Re: [WSG] CSS 3 color module and deprecation of "system" colors

[Robin Berjon]

Rowan Lewis wrote:
Sure no browsers support the appearance property, or most of CSS3 for 
that matter, but thats fine as its not even complete yet. There really 
is no point in keeping the system colours if when CSS3 is ready all 
browsers will support the appearance property.


The appearance property can have its nice uses, but it's limited by the 
collective imagination of the CSS WG. If you want to make your own 
widget that's not in the list, at least with system colours you can get 
something reasonably close (and stick to the user's settings, inclusing 
for instance high contrast).


If it's not broken don't deprecate it.

--
Robin Berjon
  Senior Research Scientist
  Expway, http://expway.com/


**
The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/

See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
**

RE: [WSG] An accessible and semantic date picker calendar?

[Mike Foskett]

Hi all,

I've just developed a date picker calendar for use on an intranet.

http://www.websemantics.co.uk/tutorials/accessible_date_picker_calendar/

Could someone give it a once over and check it semantically and for 
accessibility please?

Cheers

mike 2k:)2
  webSemantics  
<>

[WSG] Expanding height of left column to fill space

[Stevio]

What is the best way to expand a left floated navigation column to fill up 
the height of the available space? This column has a different colour, but 
the right column will usually be bigger.


Is the best way still to use background image, or does anyone have a better 
way of doing it?


Thanks,
Stephen 




--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.10.18/90 - Release Date: 05/09/2005

**
The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/

See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
**

[WSG] Web site advertisements

[Angus at InfoForce Services]

I do not know if this is off topic. If it is, please reply to 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] I run an international nonprofit that has a 
number of retailers that willdonate a portion of the sale made through a web 
site made to track sales for our cause. I hate tabbing through a number of 
links just to get to the main content; so I do not use skip to  links. What 
would be the most accessible way to make these ads more visible? Any other 
suggestions are welcome.


HTML: http://www.choroideremia.org

CSS: http://www.choroideremia.org/css/crf_css1.css

Angus MacKinnon
MacKinnon Crest Saying
Latin -  Audentes Fortuna Juvat
English - Fortune Assists The Daring
Choroideremia Research Foundation Inc. 2nd Vice president
Choroideremia Research Foundation Canada Inc. 1st Vice President
http://www.choroideremia.org

**
The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/

See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
**

Re: [WSG] Expanding height of left column to fill space

[Kenny Graham]

As far as I know, background images are still the only way.
It's probably possible with _javascript_, but even if it is, I wouldn't
want to put presentation in the behavioral layer. CSS should really
really get some vertical formatting, and soon. Is the best way still to use background image, or does anyone have a better
way of doing it?

Re: [WSG] Expanding height of left column to fill space

[Clive Walker]

What is the best way to expand a left floated navigation column to fill up
the height of the available space? This column has a different colour, but 
the right column will usually be bigger.


Is the best way still to use background image, or does anyone have a 
better way of doing it?


Thanks,
Stephen


How about negative margins? I think it may do what you want but I have not 
tested this particular example:


http://www.alistapart.com/articles/negativemargins/


Clive Walker


CVW Web Design
http://www.cvwdesign.co.uk/




**
The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/

See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
**

Re: [WSG] Expanding height of left column to fill space

[David Laakso]

Clive Walker wrote:



What is the best way to expand a left floated navigation column to 
fill up
the height of the available space? This column has a different 
colour, but the right column will usually be bigger.


Is the best way still to use background image, or does anyone have a 
better way of doing it?


Thanks,
Stephen



How about negative margins? I think it may do what you want but I have 
not tested this particular example:


http://www.alistapart.com/articles/negativemargins/


Clive Walker



FWIW, the 'negative margins' layout referenced above 
 uses 
background-images to create faux columns.

Regards,
David Laakso
**
The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/

See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
**

Re: [WSG] Expanding height of left column to fill space

[Gunlaug Sørtun]

Stevio wrote:

What is the best way to expand a left floated navigation column to
fill up the height of the available space? This column has a
different colour, but the right column will usually be bigger.

Is the best way still to use background image, or does anyone have a
 better way of doing it?


Don't know about better, but this 'overworked negative margin' design[1]
use border-color to fake background on side-columns. Can be made much
simpler, of course. Just make sure the floated navigation has the same
background-color, so it survives if accessibility mode overrides border
and background color.

regard
Georg

[1]http://www.gunlaug.no/contents/molly_1.html
--
http://www.gunlaug.no
**
The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/

See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
**

Re: [WSG] Expanding height of left column to fill space

[Clive Walker]

Clive Walker wrote:



What is the best way to expand a left floated navigation column to fill 
up
the height of the available space? This column has a different colour, 
but the right column will usually be bigger.


