RE: [ActiveDir] OT: Tivoli
That's consistent with my experience as well. Consulting $$$ often get out of control, and complete implementation is rarely achieved. A statistic I recall from last year was that approx 30% of all Tivoli sales concluded with a successful deployment within the first year. 70%... didn't -gil -Original Message- From: Rod Trent [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, July 14, 2003 10:16 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [ActiveDir] OT: Tivoli I've talked with folks over the years who have tried to implement Tivoli 100%. 100% doesn't seem attainable. Tivoli implementations generally last 2-4 years before they give up and find another product. There's quite a bit of development involved in getting it to work in each environment, which usually means bringing in Tivoli consultants at $250-500 per hour. Tivoli tends to infest companies where SMS is already installed and running, so there are quite a few horror stories from SMS Admins. I'd suggest doing a search on the SMS list for 'Tivoli'. http://www.topica.com/lists/mssms/read -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Chris Flesher Sent: Monday, July 14, 2003 1:10 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [ActiveDir] OT: Tivoli It's funny you ask that question. We are in the midst of figuring out what the cost will be to implement/maintain Tivoli for monitoring/software distribution/inventory. How much of an increase in staff is necessary? Completely off topic, I know. Just curious if anyone can share there success/horror stories on implementing Tivoli. What size shop, what did it cost, how much of an increase in staff? Chris Flesher The University of Chicago NSIT/DCS 1-773-834-8477 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Rod Trent Sent: Monday, July 14, 2003 11:53 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [ActiveDir] OT: Tivoli But, at what cost? -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, July 14, 2003 12:03 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [ActiveDir] OT: Tivoli Here ya' go. You will probably "enjoy" managing with Tivoli's current products. I'm monitoring our entire W2k3/AD lab environment with Tivoli. I think they've gotten it right this time (with customization). http://publib-b.boulder.ibm.com/Redbooks.nsf/Portals/TivoliTME10MailingList Eric Jones, Senior SE Intel Server Group (W) 336.424.3084 (M) 336.457.2591 www.vfc.com |-+--> | | Bjelke John A Contr| | | AFRL/VSIO | | | <[EMAIL PROTECTED]| | | f.mil> | | | Sent by: | | | [EMAIL PROTECTED]| | | tivedir.org| | | | | | | | | 07/14/2003 11:38 AM| | | Please respond to | | | ActiveDir | | | | |-+--> >--- > ---| | | | To: "'[EMAIL PROTECTED]'" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> | | cc: | | Subject: [ActiveDir] OT: Tivoli | >--- > ---| Any of you folks know of a good list (or would that be a "support group"?) for Tivoli? John A. Bjelke Unisys 505.853.6774 [EMAIL PROTECTED] C8H10N4O2 Philosophy! Empty thinking by ignorant conceited men who think they can digest without eating! -Iris Murdoch List info : http://www.activedir.org/mail_list.htm List FAQ: http://www.activedir.org/list_faq.htm List archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/activedir%40mail.activedir.org/ List info : http://www.activedir.org/mail_list.htm List FAQ: http://www.activedir.org/list_faq.htm List archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/activedir%40mail.activedir.org/ List info : http://www.activedir.org/mail_list.htm List FAQ: http://www.activedir.org/list_faq.htm List archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/activedir%40mail.activedir.org/ List info : http://www.activedir.org/mail_list.htm List FAQ: http://www.activedir.org/list_faq.htm List archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/activedir%40mail.activedir.org/ List info : http://www.activedir.org/mail_list.htm List FAQ: http://www.activedir.org/list_faq.htm List archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/activedir%40mail.activedir.org/
RE: [ActiveDir] OT: Tivoli
