Re: Survey on 4D’s strategy for implementing Preemptive Processing / worker processes

2017-02-22 Thread Robert ListMail via 4D_Tech 
James, when 4D is keeping the Postgres DB updated what mechanism is used? On 
the same machine, LAN or using a SOAP call that goes over the internet?

Thanks,

R

Sent from my iPhone

> On Feb 22, 2017, at 10:23 AM, James Crate via 4D_Tech <4d_tech@lists.4d.com> 
> wrote:
> 
> 4D pushes data to PostgreSQL, or retrieves data from PostgreSQL, based on 
> either user-triggered actions or periodic task execution.

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Re: Old doesn't work with object fields

2017-02-22 Thread David Adams via 4D_Tech 
On Thu, Feb 23, 2017 at 1:45 PM, Keisuke Miyako via 4D_Tech <
4d_tech@lists.4d.com> wrote:

> while I love discussing feature requests,


You make a good point about feature requests, but I've got another point of
view. Sometimes, it's better for 4D to implement a feature than for us to
implement it. In the case of a meta-object/extended attributes for form
objects, forms, fields, tables, etc., there are possible solutions already.
Sure, you can write that sort of code. But here's the thing, to do that
*you already have to have a pretty solid understanding of how to do that
and why.* People that work exclusively in 4D aren't necessarily likely to
already have that knowledge (how would they?) or to invent it (inventing
stuff is hard and rare.) If its in the box, it's easy to sick your toe in,
experiment with and go from there.

Does 4D Engineering always get it right on figuring out what to prioritize.
No, no they do not. Sometimes they give us totally awesome stuff I never
would have thought to ask for, sometimes I'm left scratching my head.
Sometimes they miss an opportunity. Do you know the first time I heard the
idea of "local form variables" (what we have today with form object names)
brought up? It was over 25 years ago. What if we *had* gotten that feature
25 years ago? How many people use it now that never even realized it was
missing? Lots. At the time, the idea was mocked. (Not sure why, it always
seemed like a good idea on the face of it.)

I guess my (hopefully useful) point is that by implementing something
nicely (like CALL PROCES, CALL FORM and C_OBJECT to a lesser degree), lots
of people can take advantage of them. So, low price of admission for doing
something useful and doing it well. Isn't that what 4D's all about? If the
price is "you already have to understand this well enough to write it
yourself in tools not quite written for that purpose" or "you have to write
it using a plug-in", well, you don't really make 4D as good as it could be.

Meta-objects/extended attributes/custom dictionaries are *fundamentally*
useful and would make 4D *instantly* better for all developers, not just
the developers with the background, time, and inclination to write their
own system. Also, then you would have skill and code transferability
between projects. A new developer can jump into a project and already know
how to use extended attributes because it's a 4D feature, not a custom bit
of code.

Anyway, that's how I see it.

If anyone needs a list of benefits of having little custom dictionaries
extending 4D objects, it's probably better to do it over on an official
feature request thread on the Forums in France. Here on the NUG, we're just
talking.
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Re: Old doesn't work with object fields

2017-02-22 Thread Keisuke Miyako via 4D_Tech 
while I love discussing feature requests,
I also take the pragmatic view that every new feature comes at the cost of an 
idea delayed if not discarded.

so,
if anything is already possible with a little bit of creativity,
and fulfils the immediate need,
I would be ready to accept that,
to clear the way for more important stuff.

take the idea of table meta:

very limited (read-only), I understand,
but it is possible to use the "comment" property.
http://doc.4d.com/4Dv16/4D/16/Table-properties.300-3048984.en.html 


something like...

