Re: [ubuntu-studio-devel] Feature Spec Discussion: introduce ubuntustudio-audio-minimal meta package
On Thu, 2014-05-22 at 08:03 +0200, Jonathan Aquilina wrote: > If you are looking for a DAW and one that isnt to bulky why not look > into LMMS. We are looking at getting 1.1 released this cycle sometime > next month. It supports a number of back ends from alsa to pulse to > jack as well as a wide range of plugins from LADSP zynsubaddfx and > VST's and much more. IMO a DAW still doesn't belong to audio core components. JFTR LMMS is _not_ the kind of DAW most musicians and engineers want to use. It's more common that musicians and engineers are used to DAWs similar to Qtractor, Ardour 3 and Rosegarden. Nearly nobody expect a DAW to be light weighted, a common work-flow, more or less self-explaining GUI more often is wanted. Regards, Ralf Btw. I've never seen a stable version of Enlightenment. Xfce4 and JWM are stable. -- ubuntu-studio-devel mailing list ubuntu-studio-devel@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-studio-devel
Re: [ubuntu-studio-devel] Feature Spec Discussion: introduce ubuntustudio-audio-minimal meta package
On Thu, 22 May 2014, Jonathan Aquilina wrote: If you are looking for a DAW and one that isnt to bulky why not look into LMMS. We are looking at getting 1.1 released this cycle sometime next month. It supports a number of back ends from alsa to pulse to jack as well as a wide range of plugins from LADSP zynsubaddfx and VST's and much more. Does/will it support recording audio directly? The current version does not making less than what I would consider a DAW. LMMS does fill an important part of our audio pallet in any case and so will be part of our available audio applications and come as part of our main live ISO as it does now. -- Len Ovens www.ovenwerks.net -- ubuntu-studio-devel mailing list ubuntu-studio-devel@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-studio-devel
Re: [ubuntu-studio-devel] Feature Spec Discussion: introduce ubuntustudio-audio-minimal meta package
I agree that ubuntustudio-audio-minimal should not include any applications beyond audio plumbing, but where the plumbing needs to be all-inclusive and comprehensive - so that you know you can do any kind of audio work after installing that package. I think we should include a very minor amount of applications on our "minimal" ISO - and my original thought was that out of the audio apps, those could be included in ubuntustudio-audio-minimal, but now I disagree with that. -- ubuntu-studio-devel mailing list ubuntu-studio-devel@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-studio-devel
Re: [ubuntu-studio-devel] Feature Spec Discussion: introduce ubuntustudio-audio-minimal meta package
If you are looking for a DAW and one that isnt to bulky why not look into LMMS. We are looking at getting 1.1 released this cycle sometime next month. It supports a number of back ends from alsa to pulse to jack as well as a wide range of plugins from LADSP zynsubaddfx and VST's and much more. On Thu, May 22, 2014 at 5:09 AM, Len Ovens wrote: > On Thu, 22 May 2014, Ralf Mardorf wrote: > > On Wed, 2014-05-21 at 13:54 -0700, Len Ovens wrote: >> >>> On Wed, 21 May 2014, Kaj Ailomaa wrote: >>> pulseaudio-module-jack gladish >>> >> I wouldn't include pulseaudio and especially not gladish. >> > > Hard to take your idea about pulse seriously as your hate for both pulse > and it's author have been well expressed. I knpw there are ways to get > around using pulse and still having desktop sound, but they all require > hacking the desktop packages to make it happen. This would require more > maintenance than we are ever likely to have manpower for. > > I personally don't use gladish either, but it may make test setup more > reproducable in some cases. > > > The only thing I can think that is missing is some kind of patch bay for >>> jack. >>> >> >> I would include aj-snapshot. Not a patchbay, but a good tool to store >> and restore connections. >> > > Anything that can show what is connected, what ports are available and > allows connecting ports in some easier way than typing out the whole port > names. > > -- > Len Ovens > www.ovenwerks.net > > > > -- > ubuntu-studio-devel mailing list > ubuntu-studio-devel@lists.ubuntu.com > Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/ > mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-studio-devel > -- Jonathan Aquilina -- ubuntu-studio-devel mailing list ubuntu-studio-devel@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-studio-devel
Re: [ubuntu-studio-devel] Feature Spec Discussion: introduce ubuntustudio-audio-minimal meta package
