliability

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Van: topbraid-users@googlegroups.com  Namens 
Holger Knublauch
Verzonden: donderdag 24 juni 2021 00:58
Aan: topbraid-users@googlegroups.com
Onderwerp: Re: [topbraid-users] sh import?



On 2021-06-24 7:04 am, 'Bohms, H.M. (Michel)' via TopBraid Suite Users wrote:
My view…sh would fit well in that list of languages (xsd, rdf, rdfs, owl, …) 
that are handled without explicit import…

What does it even mean to be "handled". In all TopBraid tools, there is a 
hidden automated import of system triples including XSD, RDF etc. Without that, 
no forms and other algorithms would work. Algorithms wouldn't even know that 
owl:Class rdfs:subClassOf rdfs:Class. The design of OWL in this respect is a 
failure, and I believe they don't want people to import the metamodel because 
it broke some OWL DL algorithms with the introduction of metaclasses. Having to 
implement some special hidden graph is ugly.

Holger



???

Counterargument?



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Scientist Specialist
Structural Reliability

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Van: 'Bohms, H.M. (Michel)' via TopBraid Suite Users 
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Verzonden: woensdag 23 juni 2021 22:59
Aan: topbraid-users@googlegroups.com<mailto:topbraid-users@googlegroups.com>
Onderwerp: RE: [topbraid-users] sh import?

More like:

Is sh in the league of xsd/rdf/rdfs/owl (not imported)

Or in the league of others being imported explicitly



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mailto:topbraid-users@googlegroups.com>> 
Namens Holger Knublauch
Verzonden: woensdag 23 juni 2021 22:03
Aan: topbraid-users@googlegroups.com<mailto:topbraid-users@googlegroups.com>
Onderwerp: Re: [topbraid-users] sh import?



On 23/06/2021 8:37 pm, 'Bohms, H.M. (Michel)' via TopBraid Suite Users wrote:
Is it needed to explicitly import sh?

For what application?

In general, owl:imports are a good thing. They make the semantics of the used 
resources more explicit and transparent. If we skip them here, where would this 
end: use skos:Concept without importing SKOS Core? Makes no sense to me.

Holger



Or is it like rdfs, rdfs, owl,

RE: [topbraid-users] sh import?

2021-06-24 Thread &#x27;Bohms, H.M. (Michel)&#x27; via TopBraid Suite Users

Yes in case of ‘choice’ checkbox is fine
However we also have scenarios where both OWL and SHACL are relevant (say for 
use cases involving inference and verification).
Or in future where we might want to go shacl-only (blog irene…).

Those scenarios would benefit from automatic shacl import….



Dr. ir. H.M. (Michel) Bohms
Scientist Specialist
Structural Reliability

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Van: topbraid-users@googlegroups.com  Namens 
David Price
Verzonden: donderdag 24 juni 2021 09:25
Aan: topbraid-users@googlegroups.com
Onderwerp: Re: [topbraid-users] sh import?


On 24 Jun 2021, at 07:21, 'Bohms, H.M. (Michel)' via TopBraid Suite Users 
mailto:topbraid-users@googlegroups.com>> wrote:

Hi Holger

I see the issue.

So reformulated my question is:

Is shacl import also automated now (like eg rdf)?
(It seems not, since deleting the import also deletes the shacl tab)

If not, should be it be? (consistently, since it is also a basic language vocab)
Or not, because it is not that essential like rdf(s) etc. ie not breaking code 
etc.)

But generalizing I see you point that ‘being essential’ depends in the end on 
what you want to do with it….(forms etc.)
(and explicit import only works if the stuff imported is perfect…)

All in all, I think, shacl getting more and more important, it would be best to 
automatically load it.
(in other words: TBBC being by default a RDF/RDFS/OWL/SHACL-tool).

Hi Michel,

If users want SHACL then in TBC use File, New, SHACL Shapes file and there’s a 
checkbox to decide initial imports of dash or pure SHACL.

If users want RDFS/OWL then use File, New, RDF File.

TBC users have control.

Cheers,
David





For now, I’ll keep the sh imports explicitly in…..

Gr michel



Dr. ir. H.M. (Michel) Bohms
Scientist Specialist
Structural Reliability

T +31 (0)88 866 31 07
M +31 (0)63 038 12 20
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mailto:topbraid-users@googlegroups.com>> 
Namens Holger Knublauch
Verzonden: donderdag 24 juni 2021 00:58
Aan: topbraid-users@googlegroups.com<mailto:topbraid-users@googlegroups.com>
Onderwerp: Re: [topbraid-users] sh import?


On 2021-06-24 7:04 am, 'Bohms, H.M. (Michel)' via TopBraid Suite Users wrote:
My view…sh would fit well in that list of languages (xsd, rdf, rdfs, owl, …) 
that are handled without explicit import…
What does it even mean to be "handled". In all TopBraid tools, there is a 
hidden automated import of system triples including XSD, RDF etc. Without that, 
no forms and other algorithms would work. Algorithms wouldn't even know that 
owl:Class rdfs:subClassOf rdfs:Class. The design of OWL in this respect is a 
failure, and I believe they don't want people to import the metamodel because 
it broke some OWL DL algorithms with the introduction of metaclasses. Having to 
implement some special hidden graph is ugly.
Holger


???

Counterargument?



Dr. ir. H.M. (Michel) Bohms
Scientist Specialist
Structural Reliability

T +31 (0)88 866 31 07
M +31 (0)63 038 12 20
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[topbraid-users] imports

2021-06-24 Thread &#x27;Bohms, H.M. (Michel)&#x27; via TopBraid Suite Users

Assume I have:


(3/4)  SKOS concepten schema;

(3/4)  RDFS ontologie (importeert het SKOS schema);

(3/4)  OWL ontologie (importeert de RDFS ontologie);

(3/4)  SHACL ontologie (importeert de RDFS ontologie[1]).


All addressing complementary aspects...



  1.  How needed is the RDFS import by OWL? (guess not)
  2.  Idem for RDFS import by SHACL? (or OWL ignoring the owl-stuff)

Think 1. Can be out, but I doubt about 2. (does the shalcl shape need the class 
working with implicit shapes so no target classes)



Dr. ir. H.M. (Michel) Bohms
Scientist Specialist
Structural Reliability

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[1] Kan eventueel ook de OWL ontologie zijn omdat SHACL de OWL-aspecten 
simpelweg negeert. Dit geldt niet andersom: de OWL ontologie moet niet de SHACL 
graaf importeren want OWL is strikter.

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[topbraid-users] label position

2021-06-29 Thread &#x27;Bohms, H.M. (Michel)&#x27; via TopBraid Suite Users

Dear All,

We use the pattern:

sml-term:Activity

a skos:Concept ;

skos:broader sml-term:Entity ;

skos:definition "An activity is something possibly or actually happening in
space and time"@en ;

skos:prefLabel "Activity"@en ;

sml:Activity

a rdfs:Class ;

rdfs:isDefinedBy sml-term:Activity ;

rdfs:subClassOf sml:Entity ;

But this means that the label is only indirectly available for sml:Activity
(via "isDefinedBy.prefLabel")

Is this an issue? (many tools like to have a direct label for their classes)
Better solutions?
(I'd like to define only once, not double; label feels naturally close to
definition; maybe only prefLabel to rdfs-variant and leave altLabel/definition
at skos?)

Thx for advice,
Michel

Dr. ir. H.M. (Michel) Bohms
Scientist Specialist
Structural Reliability

T +31 (0)88 866 31 07
M +31 (0)63 038 12 20
E michel.bo...@tno.nl

Location

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RE: [topbraid-users] label position

2021-06-29 Thread &#x27;Bohms, H.M. (Michel)&#x27; via TopBraid Suite Users

Hi David

I see your point: “better use skos only separate from rdfs/owl/shacl”

But ok we said it would be handy to combine (many parties already did in NL 
like Cadastre).

But then it seems we have to double….which goes a bit against the principle of 
separation of concerns….

Ie also (red):


sml:Activity

  a rdfs:Class ;

  rdfs:isDefinedBy sml-term:Activity ;

  rdfs:subClassOf sml:Entity ;

  skos:definition "An activity is something possibly or actually happening in 
space and time"@en ;

  skos:prefLabel "Activity"@en ;

.

I hoped for less doubling like:


sml:Activity

  a rdfs:Class ;

  rdfs:isDefinedBy sml-term:Activity ;

  rdfs:subClassOf sml:Entity ;

  skos:prefLabel "Activity"@en ;

.

Isn’t the skos:definition also for human interpretation only so that it can 
stays at skos-side?

Wrt tools expecting labels..if I rember right edg also likes/needs labels right?

If edg has no issue I might stay with the current approach (only having 
uris/names) for rdfs/owl/shacl side.

michel





Dr. ir. H.M. (Michel) Bohms
Scientist Specialist
Structural Reliability

T +31 (0)88 866 31 07
M +31 (0)63 038 12 20
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Van: topbraid-users@googlegroups.com  Namens 
David Price
Verzonden: dinsdag 29 juni 2021 12:37
Aan: topbraid-users@googlegroups.com
CC: Benno Koehorst ; Sander Stolk 

Onderwerp: Re: [topbraid-users] label position




On 29 Jun 2021, at 08:46, 'Bohms, H.M. (Michel)' via TopBraid Suite Users 
mailto:topbraid-users@googlegroups.com>> wrote:


Dear All,

We use the pattern:



sml-term:Activity

  a skos:Concept ;

  skos:broader sml-term:Entity ;

  skos:definition "An activity is something possibly or actually happening in 
space and time"@en ;

  skos:prefLabel "Activity"@en ;

.



sml:Activity

  a rdfs:Class ;

  rdfs:isDefinedBy sml-term:Activity ;

  rdfs:subClassOf sml:Entity ;

.

But this means that the label is only indirectly available for sml:Activity 
(via “isDefinedBy.prefLabel”)

Is this an issue? (many tools like to have a direct label for their classes)

I imagine tools will use one of the local name or perhaps URI or perhaps 
prefixed name. Being an issue depends on use case (i.e. no problem at all if 
for data exchange but perhaps for a human looking at a UI).


