Re: [AFMUG] OT aintcha glad

[Robert]

I date the failing of the US political system to the date they 
overturned US usury law...


On 8/30/18 7:53 PM, Carl Peterson wrote:
Cash bail generally doesn't work and the current bail bond system is 
pretty much a scam in most states.  Young kids get arrested for being in 
the wrong place at the wrong time and are given the choice of rotting in 
jail for six months to a year or pleading to a felony for time served.  
Now they have a felony on their record for the rest of their lives and 
can't get a job.  Meanwhile, the kid working for a drug crew gets 
arrested, they bail him out, and he's back out on the street slinging 
the next day with a debt over his head so he can never get out of the game.


Kudos to CA's elected reps for having the balls to do this.  The bail 
bond industry "donates" massive sums of money to keep their cash cow 
alive.  If you want to find a dirty politician at the state or local 
level, just look for the ones that take a bunch of money from the bail 
bond industry and payday loan scammers.  I won't vote for anyone who 
takes any significant amount of their dirty money.






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Re: [AFMUG] OT aintcha glad

[Carl Peterson]

Cash bail generally doesn't work and the current bail bond system is pretty
much a scam in most states.  Young kids get arrested for being in the wrong
place at the wrong time and are given the choice of rotting in jail for six
months to a year or pleading to a felony for time served.  Now they have a
felony on their record for the rest of their lives and can't get a job.
Meanwhile, the kid working for a drug crew gets arrested, they bail him
out, and he's back out on the street slinging the next day with a debt over
his head so he can never get out of the game.

Kudos to CA's elected reps for having the balls to do this.  The bail bond
industry "donates" massive sums of money to keep their cash cow alive.  If
you want to find a dirty politician at the state or local level, just look
for the ones that take a bunch of money from the bail bond industry and
payday loan scammers.  I won't vote for anyone who takes any significant
amount of their dirty money.
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Re: [AFMUG] OT aintcha glad

[Carl Peterson]

Never mention the word addiction, in certain company.

On Thu, Aug 30, 2018 at 9:48 PM, Steve Jones 
wrote:

> Lent
>
> On Thu, Aug 30, 2018, 7:09 PM Bill Prince  wrote:
>
>> Neither of those articles mention the word "addiction" with regard to THC
>> or marijuana.
>>
>> --
>> bp
>> part15sbs{at}gmail{dot}com
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Aug 30, 2018 at 4:58 PM Rory Conaway 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/10/151023083229.htm
>>>
>>> https://denver.cbslocal.com/2016/07/11/marijuana-pregnant-
>>> thc-positive-babies-colorado/
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Rory
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *From:* AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com] *On Behalf Of *Jason McKemie
>>> *Sent:* Thursday, August 30, 2018 4:24 PM
>>> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
>>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT aintcha glad
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Please elaborate.
>>>
>>> On Thursday, August 30, 2018, Rory Conaway 
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> No but addicted children birth rates have gone way up in hospitals.
>>>
>>> Rory
>>>
>>> -Original Message-
>>> From: AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com] On Behalf Of Seth Mattinen
>>> Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2018 4:03 PM
>>> To: af@af.afmug.com
>>> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT aintcha glad
>>>
>>> On 8/30/18 3:55 PM, ch...@wbmfg.com wrote:
>>> > Utah has medicinal pot on the ballot this fall.  Who woulda thunk...
>>>
>>> So far the world hasn't ended in states that went full legal.
>>>
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>


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*PORT NETWORKS*

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Baltimore, MD 21202

(410) 637-3707
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Re: [AFMUG] OT aintcha glad

[Steve Jones]

Lent

On Thu, Aug 30, 2018, 7:09 PM Bill Prince  wrote:

> Neither of those articles mention the word "addiction" with regard to THC
> or marijuana.
>
> --
> bp
> part15sbs{at}gmail{dot}com
>
>
> On Thu, Aug 30, 2018 at 4:58 PM Rory Conaway 
> wrote:
>
>> https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/10/151023083229.htm
>>
>>
>> https://denver.cbslocal.com/2016/07/11/marijuana-pregnant-thc-positive-babies-colorado/
>>
>>
>>
>> Rory
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com] *On Behalf Of *Jason McKemie
>> *Sent:* Thursday, August 30, 2018 4:24 PM
>> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT aintcha glad
>>
>>
>>
>> Please elaborate.
>>
>> On Thursday, August 30, 2018, Rory Conaway 
>> wrote:
>>
>> No but addicted children birth rates have gone way up in hospitals.
>>
>> Rory
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com] On Behalf Of Seth Mattinen
>> Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2018 4:03 PM
>> To: af@af.afmug.com
>> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT aintcha glad
>>
>> On 8/30/18 3:55 PM, ch...@wbmfg.com wrote:
>> > Utah has medicinal pot on the ballot this fall.  Who woulda thunk...
>>
>> So far the world hasn't ended in states that went full legal.
>>
>> --
>> AF mailing list
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>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>> --
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>> --
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>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>>
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Re: [AFMUG] OT aintcha glad

[Bill Prince]

Neither of those articles mention the word "addiction" with regard to THC
or marijuana.

