Re: [Vo]:Re: Color Temperature
It could be that the nature of the light is very unusual as produced by the reactor. If only infrared photons were monochromatically emitted (like a laser) that all corresponded to the exact temperature of 1400C. and no other photon energy wavelengths was produced, then the light would not be blackbody radiation. The testers should have taken a spectrum to see what wavelengths of light comprised the light that came from the reactor, This spectrum would be proof that the reactor operates under a boson condensate. This fits with the theory that the boson condensate would have kept all photon energy equal and isothermal. On Tue, Oct 21, 2014 at 1:32 AM, H Veeder hveeder...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Oct 20, 2014 at 9:28 AM, Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net wrote: From: H Veeder Ø Other examples of light emitting bodies which* do not* follow the incandescent temperature rule are phosphorescent and fluorescent bodies. Yup. And as far back as 1886 it was noticed that alumina, in one form, was phosphorescent. A paper by Crookes (the one of radiometer fame): On the Crimson Line of Phosphorescent Alumina. 1886. Today with the benefit of 130 years we realize that the alumina tested back then had slight chromium content – think ruby - and today the message is that an aluminum paste– such as applied to Inconel wires embedded in a alumina tube housing – containing trace chromium - can provide overwhelming phosphorescent red coloration… and thus the tube is not in keeping with an incandescent temperature determination. In short –this Levi report is miles away from being a scientific paper. The details of fabrication of the tube are hidden, and the reddish glow does not necessarily mean lower temperature if there is ruby p hosphorescence in a paste or coating. If the surface temperature is 1400C then according to the textbooks, as Jed says, the surface should be glowing white. Other things could be happening too, but they don't alter the standard expectation. Either this incongruity is caused by a measurement error or something entirely new is happening. I've proposed other types of emissions but they don't address the issue of the missing white light. harry
Re: [Vo]:Re: Color Temperature
I consider that the camera may actually be a control device that is calibrated to monitor a certain wave length of emitted radiation associated with the LENR reaction and serves to adjust the activity of the mouse--maybe the current in the electrical wires or their magnetic field strength--to control the rate of the reaction with a rapid feed back signal. The designers and the testers probably know the answer to this question, but do not want to answer, since it is not necessary to confirm excess heat production, the apparent objective of the test. (The thermocouple may not be a primary control device because of its relatively slow responds compared to the radiation emitted by the LENR. Axil's suggestions and conjectures seem to be consistent with my conjecture above about monitoring selected radiation. In MHO the alumina does not act as a black body. The assumption that the color seen by the camera corresponds to temperature of something, for example, the inside of the vessel , is not correct. The internal thermocouple would be a better indicator of reaction temperatures, assuming there is good convection within the inside of the alumina vessel. Bob - Original Message - From: Axil Axil To: vortex-l Sent: Monday, October 20, 2014 11:25 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Re: Color Temperature It could be that the nature of the light is very unusual as produced by the reactor. If only infrared photons were monochromatically emitted (like a laser) that all corresponded to the exact temperature of 1400C. and no other photon energy wavelengths was produced, then the light would not be blackbody radiation. The testers should have taken a spectrum to see what wavelengths of light comprised the light that came from the reactor, This spectrum would be proof that the reactor operates under a boson condensate. This fits with the theory that the boson condensate would have kept all photon energy equal and isothermal. On Tue, Oct 21, 2014 at 1:32 AM, H Veeder hveeder...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Oct 20, 2014 at 9:28 AM, Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net wrote: From: H Veeder Ø Other examples of light emitting bodies which do not follow the incandescent temperature rule are phosphorescent and fluorescent bodies. Yup. And as far back as 1886 it was noticed that alumina, in one form, was phosphorescent. A paper by Crookes (the one of radiometer fame): On the Crimson Line of Phosphorescent Alumina. 1886. Today with the benefit of 130 years we realize that the alumina tested back then had slight chromium content – think ruby - and today the message is that an aluminum paste– such as applied to Inconel wires embedded in a alumina tube housing – containing trace chromium - can provide overwhelming phosphorescent red coloration… and thus the tube is not in keeping with an incandescent temperature determination. In short –this Levi report is miles away from being a scientific paper. The details of fabrication of the tube are hidden, and the reddish glow does not necessarily mean lower temperature if there is ruby phosphorescence in a paste or coating. If the surface temperature is 1400C then according to the textbooks, as Jed says, the surface should be glowing white. Other things could be happening too, but they don't alter the standard expectation. Either this incongruity is caused by a measurement error or something entirely new is happening. I've proposed other types of emissions but they don't address the issue of the missing white light. harry
Re: [Vo]:Re: Color Temperature
Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com wrote: It could be that the nature of the light is very unusual as produced by the reactor. If only infrared photons were monochromatically emitted (like a laser) that all corresponded to the exact temperature of 1400C. and no other photon energy wavelengths was produced, then the light would not be blackbody radiation. This monochromatic light would strike the alumina from the inside, heat it up, and then it would glow with white incandescence. There may be something very unusual about the cold fusion reaction inside (assuming there is one), but outside this is ordinary alumina material which does not have any ability to act like a laser. The authors have not responded to questions about issue. There may be a prosaic explanation. Perhaps that photo was taken before the cell heated up much. Let us wait to see what they say. I see no point to speculating about this. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Re: Color Temperature
