Re: [WSG] TARGET in 4.01 Strict

[Kim Kruse]

Hi Sedar,

Try this one http://www.tjkdesign.com/articles/popups.asp

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Re: [WSG] TARGET in 4.01 Strict

[Ric Raftis]

Bert Doorn wrote:

The main idea is that one should not open new windows at all, leaving 
it up to the user to decide, which is why the target attribute was 
removed.


G'day Bert,

This always seems to be a subject of some debate.  For commercial sites, 
I ALWAYS open a new blank window on a link.  I do however advise users 
that this will happen and that they only have to close the new window to 
return to "my" site.  From a marketing standpoint, why would you want to 
be showing people the door and then pushing them out into the street?


As I say, only my personal opinion though.

Regards,


Ric

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Re: [WSG] TARGET in 4.01 Strict

[Brian Cummiskey]

Bert Doorn wrote:

The main idea is that one should not open new windows at all, leaving 
it up to the user to decide, which is why the target attribute was 
removed.


But if you want to (or "have to"), either go back to transitional or 
use javascript.  You may find some discussions about it in the mail 
list archives, but the simplest implementation would go along these 
lines:


link 
text



Agreed.  A good example of the JS method is outlined here:
http://www.sitepoint.com/article/standards-compliant-world

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Re: [WSG] just sharing the frustration

[Hope Stewart]

The "Find And Replace" feature in Dreamweaver can also be a huge time saver.
Other programs probably have this same feature. For example:
Replace all: 
With: 
(and remember to add  to the beginning of the first line and  to
the end of the last line.)

Then use the Dreamweaver command "Apply Source Formatting" to make the code
more readable.

It might be safer (and easier), however, to use this feature by first
pasting the text into a blank html page, do all your editing there and then
copy/paste the re-formatted text into your real page. That way you don't run
the risk of accidentally altering code you didn't want altered.

HTH,
Hope Stewart


On 15/2/06 2:59 PM, "Zulema" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Wow! I will remember all this for the next time, since I do a lot of
> Word-to-HTML converting.
> 
> The crazy thing about this one particular Word doc was that it wasn't in
> formatted bulleted lists because it was copy extracted from a PDF we got
> from the client as it seems they didn't have the original copy deck
> anymore I think.


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Re: [WSG] TARGET in 4.01 Strict

[Bert Doorn]

G'day

Serdar Kýlýç wrote:

How does one open a new window with a 4.01 Strict DOCTYPE and have it
be valid? For my weblog I ran the w3 validator and it complained that
there is no attribute called target


The main idea is that one should not open new windows at all, 
leaving it up to the user to decide, which is why the target 
attribute was removed.


But if you want to (or "have to"), either go back to transitional 
or use javascript.  You may find some discussions about it in the 
mail list archives, but the simplest implementation would go 
along these lines:


link 
text


Regards
--
Bert Doorn, Better Web Design
http://www.betterwebdesign.com.au/
Fast-loading, user-friendly websites


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RE: [WSG] TARGET in 4.01 Strict

[Taco Fleur]

Someone correct me if I am wrong, but I believe the only way is
 http://www.pacificfox.com.au"; onclick="window.open( this.href );
return false;">test


Kind regards,
 

Taco Fleur - CEO

Free Call 1800 032 982 or Mobile 0421 851 786
Pacific Fox http://www.pacificfox.com.au an industry leader with commercial
IT experience since 1994 …

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-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Serdar Kiliç
Sent: Wednesday, 15 February 2006 3:46 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: [WSG] TARGET in 4.01 Strict

How does one open a new window with a 4.01 Strict DOCTYPE and have it be
valid? For my weblog I ran the w3 validator and it complained that there is
no attribute called target

--
Cheers,
Serdar Kilic
http://weblog.kilic.net/
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[WSG] TARGET in 4.01 Strict

[Serdar Kılıç]

How does one open a new window with a 4.01 Strict DOCTYPE and have it
be valid? For my weblog I ran the w3 validator and it complained that
there is no attribute called target

--
Cheers,
Serdar Kilic
http://weblog.kilic.net/
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Re: [WSG] just sharing the frustration

[Zulema]

Samuel/Ted/Jay,

Wow! I will remember all this for the next time, since I do a lot of 
Word-to-HTML converting.


