Re: (313) minimal suxs like dub
From DufDuf: ie. minimal is a technique like dub is a technique Disagree. Dub is a genre, Minimal is a genre. Rhythm Sound does not sound like Magda. Yes these things exist along a continuum of sound, but are certainly at fairly distinct ends, with rather pronounced sound differences, regardless of how they are mixed together by a dj. Sure after a certain point we are sometimes splitting hairs, and of course everything bleeds into different areas, but that's part of the fun. People can get a little crazy with categorization, but it's a very useful tool for talking about certain types of music. I can say minimal and people know what I'm talking about for the most part. It might be hard to classify a single track, but I'm quite comfortable using a label to make it easy to discuss a type of sound as a whole. I mean seriously the repetitive complaints I keep hearing about laptop dj's or copy cat stylists .. and references to the same single dubstep producer is wearing me thin. My delete key works just fine on messages I don't want to read. I just don't read posts I'm not interested in. I appreciate your opinions and did find them interesting, but writing in to everyone to say you are tired of hearing a discussion about something while participating in that same discussion is weak sauce. I've been beat up around here before . for saying this, but the music is moving. It's doing new things, in a million different ways. I'd say there's plenty new in the performance side of things, but things aren't moving all that fast on the music-writing side. The technical ability to spit out a track on ableton in a few hours doesn't mean it's going to be any good. I honestly can't tell any more the difference between house, techno, techhouse, detriot, minimal or any other genre you might want to mention. Splitting hairs again. I don't think it matters at all how you classify one piece of music, but people like to generalize in order to make things easier for large groups of music. There's just too much music out there. You have to know what area of the dartboard to shoot for in order to narrow it down to find stuff you like. That, or find people whose taste you trust in order to suggest things. I've found that people on this list for example, generally like the same kinds of things I like, so I don't care if they call it X genre, it gets the benefit of the doubt. And for the most part when people suggest music on here, I don't really hear any discussion at all about genres. It's 'check out this track' or 'check out this mix.' and I think that's fine enough for most. The current era of music can mean everyone is a producer in their bedroom. So what I think we are hearing is people using the same sort of production techniques across similar tempo's and styles of music. It's always been that way, with whatever the current medium/techniques are. Tape edits to laptops, most people putting out tracks were/are always using the same sorts of tools at the same time. I just think we might get more life out of electronic music if we start to look at some of the processes going on as the use of techniques as opposed to genreification followed by quick dismissal. I've got no problem genre-fying something that I think is mostly terrible (or excellent). It's my opinion. Classifying a group of music that sounds similar is perfectly valid if you are trying to express your opinion. No, I haven't listened to every 2-step record out there, but I can comfortably say that I'm not that interested in that music as a whole. No, I haven't listened to every minimal record out there, but I've heard enough (and certainly bought a few), to know it's not something I'm interested in either. Currently I am enjoying the sounds classified as minimal because they provide a group of tracks that enable me to play sets that contain a lot of spatial texture. Rock on. The use of reverbs, delays, stripped out melody modes and monotonic rhythms enable out board sample layering and the use of off beats on the other deck to construct the type of sets I have wanted too for years. Well I guess that is the good thing about most minimal records, you can put 4 of them on at the same time and not really notice it, it does give you a lot of room. I'll give you that it can certainly make for a lot of fun mixer work. Lets face it every Dj wants to be producer with out having to do the hard work in the studio. No. And from FBK: What would make me happy is a bit of funk coming back into the sound...or at least the acknowledgement of the groove. The electronic holy grail is really whatever you want-for me it's to have the music I love not all sound like it's coming out of the same three boxes from four people. Very well put. -Arturo
Re: (313) minimal suxs like dub
Arturo,i think both minimal and dub are named genres, but, above that, minimal and dub are techniques, methods of music production. You can hear minimal not only in techno, you can hear it in the philip glass music, in some post-punk bands, steve reich music, and in many areas of academic/modern music. Minimal is the way of the synthetic, the reducing, the way of the minimal elements necessary for certain expression due to intensify that expression or leave the receptor totally in charge of the interpretation. Dub is style of reggae, yes, but it's a studio technique before that. The use of effects, the focus on the process, the concept of remixing, the producer turning into a composer instead of a simple engineer. Dub techniques are responsable for a revolution in the music production aesthetics. You can see dub versions from Carl Craig songs, Hi-hop songs, Madonna songs, Stevie Wonder songs, etc etc etc. When you have music made in layers, you have dub. Kw On 07/04/2008, at 03:38, Arturo Lopez wrote: From DufDuf: ie. minimal is a technique like dub is a technique Disagree. Dub is a genre, Minimal is a genre. Rhythm Sound does not sound like Magda. Yes these things exist along a continuum of sound, but are certainly at fairly distinct ends, with rather pronounced sound differences, regardless of how they are mixed together by a dj. Sure after a certain point we are sometimes splitting hairs, and of course everything bleeds into different areas, but that's part of the fun. People can get a little crazy with categorization, but it's a very useful tool for talking about certain types of music. I can say minimal and