Re: [WSG] Screen reader recommendations???

[Mark Harris]

Patrick H. Lauke wrote:

Mark Harris wrote:

 but quality testing can only come from one
familiar with the tools.


If you allow me to coin a phrase: "quality testing can only come from 
quality testers" (where, in case it doesn't translate too well from UK 
parlance, the second "quality" there is used as an adjective, as in 
"very good testers")


Good phrase, and it's okay - I'm from NZ where we do still speak English ;-)

mark
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Re: [WSG] Screen reader recommendations???

[Patrick H. Lauke]

Mark Harris wrote:

 but quality testing can only come from one
familiar with the tools.


If you allow me to coin a phrase: "quality testing can only come from 
quality testers" (where, in case it doesn't translate too well from UK 
parlance, the second "quality" there is used as an adjective, as in 
"very good testers")


Right, definitely need some sleep now.

P
--
Patrick H. Lauke
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Re: [WSG] Screen reader recommendations???

[Ben Buchanan]

> At a Web Standards Group meeting in Wellington last year, Jonathan Mosen
> used his screen reader to show developers what blind users were 'seeing'
> on their pages. It ripped through the pages almost too fast for most of
> the audience to hear but they were stunned when Jonathan said he'd
> slowed it down to about 1/3 normal speed for the demonstration!

The high speed is a bit surprising, isn't it :) I was also amazed to
watch a screen zoom user blasting through pages - I'm a sloth in
comparison.

He would rocket through navigation and make decisions on the next
click almost before I'd been able to read what he was up to, then on
to the next page... admittedly he was familiar with the overall site,
but even so it was kind of impressive.

I think people have a mental image of assistive tech users dragging
through sites at a painfully slow pace, but that hasn't been the
reality that I've seen (not that I have observed a huge number of
assistive tech users or anything, though).

Ben

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--- The future has arrived; it's just not
--- evenly distributed. - William Gibson
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Re: [WSG] Screen reader recommendations???

[Mark Harris]

Patrick H. Lauke wrote:

It's probably worth mentioning that unless you invest a considerable 
amount of time becoming familiar with a screen reader, and use it just 
as a *real* screen reader user uses it, any testing may lead you to the 
wrong type of conclusion, or worse tempt you to "optimise" your pages to 
please a specific reader (akin to coding to a specific browser).




Exactly. That's why I recommend to clients that they farm out this sort 
of testing to specialist houses who employ blind, deaf, palsied and 
otherwise 'not ordinary' users who are familiar with their assistive 
technologies. To be fair, I usually have a look with Fangs first to spot 
any egregious errors, but quality testing can only come from one 
familiar with the tools.


At a Web Standards Group meeting in Wellington last year, Jonathan Mosen 
used his screen reader to show developers what blind users were 'seeing' 
on their pages. It ripped through the pages almost too fast for most of 
the audience to hear but they were stunned when Jonathan said he'd 
slowed it down to about 1/3 normal speed for the demonstration!


cheers

Mark
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Re: [WSG] Screen reader recommendations???

[Patrick H. Lauke]

Michael Yeaney wrote:
Are there any recommendations for screen readers to test with  I'd 
like to at least 'preview' what our site(s) sound like to such a user.


It's probably worth mentioning that unless you invest a considerable 
amount of time becoming familiar with a screen reader, and use it just 
as a *real* screen reader user uses it, any testing may lead you to the 
wrong type of conclusion, or worse tempt you to "optimise" your pages to 
please a specific reader (akin to coding to a specific browser).