The crazy thing about this one particular Word doc was that it wasn't in 
formatted bulleted lists because it was copy extracted from a PDF we got 
from the client as it seems they didn't have the original copy deck 
anymore I think.


Oh well, live and learn. I'm going to find HTMLTidy (which I had but 
lost on hard drive replace last year) and look up HTML-Kit. I do usually 
copy/paste right into the design view in dreamweaver for simple stuff. 
It really does the trick sometimes, if no one's tried it.


The writers here at work only work in Word because of the "Track 
Changes" feature. Makes it easy for everyone to know what's been changed.


Thanks again and hugs to all,
Zulema

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Re: [WSG] just sharing the frustration

[Jay Gilmore]

Ted Drake wrote:

Here's a helpful hint on doing this crap.
Use htmlTidy, while I haven't used this, I've heard it's really good.

Normally, what I do is create a new basic html page in dreamweaver.
I go to the design view and paste the content into the screen.
I then switch to code view and run a few search and replaces to clean it up.
Dreamweaver does a pretty good job of turning word into decent coding.


If people would only use styles in word, i.e. header tags, ul, etc. pasting
into dreamweaver would be a five minute exercise.

Ted



HTML-Kit has a tool to strip extra Word 2000 tags although, I usually 
paste as plain text into HTML-Kit and I have a plugin that converts line 
breaks into   and also can turn text lists into 's or 's. 
It doesn't see nested levels in lists though.


I actually insist that my clients send me copy in plain text documents 
where possible and even then I have to fix all the windows charset 
issues. Damned smart quotes and auto mdashes.


Jay
--
Jay Gilmore
Developer / Consultant
SmashingRed Web & Marketing
P] 902.529.0651
E] [EMAIL PROTECTED]
U] http://www.smashingred.com
B] http://www.smashingred.com/blog
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RE: [WSG] just sharing the frustration

[Ted Drake]

Here's a helpful hint on doing this crap.
Use htmlTidy, while I haven't used this, I've heard it's really good.

Normally, what I do is create a new basic html page in dreamweaver.
I go to the design view and paste the content into the screen.
I then switch to code view and run a few search and replaces to clean it up.
Dreamweaver does a pretty good job of turning word into decent coding.


If people would only use styles in word, i.e. header tags, ul, etc. pasting
into dreamweaver would be a five minute exercise.

Ted


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Zulema
Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2006 6:45 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; WSG List
Subject: [WSG] just sharing the frustration

Hello fellow ponies,

I just wanted to share my frustration with having to work late on
valentine's
day contextualizing copy from a Word doc into html with nested lists
galore[1].
Took me about five hours and I might have missed a few.

[1] http://test.slackbarshinger.com/pei2006/exhibitor/rules_regulations.html

Plus, the web site is far from being completed as I am missing flash
mastheads,
flash nav, and just about all other images which I'm getting Thursday, when
the
web site is due Tuesday (no biggie right?). *sigh* I know everyone's been
through this before and some of you are prolly thinking, "that's nothing!
why
on my /birthday/, I had to"

But anyhow, to everyone: I hug u.

working hard on valentine's day,
Zulema

ps: thankfully I'm walking outta here in half an hour come heck or high
water!
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Re: [WSG] just sharing the frustration

[Samuel Richardson]

Depending on which version of word your running (I'm on 2003) you can 
save a word document as web page, filtered (this then filters out most 
of the word specific HTML), I'm sure a few smart find and replaces could 
then clean up/add any code that is not needed or missing.


Otherwise you could export the document as a regular web page and use 
dreamweavers clean up word HTML function to remove the extra crap. I'm 
not sure how effective it is. In either case, I'm sure you could have 
saved your valentines day?


Samuel


Zulema wrote:

Hello fellow ponies,

I just wanted to share my frustration with having to work late on valentine's
day contextualizing copy from a Word doc into html with nested lists galore[1].
Took me about five hours and I might have missed a few.