people know what I'm talking about for the most part. It might be hard to classify a single track, but I'm quite comfortable using a label to make it easy to discuss a type of sound as a whole. I mean seriously the repetitive complaints I keep hearing about laptop dj's or copy cat stylists .. and references to the same single dubstep producer is wearing me thin. My delete key works just fine on messages I don't want to read. I just don't read posts I'm not interested in. I appreciate your opinions and did find them interesting, but writing in to everyone to say you are tired of hearing a discussion about something while participating in that same discussion is weak sauce. I've been beat up around here before . for saying this, but the music is moving. It's doing new things, in a million different ways. I'd say there's plenty new in the performance side of things, but things aren't moving all that fast on the music-writing side. The technical ability to spit out a track on ableton in a few hours doesn't mean it's going to be any good. I honestly can't tell any more the difference between house, techno, techhouse, detriot, minimal or any other genre you might want to mention. Splitting hairs again. I don't think it matters at all how you classify one piece of music, but people like to generalize in order to make things easier for large groups of music. There's just too much music out there. You have to know what area of the dartboard to shoot for in order to narrow it down to find stuff you like. That, or find people whose taste you trust in order to suggest things. I've found that people on this list for example, generally like the same kinds of things I like, so I don't care if they call it X genre, it gets the benefit of the doubt. And for the most part when people suggest music on here, I don't really hear any discussion at all about genres. It's 'check out this track' or 'check out this mix.' and I think that's fine enough for most. The current era of music can mean everyone is a producer in their bedroom. So what I think we are hearing is people using the same sort of production techniques across similar tempo's and styles of music. It's always been that way, with whatever the current medium/techniques are. Tape edits to laptops, most people putting out tracks were/are always using the same sorts of tools at the same time. I just think we might get more life out of electronic music if we start to look at some of the processes going on as the use of techniques as opposed to genreification followed by quick dismissal. I've got no problem genre-fying something that I think is mostly terrible (or excellent). It's my opinion. Classifying a group of music that sounds similar is perfectly valid if you are trying to express your opinion. No, I haven't listened to every 2-step record out there, but I can comfortably say that I'm not that interested in that music as a whole. No, I haven't listened to every minimal record out there, but I've heard enough (and certainly bought a few), to know it's not something I'm interested in either. Currently I am enjoying the sounds classified as minimal because they provide a group of tracks that enable me to play sets that contain a lot of spatial texture. Rock on. The use of reverbs, delays, stripped out melody
Re: (313) minimal suxs like dub
Good points, Kw. I guess I was focusing more on the classification stuff. You are certainly right about those words being used to describe an approach to production. I guess I'm also drawing my own imaginary line between the sort of disciplined minimal approach t o production you describe versus the sort of minimal that's trendy nowadays. Here's samples of something from I. A. Bericochea, which I think is pretty good minimal. http://www.iabericochea.com/A.mp3 and http://www.iabericochea.com/rojo.mp3 I'd consider that very different than the stuff they are playing in Berlin, even if those samples are from Minus releases (hehe). Arturo Arturo,i think both minimal and dub are named genres, but, above that, minimal and dub are techniques, methods of music production. You can hear minimal not only in techno, you can hear it in the philip glass music, in some post-punk bands, steve reich music, and in many areas of academic/modern music. Minimal is the way of the synthetic, the reducing, the way of the minimal elements necessary for certain expression due to intensify that expression or leave the receptor totally in charge of the interpretation. Dub is style of reggae, yes, but it's a studio technique before that. The use of effects, the focus on the process, the concept of remixing, the producer turning into a composer instead of a simple engineer. Dub techniques are responsable for a revolution in the music production aesthetics. You can see dub versions from Carl Craig songs, Hi-hop songs, Madonna songs, Stevie Wonder songs, etc etc etc. When you have music made in layers, you have dub. Kw
Re: (313) minimal suxs like dub
Well, Arturo, i got your point. But i really have another opinion about minimal. I'm not a native english speaker, but i'll try. Forgive any mistakes. Minimal is not necesserally less, or minus. But, sometimes, it ends up being the use of less elements. The use of silence and empty spaces as an element instead of a pause or a nothing. We know that when we say something, or when we write something, people will never get exactly what we meant. There'll be always pieces blent together and holes that opens the possibility to other interpretations to fill in. Maybe, in the minimalistic forms, you these holes stretched. The intention of minimal, i guess, comes from the oposition to the whole dictationship created by the music of the romantic period, wich involved high eloquence to tecnically impose an established and only one interpretation. In many parts of the world, folk music is born minimal. The music from the people of the Xingu river valley, in Brazil, is very very very stripped to the bones. Japanese music is naturally minimal. In fact, most of the inspiration for many of the minimalist artists came from Japan. I see a lot of people categorizing dronal or repetition as minimalism. Sometimes, a drone or a repetitive pattern can configure a minimal structure, but not always. They can be in a modus of adding up indefinetly till turn into a mass of noise or white noise. The songs you linked, i feel what you say about they're being minimal. Well, when