Re: [Wikimedia-l] Movement Strategy: Draft recommendations are here!

[Benjamin Ikuta]

It is disturbing that you would even consider overriding the community in such 
a massive way. 



On Aug 23, 2019, at 9:44 PM, James Heilman  wrote:

> The board will be discussing this of course. We do not have a group
> position at this point in time.
> 
> J
> 
> On Fri, Aug 23, 2019 at 12:47 PM Jeff Hawke  wrote:
> 
>> James
>> 
>> Thanks for that.  As a member of the Board, would you clarify the Board's
>> position on whether it is prepared to see the final Recommendations
>> implemented irrespective of any disagreement from the community?
>> 
>> Jeff
>> 
>> On Fri, Aug 23, 2019 at 12:05 PM James Heilman  wrote:
>> 
>>> I for one do not agree with Jan-Bart's prior position.
>>> 
>>> James
>>> 
>>> On Fri, Aug 23, 2019 at 4:40 AM Jeff Hawke 
>>> wrote:
>>> 
 Paulo,
 
 You suggest that "things will not get pretty if the Wikimedia community
 does not approve some of the recommendations".  You may recall that
>> just
 five years ago, Jan-Bart de Vreede, then chair of the WMF Board,
>>> expressed
 the opinion
 
 
>>> 
>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:LilaTretikov_(WMF)=prev=9585319
 over
 a much less dramatic change.
 
> All of this is going to require change, change that might not be
 acceptable to some of you. I hope that all of you will be a part of
>> this
 next step in our evolution. But I understand that if you decide to
>> take a
 wiki-break, that might be the way things have to be. Even so, you have
>> to
 let the Foundation do its work and allow us all to take that next step
>>> when
 needed. I can only hope that your break is temporary, and that you will
 return when the time is right.
 
 I presume this is a good summary of the WMF position today.
 
 Jeff
 
 On Fri, Aug 23, 2019 at 12:06 AM Paulo Santos Perneta <
 paulospern...@gmail.com> wrote:
 
> If I've well understood the timeline, all input from the Wikimedia
> community ceases in mid September. Then it's all defined by the WGs
>>> 8and
> their advisors), and eventually decided upon by the BoT around
>>> December.
> Therefore, after 15 September or so, the Wikimedia community will
>> only
>>> be
> dealing with those recommendations again when they are already in the
> process of implementation.
> 
> It's quite easy to predict that things will not get pretty if the
 Wikimedia
> community does not approve some of the recommendations that pass all
>>> the
> way till implementation phase.
> 
> Paulo
> 
> Nicole Ebber  escreveu no dia quinta,
> 22/08/2019
> à(s) 11:58:
> 
>> Dear all,
>> 
>> Thank you for your engagement and input. It’s been great seeing so
>>> much
>> attention on movement strategy and collaborative efforts for
>> building
 our
>> future. Here are a couple of follow up responses and
>> clarifications.
>> 
>> DRAFTS
>> As pointed out in my previous email, the documents we recently
>> shared
 are
>> recommendation drafts. They are not final, and not complete, but
 working
>> documents that are currently being refined by the working groups.
>>> Some
>> answers still read like stubs that are longing for further
>>> development,
>> others are very detailed and will become more focused over the next
>>> few
>> weeks. We still decided to publish everything at once, to give
 everyone a
>> full picture of the variety of topics and offer an insight into
 multiple
>> progress levels.
>> 
>> I would also like to reiterate that movement values, priorities and
>> community conversation processes are high on our radar. A
 recommendation
> to
>> change the existing license model, for example, will not just go
 through
> a
>> quick approval process, but lead to a deeper exploration into the
> reasoning
>> behind it: What problems are we trying to tackle, and what could be
 ways
> to
>> mitigate them? Such recommendation would then rather suggest to
>> look
 into
>> different measures to ensure indigenous knowledge is included in
>> the
>> Wikimedia ecosystem, deploy research and further consultation,
>>> instead
 of
>> rushing to a quick fix.
>> 
>> INTEGRATION
>> The working groups are taking input that they gathered at Wikimania
>>> and
> via
>> different movement channels and incorporating it into the next
 iteration
> of
>> their recommendations. These documents will then serve as a basis
>> for
>> harmonization across working groups.
>> 
>> The input that we are gathering comes in on different levels. Some
>> of
 it
>> targets structural level changes or emphasizes specific principles
>> or
>> values, while other feedback is more on the programmatic side or
 already
>> addressing implementation. Structural input will 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Movement Strategy: Draft recommendations are here!

[James Heilman]

The board will be discussing this of course. We do not have a group
position at this point in time.