Better solutions?
(I’d like to define only once, not double;

Not possible.


label feels naturally close to definition; maybe only prefLabel to rdfs-variant 
and leave altLabel/definition at skos?)

There are two different things with different URIs. They do not “share” 
properties. That’s just how RDF and RDFS/OWL and SKOS work, so will not 
surprise anyone or any tool. It’s unclear if you expect them to ever be used 
together, but as SKOS is an OWL ontology and the other seems RDFS I imagine not.

A Concept and a Class are not the same thing at all. An RDFS Class (data 
modelling artefact) has members/class extension that are resources, while a 
SKOS Concept (e.g. a library science artefact) does not as it’s main purpose is 
as the Web identifier for the variety of labels/definitions in multiple 
languages and flexible, not-formally-defined relations that it holds.

Note that the SKOS crew do want it used in a manner like this, but not with the 
specific approach being taken above:

Looking to the future, SKOS occupies a position between the exploitation and 
analysis of unstructured information, the informal and socially-mediated 
organization of information on a large scale, and the formal representation of 
knowledge. By making the accumulated experience and wisdom of knowledge 
organization in the library and information sciences accessible, applicable and 
transferable to the technological context of the Semantic Web, in a way that is 
complementary to existing Semantic Web technology (and in particular formal 
systems of knowledge representation such as OWL), it is hoped that SKOS will 
enable many new and valuable applications, and will also lead to new 
integrative lines of research and development in both technology and practice.

Every class and property should have its own label and more importantly its own 
local definition. Note that formal class definitions often place the class in 
the class hierarchy (i.e. a  is a  that  ) whereas a 
concept definition would not do so. Concept labels/defs are for all humans, and 
those for Classes are aimed at software

RE: [topbraid-users] label position

2021-06-29 Thread &#x27;Bohms, H.M. (Michel)&#x27; via TopBraid Suite Users

Thx Irene

Following offline discussion with David I guess we better split the 2 worlds 
(skos versus non-skos (ie rdfs/owl/shacl)):

  *   No import of skos scheme in rdfs ont
  *   Copy prefLabel, altLabel, definition also to rdfs items (satisfying your 
note in the end)
  *   Keep the isDefinedBy, doing no harm, expecting no special semantics just 
a common way to be able to navigate from rdfs to skos where there could be more 
(more languages, broaders, groupings, examples, …)
Gr michel

From: topbraid-users@googlegroups.com  On 
Behalf Of Irene Polikoff
Sent: dinsdag 29 juni 2021 15:54
To: topbraid-users@googlegroups.com
Cc: benno.koeho...@rws.nl; Sander Stolk 
Subject: Re: [topbraid-users] label position

I will answer this question from two perspectives:

1. Standards
2. TopBraid EDG

1. From the standards perspective, rdfs:isDefinedBy is a utility property that 
has no standard semantics.

It is typically used to connect a resource to its “home” vocabulary (a graph). 
This is the use case specifically mentioned by the RDFS specification and this 
is how it is typically used in practice.

Not having standard semantics means that users are generally free to use it in 
any way they want - with an understanding that there is no standard treatment 
of it by tools. A tool could decide to do something special when they see this 
property - or not. Most (all?) tools don’t.

Thus, if your intended semantics (meaning) is that the object of a triple with 
rdfs:isDefinedBy predicate carries a label and a definition for the subject of 
that triple, it is up to you to implement software that will understand this 
semantics and will act on it. You can’t expect that a standards compliant tools 
will understand this.

2. How TopBraid EDG will treat this information

As per above, by default, TopBraid EDG will simply treat a triple with 
rdfs:isDefinedBy predicate the same ass any other triple. It will not mean 
anything special to EDG - unless you tell EDG that it has a special meaning.

You can define inference rules to give rdfs:isDefinedBy a special meaning. For 
example, the property value rule below will automatically infer skos:definition 
for sml:Activity from sml-term:Activity.

Or, more generally, for any class from any concept connected to it by 
rdfs:isDefinedBy.




owl:Class
  sh:property owl:Class-definition ;
sh:property owl:Class-isDefinedBy ;
.



owl:Class-isDefinedBy
  a sh:PropertyShape ;
  sh:path rdfs:isDefinedBy ;
  sh:class skos:Concept ;


owl:Class-definition
  a sh:PropertyShape ;
  sh:path skos:definition ;
  sh:values [
  sh:path skos:definition ;
  sh:nodes [
  sh:path rdfs:isDefinedBy ;
] ;
] ;
.


Note: You can do this for any property except for the 
rdfs:label/skos:prefLabel. EDG uses special indexing and algorithms for these 
labels and their values need to be asserted directly for each resource.


On Jun 29, 2021, at 3:46 AM, 'Bohms, H.M. (Michel)' via TopBraid Suite Users 
mailto:topbraid-users@googlegroups.com>> wrote:


Dear All,

We use the pattern:



sml-term:Activity

  a skos:Concept ;

  skos:broader sml-term:Entity ;

  skos:definition "An activity is something possibly or actually happening in 
space and time"@en ;

  skos:prefLabel "Activity"@en ;

.



sml:Activity

  a rdfs:Class ;

  rdfs:isDefinedBy sml-term:Activity ;

  rdfs:subClassOf sml:Entity ;

.

But this means that the label is only indirectly available for sml:Activity 
(via “isDefinedBy.prefLabel”)

Is this an issue? (many tools like to have a direct label for their classes)
Better solutions?
(I’d like to define only once, not double; label feels naturally close to 
definition; maybe only prefLabel to rdfs-variant and leave altLabel/definition 
at skos?)

Thx for advice,
Michel



Dr. ir. H.M. (Michel) Bohms
Scientist Specialist
Structural Reliability

T +31 (0)88 866 31 07
M +31 (0)63 038 12 20
E michel.bo...@tno.nl<mailto:michel.bo...@tno.nl>

Location<http://www.tno.nl/locations/DTS>



<http://www.tno.nl/>

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RE: [topbraid-users] label position

2021-06-29 Thread &#x27;Bohms, H.M. (Michel)&#x27; via TopBraid Suite Users

 sh:PropertyShape ;
  sh:path skos:definition ;
  sh:values [
  sh:path skos:definition ;
  sh:nodes [
  sh:path rdfs:isDefinedBy ;
] ;
] ;
.

Note: You can do this for any property except for the 
rdfs:label/skos:prefLabel. EDG uses special indexing and algorithms for these 
labels and their values need to be asserted directly for each resource.

On Jun 29, 2021, at 3:46 AM, 'Bohms, H.M. (Michel)' via TopBraid Suite Users 
mailto:topbraid-users@googlegroups.com>> wrote:


Dear All,

We use the pattern:



sml-term:Activity

  a skos:Concept ;

  skos:broader sml-term:Entity ;

  skos:definition "An activity is something possibly or actually happening in 
space and time"@en ;

  skos:prefLabel "Activity"@en ;

.



sml:Activity

  a rdfs:Class ;

  rdfs:isDefinedBy sml-term:Activity ;

  rdfs:subClassOf sml:Entity ;

.

But this means that the label is only indirectly available for sml:Activity 
(via “isDefinedBy.prefLabel”)

Is this an issue? (many tools like to have a direct label for their classes)
Better solutions?
(I’d like to define only once, not double; label feels naturally close to 
definition; maybe only prefLabel to rdfs-variant and leave altLabel/definition 
at skos?)

Thx for advice,
Michel



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[topbraid-users] owl>shacl for oneof?

2021-07-19 Thread &#x27;Bohms, H.M. (Michel)&#x27; via TopBraid Suite Users

In owl I have:

nen2660:AggregationStateType
  a owl:Class ;
  owl:oneOf (
  nen2660:Solid
  nen2660:Fluid
  nen2660:Gas
  nen2660:Plasma
) ;
.

What would be the shacl variant here?:

I had:

nen2660:AggregationStateType
  a sh:NodeShape ;
  sh:property [
  sh:path nen2660:aggregationStateType ;
  sh:in (
  nen2660:Solid
  nen2660:Fluid
  nen2660:Gas
  nen2660:Plasma
) ;
] ;
.

But guess that should be simpler like:

nen2660:AggregationStateType
  a sh:NodeShape ;
  sh:in (
  nen2660:Solid
  nen2660:Fluid
  nen2660:Gas
  nen2660:Plasma
) ;
.
Is that allowed?






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Structural Reliability

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[topbraid-users] linking images

2021-07-20 Thread &#x27;Bohms, H.M. (Michel)&#x27; via TopBraid Suite Users

Is there a more specific annotation than rdfs:seeAlso to relate an image to a 
class?
(ie in skos, dcterms, etc.)

Thx for advice, Michel

Ps
Foaf:Image seems only ok for instances (since domain being owl:Thing) and we do 
not want to introduce punning...




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RE: [topbraid-users] linking images

2021-07-20 Thread &#x27;Bohms, H.M. (Michel)&#x27; via TopBraid Suite Users

Hi Rob

Is there some text missing after:

-i.e. a shape that uses the  …..

It would help me understand the actual broader issue you triggered (broader 
than just my need to have a standard link towards a jpg/png, less generic than 
seeAlso).

I am not understanding now how my simple technical issue ‘brings us to’ the 
broader issue wrt externel owl usage..

Thx michel



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Van: topbraid-users@googlegroups.com  Namens 
Rob Atkinson
Verzonden: woensdag 21 juli 2021 02:00
Aan: topbraid-users@googlegroups.com
Onderwerp: Re: [topbraid-users] linking images

I have had the same requirement - I added a new property "explanatory image" - 
and also "canonicalExample" for RDF instances matching the model and 
"implementationExample" for implementations of the model in other forms (such 
as XML)

We are using asciidocs and pyLode to generate documentation automatically from 
models via the SPARQL endpoint.  Still looking for automated (by default) 
diagramming options. -i.e. a shape that uses the

Which brings us to a idea thats been floating around - how TQ users might share 
shapes that enable external OWL to be used within the EDG environment - since 
its obviously not scalable or appropriate to wait till TQ includes these in the 
core.  A "EDG model extension" pattern that can be SHACL validated to plug in a 
new ontology into an EDG environment seems like a good thing - anyone got such 
a thing already that can be shared?




