Re: [313] Underground (was Re: [313] Pooh-blahs)
RE: Not necessarily my rebuttal, but an interesting one, from Jeremy Gilbert and Ewan Pearson quoted without permission from "Discographies - Dance Music, Culture, and the Politics of Sound": "The only reason for staying underground is that in relation to dominant structures of power, you are weak. To celebrate that weakness rather than to try to overcome it is to concede social authority to those dominant discourses. It is, in fact, to _choose_ too remain in a subordinate position and to condemn others to a similar position." Very nice use of that quote. I have yet to read that book but it just went to the top of my list. That statement really puts all this "keep it real, keep it underground" bullshit to the test. I don't think there are too many artists who wouldn't jump at the chance of having some kind of chart/popular success. If you really want to stay underground don't make a website, don't tell anyone about your music (or any other artists), don't try to distribute, basically don't disseminate any info about who you are or what you're doing. The minute you put up a web site you are trying to get some kind of popularity. I think the REAL underground can only be witnessed first hand, and not a lot of acts out there go this route because it's hard (if not impossible) to make a living doing it. I'm not saying that everyone is in it for the money but anyone who records likes to see their records sell. It's the artist who doesn't record their work in one form or another (for whatever reason) that is truely underground. Imagine a DJ that only plays white label test pressings that have no intention of ever being released for sale or promo. That is a strong statement. Being underground is a very radical stance to take. The problem is that the word has become a way to declare yourself "hipper" than others. The way that most people use "underground" just means that their favorite artist isn't as widely known as Britney Spears. But it doesn't nessacarily make their fav. any more talented either. Fred From: "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, <313@hyperreal.org> CC: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: [313] Underground (was Re: [313] Pooh-blahs) Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 13:08:38 -0400 on 8/16/00 12:22 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > I appericate the fact you are 'helping' your friends , but if you consider a > spot on t.r.l. @mtv helping thats just a > combitnation of pop music tatics (self promotion) and a painfully evident > lack of knowledge concerning what underground is , how it is , and why it > is. Not necessarily my rebuttal, but an interesting one, from Jeremy Gilbert and Ewan Pearson quoted without permission from "Discographies - Dance Music, Culture, and the Politics of Sound": "The only reason for staying underground is that in relation to dominant structures of power, you are weak. To celebrate that weakness rather than to try to overcome it is to concede social authority to those dominant discourses. It is, in fact, to _choose_ too remain in a subordinate position and to condemn others to a similar position." Hmmm. The book is a recommended read for those who enjoy theoretical cultural critique and analysis. Largely UK-centric in its approach to politics, though. A bit of a polar opposite in approach to Dan's "Techno Rebels" (or a nice companion volume, depending on how you look at it.) -- There4IM - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com
Re: [313] Underground (was Re: [313] Pooh-blahs)
I think 'underground' doesn't mean that you can't sell records, or sign with a label. What's exciting to me is the stuff that happens outside the traditional manufacturing, distribution and publicity systems. Is Watts Music 'underground?' or Sonic Groove? No. They're brick and mortar businesses whose survival is dependent upon them operating as good capitalists. But they are 'underground' in that that sell outside the retail channels, to specialist stores. They're way out at the edge of things. And there is a consequent strain when people try to make the leap (Detroit Grand Pubahs?), because to really play in that larger mass arena you have to tap into a whole new structure for distribution. kent williams -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.mp3.com/chaircrusher -- tunes http://www.live365.com/cgi-bin/directory.cgi?autostart=chaircrusher -- mix
Re: [313] Underground (was Re: [313] Pooh-blahs)
The Discography quote is interesting (must read the book) but it kinda reads like a cop-out. It's a standard angle imo. Of course, underground has been appropriated as a marketing tool. Remember those words 'alternative' and 'progressive'? But just coz a language has been stolen doesn't mean you can't still own it. When I think of underground i think of staying true to yourself and the music you are trying to make, or if your are playing others' music... getting in touch with what they are about and understanding where they r coming from and staying true to the way they want to be represented. underground is close to the roots. When i think of underground I always think of it as an utopian place, or state of being. and i think of the curtis mayfield track... emma mee-thod -it's in the way that you groove it-
Re: [313] Underground (was Re: [313] Pooh-blahs)
