At 5:28 PM +0100 10/2/01, Michael Everson wrote:
>
>The CSUR is maintained to support scripts of various kinds. Some of
>those (Shavian, Deseret, Tengwar, Cirth) are expected to "graduate"
>into Unicode.
And one of them already has!
--
John H. Jenkins
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Web
site but doesn't work on X. Yet.
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John H. Jenkins
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It's much easier that way.
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John H. Jenkins
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nt. Unfortunately, his Web site has
vanished in the great digital void and I no longer have a copy of his
font.
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John H. Jenkins
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t;than displaying a black box, which is how William Overington's private-use
>characters would appear in most fonts,
True. Encoding ligatures as characters is a bad thing.
>or forcing the user to incur the
>overhead of fancy text.
In what way is fancy text an unreasonable burden on the user? If
anything, plain text is becoming an increasingly rare beast except in
source code.
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John H. Jenkins
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ge
>English speaker, unlike Pinyin, which leaves us to puzzle out how to prounce
>"qun" and "xue", while still mispronouncing "cun" and "peng". In my eyes,
>it's a tie.
>
Yeah, well, they're both based on the wrong dialect, anyway.
Barbaric M
nicode is intended *not* to
solve. Unicode doesn't do typography.
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John H. Jenkins
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make sure that the glyphs
accurately match the sources they used, but with upwards of 40,000
characters involved, we cannot guarantee that they are all perfectly
accurate. Meanwhile, the *official* definition of the character is its
mappings and the *informal* definition is its glyph. That's
Just to swerve the topic of conversation here, in the "E" for effort
department, what about a statue to the Emperor Claudius for at least
trying to add letters to the Latin alphabet? And does anybody know what
the letters *were*?
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John H. Jenkins
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On Fri, Nov 09, 2001 at 08:48:30AM -0600, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Any suggestions on what the right way to deal with "surrogate" codepoints
> in this algorithm? They should not occur in the data, but what if they do?
Just translate them from one encoding to the other normally. Unless
you have
nology plc Tel: +44 (0) 1223 518566
> 645 Newmarket RoadFax: +44 (0) 1223 518526
> Cambridge, CB5 8PB, United KingdomWWW: http://www.pace.co.uk/
>
>
==
John H. Jenkins
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art of the
decipherment process. On the other hand, there *is* just the one
document (or board game), so there's only so much one can do.
And it remains the only encoding proposal sent to the UTC which
contains the entire known corpus of writing in the script as a part
of the proposal.
formats as well, and the
'cmap' spec is part of TrueType shared by OpenType and AAT.
Meanwhile, people on the Mac can use Apple's DumperFuser tool available at
<http://developer.apple.com/fonts/Tools/index.html> to put astral cmaps
into their fonts.
==
John H. Jenkins
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us who still have a fond spot
in our heart for the term "astral characters" and use it in preference to
the official term.
==
John H. Jenkins
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>
>
end me one ASAP, so I
> can finish this blasted paper and go home to grab a glass of eggnog.
>
> Help please???
>
> Suzanne Topping
> Vice President
> BizWonk Inc.
> (Solutions for a Global E-conomy) (TM)
>
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> 25 N. Washington St.
> Rochester, NY 14614-1110
> USA
>
> Phone: +1 716.454.4210
> Fax: +1 716.454.4213
>
>
==
John H. Jenkins
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ect on your overall argument, of course.
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John H. Jenkins
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On Wednesday, January 2, 2002, at 08:38 AM, Suzanne M. Topping wrote:
> Does anyone know if this is a known problem?
>
It's a known problem and is being worked on.
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John H. Jenkins
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x27;m not very far in it.
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is occasionally the plague of
an organization like Unicode, simply hasn't been the done.
(Maybe an ambitious university student with an MA thesis to write
?)
==
John H. Jenkins
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m for the Mac which
is *not* in the list of 32 scripts would have no choice but to hijack one
of the existing codes and reuse it for their own purposes.
In this case, there's clearly an Inuit system for the Mac out there which
has hijacked the Ethiopic script code in the absence of any othe
) is a
> mistake--the TraditionalVariant should only be U+881F.
>
Actually, no. Both KangXi and the Cihai list U+8721 (蜡) as a traditional
character in its own right, although I assume it's rare as I can't find it
in my other dictionaries.