On Tue, 20 Jul 2021 at 22:40, David Price 
mailto:dpr...@topquadrant.com>> wrote:



On 20 Jul 2021, at 13:26, 'Bohms, H.M. (Michel)' via TopBraid Suite Users 
mailto:topbraid-users@googlegroups.com>> wrote:

Thx David, very clear!
Indeed used as schematics maybe showing how to interprete attributes etc.

I guess, even when embedded in HTML, there is no special version of 
rdfs:seeAlso towards HTML resources?

seeAlso does not refer to the HTML I pasted. That is from the W3C site 
supporting Prov-O.

There is no “special version” of any rdfs or owl annotation property.

Cheers,
David





Dr. ir. H.M. (Michel) Bohms
Scientist Specialist
Structural Reliability

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Van: topbraid-users@googlegroups.com<mailto:topbraid-users@googlegroups.com> 
mailto:topbraid-users@googlegroups.com>> 
Namens David Price
Verzonden: dinsdag 20 juli 2021 13:04
Aan: topbraid-users@googlegroups.com<mailto:topbraid-users@googlegroups.com>
Onderwerp: Re: [topbraid-users] linking images

Nothing in the core standards for this as far as I can see.

FWIW I don’t think I know of/never seen a customer project use any 
standard/public ontologies that publishes images for OWL classes they create, 
except of course in the HTML pages about an ontology.

For example, Prov-O has a lot of nice pictures explaining the ontology but none 
are linked from the OWL itself - 
https://www.w3.org/TR/prov-o/#expanded-terms-figure is reached in this HTML 
source:

 







Figure 
1.

The three Starting Point classes and the properties that relate 
them.

The diagrams in this document depict Entities as yellow ovals,

Activities as blue rectangles, and Agents as orange pentagons.

The responsibility properties are shown in pink.



  

Anyway, just for fun I added rdfs:seeAlso to EDG owl:Class-defined properties 
and it works fine:




Cheers,
David

On 20 Jul 2021, at 10:35, 'Bohms, H.M. (Michel)' via TopBraid Suite Users 
mailto:topbraid-users@googlegroups.com>> wrote:

Is there a more specific annotation than rdfs:seeAlso to relate an image to a 
class?
(ie in skos,

[topbraid-users] union in sh

2021-07-21 Thread &#x27;Bohms, H.M. (Michel)&#x27; via TopBraid Suite Users

I now have:

nen2660:QuantityValue
  a owl:Class ;
  rdfs:subClassOf [
  a owl:Restriction ;
  owl:allValuesFrom xsd:double ;
  owl:onProperty rdf:value ;
] ;
.


People want tof lex this into a double or a decimal
In owl its clear
But in this shacl I get:
nen2660:QuantityValue
  rdf:type rdfs:Class ;
  rdf:type sh:NodeShape ;
  rdfs:seeAlso nen2660-term:QuantityValue ;
  rdfs:subClassOf nen2660:Objectification ;
  skos:definition "The objectification of a value of a quantity (involving a 
quantitykind and a unit) having a complex value like a simple value sec 
combined with other metadata or just a combination of simple values"@en ;
  skos:prefLabel "Quantity value"@en ;
  sh:property [
  sh:path rdf:value ;
  sh:datatype [
  rdf:type owl:Class ;
  owl:unionOf (
  xsd:double
  xsd:decimal
) ;
] ;
] ;
.

Ie a piece of owl is introduced...after:
[cid:image001.png@01D77E1C.D5A4F260]
Isn't there a more shacl-native way to do this?

Thx michel




Dr. ir. H.M. (Michel) Bohms
Scientist Specialist
Structural Reliability

T +31 (0)88 866 31 07
M +31 (0)63 038 12 20
E michel.bo...@tno.nl

Location



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[topbraid-users] sh:nodeKind

2021-07-21 Thread &#x27;Bohms, H.M. (Michel)&#x27; via TopBraid Suite Users

What was the best practice for nodeKind in case class or datatype are already 
specified
(hence type could be inferred to be blankorLit/blankoriri)

Assert or not?

Thx michel



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RE: [topbraid-users] union in sh

2021-07-21 Thread &#x27;Bohms, H.M. (Michel)&#x27; via TopBraid Suite Users

That is good news.
But tbc does it when I add ‘x or y’ in the form……

So how would:

nen2660:QuantityValue
  rdf:type rdfs:Class ;
  rdf:type sh:NodeShape ;
  rdfs:seeAlso nen2660-term:QuantityValue ;
  rdfs:subClassOf nen2660:Objectification ;
  skos:definition "The objectification of a value of a quantity (involving a 
quantitykind and a unit) having a complex value like a simple value sec 
combined with other metadata or just a combination of simple values"@en ;
  skos:prefLabel "Quantity value"@en ;
  sh:property [
  sh:path rdf:value ;
  sh:datatype [
  rdf:type owl:Class ;
  owl:unionOf (
  xsd:double
  xsd:decimal
) ;
] ;
] ;
.

Look like in pure shacl?



Dr. ir. H.M. (Michel) Bohms
Scientist Specialist
Structural Reliability

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Van: topbraid-users@googlegroups.com  Namens 
David Price
Verzonden: woensdag 21 juli 2021 12:24
Aan: topbraid-users@googlegroups.com
CC: Kronemeijer, Redmer 
Onderwerp: Re: [topbraid-users] union in sh

OWL logic cannot be used in SHACL.

We provide these resources to answer to this kind of question:

TopQuadrant.com<http://TopQuadrant.com> SHACL learning page at 
https://www.topquadrant.com/technology/shacl/

SHACL and OWL Compared at https://spinrdf.org/shacl-and-owl.html

where you find this:

Logical Constraints

owl:complementOf

sh:not

owl:intersectionOf

sh:and

owl:unionOf

sh:or

owl:qualifiedMin/MaxCardinality 1

sh:xone

owl:disjointUnionOf

sh:node/sh:or/sh:not


Cheers,
David


On 21 Jul 2021, at 09:40, 'Bohms, H.M. (Michel)' via TopBraid Suite Users 
mailto:topbraid-users@googlegroups.com>> wrote:

I now have:

nen2660:QuantityValue
  a owl:Class ;
  rdfs:subClassOf [
  a owl:Restriction ;
  owl:allValuesFrom xsd:double ;
  owl:onProperty rdf:value ;
] ;
.


People want tof lex this into a double or a decimal
In owl its clear
But in this shacl I get:
nen2660:QuantityValue
  rdf:type rdfs:Class ;
  rdf:type sh:NodeShape ;
  rdfs:seeAlso nen2660-term:QuantityValue ;
  rdfs:subClassOf nen2660:Objectification ;
  skos:definition "The objectification of a value of a quantity (involving a 
quantitykind and a unit) having a complex value like a simple value sec 
combined with other metadata or just a combination of simple values"@en ;
  skos:prefLabel "Quantity value"@en ;
  sh:property [
  sh:path rdf:value ;
  sh:datatype [
  rdf:type owl:Class ;
  owl:unionOf (
  xsd:double
  xsd:decimal
) ;
] ;
] ;
.

Ie a piece of owl is introduced…after:

Isn’t there a more shacl-native way to do this?

Thx michel




Dr. ir. H.M. (Michel) Bohms
Scientist Specialist
Structural Reliability

T +31 (0)88 866 31 07
M +31 (0)63 038 12 20
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[topbraid-users] shacl for range only (in case of implicit targets)

2021-07-27 Thread &#x27;Bohms, H.M. (Michel)&#x27; via TopBraid Suite Users

I have in rdfs:

x:hasUnit a rdf:Property ;
  rdfs:range qudt:Unit .

Can my corresponding shacl with implicit targets simply be?:

x:hasUnit a sh:NodeShape ;
  sh:class qudt:Unit .

or do I need some sh:targetObjectsOf?

nen2660:hasUnit
  a sh:NodeShape ;
  sh:class qudt:Unit ;
  sh:targetObjectsOf nen2660:hasUnit ;
.




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[topbraid-users] RE: shacl for range only (in case of implicit targets)

2021-07-27 Thread &#x27;Bohms, H.M. (Michel)&#x27; via TopBraid Suite Users

Or.

Can I be implicit but needing a sh:property

:hasUnit
  a sh:NodeShape ;
  sh:property [
sh:path :hasUnit ;
sh:class qudt:Unit ;
  ]
.

Or is this nonsense ( something being a rdf:Property and a sh:NodeShape at the 
same time)



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Van: Bohms, H.M. (Michel)
Verzonden: dinsdag 27 juli 2021 13:17
Aan: topbraid-users@googlegroups.com
Onderwerp: shacl for range only (in case of implicit targets)

I have in rdfs:

x:hasUnit a rdf:Property ;
  rdfs:range qudt:Unit .

Can my corresponding shacl with implicit targets simply be?:

x:hasUnit a sh:NodeShape ;
  sh:class qudt:Unit .

or do I need some sh:targetObjectsOf?

nen2660:hasUnit
  a sh:NodeShape ;
  sh:class qudt:Unit ;
  sh:targetObjectsOf nen2660:hasUnit ;
.




Dr. ir. H.M. (Michel) Bohms
Scientist Specialist
Structural Reliability

T +31 (0)88 866 31 07
M +31 (0)63 038 12 20
E michel.bo...@tno.nl

Location



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RE: [topbraid-users] shacl for range only (in case of implicit targets)

2021-07-28 Thread &#x27;Bohms, H.M. (Michel)&#x27; via TopBraid Suite Users

Thx Holger

So there is no implicit variant here without  a target?

Like:

ex:hasUnit
a sh:NodeShape ;
sh:class qudt:Unit .

(where ex:hasUnit is also an rdfs:Property somewhere else/imported).



To establish a global range-like property constraint, you could do

ex:hasUnitShape
a sh:NodeShape ;
sh:targetObjectsOf ex:hasUnit ;
sh:class qudt:Unit .