Is the best way still to use background image, or does anyone have a 
better way of doing it?


Thanks,
Stephen



How about negative margins? I think it may do what you want but I have 
not tested this particular example:


http://www.alistapart.com/articles/negativemargins/


Clive Walker



FWIW, the 'negative margins' layout referenced above 
 uses 
background-images to create faux columns.

Regards,
David Laakso


Should have realised but it's a while since I looked at the ALA method. I 
tend to use negative margins without background images myself but the method 
I use "breaks" on some pages when text sizes are made v small by the user. 
That's not a major problem for me but you may need something better.


Clive Walker


CVW Web Design
http://www.cvwdesign.co.uk/ 



**
The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/

See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
**

Re: [WSG] Expanding height of left column to fill space

[Vicki Berry]

Stevio wrote:
> What is the best way to expand a left floated navigation column to 
> fill up the height of the available space?

I really like this script from Project Seven, which also keeps the footer at 
the bottom of the viewport:



Like all PVII offerings, it works in all modern browsers.

HTH,

-- 
Vicki Berry
DistinctiveWeb
Web: http://www.distinctiveweb.com.au
Blog: http://www.unheardword.com
**
The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/

 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
 for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
**

Re: [WSG] font-family-> "system" value

[Julián Landerreche]

Felix Miata wrote:


In control panel open the fonts folder and double click 8514SYS.FON. I
think that's what you are looking at, AFAIK included with all doze
versions back at least as far as Win95.
 

The weird thing is that I dont have any 8514SYS.FON in my font folder, 
nor any "system.ttf" nor similar font. I have checked all the fonts in 
Fonts folder but there is no one that looks as the "system" font... 
System font appears in my Character Map!!

A mistery.


http://members.ij.net/mrmazda/auth/Font/font-system.html

The font used in the URL that you gave me is the one I want to use. I 
have checked the CSS of that page. The rule is:


body{
   font-family: system;
}

I will use the same rule, but with some alternative fonts... and then I 
will check it out in all possible systems.


Thanks Felix.
And excuse my poor english
JL
**
The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/

See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
**

Re: [WSG] Expanding height of left column to fill space

[Stevio]

From: "Vicki Berry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Stevio wrote:

What is the best way to expand a left floated navigation column to
fill up the height of the available space?


I really like this script from Project Seven, which also keeps the footer
at the bottom of the viewport:



Like all PVII offerings, it works in all modern browsers.


Sometimes I think that somewhere along the way, things have become back to
front.

Let me offer a few quotes from the article Vicki gave the link for:

"If you create a 2-column table, and color one column red, and the other
blue, both columns will extend the full table height - regardless of the
content in either column." - a common design requirement.

"To Hack or to Script, that is the question" - in reference to using CSS for 
columns.


"If you want to lay out your page without tables and still have equal-height
columns, then you can use CSS hacks or Javascript."

The article gives some arguments against using tables (usual one of 
separating structure from presentation), when logic would suggest from the 
above quotes that using tables would make a lot of sense. Can someone give 
me a good real life example however, of when using a simple 2 column table 
with 1 row would actually cause anyone any problems?


What is wrong with using a simple 1 row 2 column table to layout a web page
when using DIVs and CSS requires hacks and JavaScript to work in the way
required?

Why is using CSS in this case the better of two evils? Surely we are abusing 
CSS in just the same way we are abusing tables?


Please remind me as I find myself wasting so much time with CSS design hacks 
when table design is so much quicker. I have been doing CSS and XHTML for a 
while too before you ask! I'm sure other people constantly have to look 
about to find the right hack for the particular problem they are facing.


Thanks,
Stephen 




--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.10.18/90 - Release Date: 05/09/2005

**
The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/

See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
**

Re: [WSG] Expanding height of left column to fill space

[Vicki Berry]

Stevio wrote:
> What is wrong with using a simple 1 row 2 column table to layout a web page
> when using DIVs and CSS requires hacks and JavaScript to work in the way
> required?
> 
> Why is using CSS in this case the better of two evils? Surely we are 
> abusing CSS in just the same way we are abusing tables?
> 
> Please remind me as I find myself wasting so much time with CSS 
> design hacks when table design is so much quicker. I have been doing 
> CSS and XHTML for a while too before you ask! I'm sure other people 
> constantly have to look about to find the right hack for the 
> particular problem they are facing.

