Re: Sorting and German (was: Sorting and Volapük)
Kent Karlsson wrote [2012-01-02 22:03+0100]: > Except that MacOS X *applications* (as apart from more POSIXy programs, > and Terminal.app) should not use the POSIX locales, but should use the > CLDR locales (via an Apple API or via ICU)... (Yes, I know, CLDR have > POSIX locales format files covering **some** of the CLDR data...) Well, i've got good hardware and i've got a great operating system, but unfortunately my prepaid internet stick is dongled with software and that doesn't support the latter, but only a fruit ... and that (but i dunno) UTF-16 thing with the 2-byte wchar_t. (And to be honest - my beloved OS does not really support Unicode yet. Blow fish.) I don't know what you are talking about, vim(1) works fine even here. > And ISO 8859-15? Really? I don't even find it in the list of encodings > Terminal.app supports (but maybe that is just me not finding it). > Terminal.app by default uses UTF-8. If our french friend wants to do some sorting, and doesn't have any programming capabilities (in which case i would point him to use perl(1), since those guys actually love Unicode - and even their users, too; maybe they make it and do completely penetrate the former, because they're real heroes), then $ LC_ALL=xy cut(1) colrm(1) sort(1) whatever_pipe should be a flexible way to sort data in the mentioned language, and which takes three button clicks only! (Applications -> Utilities -> Terminal.app == 3!!) > And ISO 8859-15? Really? ,P But i admit, i use ':read !echo $LC_ALL' -> en_GB.UTF-8, and i'm a fanatic fan of Unicode, not at last since it enables me to use my Klingon mother tongue here on earth, and with vim(1)!! And the € sign is just working, so nobody can tell lies about political pressure or even power politics or similar PP. Maybe the plain C standard, which is about to cover a garbage collector and a graphical user interface (C 2013.42), will also offer a graphical dialog box where users can directly fine-tune all behaviours of character data. That would be nice, and a real improvement. No, our french friend will need additional data from http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/cvsweb.cgi/src/share/mklocale/ anyway, and the UTF-8 data can be downloaded from just the very same locations, if necessary. I introduced the missing colldef(1) part and some locations were he can download the necessary locale sources from. For free. But with some effort. P.S.: And one thing i really need to add. That Ecartis mailing list manager does not conform to any just any standard. Since *decades* there are RFC 934 and RFC 1153, and it gives a PEEP. And it even seems to mess up 'From 's. That doesn't say anything about Unicode itself, though. Have a good time. --steffen
Re: Sorting and German (was: Sorting and Volapük)
Except that MacOS X *applications* (as apart from more POSIXy programs, and Terminal.app) should not use the POSIX locales, but should use the CLDR locales (via an Apple API or via ICU)... (Yes, I know, CLDR have POSIX locales format files covering **some** of the CLDR data...) And ISO 8859-15? Really? I don't even find it in the list of encodings Terminal.app supports (but maybe that is just me not finding it). Terminal.app by default uses UTF-8. /K Den 2012-01-02 20:10, skrev "Steffen Daode Nurpmeso" : > Hi, > >>> How? I am not a programmer. > > Applications -> Utilities -> Terminal.app > $ man 1 mklocale > $ man 1 colldef > >> pay somebody to do it for you > > $ cd $TMPDIR > $ mkdir c:\\vodka && cd c\:\\vodka # yes it's still Mac OS X > $ curl > 'http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/cvsweb.cgi/~checkout~/src/share/colldef/de_DE.ISO8 > 859-15.src?rev=1.6.44.1.2.1;content-type=text/plain' > de_DE.ISO8859-15.src > $ curl > 'http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/cvsweb.cgi/~checkout~/src/share/colldef/map.ISO885 > 9-15?rev=1.1.6.1;content-type=text/plain' > map.ISO8859-15 > $ echo adjustments are beyond my scope > $ colldef -o VALOPUEK < de_DE.ISO8859-15.src > $ sudo mv VALOPUEK /usr/share/locale/VALOPUEK > $ export LC_COLLATE=VOLAPUEK > $ echo sorting should work now > >> The University of Edinburgh > > Cheerio, Miss Sophie! > (That's http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NDqD0Dz_J-M according to > Google, and only because there are so many germans around here; > but happy new year to all of you, even to those which use > a different calendar and don't drink alcohol. > Long live small, easy and otherwise beautiful standards.) > > --steffen >
Re: Sorting and German (was: Sorting and Volapük)
Hi, > >How? I am not a programmer. Applications -> Utilities -> Terminal.app $ man 1 mklocale $ man 1 colldef > pay somebody to do it for you $ cd $TMPDIR $ mkdir c:\\vodka && cd c\:\\vodka # yes it's still Mac OS X $ curl 'http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/cvsweb.cgi/~checkout~/src/share/colldef/de_DE.ISO8859-15.src?rev=1.6.44.1.2.1;content-type=text/plain' > de_DE.ISO8859-15.src $ curl 'http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/cvsweb.cgi/~checkout~/src/share/colldef/map.ISO8859-15?rev=1.1.6.1;content-type=text/plain' > map.ISO8859-15 $ echo adjustments are beyond my scope $ colldef -o VALOPUEK < de_DE.ISO8859-15.src $ sudo mv VALOPUEK /usr/share/locale/VALOPUEK $ export LC_COLLATE=VOLAPUEK $ echo sorting should work now > The University of Edinburgh Cheerio, Miss Sophie! (That's http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NDqD0Dz_J-M according to Google, and only because there are so many germans around here; but happy new year to all of you, even to those which use a different calendar and don't drink alcohol. Long live small, easy and otherwise beautiful standards.) --steffen
Re: Sorting and German (was: Sorting and Volapük)
