RE: (313) what was the first dub-techno record ever?
Good question! I always view the starting point of that strand of music as being Quadrant's Infinition on Planet E, but for reasons I would find hard to back up in an argument R-Tyme's Illusion often sounds like a dub-techno record to me. Why? Well, practically every early techno record was produced with no noticable delay or reverb on any of the sounds - the music sounded as if it was pressed directly on the surface of the vinyl. However the only early techno track I can think of which does use delay and reverb to give a sense of space between the listener and the sounds on the record is Illusion, which uses the dub-techno method of focusing the listener's attention on a simple chord sequence and then allowing the chords to drift off into the ether. I can't think of any earlier record right now that uses the same chord drift technique so R-Tyme's Illusion would be my pick... Brendan | -Original Message- | From: Odeluga, Ken [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] | Sent: Friday, October 11, 2002 7:12 AM | To: Phonopsia; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Ca; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Org | Subject: RE: (313) what was the first techno record ever? | | | OK, how abt a more specific question: What was the first 'Dub-techno' | record? (Deliberately vague.) | | I'm *not* assuming Mortiz von Oswald was involved either! | | Ken | | Audax: | I completely agree on all of your points, and I wont post about it | again. Its something I will look into doing when I have time to | muck about. | | For something like this, you definately have to go to the sources. | | Tristan: | | I think we can safely say this is not the right list on which to | undertakethis project. Perhaps you should set up your website with | these questions,
RE: (313) what was the first dub-techno record ever?
Memo from Alex Bond of PricewaterhouseCoopers Start of message text Alright, I'll bite Dub - techno? Never heard of it, but it has to be Eddy Grant's 'Timewarp' surely...? (1981) Brendan Nelson [EMAIL PROTECTED] on 11/10/2002 09:28:48 Please respond to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To:Odeluga, Ken [EMAIL PROTECTED], Phonopsia [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] Ca [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] Org 313@hyperreal.org cc: Subject:RE: (313) what was the first dub-techno record ever? Good question! I always view the starting point of that strand of music as being Quadrant's Infinition on Planet E, but for reasons I would find hard to back up in an argument R-Tyme's Illusion often sounds like a dub-techno record to me. Why? Well, practically every early techno record was produced with no noticable delay or reverb on any of the sounds - the music sounded as if it was pressed directly on the surface of the vinyl. However the only early techno track I can think of which does use delay and reverb to give a sense of space between the listener and the sounds on the record is Illusion, which uses the dub-techno method of focusing the listener's attention on a simple chord sequence and then allowing the chords to drift off into the ether. I can't think of any earlier record right now that uses the same chord drift technique so R-Tyme's Illusion would be my pick... Brendan | -Original Message- | From: Odeluga, Ken [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] | Sent: Friday, October 11, 2002 7:12 AM | To: Phonopsia; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Ca; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Org | Subject: RE: (313) what was the first techno record ever? | | | OK, how abt a more specific question: What was the first 'Dub-techno' | record? (Deliberately vague.) | | I'm *not* assuming Mortiz von Oswald was involved either! | | Ken | | Audax: | I completely agree on all of your points, and I wont post about it | again. Its something I will look into doing when I have time to | muck about. | | For something like this, you definately have to go to the sources. | | Tristan: | | I think we can safely say this is not the right list on which to | undertakethis project. Perhaps you should set up your website with | these questions, - End of message text This e-mail is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, please notify the author by replying to this e-mail. If you are not the intended recipient you must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. The principal place of business of PricewaterhouseCoopers and its associate partnerships is 1 Embankment Place, London WC2N 6RH where lists of the partners' names are available for inspection. All partners in the associate partnerships are authorised to conduct business as agents of, and all contracts for services to clients are with, PricewaterhouseCoopers. The UK firm of PricewaterhouseCoopers is authorised by the Financial Services Authority for investment business activities. PricewaterhouseCoopers is a member of the world-wide PricewaterhouseCoopers organisation. PricewaterhouseCoopers may monitor outgoing and incoming e-mails and other telecommunications on its e-mail and telecommunications systems. By replying to this e-mail you give your consent to such monitoring. Visit our website http://www.pwcglobal.com _ The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or privileged material. Any review, retransmission, dissemination or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon, this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer.
RE: (313) what was the first dub-techno record ever?