J

On Fri, Aug 23, 2019 at 12:47 PM Jeff Hawke  wrote:

> James
>
> Thanks for that.  As a member of the Board, would you clarify the Board's
> position on whether it is prepared to see the final Recommendations
> implemented irrespective of any disagreement from the community?
>
> Jeff
>
> On Fri, Aug 23, 2019 at 12:05 PM James Heilman  wrote:
>
> > I for one do not agree with Jan-Bart's prior position.
> >
> > James
> >
> > On Fri, Aug 23, 2019 at 4:40 AM Jeff Hawke 
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Paulo,
> > >
> > > You suggest that "things will not get pretty if the Wikimedia community
> > > does not approve some of the recommendations".  You may recall that
> just
> > > five years ago, Jan-Bart de Vreede, then chair of the WMF Board,
> > expressed
> > > the opinion
> > >
> > >
> >
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:LilaTretikov_(WMF)=prev=9585319
> > > over
> > > a much less dramatic change.
> > >
> > > > All of this is going to require change, change that might not be
> > > acceptable to some of you. I hope that all of you will be a part of
> this
> > > next step in our evolution. But I understand that if you decide to
> take a
> > > wiki-break, that might be the way things have to be. Even so, you have
> to
> > > let the Foundation do its work and allow us all to take that next step
> > when
> > > needed. I can only hope that your break is temporary, and that you will
> > > return when the time is right.
> > >
> > > I presume this is a good summary of the WMF position today.
> > >
> > > Jeff
> > >
> > > On Fri, Aug 23, 2019 at 12:06 AM Paulo Santos Perneta <
> > > paulospern...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > If I've well understood the timeline, all input from the Wikimedia
> > > > community ceases in mid September. Then it's all defined by the WGs
> > 8and
> > > > their advisors), and eventually decided upon by the BoT around
> > December.
> > > > Therefore, after 15 September or so, the Wikimedia community will
> only
> > be
> > > > dealing with those recommendations again when they are already in the
> > > > process of implementation.
> > > >
> > > > It's quite easy to predict that things will not get pretty if the
> > > Wikimedia
> > > > community does not approve some of the recommendations that pass all
> > the
> > > > way till implementation phase.
> > > >
> > > > Paulo
> > > >
> > > > Nicole Ebber  escreveu no dia quinta,
> > > > 22/08/2019
> > > > à(s) 11:58:
> > > >
> > > > > Dear all,
> > > > >
> > > > > Thank you for your engagement and input. It’s been great seeing so
> > much
> > > > > attention on movement strategy and collaborative efforts for
> building
> > > our
> > > > > future. Here are a couple of follow up responses and
> clarifications.
> > > > >
> > > > > DRAFTS
> > > > > As pointed out in my previous email, the documents we recently
> shared
> > > are
> > > > > recommendation drafts. They are not final, and not complete, but
> > > working
> > > > > documents that are currently being refined by the working groups.
> > Some
> > > > > answers still read like stubs that are longing for further
> > development,
> > > > > others are very detailed and will become more focused over the next
> > few
> > > > > weeks. We still decided to publish everything at once, to give
> > > everyone a
> > > > > full picture of the variety of topics and offer an insight into
> > > multiple
> > > > > progress levels.
> > > > >
> > > > > I would also like to reiterate that movement values, priorities and
> > > > > community conversation processes are high on our radar. A
> > > recommendation
> > > > to
> > > > > change the existing license model, for example, will not just go
> > > through
> > > > a
> > > > > quick approval process, but lead to a deeper exploration into the
> > > > reasoning
> > > > > behind it: What problems are we trying to tackle, and what could be
> > > ways
> > > > to
> > > > > mitigate them? Such recommendation would then rather suggest to
> look
> > > into
> > > > > different measures to ensure indigenous knowledge is included in
> the
> > > > > Wikimedia ecosystem, deploy research and further consultation,
> > instead
> > > of
> > > > > rushing to a quick fix.
> > > > >
> > > > > INTEGRATION
> > > > > The working groups are taking input that they gathered at Wikimania
> > and
> > > > via
> > > > > different movement channels and incorporating it into the next
> > > iteration
> > > > of
> > > > > their recommendations. These documents will then serve as a basis
> for
> > > > > harmonization across working groups.
> > > > >
> > > > > The input that we are gathering comes in on different levels. Some
> of
> > > it
> > > > > targets structural level changes or emphasizes specific principles
> or
> > > > > values, while other feedback is more on the programmatic side or
> > > already
> > > > > addressing implementation. Structural input will continue to be
> > > > 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Movement Strategy: Draft recommendations are here!

[Jeff Hawke]

James

Thanks for that.  As a member of the Board, would you clarify the Board's
position on whether it is prepared to see the final Recommendations
implemented irrespective of any disagreement from the community?