==
John H. Jenkins
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rg"; Jingwa,
Inc., will need both "" and "".
OK, so this is more than one caveat. It will also mean that we will no
longer be able to accept both the TC and SC form for a character as a
candidate for separate encoding in the future, and future compatibility
ideographs will be excluded from use in IDN. (Actually, you could save
yourself some grief right off by excluding Han radicals and all
compatibility ideographs.)
==
John H. Jenkins
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On Thursday, January 24, 2002, at 11:44 AM, Thomas Chan wrote:
> On Thu, 24 Jan 2002, John H. Jenkins wrote:
>
>> However, this is already a problem in Unicode. "shuowen.org" will have
>> to
>> register both ".org" and ".org"; Jingwa,
&g
On Thursday, January 24, 2002, at 12:29 PM, John Cowan wrote:
> John H. Jenkins wrote:
>
> {TC1, SC1, SC2, TC2, TC3, SC3} constitute a "Han simplification
> class" (HSC), and are all the same when appearing in IDNs.
>
> Correct?
>
Oui.
>
>> The caveat
formal encoding in Unicode (and really doesn't want people
other than Apple using it in text, despite the fact that it's in all our
fonts).
Anyone who *does* use it in text is free to use U+F8FF, as we do, to map
it to Unicode.
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John H. Jenkins
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ess the OT data in the font,
parse it, and process it appropriately using public functions. The one
piece still missing is automatic support for OT layout data in the system.
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John H. Jenkins
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.
> (I don't know the licensing terms for using these data.)
>
>
We also have a newish kFrequency field.
# kFrequency
# A rough fequency measurement for the character based on analysis
of Chinese
# USENET postings
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John H. Jenkins
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Y'know, I must confess to not following this thread at all. Yes, it is
impossible to tell from the glyphs on the screen what sequence of Unicode
characters was used to generate them. Just *how*, exactly, is this a
security problem?
==
John H. Jenkins
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objection. Because I don't know *precisely* what bytes Microsoft Word or
Adobe Acrobat use, do I refuse to sign documents they create? Is that the
idea? I mean, good heavens, I don't even know *precisely* what bytes Mail.
app is going to use for this email. Should I refuse to sign it
On Thursday, February 7, 2002, at 07:44 PM, Yung-Fong Tang wrote:
> Deborah:
> How about MacOS and Mac OS Apps
>
No. Apple doesn't use anything in the OS/2 table except the embedding
permission field.
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John H. Jenkins
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anticipated forms can be drawn.
Of course, the rendering engine has to know enough to take advantage of
that, too.
I have on my docket drafting a UTR on the subject with a list of
precomposed glyphs which would be desirable in fonts and available to end
users.
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John H. Jenkins
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visit my wife's siblings, she would often tell people that we were going
to drive to "California" for a vacation. :-)
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John H. Jenkins
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x27; ligature.
>
Apple's Hoeffler font contains an fj ligature. If I'm not mistaken. most
of Adobe's Pro fonts do, too.
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John H. Jenkins
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systems and does not use ATSUI. It is therefore
limited in the extent to which it supports Unicode.
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John H. Jenkins
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On Wednesday, March 6, 2002, at 09:15 AM, John Wilcock wrote:
> On Wed, 6 Mar 2002 07:57:08 -0700, John H. Jenkins wrote:
>> MS Office X converts Unicode text to
>> runs of older Mac script systems and does not use ATSUI. It is therefore
>> limited in the extent to whic
art of our revenue stream
like that.
OTOH FreeType is, I hear, working on OpenType support.
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gwar be added BEFORE Ciao-Ciao's poetries and Man-Yo-Shu become
> encodable in Unicode.
Do you have any specific examples of characters in Ciao-Ciao's poetry or
the Manyoshu which are missing? If so, you've got a couple of weeks to
propose them before the door closes on new chara
are still characters missing for modern
non-Mandarin dialects of Chinese; some of the ones Unicode is proposing
for CJK Extension C are from Cantonese dictionaries.
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whose Japanese name cannot be
represented by Unicode 3.2.
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John H. Jenkins
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y because Bart Simpson has used (I am relieved to find
>> there is no "Unidict" !)
>
> Rather more like they should add "positronic" because Isaac Asimov used
> it.