This behavior of alumina that you are rendering could be just another assumption. There needs to be many cross checks and calibrations to find out what assumptions are reliable and which observations are not reliable. There seems to be many weird things that are going on inside the reactor like the melting mystery. It is important to determine where the invalid assumptions are. On Tue, Oct 21, 2014 at 2:00 PM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote: Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com wrote: It could be that the nature of the light is very unusual as produced by the reactor. If only infrared photons were monochromatically emitted (like a laser) that all corresponded to the exact temperature of 1400C. and no other photon energy wavelengths was produced, then the light would not be blackbody radiation. This monochromatic light would strike the alumina from the inside, heat it up, and then it would glow with white incandescence. There may be something very unusual about the cold fusion reaction inside (assuming there is one), but outside this is ordinary alumina material which does not have any ability to act like a laser. The authors have not responded to questions about issue. There may be a prosaic explanation. Perhaps that photo was taken before the cell heated up much. Let us wait to see what they say. I see no point to speculating about this. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Re: Color Temperature
On surface the report contains as many imperfections as the alumina tube. ;-) harry On Tue, Oct 21, 2014 at 2:00 PM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote: Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com wrote: It could be that the nature of the light is very unusual as produced by the reactor. If only infrared photons were monochromatically emitted (like a laser) that all corresponded to the exact temperature of 1400C. and no other photon energy wavelengths was produced, then the light would not be blackbody radiation. This monochromatic light would strike the alumina from the inside, heat it up, and then it would glow with white incandescence. There may be something very unusual about the cold fusion reaction inside (assuming there is one), but outside this is ordinary alumina material which does not have any ability to act like a laser. The authors have not responded to questions about issue. There may be a prosaic explanation. Perhaps that photo was taken before the cell heated up much. Let us wait to see what they say. I see no point to speculating about this. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Re: Color Temperature
A lack of caftsmanship is not necessarily antithetical to greatness. e.g. The first transistor was crudely assembled. http://cnx.org/resources/9120e4bccd37da6ab1c4ff90e8c498cc/firsttransistor.gif Harry On Tue, Oct 21, 2014 at 2:15 PM, H Veeder hveeder...@gmail.com wrote: On surface the report contains as many imperfections as the alumina tube. ;-) harry On Tue, Oct 21, 2014 at 2:00 PM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote: Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com wrote: It could be that the nature of the light is very unusual as produced by the reactor. If only infrared photons were monochromatically emitted (like a laser) that all corresponded to the exact temperature of 1400C. and no other photon energy wavelengths was produced, then the light would not be blackbody radiation. This monochromatic light would strike the alumina from the inside, heat it up, and then it would glow with white incandescence. There may be something very unusual about the cold fusion reaction inside (assuming there is one), but outside this is ordinary alumina material which does not have any ability to act like a laser. The authors have not responded to questions about issue. There may be a prosaic explanation. Perhaps that photo was taken before the cell heated up much. Let us wait to see what they say. I see no point to speculating about this. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Re: Color Temperature
I think the images from the report seen in Figures 12a, 12b, Image 12b is very underexposed , I adjusted the exposure levels on 12b and made a side by side image to compare, it seems that the color temperature might be quite a bit whiter, perhaps even white hot. when seen as it would have looked if the levels were not so dark. http://www.pixhost.org/show/1349/23608237_adjusted-side-by-side.png Nixter On Sunday, October 19, 2014 7:54 PM, ChemE Stewart cheme...@gmail.com wrote: I think the fact you can the see the possible outline of a coil and possibly fins shows a difference in visible//translucent light radiation in those areas. I also find quite a bit of research on translucent sintered alumina and its ability to scatter light through rayleigh and mie scattering. Sintered alumina can appear translucent yellow depending upon how it is sintered. http://infoscience.epfl.ch/record/175704/files/NanoporeCharacterizationAndOpticalModelingOfTransparentPolycrystallineAlumina.pdf http://repository.tudelft.nl/assets/uuid:ad82e9ad-f44f-41d6-86eb-8e64d2e0086b/MS-21.908.pdf Whether this has any bearing on visible color @ high temp in the photos I am not sure. Somebody needs to heat some! Stewart On Sun, Oct 19, 2014 at 5:49 PM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote: H Veeder hveeder...@gmail.com wrote: Consider the difference between the sun at noon and the sun at dawn/dusk. The interior of the HotCat glows white but from the outside it glows red like a sunrise because it is shinning through an atmosphere of alumina. It does not work that way. If the outside surface temperature really is 1400 deg C, then the outside surface material should be incandescent white. It does not matter what the inside temperature is. All materials glow with the same incandescent color at a given temperature. That is what the textbooks claim. I doubt any light is shining through the alumina, but even if it is, the light from incandescence of the outside alumina material itself should be white. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Re: Color Temperature
On Tue, Oct 21, 2014 at 11:49 AM, H Veeder hveeder...@gmail.com wrote: A lack of caftsmanship is not necessarily antithetical to greatness. e.g. The first transistor was crudely assembled. http://cnx.org/resources/9120e4bccd37da6ab1c4ff90e8c498cc/firsttransistor.gif They definitely weren't trying very hard to make that one look nice. Eric
RE: [Vo]:Re: Color Temperature
From: H Veeder * Other examples of light emitting bodies which do not follow the incandescent temperature rule are phosphorescent and fluorescent bodies. Yup. And as far back as 1886 it was noticed that alumina, in one form, was phosphorescent. A paper by Crookes (the one of radiometer fame): On the Crimson Line of Phosphorescent Alumina. 1886. Today with the benefit of 130 years we realize that the alumina tested back then had slight chromium content – think ruby - and today the message is that an aluminum paste– such as applied to Inconel wires embedded in a alumina tube housing – containing trace chromium - can provide overwhelming phosphorescent red coloration… and thus the tube is not in keeping with an incandescent temperature determination. In short –this Levi report is miles away from being a scientific paper. The details of fabrication of the tube are hidden, and the reddish glow does not necessarily mean lower temperature if there is ruby phosphorescence in a paste or coating.