Jeff

On Fri, Aug 23, 2019 at 12:05 PM James Heilman  wrote:

> I for one do not agree with Jan-Bart's prior position.
>
> James
>
> On Fri, Aug 23, 2019 at 4:40 AM Jeff Hawke 
> wrote:
>
> > Paulo,
> >
> > You suggest that "things will not get pretty if the Wikimedia community
> > does not approve some of the recommendations".  You may recall that just
> > five years ago, Jan-Bart de Vreede, then chair of the WMF Board,
> expressed
> > the opinion
> >
> >
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:LilaTretikov_(WMF)=prev=9585319
> > over
> > a much less dramatic change.
> >
> > > All of this is going to require change, change that might not be
> > acceptable to some of you. I hope that all of you will be a part of this
> > next step in our evolution. But I understand that if you decide to take a
> > wiki-break, that might be the way things have to be. Even so, you have to
> > let the Foundation do its work and allow us all to take that next step
> when
> > needed. I can only hope that your break is temporary, and that you will
> > return when the time is right.
> >
> > I presume this is a good summary of the WMF position today.
> >
> > Jeff
> >
> > On Fri, Aug 23, 2019 at 12:06 AM Paulo Santos Perneta <
> > paulospern...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > If I've well understood the timeline, all input from the Wikimedia
> > > community ceases in mid September. Then it's all defined by the WGs
> 8and
> > > their advisors), and eventually decided upon by the BoT around
> December.
> > > Therefore, after 15 September or so, the Wikimedia community will only
> be
> > > dealing with those recommendations again when they are already in the
> > > process of implementation.
> > >
> > > It's quite easy to predict that things will not get pretty if the
> > Wikimedia
> > > community does not approve some of the recommendations that pass all
> the
> > > way till implementation phase.
> > >
> > > Paulo
> > >
> > > Nicole Ebber  escreveu no dia quinta,
> > > 22/08/2019
> > > à(s) 11:58:
> > >
> > > > Dear all,
> > > >
> > > > Thank you for your engagement and input. It’s been great seeing so
> much
> > > > attention on movement strategy and collaborative efforts for building
> > our
> > > > future. Here are a couple of follow up responses and clarifications.
> > > >
> > > > DRAFTS
> > > > As pointed out in my previous email, the documents we recently shared
> > are
> > > > recommendation drafts. They are not final, and not complete, but
> > working
> > > > documents that are currently being refined by the working groups.
> Some
> > > > answers still read like stubs that are longing for further
> development,
> > > > others are very detailed and will become more focused over the next
> few
> > > > weeks. We still decided to publish everything at once, to give
> > everyone a
> > > > full picture of the variety of topics and offer an insight into
> > multiple
> > > > progress levels.
> > > >
> > > > I would also like to reiterate that movement values, priorities and
> > > > community conversation processes are high on our radar. A
> > recommendation
> > > to
> > > > change the existing license model, for example, will not just go
> > through
> > > a
> > > > quick approval process, but lead to a deeper exploration into the
> > > reasoning
> > > > behind it: What problems are we trying to tackle, and what could be
> > ways
> > > to
> > > > mitigate them? Such recommendation would then rather suggest to look
> > into
> > > > different measures to ensure indigenous knowledge is included in the
> > > > Wikimedia ecosystem, deploy research and further consultation,
> instead
> > of
> > > > rushing to a quick fix.
> > > >
> > > > INTEGRATION
> > > > The working groups are taking input that they gathered at Wikimania
> and
> > > via
> > > > different movement channels and incorporating it into the next
> > iteration
> > > of
> > > > their recommendations. These documents will then serve as a basis for
> > > > harmonization across working groups.
> > > >
> > > > The input that we are gathering comes in on different levels. Some of
> > it
> > > > targets structural level changes or emphasizes specific principles or
> > > > values, while other feedback is more on the programmatic side or
> > already
> > > > addressing implementation. Structural input will continue to be
> > > considered
> > > > in forthcoming iterations of the recommendations. Programmatic input
> > will
> > > > be documented and taken forward to inform the implementation.
> > > >
> > > > TIMELINE
> > > > We wanted to get the English drafts out as soon as possible and the
> > > > translations on a rolling basis, so that Wikimania participants could
> > > read
> > > > and prepare to engage in person. Over the next few weeks, we will do
> > > > 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] "Not in the other language, Wiktionary edition"

[Rajeeb Dutta]

Thanks Amir for your great contribution once again.

Best Regards,
Rajeeb.
(U: Marajozkee)
Sent from my iPhone 

> On 23-Aug-2019, at 9:11 PM, Shani Evenstein  wrote:
> 
> Amir, you rock! Thanks so much.
> 
> This came up as somehing that could be helpful during the Wiktionary &
> Wikisource panel at the Education space. Some panelists mentioned tgey are
> wasting a lot time curating lists, so thought it coukd be helpful.
> 
> Forwarding to Wikimedia-l as many Wikrionary and Wikisource people ate
> there.
> 
> Cheers,
> Shani
> 
>> On Fri, 23 Aug 2019, 16:27 Amir Sarabadani > 
>> Hey,
>> During Wikimania, Shani told me the famous "Not in the other language"
>> tool [1] doesn't work for Wiktionary (because the tool is based on Wikidata
>> but Wiktionary uses something called Cognate). On my way to the airport, I
>> wrote a hacky small thing to make things easier for Wiktionary users that
>> you can find in [2]. Here's an example, list of French nouns that exist in
>> German Wiktionary but not in English [3]. The code can be found in [4] and
>> needs lots of love if anyone is interested.
>> 
>> HTH
>> 
>> [1]: https://tools.wmflabs.org/not-in-the-other-language/
>> [2]: https://tools.wmflabs.org/dexbot/tools/nitolw
>> [3]:
>> https://tools.wmflabs.org/dexbot/tools/nitolw/index.php?fromLang=de=en=Substantiv+%28Franz%C3%B6sisch%29=50
>> [4]:https://github.com/Ladsgroup/NITOLW
>> 
>> Best
>> --
>> Amir (he/him)
>> 
>> 
> ___
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: 
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and 
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> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, 
> 

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Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] "Not in the other language, Wiktionary edition"

[Shani Evenstein]

Amir, you rock! Thanks so much.