>
>
It's in the OED. Asimov gets credit for both that and robotics.
But that'
g a proposal for a IDEOGRAPHIC
TABOO VARIATION INDICATOR for precisely this reason. Sorry.
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John H. Jenkins
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render the character on-the-fly, it doesn't have to. You'd need something
like Wenlin to actually draw your character in text.
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John H. Jenkins
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rsonally would draw the line is between
having a body of people (size left vague) who want to interchange data in
the script, or if there is a historic body of literature in the script.
==
John H. Jenkins
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of angry anybody's (we hope) to deal with now.
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John H. Jenkins
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On Tuesday, March 19, 2002, at 02:15 PM, Dan Kogai wrote:
> On Tuesday, March 19, 2002, at 01:33 , John H. Jenkins wrote:
>> Of course, the correct solution to this is not to grouse about Unicode
>> (since it does better than any other character set around), but for JI
technically impossible to properly
> display Unicode characters.
>
> There is no implementation exist.
>
> While some implementations work in some localized context, local
> character set serves better for the context.
>
> Masataka Ohta
>
>
>
>
==
John H. Jenkins
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On Wednesday, March 20, 2002, at 08:19 AM, John Cowan wrote:
> I am now developing a patch for Mozilla that causes it to display all
> URLs in Fraktur fonts only.
>
>
No, no. Convert them into phonetics and write them in Deseret.
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John H. Jenkins
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correct algorithm is to display kanji
with Japanese glyphs if at all possible.
Again, the typographic tradition in Japan is to write kanji with Japanese
glyphs *even* when Chinese is the language being written.
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John H. Jenkins
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27;t really mean American
(or Chinese) cultural imperialism. Unfortunately, Ohta-san can still get
himself a hearing on a number of Internet-related committees.
==
John H. Jenkins
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cal unity of the ideographs used throughout East
Asia and takes the approach that they should be unified.
Surrogates were introduced because it was clear that we would ultimately
need more than 65536 code points to encode what people wanted to represent.
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John H. Jenkins
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ail.yahoo.com
>
>
>
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ariants are characters with the same meaning but different
abstract shapes.
> where can I find more detail reference document about them ?
The Unicode Standard, version 3.0, pp. 262-263.
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John H. Jenkins
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d
> 212F but none of which identified themselves as this number in particular.
>
>
U+0065. Except in rare cases for backwards compatibility with other
standards, Unicode does not include special characters for mathematical or
physical constants.
======
John H. Jenkins
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e clipart pixs (B&W .GIFs, .BMPs, .JPGs, .PNGs, ...) for the additional characters you'd like to see admitted into Unicode.
I believe that the proposal form specifically requires a TrueType font, although not necessarily with the initial proposal. We can't use clipart pix in the standa
matted them when we
use them for Macs. A pure file on such a disk could easily be a PC file
created by a Windows app or a Mac file created by a Mac app. There's no
way of telling based on the media itself from which architecture the file
came.
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John H. Jenkins
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inclusion in Unicode.
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John H. Jenkins
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le on CD for Windows.
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John H. Jenkins
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ning sequences. No, there's no point in asking for them.
Unicode cannot add new precomposed accented Latin, Greek, or Cyrillic
letters because it screw up normalization. Use the actual upsilon capital
letter followed by the appropriate breathing and accent marks.
==
John H. Jenkins
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>
> Thanks,
>
>
> Thomas Chan
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>
==
John H. Jenkins
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peror five hundred years dead from an entirely
different dynasty is no biggie. So the Qing dictionary, the KangXi, would
have some taboo forms which would later become untaboo (especially now, of
course, since nobody does that kind of thing anymore).
==
John H. Jenkins
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e on the web
> site
> please?
>
>
The current version is at <http://www.unicode.org/charts/Unihan3.2.pdf>.
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John H. Jenkins
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currently eighteen characters from Extension B currently have
a kDefinition entry in Unihan.txt.
==
John H. Jenkins
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of Unicode.
>
> This is news to me. They were omitted originally because they were
> considered ligatures. Has there been a new paper and proposal?
>
Yes. WG2 documents N2473 and N2474 (when they show up, which should be
shortly) deal with the issue.
==
John H. Jenki
Unicode Registry?