[1] http://test.slackbarshinger.com/pei2006/exhibitor/rules_regulations.html

Plus, the web site is far from being completed as I am missing flash mastheads,
flash nav, and just about all other images which I'm getting Thursday, when the
web site is due Tuesday (no biggie right?). *sigh* I know everyone's been
through this before and some of you are prolly thinking, "that's nothing! why
on my /birthday/, I had to"

But anyhow, to everyone: I hug u.

working hard on valentine's day,
Zulema

ps: thankfully I'm walking outta here in half an hour come heck or high water!
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[WSG] just sharing the frustration

[Zulema]

Hello fellow ponies,

I just wanted to share my frustration with having to work late on valentine's
day contextualizing copy from a Word doc into html with nested lists galore[1].
Took me about five hours and I might have missed a few.

[1] http://test.slackbarshinger.com/pei2006/exhibitor/rules_regulations.html

Plus, the web site is far from being completed as I am missing flash mastheads,
flash nav, and just about all other images which I'm getting Thursday, when the
web site is due Tuesday (no biggie right?). *sigh* I know everyone's been
through this before and some of you are prolly thinking, "that's nothing! why
on my /birthday/, I had to"

But anyhow, to everyone: I hug u.

working hard on valentine's day,
Zulema

ps: thankfully I'm walking outta here in half an hour come heck or high water!
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RE: [WSG] new yahoo user interface library

[WINTER-GILES,Ben]

ACE.
 
nuf said.
 
ta heaps.
 
benwg
*while worshipping from his knees*


From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Miles 
TillingerSent: Wednesday, 15 February 2006 12:02To: 
wsg@webstandardsgroup.orgSubject: RE: [WSG] new yahoo user interface 
library

I am in awe!  I'm yet to score a commercial excuse to 
implement an AJAX solution, but I've been playing around with 
scriptaculous and other frameworks.  This offering from Yahoo is just 
amazing and looks to provide yet more functionality.  I'm sure this will be 
appreciated by everyone who is lucky enough to use it!
 
Thanks, Miles. 
 

  
  
  From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ted 
  DrakeSent: Wednesday, 15 February 2006 4:28 AMTo: 
  wsg@webstandardsgroup.orgSubject: [WSG] new yahoo user interface 
  library
  
  
  Hi 
All
  As you may know, Yahoo has been 
  hiring some very talented web developers over the past year, not to mention 
  purchasing great companies like flickr and 
  de.licio.us.
   
  Now, they have opened that wealth 
  of talent to you for free. Yes, I’m pimping my bosses. But seriously, this is 
  really good stuff. They’ve released an open-source platform of standards-based 
  code snippets and best-practices.  Many of these are similar to other 
  projects out there. However, Yahoo has taken the time to make sure they scale 
  to millions of hits and pass privacy scrutiny (now stop typing the 
  China related snickering), I’m 
  talking about making sure there are no memory leaks or possibly passing along 
  less that secure protocols. Further, the library discusses the JSON data 
  transfer protocol.
   
  So, enough of the sales pitch (I 
  had nothing to do with this project.. but I plan on using it!) visit the http://www.yuiblog.com/ yahoo user 
  interface blog and learn how to use these advanced programming techniques. 
  
   
  Ted 
  Drake
  Front-end 
  Engineer
  Yahoo! 
  Tech
   
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RE: [WSG] new yahoo user interface library

[Miles Tillinger]

I am in awe!  I'm yet to score a commercial excuse to 
implement an AJAX solution, but I've been playing around with 
scriptaculous and other frameworks.  This offering from Yahoo is just 
amazing and looks to provide yet more functionality.  I'm sure this will be 
appreciated by everyone who is lucky enough to use it!
 
Thanks, Miles. 
 

  
  
  From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ted 
  DrakeSent: Wednesday, 15 February 2006 4:28 AMTo: 
  wsg@webstandardsgroup.orgSubject: [WSG] new yahoo user interface 
  library
  
  
  Hi 
All
  As you may know, Yahoo has been 
  hiring some very talented web developers over the past year, not to mention 
  purchasing great companies like flickr and 
  de.licio.us.
   