This came up as somehing that could be helpful during the Wiktionary &
Wikisource panel at the Education space. Some panelists mentioned tgey are
wasting a lot time curating lists, so thought it coukd be helpful.

Forwarding to Wikimedia-l as many Wikrionary and Wikisource people ate
there.

Cheers,
Shani

On Fri, 23 Aug 2019, 16:27 Amir Sarabadani  Hey,
> During Wikimania, Shani told me the famous "Not in the other language"
> tool [1] doesn't work for Wiktionary (because the tool is based on Wikidata
> but Wiktionary uses something called Cognate). On my way to the airport, I
> wrote a hacky small thing to make things easier for Wiktionary users that
> you can find in [2]. Here's an example, list of French nouns that exist in
> German Wiktionary but not in English [3]. The code can be found in [4] and
> needs lots of love if anyone is interested.
>
> HTH
>
> [1]: https://tools.wmflabs.org/not-in-the-other-language/
> [2]: https://tools.wmflabs.org/dexbot/tools/nitolw
> [3]:
> https://tools.wmflabs.org/dexbot/tools/nitolw/index.php?fromLang=de=en=Substantiv+%28Franz%C3%B6sisch%29=50
> [4]:https://github.com/Ladsgroup/NITOLW
>
> Best
> --
> Amir (he/him)
>
>
___
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https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and 
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Movement Strategy: Draft recommendations are here!

[Paulo Santos Perneta]

Hello James,

If we can do that together, it is not evident from the timeline sent by
Nicole. How can we " collaborate with each other", "the wider community
engage with the proposals that have been made", and we together "develop a
final document that the majority of us in all parts of the movement can
support" if after 15 September or so we will be excluded from the entire
process that will led to the final recommendations?

All we can do is to comment on this very preliminary draft, kind of
shouting in the dark in the hopes that someone would hear, with very little
dialogue with the people that will be defining them, if at all.

Paulo

James Heilman  escreveu no dia sexta, 23/08/2019 à(s)
12:09:

> To clarify on this, yes we need to make changes as a movement, but we need
> to do so in collaboration with each other. My hope is that the wider
> community will engage with the proposals that have been made. And that we
> can develop a final document that the majority of us in all parts of the
> movement can support.
>
> James
>
> On Fri, Aug 23, 2019 at 5:04 AM James Heilman  wrote:
>
> > I for one do not agree with Jan-Bart's prior position.
> >
> > James
> >
> > On Fri, Aug 23, 2019 at 4:40 AM Jeff Hawke 
> > wrote:
> >
> >> Paulo,
> >>
> >> You suggest that "things will not get pretty if the Wikimedia community
> >> does not approve some of the recommendations".  You may recall that just
> >> five years ago, Jan-Bart de Vreede, then chair of the WMF Board,
> expressed
> >> the opinion
> >>
> >>
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:LilaTretikov_(WMF)=prev=9585319
> >> over
> >> a much less dramatic change.
> >>
> >> > All of this is going to require change, change that might not be
> >> acceptable to some of you. I hope that all of you will be a part of this
> >> next step in our evolution. But I understand that if you decide to take
> a
> >> wiki-break, that might be the way things have to be. Even so, you have
> to
> >> let the Foundation do its work and allow us all to take that next step
> >> when
> >> needed. I can only hope that your break is temporary, and that you will
> >> return when the time is right.
> >>
> >> I presume this is a good summary of the WMF position today.
> >>
> >> Jeff
> >>
> >> On Fri, Aug 23, 2019 at 12:06 AM Paulo Santos Perneta <
> >> paulospern...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> > If I've well understood the timeline, all input from the Wikimedia
> >> > community ceases in mid September. Then it's all defined by the WGs
> 8and
> >> > their advisors), and eventually decided upon by the BoT around
> December.
> >> > Therefore, after 15 September or so, the Wikimedia community will only
> >> be
> >> > dealing with those recommendations again when they are already in the
> >> > process of implementation.
> >> >
> >> > It's quite easy to predict that things will not get pretty if the
> >> Wikimedia
> >> > community does not approve some of the recommendations that pass all
> the
> >> > way till implementation phase.
> >> >
> >> > Paulo
> >> >
> >> > Nicole Ebber  escreveu no dia quinta,
> >> > 22/08/2019
> >> > à(s) 11:58:
> >> >
> >> > > Dear all,
> >> > >
> >> > > Thank you for your engagement and input. It’s been great seeing so
> >> much
> >> > > attention on movement strategy and collaborative efforts for
> building
> >> our
> >> > > future. Here are a couple of follow up responses and clarifications.
> >> > >
> >> > > DRAFTS
> >> > > As pointed out in my previous email, the documents we recently
> shared
> >> are
> >> > > recommendation drafts. They are not final, and not complete, but
> >> working
> >> > > documents that are currently being refined by the working groups.
> Some
> >> > > answers still read like stubs that are longing for further
> >> development,
> >> > > others are very detailed and will become more focused over the next
> >> few
> >> > > weeks. We still decided to publish everything at once, to give
> >> everyone a
> >> > > full picture of the variety of topics and offer an insight into
> >> multiple
> >> > > progress levels.
> >> > >
> >> > > I would also like to reiterate that movement values, priorities and
> >> > > community conversation processes are high on our radar. A
> >> recommendation
> >> > to
> >> > > change the existing license model, for example, will not just go
> >> through
> >> > a
> >> > > quick approval process, but lead to a deeper exploration into the
> >> > reasoning
> >> > > behind it: What problems are we trying to tackle, and what could be
> >> ways
> >> > to
> >> > > mitigate them? Such recommendation would then rather suggest to look
> >> into
> >> > > different measures to ensure indigenous knowledge is included in the
> >> > > Wikimedia ecosystem, deploy research and further consultation,
> >> instead of
> >> > > rushing to a quick fix.
> >> > >
> >> > > INTEGRATION
> >> > > The working groups are taking input that they gathered at Wikimania
> >> and
> >> > via
> >> > > different movement channels and 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Movement Strategy: Draft recommendations are here!

