Re: OT: Re: Issue-wise Crowdfunding platform for Maven

[Benson Margulies]

On Wed, Jul 18, 2012 at 12:27 PM, Tony Lâmpada  wrote:
> Hi Benson,
>
> thankings for bringing that subject up.
>
> We have been giving a lot of thought into questions like

Tony,

I'm just one Foundation member. This isn't the list to be
communicating with if you want to engage with the Foundation in a more
formal way. Anything I write here is just my opinion. The community
development project would be better.

It seems to me that this model of yours has the least risk of
community problems when the issues are relatively small and compact --
'fix this bug.' Often, though not always, a bug is a bug, and a clean
patch for a bugfix, complete with test case, will be gratefully
committed.

However, even this has room for entertainment.

When I commit patches, sometimes I do some pretty serious rework on
them. If I thought that the poster was going to get paid as a result
of my efforts, I might be troubled.

Even bug fixes can be the subject of design and architecture
disagreement. If someone has money riding on getting a patch
committed, I could see some additional friction.

I don't see the fuss about forks. The person either putting up the
money either wants the change integrated into the trunk or not. If
they are happy with a fix made in their very own fork, why should
anyone else care? The AL is fork-friendly.

The other side of this coin is that forking, as a development
strategy, is a great way to fail to get your work into the trunk,
especially forking without community engagement. The Apache approach
works best with small, incremental, changes. If the posted bounty is
for some gigantic feature, this creates friction. The person doing the
work only gets paid for the whole thing, but the process will extend
over time and might bog down in the middle.

The Foundation has a very strong set of values around volunteer
status. Yes, people get paid for their work on ASF projects. However,
they interact with with the projects as individuals, not as employees
or contractors. Once again, for small stuff, this is fine.
Contributing a patch works fine so long as the contributor is willing
to work with the community. For a bigger, strategic, contribution, the
expectation is that someone is going to earn the respect of the
community on small stuff before proposing something major. People who
show up and say, 'I'd like to add this giant thing' often are met with
some resistance.




>
> 1) What problem-scenarios might arise when a lot of people starts using
> FreedomSponsors?




> 2) And what would be the best way to address those problems?
> 3) How should FreedomSponsors evolve to best serve the open source
> community?
>
> And forking is one of our concerns as well. It surely fits (1)
> We believe that, generally speaking, forking is a bad thing.
>
> Please take a look at this "Feedback issue" (which is curently an
> improvement under develeopment) -->
> http://www.freedomsponsors.org/core/issue/7/add-two-checkboxes-to-the-offer-form-1-no-forking-2-require-release
>
> We want to encourage sponsors to fund the original projects - so the "No
> forking" checkbox will come checked by default in the "Sponsor Issue"
> screen.
> If the user unchecks it, a popup window will be displayed, explaining the
> bad effects of forking, and maybe that decision should be reconsidered.
>
> Hopefully what will happen is that most offers will have "no_forking =
> true" on their acceptance criteria.
> Developers then will have to actually get involved with the already
> well-established OSS communities to have access to bounties.
>
> If you have more thoughts regarding (1), (2) or (3), we're listening! :-)
>
> Thanks
> Tony Lâmpada
>
> On 18 July 2012 11:09, Ron Wheeler  wrote:
>
>> The biggest danger is that projects will get funded that do not fit into
>> the strategic direction being followed by the ASF committers.
>> When the funded artifacts are turned over to the ASF team (assuming that
>> they are not doing the work) and they refuse to incorporate the changes
>> into an official release, there will be a fork in the project which will be
>> supported by the companies that paid for the enhancement.
>>
>> ASF will have to be very careful not to let egos interfere with good
>> long-term management.
>>
>> On the whole, this could be a good thing for ASF, if it is handled
>> properly.
>>
>> Ron
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 18/07/2012 9:19 AM, Tony Lâmpada wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Benson
>>>
>>> Then I think that all will be well indeed.
>>> Building that kind of relationship with ASF is very much aligned with our
>>> goals.
>>>
>>> Right now we're working on multiple fronts to improve our service and get
>>> a
>>> small scale operation going, so we can make the necessary tweaks to make
>>> the model actually work.
>>> When the time comes, I believe approaching ASF (and Codehaus, JBoss, etc)
>>> will come very naturally. And donating part of what we get just makes a
>>> lot
>>> of sense (even if we were thinking as investors).
>>>
>>> FreedomSponsors is m