--
bp
part15sbs{at}gmail{dot}com


On Thu, Aug 30, 2018 at 4:58 PM Rory Conaway  wrote:

> https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/10/151023083229.htm
>
>
> https://denver.cbslocal.com/2016/07/11/marijuana-pregnant-thc-positive-babies-colorado/
>
>
>
> Rory
>
>
>
> *From:* AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com] *On Behalf Of *Jason McKemie
> *Sent:* Thursday, August 30, 2018 4:24 PM
> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT aintcha glad
>
>
>
> Please elaborate.
>
> On Thursday, August 30, 2018, Rory Conaway  wrote:
>
> No but addicted children birth rates have gone way up in hospitals.
>
> Rory
>
> -Original Message-
> From: AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com] On Behalf Of Seth Mattinen
> Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2018 4:03 PM
> To: af@af.afmug.com
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT aintcha glad
>
> On 8/30/18 3:55 PM, ch...@wbmfg.com wrote:
> > Utah has medicinal pot on the ballot this fall.  Who woulda thunk...
>
> So far the world hasn't ended in states that went full legal.
>
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Re: [AFMUG] OT aintcha glad

[Rory Conaway]

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2015/10/151023083229.htm

https://denver.cbslocal.com/2016/07/11/marijuana-pregnant-thc-positive-babies-colorado/

Rory

From: AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com] On Behalf Of Jason McKemie
Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2018 4:24 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT aintcha glad

Please elaborate.

On Thursday, August 30, 2018, Rory Conaway 
mailto:r...@triadwireless.net>> wrote:
No but addicted children birth rates have gone way up in hospitals.

Rory

-Original Message-
From: AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com] On 
Behalf Of Seth Mattinen
Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2018 4:03 PM
To: af@af.afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT aintcha glad

On 8/30/18 3:55 PM, ch...@wbmfg.com wrote:
> Utah has medicinal pot on the ballot this fall.  Who woulda thunk...

So far the world hasn't ended in states that went full legal.

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Re: [AFMUG] OT aintcha glad

[Jason McKemie]

Please elaborate.

On Thursday, August 30, 2018, Rory Conaway  wrote:

> No but addicted children birth rates have gone way up in hospitals.
>
> Rory
>
> -Original Message-
> From: AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com] On Behalf Of Seth Mattinen
> Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2018 4:03 PM
> To: af@af.afmug.com
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT aintcha glad
>
> On 8/30/18 3:55 PM, ch...@wbmfg.com wrote:
> > Utah has medicinal pot on the ballot this fall.  Who woulda thunk...
>
> So far the world hasn't ended in states that went full legal.
>
> --
> AF mailing list
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> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
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Re: [AFMUG] OT aintcha glad

[Rory Conaway]

No but addicted children birth rates have gone way up in hospitals.  

Rory

-Original Message-
From: AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com] On Behalf Of Seth Mattinen
Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2018 4:03 PM
To: af@af.afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT aintcha glad

On 8/30/18 3:55 PM, ch...@wbmfg.com wrote:
> Utah has medicinal pot on the ballot this fall.  Who woulda thunk...

So far the world hasn't ended in states that went full legal.

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Re: [AFMUG] OT aintcha glad

[Seth Mattinen]

On 8/30/18 3:55 PM, ch...@wbmfg.com wrote:

Utah has medicinal pot on the ballot this fall.  Who woulda thunk...


So far the world hasn't ended in states that went full legal.

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Re: [AFMUG] OT aintcha glad

[chuck]

Utah has medicinal pot on the ballot this fall.  Who woulda thunk...

From: Bill Prince 
Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2018 4:51 PM
To: AFMUG 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT aintcha glad

I think this is why the whole marijuana de-criminalization is happening. After 
50 years of the non-working "war on drugs", people are willing to try something 
different.

Makes a good argument for setting up experimental laws that can fail fast, and 
get replaced by a different theoretical solution.