[James Heilman]

To clarify on this, yes we need to make changes as a movement, but we need
to do so in collaboration with each other. My hope is that the wider
community will engage with the proposals that have been made. And that we
can develop a final document that the majority of us in all parts of the
movement can support.

James

On Fri, Aug 23, 2019 at 5:04 AM James Heilman  wrote:

> I for one do not agree with Jan-Bart's prior position.
>
> James
>
> On Fri, Aug 23, 2019 at 4:40 AM Jeff Hawke 
> wrote:
>
>> Paulo,
>>
>> You suggest that "things will not get pretty if the Wikimedia community
>> does not approve some of the recommendations".  You may recall that just
>> five years ago, Jan-Bart de Vreede, then chair of the WMF Board, expressed
>> the opinion
>>
>> https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:LilaTretikov_(WMF)=prev=9585319
>> over
>> a much less dramatic change.
>>
>> > All of this is going to require change, change that might not be
>> acceptable to some of you. I hope that all of you will be a part of this
>> next step in our evolution. But I understand that if you decide to take a
>> wiki-break, that might be the way things have to be. Even so, you have to
>> let the Foundation do its work and allow us all to take that next step
>> when
>> needed. I can only hope that your break is temporary, and that you will
>> return when the time is right.
>>
>> I presume this is a good summary of the WMF position today.
>>
>> Jeff
>>
>> On Fri, Aug 23, 2019 at 12:06 AM Paulo Santos Perneta <
>> paulospern...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> > If I've well understood the timeline, all input from the Wikimedia
>> > community ceases in mid September. Then it's all defined by the WGs 8and
>> > their advisors), and eventually decided upon by the BoT around December.
>> > Therefore, after 15 September or so, the Wikimedia community will only
>> be
>> > dealing with those recommendations again when they are already in the
>> > process of implementation.
>> >
>> > It's quite easy to predict that things will not get pretty if the
>> Wikimedia
>> > community does not approve some of the recommendations that pass all the
>> > way till implementation phase.
>> >
>> > Paulo
>> >
>> > Nicole Ebber  escreveu no dia quinta,
>> > 22/08/2019
>> > à(s) 11:58:
>> >
>> > > Dear all,
>> > >
>> > > Thank you for your engagement and input. It’s been great seeing so
>> much
>> > > attention on movement strategy and collaborative efforts for building
>> our
>> > > future. Here are a couple of follow up responses and clarifications.
>> > >
>> > > DRAFTS
>> > > As pointed out in my previous email, the documents we recently shared
>> are
>> > > recommendation drafts. They are not final, and not complete, but
>> working
>> > > documents that are currently being refined by the working groups. Some
>> > > answers still read like stubs that are longing for further
>> development,
>> > > others are very detailed and will become more focused over the next
>> few
>> > > weeks. We still decided to publish everything at once, to give
>> everyone a
>> > > full picture of the variety of topics and offer an insight into
>> multiple
>> > > progress levels.
>> > >
>> > > I would also like to reiterate that movement values, priorities and
>> > > community conversation processes are high on our radar. A
>> recommendation
>> > to
>> > > change the existing license model, for example, will not just go
>> through
>> > a
>> > > quick approval process, but lead to a deeper exploration into the
>> > reasoning
>> > > behind it: What problems are we trying to tackle, and what could be
>> ways
>> > to
>> > > mitigate them? Such recommendation would then rather suggest to look
>> into
>> > > different measures to ensure indigenous knowledge is included in the
>> > > Wikimedia ecosystem, deploy research and further consultation,
>> instead of
>> > > rushing to a quick fix.
>> > >
>> > > INTEGRATION
>> > > The working groups are taking input that they gathered at Wikimania
>> and
>> > via
>> > > different movement channels and incorporating it into the next
>> iteration
>> > of
>> > > their recommendations. These documents will then serve as a basis for
>> > > harmonization across working groups.
>> > >
>> > > The input that we are gathering comes in on different levels. Some of
>> it
>> > > targets structural level changes or emphasizes specific principles or
>> > > values, while other feedback is more on the programmatic side or
>> already
>> > > addressing implementation. Structural input will continue to be
>> > considered
>> > > in forthcoming iterations of the recommendations. Programmatic input
>> will
>> > > be documented and taken forward to inform the implementation.
>> > >
>> > > TIMELINE
>> > > We wanted to get the English drafts out as soon as possible and the
>> > > translations on a rolling basis, so that Wikimania participants could
>> > read
>> > > and prepare to engage in person. Over the next few weeks, we will do
>> > > targeted, public 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Movement Strategy: Draft recommendations are here!