On Thu, 22 May 2014, Ralf Mardorf wrote: On Wed, 2014-05-21 at 13:54 -0700, Len Ovens wrote: On Wed, 21 May 2014, Kaj Ailomaa wrote: pulseaudio-module-jack gladish I wouldn't include pulseaudio and especially not gladish. Hard to take your idea about pulse seriously as your hate for both pulse and it's author have been well expressed. I knpw there are ways to get around using pulse and still having desktop sound, but they all require hacking the desktop packages to make it happen. This would require more maintenance than we are ever likely to have manpower for. I personally don't use gladish either, but it may make test setup more reproducable in some cases. The only thing I can think that is missing is some kind of patch bay for jack. I would include aj-snapshot. Not a patchbay, but a good tool to store and restore connections. Anything that can show what is connected, what ports are available and allows connecting ports in some easier way than typing out the whole port names. -- Len Ovens www.ovenwerks.net -- ubuntu-studio-devel mailing list ubuntu-studio-devel@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-studio-devel
Re: [ubuntu-studio-devel] Feature Spec Discussion: introduce ubuntustudio-audio-minimal meta package
On Wed, 2014-05-21 at 13:54 -0700, Len Ovens wrote: > On Wed, 21 May 2014, Kaj Ailomaa wrote: > > pulseaudio-module-jack > > gladish I wouldn't include pulseaudio and especially not gladish. > The only thing I can think that is missing is some kind of patch bay for > jack. I would include aj-snapshot. Not a patchbay, but a good tool to store and restore connections. -- ubuntu-studio-devel mailing list ubuntu-studio-devel@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-studio-devel
Re: [ubuntu-studio-devel] Feature Spec Discussion: introduce ubuntustudio-audio-minimal meta package
On Wed, 21 May 2014, Jimmy Sjölund wrote: Shouldn't there be a DAW of some kind? Ardour is the main that comes to mind, but I suppose is rather big? No. Not in the audio-minimal. There are a number of daws around, but what we do want to include is enough so that any DAW will work. I am personally not sure about including plugins. A reasonably complete synth (hopefully GM based) so sound can be made, But not a beat box or sequencer as that is a user choice. We are moving out of the huge meta thing and into choosing applications that the user wants for their workflow. There are some people who might be happy with no MIDI stuff at all. My own reality is that all of my recording to this point has used no Synth sounds or MIDI control. So I could be very happy with guitarix and ardour plus a good set of effects plugins. On the other hand, the SW/OS I have on my drive takes up a very small percentage of drive space even with all of studio on it plus other SW on top of that. Our custom menu keeps all these applications managable. Once we add an application, it can be removed but, that application may have brought in depends that would not be removed with the removal of that app. It would be best just to install those things that are wanted/needed in the first place as much as possible. -- Len Ovens www.ovenwerks.net -- ubuntu-studio-devel mailing list ubuntu-studio-devel@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-studio-devel
Re: [ubuntu-studio-devel] Feature Spec Discussion: introduce ubuntustudio-audio-minimal meta package
On Wed, 21 May 2014, Kaj Ailomaa wrote: An ubuntustudio-audio-minimal package would make it easier for users to install only the core audio applications for the audio workflows. Also, it could be used in our suggested smaller ISO. What should it include? Out of the current packages available, I'm thinking: # audio plumbing and tools jackd I am assuming this is the jackd we have now that includes jackdbus. a2jmidid alsa tools and utils (alsa-tools, alsa-tools-gui, alsa-utils) ffado (ffado-tools, ffado-dbus-server, ffado-mixer-qt4) pulseaudio-module-jack gladish The only thing I can think that is missing is some kind of patch bay for jack. I would suggest jack.tools too. (in fact, even though it is CLI only I would suggest adding it to the main ISO as well.) I am thinking in terms of tools that can be used for automated testing from scripts. # ubuntu studio kernel linux-lowlatency (already depends on rtirq-init) rtirq-init # midi essentials vkeybd midi tools (gmidimonitor, qmidiarp, qmidinet, qmidiroute) jack zita-ajbridge Possibly also jack-rack and a small selection of great plugins? Many of these assume X. I don't have a comment one way or the other really. I am guessing the small iso already presupposes X and gtk so ubiquity can run. I would suggest trying to keep the lib set needed as small as we can. That is try to fill this with meta with tools that are all based on the same toolkit. For example, you have not included qjackctl, but it would pull in all the qt libs. The starting and stopping of jackd(bus) does not require much, but the patchbay for many people needs to be there. I know -controls is meant to be able to set up and run jackd(bus) but is it also intended to allow connecting jack ports? Speaking of patchbays. A qjackctl like patchbay for PA would be nice too, I have seen a lot of people asking how to route audio from application to application with pulse. -- Len Ovens www.ovenwerks.net -- ubuntu-studio-devel mailing list ubuntu-studio-devel@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-studio-devel