you compare two songs, there will always be a minimal one comparing to the other. Again, in these songs i can hear many textures, some walls of textures. Maybe they can be called minimal inside the style people call minimal (people name things that sound like EBM or New Beat as electro). They have a shade of some Isaac Hayes dark, dense and slow soul. I think they're intimal, delicate, not eloquent, sutil, but not minimal, in my opinion. A man, sitting in an empty room, playing a violin, can be minimal. Or not. It will depend on what he will play. On 07/04/2008, at 15:17, Arturo Lopez wrote: Good points, Kw. I guess I was focusing more on the classification stuff. You are certainly right about those words being used to describe an approach to production. I guess I'm also drawing my own imaginary line between the sort of disciplined minimal approach t o production you describe versus the sort of minimal that's trendy nowadays. Here's samples of something from I. A. Bericochea, which I think is pretty good minimal. http://www.iabericochea.com/A.mp3 and http://www.iabericochea.com/rojo.mp3 I'd consider that very different than the stuff they are playing in Berlin, even if those samples are from Minus releases (hehe). Arturo Arturo,i think both minimal and dub are named genres, but, above that, minimal and dub are techniques, methods of music production. You can hear minimal not only in techno, you can hear it in the philip glass music, in some post-punk bands, steve reich music, and in many areas of academic/modern music. Minimal is the way of the synthetic, the reducing, the way of the minimal elements necessary for certain expression due to intensify that expression or leave the receptor totally in charge of the interpretation. Dub is style of reggae, yes, but it's a studio technique before that. The use of effects, the focus on the process, the concept of remixing, the producer turning into a composer instead of a simple engineer. Dub techniques are responsable for a revolution in the music production aesthetics. You can see dub versions from Carl Craig songs, Hi-hop songs, Madonna songs, Stevie Wonder songs, etc etc etc. When you have music made in layers, you have dub. Kw
Re: (313) minimal suxs like dub
I agree with you, Simon. Kw On 05/04/2008, at 21:59, duf duf wrote: It's amazing . . does anyone like anything on this list. Maybe the 313 t-shirt should be .. don't like it on 313 .. beatless humour aside .. I was thinking the other day that we might be getting genre confused with technique. ie. minimal is a technique like dub is a technique Alot of the slash/techno/electronic music I hear nowadays can belong to a different genre depending on who you talk to, what tempo you play it at .. and possibly what medium you play it with. I'll bet if it's on vinyl its techno, downloaded it's electro and if you play it off a laptop then it's minimal . I mean seriously the repetitive complaints I keep hearing about laptop dj's or copy cat stylists .. and references to the same single dubstep producer is wearing me thin. I've been beat up around here before . for saying this, but the music is moving. It's doing new things, in a million different ways. Beatport is only one black hole of a dozen where new players can loose their credibility to the hype. It used to be Magazines, or lists like this. However nowadays you can pick your sound, lift you ideas from a global pool and drop your tracks back into the same pool. I honestly can't tell any more the difference between house, techno, techhouse, detriot, minimal or any other genre you might want to mention. For me genres change between bars of a track. cut out the high hats and it's techno, pull out the mids and its minimal. Take out the bass the highs sing some vocals and your in the middle of a trance track ?? Dub is a genre of music, but it's also a studio technique that can be transported across many different genres of music. The current era of music can mean everyone is a producer in their bedroom. So what I think we are hearing is people using the same sort of production techniques across similar tempo's and styles of music. What else are we too expect given the technology, history and culture of the music? I just think we might get more life out of electronic music if we start to look at some of the processes going on as the use of techniques as opposed to genreification followed by quick dismissal. Currently I am enjoying the sounds classified as minimal because they provide a group of tracks that enable me to play sets that contain a lot of spatial texture. The use of reverbs, delays, stripped out melody modes and monotonic rhythms enable out board sample layering and the use of off beats on the other deck to construct the type of sets I have wanted too for years. Lets face it every Dj wants to be producer with out having to do the hard work in the studio. The likes of Lee Perry lead the way by just dubbing an existing sound, opening the door for one knob wonders the world over. In this regard , yes, the use of minimalist techniques by many producers is tedious but no more than the 303 when it was flavour or the cow bell or siren or filters . etc etc. We listen to techno music, we listen to machines and plead desperately for soul. You can't have your drum machine and beat it too. .simon
Re: (313) minimal suxs like dub
Kevin Kennedy wrote: ...and sadly today most of it is just electronic crap. This has been the a mantra for over 15 years though .. dance music is can always completely mundane in the micro. I guess what I'm trying to suggest is that this plethora of crap is what makes the music what it is. Don't the sounds evolve in the clubs on the dance floors, minute changes that seem mundane week to week but consequential when reviewed across seasons. What are we really looking for? What is going to make techno happy? What is the electronic holy grail? Dub/reggea has resolved some of this with its 'version' system where all producers, MC's and Dj's have a crack at stylising or interpreting a tune at the same time. There is this acceptance that the music is a vehicle for personal expression, communication, interaction. So the focus is around a particular persons 'version' as opposed to constantly seeking the creation of something new or unique. In this context .. the tyranny of minimal is not so dangerous. Its just the life of the music, growing, shifting and evolving.