$structure:=""
EXPORT STRUCTURE($structure)

$dom:=DOM Parse XML variable($structure)

  //seems only  has an id attribute; alternatively traverse the tree
$tableId:=String(Table(->[Table_1]))
$table:=DOM Find XML element by ID($dom;$tableId)

  //need to init array in case "find element" returns nothing
ARRAY TEXT($comments;0)
$comment:=DOM Find XML element($table;"table/table_extra/comment";$comments)
CLEAR VARIABLE($comment)
For ($i;1;Size of array($comments))
DOM GET XML ATTRIBUTE BY NAME($comments{$i};"format";$format)
  //there is also an rtf format
If ($format="text")
DOM GET XML ELEMENT VALUE($comments{$i};$comment)
End if
End for

DOM CLOSE XML($dom)

  //for example...
$meta:=JSON Parse($comment;Is object)





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Re: Old doesn't work with object fields

2017-02-22 Thread David Adams via 4D_Tech 
On Thu, Feb 23, 2017 at 12:14 PM, Jeffrey Kain via 4D_Tech <
4d_tech@lists.4d.com> wrote:

> Yeah, that's an incredibly good idea.  I think it would also be very
> useful for tables as well - being able to manage metadata for a table
> without creating a special record has been on my wish list for decades
> now...
>
> +100 on that one too. Great idea. It seems like anything beyond a toy
system needs an extended attributes table for tables and fields. It would
be fantastic to have a hook to add that too. The, of course, we would need
tools to search on attributes...but 4D's object fields already have tools
of that sort. Seems like a very natural and awesome feature request - give
us a place to store and manage custom attributes. But don't make us add
another table (etc.) to do it. Nice one. Please put in a feature request
and maybe we can get a crew to sign it.

And, while we're at it, it would be nice for forms to have such an
extension as well.

It really does seem like 4D has all of the internal tools to do this pretty
easily. Easy for me to say, but the pieces sure seem to be right there now.
Could make for some very cool Summit demos and, better, some super happy
customers.
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Re: Old doesn't work with object fields

2017-02-22 Thread Jeffrey Kain via 4D_Tech 
Yeah, that's an incredibly good idea.  I think it would also be very useful for 
tables as well - being able to manage metadata for a table without creating a 
special record has been on my wish list for decades now... 

> On Feb 22, 2017, at 7:12 PM, David Adams via 4D_Tech <4d_tech@lists.4d.com> 
> wrote:
> 
> The idea is to have an automatic, internal C_OBJECT-type structure (a
> dictionary) maintained by 4D for each widget on a form. If they did this,
> you wouldn't see anything different on the form, but if you wanted to
> associated custom attributes or data with the widget (rules, bindings,
> hints, extra lookup data, filters, formats, privileges, etc.), you would
> know right where to get/set the data.

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Re: Old doesn't work with object fields

2017-02-22 Thread David Adams via 4D_Tech 
> Seems really inefficient, but it works

4D has taken pains to say that object fields *are not JSON*. They can be
represented as JSON, but they aren't stored or accessed as JSON internally.
So, it does seem like a good bug report/feature request to make Old work
correctly on object fields. In fact, it's probably one of the more
important field types that it could work on it. Having to serialize it and
run an expensive comparison ourselves feels a bit over the top.

If you put in a feature request/bug report, shoot a note over here so that
any of us that care can go and vote for your idea.

Speaking of objects and feature requests, Cannon "Object Module" Smith made
a fantastic feature request the other day:

http://forums.4d.fr/Post/EN/19051683/1/19051684

The idea is to have an automatic, internal C_OBJECT-type structure (a
dictionary) maintained by 4D for each widget on a form. If they did this,
you wouldn't see anything different on the form, but if you wanted to
associated custom attributes or data with the widget (rules, bindings,
hints, extra lookup data, filters, formats, privileges, etc.), you would
know right where to get/set the data. It may sound like a small thing, but
it would be a *huge* win. Just massive. You can do something on this order
now with a custom C_OBJECT in a form or process, but the init/cleanup cycle
is kind of 'heavy'. Also, that makes the price of admission high enough
that most people won't do it. Many will never even have the chance to
understand why this is such a great, great idea. If the feature were built
in, people would fall into it and quickly feel like it was always there.