Re: OT: Re: Issue-wise Crowdfunding platform for Maven

[Tony Lâmpada]

Hi Benson,

thankings for bringing that subject up.

We have been giving a lot of thought into questions like

1) What problem-scenarios might arise when a lot of people starts using
FreedomSponsors?
2) And what would be the best way to address those problems?
3) How should FreedomSponsors evolve to best serve the open source
community?

And forking is one of our concerns as well. It surely fits (1)
We believe that, generally speaking, forking is a bad thing.

Please take a look at this "Feedback issue" (which is curently an
improvement under develeopment) -->
http://www.freedomsponsors.org/core/issue/7/add-two-checkboxes-to-the-offer-form-1-no-forking-2-require-release

We want to encourage sponsors to fund the original projects - so the "No
forking" checkbox will come checked by default in the "Sponsor Issue"
screen.
If the user unchecks it, a popup window will be displayed, explaining the
bad effects of forking, and maybe that decision should be reconsidered.

Hopefully what will happen is that most offers will have "no_forking =
true" on their acceptance criteria.
Developers then will have to actually get involved with the already
well-established OSS communities to have access to bounties.

If you have more thoughts regarding (1), (2) or (3), we're listening! :-)

Thanks
Tony Lâmpada

On 18 July 2012 11:09, Ron Wheeler  wrote:

> The biggest danger is that projects will get funded that do not fit into
> the strategic direction being followed by the ASF committers.
> When the funded artifacts are turned over to the ASF team (assuming that
> they are not doing the work) and they refuse to incorporate the changes
> into an official release, there will be a fork in the project which will be
> supported by the companies that paid for the enhancement.
>
> ASF will have to be very careful not to let egos interfere with good
> long-term management.
>
> On the whole, this could be a good thing for ASF, if it is handled
> properly.
>
> Ron
>
>
>
>
> On 18/07/2012 9:19 AM, Tony Lâmpada wrote:
>
>> Hi Benson
>>
>> Then I think that all will be well indeed.
>> Building that kind of relationship with ASF is very much aligned with our
>> goals.
>>
>> Right now we're working on multiple fronts to improve our service and get
>> a
>> small scale operation going, so we can make the necessary tweaks to make
>> the model actually work.
>> When the time comes, I believe approaching ASF (and Codehaus, JBoss, etc)
>> will come very naturally. And donating part of what we get just makes a
>> lot
>> of sense (even if we were thinking as investors).
>>
>> FreedomSponsors is made by developers who love open source, and our main
>> goal is to serve the OSS community, while also being able to work on the
>> open source projects that we love ourselves!
>>
>> But those are still dreams for the future. Now is the time for us to do
>> the
>> best we can to get there.
>>
>> So... Wish us luck! :-)
>>
>> Thanks for getting involved!
>> Tony Lâmpada
>>
>> PS: Speaking of OSS, just as a side note: We are going to open source
>> FreedomSponsor's website code as well (there's some code cleanup we have
>> to
>> do first, though)
>>
>>
>> On 17 July 2012 15:41, Benson Margulies  wrote:
>>
>>  It is extremely unlikely that the Foundation will be interested in any
>>> participation except to gratefully accept any unrestricted donations
>>> your organization might happen to make. If you want to state on your
>>> website that you are going to donate something to the ASF when the
>>> issue is an ASF project JIRA, and you conform the ASF trademark and
>>> branding guidelines, I predict (speaking without wearing any official
>>> ASF hat) that all will be well.
>>>
>>> --**--**
>>> -
>>> To unsubscribe, e-mail: 
>>> users-unsubscribe@maven.**apache.org
>>> For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@maven.apache.org
>>>
>>>
>>>
>
> --
> Ron Wheeler
> President
> Artifact Software Inc
> email: rwhee...@artifact-software.com
> skype: ronaldmwheeler
> phone: 866-970-2435, ext 102
>
>
> --**--**-
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: 
> users-unsubscribe@maven.**apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@maven.apache.org
>
>