RE: [Vo]:Re: Color Temperature
Furthermore… If the grade of Inconel was 625 or 617 - either or which contains about ¼ of the alloy as chromium, then the ppm “bleed” from these wires into an alumina coating or paste could provide redish phosphorescent color. It requires very little chrome for a ruby glow. We should know the grade of Inconel – in any reasonable scientific report. That we do not is regrettable. ERGO – the “color temperature” issue is probably less of a valid concern than the many other problems with this fiasco. Can’t resist this: As Mick sez about Ruby: Who could hang a name on you? when you change on every new day Say, isn’t Rossi also a paler shade of red? From: H Veeder * Other examples of light emitting bodies which do not follow the incandescent temperature rule are phosphorescent and fluorescent bodies. Yup. And as far back as 1886 it was noticed that alumina, in one form, was phosphorescent. A paper by Crookes (the one of radiometer fame): On the Crimson Line of Phosphorescent Alumina. 1886. Today with the benefit of 130 years we realize that the alumina tested back then had slight chromium content – think ruby - and today the message is that an aluminum paste– such as applied to Inconel wires embedded in a alumina tube housing – containing trace chromium - can provide overwhelming phosphorescent red coloration… and thus the tube is not in keeping with an incandescent temperature determination. In short –this Levi report is miles away from being a scientific paper. The details of fabrication of the tube are hidden, and the reddish glow does not necessarily mean lower temperature if there is ruby phosphorescence in a paste or coating.
Re: [Vo]:Re: Color Temperature
speculation on the inconel, the photography are good for question, but theres too many uncertainties... maybe the resistor is not at all inconel, and the inconel is only used for connecting wires, or they are not even the classic inconel but some variant... for the color, may main hypotheis is that the camera is over exposed. note also that modern camera have a spectrum which cover IR and UV unless a good filter is used. note also that if you follow Ed storms theory, UV or EUV may be emitted by hydrotons, or X-rays... in coherent bursts... saying the test is incoherent is the same behavior of people who debunked FP on hot fusion theory, or like lewis on wrong assumption about their calorimeter , or like hansen on wrong assumption on current density, or the cowboys who debunked birds because no cows can fly. 2014-10-20 18:58 GMT+02:00 Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net: Furthermore… If the grade of Inconel was 625 or 617 - either or which contains about ¼ of the alloy as chromium, then the ppm “bleed” from these wires into an alumina coating or paste could provide redish phosphorescent color. It requires very little chrome for a ruby glow. We should know the grade of Inconel – in any reasonable scientific report. That we do not is regrettable. ERGO – the “color temperature” issue is probably less of a valid concern than the many other problems with this fiasco. Can’t resist this: As Mick sez about Ruby: Who could hang a name on you? when you change on every new day Say, isn’t Rossi also a paler shade of red? From: H Veeder Ø Other examples of light emitting bodies which* do not* follow the incand escent temperature rule are phosphorescent and fluorescent bodies. Yup. And as far back as 1886 it was noticed that alumina, in one form, was phosphorescent. A paper by Crookes (the one of radiometer fame): On the Crimson Line of Phosphorescent Alumina. 1886. Today with the benefit of 130 years we realize that the alumina tested back then had slight chromium content – think ruby - and today the message is that an aluminum paste– such as applied to Inconel wires embedded in a alumina tube housing – containing trace chromium - can provide overwhelming phosphorescent red coloration… and thus the tube is not in keeping with an incandescent temperature determination. In short –this Levi report is miles away from being a scientific paper. The details of fabrication of the tube are hidden, and the reddish glow does not necessarily mean lower temperature if there is ruby phosphorescence in a paste or coating.