Re: [ubuntu-studio-devel] Feature Spec Discussion: introduce ubuntustudio-audio-minimal meta package
PS: About "core". https://www.archlinux.org/packages/extra/x86_64/xorg-server/ xorg-server is part of Arch's "extra" repository, IOW Arch's "core" repository doesn't include X. The term "core" in *nixland is for basal software. So the "extension", the definition of "audio core" should be similar. Likely a GUI for jackd usage already shouldn't be considered as an "audio core" component. We could discuss if e.g. qjackctl anyway should be an "audio core" component, but Ardour completely is out of scope. -- ubuntu-studio-devel mailing list ubuntu-studio-devel@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-studio-devel
Re: [ubuntu-studio-devel] Feature Spec Discussion: introduce ubuntustudio-audio-minimal meta package
On Wed, 2014-05-21 at 15:06 +0200, Jimmy Sjölund wrote: > On Wed, May 21, 2014 at 3:03 PM, Ralf Mardorf > wrote: > On Wed, 2014-05-21 at 14:43 +0200, Jimmy Sjölund wrote: > > > > So what would you do after installation? In my world I need > an > > application to record something, otherwise I don't know what > the use > > of the iso is? > > > For what usage? To record audio only, to record MIDI only, to > record > audio and MIDI? Etc. pp.. > > A "core" editor should be something like "vi", "nano" or > similar, that > doesn't mean that for some tasks "Sublime Text" might be a > much better > editor. "Core" is for something that is needed as a base and > that it's > something that maintainers should keep stable whatever > happens. > > > Maybe I'm missing something, but why would then plugins be included? The more you include to "core", the harder is to ensure that it's stable. "In FreeBSD, the term “world” includes the kernel, core system binaries, libraries, programming files, and built-in compiler." User space for BSD and Linux based systems is another issue. "Core" components are basal stuff. For audio the interpretation of "core" components is something like alsa and jackd, but regarding to a "core" *nix install even those aren't core components. As an analogy I mentioned rudimentary editors to maintain a broken install, compared to bloated GUI editors, that provide much comfort, but that easily could break. "Core", is for core, is for core. A DAW is very complex thingy. -- ubuntu-studio-devel mailing list ubuntu-studio-devel@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-studio-devel
Re: [ubuntu-studio-devel] Feature Spec Discussion: introduce ubuntustudio-audio-minimal meta package
On Wed, May 21, 2014 at 3:03 PM, Ralf Mardorf wrote: > On Wed, 2014-05-21 at 14:43 +0200, Jimmy Sjölund wrote: > > > > So what would you do after installation? In my world I need an > > application to record something, otherwise I don't know what the use > > of the iso is? > > For what usage? To record audio only, to record MIDI only, to record > audio and MIDI? Etc. pp.. > > A "core" editor should be something like "vi", "nano" or similar, that > doesn't mean that for some tasks "Sublime Text" might be a much better > editor. "Core" is for something that is needed as a base and that it's > something that maintainers should keep stable whatever happens. > > Maybe I'm missing something, but why would then plugins be included? -- ubuntu-studio-devel mailing list ubuntu-studio-devel@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-studio-devel
Re: [ubuntu-studio-devel] Feature Spec Discussion: introduce ubuntustudio-audio-minimal meta package
On Wed, 2014-05-21 at 14:43 +0200, Jimmy Sjölund wrote: > So what would you do after installation? In my world I need an > application to record something, otherwise I don't know what the use > of the iso is? For what usage? To record audio only, to record MIDI only, to record audio and MIDI? Etc. pp.. A "core" editor should be something like "vi", "nano" or similar, that doesn't mean that for some tasks "Sublime Text" might be a much better editor. "Core" is for something that is needed as a base and that it's something that maintainers should keep stable whatever happens. -- ubuntu-studio-devel mailing list ubuntu-studio-devel@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-studio-devel