Brendan - sounds like you were thinking abt this before I asked! ... so no one thinks the early Basic Channel tracks were a definitive beginning of a dub/techno hybrid? For me, whilst something like 'Lyot's got the sea of reverb, it just hasn't got the 'stillness' (best word I can think of right now.) ... -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, October 11, 2002 9:43 AM To: 313@hyperreal.org Subject: RE: (313) what was the first dub-techno record ever? Memo from Alex Bond of PricewaterhouseCoopers Start of message text Alright, I'll bite Dub - techno? Never heard of it, but it has to be Eddy Grant's 'Timewarp' surely...? (1981) Brendan Nelson [EMAIL PROTECTED] on 11/10/2002 09:28:48 Please respond to [EMAIL PROTECTED] To:Odeluga, Ken [EMAIL PROTECTED], Phonopsia [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] Ca [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] Org 313@hyperreal.org cc: Subject:RE: (313) what was the first dub-techno record ever? Good question! I always view the starting point of that strand of music as being Quadrant's Infinition on Planet E, but for reasons I would find hard to back up in an argument R-Tyme's Illusion often sounds like a dub-techno record to me. Why? Well, practically every early techno record was produced with no noticable delay or reverb on any of the sounds - the music sounded as if it was pressed directly on the surface of the vinyl. However the only early techno track I can think of which does use delay and reverb to give a sense of space between the listener and the sounds on the record is Illusion, which uses the dub-techno method of focusing the listener's attention on a simple chord sequence and then allowing the chords to drift off into the ether. I can't think of any earlier record right now that uses the same chord drift technique so R-Tyme's Illusion would be my pick... Brendan | -Original Message- | From: Odeluga, Ken [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] | Sent: Friday, October 11, 2002 7:12 AM | To: Phonopsia; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Ca; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Org | Subject: RE: (313) what was the first techno record ever? | | | OK, how abt a more specific question: What was the first 'Dub-techno' | record? (Deliberately vague.) | | I'm *not* assuming Mortiz von Oswald was involved either! | | Ken | | Audax: | I completely agree on all of your points, and I wont post about it | again. Its something I will look into doing when I have time to | muck about. | | For something like this, you definately have to go to the sources. | | Tristan: | | I think we can safely say this is not the right list on which to | undertakethis project. Perhaps you should set up your website with | these questions, - End of message text This e-mail is intended only for the person to whom it is addressed. If an addressing or transmission error has misdirected this e-mail, please notify the author by replying to this e-mail. If you are not the intended recipient you must not use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. The principal place of business of PricewaterhouseCoopers and its associate partnerships is 1 Embankment Place, London WC2N 6RH where lists of the partners' names are available for inspection. All partners in the associate partnerships are authorised to conduct business as agents of, and all contracts for services to clients are with, PricewaterhouseCoopers. The UK firm of PricewaterhouseCoopers is authorised by the Financial Services Authority for investment business activities. PricewaterhouseCoopers is a member of the world-wide PricewaterhouseCoopers organisation. PricewaterhouseCoopers may monitor outgoing and incoming e-mails and other telecommunications on its e-mail and telecommunications systems. By replying to this e-mail you give your consent to such monitoring. Visit our website http://www.pwcglobal.com _ The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain confidential and/or privileged material. Any review, retransmission, dissemination or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon, this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from any computer.
RE: (313) what was the first dub-techno record ever?