>
Yes, they are. Ken Beesley of Xerox Research Center Europe is aware of
their use in handwritten materials and argues that treating them as mere
ligatures is insufficient. This will be WG2 document N2474.
==
John H. Jenkins
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htt
ngla letters but was not able to type Khanda Ta.
> (The glyph is also probably missing in that font).
>
>
I don't think that Code2000 is an OpenType font, which means it won't have
the ancillary glyphs and data needed to do full proper support of many
languages and scripts.
On Tuesday, May 21, 2002, at 09:01 PM, James Kass wrote:
> John H. Jenkins wrote:
>
>>
>> I don't think that Code2000 is an OpenType font, which means it won't
>> have
>> the ancillary glyphs and data needed to do full proper support of many
>>
igatures.
>
>
Zero width ligator was rejected. Zero-width joiner can be used to mark
ligation points where they are absolutely necessary; where they are merely
stylistic preferences, they belong in markup.
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John H. Jenkins
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iacritical marks,
> mappings between Hiragana and Katakana, mappings between European,
> Arabic, and Indic digits, and so on. NOWHERE in this document is there
> the slightest mention of TC/SC mappings. Isn't that a bit strange?
No, not really. There is sometimes a tendency for people who work on UTC
documents to have a subconscious Han/everything-else dichotomy as they
work.
> If
> the UTC were really driving the issue of TC/SC mapping, wouldn't they
> have at least given it a brief mention in a "Character Foldings"
> proposal?
>
I would have hoped so, but evidently that didn't happen. That the UTC is
concerned about SC/TC data and other Han equivalences is, in any event,
already a part of the public record.
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John H. Jenkins
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in perspective, however, bear in mind that it's now
possible to have file names which are up to 255 UTF-16 units long
(including astral characters), and that AAT data in the fonts is respected
by the Finder, even for PUA characters. I can name a file in Pollard if I
like, so long as an appropr
; have very few fonts that are capable of doing this.
>
Agreement; Apple's current solution is a "better-than-nothing" one, but
not really what's best in the long run IMHO. BTW, does FontLab 4
auto-generate OT layout data from the Unicode repertoire of a font?
=
oes not consider this an ideal long-term solution.
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John H. Jenkins
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gt; people who are on the money side of the digital divide.
It's a nice goal. It isn't a realistic one, however.
Now, a question on my part. You're using the term "digital divide," but
you're not defining it very well. Could you tell me:
a) What the "digital divide" really is from your perspective—that is, what
OS is on one side and what OS on the other?
b) What are the relative numbers of people with systems on both sides?
If, say, your divide were to be between Mac OS 6 or earlier and Mac OS 7
or later (the point at which Apple adopted TrueType as its primary font
technology), then there are likely 99.99% of all Mac users on the
7-or-later side of the divide. Do you see what I'm asking here?
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John H. Jenkins
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e that hath ears to hear,
let him hear."
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John H. Jenkins
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ing to go.
>
And for the record, for slightly more you can get a low-end iMac with Mac
OS Xagain, a Unicode-capable OS.
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John H. Jenkins
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f characters.
In real life, you can ignore (2) by simply issuing a locale-specific
version of a font, but there's no real way to get around (1).
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John H. Jenkins
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approved way to create a conversion table from Windows 950 (with HKSCS)
> to Unicode?
Er, doesn't MS provide one somewhere?
==
John H. Jenkins
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On Thursday, June 20, 2002, at 03:25 PM, Kenneth Whistler wrote:
> I think what a number of people on the list have been hinting -- or
> openly stating -- is that prolixity is not a virtue on an email list
> when trying to convey one's ideas.
>
IOW, brevity's wit'
sylistic issue and is best left to higher-level protocols.
Thus saith Unicode 3.2.
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John H. Jenkins
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Hmm. Disregard the last message from me. It isn't "ct" you're replacing.
See how annoying this all is? :-)
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John H. Jenkins
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that it was complete cocidence. It is trivial,
> fact, to disprove the hypothesis that the "experiment" supposedly proved.
>
>
Will you guys *please* stop sending me email with the Shavian letter
CHURCH everywhere the Latin letters "ct" should be? It's most
user insert a pair around every
letter they want in italics.