--

bp

part15sbs{at}gmail{dot}com



On Thu, Aug 30, 2018 at 3:48 PM can...@believewireless.net 
 wrote:

  Too difficult for me to figure out. Nothing seems to work either way. I have 
a hard enough time just
  getting 1's and 0's to flow down a tube. (Or over the air)

  On Thu, Aug 30, 2018 at 6:40 PM,  wrote:

They sure don’t try to help a guy get back on his feet.  

From: Bill Prince 
Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2018 4:35 PM
To: AFMUG 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT aintcha glad

There is nothing so broken as a broken bureaucracy. 

--

bp

part15sbs{at}gmail{dot}com



On Thu, Aug 30, 2018 at 2:59 PM  wrote:

  I have an employee that was supposed to pay a “fee” to his parole officer 
or probation office or some such place.

  We have attempted to help him pay.  
  They will not take a credit card unless we can prove that he has 
permission from us, which they have refused to believe when we call them.  
  They will not give a receipt for a cash payment.
  They will not take a certified check.
  They will take a western union for a $24 surcharge.  

  And until he gets this paid (with penalties mounting every day) he cannot 
get his driver’s license back.  

  From: Bill Prince 
  Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2018 3:53 PM
  To: AFMUG 
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT aintcha glad

  You know what they say about doing the same thing over and over.

  If you don't try doing something different, you may never know what will 
work, and what doesn't

  It's clear what they were doing was not working. People would get thrown 
in the slammer for a minor offense, and not be able to post bail right away. 
When they eventually posted bail, they had lost their $7/hour job because they 
didn't show for a few days. Then they couldn't repay the bond. Then they would 
get thrown in jail for not paying that, rinse, repeat.

  It ends up being a tax on being poor. Kind of a dumb way to run things.

  In fairness, this isn't for every offender. There is a list of criteria 
regarding the degree of the offense, risks to the community, and so on. 


  It has worked well in some other areas already. CA is not breaking new 
ground here.

  --

  bp

  part15sbs{at}gmail{dot}com



  On Thu, Aug 30, 2018 at 2:45 PM  wrote:

It will be a really interesting social experiment.  Hope it works as 
they wish.

From: Bill Prince 
Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2018 3:41 PM
To: AFMUG 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT aintcha glad

They are such pillars of their communities.

--

bp

part15sbs{at}gmail{dot}com



On Thu, Aug 30, 2018 at 11:23 AM can...@believewireless.net 
 wrote:

  I read that yesterday. Crazy.

  On Thu, Aug 30, 2018 at 1:33 PM,  wrote:

You are not a bail bondsman in California...

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Re: [AFMUG] OT aintcha glad

[Bill Prince]

I think this is why the whole marijuana de-criminalization is happening.
After 50 years of the non-working "war on drugs", people are willing to try
something different.

Makes a good argument for setting up experimental laws that can fail fast,
and get replaced by a different theoretical solution.

--
bp
part15sbs{at}gmail{dot}com


On Thu, Aug 30, 2018 at 3:48 PM can...@believewireless.net <
p...@believewireless.net> wrote:

> Too difficult for me to figure out. Nothing seems to work either way. I
> have a hard enough time just
> getting 1's and 0's to flow down a tube. (Or over the air)
>
> On Thu, Aug 30, 2018 at 6:40 PM,  wrote:
>
>> They sure don’t try to help a guy get back on his feet.
>>
>> *From:* Bill Prince
>> *Sent:* Thursday, August 30, 2018 4:35 PM
>> *To:* AFMUG
>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT aintcha glad
>>
>> There is nothing so broken as a broken bureaucracy.
>> --
>> bp
>> part15sbs{at}gmail{dot}com
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Aug 30, 2018 at 2:59 PM  wrote:
>>
>>> I have an employee that was supposed to pay a “fee” to his parole
>>> officer or probation office or some such place.
>>>
>>> We have attempted to help him pay.
>>> They will not take a credit card unless we can prove that he has
>>> permission from us, which they have refused to believe when we call them.
>>> They will not give a receipt for a cash payment.
>>> They will not take a certified check.
>>> They will take a western union for a $24 surcharge.
>>>
>>> And until he gets this paid (with penalties mounting every day) he
>>> cannot get his driver’s license back.
>>>
>>> *From:* Bill Prince
>>> *Sent:* Thursday, August 30, 2018 3:53 PM
>>> *To:* AFMUG
>>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT aintcha glad
>>>
>>> You know what they say about doing the same thing over and over.
>>>
>>> If you don't try doing something different, you may never know what will
>>> work, and what doesn't
>>>
>>> It's clear what they were doing was not working. People would get thrown
>>> in the slammer for a minor offense, and not be able to post bail right
>>> away. When they eventually posted bail, they had lost their $7/hour job
>>> because they didn't show for a few days. Then they couldn't repay the bond.
>>> Then they would get thrown in jail for not paying that, rinse, repeat.
>>>
>>> It ends up being a tax on being poor. Kind of a dumb way to run things.
>>>
>>> In fairness, this isn't for every offender. There is a list of criteria
>>> regarding the degree of the offense, risks to the community, and so on.
>>>
>>> It has worked well in some other areas already. CA is not breaking new
>>> ground here.
>>>
>>> --
>>> bp
>>> part15sbs{at}gmail{dot}com
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Aug 30, 2018 at 2:45 PM  wrote:
>>>
 It will be a really interesting social experiment.  Hope it works as
 they wish.