I do think that the Basic Channel records were the definitive beginning of the techno-dub hybrid, but I often find myself trying to think of earlier tracks that combine that stillness (I know what you mean about the English vocabulary being insufficient to describe in detail the effects that sort of music has on the listener!) with the sort of spacial production in techno that BC subsequently perfected. With that in mind, I'd definitely say Quadrant's Infinition, which came out (AFAIK) before the Basic Channel records but which sounds like a test run for the BC sound, what with the use of delay and filters to add a bit of space to the main synth chords. But you could argue that the key concept that initially defined dub-techno was that of origin unknown sounds, sounds which you *couldn't* imagine or visualise coming from a particular machine. I doubt I'm explaining myself very well, but if you listen to Infinition you can practically see Carl and Moritz with a Kurzweil or whatever, manipulating the VCF slider, while if you jump forward in time to Radiance or Quadrant Dub you really can't picture the devices producing the sounds at all. In that sense, I'd agree with you about the Lyot track even though it doesn't have the stillness! Brendan | -Original Message- | From: Odeluga, Ken [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] | Sent: Friday, October 11, 2002 11:20 AM | To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; 313@hyperreal.org | Subject: RE: (313) what was the first dub-techno record ever? | | | Brendan - sounds like you were thinking abt this before I asked! | | ... so no one thinks the early Basic Channel tracks were a definitive | beginning of a dub/techno hybrid? | | For me, whilst something like 'Lyot's got the sea of reverb, it | just hasn't | got the 'stillness' (best word I can think of right now.) | | ... | | -Original Message- | From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] | Sent: Friday, October 11, 2002 9:43 AM | To: 313@hyperreal.org | Subject: RE: (313) what was the first dub-techno record ever? | | | Memo from Alex Bond of PricewaterhouseCoopers | | Start of message text | | Alright, I'll bite | | Dub - techno? Never heard of it, but it has to be Eddy Grant's 'Timewarp' | surely...? (1981) | | | | | Brendan Nelson [EMAIL PROTECTED] on 11/10/2002 09:28:48 | | Please respond to [EMAIL PROTECTED] | To:Odeluga, Ken [EMAIL PROTECTED], Phonopsia |[EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] Ca [EMAIL PROTECTED], |[EMAIL PROTECTED] Org 313@hyperreal.org | cc: | | | Subject:RE: (313) what was the first dub-techno record ever? | | Good question! I always view the starting point of that strand | of music as | being Quadrant's Infinition on Planet E, but for reasons I would find | hard | to back up in an argument R-Tyme's Illusion often sounds like a | dub-techno | record to me. | | Why? Well, practically every early techno record was produced with no | noticable delay or reverb on any of the sounds - the music | sounded as if it | was pressed directly on the surface of the vinyl. However the only early | techno track I can think of which does use delay and reverb to | give a sense | of space between the listener and the sounds on the record is Illusion, | which uses the dub-techno method of focusing the listener's | attention on a | simple chord sequence and then allowing the chords to drift off into the | ether. | | I can't think of any earlier record right now that uses the same chord | drift technique so R-Tyme's Illusion would be my pick... | | Brendan | | | -Original Message- | | From: Odeluga, Ken [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] | | Sent: Friday, October 11, 2002 7:12 AM | | To: Phonopsia; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Ca; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Org | | Subject: RE: (313) what was the first techno record ever? | | | | | | OK, how abt a more specific question: What was the first 'Dub-techno' | | record? (Deliberately vague.) | | | | I'm *not* assuming Mortiz von Oswald was involved either! | | | | Ken | | | | Audax: | | I completely agree on all of your points, and I wont post about it | | again. Its something I will look into doing when I have time to | | muck about. | | | | For something like this, you definately have to go to the sources. | | | | Tristan: | | | | I think we can safely say this is not the right list on which to | | undertakethis project. Perhaps you should set up your website with | | these questions, | | | | | - End of message text | | This e-mail is intended only for the person to whom it is | addressed. If an addressing or transmission error has | misdirected this e-mail, please notify the author by replying to | this e-mail. If you are not the intended recipient you must not | use, disclose, copy, print or rely on this e-mail. | | The principal place of business of PricewaterhouseCoopers and | its associate partnerships is 1 Embankment Place, London | WC2N 6RH where lists
RE: (313) what was the first dub-techno record ever?
Odeluga, Ken wrote on Fri, 11 Oct 2002 about following: ... so no one thinks the early Basic Channel tracks were a definitive beginning of a dub/techno hybrid? just a quick note that the orb has been doing this ambient/house/techno/dub -hybrid for a long time. (even before BC). sakke -- random rants and links at: http://www.arabuusimiehet.com/sakke/
RE: (313) what was the first dub-techno record ever?
Ok. That would make sense, given that the Orb collected a couple of obscure von Oswald tracks for one of their comps in '96 I think but what Orb records are you thinking of in particular? k -Original Message- From: Sakari Karipuro [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, October 11, 2002 12:15 PM To: 313 Subject: RE: (313) what was the first dub-techno record ever? Odeluga, Ken wrote on Fri, 11 Oct 2002 about following: ... so no one thinks the early Basic Channel tracks were a definitive beginning of a dub/techno hybrid? just a quick note that the orb has been doing this ambient/house/techno/dub -hybrid for a long time. (even before BC). sakke -- random rants and links at: http://www.arabuusimiehet.com/sakke/
RE: (313) what was the first dub-techno record ever?