Re: [ubuntu-studio-devel] Feature Spec Discussion: introduce ubuntustudio-audio-minimal meta package
On Wed, May 21, 2014 at 2:34 PM, Ralf Mardorf wrote: > Jimmy Sjölund wrote: > > Kaj Ailomaa wrote: > >> core audio applications > > Shouldn't there be a DAW of some kind? > > For my understanding a DAW isn't an audio core component. > A DAW only is useful, when there are also plugins etc. available. > Plainly spoken, just ALSA would be hardcore core, but I guess it's easy > to understand what Kaj does mean. For audio production jackd likely is > important too, we could consider it an audio core component. IMHO > pulseaudio isn't a core component and for sure Ardour is completely not > a core component. > > So what would you do after installation? In my world I need an application to record something, otherwise I don't know what the use of the iso is? -- ubuntu-studio-devel mailing list ubuntu-studio-devel@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-studio-devel
Re: [ubuntu-studio-devel] Feature Spec Discussion: introduce ubuntustudio-audio-minimal meta package
Jimmy Sjölund wrote: > Kaj Ailomaa wrote: >> core audio applications > Shouldn't there be a DAW of some kind? For my understanding a DAW isn't an audio core component. A DAW only is useful, when there are also plugins etc. available. Plainly spoken, just ALSA would be hardcore core, but I guess it's easy to understand what Kaj does mean. For audio production jackd likely is important too, we could consider it an audio core component. IMHO pulseaudio isn't a core component and for sure Ardour is completely not a core component. -- ubuntu-studio-devel mailing list ubuntu-studio-devel@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-studio-devel
Re: [ubuntu-studio-devel] Feature Spec Discussion: introduce ubuntustudio-audio-minimal meta package
On Wed, May 21, 2014 at 12:49 PM, Kaj Ailomaa wrote: > An ubuntustudio-audio-minimal package would make it easier for users to > install only the core audio applications for the audio workflows. Also, > it could be used in our suggested smaller ISO. > > What should it include? > > Out of the current packages available, I'm thinking: > > # audio plumbing and tools > jackd > a2jmidid > alsa tools and utils (alsa-tools, alsa-tools-gui, alsa-utils) > ffado (ffado-tools, ffado-dbus-server, ffado-mixer-qt4) > pulseaudio-module-jack > gladish > > # ubuntu studio kernel > linux-lowlatency (already depends on rtirq-init) > rtirq-init > > # midi essentials > vkeybd > midi tools (gmidimonitor, qmidiarp, qmidinet, qmidiroute) > jack > zita-ajbridge > > Possibly also jack-rack and a small selection of great plugins? > > Shouldn't there be a DAW of some kind? Ardour is the main that comes to mind, but I suppose is rather big? -- ubuntu-studio-devel mailing list ubuntu-studio-devel@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-studio-devel
Re: [ubuntu-studio-devel] Feature Spec Discussion: introduce ubuntustudio-audio-minimal meta package
On Wed, May 21, 2014, at 12:49 PM, Kaj Ailomaa wrote: > Out of the current packages available, I'm thinking: > > # audio plumbing and tools > jackd > a2jmidid > alsa tools and utils (alsa-tools, alsa-tools-gui, alsa-utils) > ffado (ffado-tools, ffado-dbus-server, ffado-mixer-qt4) > pulseaudio-module-jack > gladish > > # ubuntu studio kernel > linux-lowlatency (already depends on rtirq-init) > rtirq-init > > # midi essentials > vkeybd > midi tools (gmidimonitor, qmidiarp, qmidinet, qmidiroute) > jack > zita-ajbridge > > Possibly also jack-rack and a small selection of great plugins? > I forgot to add ubuntustudio-controls, which when it is rewritten and made functional will be one of our core components. -- ubuntu-studio-devel mailing list ubuntu-studio-devel@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-studio-devel
[ubuntu-studio-devel] Feature Spec Discussion: introduce ubuntustudio-audio-minimal meta package
An ubuntustudio-audio-minimal package would make it easier for users to install only the core audio applications for the audio workflows. Also, it could be used in our suggested smaller ISO. What should it include? Out of the current packages available, I'm thinking: # audio plumbing and tools jackd a2jmidid alsa tools and utils (alsa-tools, alsa-tools-gui, alsa-utils) ffado (ffado-tools, ffado-dbus-server, ffado-mixer-qt4) pulseaudio-module-jack gladish # ubuntu studio kernel linux-lowlatency (already depends on rtirq-init) rtirq-init # midi essentials vkeybd midi tools (gmidimonitor, qmidiarp, qmidinet, qmidiroute) jack zita-ajbridge Possibly also jack-rack and a small selection of great plugins? -- ubuntu-studio-devel mailing list ubuntu-studio-devel@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-studio-devel