Quoting Webster: Main Entry: 1un·der·ground Pronunciation: "&n-d&r-'graund Function: adverb Date: 1571 1 : beneath the surface of the earth 2 : in or into hiding or secret operation Main Entry: 2underground Pronunciation: '&n-d&r-" Function: noun Date: 1594 1 : a subterranean space or channel 2 : an underground city railway system 3 a : a movement or group organized in strict secrecy among citizens especially in an occupied country for maintaining communications, popular solidarity, and concerted resistive action pending liberation b : a clandestine conspiratorial organization set up for revolutionary or other disruptive purposes especially against a civil order c : an unofficial, unsanctioned, or illegal but informal movement or group; especially : a usually avant-garde group or movement that functions outside the establishment Main Entry: 3un·der·ground Pronunciation: '&n-d&r-"graund Function: adjective Date: 1610 1 : being, growing, operating, or situated below the surface of the ground 2 : conducted by secret means 3 a : existing outside the establishment reputation> b : existing outside the purview of tax collectors or statisticians 4 a : produced or published outside the establishment especially by the avant-garde b : of or relating to the avant-garde underground theater> Main Entry: Underground Railroad Function: noun Date: 1842 : a system of cooperation among active antislavery people in the U.S. before 1863 by which fugitive slaves were secretly helped to reach the North or Canada -- called also Underground Railway I think we are just arguing over the perceived definition of a word now. Which means that someone had to get a definition. (that underground railroad was just for fun!) Anyways, read the definitions before you start calling someone a "sell-out" or what have you. If you like or dislike the music, that's where you should stand, not telling them they can't promote themselves on this list. If you can give your opinion, then they can self-promote. Even if you think they are "selling-out", that's their right. Regards, Dennis. From: Kent williams <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: FRED MCMURRY <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> CC: [EMAIL PROTECTED], 313@hyperreal.org Subject: Re: [313] Underground (was Re: [313] Pooh-blahs) Date: Wed, 16 Aug 2000 18:44:44 -0500 (CDT) I think 'underground' doesn't mean that you can't sell records, or sign with a label. What's exciting to me is the stuff that happens outside the traditional manufacturing, distribution and publicity systems. Is Watts Music 'underground?' or Sonic Groove? No. They're brick and mortar businesses whose survival is dependent upon them operating as good capitalists. But they are 'underground' in that that sell outside the retail channels, to specialist stores. They're way out at the edge of things. And there is a consequent strain when people try to make the leap (Detroit Grand Pubahs?), because to really play in that larger mass arena you have to tap into a whole new structure for distribution. kent williams -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.mp3.com/chaircrusher -- tunes http://www.live365.com/cgi-bin/directory.cgi?autostart=chaircrusher -- mix - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com
Re: [313] Underground (was Re: [313] Pooh-blahs)
Alright, let me try to clarify what I mean. Currently with the rise of popularity in electronic music more and more artists are just situated on a rising curve of how popular or known they are. If they are low on the curve it doesn't nesacarily make them underoground. I've seen some artists who do one time events...like Buhdist sand artand never repeat them or record them. They are lost in time, except for your memory of it. That, I believe, is underground. I'm not saying it's better than what anybody else is doing. Now for some of these points (if we are to be all on the same page): a movement or group organized in strict secrecy among citizens Not all so-called "underground" artists operate in strict secrecy. UR sort of does (with their personas) but they still dessimenate info to "get the word out" a usually avant-garde group or movement that functions outside the establishment Selling product isn't really working outside the establishment. Remember the establishment can be the so-called underground dance movement. Anyways, read the definitions before you start calling someone a "sell-out" or what have you. I don't know if this was directed to my posting but I don't think I called anyone a sell-out. You can't really be a sell-out unless you go against your own morals and rules that you set down for yourself. If you like or dislike the music, that's where you should stand, not telling them they can't promote themselves on this list. Promote away, I think it's great if people become rich and famous for sticking to their guns and believing in what they can do, but_only_if they want to become rich and famous through their work. Even if you think they are "selling-out", that's their right. It doesn't matter what anybody but the artist thinks. I don't know what any particular artist's intention is unless they tell me. So how can I or anyone else judge an artist unless they make public their intentions? But they are 'underground' in that that sell outside the retail channels, to specialist stores. They're way out at the edge of things. Again, selling product isn't really working outside the establishment. How can exchanging money for product be regarded as underground? They may be way out at the edge of things but they are still working within the established way of doing business. And believe me, selling records, owning a record label and being an artist who sells records and signs contracts is a business. there is a consequent strain when people try to make the leap (Detroit Grand Pubahs?),because to really play in that larger mass arena you have to tap into a whole new structure for distribution. It's not really a new structure it's just more complicated and has more legal bullshit. It may seem new because it's bigger and there are more people who want a piece of the cake. Really, I think to use the term "underground" is just trying to romanticize the image of lesser known artists. I'm not slighting the efforts of artists by saying whether they are or are not "underground" because I know it's hard work no matter to what degree to which they are recognized by the public. What's exciting to me is the stuff that