  Now, they have opened that wealth 
  of talent to you for free. Yes, I’m pimping my bosses. But seriously, this is 
  really good stuff. They’ve released an open-source platform of standards-based 
  code snippets and best-practices.  Many of these are similar to other 
  projects out there. However, Yahoo has taken the time to make sure they scale 
  to millions of hits and pass privacy scrutiny (now stop typing the 
  China related snickering), I’m 
  talking about making sure there are no memory leaks or possibly passing along 
  less that secure protocols. Further, the library discusses the JSON data 
  transfer protocol.
   
  So, enough of the sales pitch (I 
  had nothing to do with this project.. but I plan on using it!) visit the http://www.yuiblog.com/ yahoo user 
  interface blog and learn how to use these advanced programming techniques. 
  
   
  Ted 
  Drake
  Front-end 
  Engineer
  Yahoo! 
  Tech
   	
	
	
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RE: [WSG] new yahoo user interface library

[Geoff Pack]

Wow Ted,

This is seriously cool. Haven't looked through it all yet, but I know I'm going 
to be using some of this code. The Graded Browser Support page 
http://developer.yahoo.net/yui/articles/gbs/gbs.html is particularly relevant 
for this forum. 

Thanks,
Geoff




Ted Drake  wrote: 

> Hi All
> As you may know, Yahoo has been hiring some very talented web developers 
> over the past year, not to mention purchasing great companies like flickr 
> and de.licio.us.
 
> Now, they have opened that wealth of talent to you for free. Yes, I'm 
> pimping my bosses. But seriously, this is really good stuff. They've 
> released an open-source platform of standards-based code snippets and 
> best-practices.  Many of these are similar to other projects out there. 
> However, Yahoo has taken the time to make sure they scale to millions 
> of hits and pass privacy scrutiny (now stop typing the China related 
> snickering), I'm talking about making sure there are no memory leaks 
> or possibly passing along less that secure protocols. Further, the 
> library discusses the JSON data transfer protocol.
 
> So, enough of the sales pitch (I had nothing to do with this project.. 
> but I plan on using it!) visit the http://www.yuiblog.com/ yahoo user 
> interface blog and learn how to use these advanced programming 
> techniques. 

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RE: [WSG] JKRowling.com and the militia

[Nic]

 

>  Is added accessibility for people with disabilities such a good thing if
it reduces accessibility for the majority?

Well, I think the issue here is that there is no need to reduce
accessibility for others.  There would have been many other ways to approach
this issue from what I see, which would not have made a significant impact
on the pages.

First, the splash page, which I see as being there to offer access to
different languages, rather than just a choice between
accessible/non-accessible.

Second, why not load *only* the page that is "accessibility enhanced"?  I've
gone through both and there doesn't appear to be a huge difference.  In
fact, the only difference I could find was that one has a few accessibility
"options", the other one doesn't.  It is showing poor Vision to think that
only users with disabilities would benefit from those "options".  I'm sure
there would have been a way to integrate that panel in the design in a way
that would be unobtrusive (though as is, it's not really "that bad").

As for providing a choice to text only version, that could also have been a
small text link at the top of the page, before the flash finishes loading.

So, yeah, making flash pages accessible is difficult, but not impossible.
In this case, you get confronted with many choices before your page loads,
which seem to make it less usable for you, but the problem here is not one
of accessibility, rather, one of how the designer chose to implement the
accessibility of the site.

My 2 cents :)

Nic

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[WSG] new yahoo user interface library

[Ted Drake]

Hi All

As you may know, Yahoo has been hiring some very talented
web developers over the past year, not to mention purchasing great companies
like flickr and de.licio.us.

 

Now, they have opened that wealth of talent to you for free.
Yes, I’m pimping my bosses. But seriously, this is really good stuff.
They’ve released an open-source platform of standards-based code snippets
and best-practices.  Many of these are similar to other projects out
there. However, Yahoo has taken the time to make sure they scale to millions of
hits and pass privacy scrutiny (now stop typing the China related snickering), I’m
talking about making sure there are no memory leaks or possibly passing along
less that secure protocols. Further, the library discusses the JSON data
transfer protocol.

 

So, enough of the sales pitch (I had nothing to do with this
project.. but I plan on using it!) visit the http://www.yuiblog.com/
yahoo user interface blog and learn how to use these advanced programming techniques.