On 2012-01-01, Michael Everson wrote: > So it is. Do you know how to compile system-level sorting algorithms for such > a real operating system? No, but if I wanted to I would find out. If MacOS has left the standard-ish Unixy documentation around, man 5 locale should tell you the format of locale files (with reference to examples that you may have to obtain separately if they're not included with MacOS). and man localedef should tell you how to compile a locale definition. [Elsewhere:] >More than anyone else, and we need a locale. >How? I am not a programmer. Become one! But you don't need to be much of one - locale definition files don't appear to be very complicated. However, if you don't want to become a programmer, and you have a niche need, pay somebody to do it for you. Any competent programmer with a Mac and some I18N experience ought to be able to do it in an hour or so. (I would offer, but I know nothing about Mac system administration, or the innards of the Mac variant of Unix.) -- The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in Scotland, with registration number SC005336.
Re: Sorting and Volapük (from Re: Sorting and German (was: Sorting and Volapük))
Michael Everson wrote: > On 1 Jan 2012, at 19:46, Julian Bradfield wrote: ... > > So you should be able to define your own locales. > > How? I am not a programmer. Well, the first step is to try to find out what is needed, by trying to find an analogous case. For example, does your computer have either a file with multiple entries, one for each locale, or does it have separate files, one for each locale? If the latter, could you possibly post the file for French here please so that those who are interested can have a look at it and maybe figure out how to produce an equivalent file for Volapük. Depending upon the way that the files are encoded, that could be anything from straightforward, to complicated to all-but-impossible. That is how programming problems can go. Some are solved straightforwardly and some are not. Now certainly, it might not be just a matter of producing another file: there might possibly, for example, also be a file somewhere else with a list of locales and that might be impossible to alter, so producing a new file is not necessarily enough. However, it is worth having a go at trying to produce a new file, then either putting it into the same directory as the file for French, or, if each locale has its own folder, making a new folder and locating the new file in that new folder; rebooting the computer and observing whether that is enough to get a working result. > > If you don't want to install them in the system locale directory, you may > > need to mess around a bit. > > How? I am using a PC and have only ever used a Mac a few times many years ago, so I cannot help with that part of solving the problem. However, there may well be people on this list who can advise you on that part. William Overington 2 January 2012
Re: Sorting and German (was: Sorting and Volapük)
On 1 Jan 2012, at 21:13, Erkki I Kolehmainen wrote: > How much data do you have for Volapük? More than anyone else, and we need a locale. I did not know there were two lists. Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/
RE: Sorting and German (was: Sorting and Volapük)
Michael, At least I haven't seen your note on the cldr list, which probably means that you are not a subscriber of that list. Mind you, the cldr list and the cldr-users list are separate lists. This discussion would really belong to the cldr-users list, as Kent was suggesting. How much data do you have for Volapük? Regards, Erkki -Alkuperäinen viesti- Lähettäjä: unicode-bou...@unicode.org [mailto:unicode-bou...@unicode.org] Puolesta Michael Everson Lähetetty: 1. tammikuuta 2012 22:51 Vastaanottaja: unicode Unicode Discussion Aihe: Re: Sorting and German (was: Sorting and Volapük) On 1 Jan 2012, at 20:10, Kent Karlsson wrote: > Not sure why this discussion is on the Unicode list instead of the cldr-users list... Anyhow... I posted to c...@unicode.org and had no response. > While I do find (in CLDR's collation de.xml) a > I don't find any variant doing the Austrian phonebook variant you mention. > > Maybe you could file a ticket for adding that to CLDR. (Using that > same tailoring for Volapük is a separate matter.) I don't really care about Austrian sorting. I need to sort Volapük data. Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/
Re: Sorting and German (was: Sorting and Volapük)
On 1 Jan 2012, at 19:46, Julian Bradfield wrote: > I thought MacOS was a real operating system underneath the glitz? So it is. Do you know how to compile system-level sorting algorithms for such a real operating system? Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/
Re: Sorting and German (was: Sorting and Volapük)
On 1 Jan 2012, at 20:10, Kent Karlsson wrote: > Not sure why this discussion is on the Unicode list instead of the cldr-users > list... Anyhow... I posted to c...@unicode.org and had no response. > While I do find (in CLDR's collation de.xml) a > I don't find any variant doing the Austrian phonebook variant you mention. > > Maybe you could file a ticket for adding that to CLDR. (Using that > same tailoring for Volapük is a separate matter.) I don't really care about Austrian sorting. I need to sort Volapük data. Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/
Re: Sorting and German (was: Sorting and Volapük)
On 1 Jan 2012, at 19:46, Julian Bradfield wrote: > On 2012-01-01, Michael Everson wrote: >> Except that the Mac OS does not offer an Austrian phone-book sort. So I >> shall have to hope that a Volapük CLDR locale can be produced. > > I thought MacOS was a real operating system underneath the glitz? No reason to be snarky. > So you should be able to define your own locales. How? I am not a programmer. > If you don't want to install them in the system locale directory, you may > need to mess around a bit. How? Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/
Re: Sorting and German (was: Sorting and Volapük)
Not sure why this discussion is on the Unicode list instead of the cldr-users list... Anyhow... While I do find (in CLDR's collation de.xml) a I don't find any variant doing the Austrian phonebook variant you mention. Maybe you could file a ticket for adding that to CLDR. (Using that same tailoring for Volapük is a separate matter.) /Kent K Den 2012-01-01 18:46, skrev "Otto Stolz" : > In Austria, a third scheme is used in telefone directories > (but not in the yellow pages): Here, Ä, Ö, and Ü, are > indeed treated as distinct letters, to go between A and B, > O and P, and U and V, respectively; and ß is treated as a > distinct pair of letters, ro go between SS and ST.