[Paulo Santos Perneta]

Except that this time they don't "hope that all of you will be a part of
this next step in our evolution", since Wikimedia community input ceases
around 15 September in what has been constantly defined as a very
preliminary draft, with very low to null engagement from the WGs, and next
time we'll see that, it will be already the finished product under
deployment.

Not good.

Paulo

Jeff Hawke  escreveu no dia sexta, 23/08/2019 à(s)
11:40:

> Paulo,
>
> You suggest that "things will not get pretty if the Wikimedia community
> does not approve some of the recommendations".  You may recall that just
> five years ago, Jan-Bart de Vreede, then chair of the WMF Board, expressed
> the opinion
>
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:LilaTretikov_(WMF)=prev=9585319
> over
> a much less dramatic change.
>
> > All of this is going to require change, change that might not be
> acceptable to some of you. I hope that all of you will be a part of this
> next step in our evolution. But I understand that if you decide to take a
> wiki-break, that might be the way things have to be. Even so, you have to
> let the Foundation do its work and allow us all to take that next step when
> needed. I can only hope that your break is temporary, and that you will
> return when the time is right.
>
> I presume this is a good summary of the WMF position today.
>
> Jeff
>
> On Fri, Aug 23, 2019 at 12:06 AM Paulo Santos Perneta <
> paulospern...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > If I've well understood the timeline, all input from the Wikimedia
> > community ceases in mid September. Then it's all defined by the WGs 8and
> > their advisors), and eventually decided upon by the BoT around December.
> > Therefore, after 15 September or so, the Wikimedia community will only be
> > dealing with those recommendations again when they are already in the
> > process of implementation.
> >
> > It's quite easy to predict that things will not get pretty if the
> Wikimedia
> > community does not approve some of the recommendations that pass all the
> > way till implementation phase.
> >
> > Paulo
> >
> > Nicole Ebber  escreveu no dia quinta,
> > 22/08/2019
> > à(s) 11:58:
> >
> > > Dear all,
> > >
> > > Thank you for your engagement and input. It’s been great seeing so much
> > > attention on movement strategy and collaborative efforts for building
> our
> > > future. Here are a couple of follow up responses and clarifications.
> > >
> > > DRAFTS
> > > As pointed out in my previous email, the documents we recently shared
> are
> > > recommendation drafts. They are not final, and not complete, but
> working
> > > documents that are currently being refined by the working groups. Some
> > > answers still read like stubs that are longing for further development,
> > > others are very detailed and will become more focused over the next few
> > > weeks. We still decided to publish everything at once, to give
> everyone a
> > > full picture of the variety of topics and offer an insight into
> multiple
> > > progress levels.
> > >
> > > I would also like to reiterate that movement values, priorities and
> > > community conversation processes are high on our radar. A
> recommendation
> > to
> > > change the existing license model, for example, will not just go
> through
> > a
> > > quick approval process, but lead to a deeper exploration into the
> > reasoning
> > > behind it: What problems are we trying to tackle, and what could be
> ways
> > to
> > > mitigate them? Such recommendation would then rather suggest to look
> into
> > > different measures to ensure indigenous knowledge is included in the
> > > Wikimedia ecosystem, deploy research and further consultation, instead
> of
> > > rushing to a quick fix.
> > >
> > > INTEGRATION
> > > The working groups are taking input that they gathered at Wikimania and
> > via
> > > different movement channels and incorporating it into the next
> iteration
> > of
> > > their recommendations. These documents will then serve as a basis for
> > > harmonization across working groups.
> > >
> > > The input that we are gathering comes in on different levels. Some of
> it
> > > targets structural level changes or emphasizes specific principles or
> > > values, while other feedback is more on the programmatic side or
> already
> > > addressing implementation. Structural input will continue to be
> > considered
> > > in forthcoming iterations of the recommendations. Programmatic input
> will
> > > be documented and taken forward to inform the implementation.
> > >
> > > TIMELINE
> > > We wanted to get the English drafts out as soon as possible and the
> > > translations on a rolling basis, so that Wikimania participants could
> > read
> > > and prepare to engage in person. Over the next few weeks, we will do
> > > targeted, public outreach to online project communities in multiple
> > > languages. We are soliciting feedback to shape the overall direction of
> > the
> > > recommendations through mid-September. Working 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Movement Strategy: Draft recommendations are here!

