[VIHUELA] Re: Ambiguity
I was speaking only of French practice, but you may be right - I'll look at Ning The French books which I have facsimiles are: Merchi 1761 - stringing in staff notation seems to show doubled basses - both low octaves. BUT in discussing pitching to accompany the voice he says (I think? - better translation required plse) put the small La at the most favourable pitch - implying an octave on at least the 5th - but nothing about the high octave being in or out. Bailleux 1773 - I think the implication here is that the bass of the 4th and 5th octave pair is outside but on reading it again I see he's not actually quite so specific. Baillon 1781 - stringing explained in the 'Avertissement'. - octaves on 4th and 5th but now I look at this again he doesn't (I think) say whether the high octaves are out or in. My schoolboy French is not up to being certain of getting what he does say 100% correct - has anyone a trans with which they are confident?) Lemoine 1795 - seems to be for single strung 5 course Sparks says Corrette 1763 shows the high octave on the 4th and 5th on the outside - but I don't have a copy (is this the diagram perhaps?). Also other schools certainly seemed to have continued with the thumb striking the high octave first up to the end of the century (not the reverse as Sparks says - I think maybe the common confusion of what is meant by 'the first') Ferandiere's 6 course guitar has octave basses with the highest outwards. ('The first two bourdons are called sextos, with the different(ce) that the first is called sextillo, through being thinner than the other, and it must be an octave higher; but both are called E.' trans Brian Jeffery). Mandoras (and gallichons if double) had the high octave on the inside (like a lute in fact sometimes actually called 'demi-luth') Martyn . --- On Mon, 7/2/11, Stuart Walsh wrote: From: Stuart Walsh Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Ambiguity To: "Martyn Hodgson" Cc: "Monica Hall" , "Vihuelalist" Date: Monday, 7 February, 2011, 11:03 On 07/02/2011 08:50, Martyn Hodgson wrote: > Isn't Corrette's guitar disposed like other second half 18th century > French guitars? ie basses on the thumb side like a lute. And the style > is now much simpler and with arppegios and the like > . M There's a late 18th century diagram of a guitar fingerboard with the the basses clearly not on the thumb side - and it's somewhere on the early guitar ning site. Stuart > --- On Sun, 6/2/11, Monica Hall<[1]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> wrote: > > From: Monica Hall<[2]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> > Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Ambiguity > To: "Martyn Hodgson"<[3]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk> > Cc: "Vihuelalist"<[4]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu> > Date: Sunday, 6 February, 2011, 16:41 > > >Incidentally, earlier in this discussion I asked if there was any > early > >source which mentioned selective plucking of individual strings of > an > >octave pair - no response so far. > No - the only source which mentions it is Corrette in -can't remember > the > exact date - 1760 or there abouts. I think the fact that Sanz doesn't > mention this as an option is of some significance. His solution is to > change the stringing. > Incidentally when practicing Bartolotti's Ciaccona from Book 1 this > morning > I noted that there are three trills on the 4th course and one on the > 5th but > obviously because of the left-hand fingering there are fewer > opportunities > to fit in ornamentation. > Monica > > From: Stewart McCoy<[1][5]lu...@tiscali.co.uk> > > Subject: [VIHUELA] Invertible counterpoint > > To: "Vihuela List"<[2][6]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu> > > Date: Sunday, 6 February, 2011, 12:47 > > > >Dear Martyn, > >Thanks for your message. I agree with what you say about the effect > of > >reverse stringing, that it causes the upper octave to be more in > >evidence than it would be with a more conventional (i.e. lute) > >stringing. Yet why should a guitarist have wanted the high octave > to > >predominate? It must be that he wanted to hear the high octave as a > >note > >in its
[VIHUELA] Re: Ambiguity
