Re: Clarifying Lucio's Additional Requests [Was: Re: [9fans] List of companies that use Plan 9. ]
On Wed, May 15, 2024 at 05:20:21PM GMT, sirjofri wrote: > > Agreeing is not necessary. There are many topics where we don't have to agree > to be a community. For example, I'd like to see libxml in 9front, but the > decision makers decided against it. More recently, people wished for fossil > to come back to 9front, but the decision makers decided against it. Both have > their reasons, and we can always fork off another fork and begin our own > distribution, or just have our own local version with our changes. I can probably put libxml2 in APExp [1] if you want. I have not done it yet since nothing else I build there at the moment has this dependency, but I had an old port of it that probably can be updated. [1] https://github.com/staalmannen/apexp -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T9bf40e9448c878ab-M0db3b808bb8b17f772fec7f3 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: Clarifying Lucio's Additional Requests [Was: Re: [9fans] List of companies that use Plan 9. ]
> That said, I have been excited by the developments in the 9front and 9legacy, > etc, groups, even if I don't fully agree with all the decision making. It at > least means people are still interested in building, and that's a good > start... to agree with the decision making it helps to be part of it, and to be part of it it helps to understand the decision making and to understand it it helps to read the code. i think this is the major reason why some people are appalled these days. there's just so much volume of code it's hard to keep track. but that might be a good thing... -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T9bf40e9448c878ab-Mc8b31b1fd14ff5c50feafad8 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: Clarifying Lucio's Additional Requests [Was: Re: [9fans] List of companies that use Plan 9. ]
15.05.2024 17:04:56 Don Bailey : > Yeah that's the thing, the few of us that have been around for 20 years > enjoyed the discussion as much as the engineering. But the discussion was > always around what to/not to do and how to do it. I was probably the biggest > outsider, as my career prior to diving into Plan 9 was classical violin. I > brought an art mindset to an engineering ecosystem and used the opportunity > to learn as much as I could from the Plan 9 guys, who I definitely considered > my engineering heroes (and still do). I'll never forget the side > conversations with jmk about how to go about testing kernel code and him > bringing me "back down to Earth". One of many little encounters that honestly > have made me into a much more refined engineer today. Albeit, with still > quite a ways to grow :-) I always enjoy when people work with the system, and not only "on" it. Having actual users make most sense to me. I mean, it's an operating system. Having users from non-dev side (like sl, who's a writer) is also great. That discussion type you describe is something I can see on the 9front mailing list and the 9fans discord. I really hope 9fans can turn back to that state eventually. > I think it may just be harder for us "old heads" to understand how to fit in > with the modern communication style here. And I don't say this to be fiery or > disrespectful, but a lot of the discussions come off paranoid and > inflammatory while simultaneously accusing everyone *else* of being quite the > same. It's very strange and is a big reason a lot of people have left or just > choose to lurk. That's why I like to end messages with the most neutral smiley I can find. And I also try to read messages that way. Text can be rude, and I often enough find myself reading a text message in a discussion thread like a shakespeare program: arguing, fighting. However, the writer almost never intended to mean that! I also sometimes miss the fidonet messaging style. As far as I could experience it, it was always friendly and constructive. > That said, I have been excited by the developments in the 9front and 9legacy, > etc, groups, even if I don't fully agree with all the decision making. It at > least means people are still interested in building, and that's a good > start... Agreeing is not necessary. There are many topics where we don't have to agree to be a community. For example, I'd like to see libxml in 9front, but the decision makers decided against it. More recently, people wished for fossil to come back to 9front, but the decision makers decided against it. Both have their reasons, and we can always fork off another fork and begin our own distribution, or just have our own local version with our changes. Another example in the opposite direction: many users use various rio versions with theming etc. I don't want that. It's not part of the distribution (with very few exceptions), and it's 100% optional. We don't always have to agree, but as long as we can discuss things in peace and exchange information we can still be a community. sirjofri -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T9bf40e9448c878ab-M5717c4c296c89509b0c53f62 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: Clarifying Lucio's Additional Requests [Was: Re: [9fans] List of companies that use Plan 9. ]