An amusing anecdote I usually recount: a well intentioned, but rather 
clueless colleague of mine once sat down to test her site with JAWS. A 
few days later she suggested to me that it may be worth splitting up all 
her pages into really short, bite-size pages with "next" links, as she 
was appalled at the fact that, once she loaded a page, JAWS would take 
almost a minute to read the whole page top to bottom. I had to point out 
that, under normal circumstances, users of screen readers will not just 
load a page, sit back, and listen to the entire thing in one go...that 
the use of screen readers is an interactive process and that they'd 
employ various techniques like getting an overview of structure 
(headings list etc), jump between paragraphs, backtrack, 
increase/decrease reading speed, and so forth. Moral of the story: had I 
not explained this to her, she would have (with the best intentions, of 
course) completely ripped her site apart in an effort to make it "more 
accessible". An extreme example, but worth keeping in mind...


P
--
Patrick H. Lauke
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re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively
[latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.]
www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk
http://redux.deviantart.com
__
Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force
http://webstandards.org/
__
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RE: [WSG] Screen reader recommendations???

[Jon Gunderson]

There is also the Mozilla/Firefox accessibility extension that
provides features for testing web resources for functional
accessibility, including headers, links, form labels, frame
labels, and table headers.  Styling features to disable layout
tables, disabling CSS styling and high contrast tyle sheet. 
Accessing the ALT text for images.

http://cita.disability.uiuc.edu/software/mozilla/

Jon


 Original message 
>Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2006 10:05:20 -0500
>From: "Berman, Pamela E" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>  
>Subject: RE: [WSG] Screen reader recommendations???  
>To: 
>
>
>There is also Fire Vox, a free screen reader extension created by
>Charles L. Chen for Firefox. It allows you to navigate from
the headings
>list, links list, etc. which can give you a better
understanding for how
>some screen readers operate apart from just reading the screen.
>https://webspace.utexas.edu/chencl1/clc-4-tts/index.html
>
>
>Also, Kurzweil 3000 http://www.kurzweiledu.com/products.asp
is becoming
>popular among users with cognitive and learning disabilities.
>
>
>Pam Berman
>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
>> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mike at 
>> Green-Beast.com
>> Sent: Tuesday, February 28, 2006 9:19 AM
>> To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
>> Subject: Re: [WSG] Screen reader recommendations???
>> 
>> Hello Michael,
>> 
>> Try the Opera 8.5 browser [1]. Sounds very much like the 
>> stand-alone products and it's very simple and convenient to 
>> use. Great test tool.
>> 
>>  [1] http://www.opera.com/
>> 
>> Sincerely,
>> Mike Cherim
>> http://green-beast.com/
>> http://accessites.org/
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> - Original Message -
>> From: "Michael Yeaney" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> To: 
>> Sent: Tuesday, February 28, 2006 8:52 AM
>> Subject: [WSG] Screen reader recommendations???
>> 
>> 
>> Are there any recommendations for screen readers to test 
>> with  I'd like
>> to at least 'preview' what our site(s) sound like to such a
user.
>> 
>> Thanx...
>> Mike
>> 
>> **
>> The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/
>> 
>>  See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
>>  for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
>> **
>> 
>> 
>**
>The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/
>
> See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
> for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
>**
>


Jon Gunderson, Ph.D.
Director of IT Accessibility Services
Campus Information Technologies and Educational Services (CITES)
and 
Coordinator of Assistive Communication and Information Technology
Disability Resources and Education Services (DRES)

Voice: (217) 244-5870
Fax: (217) 333-0248
Cell: (217) 714-6313

E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

WWW: http://cita.rehab.uiuc.edu/
WWW: https://netfiles.uiuc.edu/jongund/www/


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RE: [WSG] Screen reader recommendations???

[Berman, Pamela E]

There is also Fire Vox, a free screen reader extension created by
Charles L. Chen for Firefox. It allows you to navigate from the headings
list, links list, etc. which can give you a better understanding for how
some screen readers operate apart from just reading the screen.
https://webspace.utexas.edu/chencl1/clc-4-tts/index.html


Also, Kurzweil 3000 http://www.kurzweiledu.com/products.asp is becoming
popular among users with cognitive and learning disabilities.