Holger


On 2021-07-27 9:17 pm, 'Bohms, H.M. (Michel)' via TopBraid Suite Users wrote:
I have in rdfs:

x:hasUnit a rdf:Property ;
  rdfs:range qudt:Unit .

Can my corresponding shacl with implicit targets simply be?:

x:hasUnit a sh:NodeShape ;
  sh:class qudt:Unit .

or do I need some sh:targetObjectsOf?

nen2660:hasUnit
  a sh:NodeShape ;
  sh:class qudt:Unit ;
  sh:targetObjectsOf nen2660:hasUnit ;
.




Dr. ir. H.M. (Michel) Bohms
Scientist Specialist
Structural Reliability

T +31 (0)88 866 31 07
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[topbraid-users] small shacl example question

2021-07-28 Thread &#x27;Bohms, H.M. (Michel)&#x27; via TopBraid Suite Users

Wrt to following fragment in https://www.w3.org/TR/shacl/ (or later: 
https://w3c.github.io/data-shapes/shacl/)

  *   At most 5 values of ex:property?
  *   Shouldn't that be ex:digit?
The following example illustrates the use of sh:qualifiedValueShapesDisjoint to 
express that a hand must have at most 5 values of ex:property (expressed using 
sh:maxCount), and exactly one of them must be an instance of ex:Thumb while 
exactly 4 of them must be an instance of ex:Finger but thumbs and fingers must 
be disjoint. In other words, on a hand, none of the fingers can also be counted 
as the thumb.
ex:HandShape
a sh:NodeShape ;
sh:targetClass ex:Hand ;
sh:property [
 sh:path ex:digit ;
 sh:maxCount 5 ;
] ;
sh:property [
 sh:path ex:digit ;
 sh:qualifiedValueShape [ sh:class ex:Thumb ] ;
 sh:qualifiedValueShapesDisjoint true ;
 sh:qualifiedMinCount 1 ;
 sh:qualifiedMaxCount 1 ;
] ;
sh:property [
 sh:path ex:digit ;
 sh:qualifiedValueShape [ sh:class ex:Finger ] ;
 sh:qualifiedValueShapesDisjoint true ;
 sh:qualifiedMinCount 4 ;
 sh:qualifiedMaxCount 4 ;
] .




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Structural Reliability

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[topbraid-users] right owl2shacl-mapping?

2021-08-31 Thread &#x27;Bohms, H.M. (Michel)&#x27; via TopBraid Suite Users

(we were looking for an approach not needing rdfs-entailment)

sml:AllDisjointClasses_1
  a owl:AllDisjointClasses ;
  owl:members (
  sml:PhysicalObject
  sml:InformationObject
  sml:Activity
  sml:Event
  sml:State
) ;
.

In shacl (?):

sml:DisjointClassesShape_1 a sh:NodeShape ;
  sh:targetSubjectsOf rdf:type ;
  sh:property [
sh:path ( rdf:type [ sh:zeroOrMorePath rdfs:subClassOf ] ) ;
sh:qualifiedValueShape [
  sh:in (
sml:PhysicalObject
sml:InformationObject
sml:State
sml:Event
sml:Activity
  ) ;
] ;
sh:qualifiedMaxCount 1 ;
  ] ;
.

Any issues with this mapping?

Thx Michel




Dr. ir. H.M. (Michel) Bohms
Scientist Specialist
Structural Reliability

T +31 (0)88 866 31 07
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RE: [topbraid-users] right owl2shacl-mapping?

2021-08-31 Thread &#x27;Bohms, H.M. (Michel)&#x27; via TopBraid Suite Users

Hi David

Your solution (as generated) needs quite some code in case of more than two 
items and also in a distributed way.
We hoped to cover it with more generic template code…

Wrt shacl AF: if we can do it in shacl core (being a recommendation) that would 
be preferred. Furthermore I would not quickly see how to define a triple rule 
that does the same as the shacl core nodeshape proposal.

(I do see your visibility issue though…)

Gr michel



Dr. ir. H.M. (Michel) Bohms
Scientist Specialist
Structural Reliability

T +31 (0)88 866 31 07
M +31 (0)63 038 12 20
E michel.bo...@tno.nl<mailto:michel.bo...@tno.nl>

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Van: topbraid-users@googlegroups.com  Namens 
David Price
Verzonden: dinsdag 31 augustus 2021 15:46
Aan: topbraid-users@googlegroups.com
Onderwerp: Re: [topbraid-users] right owl2shacl-mapping?

I don’t like creating a separate instance to control disjointedness as it’s not 
immediately visible in the relevant class form. The NodeShape being proposed 
has the same issue.

I usually use a pattern like this:

unnamed:Thing_1
  rdf:type owl:Class ;
  rdfs:subClassOf owl:Thing ;
  owl:disjointWith unnamed:Thing_2 ;
  owl:disjointWith unnamed:Thing_3 ;

and then EDG owl2shacl does this: For each owl:disjointWith from class A to B, 
create one constraint at A with the pattern sh:not [ sh:class B ].

You could generate sh:not from the approach you mention too, of course. I did 
not test the mentioned approach but it does appear that it or something similar 
would work.

Also, if Advanced SHACL is supported in your tools a TripleRule could likely 
handle this need.

https://w3c.github.io/shacl/shacl-af/#TripleRule

Cheers,
David


On 31 Aug 2021, at 13:28, 'Bohms, H.M. (Michel)' via TopBraid Suite Users 
mailto:topbraid-users@googlegroups.com>> wrote:

(we were looking for an approach not needing rdfs-entailment)

sml:AllDisjointClasses_1
  a owl:AllDisjointClasses ;
  owl:members (
  sml:PhysicalObject
  sml:InformationObject
  sml:Activity
  sml:Event
  sml:State
) ;
.

In shacl (?):

sml:DisjointClassesShape_1 a sh:NodeShape ;
  sh:targetSubjectsOf rdf:type ;
  sh:property [
sh:path ( rdf:type [ sh:zeroOrMorePath rdfs:subClassOf ] ) ;
sh:qualifiedValueShape [
  sh:in (
sml:PhysicalObject
sml:InformationObject
sml:State
sml:Event
sml:Activity
  ) ;
] ;
sh:qualifiedMaxCount 1 ;
  ] ;
.

Any issues with this mapping?

Thx Michel




Dr. ir. H.M. (Michel) Bohms
Scientist Specialist
Structural Reliability

T +31 (0)88 866 31 07
M +31 (0)63 038 12 20
E michel.bo...@tno.nl<mailto:michel.bo...@tno.nl>

Location<http://www.tno.nl/locations/DTS>



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RE: [topbraid-users] right owl2shacl-mapping?

2021-08-31 Thread &#x27;Bohms, H.M. (Michel)&#x27; via TopBraid Suite Users

Hi Holger

The pattern I showed is a proposal by someone as a replacement for our current:

sml:AllDisjointClassesShape_1
  a sh:NodeShape ;
  sh:targetSubjectsOf rdf:type ;
  sh:property [
sh:path rdf:type ;
sh:qualifiedValueShape [
  sh:zeroOrMorePath rdfs:subClassOf ;
  sh:in (
sml:PhysicalObject
sml:InformationObject
sml:State
sml:Event
sml:Activity
  ) ;
] ;
sh:qualifiedMaxCount 1 ;
  ] ;
.

Would the current way be less cumbersome to check?

How applied? In our current CEN SML ontology we have one such dimension for the 
main archetypes (as above) and for some of them some orthogonal dimensions with 
less items (#2): planned/realized, space/object, functional/technical).

That is also the reason multiple typing is always relevant and cannot be closed 
(ie ‘maxcard rdf:type being 1’ is not possible).

dash:allDisjoint would be an interesting  but ‘limited standard’ option I 
guess…isn’t there room in the evolving (in future more standard) shacl-af for 
such a construct?

Michel



Dr. ir. H.M. (Michel) Bohms
Scientist Specialist
Structural Reliability

T +31 (0)88 866 31 07
M +31 (0)63 038 12 20
E michel.bo...@tno.nl<mailto:michel.bo...@tno.nl>

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Van: topbraid-users@googlegroups.com  Namens 
Holger Knublauch
Verzonden: woensdag 1 september 2021 01:58
Aan: topbraid-users@googlegroups.com
Onderwerp: Re: [topbraid-users] right owl2shacl-mapping?


This (interesting) design may work technically, but it can be very slow because 
it will traverse all rdf:type triples everywhere and use a rather complex 
algorithm with nested (qualified) shapes. A better solution would indeed start 
with exactly the instances of one of those classes. The solution that David 
mentioned certainly works OK if you have few disjoint classes each, but for 
long lists even the OWL 2 standard introduced a more compact syntax, using 
owl:AllDisjointClasses.

I guess the syntactically ideal replacement would be to declare a reusable 
constraint component using SHACL-SPARQL (which is part of the SHACL standard 
1.0). You could even leave the existing owl:DisjointClasses in place, but I 
don't like that they are using rdf:Lists which would need to be traversed 
repeatedly and that is very slow too. owl:members here should simply point at 
the classes IMHO.

But something like that should be fine:

sml:AllDisjointClasses_1
a sh:NodeShape ;
sh:targetClass sml:PhysicalObject, sml:InformationObject, sml:Activity, 
sml:Event, sml:State ;
dash:allDisjoint true .

where dash:allDisjoint would be a constraint component that would walk through 
the targetClasses of $currentShape in $shapesGraph.

How many such cases (of large disjointness clusters) do you actually have? Is 
this even a sensible concept... I mean how would this exclude anyone else from 
adding more classes that you don't know about yet. If you want to close off 
your instances, just give them a sh:maxCount 1 on rdf:type.

Holger


On 2021-08-31 10:28 pm, 'Bohms, H.M. (Michel)' via TopBraid Suite Users wrote:
(we were looking for an approach not needing rdfs-entailment)

sml:AllDisjointClasses_1
  a owl:AllDisjointClasses ;
  owl:members (
  sml:PhysicalObject
  sml:InformationObject
  sml:Activity
  sml:Event
  sml:State
) ;
.