On 5/15/24 09:18, Don Bailey wrote: > This thread is perhaps one of the best examples of the bizarre ecosystem that > Plan 9 has evolved (devolved?) into. While I have not always understood Vic's > choices, I was, in the past, aware of his /position/ at certain entities... > and provided him with security information I hoped was relevant to that > position at that time. He has been on the Plan 9 mailing list as long (or > longer?) than I have (pre-2002?) and has always written his emails in the > fashion he writes them currently. I'm not quite sure what his position has to do with anything honestly. I am sorry I lack some historical context. > > Frankly, I don't even understand the point in attacking whether he is or is > not "an LLM". He's actually trying to be helpful. Perhaps spending less time > trolling everyone you don't understand (and inaccurately presume to be a > troll), and instead trying to understand how they purport to add value, is a > useful path forward. I thought he was using a LLM because I had mentioned such in previous emails in this thread and was not corrected. Some posts have this improper summation of what the previous mail said in the same way I've seen LLMs do. A lot of the discussions earlier were about adding bureaucratic process and what not that it was hard for me to take seriously. I understand now that these were honest attempts at helping things, just not ones that I would tend to agree with. Vic, I am sorry for attributing malice to what you were doing to help. -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T9bf40e9448c878ab-Md8f2dacc717ea65eae27b99e Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: Clarifying Lucio's Additional Requests [Was: Re: [9fans] List of companies that use Plan 9. ]
Yeah that's the thing, the few of us that have been around for 20 years enjoyed the discussion as much as the engineering. But the discussion was always around what to/not to do and how to do it. I was probably the biggest outsider, as my career prior to diving into Plan 9 was classical violin. I brought an art mindset to an engineering ecosystem and used the opportunity to learn as much as I could from the Plan 9 guys, who I definitely considered my engineering heroes (and still do). I'll never forget the side conversations with jmk about how to go about testing kernel code and him bringing me "back down to Earth". One of many little encounters that honestly have made me into a much more refined engineer today. Albeit, with still quite a ways to grow :-) I think it may just be harder for us "old heads" to understand how to fit in with the modern communication style here. And I don't say this to be fiery or disrespectful, but a lot of the discussions come off paranoid and inflammatory while simultaneously accusing everyone *else* of being quite the same. It's very strange and is a big reason a lot of people have left or just choose to lurk. That said, I have been excited by the developments in the 9front and 9legacy, etc, groups, even if I don't fully agree with all the decision making. It at least means people are still interested in building, and that's a good start... D On Wed, May 15, 2024 at 10:57 AM sirjofri wrote: > 15.05.2024 16:18:49 Don Bailey : > > This thread is perhaps one of the best examples of the bizarre ecosystem > that Plan 9 has evolved (devolved?) into. While I have not always > understood Vic's choices, I was, in the past, aware of his /position/ at > certain entities... and provided him with security information I hoped was > relevant to that position at that time. He has been on the Plan 9 mailing > list as long (or longer?) than I have (pre-2002?) and has always written > his emails in the fashion he writes them currently. > > I didn't know that he's been here for so long. It's sad that you both > perceive the state of the mailing list community as it is. > > I can also totally see that vic is trying to help. I just see that the > help he's providing in the last few months wasn't very helpful, and it also > wasn't well perceived by all readers. > > However, I can also only judge from my perspective, and I'm only here for > a few years now. > > > Frankly, I don't even understand the point in attacking whether he is or > is not "an LLM". He's actually trying to be helpful. Perhaps spending less > time trolling everyone you don't understand (and inaccurately presume to be > a troll), and instead trying to understand how they purport to add value, > is a useful path forward. > > I personally consider it a valid move to ask a LLM for help writing mails. > It's just weird to do that on a mailing list like this. I doubt that vic > used an AI or anything (I mean, why would he lie). > > I can also see one or the other trolling attempt here, and I see only a > few different reasons for that: > > (1) People are tired because they're always reading the same arguments and > defending themselves for the 1000th time. It's understandable that somw > develop a trolling tone. > > (2) People have fun trolling other people. In my opinion this belongs into > human communication to some extent, but it shouldn't be endorsed and it > should only happen in some safe space. On this mailing list, this is > sometimes too much. > > (3) People are trolls. In this case we're out of luck. > > > There are other companies using Plan 9 in commercial > operations/offerings, but I don't think they care to be a part of whatever > this mailing list has become. > > (Still interested in learning about them.) > > Sorry, I can't really perceive "whatever this mailing list has become". > I'm not here for too long, and I probably don't see it as critical as you. > I should note however that 9fans threads often are either non-existent (the > list is very silent), half-dead or total drama (as this giga-thread). > Compared to the 9front mailing list, there's almost only constructive work, > feedback, steps forward. > > I also notice that there's barely any software development going on here > (almost no patches, no discussion). Is this because the mailing list > evolved like that and people don't want to contribute in that environment, > or is it the reason why it evolved like that? > > Funnily enough, the 9fans discord community is very nice, helpful, I can > barely see any trolling attempt at all (at least I can't remember anything > like that). > > sirjofri -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T9bf40e9448c878ab-Mf9575a7f3e053b05ad388de6 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: Clarifying Lucio's Additional Requests [Was: Re: [9fans] List of companies that use Plan 9. ]