Re: [Vo]:Re: Color Temperature
From rossi: The coils of the reactor are made with a proptietary alloy, and the inconel is only a doped component of it. And The nature and composition of the coils are of paramount importance in our IP and for obvious reasons I will not give any more information And stupidity, Alumina becomes White heat only when it melts at 2070°C and compare it to the glass is an elementary mistake Taken from rossilivecat.com
Re: [Vo]:Re: Color Temperature
On Mon, Oct 20, 2014 at 2:28 PM, Patrick Ellul ellulpatr...@gmail.com wrote: From rossi: The coils of the reactor are made with a proptietary alloy, and the inconel is only a doped component of it. And The nature and composition of the coils are of paramount importance in our IP and for obvious reasons I will not give any more information And stupidity, Alumina becomes White heat only when it melts at 2070°C and compare it to the glass is an elementary mistake Assuming these statements are true, they expose the limits of our overclever, hairsplitting inductive reasoning. I'm guessing there is an explanation for everything that seems off in the Lugano test that would make sense of things once it was known. Drawing any firm conclusions at this point would be foolish. This is not to say that the report could not have been more forthcoming or better prepared concerning critical details. With what we currently know, ultimately one must take the details on faith, which is precisely what skeptics will not want to do. Perhaps this is by design: those who are willing to assume the best will learn a little tidbit here and there, and those whose temperaments dispose them to look for hidden wires, laser beams and magic tricks will be preoccupied with those things instead. Eric
Re: [Vo]:Re: Color Temperature
I wrote: With what we currently know, ultimately one must take the details on faith, which is precisely what skeptics will not want to do. Obviously this is not the mode of science. The report provided little to follow upon via scientific investigation. It was more like a piece of long-form journalism, with important details left out, as is often done in journalism. To a certain extent one is forced to take it or leave it. There is little in the way of a satisfying answer to the question of how this report is different from the periodic tests conducted in connection with BLP. Eric
Re: [Vo]:Re: Color Temperature
On Sun, Oct 19, 2014 at 5:49 PM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote: If the outside surface temperature really is 1400 deg C, then the outside surface material should be incandescent white. It does not matter what the inside temperature is. All materials glow with the same incandescent color at a given temperature. That is what the textbooks claim. I doubt any light is shining through the alumina, but even if it is, the light from incandescence of the outside alumina material itself should be white. ok, I now see your point. It doesn't matter if the r eactor is also phosphorescent or fluorescent or some other escent, as long as the *surface* is heated to a temperature of ~1400C then the *surface* should appear white...according to this subjective colour temperature chart: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermal_radiation#Subjective_color_to_the_eye_of_a_black_body_thermal_radiator Compare it to this chart which I presume is the true colour temperature: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black-body_radiation#mediaviewer/File:Blackbody-colours-vertical.svg Harry
Re: [Vo]:Re: Color Temperature
On Mon, Oct 20, 2014 at 9:28 AM, Jones Beene jone...@pacbell.net wrote: From: H Veeder Ø Other examples of light emitting bodies which* do not* follow the incandescent temperature rule are phosphorescent and fluorescent bodies. Yup. And as far back as 1886 it was noticed that alumina, in one form, was phosphorescent. A paper by Crookes (the one of radiometer fame): On the Crimson Line of Phosphorescent Alumina. 1886. Today with the benefit of 130 years we realize that the alumina tested back then had slight chromium content – think ruby - and today the message is that an aluminum paste– such as applied to Inconel wires embedded in a alumina tube housing – containing trace chromium - can provide overwhelming phosphorescent red coloration… and thus the tube is not in keeping with an incandescent temperature determination. In short –this Levi report is miles away from being a scientific paper. The details of fabrication of the tube are hidden, and the reddish glow does not necessarily mean lower temperature if there is ruby phosphorescen ce in a paste or coating. If the surface temperature is 1400C then according to the textbooks, as Jed says, the surface should be glowing white. Other things could be happening too, but they don't alter the standard expectation. Either this incongruity is caused by a measurement error or something entirely new is happening. I've proposed other types of emissions but they don't address the issue of the missing white light. harry
Re: [Vo]:Re: Color Temperature
I saw the photo of the block and of course it seems to be similar as well. I am not convinced that the casting that was treated for 12 hours and quickly removed had time to cool that much. I may be wrong, but the first reference I located showed roughly the same color as well. This also matched what was observed by the testers. I see evidence building up that what the testers saw might have been reasonable. Also, I recall that the sun is supposed to appear near white and it is far hotter than 1400 C. We need to locate an expert in this field to settle the question. Dave -Original Message- From: Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Sun, Oct 19, 2014 2:07 am Subject: Re: [Vo]:Re: Color Temperature David Roberson dlrober...@aol.com wrote: I found another entry relating to heat treating of metals. There is a picture of a heat treated casting that states that it was just removed from the oven after heating at 1200 C for 12 hours. I presume the castings were removed a few minutes before the photo was taken and they have cooled down to around 900 deg C. Look at the first photo in this article, Heat treating furnace at 1,800 °F (980 °C). The red color is similar to the e-cat color, and to the 900 deg C mark on the incandescence color bar: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incandescence#mediaviewer/File:Incandescence_Color.jpg - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Re: Color Temperature