In shacl (?):

sml:DisjointClassesShape_1 a sh:NodeShape ;
  sh:targetSubjectsOf rdf:type ;
  sh:property [
sh:path ( rdf:type [ sh:zeroOrMorePath rdfs:subClassOf ] ) ;
sh:qualifiedValueShape [
  sh:in (
sml:PhysicalObject
sml:InformationObject
sml:State
sml:Event
sml:Activity
  ) ;
] ;
sh:qualifiedMaxCount 1 ;
  ] ;
.

Any issues with this mapping?

Thx Michel




Dr. ir. H.M. (Michel) Bohms
Scientist Specialist
Structural Reliability

T +31 (0)88 866 31 07
M +31 (0)63 038 12 20
E michel.bo...@tno.nl<mailto:michel.bo...@tno.nl>

Location<http://www.tno.nl/locations/DTS>



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RE: [topbraid-users] right owl2shacl-mapping?

2021-09-02 Thread &#x27;Bohms, H.M. (Michel)&#x27; via TopBraid Suite Users

Thx clear!

So…how could we define the dash:allDisjoint …. ?



Dr. ir. H.M. (Michel) Bohms
Scientist Specialist
Structural Reliability

T +31 (0)88 866 31 07
M +31 (0)63 038 12 20
E michel.bo...@tno.nl<mailto:michel.bo...@tno.nl>

Location<http://www.tno.nl/locations/DTS>



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Van: topbraid-users@googlegroups.com  Namens 
Holger Knublauch
Verzonden: donderdag 2 september 2021 05:09
Aan: topbraid-users@googlegroups.com
CC: Miltos Gatzios ; Lucas Verhelst 

Onderwerp: Re: [topbraid-users] right owl2shacl-mapping?



On 2021-09-01 4:51 pm, 'Bohms, H.M. (Michel)' via TopBraid Suite Users wrote:
Hi Holger

The pattern I showed is a proposal by someone as a replacement for our current:

sml:AllDisjointClassesShape_1
  a sh:NodeShape ;
  sh:targetSubjectsOf rdf:type ;
  sh:property [
sh:path rdf:type ;
sh:qualifiedValueShape [
  sh:zeroOrMorePath rdfs:subClassOf ;
  sh:in (
sml:PhysicalObject
sml:InformationObject
sml:State
sml:Event
sml:Activity
  ) ;
] ;
sh:qualifiedMaxCount 1 ;
  ] ;
.

Would the current way be less cumbersome to check?
That looks equally slow as it applies to all rdf:type triples. Better to target 
exactly the instances of the classes in question, and the sh:targetClass 
approach that I outlined would do that.


How applied? In our current CEN SML ontology we have one such dimension for the 
main archetypes (as above) and for some of them some orthogonal dimensions with 
less items (#2): planned/realized, space/object, functional/technical).

That is also the reason multiple typing is always relevant and cannot be closed 
(ie ‘maxcard rdf:type being 1’ is not possible).

dash:allDisjoint would be an interesting  but ‘limited standard’ option I 
guess…isn’t there room in the evolving (in future more standard) shacl-af for 
such a construct?

dash:allDisjoint can already be expressed in SHACL 1.0 but not in Core but 
SHACL-SPARQL.

There is no point in waiting for a SHACL 1.1 or SHACL-AF becoming official as 
W3C would require multi-year processes for that and nobody has even started 
those processes.

Holger



Michel



Dr. ir. H.M. (Michel) Bohms
Scientist Specialist
Structural Reliability

T +31 (0)88 866 31 07
M +31 (0)63 038 12 20
E michel.bo...@tno.nl<mailto:michel.bo...@tno.nl>

Location<http://www.tno.nl/locations/DTS>



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Van: topbraid-users@googlegroups.com<mailto:topbraid-users@googlegroups.com> 
<mailto:topbraid-users@googlegroups.com> 
Namens Holger Knublauch
Verzonden: woensdag 1 september 2021 01:58
Aan: topbraid-users@googlegroups.com<mailto:topbraid-users@googlegroups.com>
Onderwerp: Re: [topbraid-users] right owl2shacl-mapping?


This (interesting) design may work technically, but it can be very slow because 
it will traverse all rdf:type triples everywhere and use a rather complex 
algorithm with nested (qualified) shapes. A better solution would indeed start 
with exactly the instances of one of those classes. The solution that David 
mentioned certainly works OK if you have few disjoint classes each, but for 
long lists even the OWL 2 standard introduced a more compact syntax, using 
owl:AllDisjointClasses.

I guess the syntactically ideal replacement would be to declare a reusable 
constraint component using SHACL-SPARQL (which is part of the SHACL standard 
1.0). You could even leave the existing owl:DisjointClasses in place, but I 
don't like that they are using rdf:Lists which would need to be traversed 
repeatedly and that is very slow too. owl:members here should simply point at 
the classes IMHO.

But something like that should be fine:

sml:AllDisjointClasses_1
a sh:NodeShape ;
sh:targetClass sml:PhysicalObject, sml:InformationObject, sml:Activity, 
sml:Event, sml:State ;
dash:allDisjoint true .

where dash:allDisjoint would be a constraint component that would walk through 
the targetClasses of $currentShape in $shapesGraph.

How many such cases (of large disjointness clusters) do you actually ha

[topbraid-users] semantic sheet datatypes

2021-09-16 Thread &#x27;Bohms, H.M. (Michel)&#x27; via TopBraid Suite Users

When using the semantic spreadsheet option I see that numbers are mapped to xsd 
doubles.

But...in the spreadsheet people are using comma's... so I get:
[cid:image001.png@01D7AADE.5D44A380]

But a double should have a point in the end.

So wouldn't the heuristic not be a string when comma stuff is encountered?

Thx Michel




Dr. ir. H.M. (Michel) Bohms
Scientist Specialist
Structural Reliability

T +31 (0)88 866 31 07
M +31 (0)63 038 12 20
E michel.bo...@tno.nl

Location



[cid:image002.gif@01D7AADE.5D44A380]

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[topbraid-users] special characters in atr. names

2021-09-16 Thread &#x27;Bohms, H.M. (Michel)&#x27; via TopBraid Suite Users

It seems that dashes and underscores from attribute names disappear in de 
semantic sheet conversion.
Please advice, thx Michel

[cid:image001.png@01D7AAF8.6B815B90]

Results in:

[cid:image002.png@01D7AAF8.6B815B90]



Dr. ir. H.M. (Michel) Bohms
Scientist Specialist
Structural Reliability

T +31 (0)88 866 31 07
M +31 (0)63 038 12 20
E michel.bo...@tno.nl

Location



[cid:image003.gif@01D7AAF8.6B815B90]

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[topbraid-users] RE: semantic sheet datatypes

2021-09-16 Thread &#x27;Bohms, H.M. (Michel)&#x27; via TopBraid Suite Users

Now i changed my system setting (as also used by excel) to . as separator.

But now my . values in the sheet become strings!

H?

[cid:image003.png@01D7AAF9.90120E40]



Dr. ir. H.M. (Michel) Bohms
Scientist Specialist
Structural Reliability

T +31 (0)88 866 31 07
M +31 (0)63 038 12 20
E michel.bo...@tno.nl<mailto:michel.bo...@tno.nl>

Location<http://www.tno.nl/locations/DTS>



[cid:image004.gif@01D7AAF9.90120E40]<http://www.tno.nl/>

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Van: 'Bohms, H.M. (Michel)' via TopBraid Suite Users 

Verzonden: donderdag 16 september 2021 09:37
Aan: topbraid-users@googlegroups.com
Onderwerp: [topbraid-users] semantic sheet datatypes

When using the semantic spreadsheet option I see that numbers are mapped to xsd 
doubles.

But…in the spreadsheet people are using comma’s… so I get:
[cid:image005.png@01D7AAF9.90120E40]

But a double should have a point in the end.

So wouldn’t the heuristic not be a string when comma stuff is encountered?

Thx Michel




Dr. ir. H.M. (Michel) Bohms
Scientist Specialist
Structural Reliability

T +31 (0)88 866 31 07
M +31 (0)63 038 12 20
E michel.bo...@tno.nl<mailto:michel.bo...@tno.nl>

Location<http://www.tno.nl/locations/DTS>



[cid:image004.gif@01D7AAF9.90120E40]<http://www.tno.nl/>

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[topbraid-users] third issue sheet import

2021-09-16 Thread &#x27;Bohms, H.M. (Michel)&#x27; via TopBraid Suite Users

In excel i have 3 sheets
1 en 3 are empty, 2 is filled:

[cid:image001.png@01D7AAF9.EAE2F500]

Result:
Data from sheet 2 is classified as sheet no 1 ..

[cid:image002.png@01D7AAF9.EAE2F500]

Is this expected?

Thx Michel





Dr. ir. H.M. (Michel) Bohms
Scientist Specialist
Structural Reliability

T +31 (0)88 866 31 07
M +31 (0)63 038 12 20
E michel.bo...@tno.nl

Location



[cid:image003.gif@01D7AAF9.EAE2F500]

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[topbraid-users] RE: semantic sheet datatypes

2021-09-16 Thread &#x27;Bohms, H.M. (Michel)&#x27; via TopBraid Suite Users


By explicitly formatting cells as Number this seems solved…. (they become 
xsd:double)


Only now my dotsin the values become comma’s in TBC! 😊

[cid:image001.png@01D7AB07.27DB8E60]



Dr. ir. H.M. (Michel) Bohms
Scientist Specialist
Structural Reliability

T +31 (0)88 866 31 07
M +31 (0)63 038 12 20
E michel.bo...@tno.nl<mailto:michel.bo...@tno.nl>

Location<http://www.tno.nl/locations/DTS>



[cid:image002.gif@01D7AB07.27DB8E60]<http://www.tno.nl/>

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Van: 'Bohms, H.M. (Michel)' via TopBraid Suite Users 

Verzonden: donderdag 16 september 2021 12:51
Aan: topbraid-users@googlegroups.com
Onderwerp: [topbraid-users] RE: semantic sheet datatypes

Now i changed my system setting (as also used by excel) to . as separator.

But now my . values in the sheet become strings!

H?