I find myself promoting Cannon's idea becuase it's just so darn good that
if I don't, I'll quickly forget where I heard it and then later "invent" it
myself ;-) I used to work with a guy and I'd come in some mornings and say:
"I've had this amazing idea! You're going to LOVE it!" Blank stare. Answer
"Yeah, I loved it yesterday when I told it to you." Cryptomnesia. It's a
thing. Anyway, please go consider and vote for Cannon's idea. Between me
and Peter Hay I think we've gotten the vote count into the low hundreds ;-)
(Peter and I are adding +100 on this feature request.)

http://forums.4d.fr/Post/EN/19051683/1/19051684
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Re: Old doesn't work with object fields

2017-02-22 Thread Arnaud de Montard via 4D_Tech 

> Le 22 févr. 2017 à 19:27, Cannon Smith via 4D_Tech <4d_tech@lists.4d.com> a 
> écrit :
> 
> [...]
> Vincent de Lachaux posted the original code which I then stole. :-)

Being stolen is sometimes flattering  ;-)


>  : ($atFirstProperty{$x}#$atSecondProperty{$x})  //Check property name

About the comparison above, json properties are case sensitive. 
Things like:
  :(Position(atFirstProperty{$x};$atSecondProperty{$x};*)=1)
or 
  :(Find regex(atFirstProperty{$x};$atSecondProperty{$x};1))
Wouldn't it be safer?

-- 
Arnaud de Montard 


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Install 4D v15 for Windows client mode usage

2017-02-22 Thread Justin Leavens via 4D_Tech 
I have a customer site with a mix of Windows machines and I need to get the
4D v15.4 app for use in client mode on to each machine. This is not a merged
server/client. What's the best way to get the 4D app installed on each
machine? 

The 32-bit installer seems to want to install all of 4D (Server, Runtime,
etc) which isn't needed. I just need the 4D app itself. I've tried in the
past to just copy the app to the machine, but run into weird problems like I
think I couldn't use 4DLink documents. 

Thanks for any tips on this.



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Sent from the 4D Tech mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
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Re: Detecting field properties that can take nulls

2017-02-22 Thread Kirk Brooks via 4D_Tech 
This is a really cool set of tools for exploring structure.

On Mon, Feb 20, 2017 at 12:48 PM, Keisuke Miyako via 4D_Tech <
4d_tech@lists.4d.com> wrote:

> the way forward is EXPORT STRUCTURE,
> which gives you an XML representation of the structure in full detail.
>
> read http://blog.4d.com/detailed-analysis-database-structure/
>
> includes a utility that converts the XML to JSON.
>
> > 2017/02/21 4:52、bob.miller--- via 4D_Tech <4d_tech@lists.4d.com> のメール：
> > Any ideas?
>
>
>
>
> **
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-- 
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San Francisco, CA
===
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Re: Old doesn't work with object fields

2017-02-22 Thread Kirk Brooks via 4D_Tech 
Jeff,

On Wed, Feb 22, 2017 at 10:03 AM, Jeffrey Kain via 4D_Tech <
4d_tech@lists.4d.com> wrote:

> Doesn't Modified only work in a form event?
>
​Yep - my bad.
​

> So it turns out that Old works fine with an object field, but you can't do
> an = comparison. I think what I'm going to do is the following:
>
>   If ((JSON Stringify($fieldPtr->))#(JSON Stringify(Old($fieldPtr->
>
> Seems really inefficient, but it works.
>
​It is inefficient. But JSON is specifically un-ordered and fluid.
Personally in situations where I store data in c-objects like this I just
re-write the c-object - it's usually no more time than testing to see if I
need to re-write it.

Another trick I use is to maintain a separate field with the timestamp of
when the JSON was written. When it's actually requested look at the
timestamp for the last time the record was modified. If they are the same
just return the JSON, if they are different re-write the JSON. This is good
in cases where the record changes a lot but only gets read occasionally -
or never.

-- 
Kirk Brooks
San Francisco, CA
===
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Re: Old doesn't work with object fields

2017-02-22 Thread Jeffrey Kain via 4D_Tech 
Awesome, thanks Cannon!