 *From:* Bill Prince
 *Sent:* Thursday, August 30, 2018 3:41 PM
 *To:* AFMUG
 *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT aintcha glad

 They are such pillars of their communities.

 --
 bp
 part15sbs{at}gmail{dot}com


 On Thu, Aug 30, 2018 at 11:23 AM can...@believewireless.net <
 p...@believewireless.net> wrote:

> I read that yesterday. Crazy.
>
> On Thu, Aug 30, 2018 at 1:33 PM,  wrote:
>
>> You are not a bail bondsman in California...
>>
>> --
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>>
>>
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>>> --
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Re: [AFMUG] OT aintcha glad

[Bill Prince]

Yeah. They' don't really have incentive to actually "help" anyone. They're
just playing their little power trip game.
--
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On Thu, Aug 30, 2018 at 3:41 PM  wrote:

> They sure don’t try to help a guy get back on his feet.
>
> *From:* Bill Prince
> *Sent:* Thursday, August 30, 2018 4:35 PM
> *To:* AFMUG
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT aintcha glad
>
> There is nothing so broken as a broken bureaucracy.
> --
> bp
> part15sbs{at}gmail{dot}com
>
>
> On Thu, Aug 30, 2018 at 2:59 PM  wrote:
>
>> I have an employee that was supposed to pay a “fee” to his parole officer
>> or probation office or some such place.
>>
>> We have attempted to help him pay.
>> They will not take a credit card unless we can prove that he has
>> permission from us, which they have refused to believe when we call them.
>> They will not give a receipt for a cash payment.
>> They will not take a certified check.
>> They will take a western union for a $24 surcharge.
>>
>> And until he gets this paid (with penalties mounting every day) he cannot
>> get his driver’s license back.
>>
>> *From:* Bill Prince
>> *Sent:* Thursday, August 30, 2018 3:53 PM
>> *To:* AFMUG
>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT aintcha glad
>>
>> You know what they say about doing the same thing over and over.
>>
>> If you don't try doing something different, you may never know what will
>> work, and what doesn't
>>
>> It's clear what they were doing was not working. People would get thrown
>> in the slammer for a minor offense, and not be able to post bail right
>> away. When they eventually posted bail, they had lost their $7/hour job
>> because they didn't show for a few days. Then they couldn't repay the bond.
>> Then they would get thrown in jail for not paying that, rinse, repeat.
>>
>> It ends up being a tax on being poor. Kind of a dumb way to run things.
>>
>> In fairness, this isn't for every offender. There is a list of criteria
>> regarding the degree of the offense, risks to the community, and so on.
>>
>> It has worked well in some other areas already. CA is not breaking new
>> ground here.
>>
>> --
>> bp
>> part15sbs{at}gmail{dot}com
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Aug 30, 2018 at 2:45 PM  wrote:
>>
>>> It will be a really interesting social experiment.  Hope it works as
>>> they wish.
>>>
>>> *From:* Bill Prince
>>> *Sent:* Thursday, August 30, 2018 3:41 PM
>>> *To:* AFMUG
>>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT aintcha glad
>>>
>>> They are such pillars of their communities.
>>>
>>> --
>>> bp
>>> part15sbs{at}gmail{dot}com
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Aug 30, 2018 at 11:23 AM can...@believewireless.net <
>>> p...@believewireless.net> wrote:
>>>
 I read that yesterday. Crazy.