Re: (313) minimal suxs like dub
Lets face it every Dj wants to be producer with out having to do the hard work in the studio. That is not a fact. There are tons of DJs who subscribe to the David Mancuso school of DJing, or at least lean primarily that way. True . it's a pretty broad statement I made there. But certainly the process of Dj'ing can often be like accepting the Grammy on behalf of someone else .. without the speech. Still I'd argue that Cool Herc got more people into Dj'ing than Mancuso .. Who would win that fight? Love or the wheels of steel?
Re: (313) minimal suxs like dub
On Sun, Apr 6, 2008 at 7:09 AM, duf duf [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Kevin Kennedy wrote: ...and sadly today most of it is just electronic crap. This has been the a mantra for over 15 years though .. dance music is can always completely mundane in the micro. The period between 1993-96 saw an explosion in this music...especially this style...there were actual classics being created during this period-see DBX's 'losing control,' Shake's 'floorfiller,' and most of Rob Hoods output during that period. Heck, even my music from that time still finds the floor in some DJ's hands... What are we really looking for? What is going to make techno happy? What is the electronic holy grail? What would make me happy is a bit of funk coming back into the sound...or at least the acknowledgement of the groove. The electronic holy grail is really whatever you want-for me it's to have the music I love not all sound like it's coming out of the same three boxes from four people. Dub/reggea has resolved some of this with its 'version' system where all producers, MC's and Dj's have a crack at stylising or interpreting a tune at the same time. Sadly, dub/reggae had it's classic period from 1976-82, and I will not say it's dead. However, the 'version' system you speak of (which of course works for dub since it's basic source material is usually vocal reggae) is the 'remix' system in electronic music... There is this acceptance that the music is a vehicle for personal expression, communication, interaction. So the focus is around a particular persons 'version' as opposed to constantly seeking the creation of something new or unique. Some rabid followers of Richie Hawtin that produce music already have this in their heads...it's called their career? In this context .. the tyranny of minimal is not so dangerous. Its just the life of the music, growing, shifting and evolving. I guess you are right, however I don't see how going backwards 15-20 years and starting over without some kind of direction is progress...what I mean by this is that many entering the business/artform today are doing something they think is new, when there is a precedent that they don't see or hear. After 15 years of being into this music, I know it's happened before. I keep saying there is no news under the sun. Maybe all of this will evolve into something... -- fbk sleepengineering/absoloop US
(313) minimal suxs like dub
It's amazing . . does anyone like anything on this list. Maybe the 313 t-shirt should be .. don't like it on 313 .. beatless humour aside .. I was thinking the other day that we might be getting genre confused with technique. ie. minimal is a technique like dub is a technique Alot of the slash/techno/electronic music I hear nowadays can belong to a different genre depending on who you talk to, what tempo you play it at .. and possibly what medium you play it with. I'll bet if it's on vinyl its techno, downloaded it's electro and if you play it off a laptop then it's minimal . I mean seriously the repetitive complaints I keep hearing about laptop dj's or copy cat stylists .. and references to the same single dubstep producer is wearing me thin. I've been beat up around here before . for saying this, but the music is moving. It's doing new things, in a million different ways. Beatport is only one black hole of a dozen where new players can loose their credibility to the hype. It used to be Magazines, or lists like this. However nowadays you can pick your sound, lift you ideas from a global pool and drop your tracks back into the same pool. I honestly can't tell any more the difference between house, techno, techhouse, detriot, minimal or any other genre you might want to mention. For me genres change between bars of a track. cut out the high hats and it's techno, pull out the mids and its minimal. Take out the bass the highs sing some vocals and your in the middle of a trance track ?? Dub is a genre of music, but it's also a studio technique that can be transported across many different genres of music. The current era of music can mean everyone is a producer in their bedroom. So what I think we are hearing is people using the same sort of production techniques across similar tempo's and styles of music. What else are we too expect given the technology, history and culture of the music? I just think we might get more life out of electronic music if we start to look at some of