Jeff

--
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jeffrey.k...@gmail.com

> On Feb 22, 2017, at 1:27 PM, Cannon Smith via 4D_Tech <4d_tech@lists.4d.com> 
> wrote:
> 
> Hi Jeff,
> 
>> If ((JSON Stringify($fieldPtr->))#(JSON Stringify(Old($fieldPtr->
> 
> This only works if the order of the keys in the object stays the same which 
> may not be true depending on how you change the object. I’ve pasted in a 
> method below that you can use to compare two objects which don’t care about 
> the order of keys. I use it in a similar situation to what you are doing and 
> it works well.
> 
> The method name is “OBJ_IsEqual”. It calls itself, so if you use a different 
> name make sure you change that in the code.
> 
> Vincent de Lachaux posted the original code which I then stole. :-)

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Re: Old doesn't work with object fields

2017-02-22 Thread Cannon Smith via 4D_Tech 
Hi Jeff,

>  If ((JSON Stringify($fieldPtr->))#(JSON Stringify(Old($fieldPtr->

This only works if the order of the keys in the object stays the same which may 
not be true depending on how you change the object. I’ve pasted in a method 
below that you can use to compare two objects which don’t care about the order 
of keys. I use it in a similar situation to what you are doing and it works 
well.

The method name is “OBJ_IsEqual”. It calls itself, so if you use a different 
name make sure you change that in the code.

Vincent de Lachaux posted the original code which I then stole. :-)

--
Cannon.Smith
Synergy Farm Solutions Inc.
Hill Spring, AB Canada
403-626-3236





  //Compares two objects. If they are the same (ie. they have exactly the same 
elements and values),
  //the method returns true. Thanks to Vincent de Lachaux for the original code 
which has been changed
  //slightly to more closely match my style.

C_OBJECT($1;$oFirst)
C_OBJECT($2;$oSecond)
C_BOOLEAN($0;$fIsEqual)

$oFirst:=$1
$oSecond:=$2
$fIsEqual:=False  //Default to false

C_LONGINT($x;$y;$lFirstItemCount;$lSecondItemCount;$lFirstPropertyCount;$lSecondPropertyCount)
ARRAY LONGINT($alFirstType;0)
ARRAY TEXT($atFirstProperty;0)
ARRAY LONGINT($alSecondType;0)
ARRAY TEXT($atSecondProperty;0)

OB GET PROPERTY NAMES($oFirst;$atFirstProperty;$alFirstType)
OB GET PROPERTY NAMES($oSecond;$atSecondProperty;$alSecondType)
$lFirstPropertyCount:=Size of array($atFirstProperty)
$lSecondPropertyCount:=Size of array($atSecondProperty)

If ($lFirstPropertyCount=$lSecondPropertyCount)  //They won't be equal if they 
have different property counts
If ($lFirstPropertyCount>0)
  //Sort arrays because the properties could be in a different 
order
SORT ARRAY($atFirstProperty;$alFirstType)
SORT ARRAY($atSecondProperty;$alSecondType)

  //Now compare each property
For ($x;1;$lFirstPropertyCount)

Case of 
: ($atFirstProperty{$x}#$atSecondProperty{$x})  
//Check property name
$fIsEqual:=False

: ($alFirstType{$x}#$alSecondType{$x})  //Check 
property type
$fIsEqual:=False

: ($alFirstType{$x}=Is object)
  //compare the two objects
$fIsEqual:=OBJ_IsEqual (\
OB Get($oFirst;$atFirstProperty{$x};Is 
object);\
OB Get($oSecond;$atFirstProperty{$x};Is 
object))

: ($alFirstType{$x}=Object array)
  //In an object array we can massage 
all the array types back into text except object themselves.
  //So we get two sets of arrays, one 
text and the other objects. Then we can deal with either kind
  //as we walk through each element.