15.05.2024 16:18:49 Don Bailey : > This thread is perhaps one of the best examples of the bizarre ecosystem that > Plan 9 has evolved (devolved?) into. While I have not always understood Vic's > choices, I was, in the past, aware of his /position/ at certain entities... > and provided him with security information I hoped was relevant to that > position at that time. He has been on the Plan 9 mailing list as long (or > longer?) than I have (pre-2002?) and has always written his emails in the > fashion he writes them currently. I didn't know that he's been here for so long. It's sad that you both perceive the state of the mailing list community as it is. I can also totally see that vic is trying to help. I just see that the help he's providing in the last few months wasn't very helpful, and it also wasn't well perceived by all readers. However, I can also only judge from my perspective, and I'm only here for a few years now. > Frankly, I don't even understand the point in attacking whether he is or is > not "an LLM". He's actually trying to be helpful. Perhaps spending less time > trolling everyone you don't understand (and inaccurately presume to be a > troll), and instead trying to understand how they purport to add value, is a > useful path forward. I personally consider it a valid move to ask a LLM for help writing mails. It's just weird to do that on a mailing list like this. I doubt that vic used an AI or anything (I mean, why would he lie). I can also see one or the other trolling attempt here, and I see only a few different reasons for that: (1) People are tired because they're always reading the same arguments and defending themselves for the 1000th time. It's understandable that somw develop a trolling tone. (2) People have fun trolling other people. In my opinion this belongs into human communication to some extent, but it shouldn't be endorsed and it should only happen in some safe space. On this mailing list, this is sometimes too much. (3) People are trolls. In this case we're out of luck. > There are other companies using Plan 9 in commercial operations/offerings, > but I don't think they care to be a part of whatever this mailing list has > become. (Still interested in learning about them.) Sorry, I can't really perceive "whatever this mailing list has become". I'm not here for too long, and I probably don't see it as critical as you. I should note however that 9fans threads often are either non-existent (the list is very silent), half-dead or total drama (as this giga-thread). Compared to the 9front mailing list, there's almost only constructive work, feedback, steps forward. I also notice that there's barely any software development going on here (almost no patches, no discussion). Is this because the mailing list evolved like that and people don't want to contribute in that environment, or is it the reason why it evolved like that? Funnily enough, the 9fans discord community is very nice, helpful, I can barely see any trolling attempt at all (at least I can't remember anything like that). sirjofri -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T9bf40e9448c878ab-M3bf91b1fc473af40e9298066 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: Clarifying Lucio's Additional Requests [Was: Re: [9fans] List of companies that use Plan 9. ]
Quoth vic.thac...@fastmail.fm: > Sadly, I don't have what it takes to bridge the gap. I think that my > idea of mending the communities is too grand. Also, I'm saddened > to see the more I try to help the worse the situation becomes. The communities are mending more or less fine, at least among the people who actually hack on things. Code is shared and imported in both directions, and discussion is happening. What is making things worse for you is back seat driving. Starting from a position of contributing work might go over well. Trying to tell me how I should spend my time will require you to pay me. For example: > I have my own personal Plan 9 distribution that I have been using > for years, circa 2006. Why should I listen to you about how to heal fractured communities, when you have a community so fractured, it has one member, and was effectively a secret for 18 years? A first step would be putting it out there. A second would be listing the changes you've felt the need to make. Ideally with some reasoning. If that's out there, I'll happily look through, and if it makes sense, I'll integrate parts into 9front. The 9legacy folks may or may not, but at least they'll have the choice. So: > but I find it challenging to contribute. If you want to change that, I think the first step is starting with some humility. Instead of trying to make other people into your unpaid interns, start by figuring out how to contribute. Find a bug. Write a patch. Send a fix. Work on a specific problem. Realize that people will only pay attention after work gets done. But, I've said this before. I don't expect it will get listened to this time either. -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T9bf40e9448c878ab-Mbb3343ea7875fc0ca134f356 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: Clarifying Lucio's Additional Requests [Was: Re: [9fans] List of companies that use Plan 9. ]