There's still that question of cost. Not just product price (which is generally out of sight), but the cost of training, additional hardware resources, consultants, IBM's insistence on implementing their other add-ons, and IBM's ultimate plan of selling their services so IT can be outsourced. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, July 14, 2003 3:38 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [ActiveDir] OT: Tivoli Tivoli today is not nearly as horrible on the Windows Server Platform as it may have been before. Reference the following article...starting at about paragraph 7: http://www.informationweek.com/story/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=6502661 IBM's "IBM Tivoli Monitoring" products are nearly completely based on WMI. ITM seems to provide flexibility and capability to effectively monitor one's windows server platform w/o wanting to take a shot at the developers for making your life Hell. I am an admitted convert. I'm certainly not saying that Tivoli is the best [I don't know who is.]. ITM does have its limitations and issues. I am saying that the Tivoli products needed to monitor a Windows Server infrastructure are 'today' should not be the resource drain that it may have been in the past...providing you leave the past in the past...don't bring that "stuff" (<--being kind) over to the new and improved Tivoli... One could even simply attribute this notion to the fact that ITM, again is almost completely based on WMI (Windows Management Instrumentation). Any one directly leveraging WMI is quite aware of the capabilities... especially on W2k/W2k3 boxes. From a 'single product' standpoint, you won't go wrong with selecting MOM, AppManager, or Tivoli. Eric Jones, Senior SE Intel Server Group (W) 336.424.3084 (M) 336.457.2591 www.vfc.com |-+--> | | "Rod Trent"| | | <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> | | | Sent by: | | | [EMAIL PROTECTED]| | | tivedir.org| | | | | | | | | 07/14/2003 12:52 PM| | | Please respond to | | | ActiveDir | | | | |-+--> >--- ---------------| | | | To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> | | cc: | | Subject: RE: [ActiveDir] OT: Tivoli | >--- ---| But, at what cost? -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, July 14, 2003 12:03 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [ActiveDir] OT: Tivoli Here ya' go. You will probably "enjoy" managing with Tivoli's current products. I'm monitoring our entire W2k3/AD lab environment with Tivoli. I think they've gotten it right this time (with customization). http://publib-b.boulder.ibm.com/Redbooks.nsf/Portals/TivoliTME10MailingList Eric Jones, Senior SE Intel Server Group (W) 336.424.3084 (M) 336.457.2591 www.vfc.com |-+--> | | Bjelke John A Contr| | | AFRL/VSIO | | | <[EMAIL PROTECTED]| | | f.mil> | | | Sent by: | | | [EMAIL PROTECTED]| | | tivedir.org| | | | | | | | | 07/14/2003 11:38 AM| | | Please respond to | | | ActiveDir | | | | |-+--> >--- > ---| | | | To: "'[EMAIL PROTECTED]'" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> | | cc: | | Subject: [ActiveDir] OT: Tivoli | >--- > ---| Any of you folks know of a good list (or would that be a "support group"?) for Tivoli? John A. Bjelke Unisys 505.853.6774 [EMAIL PROTECTED] C8H10N4O2 Philosophy! Empty thinking
RE: [ActiveDir] OT: Tivoli
Title: RE: [ActiveDir] OT: Tivoli Funny...we heard nearly the exact same comments about JD Edwards Wasn't true of course...but the comments were the same :D -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Monday, July 14, 2003 3:39 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [ActiveDir] OT: Tivoli Tivoli today is not nearly as horrible on the Windows Server Platform as it may have been before. Reference the following article...starting at about paragraph 7: http://www.informationweek.com/story/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=6502661 IBM's "IBM Tivoli Monitoring" products are nearly completely based on WMI. ITM seems to provide flexibility and capability to effectively monitor one's windows server platform w/o wanting to take a shot at the developers for making your life Hell. I am an admitted convert. I'm certainly not saying that Tivoli is the best [I don't know who is.]. ITM does have its limitations and issues. I am saying that the Tivoli products needed to monitor a Windows Server infrastructure are 'today' should not be the resource drain that it may have been in the past...providing you leave the past in the past...don't bring that "stuff" (<--being kind) over to the new and improved Tivoli... One could even simply attribute this notion to the fact that ITM, again is almost completely based on WMI (Windows Management Instrumentation). Any one directly leveraging WMI is quite aware of the capabilities... especially on W2k/W2k3 boxes. From a 'single product' standpoint, you won't go wrong with selecting MOM, AppManager, or Tivoli. Eric Jones, Senior SE Intel Server Group (W) 336.424.3084 (M) 336.457.2591 www.vfc.com |-+--> | | "Rod Trent" | | | <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> | | | Sent