[James Heilman]

I for one do not agree with Jan-Bart's prior position.

James

On Fri, Aug 23, 2019 at 4:40 AM Jeff Hawke  wrote:

> Paulo,
>
> You suggest that "things will not get pretty if the Wikimedia community
> does not approve some of the recommendations".  You may recall that just
> five years ago, Jan-Bart de Vreede, then chair of the WMF Board, expressed
> the opinion
>
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:LilaTretikov_(WMF)=prev=9585319
> over
> a much less dramatic change.
>
> > All of this is going to require change, change that might not be
> acceptable to some of you. I hope that all of you will be a part of this
> next step in our evolution. But I understand that if you decide to take a
> wiki-break, that might be the way things have to be. Even so, you have to
> let the Foundation do its work and allow us all to take that next step when
> needed. I can only hope that your break is temporary, and that you will
> return when the time is right.
>
> I presume this is a good summary of the WMF position today.
>
> Jeff
>
> On Fri, Aug 23, 2019 at 12:06 AM Paulo Santos Perneta <
> paulospern...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > If I've well understood the timeline, all input from the Wikimedia
> > community ceases in mid September. Then it's all defined by the WGs 8and
> > their advisors), and eventually decided upon by the BoT around December.
> > Therefore, after 15 September or so, the Wikimedia community will only be
> > dealing with those recommendations again when they are already in the
> > process of implementation.
> >
> > It's quite easy to predict that things will not get pretty if the
> Wikimedia
> > community does not approve some of the recommendations that pass all the
> > way till implementation phase.
> >
> > Paulo
> >
> > Nicole Ebber  escreveu no dia quinta,
> > 22/08/2019
> > à(s) 11:58:
> >
> > > Dear all,
> > >
> > > Thank you for your engagement and input. It’s been great seeing so much
> > > attention on movement strategy and collaborative efforts for building
> our
> > > future. Here are a couple of follow up responses and clarifications.
> > >
> > > DRAFTS
> > > As pointed out in my previous email, the documents we recently shared
> are
> > > recommendation drafts. They are not final, and not complete, but
> working
> > > documents that are currently being refined by the working groups. Some
> > > answers still read like stubs that are longing for further development,
> > > others are very detailed and will become more focused over the next few
> > > weeks. We still decided to publish everything at once, to give
> everyone a
> > > full picture of the variety of topics and offer an insight into
> multiple
> > > progress levels.
> > >
> > > I would also like to reiterate that movement values, priorities and
> > > community conversation processes are high on our radar. A
> recommendation
> > to
> > > change the existing license model, for example, will not just go
> through
> > a
> > > quick approval process, but lead to a deeper exploration into the
> > reasoning
> > > behind it: What problems are we trying to tackle, and what could be
> ways
> > to
> > > mitigate them? Such recommendation would then rather suggest to look
> into
> > > different measures to ensure indigenous knowledge is included in the
> > > Wikimedia ecosystem, deploy research and further consultation, instead
> of
> > > rushing to a quick fix.
> > >
> > > INTEGRATION
> > > The working groups are taking input that they gathered at Wikimania and
> > via
> > > different movement channels and incorporating it into the next
> iteration
> > of
> > > their recommendations. These documents will then serve as a basis for
> > > harmonization across working groups.
> > >
> > > The input that we are gathering comes in on different levels. Some of
> it
> > > targets structural level changes or emphasizes specific principles or
> > > values, while other feedback is more on the programmatic side or
> already
> > > addressing implementation. Structural input will continue to be
> > considered
> > > in forthcoming iterations of the recommendations. Programmatic input
> will
> > > be documented and taken forward to inform the implementation.
> > >
> > > TIMELINE
> > > We wanted to get the English drafts out as soon as possible and the
> > > translations on a rolling basis, so that Wikimania participants could
> > read
> > > and prepare to engage in person. Over the next few weeks, we will do
> > > targeted, public outreach to online project communities in multiple
> > > languages. We are soliciting feedback to shape the overall direction of
> > the
> > > recommendations through mid-September. Working Groups are already
> working
> > > on identifying gaps and overlaps with other groups to prepare for
> > > harmonization.
> > >
> > > At the harmonization sprint in Tunis on 20-22 September, we will bring
> 3
> > > representatives from each Working Group together to work to develop a
> > more
> > > coherent set of 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Universal forced HTTPS backdoor in Kazakhstan

[RhinosF1]

link works fine for me Yury

On Fri, 23 Aug 2019 at 10:29, Yury Bulka 
wrote:

> I'm getting a 404:(
>
> John Erling Blad  writes:
>
> > Google, Apple, Mozilla move to block Kazakh surveillance system
> >
> >
> https://www.reuters.com/article/us-kazakhstan-internet-surveillance/google-apple-mozilla-move-to-block-kazakh-surveillance-system-idUSKCN1VB17Q
> > ___
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> 
>
>
> ___
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> 
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Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Movement Strategy: Draft recommendations are here!