On 07/02/2011 08:50, Martyn Hodgson wrote: Isn't Corrette's guitar disposed like other second half 18th century French guitars? ie basses on the thumb side like a lute. And the style is now much simpler and with arppegios and the like . M There's a late 18th century diagram of a guitar fingerboard with the the basses clearly not on the thumb side - and it's somewhere on the early guitar ning site. Stuart --- On Sun, 6/2/11, Monica Hall wrote: From: Monica Hall Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Ambiguity To: "Martyn Hodgson" Cc: "Vihuelalist" Date: Sunday, 6 February, 2011, 16:41 >Incidentally, earlier in this discussion I asked if there was any early >source which mentioned selective plucking of individual strings of an >octave pair - no response so far. No - the only source which mentions it is Corrette in -can't remember the exact date - 1760 or there abouts. I think the fact that Sanz doesn't mention this as an option is of some significance. His solution is to change the stringing. Incidentally when practicing Bartolotti's Ciaccona from Book 1 this morning I noted that there are three trills on the 4th course and one on the 5th but obviously because of the left-hand fingering there are fewer opportunities to fit in ornamentation. Monica > From: Stewart McCoy<[1]lu...@tiscali.co.uk> > Subject: [VIHUELA] Invertible counterpoint > To: "Vihuela List"<[2]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu> > Date: Sunday, 6 February, 2011, 12:47 > >Dear Martyn, >Thanks for your message. I agree with what you say about the effect of >reverse stringing, that it causes the upper octave to be more in >evidence than it would be with a more conventional (i.e. lute) >stringing. Yet why should a guitarist have wanted the high octave to >predominate? It must be that he wanted to hear the high octave as a >note >in its own right - a melody note - rather than merely enhance a bass >note on a duff gut string. >There are instances in lute music, where the upper octave of a course >is >used melodically. My favourite example is the opening of Haray tre >amours from Spinacino (Bk 2, 15v) which is notated as >--|- >--|--2-- >--|- >--2--4--5--4--5--4--2--4--|- >--|- >--|- >but sounds as >--|- >--|--2-- >--|- >--2--4--5--4--5--4--2--4--|- >--|--0-- >--|- >The high octave of the 5th course acts as a bass and a treble at the >same time. >Seventeenth-century guitarists wanted to exploit this possibility, but >unfortunately there were times when they wanted notes to be heard only >at one octave. Either they wanted just the low octave for a bass note, >and had to put up with the high octave interfering with the treble line >(as described recently by Monica), or they wanted just the high octave, >and had to tolerate unwanted bourdons creeping in below. >The various ways of stringing the baroque guitar are attempts to >overcome this basic dilemma. It seems that composers writing serious >pieces for the guitar wanted to exploit the melodic possibilities of >the >upper octave notes, but felt hampered by the bourdons. Reverse >stringing, having no bourdon at the fifth, or at the fourth and fifth >courses, are all attempts to purify the sound. As Monica says, quoting >Sanz, removing the bourdons will sweeten the sound. We cannot tell from >Sanz whether or not it was a new idea, but it certainly implies that at >least some guitarists were using bourdons in the 1670s. >Unfortunately we have little evidence to know what each guitarist did. >I >am grateful to Monica for writing: >"The only reference to reverse stringing is in Ruiz de Ribayaz in 1677 >.. the earliest mention of the "French" tuning is in 1670 ..." >Is that really all we have to go on? Is there nothing written about >stringing before 1670? If that is the case, no wonder there is so much >controv
[VIHUELA] Re: Ambiguity
Isn't Corrette's guitar disposed like other second half 18th century French guitars? ie basses on the thumb side like a lute. And the style is now much simpler and with arppegios and the like . M --- On Sun, 6/2/11, Monica Hall wrote: From: Monica Hall Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Ambiguity To: "Martyn Hodgson" Cc: "Vihuelalist" Date: Sunday, 6 February, 2011, 16:41 > Incidentally, earlier in this discussion I asked if there was any early > source which mentioned selective plucking of individual strings of an > octave pair - no response so far. No - the only source which mentions it is Corrette in -can't remember the exact date - 1760 or there abouts. I think the fact that Sanz doesn't mention this as an option is of some significance. His solution is to change the stringing. Incidentally when practicing Bartolotti's Ciaccona from Book 1 this morning I noted that there are three trills on the 4th course and one on the 5th but obviously because of the left-hand fingering there are fewer opportunities to fit in ornamentation. Monica > From: Stewart McCoy <[1]lu...