ARRAY OBJECT($aoFirst;0)  //Reset arrays
ARRAY TEXT($atFirst;0)
ARRAY OBJECT($aoSecond;0)
ARRAY TEXT($atSecond;0)
OB GET 
ARRAY($oFirst;$atFirstProperty{$x};$aoFirst)  //Get text and object types
OB GET 
ARRAY($oFirst;$atFirstProperty{$x};$atFirst)
OB GET 
ARRAY($oSecond;$atFirstProperty{$x};$aoSecond)
OB GET 
ARRAY($oSecond;$atFirstProperty{$x};$atSecond)

$lFirstItemCount:=Size of 
array($aoFirst)
$lSecondItemCount:=Size of 
array($aoSecond)
If ($lFirstItemCount=$lSecondItemCount)
For ($y;1;$lFirstItemCount;1)
If ((OB Is 
defined($aoFirst{$y})) & (OB Is defined($aoSecond{$y})))  //If they are both 
objects

$fIsEqual:=OBJ_IsEqual ($aoFirst{$y};$aoSecond{$y})
Else   //Compare text

$fIsEqual:=($atFirst{$y}=$atSecond{$y})
End if 
If ($fIsEqual=False)

Re: Old doesn't work with object fields

2017-02-22 Thread Jeffrey Kain via 4D_Tech 
Seems to...

--
Jeffrey Kain
jeffrey.k...@gmail.com

> On Feb 22, 2017, at 1:04 PM, Lee Hinde via 4D_Tech <4d_tech@lists.4d.com> 
> wrote:
> 4D unpacks it the same each time?

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Re: Old doesn't work with object fields

2017-02-22 Thread Lee Hinde via 4D_Tech 
4D unpacks it the same each time?

> On Feb 22, 2017, at 10:03 AM, Jeffrey Kain via 4D_Tech <4d_tech@lists.4d.com> 
> wrote:
> 
>  If ((JSON Stringify($fieldPtr->))#(JSON Stringify(Old($fieldPtr->
> 
> Seems really inefficient, but it works.

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Re: Old doesn't work with object fields

2017-02-22 Thread Jeffrey Kain via 4D_Tech 
Doesn't Modified only work in a form event?

So it turns out that Old works fine with an object field, but you can't do an = 
comparison. I think what I'm going to do is the following:

  If ((JSON Stringify($fieldPtr->))#(JSON Stringify(Old($fieldPtr->

Seems really inefficient, but it works.

Jeff

--
Jeffrey Kain
jeffrey.k...@gmail.com

> On Feb 22, 2017, at 12:52 PM, Kirk Brooks via 4D_Tech <4d_tech@lists.4d.com> 
> wrote:
> 
> I think this is going to track back to a discussion some time ago about
> trying to compare two c-objects, or JSON, to each other. It turns out to be
> really tricky. For instance:
> 
> JSON a:  {key1:1234, key2:"abcd"}
> 
> is that equal to
> 
> {key2:"abcd", key1:1234}
> 
> or
> 
> {key2:"abcd", key1:"1234"}
> 
> and so on.
> 
> I think, haven't tried, to test Modified on the c-obj field. That might
> work for you. Otherwise I'd just update the c-obj every time.

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Re: Old doesn't work with object fields

2017-02-22 Thread Kirk Brooks via 4D_Tech 
Jeff,
I think this is going to track back to a discussion some time ago about
trying to compare two c-objects, or JSON, to each other. It turns out to be
really tricky. For instance:

JSON a:  {key1:1234, key2:"abcd"}

is that equal to

{key2:"abcd", key1:1234}

or

{key2:"abcd", key1:"1234"}

 and so on.

I think, haven't tried, to test Modified on the c-obj field. That might
work for you. Otherwise I'd just update the c-obj every time.


On Wed, Feb 22, 2017 at 9:02 AM, Jeffrey Kain via 4D_Tech <
4d_tech@lists.4d.com> wrote:

> The subject says it all. It's not documented.
>
> Is there a good generic way to see if an object field has changed from
> within a trigger?
>
> --
> Jeffrey Kain
> jeffrey.k...@gmail.com
>
>
>
>
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San Francisco, CA
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RE: Why doesn't 4D generate a crash log or report?