Re: OT: Re: Issue-wise Crowdfunding platform for Maven

[Ron Wheeler]

The biggest danger is that projects will get funded that do not fit into 
the strategic direction being followed by the ASF committers.
When the funded artifacts are turned over to the ASF team (assuming that 
they are not doing the work) and they refuse to incorporate the changes 
into an official release, there will be a fork in the project which will 
be supported by the companies that paid for the enhancement.


ASF will have to be very careful not to let egos interfere with good 
long-term management.


On the whole, this could be a good thing for ASF, if it is handled properly.

Ron



On 18/07/2012 9:19 AM, Tony Lâmpada wrote:

Hi Benson

Then I think that all will be well indeed.
Building that kind of relationship with ASF is very much aligned with our
goals.

Right now we're working on multiple fronts to improve our service and get a
small scale operation going, so we can make the necessary tweaks to make
the model actually work.
When the time comes, I believe approaching ASF (and Codehaus, JBoss, etc)
will come very naturally. And donating part of what we get just makes a lot
of sense (even if we were thinking as investors).

FreedomSponsors is made by developers who love open source, and our main
goal is to serve the OSS community, while also being able to work on the
open source projects that we love ourselves!

But those are still dreams for the future. Now is the time for us to do the
best we can to get there.

So... Wish us luck! :-)

Thanks for getting involved!
Tony Lâmpada

PS: Speaking of OSS, just as a side note: We are going to open source
FreedomSponsor's website code as well (there's some code cleanup we have to
do first, though)


On 17 July 2012 15:41, Benson Margulies  wrote:


It is extremely unlikely that the Foundation will be interested in any
participation except to gratefully accept any unrestricted donations
your organization might happen to make. If you want to state on your
website that you are going to donate something to the ASF when the
issue is an ASF project JIRA, and you conform the ASF trademark and
branding guidelines, I predict (speaking without wearing any official
ASF hat) that all will be well.

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--
Ron Wheeler
President
Artifact Software Inc
email: rwhee...@artifact-software.com
skype: ronaldmwheeler
phone: 866-970-2435, ext 102


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Re: OT: Re: Issue-wise Crowdfunding platform for Maven

[Tony Lâmpada]

Hi Benson

Then I think that all will be well indeed.
Building that kind of relationship with ASF is very much aligned with our
goals.

Right now we're working on multiple fronts to improve our service and get a
small scale operation going, so we can make the necessary tweaks to make
the model actually work.
When the time comes, I believe approaching ASF (and Codehaus, JBoss, etc)
will come very naturally. And donating part of what we get just makes a lot
of sense (even if we were thinking as investors).

FreedomSponsors is made by developers who love open source, and our main
goal is to serve the OSS community, while also being able to work on the
open source projects that we love ourselves!

But those are still dreams for the future. Now is the time for us to do the
best we can to get there.