[cid:image004.png@01D7AB07.27DB8E60]



Dr. ir. H.M. (Michel) Bohms
Scientist Specialist
Structural Reliability

T +31 (0)88 866 31 07
M +31 (0)63 038 12 20
E michel.bo...@tno.nl<mailto:michel.bo...@tno.nl>

Location<http://www.tno.nl/locations/DTS>



[cid:image002.gif@01D7AB07.27DB8E60]<http://www.tno.nl/>

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Van: 'Bohms, H.M. (Michel)' via TopBraid Suite Users 
mailto:topbraid-users@googlegroups.com>>
Verzonden: donderdag 16 september 2021 09:37
Aan: topbraid-users@googlegroups.com<mailto:topbraid-users@googlegroups.com>
Onderwerp: [topbraid-users] semantic sheet datatypes

When using the semantic spreadsheet option I see that numbers are mapped to xsd 
doubles.

But…in the spreadsheet people are using comma’s… so I get:
[cid:image006.png@01D7AB07.27DB8E60]

But a double should have a point in the end.

So wouldn’t the heuristic not be a string when comma stuff is encountered?

Thx Michel




Dr. ir. H.M. (Michel) Bohms
Scientist Specialist
Structural Reliability

T +31 (0)88 866 31 07
M +31 (0)63 038 12 20
E michel.bo...@tno.nl<mailto:michel.bo...@tno.nl>

Location<http://www.tno.nl/locations/DTS>



[cid:image002.gif@01D7AB07.27DB8E60]<http://www.tno.nl/>

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[topbraid-users] RE: third issue sheet import

2021-09-16 Thread &#x27;Bohms, H.M. (Michel)&#x27; via TopBraid Suite Users

More info:
It only goes wrong when the first sheet is empty
If there is data classification is fine.



Dr. ir. H.M. (Michel) Bohms
Scientist Specialist
Structural Reliability

T +31 (0)88 866 31 07
M +31 (0)63 038 12 20
E michel.bo...@tno.nl<mailto:michel.bo...@tno.nl>

Location<http://www.tno.nl/locations/DTS>



[cid:image003.gif@01D7AB17.329CBFD0]<http://www.tno.nl/>

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Van: 'Bohms, H.M. (Michel)' via TopBraid Suite Users 

Verzonden: Thursday, September 16, 2021 12:54 PM
Aan: topbraid-users@googlegroups.com
Onderwerp: [topbraid-users] third issue sheet import

In excel i have 3 sheets
1 en 3 are empty, 2 is filled:

[cid:image004.png@01D7AB17.329CBFD0]

Result:
Data from sheet 2 is classified as sheet no 1 ..

[cid:image005.png@01D7AB17.329CBFD0]

Is this expected?

Thx Michel





Dr. ir. H.M. (Michel) Bohms
Scientist Specialist
Structural Reliability

T +31 (0)88 866 31 07
M +31 (0)63 038 12 20
E michel.bo...@tno.nl<mailto:michel.bo...@tno.nl>

Location<http://www.tno.nl/locations/DTS>



[cid:image003.gif@01D7AB17.329CBFD0]<http://www.tno.nl/>

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RE: [topbraid-users] RE: third issue sheet import

2021-09-16 Thread &#x27;Bohms, H.M. (Michel)&#x27; via TopBraid Suite Users

Ok, I put some fake data in this yet to fill sheet ….



Dr. ir. H.M. (Michel) Bohms
Scientist Specialist
Structural Reliability

T +31 (0)88 866 31 07
M +31 (0)63 038 12 20
E michel.bo...@tno.nl<mailto:michel.bo...@tno.nl>

Location<http://www.tno.nl/locations/DTS>



[cid:image001.gif@01D7AB20.0FA31C50]<http://www.tno.nl/>

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Van: topbraid-users@googlegroups.com  Namens 
Irene Polikoff
Verzonden: Thursday, September 16, 2021 5:26 PM
Aan: topbraid-users@googlegroups.com
Onderwerp: Re: [topbraid-users] RE: third issue sheet import

Yes, index starts with 0


On Sep 16, 2021, at 10:23 AM, 'Bohms, H.M. (Michel)' via TopBraid Suite Users 
mailto:topbraid-users@googlegroups.com>> wrote:

More info:
It only goes wrong when the first sheet is empty
If there is data classification is fine.



Dr. ir. H.M. (Michel) Bohms
Scientist Specialist
Structural Reliability

T +31 (0)88 866 31 07
M +31 (0)63 038 12 20
E michel.bo...@tno.nl<mailto:michel.bo...@tno.nl>

Location<http://www.tno.nl/locations/DTS>



<http://www.tno.nl/>
<http://www.tno.nl/>


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Van: 'Bohms, H.M. (Michel)' via TopBraid Suite Users 
mailto:topbraid-users@googlegroups.com>>
Verzonden: Thursday, September 16, 2021 12:54 PM
Aan: topbraid-users@googlegroups.com<mailto:topbraid-users@googlegroups.com>
Onderwerp: [topbraid-users] third issue sheet import

In excel i have 3 sheets
1 en 3 are empty, 2 is filled:



Result:
Data from sheet 2 is classified as sheet no 1 ..



Is this expected?

Thx Michel





Dr. ir. H.M. (Michel) Bohms
Scientist Specialist
Structural Reliability

T +31 (0)88 866 31 07
M +31 (0)63 038 12 20
E michel.bo...@tno.nl<mailto:michel.bo...@tno.nl>

Location<http://www.tno.nl/locations/DTS>



<http://www.tno.nl/>
<http://www.tno.nl/>


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[topbraid-users] mu

2021-09-16 Thread &#x27;Bohms, H.M. (Michel)&#x27; via TopBraid Suite Users

I noticed that:

zanddriehoek_180_µm_63_µm

did not result in a prefixed name

because of 'µ'...was that to be expected?

(can change to micro )



Dr. ir. H.M. (Michel) Bohms
Scientist Specialist
Structural Reliability

T +31 (0)88 866 31 07
M +31 (0)63 038 12 20
E michel.bo...@tno.nl

Location



[cid:image001.gif@01D7AB20.4C683580]

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RE: [topbraid-users] RE: third issue sheet import

2021-09-16 Thread &#x27;Bohms, H.M. (Michel)&#x27; via TopBraid Suite Users

Hi Irene

Well the semantic import is working quite well for me.
(we generate standard/simple spreadsheets from existing PDFs)

The only two import-issues left now are:


·   Dots in numbers become commas

·   Dashes and underscores in attribute names disappear



Hope I can resolve/work around then then…….



Thx Michel




Dr. ir. H.M. (Michel) Bohms
Scientist Specialist
Structural Reliability

T +31 (0)88 866 31 07
M +31 (0)63 038 12 20
E michel.bo...@tno.nl<mailto:michel.bo...@tno.nl>

Location<http://www.tno.nl/locations/DTS>



[cid:image001.gif@01D7AB23.0DAF3430]<http://www.tno.nl/>

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Van: topbraid-users@googlegroups.com  Namens 
Irene Polikoff
Verzonden: Thursday, September 16, 2021 5:40 PM
Aan: topbraid-users@googlegroups.com
Onderwerp: Re: [topbraid-users] RE: third issue sheet import

Just noticed your message that the 1st sheet is empty.

This may be a reason as well. In some importers index starts with zero. In 
some, it starts with 1.

Overtime, several different spreadsheet importers were built. Based on our and 
customer’s experience with them, we are no longer actively maintaining 
spreadsheet import options unique to TBC. We discovered that no matter how much 
one tries, there will always be cases when a canned spreadsheet import does not 
do exactly what a user needs - because of how a particular spreadsheet is 
structured and the data in it  and/or because a canned import is not fully 
aligned with the user’s unique needs.

Spreadsheet importer available in EDG is under active maintenance. This is the 
only pre-canned option under active maintenance. All other options are as-is. 
For use cases that are outside of the current capabilities of that importer, we 
recommend and made available facilities for scripting a custom import as 
explained in https://www.datashapes.org/active/import.html#spreadsheets

Also see the video 
https://www.topquadrant.com/project/importing-data-using-active-data-shapes/


On Sep 16, 2021, at 11:25 AM, Irene Polikoff 
mailto:ir...@topquadrant.com>> wrote:
Yes, index starts with 0


On Sep 16, 2021, at 10:23 AM, 'Bohms, H.M. (Michel)' via TopBraid Suite Users 
mailto:topbraid-users@googlegroups.com>> wrote:

More info:
It only goes wrong when the first sheet is empty
If there is data classification is fine.



Dr. ir. H.M. (Michel) Bohms
Scientist Specialist
Structural Reliability

T +31 (0)88 866 31 07
M +31 (0)63 038 12 20
E michel.bo...@tno.nl<mailto:michel.bo...@tno.nl>

Location<http://www.tno.nl/locations/DTS>



<http://www.tno.nl/>

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Van: 'Bohms, H.M. (Michel)' via TopBraid Suite Users 
mailto:topbraid-users@googlegroups.com>>
Verzonden: Thursday, September 16, 2021 12:54 PM
Aan: topbraid-users@googlegroups.com<mailto:topbraid-users@googlegroups.com>
Onderwerp: [topbraid-users] third issue sheet import

In excel i have 3 sheets
1 en 3 are empty, 2 is filled:



Result:
Data from sheet 2 is classified as sheet no 1 ..



Is this expected?

Thx Michel





Dr. ir. H.M. (Michel) Bohms
Scientist Specialist
Structural Reliability

T +31 (0)88 866 31 07
M +31 (0)63 038 12 20
E michel.bo...@tno.nl<mailto:michel.bo...@tno.nl>

Location<http://www.tno.nl/locations/DTS>



<http://www.tno.nl/>

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RE: [topbraid-users] RE: third issue sheet import

2021-09-16 Thread &#x27;Bohms, H.M. (Michel)&#x27; via TopBraid Suite Users

Also in edg/import I see:

[cid:image001.png@01D7AB30.C6A43870]

Why are the underscores deleted?  Some special reason?