@tiscali.co.uk> > Subject: [VIHUELA] Invertible counterpoint > To: "Vihuela List" <[2]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu> > Date: Sunday, 6 February, 2011, 12:47 > > Dear Martyn, > Thanks for your message. I agree with what you say about the effect of > reverse stringing, that it causes the upper octave to be more in > evidence than it would be with a more conventional (i.e. lute) > stringing. Yet why should a guitarist have wanted the high octave to > predominate? It must be that he wanted to hear the high octave as a > note > in its own right - a melody note - rather than merely enhance a bass > note on a duff gut string. > There are instances in lute music, where the upper octave of a course > is > used melodically. My favourite example is the opening of Haray tre > amours from Spinacino (Bk 2, 15v) which is notated as > --|- > --|--2-- > --|- > --2--4--5--4--5--4--2--4--|- > --|- > --|- > but sounds as > --|- > --|--2-- > --|- > --2--4--5--4--5--4--2--4--|- > --|--0-- > --|- > The high octave of the 5th course acts as a bass and a treble at the > same time. > Seventeenth-century guitarists wanted to exploit this possibility, but > unfortunately there were times when they wanted notes to be heard only > at one octave. Either they wanted just the low octave for a bass note, > and had to put up with the high octave interfering with the treble line > (as described recently by Monica), or they wanted just the high octave, > and had to tolerate unwanted bourdons creeping in below. > The various ways of stringing the baroque guitar are attempts to > overcome this basic dilemma. It seems that composers writing serious > pieces for the guitar wanted to exploit the melodic possibilities of > the > upper octave notes, but felt hampered by the bourdons. Reverse > stringing, having no bourdon at the fifth, or at the fourth and fifth > courses, are all attempts to purify the sound. As Monica says, quoting > Sanz, removing the bourdons will sweeten the sound. We cannot tell from > Sanz whether or not it was a new idea, but it certainly implies that at > least some guitarists were using bourdons in the 1670s. > Unfortunately we have little evidence to know what each guitarist did. > I > am grateful to Monica for writing: > "The only reference to reverse stringing is in Ruiz de Ribayaz in 1677 > .. the earliest mention of the "French" tuning is in 1670 ..." > Is that really all we have to go on? Is there nothing written about > stringing before 1670? If that is the case, no wonder there is so much > controversy. Without evidence, we are forced to rely on our intuition, > and to try to glean what we can from the music itself (hence my > question > about trills notated at the 4th and 5th courses, and my mention of high > notes on the 4th and 5th courses in Sanz' Pavanas). > Sometimes the answer is obvious. For example, in his recording of
[VIHUELA] Re: Ambiguity
Excellent work by both of you. Monica - Original Message - From: [1]Peter Kooiman To: [2]Chris Despopoulos Cc: [3]Vihuelalist ; [4]Monica Hall ; [5]Martyn Hodgson Sent: Sunday, February 06, 2011 5:37 PM Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Re: Ambiguity > Not surprisingly, Sanz indicates trills or mordents for the two > lower courses in the first two books: Also, in his "Regla quarta del trino" Sanz offers this advice: "I want to give a famous rule so that you know where a trill sounds good, and you can always do it even though it is not written down. In the first place, the open first, and second courses, trill them if you have a free finger, even though the trill is not written down. Also the fourth and fifth courses on the second fret, and all fourth frets. The reason is, because they are flats, or sharps, and in music this name corresponds to the trill" Peter -- References 1. mailto:pe...@crispu.com 2. mailto:despopoulos_chr...@yahoo.com 3. mailto:vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu 4. mailto:mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk 5. mailto:hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Ambiguity