Should the reactor radiate like a normal incandescent body of 1400C or does the reactor radiate according to some other rules? Jed (and Mizuno?) assume it behaves like a normal incandescent body of 1400C so it should glow white. Since it doesn't glow white they assume the output power estimate based on infrared light measurements is invalid. However, even if it were glowing white, the visible light contribution could be ignored and the power output could be (under)estimated from just the infrared light measurements. Harry On Sun, Oct 19, 2014 at 2:19 AM, David Roberson dlrober...@aol.com wrote: I saw the photo of the block and of course it seems to be similar as well. I am not convinced that the casting that was treated for 12 hours and quickly removed had time to cool that much. I may be wrong, but the first reference I located showed roughly the same color as well. This also matched what was observed by the testers. I see evidence building up that what the testers saw might have been reasonable. Also, I recall that the sun is supposed to appear near white and it is far hotter than 1400 C. We need to locate an expert in this field to settle the question. Dave -Original Message- From: Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Sun, Oct 19, 2014 2:07 am Subject: Re: [Vo]:Re: Color Temperature David Roberson dlrober...@aol.com wrote: I found another entry relating to heat treating of metals. There is a picture of a heat treated casting that states that it was just removed from the oven after heating at 1200 C for 12 hours. I presume the castings were removed a few minutes before the photo was taken and they have cooled down to around 900 deg C. Look at the first photo in this article, Heat treating furnace at 1,800 °F (980 °C). The red color is similar to the e-cat color, and to the 900 deg C mark on the incandescence color bar: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incandescence#mediaviewer/File:Incandescence_Color.jpg - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Re: Color Temperature
This is the question that I have been wrestling with for so long Harry. I may have found a method of getting to the real temperature value. The technique need a lot more calibration before it can be trusted. Dave -Original Message- From: H Veeder hveeder...@gmail.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Sun, Oct 19, 2014 3:00 am Subject: Re: [Vo]:Re: Color Temperature Should the reactor radiate like a normal incandescent body of 1400C or does the reactor radiate according to some other rules? Jed (and Mizuno?) assume it behaves like a normal incandescent body of 1400C so it should glow white. Since it doesn't glow white they assume the output power estimate based on infrared light measurements is invalid. However, even if it were glowing white, the visible light contribution could be ignored and the power output could be (under)estimated from just the infrared light measurements. Harry On Sun, Oct 19, 2014 at 2:19 AM, David Roberson dlrober...@aol.com wrote: I saw the photo of the block and of course it seems to be similar as well. I am not convinced that the casting that was treated for 12 hours and quickly removed had time to cool that much. I may be wrong, but the first reference I located showed roughly the same color as well. This also matched what was observed by the testers. I see evidence building up that what the testers saw might have been reasonable. Also, I recall that the sun is supposed to appear near white and it is far hotter than 1400 C. We need to locate an expert in this field to settle the question. Dave -Original Message- From: Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Sun, Oct 19, 2014 2:07 am Subject: Re: [Vo]:Re: Color Temperature David Roberson dlrober...@aol.com wrote: I found another entry relating to heat treating of metals. There is a picture of a heat treated casting that states that it was just removed from the oven after heating at 1200 C for 12 hours. I presume the castings were removed a few minutes before the photo was taken and they have cooled down to around 900 deg C. Look at the first photo in this article, Heat treating furnace at 1,800 °F (980 °C). The red color is similar to the e-cat color, and to the 900 deg C mark on the incandescence color bar: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incandescence#mediaviewer/File:Incandescence_Color.jpg - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Re: Color Temperature
In the report they said they were unable to attach a thermocouple to the exterior of tube. They should have put the test on hold until they figured out how to do it. Harry On Sun, Oct 19, 2014 at 3:04 AM, David Roberson dlrober...@aol.com wrote: This is the question that I have been wrestling with for so long Harry. I may have found a method of getting to the real temperature value. The technique need a lot more calibration before it can be trusted. Dave -Original Message- From: H Veeder hveeder...@gmail.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Sun, Oct 19, 2014 3:00 am Subject: Re: [Vo]:Re: Color Temperature Should the reactor radiate like a normal incandescent body of 1400C or does the reactor radiate according to some other rules? Jed (and Mizuno?) assume it behaves like a normal incandescent body of 1400C so it should glow white. Since it doesn't glow white they assume the output power estimate based on infrared light measurements is invalid. However, even if it were glowing white, the visible light contribution could be ignored and the power output could be (under)estimated from just the infrared light measurements. Harry On Sun, Oct 19, 2014 at 2:19 AM, David Roberson dlrober...@aol.com wrote: I saw the photo of the block and of course it seems to be similar as well. I am not convinced that the casting that was treated for 12 hours and quickly removed had time to cool that much. I may be wrong, but the first reference I located showed roughly the same color as well. This also matched what was observed by the testers. I see evidence building up that what the testers saw might have been reasonable. Also, I recall that the sun is supposed to appear near white and it is far hotter than 1400 C. We need to locate an expert in this field to settle the question. Dave -Original Message- From: Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Sun, Oct 19, 2014 2:07 am Subject: Re: [Vo]:Re: Color Temperature David Roberson dlrober...@aol.com wrote: I found another entry relating to heat treating of metals. There is a picture of a heat treated casting that states that it was just removed from the oven after heating at 1200 C for 12 hours. I presume the castings were removed a few minutes before the photo was taken and they have cooled down to around 900 deg C. Look at the first photo in this article, Heat treating furnace at 1,800 °F (980 °C). The red color is similar to the e-cat color, and to the 900 deg C mark on the incandescence color bar: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incandescence#mediaviewer/File:Incandescence_Color.jpg - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Re: Color Temperature