by: | | | [EMAIL PROTECTED]| | | tivedir.org | | | | | | | | | 07/14/2003 12:52 PM | | | Please respond to | | | ActiveDir | | | | |-+--> >--| | | | To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> | | cc: | | Subject: RE: [ActiveDir] OT: Tivoli | >--| But, at what cost? -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, July 14, 2003 12:03 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [ActiveDir] OT: Tivoli Here ya' go. You will probably "enjoy" managing with Tivoli's current products. I'm monitoring our entire W2k3/AD lab environment with Tivoli. I think they've gotten it right this time (with customization). http://publib-b.boulder.ibm.com/Redbooks.nsf/Portals/TivoliTME10MailingList Eric Jones, Senior SE Intel Server Group (W) 336.424.3084 (M) 336.457.2591 www.vfc.com |-+--> | | Bjelke John A Contr | | | AFRL/VSIO | | | <[EMAIL PROTECTED]| | | f.mil> | | | Sent by: | | | [EMAIL PROTECTED]| | | tivedir.org | | | | | | | | | 07/14/2003 11:38 AM | | | Please respond to | | | ActiveDir | | | | |-+--> >--- ---| | | | To: "'[EMAIL PROTECTED]'" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> | | cc: | | Subject: [ActiveDir] OT: Tivoli | >--- --
RE: [ActiveDir] OT: Tivoli
Tivoli today is not nearly as horrible on the Windows Server Platform as it may have been before. Reference the following article...starting at about paragraph 7: http://www.informationweek.com/story/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=6502661 IBM's "IBM Tivoli Monitoring" products are nearly completely based on WMI. ITM seems to provide flexibility and capability to effectively monitor one's windows server platform w/o wanting to take a shot at the developers for making your life Hell. I am an admitted convert. I'm certainly not saying that Tivoli is the best [I don't know who is.]. ITM does have its limitations and issues. I am saying that the Tivoli products needed to monitor a Windows Server infrastructure are 'today' should not be the resource drain that it may have been in the past...providing you leave the past in the past...don't bring that "stuff" (<--being kind) over to the new and improved Tivoli... One could even simply attribute this notion to the fact that ITM, again is almost completely based on WMI (Windows Management Instrumentation). Any one directly leveraging WMI is quite aware of the capabilities... especially on W2k/W2k3 boxes. From a 'single product' standpoint, you won't go wrong with selecting MOM, AppManager, or Tivoli. Eric Jones, Senior SE Intel Server Group (W) 336.424.3084 (M) 336.457.2591 www.vfc.com |-+--> | | "Rod Trent"| | | <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> | | | Sent by: | | | [EMAIL PROTECTED]| | | tivedir.org| | | | | | | | | 07/14/2003 12:52 PM| | | Please respond to | | | ActiveDir | | | | |-+--> >--| | | | To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> | | cc: | | Subject: RE: [ActiveDir] OT: Tivoli | >--| But, at what cost? -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, July 14, 2003 12:03 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [ActiveDir] OT: Tivoli Here ya' go. You will probably "enjoy" managing with Tivoli's current products. I'm monitoring our entire W2k3/AD lab environment with Tivoli. I think they've gotten it right this time (with customization). http://publib-b.boulder.ibm.com/Redbooks.nsf/Portals/TivoliTME10MailingList Eric Jones, Senior SE Intel Server Group (W) 336.424.3084 (M) 336.457.2591 www.vfc.com |-+--> | | Bjelke John A Contr| | | AFRL/VSIO | | | <[EMAIL PROTECTED]| | | f.mil> | | | Sent by: | | | [EMAIL PROTECTED]| | | tivedir.org| | | | | | | | | 07/14/2003 11:38 AM| | | Please respond to | | | ActiveDir | | | | |-+--> >--- ---| | | | To: "'[EMAIL PROTECTED]'" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> | | cc: | | Subject: [ActiveDir] OT: Tivoli | >--- ---| Any of you folks know of a good list (or would that be a "support group"?) for Tivoli? John A. Bjelke Unisys 505.853.6774 [EMAIL PROTECTED] C8H10N4O2 Philosophy! Empty thinking by ignorant conceited men who think they can digest without eating! -Iris Murdoch List info : http://www.activedir.org/ma
RE: [ActiveDir] OT: Tivoli