> Not surprisingly, Sanz indicates trills or mordents for the two > lower courses in the first two books: Also, in his "Regla quarta del trino" Sanz offers this advice: "I want to give a famous rule so that you know where a trill sounds good, and you can always do it even though it is not written down. In the first place, the open first, and second courses, trill them if you have a free finger, even though the trill is not written down. Also the fourth and fifth courses on the second fret, and all fourth frets. The reason is, because they are flats, or sharps, and in music this name corresponds to the trill" Peter -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[VIHUELA] Re: Ambiguity
Not surprisingly, Sanz indicates trills or mordents for the two lower courses in the first two books: * Marionas in two separate pieces * El que gustare de falsas ponga cuidado en estos cromaticos * Gallardas * Espanoletas #3 * Pasacalles por la O * Clarines y Trompetas __ From: Monica Hall To: Martyn Hodgson Cc: Vihuelalist Sent: Sun, February 6, 2011 11:41:41 AM Subject: [VIHUELA] Re: Ambiguity > Incidentally, earlier in this discussion I asked if there was any early > source which mentioned selective plucking of individual strings of an > octave pair - no response so far. No - the only source which mentions it is Corrette in -can't remember the exact date - 1760 or there abouts. I think the fact that Sanz doesn't mention this as an option is of some significance. His solution is to change the stringing. Incidentally when practicing Bartolotti's Ciaccona from Book 1 this morning I noted that there are three trills on the 4th course and one on the 5th but obviously because of the left-hand fingering there are fewer opportunities to fit in ornamentation. Monica >From: Stewart McCoy <[1]lu...@tiscali.co.uk> >Subject: [VIHUELA] Invertible counterpoint >To: "Vihuela List" <[2]vihuela@cs.dartmouth.edu> >Date: Sunday, 6 February, 2011, 12:47 > > Dear Martyn, > Thanks for your message. I agree with what you say about the effect of > reverse stringing, that it causes the upper octave to be more in > evidence than it would be with a more conventional (i.e. lute) > stringing. Yet why should a guitarist have wanted the high octave to > predominate? It must be that he wanted to hear the high octave as a > note > in its own right - a melody note - rather than merely enhance a bass > note on a duff gut string. > There are instances in lute music, where the upper octave of a course > is > used melodically. My favourite example is the opening of Haray tre > amours from Spinacino (Bk 2, 15v) which is notated as > --|- > --|--2-- > --|- > --2--4--5--4--5--4--2--4--|- > --|- > --|- > but sounds as > --|- > --|--2-- > --|- > --2--4--5--4--5--4--2--4--|- > --|--0-- > --|- > The high octave of the 5th course acts as a bass and a treble at the > same time. > Seventeenth-century guitarists wanted to exploit this possibility, but > unfortunately there were times when they wanted notes to be heard only > at one octave. Either they wanted just the low octave for a bass note, > and had to put up with the high octave interfering with the treble line > (as described recently by Monica), or they wanted just the high octave, > and had to tolerate unwanted bourdons creeping in below. > The various ways of stringing the baroque guitar are attempts to > overcome this basic dilemma. It seems that composers writing serious > pieces for the guitar wanted to exploit the melodic possibilities of > the > upper octave notes, but felt hampered by the bourdons. Reverse > stringing, having no bourdon at the fifth, or at the fourth and fifth > courses, are all attempts to purify the sound. As Monica says, quoting > Sanz, removing the bourdons will sweeten the sound. We cannot tell from > Sanz whether or not it was a new idea, but it certainly implies that at > least some guitarists were using bourdons in the 1670s. > Unfortunately we have little evidence to know what each guitarist did. > I > am grateful to Monica for writing: > "The only reference to reverse stringing is in Ruiz de Ribayaz in 1677 > .. the earliest mention of the "French" tuning is in 1670 ..." > Is that really all we have to go on? Is there nothing written about > stringing before 1670? If that is the case, no wonder there is so much > controversy. Without evidence, we are forced to rely on our intuition, > and to try to glean what we can from the music itself (hence my > question > about trills notated at the 4th and 5th courses, and my mention of high > notes on the 4th and 5th courses in Sanz' Pavanas). > Sometimes the answer is obvious. For example, in his recording of
[VIHUELA] Re: Ambiguity