And here the mu is also replaced by an M:

[cid:image002.png@01D7AB30.C6A43870]

Some my issues seems more universal than just tbc-import 😊



Dr. ir. H.M. (Michel) Bohms
Scientist Specialist
Structural Reliability

T +31 (0)88 866 31 07
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Van: topbraid-users@googlegroups.com  Namens 
Irene Polikoff
Verzonden: Thursday, September 16, 2021 5:40 PM
Aan: topbraid-users@googlegroups.com
Onderwerp: Re: [topbraid-users] RE: third issue sheet import

Just noticed your message that the 1st sheet is empty.

This may be a reason as well. In some importers index starts with zero. In 
some, it starts with 1.

Overtime, several different spreadsheet importers were built. Based on our and 
customer’s experience with them, we are no longer actively maintaining 
spreadsheet import options unique to TBC. We discovered that no matter how much 
one tries, there will always be cases when a canned spreadsheet import does not 
do exactly what a user needs - because of how a particular spreadsheet is 
structured and the data in it  and/or because a canned import is not fully 
aligned with the user’s unique needs.

Spreadsheet importer available in EDG is under active maintenance. This is the 
only pre-canned option under active maintenance. All other options are as-is. 
For use cases that are outside of the current capabilities of that importer, we 
recommend and made available facilities for scripting a custom import as 
explained in https://www.datashapes.org/active/import.html#spreadsheets

Also see the video 
https://www.topquadrant.com/project/importing-data-using-active-data-shapes/


On Sep 16, 2021, at 11:25 AM, Irene Polikoff 
mailto:ir...@topquadrant.com>> wrote:
Yes, index starts with 0


On Sep 16, 2021, at 10:23 AM, 'Bohms, H.M. (Michel)' via TopBraid Suite Users 
mailto:topbraid-users@googlegroups.com>> wrote:

More info:
It only goes wrong when the first sheet is empty
If there is data classification is fine.



Dr. ir. H.M. (Michel) Bohms
Scientist Specialist
Structural Reliability

T +31 (0)88 866 31 07
M +31 (0)63 038 12 20
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Van: 'Bohms, H.M. (Michel)' via TopBraid Suite Users 
mailto:topbraid-users@googlegroups.com>>
Verzonden: Thursday, September 16, 2021 12:54 PM
Aan: topbraid-users@googlegroups.com<mailto:topbraid-users@googlegroups.com>
Onderwerp: [topbraid-users] third issue sheet import

In excel i have 3 sheets
1 en 3 are empty, 2 is filled:



Result:
Data from sheet 2 is classified as sheet no 1 ..



Is this expected?

Thx Michel





Dr. ir. H.M. (Michel) Bohms
Scientist Specialist
Structural Reliability

T +31 (0)88 866 31 07
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[topbraid-users] enriching the semantic table

2021-09-21 Thread &#x27;Bohms, H.M. (Michel)&#x27; via TopBraid Suite Users

When I have read in a semantic excel into TBC/EDG I want to convert it to a
more structured ontology (ie normalize it) via sparql construct queries.
In a sense I am splitting the big nonnormalized table into multiple tables.
In this process I have to (I assume) create IDs for individuals that were not
in the original table (more as just a column there).

Is there some standard approach for this (like create only first time when
encountered, reuse when already created )?

Thank for pointing me to the right resources!
Michel

Dr. ir. H.M. (Michel) Bohms
Scientist Specialist
Structural Reliability

T +31 (0)88 866 31 07
M +31 (0)63 038 12 20
E michel.bo...@tno.nl

Location

[cid:image001.gif@01D7AEE3.28908C90]

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RE: [topbraid-users] enriching the semantic table

2021-09-21 Thread &#x27;Bohms, H.M. (Michel)&#x27; via TopBraid Suite Users

A second approach is to make it two steps in EDG, and it sounds like you’ve
done the first. For the second, it’s probably simpler to make another graph
based on the more complex ontology as the target and write SHACL Rules (i.e.
sh:SPARQLRule) which you can include into the target traph to be executed via
the Transform tab to do the conversion. After conversion you un-include the
rules graph so you’re left with only the real ontology and data based on it.
[Bohms, H.M. (Michel)]
Indeed. This is my intention. I did the import-step 1 and now I want to do the
step 2 (conversion towards more complex multi-class ontology) with indeed
shacl/sparql- rules. (well thought of plain sparql first but I guess better as
shacl attached to the targets…). I will study the transform option.

The logic of when/if to create new URIs for things is, however, entirely up to
you. Re-generating the same URI many times is fine though, as triples
processing means that duplicates cannot be written into the graphs.
[Bohms, H.M. (Michel)]
That is what I hoped (that the deduplication was automatic)!

Will start experimenting, thx for the help, Michel

Cheers,
David

On 21 Sep 2021, at 11:21, 'Bohms, H.M. (Michel)' via TopBraid Suite Users
mailto:topbraid-users@googlegroups.com>> wrote:

Is there some standard approach for this (like create only first time when
encountered, reuse when already created )?

Thank for pointing me to the right resources!
Michel

Dr. ir. H.M. (Michel) Bohms
Scientist Specialist
Structural Reliability

T +31 (0)88 866 31 07
M +31 (0)63 038 12 20
E michel.bo...@tno.nl<mailto:michel.bo...@tno.nl>

Location<http://www.tno.nl/locations/DTS>

<http://www.tno.nl/>

UK +44 (0) 7788 561308
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RE: [topbraid-users] enriching the semantic table

2021-09-21 Thread &#x27;Bohms, H.M. (Michel)&#x27; via TopBraid Suite Users

Yes thx
I’ll start with the 2-step approach
(I called the second step conversion, first one we refer to as 
translation…syntax versus semantic transformation so to say…)

Thx Michel



Dr. ir. H.M. (Michel) Bohms
Scientist Specialist
Structural Reliability

T +31 (0)88 866 31 07
M +31 (0)63 038 12 20
E michel.bo...@tno.nl<mailto:michel.bo...@tno.nl>

Location<http://www.tno.nl/locations/DTS>



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From: topbraid-users@googlegroups.com  On 
Behalf Of Irene Polikoff
Sent: Tuesday, September 21, 2021 1:08 PM
To: topbraid-users@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [topbraid-users] enriching the semantic table

If you need to script a custom importer for EDG, here is the way to do it:

https://www.topquadrant.com/project/importing-data-using-active-data-shapes/

https://datashapes.org/active/import.html#spreadsheets

Once you script it, you can use it repeatedly. The custom import can become a 
part of the EDG UI.

If you are using TBC spreadsheet imports, then you could develop a set of rules 
or queries to post process converted RDF and save them so you could execute 
them again later. As David described, this could be done in EDG as well, but 
this means a 2 step approach to conversion.



On Sep 21, 2021, at 6:54 AM, David Price 
mailto:dpr...@topquadrant.com>> wrote:
Hi Michel,

The spreadsheet importers that are simple and out-of-the-box support a 
table-maps-to-single class scenario.

If you have a more complex ontology and data about multiple classes in the same 
spreadsheet table, then you are writing a bespoke importer rather than an EDG 
Import Spreadsheet by Template kind of thing.

One approach we take with some customers is to use an external 
spreadsheet-to-RDF mapping tool (e.g. R2RML) and then just import the RDF into 
EDG. This is particularly useful if the spreadsheets are very, very large (i.e. 
a data migration).

A second approach is to make it two steps in EDG, and it sounds like you’ve 
done the first. For the second, it’s probably simpler to make another graph 
based on the more complex ontology as the target and write SHACL Rules (i.e. 
sh:SPARQLRule) which you can include into the target traph to be executed via 
the Transform tab to do the conversion. After conversion you un-include the 
rules graph so you’re left with only the real ontology and data based on it.

The logic of when/if to create new URIs for things is, however, entirely up to 
you. Re-generating the same URI many times is fine though, as triples 
processing means that duplicates cannot be written into the graphs.

Cheers,
David


On 21 Sep 2021, at 11:21, 'Bohms, H.M. (Michel)' via TopBraid Suite Users 
mailto:topbraid-users@googlegroups.com>> wrote:

When I have read in a semantic excel into TBC/EDG I want to convert it to a 
more structured ontology (ie normalize it) via sparql construct queries.
In a sense I am splitting the big nonnormalized table into multiple tables.
In this process I have to (I assume) create IDs for individuals that were not 
in the original table (more as just a column there).

Is there some standard approach for this (like create only first time when 
encountered, reuse when already created )?

Thank for pointing me to the right resources!
Michel



Dr. ir. H.M. (Michel) Bohms
Scientist Specialist
Structural Reliability

T +31 (0)88 866 31 07
M +31 (0)63 038 12 20
E michel.bo...@tno.nl<mailto:michel.bo...@tno.nl>

Location<http://www.tno.nl/locations/DTS>



<http://www.tno.nl/>

This message may contain information that is not intended for you. If you are 
not the addressee or if this message was sent to you by mistake, you are 
requested to inform the sender and delete the message. TNO accepts no liability 
for the content of this e-mail, for the manner in which you use it and for 
damage of any kind resulting from the risks inherent to the electronic 
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RE: [topbraid-users] enriching the semantic table

2021-09-21 Thread &#x27;Bohms, H.M. (Michel)&#x27; via TopBraid Suite Users

Thx
I’ll investigate also!
(it’ s just that our inputs are already that simple (generated/recognized from 
PDFs…) standard sheets that drove me towards the 2 step approach since step 1 
provides such a nice onthefly semantic counterpart of the xlsx…)



Dr. ir. H.M. (Michel) Bohms
Scientist Specialist
Structural Reliability

T +31 (0)88 866 31 07
M +31 (0)63 038 12 20
E michel.bo...@tno.nl<mailto:michel.bo...@tno.nl>

Location<http://www.tno.nl/locations/DTS>



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From: topbraid-users@googlegroups.com  On 
Behalf Of Fan Li
Sent: Tuesday, September 21, 2021 2:55 PM
To: TopBraid Suite Users 
Subject: Re: [topbraid-users] enriching the semantic table

Just want to comment that the active data shape is my default approach for data 
import now. So much flexibility.
On Tuesday, September 21, 2021 at 7:08:08 AM UTC-4 Irene Polikoff wrote:
If you need to script a custom importer for EDG, here is the way to do it:

https://www.topquadrant.com/project/importing-data-using-active-data-shapes/

https://datashapes.org/active/import.html#spreadsheets

Once you script it, you can use it repeatedly. The custom import can become a 
part of the EDG UI.