 

Ted Drake

Front-end
Engineer

Yahoo! Tech

 

Re: [WSG] mysterious right margin in IE (of course)

[Vaska]

Woops...a colleague pointed out that I didn't set margin/padding to  
zero on the body.


;)
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Re: [WSG] CSS Holy Gruel

[Al Sparber]

From: "Kevin Ross"


Just wondering, Al... is the Javascript public domain ?



The Equal Height column script is and you can read more about it here:
http://www.projectseven.com/tutorials/css/pvii_columns/index.htm

Also feel free to use and abuse the little min-width expressions in 
the Conditional Comments.


--
Al Sparber
PVII
http://www.projectseven.com

"Designing with CSS is sometimes like barreling down a crumbling 
mountain road at 90 miles per hour secure in the knowledge that 
repairs are scheduled for next Tuesday".







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[WSG] mysterious right margin in IE (of course)

[Vaska]

I can't quite identify where this is coming from. Works just fine in  
other browsers...


IE 5/6 throw a right margin on the entire page...???

http://client.vaska.com/escaut/index8.php

Merci...
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Re: [WSG] CSS Holy Gruel

[Kevin Ross]

Just wondering, Al... is the _javascript_ public domain ?Thx,KROn 2/14/06, Al Sparber <[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:From: "Paul Dwyer" <
[EMAIL PROTECTED]>> Wierd...>> killed half my own post with a bracket  :)>> The rest should read "validates once it is removed".much appreciated :-)
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[WSG] JKRowling.com and the militia

[Stephen Stagg]

so I visited the JKRowling site a while ago and was impressed by the  
design of the new site, easy and fun to use.


Later, I read some comments on this site about Lightmaker and the  
worth of their accessibility methods (or suggested lack thereof)


Recently I re-visited the site and had some difficulty getting on to  
it.  I assume that in response to requests from the accessibility  
party, they have re-designed the site to be more accessible and that  
is a good thing.


However.  Before, visiting jkrowling.com immediately brought up the  
content of the site and the average user could 'get going' immediately.


Now, it presents you with an introduction page full of buttons with  
different languages and accessibility levels.  The most prominent  
button is that for the accessibility-enhanced page.  Don't get me  
wrong, It's GOOD that they are promoting their accessibility mode,  
but still >90% of users visiting the site will not want this mode,  
why make it the default option.  Is added accessibility for people  
with disabilities such a good thing if it reduces accessibility for  
the majority?


Stephen.
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RE: [WSG] Re: Web design education

[Chris Taylor]

Drew Whitworth said:

It does strike me though that the best response of the original poster
might have been a polite e-mail to me about it (which to be fair some
other posters did do) rather than ranting on a private list about how
terrible it all is. All the latter does is exacerbate the appearance of
WSG and similar fora as being cliquey. But that is by the by. The
feedback has been noted. 

==

Drew, I am sorry that the nature of my original post came across in such
an arrogant and ranty manner. That was not my attention, and I unfairly
picked on your documentation rather than widening my rant to all
organisations unwilling to move with the times - and that's not just
academia, but commerce, industry and business in general.

However I'm glad the the post started such an interesting discussion,
and I hope that in the future a) the good things that are happening will
continue to happen and b) I will learn to keep my big gob shut :0)

Regards

Chris Taylor
www.stillbreathing.co.uk

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RE: [WSG] Web design education

[Chris Taylor]

Wow, I seem to have kicked off quite a ruckus. From what has been said I
believe the situation isn't as bad as I thought, certainly no worse than
in business/industry. There is still a long way to go, but we're getting
there.

So, points to note:

1) Syllabus documents may be out of date, or just not quite in line with
what's actually being taught. Lesson: don't believe everything you read,
and believe the best until proven otherwise.

2) Some educators are resistant to change, just as some finance
directors/marketing departments/project managers are. Lesson: You can
lead a horse to water...

3) Many academic institutions are teaching and advocating web standards
to their students. Lesson: use the people doing it right as examples,
maybe a "how web standards has improved our web design course" document
would be useful.