This thread is perhaps one of the best examples of the bizarre ecosystem that Plan 9 has evolved (devolved?) into. While I have not always understood Vic's choices, I was, in the past, aware of his /position/ at certain entities... and provided him with security information I hoped was relevant to that position at that time. He has been on the Plan 9 mailing list as long (or longer?) than I have (pre-2002?) and has always written his emails in the fashion he writes them currently. Frankly, I don't even understand the point in attacking whether he is or is not "an LLM". He's actually trying to be helpful. Perhaps spending less time trolling everyone you don't understand (and inaccurately presume to be a troll), and instead trying to understand how they purport to add value, is a useful path forward. There are other companies using Plan 9 in commercial operations/offerings, but I don't think they care to be a part of whatever this mailing list has become. D On Wed, May 15, 2024 at 10:00 AM wrote: > On Wed, May 15, 2024, at 17:38, sirjofri wrote: > > Hey vic, > ... > > Write your mails. Write them, don't send them. Read them again > > carefully and think about the people reading it. They most likely > > understand as much as you, and they have all the track record of > > earlier discussions, so they very likely understand more than you. > > Things are as they are for a reason. Not always for a good reason, but > > for a reason. After thinking about your mail and the recipient, you may > > revise/rewrite your mail or just throw it away. > > > > Last, we're not a company. People who do the work are the ones > > organizing. Those people don't like to see strangers organizing their > > stuff without any contribution. If you can write software, try to > > organize yourself and give something back to the community. Hunt for > > bugs and fix them, or write tools that helps people, or improve the > > documentation. This should help the community much more than top-level > > organization when there is no top-level. > > Thanks, Sirjofri, I really appreciate your message. > > I'll keep things more casual in this message. I didn't use Strunk & White, > which would have really annoyed people, but I agree that my posts have been > rushed and barely revised. > > I wanted to classify the topics to see if anyone was already working on > them as it wasn't apparent. Some developers can be very territorial, and I > didn't want to step into a mess. My plan was to ask around next. I see > that the current team is very happy with the status quo. > > If the hacker culture rules are necessary, I'm definitely not a good fit. > I should step aside to avoid being disruptive. I've been programming for a > long time, and I work in a very different manner. I'd rather avoid the > drama I've experienced the past few days. I can only imagine the hell it > must be to contribute. I don't mean that in an offensive way, but I'm just > looking back on the hazing that has been happening. **heavy sigh** > > I was told this is a flat model, yet I see there is a meritocracy and > outdated rules as well as too much hazing occurring. Hazing alone is enough > to off put someone. I surmise there is too much entitlement occurring which > results in both hazing and a cancel culture. I am not trying to persuade > you or anyone on 9fans, but rather I just want to show you what I see. > I've worked on 160 million USD projects and have needed to fix personnel > issues. I know this is not a company, but anyone that cannot see there are > issues here has their head in the sand. I hope you take my comments as > constructive. The intention of my comments to make things better. > > You've helped me see that I'm not a good cultural fit, which is good to > know early. > > Again, thank you very much for your advice. Let me share a letter with > you that I wrote to Bakul and then I'll leave 9fans. > Thank you and goodbye. > > Hi Bakul, > > Thanks for reaching out. I trust you are well. > > I have my own personal Plan 9 distribution that I have been using > for years, circa 2006. 9legacy and 9front are great, but I find it > challenging to contribute. However, the 9legacy community has > been much more friendly and helpful as you can imagine. I am > grateful for past help. > > Whenever I witness the challenges faced between 9legacy and > 9front communities, I can't help but feel responsible. > > Looking back, I see that my youthful inexperience played a role > in deepening the rift between Plan 9 and what would become > 9front. At the time, I failed to bridge the gap between influential > opposition members, such as Uriel and 20h, and the foundational > members of the community, like Russ Cox and others. Now, as I > contemplate my legacy, my goal was to somehow mend the > division and foster unity among the communities before my time > ends. I think I could have prevented the need for 9front years ago > and the community would had been in a
Re: Clarifying Lucio's Additional Requests [Was: Re: [9fans] List of companies that use Plan 9. ]
On Wed, May 15, 2024, at 17:38, sirjofri wrote: > Hey vic, ... > Write your mails. Write them, don't send them. Read them again > carefully and think about the people reading it. They most likely > understand as much as you, and they have all the track record of > earlier discussions, so they very likely understand more than you. > Things are as they are for a reason. Not always for a good reason, but > for a reason. After thinking about your mail and the recipient, you may > revise/rewrite your mail or just throw it away. > > Last, we're not a company. People who do the work are the ones > organizing. Those people don't like to see strangers organizing their > stuff without any contribution. If you can write software, try to > organize yourself and give something back to the community. Hunt for > bugs and fix them, or write tools that helps people, or improve the > documentation. This should help the community much more than top-level > organization when there is no top-level. Thanks, Sirjofri, I really appreciate your message. I'll keep things more casual in this message. I didn't use Strunk & White, which would have really annoyed people, but I agree that my posts have been rushed and barely revised. I wanted to classify the topics to see if