H Veeder hveeder...@gmail.com wrote: In the report they said they were unable to attach a thermocouple to the exterior of tube. But there is one inside. I asked whether they have readings from it. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Re: Color Temperature
Jed-- I hope you get an answer. This question has caused me to resist getting into a give and take about the camera data. The thermocouple must have been used to calibrate the camera at operating conditions, IF IT WERE WORKING. The lack of this obvious information suggests the T/C was not working properly. They either work on don't from my experience. The question being so simple puts them in a bind to answer. If it didn't work they should, say so. If it did work properly they should provide the data. Rossi claims there were millions of data points. It would nice to request that they publish their data base of all the raw data. It all can't be in the published document if there was as much as suggested by Rossi. However, he may have had some restrictions on the data they could publish to protect revealing the detailed operating conditions. The researchers doing the test would have access to the data as it was accumulated and would have used it to justify their conclusions, despite leaving room for skeptics to rail on. Bob - Original Message - From: Jed Rothwell To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 1:11 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Re: Color Temperature H Veeder hveeder...@gmail.com wrote: In the report they said they were unable to attach a thermocouple to the exterior of tube. But there is one inside. I asked whether they have readings from it. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Re: Color Temperature
We need to enlarge our model space rather than limiting ourselves to one model that is inconsistent with the observations. Consider the difference between the sun at noon and the sun at dawn/dusk. The interior of the HotCat glows white but from the outside it glows red like a sunrise because it is shinning through an atmosphere of alumina. With this model of illumination the the output power estimates appear valid. Harry On Sun, Oct 19, 2014 at 4:11 AM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote: H Veeder hveeder...@gmail.com wrote: In the report they said they were unable to attach a thermocouple to the exterior of tube. But there is one inside. I asked whether they have readings from it. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Re: Color Temperature
On Sun, Oct 19, 2014 at 10:17 AM, Bob Cook frobertc...@hotmail.com wrote: Jed-- I hope you get an answer. This question has caused me to resist getting into a give and take about the camera data. The thermocouple must have been used to calibrate the camera at operating conditions, IF IT WERE WORKING. The lack of this obvious information suggests the T/C was not working properly. They either work on don't from my experience. The question being so simple puts them in a bind to answer. If it didn't work they should, say so. If it did work properly they should provide the data. Rossi claims there were millions of data points. It would nice to request that they publish their data base of all the raw data. It all can't be in the published document if there was as much as suggested by Rossi. However, he may have had some restrictions on the data they could publish to protect revealing the detailed operating conditions. The researchers doing the test would have access to the data as it was accumulated and would have used it to justify their conclusions, despite leaving room for skeptics to rail on. I start with the naive (trusting) assumption that everything the authors of the Lugano report say about the reactor is based on fact rather than guesswork, but they can't reveal why they know them to be factual because it might reveal important IP. Unfortunately, such a situation will stimulate the more distrustful skeptics to imagine incompetence and/or misdirection. Harry
Re: [Vo]:Re: Color Temperature
Harry-- I have the same trusting assumption that your have professed. However, I do not consider mine are completely naive, nor absolutely founded on solid facts. Bob - Original Message - From: H Veeder To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 12:47 PM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Re: Color Temperature On Sun, Oct 19, 2014 at 10:17 AM, Bob Cook frobertc...@hotmail.com wrote: Jed-- I hope you get an answer. This question has caused me to resist getting into a give and take about the camera data. The thermocouple must have been used to calibrate the camera at operating conditions, IF IT WERE WORKING. The lack of this obvious information suggests the T/C was not working properly. They either work on don't from my experience. The question being so simple puts them in a bind to answer. If it didn't work they should, say so. If it did work properly they should provide the data. Rossi claims there were millions of data points. It would nice to request that they publish their data base of all the raw data. It all can't be in the published document if there was as much as suggested by Rossi. However, he may have had some restrictions on the data they could publish to protect revealing the detailed operating conditions. The researchers doing the test would have access to the data as it was accumulated and would have used it to justify their conclusions, despite leaving room for skeptics to rail on. I start with the naive (trusting) assumption that everything the authors of the Lugano report say about the reactor is based on fact rather than guesswork, but they can't reveal why they know them to be factual because it might reveal important IP. Unfortunately, such a situation will stimulate the more distrustful skeptics to imagine incompetence and/or misdirection. Harry
Re: [Vo]:Re: Color Temperature
H Veeder hveeder...@gmail.com wrote: Consider the difference between the sun at noon and the sun at dawn/dusk. The interior of the HotCat glows white but from the outside it glows red like a sunrise because it is shinning through an atmosphere of alumina. It does not work that way. If the outside surface temperature really is 1400 deg C, then the outside surface material should be incandescent white. It does not matter what the inside temperature is. All materials glow with the same incandescent color at a given temperature. That is what the textbooks claim. I doubt any light is shining through the alumina, but even if it is, the light from incandescence of the outside alumina material itself should be white. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Re: Color Temperature