2017-02-22 Thread Timothy Penner via 4D_Tech 
It should automatically log something.

If on Windows check
* The event viewer for a crash event (or any other type of event related to 4D 
around the same time)
* Next to the 4D.exe or 4DServer.exe there may be a DMP file that can be used 
by 4D Tech Support to obtain more information; this may not be created if the 
application is in a write protected folder that prevents the DMP file from 
being written.

If on MacOS check:
* The Console application and look through the Logs for a crash event maybe a 
file named 4D Server 2017-02-22-093322_MachineName.crash

-Tim



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Why doesn't 4D generate a crash log or report?

2017-02-22 Thread Kirk Brooks via 4D_Tech 
Just had a server crash. Hard crash, no warning, no nothing. Obviously
something rare and arcane. Maybe won't ever happen again.

But it makes me wonder why we don't have any kind of panic dump from 4D in
such cases. It would be a big help in situations like this.

-- 
Kirk Brooks
San Francisco, CA
===
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Old doesn't work with object fields

2017-02-22 Thread Jeffrey Kain via 4D_Tech 
The subject says it all. It's not documented.

Is there a good generic way to see if an object field has changed from within a 
trigger?

--
Jeffrey Kain
jeffrey.k...@gmail.com




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Re: Survey on 4D’s strategy for implementing Preemptive Processing / worker processes

2017-02-22 Thread James Crate via 4D_Tech 
It’s not very sophisticated. 4D pushes data to PostgreSQL, or retrieves data 
from PostgreSQL, based on either user-triggered actions or periodic task 
execution. At no point does the Rails/PostgreSQL system access 4D.  The fact 
that 4D uses SQL to access the PostgreSQL database has specific disadvantages, 
such as updates involving schema changes needing to have coordinated release. 

Jim Crate

> On Feb 22, 2017, at 1:17 AM, Robert ListMail via 4D_Tech 
> <4d_tech@lists.4d.com> wrote:
> 
> Jim, that sound sophisticated. :). So, when Rails is handling a web request 
> in what ways can Rails get to 4D data? Does all data need to be in 
> PostgresSQL database Rails knows about?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Robert
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>> On Feb 21, 2017, at 9:33 AM, James Crate via 4D_Tech <4d_tech@lists.4d.com> 
>> wrote:
>> 
>> I am, both using 4D to directly access the PostgreSQL database with Rob 
>> Laveaux’s plugin and using LEP+curl to access APIs I’ve built. Going 
>> forward, I am moving away from direct database access to exclusively using 
>> APIs. Rails is used for all web access, with no web serving built in 4D at 
>> all.
>> 
>> Jim Crate
> 
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4D Developer Positions Available

2017-02-22 Thread Larry Wolf via 4D_Tech 
Hi,

We have two work from home positions open for 4D Developers. Here’s the link:

http://www.cyberwolf.com/Jobs.aspx


Regards,
Larry

Lawrence Wolf, President
CyberWolf Inc.
http://www.cyberwolf.com/


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Re: JPR_Text2Pict and Objects, a perfect engagement...

2017-02-22 Thread JPR via 4D_Tech 
[JPR]

Hi Wayne,

In fact, there is a solution, suggested by Vincent de Lachaux, the author of 4D 
SVG Component. You can use the component method SVG_New_textArea, this command 
does the job, by using a specific tag  instead of the CR. Have a look 
on the 4D SVG documentation, it may help you to solve the problem.

My very best,

JPR


> On 21 Feb 2017, at 12:23, 4d_tech-requ...@lists.4d.com wrote:
> 
> Date: Tue, 21 Feb 2017 12:20:40 +1100
> From: Wayne Stewart 
> To: 4D iNug Technical <4d_tech@lists.4d.com>
> Subject: Re: JPR_Text2Pict and Objects, a perfect engagement...
> Message-ID:
>   
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
> 
> Hi,
> 
> How can you embed a carriage return so you can have multiple lines?
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Wayne
> 
> 
> Wayne Stewart
> about.me/waynestewart

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