Odeluga, Ken wrote on Fri, 11 Oct 2002 about following: Ok. That would make sense, given that the Orb collected a couple of obscure von Oswald tracks for one of their comps in '96 I think but what Orb records are you thinking of in particular? most of the stuff they did is more ambienty/ambient-housey but check perpetual dawn (91), blue room(92)(with Jah Wobble on bass, at least on 12), towers of dub (92) - doh, just check the first two albums; nevertheless it's difficult today to go say that their music is techno or techno dub; they definitely were (and still are influenced by dub; and definitely don't sound dub in similar way as BC does. some of their tracks are more like traditional dub and others more 4/4 with heavy bass and some delays and reverbs and stuff. * the orb's adventures beyond the ultraworld 1991 * the orb - u.f. orb 1992 oh and do check the assassin 12 by the orb - just for the delay and 4/4 action. very hypnotic track. would fit very well in the end of some BC set. also in somewhat similar style as the orb's there is excellent (then categorized as soundtrack dub) album 360 degrees by Dread Zone from 1993 on creation records, not so relevant perhaps when comparing to BC but electronic music/dub mixed together from about the same era. as far as i know they have been really popular in goa/psychedelic scene; nevertheless one of my favourite albums, and their latest album Sound is ok too. i haven't heard what they've done in between these two records.. sakke -- random rants and links at: http://www.arabuusimiehet.com/sakke/
RE: (313) what was the first dub-techno record ever?
Ah, but tracks like blue room and perpetual dawn have only a tenuous link with techno music - they're more like ambient dub. (I used to work in London's only specialist ambient record shop, so I can be a bit of a trainspotter when it comes to the UK ambient scene of the late 80s/early 90s!) So while you're right that the Orb did incorporate dub production and composition techniques into electronic music, I'd say that the closest they got to predating the modern dub-techno sound was the original mix of A Huge Evergrowing Pulsating Brain That Rules From The Centre Of The Ultraworld; even though the dub influences are less explicit than in Towers of Dub or Blue Room, they're still there, and the track definitely leans in the techno direction also, rather than the purely ambient or breakbeat-house directions the Orb subsequently went into. Also it was basically the first track they put out, so it predates everything else The Orb did. I used to be a huge Orb fan back in the day - listening to any of the tracks from their first album fills me with nostalgia :) Brendan | -Original Message- | From: Sakari Karipuro [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] | Sent: Friday, October 11, 2002 1:53 PM | To: Odeluga, Ken | Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Org | Subject: RE: (313) what was the first dub-techno record ever? | | | Odeluga, Ken wrote on Fri, 11 Oct 2002 about following: | | Ok. That would make sense, given that the Orb collected a | couple of obscure | von Oswald tracks for one of their comps in '96 I think | but what Orb | records are you thinking of in particular? | | most of the stuff they did is more ambienty/ambient-housey but check | perpetual dawn (91), blue room(92)(with Jah Wobble on bass, at | least on 12), towers of dub (92) - doh, just check the first two | albums; nevertheless it's difficult today to go say that their music is | techno or techno dub; they definitely were (and still are influenced by | dub; and definitely don't sound dub in similar way as BC does. some of | their tracks are more like traditional dub and others more 4/4 with | heavy bass and some delays and reverbs and stuff. | | * the orb's adventures beyond the ultraworld 1991 | * the orb - u.f. orb 1992 | | oh and do check the assassin 12 by the orb - just for the delay | and 4/4 action. very hypnotic track. would fit very well in the end of | some BC set. | | also in somewhat similar style as the orb's there is excellent (then | categorized as soundtrack dub) album 360 degrees by Dread Zone from | 1993 on creation records, not so relevant perhaps when comparing to BC | but electronic music/dub mixed together from about the same era. as far | as i know they have been really popular in goa/psychedelic scene; | nevertheless one of my favourite albums, and their latest album | Sound is ok too. i haven't heard what they've done in between these | two records.. | | | sakke | -- | random rants and links at: | http://www.arabuusimiehet.com/sakke/ |
RE: (313) what was the first dub-techno record ever?