On Sun, Oct 19, 2014 at 5:49 PM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote: H Veeder hveeder...@gmail.com wrote: Consider the difference between the sun at noon and the sun at dawn/dusk. The interior of the HotCat glows white but from the outside it glows red like a sunrise because it is shinning through an atmosphere of alumina. It does not work that way. If the outside surface temperature really is 1400 deg C, then the outside surface material should be incandescent white. It does not matter what the inside temperature is. All materials glow with the same incandescent color at a given temperature. That is what the textbooks claim. I doubt any light is shining through the alumina, but even if it is, the light from incandescence of the outside alumina material itself should be white. - Jed This is true for an incandescent body, but remember the reactor may not be an incandescent body. An incandescent body passively heats itself by receiving energy from an external energy source. e.g. clay pot in a hot kiln or a resistor with current flowing throw it. On the other hand the Sun actively heats itself, but if it is identified as a white incandescent body then its surface temperature will be underestimated by 4600C (6000C - 1400C). Similarly, if the HotCat actively heats itself but it is identified with a red incandescent body then its surface temperature will be underestimated. The Stephan-Blotzman law is valuable because it is agnostic on the issue of how a body comes to have a surface temperature. It is not a relationship between input power and output power. It is a relationship between the surface temperature and output power. Attaching the label Incandescent to a body comes with an assumption about the underlying dynamics which bring about a body's temperature. The presumption of incandescence has probably been true of most investigations of LENR/CF heat anomalies but this new report shows it is an inaccurate assumption. Harry
Re: [Vo]:Re: Color Temperature
The surface temperature of the Sun is effectively several millions of degrees. The atmosphere of the Sun is heated by magnetic fields from deep within the core of the Sun. Yes, the surface of the Sun is cool, but the roiling Corona is the plasma that produces the bright white light that we see here on earth. On Sun, Oct 19, 2014 at 7:27 PM, H Veeder hveeder...@gmail.com wrote: On Sun, Oct 19, 2014 at 5:49 PM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote: H Veeder hveeder...@gmail.com wrote: Consider the difference between the sun at noon and the sun at dawn/dusk. The interior of the HotCat glows white but from the outside it glows red like a sunrise because it is shinning through an atmosphere of alumina. It does not work that way. If the outside surface temperature really is 1400 deg C, then the outside surface material should be incandescent white. It does not matter what the inside temperature is. All materials glow with the same incandescent color at a given temperature. That is what the textbooks claim. I doubt any light is shining through the alumina, but even if it is, the light from incandescence of the outside alumina material itself should be white. - Jed This is true for an incandescent body, but remember the reactor may not be an incandescent body. An incandescent body passively heats itself by receiving energy from an external energy source. e.g. clay pot in a hot kiln or a resistor with current flowing throw it. On the other hand the Sun actively heats itself, but if it is identified as a white incandescent body then its surface temperature will be underestimated by 4600C (6000C - 1400C). Similarly, if the HotCat actively heats itself but it is identified with a red incandescent body then its surface temperature will be underestimated. The Stephan-Blotzman law is valuable because it is agnostic on the issue of how a body comes to have a surface temperature. It is not a relationship between input power and output power. It is a relationship between the surface temperature and output power. Attaching the label Incandescent to a body comes with an assumption about the underlying dynamics which bring about a body's temperature. The presumption of incandescence has probably been true of most investigations of LENR/CF heat anomalies but this new report shows it is an inaccurate assumption. Harry
Re: [Vo]:Re: Color Temperature
I think the fact you can the see the possible outline of a coil and possibly fins shows a difference in visible//translucent light radiation in those areas. I also find quite a bit of research on translucent sintered alumina and its ability to scatter light through rayleigh and mie scattering. Sintered alumina can appear translucent yellow depending upon how it is sintered. http://infoscience.epfl.ch/record/175704/files/NanoporeCharacterizationAndOpticalModelingOfTransparentPolycrystallineAlumina.pdf http://repository.tudelft.nl/assets/uuid:ad82e9ad-f44f-41d6-86eb-8e64d2e0086b/MS-21.908.pdf Whether this has any bearing on visible color @ high temp in the photos I am not sure. Somebody needs to heat some! Stewart On Sun, Oct 19, 2014 at 5:49 PM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote: H Veeder hveeder...@gmail.com wrote: Consider the difference between the sun at noon and the sun at dawn/dusk. The interior of the HotCat glows white but from the outside it glows red like a sunrise because it is shinning through an atmosphere of alumina. It does not work that way. If the outside surface temperature really is 1400 deg C, then the outside surface material should be incandescent white. It does not matter what the inside temperature is. All materials glow with the same incandescent color at a given temperature. That is what the textbooks claim. I doubt any light is shining through the alumina, but even if it is, the light from incandescence of the outside alumina material itself should be white. - Jed
Re: [Vo]:Re: Color Temperature