If you are using TBC spreadsheet imports, then you could develop a set of rules 
or queries to post process converted RDF and save them so you could execute 
them again later. As David described, this could be done in EDG as well, but 
this means a 2 step approach to conversion.



On Sep 21, 2021, at 6:54 AM, David Price  wrote:
Hi Michel,

The spreadsheet importers that are simple and out-of-the-box support a 
table-maps-to-single class scenario.

If you have a more complex ontology and data about multiple classes in the same 
spreadsheet table, then you are writing a bespoke importer rather than an EDG 
Import Spreadsheet by Template kind of thing.

One approach we take with some customers is to use an external 
spreadsheet-to-RDF mapping tool (e.g. R2RML) and then just import the RDF into 
EDG. This is particularly useful if the spreadsheets are very, very large (i.e. 
a data migration).

A second approach is to make it two steps in EDG, and it sounds like you’ve 
done the first. For the second, it’s probably simpler to make another graph 
based on the more complex ontology as the target and write SHACL Rules (i.e. 
sh:SPARQLRule) which you can include into the target traph to be executed via 
the Transform tab to do the conversion. After conversion you un-include the 
rules graph so you’re left with only the real ontology and data based on it.

The logic of when/if to create new URIs for things is, however, entirely up to 
you. Re-generating the same URI many times is fine though, as triples 
processing means that duplicates cannot be written into the graphs.

Cheers,
David


On 21 Sep 2021, at 11:21, 'Bohms, H.M. (Michel)' via TopBraid Suite Users 
 wrote:

When I have read in a semantic excel into TBC/EDG I want to convert it to a 
more structured ontology (ie normalize it) via sparql construct queries.
In a sense I am splitting the big nonnormalized table into multiple tables.
In this process I have to (I assume) create IDs for individuals that were not 
in the original table (more as just a column there).

Is there some standard approach for this (like create only first time when 
encountered, reuse when already created )?

Thank for pointing me to the right resources!
Michel



Dr. ir. H.M. (Michel) Bohms
Scientist Specialist
Structural Reliability

T +31 (0)88 866 31 07
M +31 (0)63 038 12 20
E michel...@tno.nl

Location<http://www.tno.nl/locations/DTS>



<http://www.tno.nl/>

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requested to inform the sender and delete the message. TNO accepts no liability 
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damage of any kind resulting from the risks inherent to the electronic 
transmission of messages.





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Re: [topbraid-users] Re: mu

2021-09-21 Thread &#x27;Bohms, H.M. (Michel)&#x27; via TopBraid Suite Users

Thx Andy!

Op 21 sep. 2021 21:30 schreef "an...@seaborne.org" :
> zanddriehoek_180_µm_63_µm

Here it is µ == U+00B5 (Micro sign)

which is not the same as U+03BC (Greek mu).

Greek mu is allowed in prefix names. Micro sign is not in the allowed
characters.

Andy

On Thursday, 16 September 2021 at 16:28:49 UTC+1 Bohms, H.M. (Michel) wrote:
I noticed that:

zanddriehoek_180_µm_63_µm

did not result in a prefixed name

because of ‘µ’…was that to be expected?

(can change to micro ….)

Dr. ir. H.M. (Michel) Bohms
Scientist Specialist
Structural Reliability

T +31 (0)88 866 31 07
M +31 (0)63 038 12 20
E michel...@tno.nl

Location

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[topbraid-users] edg import xlsx

2021-09-22 Thread &#x27;Bohms, H.M. (Michel)&#x27; via TopBraid Suite Users

Trying to find my way in edg wrt the excel stuff

I imported by target (multiclass) ontology and now wanted to import the one 
table sheet:
[cid:image001.png@01D7AFA7.5FD8EC50]

Why can I not click " Finish"?

Thx Michel



Dr. ir. H.M. (Michel) Bohms
Scientist Specialist
Structural Reliability

T +31 (0)88 866 31 07
M +31 (0)63 038 12 20
E michel.bo...@tno.nl

Location



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RE: [topbraid-users] edg import xlsx

2021-09-22 Thread &#x27;Bohms, H.M. (Michel)&#x27; via TopBraid Suite Users

Ok, sorry

In TBC the template seems optional so I assumed etc.
Also learned that all TBC-automatic imports now need manual action…

Furthermore it says:

[cid:image001.png@01D7AFB9.5E326310]

Wrt qudt: they are all online accessible, or is this another meaning for EDG?
Wrt:shacl: I would not expect this warning from a shacl-based platform…

But ok, I’ll try to further learn edg ….

Gr michel



Dr. ir. H.M. (Michel) Bohms
Scientist Specialist
Structural Reliability

T +31 (0)88 866 31 07
M +31 (0)63 038 12 20
E michel.bo...@tno.nl<mailto:michel.bo...@tno.nl>

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From: topbraid-users@googlegroups.com  On 
Behalf Of David Price
Sent: Wednesday, September 22, 2021 12:27 PM
To: topbraid-users@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [topbraid-users] edg import xlsx

The message tells you “No templates have been installed yet”.

Best read and understand the process:

https://doc.topquadrant.com/7.0/importing/

“using Templates” must first be done with “using Patterns”.

Cheers,
David


On 22 Sep 2021, at 10:45, 'Bohms, H.M. (Michel)' via TopBraid Suite Users 
mailto:topbraid-users@googlegroups.com>> wrote:

Trying to find my way in edg wrt the excel stuff

I imported by target (multiclass) ontology and now wanted to import the one 
table sheet:


Why can I not click “ Finish”?

Thx Michel



Dr. ir. H.M. (Michel) Bohms
Scientist Specialist
Structural Reliability

T +31 (0)88 866 31 07
M +31 (0)63 038 12 20
E michel.bo...@tno.nl<mailto:michel.bo...@tno.nl>

Location<http://www.tno.nl/locations/DTS>



<http://www.tno.nl/>

This message may contain information that is not intended for you. If you are 
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RE: [topbraid-users] edg import xlsx

2021-09-22 Thread &#x27;Bohms, H.M. (Michel)&#x27; via TopBraid Suite Users

Ok my idea:

In TBC i import the xlsx (semantic table variant)
Then I export a ttl for it

I strip the data off, leaving only the one class and column properties

I import this one in edg

Then I can do import by by pattern

Selecting the one class (and prob. the attributes in the mapping…).

Strange idea?



Dr. ir. H.M. (Michel) Bohms
Scientist Specialist
Structural Reliability

T +31 (0)88 866 31 07
M +31 (0)63 038 12 20
E michel.bo...@tno.nl<mailto:michel.bo...@tno.nl>

Location<http://www.tno.nl/locations/DTS>



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From: topbraid-users@googlegroups.com  On 
Behalf Of David Price
Sent: Wednesday, September 22, 2021 2:39 PM
To: topbraid-users@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [topbraid-users] edg import xlsx

The entity type is the class in the ontology that the importer will make 
instances of. The current EDG graph must have an ontology in its 
settings/includes. That’s what the documentation means:

The Entity type for the imported data field identifies what type of assets you 
will be importing. Each row in the spreadsheet will be brought into EDG as an 
instance of the selected class and you will be able to map spreadsheet columns 
to the declared properties of the class.

FWIW if you create an EDG Ontologies first, you will find this which does 
generate the properties required, just not the class itself:

If you do not yet have a suitable target class: To import property definitions 
from a spreadsheet, create or select a class in the Ontology editor, then use 
Modify > Add property shapes from Spreadsheet columns...

Cheers,
David


On 22 Sep 2021, at 13:26, 'Bohms, H.M. (Michel)' via TopBraid Suite Users 
mailto:topbraid-users@googlegroups.com>> wrote:

Ok, I tried Import by Pattern

But then I get:



So, it does not takes, as with TBC, the worksheet name as enity type, but it 
expects a type already available…

AS I would like the system to generate the ontology from the first row…what is 
the minimum I have to do now?


Is it true that there is no ontology generation here because:
“ Each row in the spreadsheet will be brought into EDG as an instance of the 
selected class “

So:

  1.  Each row….also the first rows typically having the attribute names
  2.  Selected class, so there should be one to select already……

It feels like:
You have to define the ontology yourself now. And just import the DATA rows….
Please confirm, thx



Dr. ir. H.M. (Michel) Bohms
Scientist Specialist
Structural Reliability

T +31 (0)88 866 31 07
M +31 (0)63 038 12 20
E michel.bo...@tno.nl<mailto:michel.bo...@tno.nl>

Location<http://www.tno.nl/locations/DTS>



<http://www.tno.nl/>

This message may contain information that is not intended for you. If you are 
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From: 'Bohms, H.M. (Michel)' via TopBraid Suite Users 
mailto:topbraid-users@googlegroups.com>>
Sent: Wednesday, September 22, 2021 1:55 PM
To: topbraid-users@googlegroups.com<mailto:topbraid-users@googlegroups.com>
Subject: RE: [topbraid-users] edg import xlsx

Ok, sorry

In TBC the template seems optional so I assumed etc.
Also learned that all TBC-automatic imports now need manual action…

Furthermore it says:



Wrt qudt: they are all online accessible, or is this another meaning for EDG?
Wrt:shacl: I would not expect this warning from a shacl-based platform…

But ok, I’ll try to further learn edg ….

Gr michel



Dr. ir. H.M. (Michel) Bohms
Scientist Specialist
Structural Reliability

T +31 (0)88 866 31 07
M +31 (0)63 038 12 20
E michel.bo...@tno.nl<mailto:michel.bo...@tno.nl>

Location<http://www.tno.nl/locations/DTS>



<http://www.tno.nl/>

This message may contain information that is not intended for you. If you are 
not the addressee or if this message was sent to you by mistake, you are 
requested to inform the sender and delete the message. TNO accepts no liability 
for the content of this e-mail, for the manner in which you use it and for 
damage of any kind resulting from the risks inherent to the electronic 
transmission of messages.




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