I've talked with folks over the years who have tried to implement Tivoli 100%. 100% doesn't seem attainable. Tivoli implementations generally last 2-4 years before they give up and find another product. There's quite a bit of development involved in getting it to work in each environment, which usually means bringing in Tivoli consultants at $250-500 per hour. Tivoli tends to infest companies where SMS is already installed and running, so there are quite a few horror stories from SMS Admins. I'd suggest doing a search on the SMS list for 'Tivoli'. http://www.topica.com/lists/mssms/read -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Chris Flesher Sent: Monday, July 14, 2003 1:10 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [ActiveDir] OT: Tivoli It's funny you ask that question. We are in the midst of figuring out what the cost will be to implement/maintain Tivoli for monitoring/software distribution/inventory. How much of an increase in staff is necessary? Completely off topic, I know. Just curious if anyone can share there success/horror stories on implementing Tivoli. What size shop, what did it cost, how much of an increase in staff? Chris Flesher The University of Chicago NSIT/DCS 1-773-834-8477 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Rod Trent Sent: Monday, July 14, 2003 11:53 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [ActiveDir] OT: Tivoli But, at what cost? -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, July 14, 2003 12:03 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [ActiveDir] OT: Tivoli Here ya' go. You will probably "enjoy" managing with Tivoli's current products. I'm monitoring our entire W2k3/AD lab environment with Tivoli. I think they've gotten it right this time (with customization). http://publib-b.boulder.ibm.com/Redbooks.nsf/Portals/TivoliTME10MailingList Eric Jones, Senior SE Intel Server Group (W) 336.424.3084 (M) 336.457.2591 www.vfc.com |-+--> | | Bjelke John A Contr| | | AFRL/VSIO | | | <[EMAIL PROTECTED]| | | f.mil> | | | Sent by: | | | [EMAIL PROTECTED]| | | tivedir.org| | | | | | | | | 07/14/2003 11:38 AM| | | Please respond to | | | ActiveDir | | | | |-+--> >--- > ---| | | | To: "'[EMAIL PROTECTED]'" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> | | cc: | | Subject: [ActiveDir] OT: Tivoli | >--- > ---| Any of you folks know of a good list (or would that be a "support group"?) for Tivoli? John A. Bjelke Unisys 505.853.6774 [EMAIL PROTECTED] C8H10N4O2 Philosophy! Empty thinking by ignorant conceited men who think they can digest without eating! -Iris Murdoch List info : http://www.activedir.org/mail_list.htm List FAQ: http://www.activedir.org/list_faq.htm List archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/activedir%40mail.activedir.org/ List info : http://www.activedir.org/mail_list.htm List FAQ: http://www.activedir.org/list_faq.htm List archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/activedir%40mail.activedir.org/ List info : http://www.activedir.org/mail_list.htm List FAQ: http://www.activedir.org/list_faq.htm List archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/activedir%40mail.activedir.org/ List info : http://www.activedir.org/mail_list.htm List FAQ: http://www.activedir.org/list_faq.htm List archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/activedir%40mail.activedir.org/
RE: [ActiveDir] OT: Tivoli
It's funny you ask that question. We are in the midst of figuring out what the cost will be to implement/maintain Tivoli for monitoring/software distribution/inventory. How much of an increase in staff is necessary? Completely off topic, I know. Just curious if anyone can share there success/horror stories on implementing Tivoli. What size shop, what did it cost, how much of an increase in staff? Chris Flesher The University of Chicago NSIT/DCS 1-773-834-8477 -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Rod Trent Sent: Monday, July 14, 2003 11:53 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [ActiveDir] OT: Tivoli But, at what cost? -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, July 14, 2003 12:03 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [ActiveDir] OT: Tivoli Here ya' go. You will probably "enjoy" managing with Tivoli's current products. I'm monitoring our entire W2k3/AD lab environment with Tivoli. I think they've gotten it right this time (with customization). http://publib-b.boulder.ibm.com/Redbooks.nsf/Portals/TivoliTME10MailingList Eric Jones, Senior SE Intel Server Group (W) 336.424.3084 (M) 336.457.2591 www.vfc.com |-+--> | | Bjelke John A Contr| | | AFRL/VSIO | | | <[EMAIL PROTECTED]| | | f.mil> | | | Sent by: | | | [EMAIL PROTECTED]| | | tivedir.org| | | | | | | | | 07/14/2003 11:38 AM| | | Please respond to | | | ActiveDir | | | | |-+--> >--- > ---| | | | To: "'[EMAIL PROTECTED]'" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> | | cc: | | Subject: [ActiveDir] OT: