Re: [Tutor] Starbucks does not use two-phase commit
On Sat, 21 Jan 2006, Todd Maynard wrote: I want to thank you for ruining my plans for a relaxing Saturday morning. As a thread newbie I killed several hours playing around with your code. Hi Todd, Sorry about that. I hope you were relaxing in a cafe while playing with the code. One thing I noticed is that sometimes the program would hang, which I figured was the Queue code blocking in the Ticket claim function. I used exception handling to deal with that situation cleanly. That's odd. There shouldn't be anything that blocks the code. Oh! Did you make changes to the test code, or did the hanging occur in the original code in: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/tutor/2006-January/044567.html I'm curious because nothing there should fundamentally block, assuming that _doJob() doesn't dies badly with an exception. If _doJob() dies, the server dies, and that's bad. *grin* Do you mind showing what the exception handling looks like in your code? I then decided that it wasn't very nice of Starbucks to close after accepting my order without giving me my Latte, so I changed that part of the code to: [code cut] I am 99.44% sure that this is thread safe, reasoning being: setting the acceptNew to False and adding the QUIT_NOW happens in the same thread so it is impossible for another job to get scheduled after the QUIT_NOW - so no thread will end up hanging... Bad news: no. *grin* There's a race condition. Let's go into some detail with this, since this is not obvious stuff. First, let's look at the code again --- I'll label three lines with (a), (b), and (c), to make it a little easier to see the race. ### def schedule(self,job): if self.acceptNew == True: ## (a) outputQueue=Queue() self.queue.put((job,outputQueue)) return Ticket(outputQueue) else: print Server not accepting any new requests. return None def scheduleShutdown(self): ## (b) self.queue.put((Server._QUIT_NICELY,None)) def _jobLoop(self): while True: print Looping ... (nextJob, outputQueue) = self.queue.get() if nextJob is server._QUIT_NOW: return if nextJob is server._QUIT_NICELY: ## (c) self.acceptNew = False self.queue.put((Server._QUIT_NOW,None)) else: returnValue=self._doJob(nextJob) outputQueue.put(returnValue) ## Let's imagine three threads, which I'll name C1, C2, and S. C1 and C2 will be distinct client threads, and S will be the server thread that runs through _jobLoop(). Imagine the following scenario. The server's online, and its work queue is empty. 1. C1 calls schedule(), and reaches the line labeled (a). At this point, server.acceptNew is True, so it goes into the body of the if statement. But wait... 2. Now we context switch to C2. C2 calls scheduleShutdown() in its entirety. There is now a _QUIT_NICELY element in the queue. C2 is done for. 3. Now we context switch to the server thread S. It grabs the _QUIT_NICELY, and puts a _QUIT_NOW. Let's imagine that S continues and loops again. In the next loop through _jobLoop(), it sees _QUIT_NOW and exits. S is done for. Muhahaha. 4. Now we context switch back to C1 and continue with: outputQueue = Queue() self.queue.put((job,outputQueue)) return Ticket(outputQueue) In this scenario, poor C1 is left holding a ticket that will never cash out. One way to fix this problem is to make calling schedule() and scheduleShutdown() atomic in this sense: if we're calling schedule(), we shouldn't be able to context switch into a call to scheduleShutdown(), and visa-versa. Our troubles started at step 2 of the above scenario, where two clients jostled for attention. If we prevent that particular situation --- if we force all our clients to stand in line to get served --- then we'll be fine. So we might look into some synchronizing tool, like a Lock object: http://www.python.org/doc/lib/lock-objects.html Concretely, we can add an exclusive Lock object to the server's __init__: def __init__(self): self.clientLock = Lock() and make sure to acquire-and-release in any of our schedule* functions: def schedule*(self, job): self.clientLock.acquire() try: ... finally: self.clientLock.release() However, I would sleep a little better if you could reassure me that I am right, and would sleep even better if you could give me a method to test this. I'm sorry; I can't provide either. That doesn't mean that such things don't exist, but only that I don't know about them. (The only formal training I've received on this, so far,