Re: Sorting and German (was: Sorting and Volapük)
On 2012-01-01, Michael Everson wrote: > Except that the Mac OS does not offer an Austrian phone-book sort. So I shall > have to hope that a Volapük CLDR locale can be produced. I thought MacOS was a real operating system underneath the glitz? So you should be able to define your own locales. If you don't want to install them in the system locale directory, you may need to mess around a bit. -- The University of Edinburgh is a charitable body, registered in Scotland, with registration number SC005336.
Re: Sorting and German (was: Sorting and Volapük)
On 1 Jan 2012, at 17:56, Peter Cyrus wrote: > Sounds like Michael could use the Austrian system. Except that the Mac OS does not offer an Austrian phone-book sort. So I shall have to hope that a Volapük CLDR locale can be produced. Michael Everson * http://www.evertype.com/
Re: Sorting and German (was: Sorting and Volapük)
Sounds like Michael could use the Austrian system. On Sun, Jan 1, 2012 at 6:46 PM, Otto Stolz wrote: > Happy New Year, > > on Sun, Jan 1, 2012 at 4:27 PM, > Michael Everson wrote: > Volapük sorts [...] ä a > separate letter after a, ö separate after o, >> >> and ü separate after u. >> does anyone know if any other language treats ä/ö/ü in the same way? > > > Am 2012-01-01 16:54, schrieb Peter Cyrus: >> >> German does both, > > > Not really. > > According to DIN 5007, > German features two different sort orders: > • In lists of personal names, Ä, Ö, Ü may be sorted > as AE, OE, and UE, respectively; this order is > mainly used in telefone directories. > • In dictionaries and encyclopedias, Ä, Ö, Ü are sorted > as A, O, and U, respectively. > > As encyclopedias may well comprise personal names, > the scope of the former scheme is not well defined, > imho, and I stick to the latter one, whenever I have > to sort a list. > > In both schemes, ß is sorted as SS. > > In both schemes, true A (or AE, respectively) goes before Ä, > iff two sort keys are otherwise identical; likewise for > Ö, Ü, and ß. > > In Austria, a third scheme is used in telefone directories > (but not in the yellow pages): Here, Ä, Ö, and Ü, are > indeed treated as distinct letters, to go between A and B, > O and P, and U and V, respectively; and ß is treated as a > distinct pair of letters, ro go between SS and ST. > > Best wishes, > Otto Stolz > >
Sorting and German (was: Sorting and Volapük)
Happy New Year, on Sun, Jan 1, 2012 at 4:27 PM, Michael Everson wrote: > Volapük sorts [...] ä a separate letter after a, ö separate after o, and ü separate after u. does anyone know if any other language treats ä/ö/ü in the same way? Am 2012-01-01 16:54, schrieb Peter Cyrus: German does both, Not really. According to DIN 5007, German features two different sort orders: • In lists of personal names, Ä, Ö, Ü may be sorted as AE, OE, and UE, respectively; this order is mainly used in telefone directories. • In dictionaries and encyclopedias, Ä, Ö, Ü are sorted as A, O, and U, respectively. As encyclopedias may well comprise personal names, the scope of the former scheme is not well defined, imho, and I stick to the latter one, whenever I have to sort a list. In both schemes, ß is sorted as SS. In both schemes, true A (or AE, respectively) goes before Ä, iff two sort keys are otherwise identical; likewise for Ö, Ü, and ß. In Austria, a third scheme is used in telefone directories (but not in the yellow pages): Here, Ä, Ö, and Ü, are indeed treated as distinct letters, to go between A and B, O and P, and U and V, respectively; and ß is treated as a distinct pair of letters, ro go between SS and ST. Best wishes, Otto Stolz