So... Wish us luck! :-)

Thanks for getting involved!
Tony Lâmpada

PS: Speaking of OSS, just as a side note: We are going to open source
FreedomSponsor's website code as well (there's some code cleanup we have to
do first, though)


On 17 July 2012 15:41, Benson Margulies  wrote:

> It is extremely unlikely that the Foundation will be interested in any
> participation except to gratefully accept any unrestricted donations
> your organization might happen to make. If you want to state on your
> website that you are going to donate something to the ASF when the
> issue is an ASF project JIRA, and you conform the ASF trademark and
> branding guidelines, I predict (speaking without wearing any official
> ASF hat) that all will be well.
>
> -
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@maven.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@maven.apache.org
>
>

Re: OT: Re: Issue-wise Crowdfunding platform for Maven

[Benson Margulies]

It is extremely unlikely that the Foundation will be interested in any
participation except to gratefully accept any unrestricted donations
your organization might happen to make. If you want to state on your
website that you are going to donate something to the ASF when the
issue is an ASF project JIRA, and you conform the ASF trademark and
branding guidelines, I predict (speaking without wearing any official
ASF hat) that all will be well.

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Re: Issue-wise Crowdfunding platform for Maven

[Tony Lâmpada]

Yup, we should make it more visible. Got it :-)
Thanks

On 15 July 2012 04:48, Markus KARG  wrote:

> Just found it... It's a bit small and hidden due to the black colour.
>
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Markus KARG [mailto:mar...@headcrashing.eu]
> > Sent: Sonntag, 15. Juli 2012 09:17
> > To: 'Maven Users List'; d...@maven.apache.org
> > Subject: RE: Issue-wise Crowdfunding platform for Maven
> >
> > Would be good if each funding item would contain a link to the
> > particular item in the project's tracker, so it is easier to learn
> > about the issue's details.
> >
> > > -Original Message-
> > > From: tony Tony [mailto:t...@freedomsponsors.com]
> > > Sent: Freitag, 13. Juli 2012 22:38
> > > To: users@maven.apache.org; d...@maven.apache.org
> > > Subject: Issue-wise Crowdfunding platform for Maven
> > >
> > > Hi all,
> > >
> > > I have set up a website where people can place small money bounties
> > > for open issues on Maven JIRA <http://jira.codehaus.org/browse/MNG>
> > > (or Jenkins, or Hibernate, or whatever).
> > >
> > > So far it's only got two real offers - and one of them I placed
> > myself
> > > (JENKINS-9216:
> > > Make OpenID work with Google Apps
> > > accounts<http://www.freedomsponsors.com/core/issue/11/make-openid-
> > work
> > > -
> > > with-google-apps-accounts>
> > > ),
> > > but I really think that as it gets more popular, such a tool can have
> > > a big positive impact on a lot of open source projects, especially
> > > popular ones like Maven.
> > > If you think so too, I welcome you to use it -->
> > > www.freedomsponsors.com :-)
> > >
> > > Cheers
> > > Tony Lâmpada
> >
> >
> > -
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@maven.apache.org
> > For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@maven.apache.org
>
>
>
> -
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@maven.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@maven.apache.org
>
>

RE: Issue-wise Crowdfunding platform for Maven

[Markus KARG]

Just found it... It's a bit small and hidden due to the black colour.

> -Original Message-
> From: Markus KARG [mailto:mar...@headcrashing.eu]
> Sent: Sonntag, 15. Juli 2012 09:17
> To: 'Maven Users List'; d...@maven.apache.org
> Subject: RE: Issue-wise Crowdfunding platform for Maven
> 
> Would be good if each funding item would contain a link to the
> particular item in the project's tracker, so it is easier to learn
> about the issue's details.
> 
> > -Original Message-
> > From: tony Tony [mailto:t...@freedomsponsors.com]
> > Sent: Freitag, 13. Juli 2012 22:38
> > To: users@maven.apache.org; d...@maven.apache.org
> > Subject: Issue-wise Crowdfunding platform for Maven
> >
> > Hi all,
> >
> > I have set up a website where people can place small money bounties
> > for open issues on Maven JIRA <http://jira.codehaus.org/browse/MNG>
> > (or Jenkins, or Hibernate, or whatever).
> >
> > So far it's only got two real offers - and one of them I placed
> myself
> > (JENKINS-9216:
> > Make OpenID work with Google Apps
> > accounts<http://www.freedomsponsors.com/core/issue/11/make-openid-
> work
> > -
> > with-google-apps-accounts>
> > ),
> > but I really think that as it gets more popular, such a tool can have
> > a big positive impact on a lot of open source projects, especially
> > popular ones like Maven.
> > If you think so too, I welcome you to use it -->
> > www.freedomsponsors.com :-)
> >
> > Cheers
> > Tony Lâmpada
> 
> 
> -
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@maven.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@maven.apache.org