[Tutor] Searching for email id in MySQL giving wrong results
Hi Thanks to Allan,Danny,Pujo I did my simple python script for MySQL , the scripts add the data , and search for the data and display I have problem in searching email id ,ie If search for the [EMAIL PROTECTED] , I will not get any result , Guidance and advice needed for the reason for this behavior I had added my script in this mail Thanks Joseph John * This program is for to learn how to enter data to MySQL using python How to search not using OOP Have problem in searching email-id Why I do not get correct results when searching email id @ string search containg @ gives empty results import MySQLdb def selecter(): choice = None while choice != 0: print \ Data Base Entry for the Testing Env 0 - Quit 1 - Enter the Data 2 - Display The data 3 - Search The Company choice = raw_input(Choice :) print if choice == 0: print Good Bye ... elif choice == 1: dataentry() elif choice == 2: datashow() elif choice == 3: datasearch() def dataentry(): name = raw_input(Enter the name of the company ) email_id = raw_input(\n Enter the email ID : ) phone_no = raw_input(Enter the Phone No : ) fax_no = raw_input(\n Enter the fax no : ) db = MySQLdb.connect(host=localhost,user = john, passwd = asdlkj, db = 'learnpython') entry = db.cursor() #entry.execute(INSERT INTO contact ,(name,email_id,phone_no,fax_no,)) entry.execute(INSERT INTO contact(name,email_id,phone_no,fax_no) VALUES (%s,%s,%s,%s),(name,email_id,phone_no,fax_no,)) print name , email_id , fax_no, phone_no def datashow(): db = MySQLdb.connect(host=localhost,user = john, passwd = asdlkj, db = 'learnpython') entry = db.cursor() entry.execute(SELECT * from contact) p = entry.fetchall() print p def datasearch(): print Do U want to search by Name , email id , phone or fax choice = None while choice != 0: print \ U want to search the contacts by 0 - Quit 1 - Name 2 - email_id 3 - phone 4 - fax choice = raw_input(Choice :) print if choice == 0: print Good Bye ... elif choice == 1: searchbyname() elif choice == 2: searchbyemail() elif choice == 3: searchbyphone() elif choice == 4: searchbyfax() def searchbyname(): s_name = raw_input(Enter the name to be searched ) db = MySQLdb.connect(host=localhost,user = john, passwd = asdlkj, db = 'learnpython') entry = db.cursor() entry.execute(SELECT * FROM contact WHERE name = %s, (s_name,)) p = entry.fetchall() print p def searchbyemail(): s_email = raw_input(Enter the Email to be searched ) db = MySQLdb.connect(host=localhost,user = john, passwd = asdlkj, db = 'learnpython') entry = db.cursor() entry.execute(SELECT * FROM contact WHERE email_id = %s, (s_email,)) p = entry.fetchall() print p def searchbyphone(): s_phone= raw_input(Enter the Phone no to be searched ) db = MySQLdb.connect(host=localhost,user = john, passwd = asdlkj, db = 'learnpython') entry = db.cursor() entry.execute(SELECT * FROM contact WHERE phone_no = %s, (s_phone,)) p = entry.fetchall() print p def searchbyfax(): s_fax = raw_input(Enter the FAX no to be searched ) db = MySQLdb.connect(host=localhost,user = john, passwd = asdlkj, db = 'learnpython') entry = db.cursor() entry.execute(SELECT * FROM contact WHERE fax_no = %s, (s_fax,)) p = entry.fetchall() print p selecter() ___ Yahoo! Photos NEW, now offering a quality print service from just 8p a photo http://uk.photos.yahoo.com ___ Tutor maillist - Tutor@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/tutor
Re: [Tutor] Starbucks does not use two-phase commit
Well Danny, now I know how I am gonna spend my Sunday Thanks for the great explanation and the resources. Of course do you think I could manage to get the code to break - of course not Usually I have the opposite problem. Anyways I think that your explanation makes perfect sense. My problem with your original code is that _jobLoop could sometimes return when there where still jobs (from separateCaller) still left in the queue. When separateCaller tried to ticket.claim , the self.result = self.q.get() would block, causing the program to hang indefinitely. This is what I was trying to prevent by using the timeout in the get() call and then handling the possible Empty exception. I am now gonna play with this some more to see if I can build a robust/clean coffeeshop framework, with customers placing orders with a cashier , the cashier passing the orders to a barista and the barista processing the