Pam Berman

> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mike at 
> Green-Beast.com
> Sent: Tuesday, February 28, 2006 9:19 AM
> To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
> Subject: Re: [WSG] Screen reader recommendations???
> 
> Hello Michael,
> 
> Try the Opera 8.5 browser [1]. Sounds very much like the 
> stand-alone products and it's very simple and convenient to 
> use. Great test tool.
> 
>  [1] http://www.opera.com/
> 
> Sincerely,
> Mike Cherim
> http://green-beast.com/
> http://accessites.org/
> 
> 
> 
> - Original Message -
> From: "Michael Yeaney" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: 
> Sent: Tuesday, February 28, 2006 8:52 AM
> Subject: [WSG] Screen reader recommendations???
> 
> 
> Are there any recommendations for screen readers to test 
> with  I'd like
> to at least 'preview' what our site(s) sound like to such a user.
> 
> Thanx...
> Mike
> 
> **
> The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/
> 
>  See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
>  for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
> **
> 
> 
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Re: [WSG] Screen reader recommendations???

[Ian Anderson]

Michael Yeaney wrote:
Are there any recommendations for screen readers to test with  I'd 
like to at least 'preview' what our site(s) sound like to such a user.


I don't know what country you're in, but in the UK, "HAL" from Dolphin 
is very popular. It's very similar to JAWS but a lot, lot cheaper.

http://www.dolphinuk.co.uk/

JAWS and Window-Eyes are the world leaders, though WE is probably the 
third most-used screen reader in the UK, behind HAL and JAWS.


IBM Home Page Reader is actually the easiest for doing testing in, but 
it isn't a true screen reader and there are sometimes important 
differences in the way things are read. Very few people use this in real 
life compared to the others.


JAWS is by far the most common one - the IE of the screen reader world

HTH

Cheers

Ian



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Re: [WSG] Screen reader recommendations???

[Mike at Green-Beast.com]

Hello Michael,

Try the Opera 8.5 browser [1]. Sounds very much like the stand-alone 
products and it's very simple and convenient to use. Great test tool.

 [1] http://www.opera.com/

Sincerely,
Mike Cherim
http://green-beast.com/
http://accessites.org/



- Original Message - 
From: "Michael Yeaney" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Tuesday, February 28, 2006 8:52 AM
Subject: [WSG] Screen reader recommendations???


Are there any recommendations for screen readers to test with  I'd like
to at least 'preview' what our site(s) sound like to such a user.

Thanx...
Mike

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 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
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Re: [WSG] Screen reader recommendations???

[Jon Gunderson]

The main screen readers in the United States are:

GW-Micro Windoweyes ($795)
http://www.gwmicro.com/

JAWS for Windows ($1,395)
http://www.freedomscientific.com/fs_products/software_jaws.asp

These have demo versions that run for 40 minutes and then you
need to reboot your computer, if you want to try before you
purchase.

For developer testing in speech there is "IBM Home Page Reader
" is very affordable at $150.
http://www-306.ibm.com/able/


 Original message 
>Date: Tue, 28 Feb 2006 08:52:10 -0500
>From: "Michael Yeaney" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>  
>Subject: [WSG] Screen reader recommendations???  
>To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
>
>   Are there any recommendations for screen readers to
>   test with  I'd like to at least 'preview' what
>   our site(s) sound like to such a user.
>
>   Thanx...
>   Mike


Jon Gunderson, Ph.D.
Director of IT Accessibility Services
Campus Information Technologies and Educational Services (CITES)
and 
Coordinator of Assistive Communication and Information Technology
Disability Resources and Education Services (DRES)

Voice: (217) 244-5870
Fax: (217) 333-0248
Cell: (217) 714-6313

E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

WWW: http://cita.rehab.uiuc.edu/
WWW: https://netfiles.uiuc.edu/jongund/www/


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 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
 for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
**

[WSG] Screen reader recommendations???

[Michael Yeaney]

Are there any recommendations for screen readers to test with  I'd like to at least 'preview' what our site(s) sound like to such a user.Thanx...Mike