[Jeff Hawke]

Paulo,

You suggest that "things will not get pretty if the Wikimedia community
does not approve some of the recommendations".  You may recall that just
five years ago, Jan-Bart de Vreede, then chair of the WMF Board, expressed
the opinion
https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:LilaTretikov_(WMF)=prev=9585319
over
a much less dramatic change.

> All of this is going to require change, change that might not be
acceptable to some of you. I hope that all of you will be a part of this
next step in our evolution. But I understand that if you decide to take a
wiki-break, that might be the way things have to be. Even so, you have to
let the Foundation do its work and allow us all to take that next step when
needed. I can only hope that your break is temporary, and that you will
return when the time is right.

I presume this is a good summary of the WMF position today.

Jeff

On Fri, Aug 23, 2019 at 12:06 AM Paulo Santos Perneta <
paulospern...@gmail.com> wrote:

> If I've well understood the timeline, all input from the Wikimedia
> community ceases in mid September. Then it's all defined by the WGs 8and
> their advisors), and eventually decided upon by the BoT around December.
> Therefore, after 15 September or so, the Wikimedia community will only be
> dealing with those recommendations again when they are already in the
> process of implementation.
>
> It's quite easy to predict that things will not get pretty if the Wikimedia
> community does not approve some of the recommendations that pass all the
> way till implementation phase.
>
> Paulo
>
> Nicole Ebber  escreveu no dia quinta,
> 22/08/2019
> à(s) 11:58:
>
> > Dear all,
> >
> > Thank you for your engagement and input. It’s been great seeing so much
> > attention on movement strategy and collaborative efforts for building our
> > future. Here are a couple of follow up responses and clarifications.
> >
> > DRAFTS
> > As pointed out in my previous email, the documents we recently shared are
> > recommendation drafts. They are not final, and not complete, but working
> > documents that are currently being refined by the working groups. Some
> > answers still read like stubs that are longing for further development,
> > others are very detailed and will become more focused over the next few
> > weeks. We still decided to publish everything at once, to give everyone a
> > full picture of the variety of topics and offer an insight into multiple
> > progress levels.
> >
> > I would also like to reiterate that movement values, priorities and
> > community conversation processes are high on our radar. A recommendation
> to
> > change the existing license model, for example, will not just go through
> a
> > quick approval process, but lead to a deeper exploration into the
> reasoning
> > behind it: What problems are we trying to tackle, and what could be ways
> to
> > mitigate them? Such recommendation would then rather suggest to look into
> > different measures to ensure indigenous knowledge is included in the
> > Wikimedia ecosystem, deploy research and further consultation, instead of
> > rushing to a quick fix.
> >
> > INTEGRATION
> > The working groups are taking input that they gathered at Wikimania and
> via
> > different movement channels and incorporating it into the next iteration
> of
> > their recommendations. These documents will then serve as a basis for
> > harmonization across working groups.
> >
> > The input that we are gathering comes in on different levels. Some of it
> > targets structural level changes or emphasizes specific principles or
> > values, while other feedback is more on the programmatic side or already
> > addressing implementation. Structural input will continue to be
> considered
> > in forthcoming iterations of the recommendations. Programmatic input will
> > be documented and taken forward to inform the implementation.
> >
> > TIMELINE
> > We wanted to get the English drafts out as soon as possible and the
> > translations on a rolling basis, so that Wikimania participants could
> read
> > and prepare to engage in person. Over the next few weeks, we will do
> > targeted, public outreach to online project communities in multiple
> > languages. We are soliciting feedback to shape the overall direction of
> the
> > recommendations through mid-September. Working Groups are already working
> > on identifying gaps and overlaps with other groups to prepare for
> > harmonization.
> >
> > At the harmonization sprint in Tunis on 20-22 September, we will bring 3
> > representatives from each Working Group together to work to develop a
> more
> > coherent set of recommendations. The group will be supported by
> > facilitators and external advice, as well as the core team. We have also
> > invited María Sefidari, Katherine Maher, Ryan Merkley, Valerie D’Costa
> > (Wikimedia Foundation) and Abraham Taherivand (Wikimedia Deutschland) to
> > the sprint. They contribute expertise and experience from their work and
> > 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Universal forced HTTPS backdoor in Kazakhstan

[Yury Bulka]

I'm getting a 404:(

John Erling Blad  writes:

> Google, Apple, Mozilla move to block Kazakh surveillance system
>
> https://www.reuters.com/article/us-kazakhstan-internet-surveillance/google-apple-mozilla-move-to-block-kazakh-surveillance-system-idUSKCN1VB17Q
> ___
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: 
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and 
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, 
> 


___
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Universal forced HTTPS backdoor in Kazakhstan

[John Erling Blad]

Google, Apple, Mozilla move to block Kazakh surveillance system

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-kazakhstan-internet-surveillance/google-apple-mozilla-move-to-block-kazakh-surveillance-system-idUSKCN1VB17Q
___
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