orders and delivering to the customers. The idea of course being that the customers, cashier, and baristas each run in different threads. Then to enhance with multiple cashiers and baristas but first I need to put another pot of coffee on. If you don't hear from me in a while, I've probably suffered a caffeine overdose. Thanks for the inspiration, Todd Maynard -- The tao that can be tar(1)ed is not the entire Tao. The path that can be specified is not the Full Path. We declare the names of all variables and functions. Yet the Tao has no type specifier. Dynamically binding, you realize the magic. Statically binding, you see only the hierarchy. Yet magic and hierarchy arise from the same source, and this source has a null pointer. Reference the NULL within NULL, it is the gateway to all wizardry. On Sunday 22 January 2006 03:13, Danny Yoo wrote: On Sat, 21 Jan 2006, Todd Maynard wrote: I want to thank you for ruining my plans for a relaxing Saturday morning. As a thread newbie I killed several hours playing around with your code. Hi Todd, Sorry about that. I hope you were relaxing in a cafe while playing with the code. One thing I noticed is that sometimes the program would hang, which I figured was the Queue code blocking in the Ticket claim function. I used exception handling to deal with that situation cleanly. That's odd. There shouldn't be anything that blocks the code. Oh! Did you make changes to the test code, or did the hanging occur in the original code in: http://mail.python.org/pipermail/tutor/2006-January/044567.html I'm curious because nothing there should fundamentally block, assuming that _doJob() doesn't dies badly with an exception. If _doJob() dies, the server dies, and that's bad. *grin* Do you mind showing what the exception handling looks like in your code? I then decided that it wasn't very nice of Starbucks to close after accepting my order without giving me my Latte, so I changed that part of the code to: [code cut] I am 99.44% sure that this is thread safe, reasoning being: setting the acceptNew to False and adding the QUIT_NOW happens in the same thread so it is impossible for another job to get scheduled after the QUIT_NOW - so no thread will end up hanging... Bad news: no. *grin* There's a race condition. Let's go into some detail with this, since this is not obvious stuff. First, let's look at the code again --- I'll label three lines with (a), (b), and (c), to make it a little easier to see the race. ### def schedule(self,job): if self.acceptNew == True: ## (a) outputQueue=Queue() self.queue.put((job,outputQueue)) return Ticket(outputQueue) else: print Server not accepting any new requests. return None def scheduleShutdown(self): ## (b) self.queue.put((Server._QUIT_NICELY,None)) def _jobLoop(self): while True: print Looping ... (nextJob, outputQueue) = self.queue.get() if nextJob is server._QUIT_NOW: return if nextJob is server._QUIT_NICELY: ## (c) self.acceptNew = False self.queue.put((Server._QUIT_NOW,None)) else: returnValue=self._doJob(nextJob) outputQueue.put(returnValue) ## Let's imagine three threads, which I'll name C1, C2, and S. C1 and C2 will be distinct client threads, and S will be the server thread that runs through _jobLoop(). Imagine the following scenario. The server's online, and its work queue is empty. 1. C1 calls schedule(), and reaches the line labeled (a). At this point, server.acceptNew is True, so it goes into the body of the if statement. But wait... 2. Now we context switch to C2. C2 calls scheduleShutdown() in its
[Tutor] webcam secrets?
i was wondering if there was a way to automatically take a picture from my webcam every oh say 5 minutes?is there anyway of doing this (im very new to programming languages.)___ Tutor maillist - Tutor@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/tutor
[Tutor] [webbrowser] some help on an error running mozilla firefox
Why does this: import webbrowser webbrowser.open('http://www.google.com)give me this: run-mozilla.sh: Cannot execute /opt/firefox/mozilla-firefox-bin.
Is this bacause 'webbrowser' does not know about the identification of 1.5?(I do not want to do it like this: import os os.system ('firefox
http://www.google.com')bacause not all of us use firefox :) )Oh and can I, when I open a new browserwindow, force it to open in the same workspace as I am with my pythonprogram and not inside another workspace where I have a browser window open?