Other examples of light emitting bodies which do not follow the incandascent temperature rule are phosphorescent and fluorescent bodies. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phosphorescence http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluorescence Harry On Sun, Oct 19, 2014 at 7:27 PM, H Veeder hveeder...@gmail.com wrote: On Sun, Oct 19, 2014 at 5:49 PM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote: H Veeder hveeder...@gmail.com wrote: Consider the difference between the sun at noon and the sun at dawn/dusk. The interior of the HotCat glows white but from the outside it glows red like a sunrise because it is shinning through an atmosphere of alumina. It does not work that way. If the outside surface temperature really is 1400 deg C, then the outside surface material should be incandescent white. It does not matter what the inside temperature is. All materials glow with the same incandescent color at a given temperature. That is what the textbooks claim. I doubt any light is shining through the alumina, but even if it is, the light from incandescence of the outside alumina material itself should be white. - Jed This is true for an incandescent body, but remember the reactor may not be an incandescent body. An incandescent body passively heats itself by receiving energy from an external energy source. e.g. clay pot in a hot kiln or a resistor with current flowing throw it. On the other hand the Sun actively heats itself, but if it is identified as a white incandescent body then its surface temperature will be underestimated by 4600C (6000C - 1400C). Similarly, if the HotCat actively heats itself but it is identified with a red incandescent body then its surface temperature will be underestimated. The Stephan-Blotzman law is valuable because it is agnostic on the issue of how a body comes to have a surface temperature. It is not a relationship between input power and output power. It is a relationship between the surface temperature and output power. Attaching the label Incandescent to a body comes with an assumption about the underlying dynamics which bring about a body's temperature. The presumption of incandescence has probably been true of most investigations of LENR/CF heat anomalies but this new report shows it is an inaccurate assumption. Harry
Re: [Vo]:Re: Color Temperature
Many different types of Luminescence are listed here. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luminescence quote Luminescence is emission of light by a substance not resulting from heat; it is thus a form of cold body radiation. It can be caused by chemical reactions, electrical energy, subatomic motions, or stress on a crystal. This distinguishes luminescence fromincandescence, which is light emitted by a substance as a result of heating. Historically, radioactivity was thought of as a form of radio-luminescence, although it is today considered to be separate since it involves more than electromagnetic radiation. The term 'luminescence' was introduced in 1888 by Eilhard Wiedemann On Mon, Oct 20, 2014 at 1:16 AM, H Veeder hveeder...@gmail.com wrote: Other examples of light emitting bodies which do not follow the incandascent temperature rule are phosphorescent and fluorescent bodies. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phosphorescence http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluorescence Harry On Sun, Oct 19, 2014 at 7:27 PM, H Veeder hveeder...@gmail.com wrote: On Sun, Oct 19, 2014 at 5:49 PM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote: H Veeder hveeder...@gmail.com wrote: Consider the difference between the sun at noon and the sun at dawn/dusk. The interior of the HotCat glows white but from the outside it glows red like a sunrise because it is shinning through an atmosphere of alumina. It does not work that way. If the outside surface temperature really is 1400 deg C, then the outside surface material should be incandescent white. It does not matter what the inside temperature is. All materials glow with the same incandescent color at a given temperature. That is what the textbooks claim. I doubt any light is shining through the alumina, but even if it is, the light from incandescence of the outside alumina material itself should be white. - Jed This is true for an incandescent body, but remember the reactor may not be an incandescent body. An incandescent body passively heats itself by receiving energy from an external energy source. e.g. clay pot in a hot kiln or a resistor with current flowing throw it. On the other hand the Sun actively heats itself, but if it is identified as a white incandescent body then its surface temperature will be underestimated by 4600C (6000C - 1400C). Similarly, if the HotCat actively heats itself but it is identified with a red incandescent body then its surface temperature will be underestimated. The Stephan-Blotzman law is valuable because it is agnostic on the issue of how a body comes to have a surface temperature. It is not a relationship between input power and output power. It is a relationship between the surface temperature and output power. Attaching the label Incandescent to a body comes with an assumption about the underlying dynamics which bring about a body's temperature. The presumption of incandescence has probably been true of most investigations of LENR/CF heat anomalies but this new report shows it is an inaccurate assumption. Harry
[Vo]:Re: Color Temperature
I found another entry relating to heat treating of metals. There is a picture of a heat treated casting that states that it was just removed from the oven after heating at 1200 C for 12 hours. Again, the color of the casting is very orange. Why does this not apply to the case at hand? The link is: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_treating I certainly do not claim to be an expert in this subject area, but the evidence points to the pictures from the experiment being somewhat reasonable. Dave -Original Message- From: David Roberson dlrober...@aol.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Sat, Oct 18, 2014 10:38 pm Subject: Color Temperature Take a look at the article in wikipedia about color temperature. Unless I am reading it incorrectly the color expected for a source at 1700K is quite orange. This is in line with what is reported in the latest test. Could someone take a moment to explain to me why the device should not be orange? I have seen where Jed thinks it should be white and I am at a loss. The article is located at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color_temperature. Dave
Re: [Vo]:Re: Color Temperature
David Roberson dlrober...@aol.com wrote: I found another entry relating to heat treating of metals. There is a picture of a heat treated casting that states that it was just removed from the oven after heating at 1200 C for 12 hours. I presume the castings were removed a few minutes before the photo was taken and they have cooled down to around 900 deg C. Look at the first photo in this article, Heat treating furnace at 1,800 °F (980 °C). The red color is similar to the e-cat color, and to the 900 deg C mark on the incandescence color bar: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incandescence#mediaviewer/File:Incandescence_Color.jpg - Jed