Incidentally, earlier in this discussion I asked if there was any early source which mentioned selective plucking of individual strings of an octave pair - no response so far. No - the only source which mentions it is Corrette in -can't remember the exact date - 1760 or there abouts. I think the fact that Sanz doesn't mention this as an option is of some significance. His solution is to change the stringing. Incidentally when practicing Bartolotti's Ciaccona from Book 1 this morning I noted that there are three trills on the 4th course and one on the 5th but obviously because of the left-hand fingering there are fewer opportunities to fit in ornamentation. Monica From: Stewart McCoy Subject: [VIHUELA] Invertible counterpoint To: "Vihuela List" Date: Sunday, 6 February, 2011, 12:47 Dear Martyn, Thanks for your message. I agree with what you say about the effect of reverse stringing, that it causes the upper octave to be more in evidence than it would be with a more conventional (i.e. lute) stringing. Yet why should a guitarist have wanted the high octave to predominate? It must be that he wanted to hear the high octave as a note in its own right - a melody note - rather than merely enhance a bass note on a duff gut string. There are instances in lute music, where the upper octave of a course is used melodically. My favourite example is the opening of Haray tre amours from Spinacino (Bk 2, 15v) which is notated as --|- --|--2-- --|- --2--4--5--4--5--4--2--4--|- --|- --|- but sounds as --|- --|--2-- --|- --2--4--5--4--5--4--2--4--|- --|--0-- --|- The high octave of the 5th course acts as a bass and a treble at the same time. Seventeenth-century guitarists wanted to exploit this possibility, but unfortunately there were times when they wanted notes to be heard only at one octave. Either they wanted just the low octave for a bass note, and had to put up with the high octave interfering with the treble line (as described recently by Monica), or they wanted just the high octave, and had to tolerate unwanted bourdons creeping in below. The various ways of stringing the baroque guitar are attempts to overcome this basic dilemma. It seems that composers writing serious pieces for the guitar wanted to exploit the melodic possibilities of the upper octave notes, but felt hampered by the bourdons. Reverse stringing, having no bourdon at the fifth, or at the fourth and fifth courses, are all attempts to purify the sound. As Monica says, quoting Sanz, removing the bourdons will sweeten the sound. We cannot tell from Sanz whether or not it was a new idea, but it certainly implies that at least some guitarists were using bourdons in the 1670s. Unfortunately we have little evidence to know what each guitarist did. I am grateful to Monica for writing: "The only reference to reverse stringing is in Ruiz de Ribayaz in 1677 .. the earliest mention of the "French" tuning is in 1670 ..." Is that really all we have to go on? Is there nothing written about stringing before 1670? If that is the case, no wonder there is so much controversy. Without evidence, we are forced to rely on our intuition, and to try to glean what we can from the music itself (hence my question about trills notated at the 4th and 5th courses, and my mention of high notes on the 4th and 5th courses in Sanz' Pavanas). Sometimes the answer is obvious. For example, in his recording of music by Franc,ois Campion (Arion ARN68483) Michel Amoricis unfortunately has a bourdon at the fifth course, which wreaks havoc with the campanellas. Other times it is less clear what we should do. By coming to different conclusions, we may be duplicating what actually happened in the 17th century, when guitarists will have had their own preferences, depending on what music they were playing. Best wishes, Stewart. -Original Message- From: Martyn Hodgson [mailto:[1]hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk] Sent: 06 February 2011 08:55 To: Vihuela List; Stewart McCoy Subject: Re: [VIHUELA] Invertible counterpoint Dear Stewart, I agree with some of what you say (in particular perhaps Sanz was expressing a desire for the most 'modern' style even if still composing some pieces with bourdons) but I think you overlook an obvious possibility when you write 'Why should the lower string of an octave pair on the baroque guitar be placed on the treble side? This is the other way round from the lute, and seems counter-intuitive. There must be a difference in sound, or guitarists would not have strung their guitars that way. The