anyone was already working on them as it wasn't apparent. Some developers can be very territorial, and I didn't want to step into a mess. My plan was to ask around next. I see that the current team is very happy with the status quo. If the hacker culture rules are necessary, I'm definitely not a good fit. I should step aside to avoid being disruptive. I've been programming for a long time, and I work in a very different manner. I'd rather avoid the drama I've experienced the past few days. I can only imagine the hell it must be to contribute. I don't mean that in an offensive way, but I'm just looking back on the hazing that has been happening. **heavy sigh** I was told this is a flat model, yet I see there is a meritocracy and outdated rules as well as too much hazing occurring. Hazing alone is enough to off put someone. I surmise there is too much entitlement occurring which results in both hazing and a cancel culture. I am not trying to persuade you or anyone on 9fans, but rather I just want to show you what I see. I've worked on 160 million USD projects and have needed to fix personnel issues. I know this is not a company, but anyone that cannot see there are issues here has their head in the sand. I hope you take my comments as constructive. The intention of my comments to make things better. You've helped me see that I'm not a good cultural fit, which is good to know early. Again, thank you very much for your advice. Let me share a letter with you that I wrote to Bakul and then I'll leave 9fans. Thank you and goodbye. Hi Bakul, Thanks for reaching out. I trust you are well. I have my own personal Plan 9 distribution that I have been using for years, circa 2006. 9legacy and 9front are great, but I find it challenging to contribute. However, the 9legacy community has been much more friendly and helpful as you can imagine. I am grateful for past help. Whenever I witness the challenges faced between 9legacy and 9front communities, I can't help but feel responsible. Looking back, I see that my youthful inexperience played a role in deepening the rift between Plan 9 and what would become 9front. At the time, I failed to bridge the gap between influential opposition members, such as Uriel and 20h, and the foundational members of the community, like Russ Cox and others. Now, as I contemplate my legacy, my goal was to somehow mend the division and foster unity among the communities before my time ends. I think I could have prevented the need for 9front years ago and the community would had been in a better state today. That is my biggest regret that I have. That is one reason why I isolate myself. I am just not a good mediator nor communicator. Sadly, I don't have what it takes to bridge the gap. I think that my idea of mending the communities is too grand. Also, I'm saddened to see the more I try to help the worse the situation becomes. Kind regards, Vic -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T9bf40e9448c878ab-Mcc7849731d5a3a69a3c464c6 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: Clarifying Lucio's Additional Requests [Was: Re: [9fans] List of companies that use Plan 9. ]
Quoth vic.thac...@fastmail.fm: > A better solution might be to inform others on how to interface with > each community. For example, providing clear instructions on how to > submit feature and bug requests. This is something I haven’t seen > mentioned recently. It would be beneficial for each community to > explain what is acceptable in these interactions. Section 2.4 and 2.5 of the FQA: https://fqa.9front.org/fqa2.html#2.4 -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T9bf40e9448c878ab-M377f31693fad0bf7dadf6e6f Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: Clarifying Lucio's Additional Requests [Was: Re: [9fans] List of companies that use Plan 9. ]
On Wed, May 15, 2024, at 19:35, hiro wrote: > it's not much of a degree if they don't require you to read Strunk & White Sure, I'll show you an example. It was one of the best scholarships available. You should have seen my writing before. ;-) Uriel admired Strunk & White. Today, many colleges follow the Purdue Writing Lab's guidance. Students learn the seven styles described by Strunk & White. Vic -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T9bf40e9448c878ab-M9dda42445a036304e91bed81 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: Clarifying Lucio's Additional Requests [Was: Re: [9fans] List of companies that use Plan 9. ]
it's not much of a degree if they don't require you to read Strunk & White On Wed, May 15, 2024 at 11:18 AM wrote: > > On Wed, May 15, 2024, at 16:39, pl...@room3420.net wrote: > > It doesn't. I don't know if you're a troll or just not clever enough to > > understand that you make everybody uncomfortable. > > Hope this helps. > > Well, I am disappointed that you feel that way. I am definitely not a troll > nor am I that clever. However, I can respond in kind if provoked. I'm human > after all. I'll be frank and set boundaries if things get too far out of > hand. Overall, I much prefer fostering friendly interactions in 9fans. I do > not see the need for conflict and ill-will. I'm not attempting to create > problems nor make anyone feel uncomfortable. However, I'll gladly respond in > kind. If you want to call me a troll for responding in kind that is fine. > However, please be fair minded and consider my perspective as well. > > Not everyone here is uncomfortable, but like you, I'm disappointed in how > interactions have turned out, so we have that in common. I respond to > empirical evidence, so I mentioned the concern about submitting feature and > bug requests because it seemed that it would benefit Lucio and others. There > is nothing wrong with helping others and setting expectations. I don't > understand why that would be a problem. Clarity is better than > misunderstanding. > > Regarding my writing style, it is shaped by years of government service and > an M.A. degree. I understand that my style may be unusual. Before posting, I > make an effort to revise my responses for clarity, which can result in longer > messages. We can blame grammarly.com for some word choices as well. > > Kind regards, > > Vic -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T9bf40e9448c878ab-Mf7a9f20ee1229ab0dfc9c90d Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: Clarifying Lucio's Additional Requests [Was: Re: [9fans] List of companies that use Plan 9. ]