Right ... (he says, realization dawning) and 'Quadrant' was von Oswald, Craig and Ernesto? Sorry to be the dork - but is it still available? Brendan, you're descriptions are spot. You obviously think abt your music a lot. As for me, I spend my time grasping for words to describe what I'd think (if I had the words) ;^) -Original Message- From: Brendan Nelson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, October 11, 2002 11:56 AM To: Odeluga, Ken; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; 313@hyperreal.org Subject: RE: (313) what was the first dub-techno record ever? I do think that the Basic Channel records were the definitive beginning of the techno-dub hybrid, but I often find myself trying to think of earlier tracks that combine that stillness (I know what you mean about the English vocabulary being insufficient to describe in detail the effects that sort of music has on the listener!) with the sort of spacial production in techno that BC subsequently perfected. With that in mind, I'd definitely say Quadrant's Infinition, which came out (AFAIK) before the Basic Channel records but which sounds like a test run for the BC sound, what with the use of delay and filters to add a bit of space to the main synth chords. But you could argue that the key concept that initially defined dub-techno was that of origin unknown sounds, sounds which you *couldn't* imagine or visualise coming from a particular machine. I doubt I'm explaining myself very well, but if you listen to Infinition you can practically see Carl and Moritz with a Kurzweil or whatever, manipulating the VCF slider, while if you jump forward in time to Radiance or Quadrant Dub you really can't picture the devices producing the sounds at all. In that sense, I'd agree with you about the Lyot track even though it doesn't have the stillness! Brendan | -Original Message- | From: Odeluga, Ken [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] | Sent: Friday, October 11, 2002 11:20 AM | To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; 313@hyperreal.org | Subject: RE: (313) what was the first dub-techno record ever? | | | Brendan - sounds like you were thinking abt this before I asked! | | ... so no one thinks the early Basic Channel tracks were a definitive | beginning of a dub/techno hybrid? | | For me, whilst something like 'Lyot's got the sea of reverb, it | just hasn't | got the 'stillness' (best word I can think of right now.) | | ... | | -Original Message- | From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] | Sent: Friday, October 11, 2002 9:43 AM | To: 313@hyperreal.org | Subject: RE: (313) what was the first dub-techno record ever? | | | Memo from Alex Bond of PricewaterhouseCoopers | | Start of message text | | Alright, I'll bite | | Dub - techno? Never heard of it, but it has to be Eddy Grant's 'Timewarp' | surely...? (1981) | | | | | Brendan Nelson [EMAIL PROTECTED] on 11/10/2002 09:28:48 | | Please respond to [EMAIL PROTECTED] | To:Odeluga, Ken [EMAIL PROTECTED], Phonopsia |[EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] Ca [EMAIL PROTECTED], |[EMAIL PROTECTED] Org 313@hyperreal.org | cc: | | | Subject:RE: (313) what was the first dub-techno record ever? | | Good question! I always view the starting point of that strand | of music as | being Quadrant's Infinition on Planet E, but for reasons I would find | hard | to back up in an argument R-Tyme's Illusion often sounds like a | dub-techno | record to me. | | Why? Well, practically every early techno record was produced with no | noticable delay or reverb on any of the sounds - the music | sounded as if it | was pressed directly on the surface of the vinyl. However the only early | techno track I can think of which does use delay and reverb to | give a sense | of space between the listener and the sounds on the record is Illusion, | which uses the dub-techno method of focusing the listener's | attention on a | simple chord sequence and then allowing the chords to drift off into the | ether. | | I can't think of any earlier record right now that uses the same chord | drift technique so R-Tyme's Illusion would be my pick... | | Brendan | | | -Original Message- | | From: Odeluga, Ken [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] | | Sent: Friday, October 11, 2002 7:12 AM | | To: Phonopsia; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Ca; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Org | | Subject: RE: (313) what was the first techno record ever? | | | | | | OK, how abt a more specific question: What was the first 'Dub-techno' | | record? (Deliberately vague.) | | | | I'm *not* assuming Mortiz von Oswald was involved either! | | | | Ken | | | | Audax: | | I completely agree on all of your points, and I wont post about it | | again. Its something I will look into doing when I have time to | | muck about. | | | | For something like this, you definately have to go to the sources. | | | | Tristan: | | | | I think we can safely say this is not the right list on which to | | undertakethis project. Perhaps you should set up your website
RE: (313) what was the first dub-techno record ever?
Brendan Nelson wrote on Fri, 11 Oct 2002 about following: Ah, but tracks like blue room and perpetual dawn have only a tenuous link with techno music - they're more like ambient dub. (I used to work in for me ambient is usually music with no beats or relatively quiet beats; blue room actually has really slamming club beats so i think it's not fair to say it's ambient... and perpetual dawn is more dub than techno; but i think i said what you are saying above already in my post :) sakke -- random rants and links at: http://www.arabuusimiehet.com/sakke/