the processes going on as the use of techniques as opposed to genreification followed by quick dismissal. Currently I am enjoying the sounds classified as minimal because they provide a group of tracks that enable me to play sets that contain a lot of spatial texture. The use of reverbs, delays, stripped out melody modes and monotonic rhythms enable out board sample layering and the use of off beats on the other deck to construct the type of sets I have wanted too for years. Lets face it every Dj wants to be producer with out having to do the hard work in the studio. The likes of Lee Perry lead the way by just dubbing an existing sound, opening the door for one knob wonders the world over. In this regard , yes, the use of minimalist techniques by many producers is tedious but no more than the 303 when it was flavour or the cow bell or siren or filters . etc etc. We listen to techno music, we listen to machines and plead desperately for soul. You can't have your drum machine and beat it too. .simon
Re: (313) minimal suxs like dub
I honestly can't tell any more the difference between house, techno, techhouse, detriot, minimal or any other genre you might want to mention. well, if it ain't made in detroit, by people from detroit, it probably ain't detroit. pretty straightforward there. i can't help you with the others. Lets face it every Dj wants to be producer with out having to do the hard work in the studio. That is not a fact. There are tons of DJs who subscribe to the David Mancuso school of DJing, or at least lean primarily that way. (I don't happen to be one of them) peace, frank dj mix archive: http://www.deejaycountzero.com
Re: (313) minimal suxs like dub
dont forget about mentioning brooklyn or berlin. and the ratio of clashing colors made in downtown la to the diameter of your pant cuff. On 4/5/08, duf duf [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It's amazing . . does anyone like anything on this list. Maybe the 313 t-shirt should be .. don't like it on 313 .. beatless humour aside .. I was thinking the other day that we might be getting genre confused with technique. ie. minimal is a technique like dub is a technique Alot of the slash/techno/electronic music I hear nowadays can belong to a different genre depending on who you talk to, what tempo you play it at .. and possibly what medium you play it with. I'll bet if it's on vinyl its techno, downloaded it's electro and if you play it off a laptop then it's minimal . I mean seriously the repetitive complaints I keep hearing about laptop dj's or copy cat stylists .. and references to the same single dubstep producer is wearing me thin. I've been beat up around here before . for saying this, but the music is moving. It's doing new things, in a million different ways. Beatport is only one black hole of a dozen where new players can loose their credibility to the hype. It used to be Magazines, or lists like this. However nowadays you can pick your sound, lift you ideas from a global pool and drop your tracks back into the same pool. I honestly can't tell any more the difference between house, techno, techhouse, detriot, minimal or any other genre you might want to mention. For me genres change between bars of a track. cut out the high hats and it's techno, pull out the mids and its minimal. Take out the bass the highs sing some vocals and your in the middle of a trance track ?? Dub is a genre of music, but it's also a studio technique that can be transported across many different genres of music. The current era of music can mean everyone is a producer in their bedroom. So what I think we are hearing is people using the same sort of production techniques across similar tempo's and styles of music. What else are we too expect given the technology, history and culture of the music? I just think we might get more life out of electronic music if we start to look at some of the processes going on as the use of techniques as opposed to genreification followed by quick dismissal. Currently I am enjoying the sounds classified as minimal because they provide a group of tracks that enable me to play sets that contain a lot of spatial texture. The use of reverbs, delays, stripped out melody modes and monotonic rhythms enable out board sample layering and the use of off beats on the other deck to construct the type of sets I have wanted too for years. Lets face it every Dj wants to be producer with out having to do the hard work in the studio. The likes of Lee Perry lead the way by just dubbing an existing sound, opening the door for one knob wonders the world over. In this regard , yes, the use of minimalist techniques by many producers is tedious but no more than the 303 when it was flavour or the cow bell or siren or filters . etc etc. We listen to techno music, we listen to machines and plead desperately for soul. You can't have your drum machine and beat it too. .simon -- --- Michael Kuszynski [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.planerecordings.com New York, NY