15.05.2024 11:17:46 vic.thac...@fastmail.fm: > Not everyone here is uncomfortable, but like you, I'm disappointed in how > interactions have turned out, so we have that in common. I respond to > empirical evidence, so I mentioned the concern about submitting feature and > bug requests because it seemed that it would benefit Lucio and others. There > is nothing wrong with helping others and setting expectations. I don't > understand why that would be a problem. Clarity is better than > misunderstanding. In this specific case, I think it was a misunderstanding on your side. Lucio mentioned a problem and asked for solutions. You understood it as a bug report that was not obviously flagged as a bug report. Lucio clearly stated in the last mail that he didn't ask for anything. He was merely asking about some problem he had. In my opinion that's a big difference. Read also this: https://fqa.9front.org/fqa2.html#2.4 > It is possible you simply don’t know what you’re doing. If you do not > understand how something is done in 9front or how it works, and can’t figure > out how to resolve the problem using the manual pages, [...] > Regarding my writing style, it is shaped by years of government service and > an M.A. degree. I understand that my style may be unusual. Before posting, I > make an effort to revise my responses for clarity, which can result in longer > messages. We can blame grammarly.com for some word choices as well. I understand that. That's also one of the reasons why my mails are usually so long. Keep in mind though that people here are reading mails because they want to, and they all try to understand them. I'm reminded of a friend who's working for the German government. He was sending out a mail with a spreadsheet to some colleague with the wish to fill it out. That colleague asked back multiple times: first, if that mail was sent to her on purpose and if she's the correct recipient. Second, if she is supposed to fill out that spreadsheet. Third, if she should fill out that one specific column that is described as "please fill out this column". Those people aren't here on this mailing list, but I would totally understand extremely verbose (-v) mails like yours if you managed people like that for many years! I'm glad I don't have a job like that... sirjofri -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T9bf40e9448c878ab-M16d34b8ead3f8f9c3e1e69b7 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: Clarifying Lucio's Additional Requests [Was: Re: [9fans] List of companies that use Plan 9. ]
>On Wed, 15 May 2024 10:38:53 +0200 (GMT+02:00) >sirjofri wrote: > > Hey vic, > > There are a few different issues I see with your mails: > Last, we're not a company. People who do the work are the ones > organizing. Those people don't like to see strangers organizing their > stuff without any contribution. If you can write software, try to > organize yourself and give something back to the community. Hunt for > bugs and fix them, or write tools that helps people, or improve the > documentation. This should help the community much more than > top-level organization when there is no top-level. As a long-time lurker, I'd like to offer the following URLs as evidence the preceding paragraph should be taken as culturally normative: https://catb.org/~esr/faqs/hacker-howto.html https://catb.org/~esr/faqs/loginataka.html This is the way hackers work, together, on building a better world. -- Svi moji e-mailovi su kriptografski potpisani. Proverite ih. All of my e-mails are cryptographically signed. Verify them. -- You don't need an AI for a robot uprising. Humans will do just fine. -- signature.asc Description: PGP signature -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T9bf40e9448c878ab-M941e1f93eea2558e758ea4a6 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: Clarifying Lucio's Additional Requests [Was: Re: [9fans] List of companies that use Plan 9. ]
On Wed, May 15, 2024, at 16:39, pl...@room3420.net wrote: > It doesn't. I don't know if you're a troll or just not clever enough to > understand that you make everybody uncomfortable. > Hope this helps. Well, I am disappointed that you feel that way. I am definitely not a troll nor am I that clever. However, I can respond in kind if provoked. I'm human after all. I'll be frank and set boundaries if things get too far out of hand. Overall, I much prefer fostering friendly interactions in 9fans. I do not see the need for conflict and ill-will. I'm not attempting to create problems nor make anyone feel uncomfortable. However, I'll gladly respond in kind. If you want to call me a troll for responding in kind that is fine. However, please be fair minded and consider my perspective as well. Not everyone here is uncomfortable, but like you, I'm disappointed in how interactions have turned out, so we have that in common. I respond to empirical evidence, so I mentioned the concern about submitting feature and bug requests because it seemed that it would benefit Lucio and others. There is nothing wrong with helping others and setting expectations. I don't understand why that would be a problem. Clarity is better than misunderstanding. Regarding my writing style, it is shaped by years of government service and an M.A. degree. I understand that my style may be unusual. Before posting, I make an effort to revise my responses for clarity, which can result in longer messages. We can blame grammarly.com for some word choices as well. Kind regards, Vic -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T9bf40e9448c878ab-Me8e9f5029e323348324f05fc Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: Clarifying Lucio's Additional Requests [Was: Re: [9fans] List of companies that use Plan 9. ]