Any enlightment would be appreciated :-)
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Re: [Tutor] webcam secrets?
That (mosttimes) is a setting in your webcamsoftware and doesn't require coding.WimOn 1/22/06, johnny` walker [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:i was wondering if there was a way to automatically take a picture from my webcam every oh say 5 minutes? is there anyway of doing this (im very new to programming languages.) ___Tutor maillist - Tutor@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/tutor ___ Tutor maillist - Tutor@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/tutor
[Tutor] Totorial announcement
I've just uploaded the completed tutoroial topic on OS access. It covers most of the common questions asked on this list about determining file access, launching programs (including use of the new subprocess module), accessing environment variables etc. It also has a short intro to bitmask manipulation and bitwise operators. I've also updated the zip, tgz and pdf files too. For those interested in printing out the PDF (someone asked me recently) it currently runs to 342 pages of A4 but the margins are set so it should work fine on US Letter paper too. Enjoy, Alan G Author of the learn to program web tutor http://www.freenetpages.co.uk/hp/alan.gauld ___ Tutor maillist - Tutor@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/tutor
Re: [Tutor] Searching for email id in MySQL giving wrong results
On Sun, 2006-01-22 at 12:43 +, John Joseph wrote:
Hi
Hi John...
Most of your problems in your code seems to be caused by a single
mistake. Compare the following two strings and you should figure out
what's wrong by yourself:
email_id = '[EMAIL PROTECTED]'
wrong_string = '''SELECT s FROM t WHERE id=%s''' , (email_id)
right_string = '''SELECT s FROM t WHERE id=%s''' % (email_id)
print Wrong:, wrong_string
print Right:, right_string
This is the output:
Wrong: ('SELECT s FROM t WHERE id=%s', '[EMAIL PROTECTED]')
Right: SELECT s FROM t WHERE [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Now, which one is the right one? And which one is the one you want?
I suggest you study strings more, especially concatenation and '%'.
If you need more help, just post to the mailing list again.
Ziyad.
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Re: [Tutor] Totorial announcement
Excellent guide. I bookmarked it :-) because I plan to use it alot.Oh, how much work (in hours) did it take it to translate your website? WimOn 1/22/06, Alan Gauld [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I've just uploaded the completed tutoroial topic on OS access.It covers most of the common questions asked on this list about determiningfile access, launching programs (including use of the new subprocess module),accessing environment variables etc. It also has a short intro to bitmaskmanipulationand bitwise operators.I've also updated the zip, tgz and pdf files too.For those interested in printing out the PDF (someone asked me recently) it currently runs to 342 pages of A4 but the margins are set so it shouldwork fine on US Letter paper too.Enjoy,Alan GAuthor of the learn to program web tutor http://www.freenetpages.co.uk/hp/alan.gauld___Tutor maillist-Tutor@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/tutor ___ Tutor maillist - Tutor@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/tutor
[Tutor] Framework recommendations for e-commerce
Greetings list This is my first post to the list, please excuse me if I mess up... OK, I'm new to Python, but not new to programming. I have years of PHP behind me, and some C# Java (to name the bigger names)... I'm asking this question here because I'm new, and it must have been discussed excessively in the python-list by now. I'm looking for suggestions on a framework for building an e-commerce solution. Must be relatively painless to extend with new features but provide a good strong base. The learning curve mustn't be too steep either :) I've seen with PHP Java that there is no single great framework. I'm looking for the best mix of powerful and fast time to market, considering I'm a newbie... So far Zope looks great, and sticking Plone on top seems like a great idea. I can then only extend Plone and a lot of basics will be covered for me... Will I be shooting myself in the foot? Best -- Kenneth Kalmer [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] stats http://fah-web.stanford.edu/cgi-bin/main.py?qtype=userpageusername=kenneth%2Ekalmer ___ Tutor maillist - Tutor@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/tutor
Re: [Tutor] webcam secrets?