happens outside the traditional manufacturing, distribution and publicity systems. I don't know what is exciting to you because you didn't mention any examples but if you record a tune, press it, distribute it even to a small specialty shop and put some time and energy into getting publicity for it...that is still working within traditional system. It's just a smaller scale with less money available to make it work. I don't think that makes it underground. That's my point. Fred P.S. There has to be some kind of agreement as to what underground means other wise we can all argue our points until we are blue in the face and still not agree and this thread will go on until someone calls me or someone else a Nazi or Hitler:) From: "Dennis Donohue" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] CC: [EMAIL PROTECTED], 313@hyperreal.org Subject: Re: [313] Underground (was Re: [313] Pooh-blahs) Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 11:07:22 CDT Quoting Webster: Main Entry: 1un·der·ground Pronunciation: "&n-d&r-'graund Function: adverb Date: 1571 1 : beneath the surface of the earth 2 : in or into hiding or secret operation Main Entry: 2underground Pronunciation: '&n-d&r-" Function: noun Date: 1594 1 : a subterranean space or channel 2 : an underground city railway system 3 a : a movement or group organized in strict secrecy among citizens especially in an occupied country for maintaining communications, popular solidarity, and concerted resistive action pend
Re: [313] Underground (was Re: [313] Pooh-blahs)
You are all nazi's and I am hitler. Next... At 06:03 PM 8/17/00 GMT, you wrote: >Alright, let me try to clarify what I mean. Currently with the rise of >popularity in electronic music more and more artists are just situated on a >rising curve of how popular or known they are. If they are low on the curve >it doesn't nesacarily make them underoground. I've seen some artists who do >one time events...like Buhdist sand artand never repeat them or record >them. They are lost in time, except for your memory of it. That, I believe, >is underground. I'm not saying it's better than what anybody else is doing. >Now for some of these points (if we are to be all on the same page): > >>a movement or group organized in strict secrecy among citizens > >Not all so-called "underground" artists operate in strict secrecy. UR sort >of does (with their personas) but they still dessimenate info to "get the >word out" > >>a usually avant-garde group or movement that functions outside the >>establishment > >Selling product isn't really working outside the establishment. Remember the >establishment can be the so-called underground dance movement. > >>Anyways, read the definitions before you start calling someone a >>"sell-out" or what have you. > >I don't know if this was directed to my posting but I don't think I called >anyone a sell-out. You can't really be a sell-out unless you go against your >own morals and rules that you set down for yourself. > >>If you like or dislike the music, that's where you should stand, not >>telling them they can't promote themselves on this list. > >Promote away, I think it's great if people become rich and famous for >sticking to their guns and believing in what they can do, but_only_if they >want to become rich and famous through their work. > >>Even if you think they are "selling-out", that's their right. > >It doesn't matter what anybody but the artist thinks. I don't know what any >particular artist's intention is unless they tell me. So how can I or anyone >else judge an artist unless they make public their intentions? > >>>But they are 'underground' in that that sell outside the retail channels, >>>to specialist stores. They're way out at the edge of things. > >Again, selling product isn't really working outside the establishment. How >can exchanging money for product be regarded as underground? They may be way >out at the edge of things but they are still working within the established >way of doing business. And believe me, selling records, owning a record >label and being an artist who sells records and signs contracts is a >business. > >>>there is a consequent strain when people try to make the leap (Detroit >>>Grand Pubahs?),because to really play in that larger mass arena you have >>>to tap into a whole new structure for distribution. > >It's not really a new structure it's just more complicated and has more >legal bullshit. It may seem new because it's bigger and there are more >people who want a piece of the cake. > >Really, I think to use the term "underground" is just trying to romanticize >the image of lesser known artists. I'm not slighting the efforts of artists >by saying whether they are or are not "underground" because I know it's hard >work no matter to what degree to which they are recognized by the public. > >>>What's exciting to me is the stuff that happens outside the traditional >>>manufacturing, distribution and publicity systems. > >I don't know what is exciting to you because you didn't mention any examples >but if you record a tune, press it, distribute it even to a small specialty >shop and put some time and energy into getting publicity for it...that is >still working within traditional system. It's just a smaller scale with less >money available to make it work. >I don't think that makes it underground. > >That's my point. > >Fred >P.S. There has to be some kind of agreement as to what underground means >other wise we can all argue our points until we are blue in the face and >still not agree and this thread will go on until someone calls me or someone >else a Nazi or Hitler:) > >>From: "Dennis Donohue" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >>To: [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] >>CC: [EMAIL PROTECTED], 313@hyperreal.org >>Subject: Re: [313] Underground (was Re: [313] Pooh-blahs) >>Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 11:07:22 CDT >&g