Remember, Unicode is aiming at encoding *plain text*. For the bulk of
Latin-based languages, ligation control is simply not a matter of *plain
text*that is, the message is still perfectly correct whether ligatures
are on
>
And isn't there a language used quite a bit just south of the English
channel for which Latin-1 isn't really adequate? A minor, obscure
language, I think. Fr-something.
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John H. Jenkins
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e, the ZWJ/ZWNJ
mechanism is an appropriate one to provide ligation control.
4) The precise set of ligatures in a Latin typeface is design-specific. A
typeface should not be required to include a set of ligatures which do not
make aesthetic sense for the overall design.
This last point, by t
the ligation function with ZWJ rather than creating a new character, but
>> your arguments about Latin, Greek, Runic, Old Hungarian, etc. ligation
>> were thorough and unassailable.
>
> Thank you, nice person. It's nice to know that someone else looked at the
> argumen
On Monday, July 1, 2002, at 06:28 AM, James Kass wrote:
>
> John H. Jenkins wrote:
>
>> That seems pretty clear to me. If you want a "ct" ligature in your
>> document because you think it "looks cool," then you use some
>> higher-level
>&
l block (U+2Fxx).
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John H. Jenkins
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On Monday, July 1, 2002, at 02:08 PM, Asmus Freytag wrote:
> At 11:34 AM 6/30/02 -0600, John H. Jenkins wrote:
>> Remember, Unicode is aiming at encoding *plain text*. For the bulk of
>> Latin-based languages, ligation control is simply not a matter of *plain
>> text*th
open at the moment, you do it by
turning pair kerning on and off. InDesign has a menu that lets you select
degree of ligation.
==
John H. Jenkins
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e the ligatures with the ZWJ inserted
as part of a ligature table which is on by default and which isn't
revealed to the UI so that the user can't turn them off.
==
John H. Jenkins
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On Tuesday, July 2, 2002, at 09:49 AM, Michael Everson wrote:
> At 09:41 -0600 2002-07-02, John H. Jenkins wrote:
>
>> Alas, but that's technically impossible. Both OT and AAT (I'm not sure
>> about Graphite) require that single characters map to single glyphs,
rsions of our tools which are hard to
use and don't let him do this. We're working on getting newer and better
ones to him.
==
John H. Jenkins
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nes themselves don't need to exist, AFAIK.
>
True. I tend to avoid that, because if something goes wrong and the
system attempts to actually *display* one of these virtual glyphs,
disaster would ensue. (Dave Opstad and I have had long debates on the
safety of doing this.)
==
John H. Jenkins
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ines.
>
The typical approach these days is for the tools that provide advanced
layout table support to be keyed to glyph name. Apple's tools allow glyph
name, glyph number, of Unicode code point as glyph identifiers. As you
say, it makes it possible to cut-and-paste source files
On Wednesday, July 3, 2002, at 11:57 AM, Asmus Freytag wrote:
> Klingon (or any of the Latin ciphers/ movie scripts)
>
>
I'd say Klingon *and* one of the Latin ciphers. Klingon is almost worth a
FAQ in itself.
======
John H. Jenkins
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
[EMAIL P
ot; in the font, and have the tables set up so that whenever "j" is
found with an accent, dotlessj is substituted.
==
John H. Jenkins
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://homepage.mac.com/jenkins/
corpus of writing with that script as a part of the proposal. :-)
==
John H. Jenkins
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://homepage.mac.com/jenkins/
l*
text display on the system if it were to be used with ATSUI. It was kind
of cool, actually. We actually have a "font zoo" stashed away full of
pathological fonts which have been known to do all kinds of interesting
things if someone should be foolish enough to install them.
On Wednesday, July 3, 2002, at 11:10 AM, Stefan Persson wrote:
> There is a big problem in the current Unicode ſtandard, ſince
> Fraktur letters aren't ſupported in any ſuitable manner.
Aargh! Medial long-s! Run away! Run away! :-)
======
John H. Jenkins
[EMAIL PROTEC
oglobin" is incorrect.
> If the source used "&c.", it should never be changed to "etc.".
> So, if the source used the "ct" ligature...
>
>
I see your point, but I think we're to the stage where we'll just have to
agree to disagree. We *do
t; feature? I'm too lazy to check right now.) We
also have a list of "invisible" characters which should, ordinarily, be
left undisplayed including ZWJ, ZWNJ, the bidi overrides, and so on.
==
John H. Jenkins
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