Hi Johnny, As someone already said, it could be possible to do that without going into any code, but assuming you want to do it by means of Python... I assume you're using Windows, are you trying to control another application (the one that came with your webcam)? are you trying to write a program that accesses the driver for your webcam? In any case, whatever you're trying to accomplish will have a lot to do with what the operating system allows you. May I suggest you take another program or exercise more related to programming before you become complicated with so mucho weird operating system interfaces? I suppose webcams are accessed through the TWAIN infterface. There is (old) support for python, here: http://twainmodule.sourceforge.net/docs/ Hugo johnny` walker wrote: i was wondering if there was a way to automatically take a picture from my webcam every oh say 5 minutes? is there anyway of doing this (im very new to programming languages.) ___ Tutor maillist - Tutor@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/tutor ___ Tutor maillist - Tutor@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/tutor
[Tutor] I'm puzzled
Hi all,
I'm puzzled (:-))
Why will this little program crash when you enter the
enter key?
while True:
a = raw_input('number? ')
if a.isdigit():
print 'isdigit'
elif a[0] == '-' and a[1:].isdigit():
print '- + isdigit'
elif a == 'q':
break
else:
print 'no digit'
/\
Vincent
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Re: [Tutor] I'm puzzled
Why will this little program crash when you enter the enter key?
[program cut]
Hi Vincent,
What do you mean by crash? Do you get an error message? If so, can you
show us?
It will also help to think to try playing the situation out without
preconceptions. In the beginning of the loop, at:
a = raw_input('number? ')
what does 'a' contain when you hit enter?
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Re: [Tutor] I'm puzzled
I'm guessing when you did that, you got something like an IndexError.
That's because you didn't check the length of a from raw_input and
accessed a nonexistent array element (a string is an array of
characters). So if you changed the line:
elif a[0] == '-' and a[1:].isdigit():
to :
elif len(a) 1 and a[0] == '-' and a[1:].isdigit():
I expect you'll get what you want.
--Shuying
On 1/23/06, Vincent Zee [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Hi all,
I'm puzzled (:-))
Why will this little program crash when you enter the
enter key?
while True:
a = raw_input('number? ')
if a.isdigit():
print 'isdigit'
elif a[0] == '-' and a[1:].isdigit():
print '- + isdigit'
elif a == 'q':
break
else:
print 'no digit'
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Re: [Tutor] I'm puzzled
At 03:46 PM 1/22/2006, Vincent Zee wrote:
Why will this little program crash when you enter the enter key?
Thank you for including the traceback message in your 2nd post.
Index error means you tried to reference an element of a sequence
that is not there. a is the empty string when you just hit enter to
the raw_input request. It therefore has no elements, so a[0] raises
the exception.
To avoid this test first for len(a) 0.
while True:
a = raw_input('number? ')
if a.isdigit():
print 'isdigit'
elif a[0] == '-' and a[1:].isdigit():
print '- + isdigit'
elif a == 'q':
break
else:
print 'no digit'
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Re: [Tutor] I'm puzzled
Hi Vincent, the program works with any input except when you just hit the enter key. To be able to understand why is the crash, take a look at what the interpreter tells you: File untitled.py, line 12, in ? elif a[0] == '-' and a[1:].isdigit(): IndexError: string index out of range IndexError is raised whan you try to access an element in a list or string, an element that does not exist. In the case where you only press enter, what is the content of a How many characters? (hint, you may try to print a before any evaluation... Hope that gets you going, Hugo ___ Tutor maillist - Tutor@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/tutor
Re: [Tutor] python-based system programming and admin?