Tivoli | >--- > ---| Any of you folks know of a good list (or would that be a "support group"?) for Tivoli? John A. Bjelke Unisys 505.853.6774 [EMAIL PROTECTED] C8H10N4O2 Philosophy! Empty thinking by ignorant conceited men who think they can digest without eating! -Iris Murdoch List info : http://www.activedir.org/mail_list.htm List FAQ: http://www.activedir.org/list_faq.htm List archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/activedir%40mail.activedir.org/ List info : http://www.activedir.org/mail_list.htm List FAQ: http://www.activedir.org/list_faq.htm List archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/activedir%40mail.activedir.org/ List info : http://www.activedir.org/mail_list.htm List FAQ: http://www.activedir.org/list_faq.htm List archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/activedir%40mail.activedir.org/
RE: [ActiveDir] OT: Tivoli
But, at what cost? -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, July 14, 2003 12:03 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [ActiveDir] OT: Tivoli Here ya' go. You will probably "enjoy" managing with Tivoli's current products. I'm monitoring our entire W2k3/AD lab environment with Tivoli. I think they've gotten it right this time (with customization). http://publib-b.boulder.ibm.com/Redbooks.nsf/Portals/TivoliTME10MailingList Eric Jones, Senior SE Intel Server Group (W) 336.424.3084 (M) 336.457.2591 www.vfc.com |-+--> | | Bjelke John A Contr| | | AFRL/VSIO | | | <[EMAIL PROTECTED]| | | f.mil> | | | Sent by: | | | [EMAIL PROTECTED]| | | tivedir.org| | | | | | | | | 07/14/2003 11:38 AM| | | Please respond to | | | ActiveDir | | | | |-+--> >--- ---| | | | To: "'[EMAIL PROTECTED]'" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> | | cc: | | Subject: [ActiveDir] OT: Tivoli | >--- ---| Any of you folks know of a good list (or would that be a "support group"?) for Tivoli? John A. Bjelke Unisys 505.853.6774 [EMAIL PROTECTED] C8H10N4O2 Philosophy! Empty thinking by ignorant conceited men who think they can digest without eating! -Iris Murdoch List info : http://www.activedir.org/mail_list.htm List FAQ: http://www.activedir.org/list_faq.htm List archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/activedir%40mail.activedir.org/ List info : http://www.activedir.org/mail_list.htm List FAQ: http://www.activedir.org/list_faq.htm List archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/activedir%40mail.activedir.org/
RE: [ActiveDir] OT: Tivoli
Title: OT: Tivoli FaqShop.com also has some cooperation with the Tivoli folks to republish material, and add FAQ type of answers. www.faqshop.com From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Duncan, LarrySent: Monday, July 14, 2003 11:54 AMTo: '[EMAIL PROTECTED]'Subject: RE: [ActiveDir] OT: Tivoli As much as I hate to further the cause: http://publib-b.boulder.ibm.com/Redbooks.nsf/portals/TivoliCustom1 -Original Message-From: Bjelke John A Contr AFRL/VSIO [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, July 14, 2003 10:38 AMTo: '[EMAIL PROTECTED]'Subject: [ActiveDir] OT: Tivoli Any of you folks know of a good list (or would that be a "support group"?) for Tivoli? John A. Bjelke Unisys 505.853.6774 [EMAIL PROTECTED] C8H10N4O2 Philosophy! Empty thinking by ignorant conceited men who think they can digest without eating! -Iris Murdoch
Re: [ActiveDir] OT: Tivoli
Here ya' go. You will probably "enjoy" managing with Tivoli's current products. I'm monitoring our entire W2k3/AD lab environment with Tivoli. I think they've gotten it right this time (with customization). http://publib-b.boulder.ibm.com/Redbooks.nsf/Portals/TivoliTME10MailingList Eric Jones, Senior SE Intel Server Group (W) 336.424.3084 (M) 336.457.2591 www.vfc.com |-+--> | | Bjelke John A Contr| | | AFRL/VSIO | | | <[EMAIL PROTECTED]| | | f.mil> | | | Sent by: | | | [EMAIL PROTECTED]| | | tivedir.org| | | | | | | | | 07/14/2003 11:38 AM| | | Please respond to | | | ActiveDir | | | | |-+--> >--| | | | To: "'[EMAIL PROTECTED]'" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> | | cc: | | Subject: [ActiveDir] OT: Tivoli | >--| Any of you folks know of a good list (or would that be a "support group"?) for Tivoli? John A. Bjelke Unisys 505.853.6774 [EMAIL PROTECTED] C8H10N4O2 Philosophy! Empty thinking by ignorant conceited men who think they can digest without eating! -Iris Murdoch List info : http://www.activedir.org/mail_list.htm List FAQ: http://www.activedir.org/list_faq.htm List archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/activedir%40mail.activedir.org/