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RE: Issue-wise Crowdfunding platform for Maven

[Markus KARG]

Would be good if each funding item would contain a link to the particular
item in the project's tracker, so it is easier to learn about the issue's
details.

> -Original Message-
> From: tony Tony [mailto:t...@freedomsponsors.com]
> Sent: Freitag, 13. Juli 2012 22:38
> To: users@maven.apache.org; d...@maven.apache.org
> Subject: Issue-wise Crowdfunding platform for Maven
> 
> Hi all,
> 
> I have set up a website where people can place small money bounties for
> open issues on Maven JIRA  (or
> Jenkins, or Hibernate, or whatever).
> 
> So far it's only got two real offers - and one of them I placed myself
> (JENKINS-9216:
> Make OpenID work with Google Apps
> accounts with-google-apps-accounts>
> ),
> but I really think that as it gets more popular, such a tool can have a
> big positive impact on a lot of open source projects, especially
> popular ones like Maven.
> If you think so too, I welcome you to use it -->
> www.freedomsponsors.com :-)
> 
> Cheers
> Tony Lâmpada


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Re: OT: Re: Issue-wise Crowdfunding platform for Maven

[Ron Wheeler]

Crowdfunding is the way of the future and will accelerate the growth of 
open source and proprietary software.
Apache will have to come to grips with it since it is a way for 
companies to ensure that their priorities get to the top of the pile if 
they are only interested in providing money.
It will erode the power of the PMC since private groups will be able to 
fund specific enhancements that have value to an audience rather than 
features that appeal to the developers.


If the management of the Apache project leads the effort, it should be 
able to collect something but if someone else is doing the job, it is 
not clear where Apache fits in.


This means that the PMC will have to get a structure in place to focus 
user financial contributions onto worthwhile projects and guarantee that 
specific functionality gets incorporated into the project.


This will not replace the current collection of funds that are not 
dedicated or contingent on a specific result but will provide additional 
funding for specific features.



Ron

On 13/07/2012 5:16 PM, Brian Topping wrote:

Tony,

I hate to rain on your parade because it's a very good idea, but isn't this 
something that the Apache Foundation should also be collecting at least as much 
as you are collecting (3%) for the service?

To keep things honest and since 3% is barely more than Paypal charges to intermediate the 
funds in the first place, I'd alternately suggest a Jira plugin project that Apache could 
use to manage this through Apache Jira itself.  Because Apache is a large non-profit, it 
may be able to negotiate better terms with services like Paypal such that more of the 
money stays "in the family".

While this may not sound as glorious as running this yourself, as eventual 
founder and PMC of the project, you'll still get all the recognition for 
changing the world of OSS for the better and will never have to worry about 
someone else getting a lead on your idea (nobody will be able to give more to 
developers than a non-profit with 0% holdback will).

$0.02...

On Jul 13, 2012, at 11:38 PM, tony Tony wrote:


Hi all,

I have set up a website where people can place small money bounties for
open issues on Maven JIRA  (or
Jenkins, or Hibernate, or whatever).