MMM strange needs... I'm thinking that perhaps allowing him to run idle and exporting X display to the Mac could be an option? I used to do perl on linux until I found Python, I find it very easy to run quick scripts and system stuff without having to learn BASH, sed, awk, etc separately, taht way I can do regexp, listings, recursion on directories, batch jobs, etc. Hugo ___ Tutor maillist - Tutor@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/tutor
Re: [Tutor] I'm puzzled
On Sunday, 22 January 2006 at 18:11:09 -0600, Hugo González Monteverde wrote: Hi Vincent, the program works with any input except when you just hit the enter key. To be able to understand why is the crash, take a look at what the interpreter tells you: File untitled.py, line 12, in ? elif a[0] == '-' and a[1:].isdigit(): IndexError: string index out of range IndexError is raised whan you try to access an element in a list or string, an element that does not exist. In the case where you only press enter, what is the content of a How many characters? (hint, you may try to Hi Hugo, thank you for your reply. What confused me was the fact that the isdigit method didn't complain about the empty string, so I assumed that indexing an empty string wouldn't be a problem (:-)) But now I think of it that wouldn't be logical. Sometimes the 'intelligence' of python makes me lazy (;-)) /\ Vincent ___ Tutor maillist - Tutor@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/tutor
Re: [Tutor] I'm puzzled
On Monday, 23 January 2006 at 10:59:24 +1100, Shuying Wang wrote: I'm guessing when you did that, you got something like an IndexError. That's because you didn't check the length of a from raw_input and accessed a nonexistent array element (a string is an array of characters). So if you changed the line: elif a[0] == '-' and a[1:].isdigit(): to : elif len(a) 1 and a[0] == '-' and a[1:].isdigit(): I expect you'll get what you want. Hi Shuying, thank you for your solution. /\ Vincent ___ Tutor maillist - Tutor@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/tutor
Re: [Tutor] python-based system programming and admin?
On Sun, Jan 22, 2006 at 06:19:55PM -0600, Hugo González Monteverde wrote: I used to do perl on linux until I found Python, I find it very easy to run quick scripts and system stuff without having to learn BASH, sed, awk, etc separately, taht way I can do regexp, listings, recursion on directories, batch jobs, etc. My question is exactly how to let someone do that securely on a remote machine. I've looked at ipython now, and I think it is ideal for the purpose - I just have to tell the user to ssh in and run 'ipython' to get a familiar and flexible environment. I'm thinking that perhaps allowing him to run idle and exporting X display to the Mac could be an option? The system is a server - doesn't even need X libraries, which are a significant source of security concerns. Thanks, Neal McBurnett http://bcn.boulder.co.us/~neal/ Signed and/or sealed mail encouraged. GPG/PGP Keyid: 2C9EBA60 ___ Tutor maillist - Tutor@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/tutor
Re: [Tutor] Totorial announcement
Excellent guide. I bookmarked it :-) because I plan to use it alot. Glad you like it, as you'll see I have a few more topics planned yet but each topic takes from 3-12 weeks to write... Oh, how much work (in hours) did it take it to translate your website? To translate, I don't know, some translators seem to get through the whole thing in a few months, others take a year or more. I've been working on the English version since 1998 and the rewrite to Python 2.3 took over 6 months. Working about 5-10 hours per week I guess. Alan G Author of the learn to program web tutor http://www.freenetpages.co.uk/hp/alan.gauld ___ Tutor maillist - Tutor@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/tutor
[Tutor] processing a text file w/ OO?
Hi. I'm processing a tab-delimited text file where I read in a file, perform a bunch of operations on the items, and then write them out again to a fixed-width text file. I've been doing this with a very functional approach: - loop over lines - read line into dictionary - process dictionary values ( format phone numbers and dates and amounts, etc.) - pad dictionary values with spaces - write dictionary values out to file Anyway, this all works fine. Not knowing much about OO, I'm wondering if there's a way to approach this from an object-oriented perspective. Is there anything to be gained? Or is this type of problem best tackled with a functional approach? TIA. ___ Tutor maillist - Tutor@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/tutor
Re: [Tutor] processing a text file w/ OO?
you can use regex if you want.It gives you power to do text processing.OO will give you benefit because your program becomes clearer while it is developedCheers,pujo On 1/23/06, Michael [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi.I'm processing a tab-delimited text file where I read in a file,perform a bunch of operations on the items, and then write them outagain to a fixed-width text file.I've been doing this with a very functional approach: - loop over lines- read line into dictionary- process dictionary values ( format phone numbers and dates andamounts, etc.)- pad dictionary values with spaces- write dictionary values out to file Anyway, this all works fine. Not knowing much about OO, I'm wonderingif there's a way to approach this from an object-orientedperspective. Is there anything to be gained? Or is this type ofproblem best tackled with a functional approach? TIA.___Tutor maillist-Tutor@python.orghttp://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/tutor ___ Tutor maillist - Tutor@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/tutor