And some things that I've been mulling over for quite a while. Is there
an international web design accreditation scheme, or some "web master
driving licence"? Is that one of the aims of a web designers
association/guild? And finally, what associations/guilds are you part
of? http://www.hwg.org/, http://www.gawds.org/, http://www.iwanet.org/,
and http://www.ukwda.org/ are the ones I'm aware of (there are others,
I'm sure).

thanks

Chris
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[WSG] Accessites.org Launches: Good-bye Accessible Site Stereotypes

[Mike at Green-Beast.com]

(Some of you may be interested in this. If cross-post, please forgive -Mike)


Accessites.org Launches: Good-bye Accessible Site Stereotypes

One of the most challenging marriages is that of accessibility with style. 
Some erroneously think in general terms that the two are in complete 
opposition; meaning that an accessible site needs to be low-key and bland, 
and that a highly-styled site can't very well be that accessible. This false 
belief is echoed mostly by the mainstream development community. Those who 
really know web accessibility know that the marriage, while not necessarily 
simple, is certainly possible. And very worthwhile if done right as it 
combines the best of both worlds and has the highest general appeal.


The "Team Access" members at the newly-launched Accessites.org are on a 
mission. They're trying to change this thinking and push web accessibility 
into the mainstream by showcasing accessible websites that have managed to 
shrug off the "I'm accessible" look. For those that manage this, they will 
be rewarded with an iconic pat-on-the-back and a permanent salute honoring 
them for their achievement. But it goes a little deeper than that.


Unlike many "awards" organisations, Accessites.org has very strict criteria 
for submissions that is in itself a development benchmark worth reaching… 
then the grading begins. The Accessites grading checklist is transparent so 
everyone knows what is expected and what will be looked at. And due to the 
needs of mainstream developers and webmasters in general, many other facets 
of proper development will be considered as well: usability, search engine 
optimization, universality, standards compliance, the works. It all goes 
hand-in-hand in the real world.


To the general public design carries great importance. Being as such, beauty 
in design is as nearly as important as basic accessibility. And it is with 
the general public that accessibility must begin. Do you have a site or know 
of one that shatters the accessible-is-boring stereotype? If so, Team Access 
wants to see it. Please take a moment, read the criteria, and submit the 
perfect site.


http://accessites.org/ 


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Re: [WSG] Target sued over non-accessible site

[Drew Trusz]

> Legally courts can and will regulate companies. It's been happening
> for years! We tell them the required minimum wage, the maximum working
> hours, we regulate overtime, we tell them to put wheelchair ramps in
> front of their doors, we zone their buildings, we make them get
> permits, we do health inspections, etc. etc. etc. We have all these
> laws in place to protect people. People are guaranteed freedom, not
> companies.
>
> No, the courts cannot force me to make my website accessible, but they
> can force Target Inc. Co. TM (R) to make their website accessible,
> just like they can force Target to do a lot of other things, because
> Target is not a person. It is a seperate entity. It is subject to the
> rule of the courts. And hopefully the courts are interpreting the laws
> correctly and deciding what the people want, in applying it to their
> decisions. I know it gets sketchy after that, but that is how things
> are supposed to work.
>
> We need to stop arguing with each other about the legal basis of this
> case and just wait and see whether or not the courts will apply the
> ADA to this website. It's that simple, and hopefully we can now get to
> what we should be discussing here, that is, the technical reasons why
> Target.com is not accessible and identifying other company websites
> that are also making the same mistakes. That's all.
>

Courts adjudicate, not regulate. Regulation is a legislative function
in the United State. Courts can and do discerne previously unkown
rights. But it is the legislative branch which sets limits on the
exercise of those rights with the court's subsequent agreement.

And since Santa Clara County vs Southern Pacific in 1886, corporations
have been granted personhood in the United States. In some senses
then, this is a question of balancing competing personal rights.

Drew
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[WSG] Re: Web design education

[Drew Whitworth]

So here I am

With regard to the recent rant about my teaching materials: 

Most of the material on that site dates from 2003. It was due to be revised 
last summer but I left for a new job. If the new incumbent has not yet changed 
it, there's not much that I can do about it. I still have a version of that 
material which I use in a different way in my new job, but when it does get 
used (as reference rather than direct teaching), I do point out to students 
that some of it is out of date. Had I completed the revision in 2005 it would 
certainly have included CSS positioning and de-emphasised the use of tables for 
layout. 