Hey vic, There are a few different issues I see with your mails: First and most obvious, they sound like they're generated by some LLM (playing captain obvious here). People don't like to see this, it might be related to some language barrier. That impression is also supported by the content. Which leads to the second point: the content of your mails make me feel like you feel the urge/need to help. While help is generally appreciated, it depends. If you can only help by organizing stuff then organizing "the one single plan 9 system" doesn't lead to anything because that doesn't exist. 9legacy and 9front are both organized by their contributors, who all work for free. No money, no demands, no big organization that tells them what to do. It would be better if you find another way to help, preferably one that doesn't incorporate mails so long that nobody wants to read them with content that nobody wants to know. It is generally fine to share patches and also bug reports to the mailing lists (yes there's a separate 9front mailing list for 9front topics). For 9front, there's even a section in the fqa about bug reports. Note that all bug reports suck in some way, and people who work on the systems do it for free. Also, not all apparent bugs are bugs, so keep using plan 9 systems until you understand how it is supposed to work (or ask). In general, the people on our mailing lists know how to work with each other. You'll occasionally see discussion about patches (especially on 9front), as well as about other topics. There are also other channels of communication (irc, mostly). Be assured that people communicate with each other, as far as they are willing to. I've never seen so much interaction between 9front and 9legacy as in the last few years. Other than that, your mails often enough just state the obvious. People read between the lines to understand what the person means. This sometimes fails to work, but that's just part of human communication. Your ability to summarize a mailing list thread about three different topics into a list of 7 user story action points is not well perceived, which I can rotally understand: it doesn't help anyone. My advice would be (not sure if it helps): Write your mails. Write them, don't send them. Read them again carefully and think about the people reading it. They most likely understand as much as you, and they have all the track record of earlier discussions, so they very likely understand more than you. Things are as they are for a reason. Not always for a good reason, but for a reason. After thinking about your mail and the recipient, you may revise/rewrite your mail or just throw it away. Last, we're not a company. People who do the work are the ones organizing. Those people don't like to see strangers organizing their stuff without any contribution. If you can write software, try to organize yourself and give something back to the community. Hunt for bugs and fix them, or write tools that helps people, or improve the documentation. This should help the community much more than top-level organization when there is no top-level. I hope this mail finds you well, please read it with some smile. I don't want to hurt anyone, and text can be rude sometimes. sirjofri -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T9bf40e9448c878ab-M88437843e76a7fd59aff342c Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: Clarifying Lucio's Additional Requests [Was: Re: [9fans] List of companies that use Plan 9. ]
It doesn't. I don't know if you're a troll or just not clever enough to understand that you make everybody uncomfortable. Hope this helps. -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T9bf40e9448c878ab-Mcc1cdcca2cec06e6edd2ec2a Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: Clarifying Lucio's Additional Requests [Was: Re: [9fans] List of companies that use Plan 9. ]
On Wed, May 15, 2024, at 15:11, Jacob Moody wrote: > At this point I can't really tell if you're using some LLM to be ironic > or if you actually think this junk > is of any substance. I am not sure how you don't see this copy pasta > garbage as anything else than a waste > of everyone else's inbox and time. No, I am not being ironic at all. I understand that you do not know me. I am a seriously minded 20-year public servant, and I once held Q access authorization, where everything is taken extremely seriously. Since retiring, I am still adapting to civilian life. Perhaps this explains why my son has me listed as Rambo on his mobile phone. I also have a very dry sense of humor. A better solution might be to inform others on how to interface with each community. For example, providing clear instructions on how to submit feature and bug requests. This is something I haven’t seen mentioned recently. It would be beneficial for each community to explain what is acceptable in these interactions. In lieu of that, I’ll simply post for clarity in the hope that it piques interest and fosters further conversations. Hope this helps. Vic -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T9bf40e9448c878ab-M45ffcc1c3b04e27033ef6ed3 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: Clarifying Lucio's Additional Requests [Was: Re: [9fans] List of companies that use Plan 9. ]