Hi Stephen,

I know what you are saying but there are hacks and then there are hacks! 
Personally, I prefer to have clean, semantic mark-up and use Conditional 
Comments to achieve what I want in Win/IE - because I know when I do that, my 
mark-up remains structurally correct and it won't matter what future versions 
of Win/IE do or don't do. Hacks in the actual style-sheet I'm more wary of, 
because we don't know how future versions of the browsers will read them.

I code *much* faster using clean XHTML and CSS than with tables - but to each 
their own. Tables are still allowed for those that prefer them. Regardless, I 
feel that good structural mark-up is enough of an advantage over table-based 
layouts that I don't mind at all using the odd CC to make a div-based layout 
work in Win/IE.

Regarding Javascript - why do you see that as being a problem? There's nothing 
wrong with Javascript that I can see, as long as the site "degrades gracefully" 
without it.

But to each their own.  :-)

Vicki.  :-)

-- 
Vicki Berry
DistinctiveWeb
Web: http://www.distinctiveweb.com.au
Blog: http://www.unheardword.com
**
The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/

 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
 for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
**

Re: [WSG] font-family-> "system" value

[Felix Miata]

Julián Landerreche wrote:
 
> The weird thing is that I dont have any 8514SYS.FON in my font folder,
> nor any "system.ttf" nor similar font. I have checked all the fonts in
> Fonts folder but there is no one that looks as the "system" font...
> System font appears in my Character Map!!
> A mistery.

No mystery. Set your fonts folder view to "show hidden files". It's
there somewhere, or you wouldn't see it in character map or my URL.
-- 
"Cast your cares on the Lord and He will sustain you."
Psalm 55:22 NIV

 Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409

Felix Miata  ***  http://members.ij.net/mrmazda/auth/

**
The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/

 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
 for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
**

Re: [WSG] Expanding height of left column to fill space

[Terrence Wood]

Stevio said:
> What is wrong with using a simple 1 row 2 column table to layout a web
> page when using DIVs and CSS requires hacks and JavaScript to work in
> the way required?
>
> Why is using CSS in this case the better of two evils? Surely we are
> abusing CSS in just the same way we are abusing tables?


The only reason CSS is being 'abused' is that we have created an
expectation of how a design will *visually* render in a browser. This
expectation is informed by, and table-based layouts rely upon, our
understanding of real world media such as magazines and newspapers.

Table's used for layout purposes only make sense in the visual dimension
of the design, but may impact upon the meaning of the content. The
advantage of putting 'hacks' in the CSS layer is that generally they do
not affect the meaning of the content.

The whole concept of using tables for layout is flawed for a number of
reasons. It makes assumptions about the type of device being used to
render the page, the abilities of the person viewing it, adds unneccessary
weight to the design, is harder to update, and directly interferes with
the content.

I disagree with your point about CSS based layouts taking longer than
table based ones, although I concede that there is a steep learning curve
when making the transition from tables-based layout. It's not that CSS is
hard, it's that the implementation is buggy in a lot of browsers. There is
a lot of knowledge to acquire in order to successfully implement a design
where content, presentation and behavior are seperated.

To answer your question: Tables are for tabular data. period. Using them
for layout is a bit like making up everything in  tags.


kind regards
Terrence Wood.




**
The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/

 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
 for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
**

Re: [WSG] Expanding height of left column to fill space

[Bert Doorn]

G'day

we have created an expectation of how a design will *visually* render 
in a browser. 

Quick reality check  What do most people use when visiting a 
website?  What do clients who pay the bill want?


The whole concept of using tables for layout is flawed 
...

adds unneccessary weight to the design

On those sites that use tables nested to the nth degree you're 
absolutely right.  But a simple 1 row, two (or three or ...  column 
table with solid background colours (via CSS) is likely a lot lighter 
than multiple divs, background images, hacks, conditional comments,  
javascript etc.


It's not that CSS is hard, it's that the implementation is buggy in a lot of browsers. 

And since we live in the real world, where real people use those buggy 
browsers, we do what works best.  Sometimes that means a table.   I 
agree tables SHOULD not be used for layout but it's not a crime to use 
one occasionally especially if the non table approach "adds unnecessary 
weight to the design".


Regards 
--

Bert Doorn, Better Web Design
http://www.betterwebdesign.com.au/
Fast-loading, user-friendly websites 



**
The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/

See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
**

Re: [WSG] Expanding height of left column to fill space

[Terrence Wood]

Bert Doorn said:
> Quick reality check  What do most people use when visiting a
> website?  What do clients who pay the bill want?

Once upon a time it was NN4, now it's IE6, and tomorrow who knows? And
that's the point of designing to web standards. As for what the client
wants, I say it's two of: good, fast, cheap.