Students were told in a different lesson about the need to ensure that tables 
linearise and are accessible to different browser types, screenreaders etc. 
Their grading system reflected this. 

The course was designed to be taken by non-specialists. It was made clear to 
students that at the end of the course, those who had been grabbed by the 
subject would need to look more deeply into issues such as accessibility and 
emerging technologies such as CSS positioning before they could consider 
themselves "web designers". 

Maybe in the eyes of some the above is just a set of excuses for what you 
consider a big crime against accessibility, but one of the things I always did 
was encourage feedback - that is precisely why the material was publicly 
accessible and not restricted access - though as you have proved this also 
opens up the material to criticism from those who may know more about it than 
me (like many junior academics I am - or was at the time this course was 
created - obliged to teach in subjects which are not my specialism). It does 
strike me though that the best response of the original poster might have been 
a polite e-mail to me about it (which to be fair some other posters did do) 
rather than ranting on a private list about how terrible it all is. All the 
latter does is exacerbate the appearance of WSG and similar fora as being 
cliquey. But that is by the by. The feedback has been noted. 

i would also support the other recent post regarding the great difficulty of 
persuading IT administrators to accept the need for alternative technologies. 
For a time in 2003-4 ONLY IE was available to students until Mozilla was 
grudgingly added in 2004. The situation in my new job in Manchester is 
slightly, but not much, better. Anyway, that is another topic. 

Thanks, 
Drew

--
Dr. Drew Whitworth, School of Education, University of Manchester
"ID cards 'protect you from the flu'" - UK Government (possibly)

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RE: [WSG] CSS Holy Gruel

[kvnmcwebn]

Hi Al,

nice layout, future proof and all,
The only bummer is that it sets off my i.e content blocker.
-looked at the javascript and my vision got blurry. 
Is there anything to look out for when playing with the column widths? 

-thanks
kvnmcwebn

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Re: [WSG] Web design education

[Ric Raftis]

Your comments reminded me that I had neglected to mention something else 
regarding my TAFE experiences.  Perhaps I should mention that I am 50 
years of age and attended as a mature age student and not someone out of 
high school, however despite all amounts of agitating and lobbying, the 
Bendigo TAFE refused to provide access to Firefox or Opera or any other 
browser apart from IE.  That was the only browser that you could use to 
access the outside world.  You couldn't install or run your own versions 
locally, so consequently Firefox and the Web Developer Extension were 
not available to test your sites or ensure that code was valid.


Maybe this will change in the future, but it has to come from the top.  
The thing that I found most amazing was that the IT people in charge of 
the networks had the say over the people delivering the courses.  It was 
actually the network administrators that stymied the efforts of the 
lecturers by denying access to better browsers and tools.  You would 
have thought that IT professionals would be far more aware of the 
benefits of using compliant browsers and be implementing these in our 
educational institutions.


Regards,

Ric

Michael Nelson wrote:


Ric Raftis wrote:

It was interesting reading your post James because it seems that
TAFEs across the country may vary widely despite courses
supposedly being drawn from a national based syllabus and
providing national accreditation. 



Related to this, I reckon one of the biggest problems causing a lack 
of standards in Web design education is a lack of collaboration. Each 
facilitator/lecturor is re-inventing the wheel with activities and 
resources largely due to IP restrictions within their workplace. In 
reality, many facilitators just end up re-using the same resources 
that's been used for the last 5 years because on their own they don't 
have time to update both their own skills and the resources they use.


The ironic thing is that (nearly) all the best info on Web Design 
topics is being shared freely by professional designers on their 
blogs/sites! ... I mean, with excellent sites like 
http://webdesignfromscratch.com/ and http://maxdesign.com.au/ 
published by professionals, what is the role of an educator?


My take is that if lecturors and facilitators were able to 
collaboratively create and update flexible learning pathways from all 
the great free stuff out there, we'd be in a better position to help 
the uptake of standards in Web design education.


(Plug) : 'cause of this, I've started setting up a WebDesign Wikibook 
over at:
http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Web_Design 

 
Really it's just ordering and grouping all the great resources out 
there created by you professionals into some sort of learning pathway 
with ideas for activities... Feel free to contribute :)


--
Michael Nelson
http://liveandletlearn.net/ 



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