At this point I can't really tell if you're using some LLM to be ironic or if you actually think this junk is of any substance. I am not sure how you don't see this copy pasta garbage as anything else than a waste of everyone else's inbox and time. On 5/15/24 00:55, vic.thac...@fastmail.fm wrote: > Firstly, congratulations to Lucio on the progress with getting Fossil running > under 9front. A heartfelt thank you to everyone who offered their support and > assistance to make this possible! I only say this as a person who wants to > celebrate successes. > > FWIW, I’d like to help clarify the additional requests that Lucio has made to > address each point effectively on a separate thread. Here are Lucio’s > requests, organized by topic: I find it very funny that your LLM summarized Lucio's mail as a list of demands. -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T9bf40e9448c878ab-Me40aca14846539176500a8cd Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Clarifying Lucio's Additional Requests [Was: Re: [9fans] List of companies that use Plan 9. ]
Firstly, congratulations to Lucio on the progress with getting Fossil running under 9front. A heartfelt thank you to everyone who offered their support and assistance to make this possible! I only say this as a person who wants to celebrate successes. FWIW, I’d like to help clarify the additional requests that Lucio has made to address each point effectively on a separate thread. Here are Lucio’s requests, organized by topic: Canonical Version of Fossil Unified Version: There is a need for a single, "canonical" version of Fossil to avoid confusion and fragmentation. Multiple versions can complicate usage and development. Inclusion of Sources in Distributions Key Source Inclusion: Including important sources like Fossil in the 9front distribution is crucial. Excluding these sources can lead to decisions made by a few contributors affecting all users, especially those unaware of the exclusions. 9legacy Boot and Installation USB Boot and Installation: For 9legacy, it’s essential to enable it to boot, install, and run from a USB stick on any PC hardware, with support for both IDE and SATA. This would enhance accessibility and user-friendliness. SSH2 Implementation Plan 9 Legacy: Lucio is encountering challenges in getting SSH2 to work in his Plan 9 legacy setup. Finding the right combination of patches has been difficult. Guidance or collaboration to achieve a stable implementation would be greatly appreciated. Cryptography and Security Secure Communication Tools: Discussions about cryptography have been enlightening, but implementing and maintaining secure communication tools like SSH and ssh-agent remains challenging. Support in this area would be beneficial. Version Control with Fossil and PostgreSQL Integration: Lucio is considering integrating "the other Fossil" with PostgreSQL running under NetBSD instead of embedded SQLite. This is complex, and any advice or assistance from experienced members would be invaluable. Porting and Updating Tools OpenLDAP Tools: Lucio has ported OpenLDAP tools to Plan 9 and uses them regularly, but they are based on an older version. Investigating the latest build options and updating these tools would be beneficial. Graphviz Update: Updating Graphviz past its early version to ensure better functionality and compatibility would help those relying on it. Licensing and Legal Support Legal Advice: Given the local culture of "sanction busting" and the rarity of IP prosecutions where Lucio lives, he hasn’t paid much attention to licensing. P9F could play a crucial role in providing legal advice and support to ensure adherence to licensing requirements. I hope you find this useful. Vic On Wed, May 15, 2024, at 13:46, Lucio De Re wrote: > If this comes across as a troll, keep in mind that it is your > interpretation that makes it so, a lesson we South Africans are still busy > learning, at our country's expense. > > I've got Fossil running under 9front; thanks to all those who prodded me > (and others). I would be happier knowing that there is a "canonical" > version rather than at least two varieties as appears to be the case from > the above discussion, but I'd rather not spoil the moment. > > My point all along was that if the source (Fossil or other) is not included > in the (9front) distribution, a (bad) decision is being made by arbitrary > (non)contributors for all the silent participants who may not even know > about it. Why would anyone want to play God? Isn't Google bad enough? > > I concede that I didn't know myself what I was looking for (I think what > "I" need is for 9legacy to boot, install and possibly run, from a USB stick > on any PC hardware, and support both IDE and SATA where present) and my > rather vague question was intended to make the details less sketchy. > Instead, I got a tirade about what I was or was not ready, willing or able > to contribute. Fortunately, that tends to have the desired effect with me, > so right now I haven't yet recovered my decades of pretty pointless effort, > but I know I can do it, with sufficient application, it is no longer lost > or teetering on edge of the abyss. > > As for the cryptography angle, that was an eye opener for sure and for > many, apparently. On my part, I still don't have SSH2 working from my own > Plan 9 "legacy", I haven't been able to shoehorn the right combination of > 9legacy patches into it. It is surprising that I haven't broken it entirely > and I know I came close to doing that on occasion. I had a working version > of ssh-agent working smoothly on my system, both for Plan 9 and P9P (both > Linux and NetBSD), but a hardware failure exposed my lack of discipline and > I haven't had the need or fortitude to recover the working "branch" from > Git, that version control is too complicated for me to feel comfortable > with it, I use it only under duress. Now, after suggestions on this forum > that support my impressions, I