However, I doubt very much that the big driver is the visual design Bert,
and I doubt most people visiting or commissioning a web site give two
hoots as to how its built. Most people want to provide, or gain easy
access to, content that is *supported* by a visual design that
communicates values that are important to them and makes the site easy to
use.

For the record, the people paying my bills *do* want standards based
design - I'm working in e-govt - and they want content that is usable by
people, and *easily* manipulated by machines.

To refine my point a little: web sites look the way that they do is
because we design them like that for no other reason than they are
familiar (with real world things, and web designs from the past 10 years
or so). Nothing wrong with that. But, given we've moved on a little bit
from last century, isn't it about time our designs did too?

If a 2 column CSS layout with a band of color down one side is difficult
to implement with todays technology, shouldn't we instead look for designs
that work with the technology we are using?

> On those sites that use tables nested to the nth degree you're
> absolutely right.  But a simple 1 row, two (or three or ...  column
> table with solid background colours (via CSS) is likely a lot lighter
> than multiple divs, background images, hacks, conditional comments,
> javascript etc.
>
yes, it's true you can make your CSS and JS files unneccessarily huge, but
setting a background on one or two div's *still* uses less code than the
equivalent markup for tables.

> And since we live in the real world, where real people use those buggy
> browsers, we do what works best.  Sometimes that means a table.   I
> agree tables SHOULD not be used for layout but it's not a crime to use
> one occasionally especially if the non table approach "adds unnecessary
> weight to the design".
>
Hmm, are you implying that I don't? =) No, it's not a crime, but really if
your design needs a table in the strucutral layer to support the visual
design, should you not revisit the visual design?

kind regards
Terrence Wood.



**
The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/

 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
 for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
**

Re: [WSG] Expanding height of left column to fill space

[Bert Doorn]

G'day again


Once upon a time it was NN4, now it's IE6, and tomorrow who knows? And
that's the point of designing to web standards. As for what the client
wants, I say it's two of: good, fast, cheap.
 


Yep.  And some of those have difficulty with non table based layouts :-)


However, I doubt very much that the big driver is the visual design Bert,
and I doubt most people visiting or commissioning a web site give two
hoots as to how its built. 

The vast majority of my clients don't care whether I use a table or divs 
(and would not even know the difference).  But they do often want a 
particular layout and all except a few do look at it with a graphical 
browser. 


For the record, the people paying my bills *do* want standards based
design - I'm working in e-govt - and they want content that is usable by
people, and *easily* manipulated by machines.
 

Standards based (good) does not rule out using the occasional table for 
layout if it's the quickest way to get something out there (fast and 
cheap).  


("e-govt"  - is that the real world?  LOL)


If a 2 column CSS layout with a band of color down one side is difficult
to implement with todays technology, shouldn't we instead look for designs
that work with the technology we are using?


If it's your own site and you are happy to have a different layout, sure.  Or 
if you can convince the client that your way is better.  But if the client 
wants a particular look, We should give them what they want.  If that means 
using a *single* table to get two columns of equal length and with different 
background colors, I will use the table.


setting a background on one or two div's *still* uses less code than the
equivalent markup for tables.

Show me an example?*  *Take into account not just the html, but also the 
css and the file size of any images you might use for the background 
color(s). 


No, it's not a crime, but really if
your design needs a table in the strucutral 
layer to support the visual design, should 
you not revisit the visual design?
 

The visual design is not always negotiable, so I use the means available 
to me to deliver what I am paid to deliver in the most efficient way I 
can.   To me that means CSS based layouts *most* of the time.


Regards 
--

Bert Doorn, Better Web Design
http://www.betterwebdesign.com.au/
Fast-loading, user-friendly websites 



**
The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/

See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
**

[WSG] Images as accessible form buttons

[Andreas Boehmer [Addictive Media]]

I know we had this discussion once before, but I was hoping to return to it
to see if there are any new opinions on this topic.

The question I have is what would be the best option to create images as
form buttons in an accessible manner? 

So far I have always tried to use css to assign a background image to a
, but that doesn't always work, in particular if your
button text does not contain a standard font.

I then thought I should use , but realised that this
doesn't work in all browsers. IE, for example, has got the nasty habbit of
submitting name.x=0&name.y=0 when these kind of buttons are clicked, which
can make it really difficult if you have got multiple buttons in one form
and you wish to detect which of them was clicked.

Then there is , but to be honest I don't know much about this one. I
assume it is not being supported in older browsers, so probably not the best
accessible solution, either.

Which leaves me with no solution, really. Is there a way of making it
accessible? Or are our browser limitations that strong that there is really
no way to use images as form buttons?

Thanks for the opinions.

Andreas


**
The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/

 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
 for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
**