So far it's only got two real offers - and one of them I placed myself
(JENKINS-9216:
Make OpenID work with Google Apps
accounts
),
but I really think that as it gets more popular, such a tool can have a big
positive impact on a lot of open source projects, especially popular ones
like Maven.
If you think so too, I welcome you to use it --> www.freedomsponsors.com :-)

Cheers
Tony Lâmpada


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--
Ron Wheeler
President
Artifact Software Inc
email: rwhee...@artifact-software.com
skype: ronaldmwheeler
phone: 866-970-2435, ext 102


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Re: OT: Re: Issue-wise Crowdfunding platform for Maven

[Tony Lâmpada]

Hi Brian,

Actually this is exactly where we are aimed to. Since we do want to see
open source projects growing from our initiative it just makes sense to get
open-source communities (such as Apache) involved. Right now we're focused
on getting the platform up and running so we can put together enough
material for engaging into conversation.

Thanks for getting involved!

Cheers,

On 13 July 2012 18:16, Brian Topping  wrote:

> Tony,
>
> I hate to rain on your parade because it's a very good idea, but isn't
> this something that the Apache Foundation should also be collecting at
> least as much as you are collecting (3%) for the service?
>
> To keep things honest and since 3% is barely more than Paypal charges to
> intermediate the funds in the first place, I'd alternately suggest a Jira
> plugin project that Apache could use to manage this through Apache Jira
> itself.  Because Apache is a large non-profit, it may be able to negotiate
> better terms with services like Paypal such that more of the money stays
> "in the family".
>
> While this may not sound as glorious as running this yourself, as eventual
> founder and PMC of the project, you'll still get all the recognition for
> changing the world of OSS for the better and will never have to worry about
> someone else getting a lead on your idea (nobody will be able to give more
> to developers than a non-profit with 0% holdback will).
>
> $0.02...
>
> On Jul 13, 2012, at 11:38 PM, tony Tony wrote:
>
> > Hi all,
> >
> > I have set up a website where people can place small money bounties for
> > open issues on Maven JIRA  (or
> > Jenkins, or Hibernate, or whatever).
> >
> > So far it's only got two real offers - and one of them I placed myself
> > (JENKINS-9216:
> > Make OpenID work with Google Apps
> > accounts<
> http://www.freedomsponsors.com/core/issue/11/make-openid-work-with-google-apps-accounts
> >
> > ),
> > but I really think that as it gets more popular, such a tool can have a
> big
> > positive impact on a lot of open source projects, especially popular ones
> > like Maven.
> > If you think so too, I welcome you to use it --> www.freedomsponsors.com:-)
> >
> > Cheers
> > Tony Lâmpada
>
>
> -
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: users-unsubscr...@maven.apache.org
> For additional commands, e-mail: users-h...@maven.apache.org
>
>

OT: Re: Issue-wise Crowdfunding platform for Maven

[Brian Topping]

Tony, 

I hate to rain on your parade because it's a very good idea, but isn't this 
something that the Apache Foundation should also be collecting at least as much 
as you are collecting (3%) for the service?  

To keep things honest and since 3% is barely more than Paypal charges to 
intermediate the funds in the first place, I'd alternately suggest a Jira 
plugin project that Apache could use to manage this through Apache Jira itself. 
 Because Apache is a large non-profit, it may be able to negotiate better terms 
with services like Paypal such that more of the money stays "in the family".

While this may not sound as glorious as running this yourself, as eventual 
founder and PMC of the project, you'll still get all the recognition for 
changing the world of OSS for the better and will never have to worry about 
someone else getting a lead on your idea (nobody will be able to give more to 
developers than a non-profit with 0% holdback will).

$0.02...

On Jul 13, 2012, at 11:38 PM, tony Tony wrote:

> Hi all,
> 
> I have set up a website where people can place small money bounties for
> open issues on Maven JIRA  (or
> Jenkins, or Hibernate, or whatever).
> 
> So far it's only got two real offers - and one of them I placed myself
> (JENKINS-9216:
> Make OpenID work with Google Apps
> accounts
> ),
> but I really think that as it gets more popular, such a tool can have a big
> positive impact on a lot of open source projects, especially popular ones
> like Maven.
> If you think so too, I welcome you to use it --> www.freedomsponsors.com :-)
> 
> Cheers
> Tony Lâmpada


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