 On Thu, Aug 30, 2018 at 1:33 PM,  wrote:

> You are not a bail bondsman in California...
>
> --
> AF mailing list
> AF@af.afmug.com
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>
>
 --
 AF mailing list
 AF@af.afmug.com
 http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

>>> --
>>> --
>>> AF mailing list
>>> AF@af.afmug.com
>>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>>> --
>>> AF mailing list
>>> AF@af.afmug.com
>>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>>>
>> --
>> --
>> AF mailing list
>> AF@af.afmug.com
>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>> --
>> AF mailing list
>> AF@af.afmug.com
>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>>
> --
> --
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> AF@af.afmug.com
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
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>
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Re: [AFMUG] OT aintcha glad

[can...@believewireless.net]

Too difficult for me to figure out. Nothing seems to work either way. I
have a hard enough time just
getting 1's and 0's to flow down a tube. (Or over the air)

On Thu, Aug 30, 2018 at 6:40 PM,  wrote:

> They sure don’t try to help a guy get back on his feet.
>
> *From:* Bill Prince
> *Sent:* Thursday, August 30, 2018 4:35 PM
> *To:* AFMUG
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT aintcha glad
>
> There is nothing so broken as a broken bureaucracy.
> --
> bp
> part15sbs{at}gmail{dot}com
>
>
> On Thu, Aug 30, 2018 at 2:59 PM  wrote:
>
>> I have an employee that was supposed to pay a “fee” to his parole officer
>> or probation office or some such place.
>>
>> We have attempted to help him pay.
>> They will not take a credit card unless we can prove that he has
>> permission from us, which they have refused to believe when we call them.
>> They will not give a receipt for a cash payment.
>> They will not take a certified check.
>> They will take a western union for a $24 surcharge.
>>
>> And until he gets this paid (with penalties mounting every day) he cannot
>> get his driver’s license back.
>>
>> *From:* Bill Prince
>> *Sent:* Thursday, August 30, 2018 3:53 PM
>> *To:* AFMUG
>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT aintcha glad
>>
>> You know what they say about doing the same thing over and over.
>>
>> If you don't try doing something different, you may never know what will
>> work, and what doesn't
>>
>> It's clear what they were doing was not working. People would get thrown
>> in the slammer for a minor offense, and not be able to post bail right
>> away. When they eventually posted bail, they had lost their $7/hour job
>> because they didn't show for a few days. Then they couldn't repay the bond.
>> Then they would get thrown in jail for not paying that, rinse, repeat.
>>
>> It ends up being a tax on being poor. Kind of a dumb way to run things.
>>
>> In fairness, this isn't for every offender. There is a list of criteria
>> regarding the degree of the offense, risks to the community, and so on.
>>
>> It has worked well in some other areas already. CA is not breaking new
>> ground here.
>>
>> --
>> bp
>> part15sbs{at}gmail{dot}com
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Aug 30, 2018 at 2:45 PM  wrote:
>>
>>> It will be a really interesting social experiment.  Hope it works as
>>> they wish.
>>>
>>> *From:* Bill Prince
>>> *Sent:* Thursday, August 30, 2018 3:41 PM
>>> *To:* AFMUG
>>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT aintcha glad
>>>
>>> They are such pillars of their communities.
>>>
>>> --
>>> bp
>>> part15sbs{at}gmail{dot}com
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Aug 30, 2018 at 11:23 AM can...@believewireless.net <
>>> p...@believewireless.net> wrote:
>>>
 I read that yesterday. Crazy.

 On Thu, Aug 30, 2018 at 1:33 PM,  wrote:

> You are not a bail bondsman in California...
>
> --
> AF mailing list
> AF@af.afmug.com
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>
>
 --
 AF mailing list
 AF@af.afmug.com
 http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

>>> --
>>> --
>>> AF mailing list
>>> AF@af.afmug.com
>>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>>>
>>> --
>>> AF mailing list
>>> AF@af.afmug.com
>>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>>>
>> --
>> --
>> AF mailing list
>> AF@af.afmug.com
>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>>
>> --
>> AF mailing list
>> AF@af.afmug.com
>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>>
> --
> --
> AF mailing list
> AF@af.afmug.com
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>
>
> --
> AF mailing list
> AF@af.afmug.com
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>
>
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Re: [AFMUG] OT aintcha glad

[chuck]

They sure don’t try to help a guy get back on his feet.  

From: Bill Prince 
Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2018 4:35 PM
To: AFMUG 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT aintcha glad

There is nothing so broken as a broken bureaucracy. 

--

bp

part15sbs{at}gmail{dot}com



On Thu, Aug 30, 2018 at 2:59 PM  wrote:

  I have an employee that was supposed to pay a “fee” to his parole officer or 
probation office or some such place.

  We have attempted to help him pay.  
  They will not take a credit card unless we can prove that he has permission 
from us, which they have refused to believe when we call them.  
  They will not give a receipt for a cash payment.
  They will not take a certified check.
  They will take a western union for a $24 surcharge.  

  And until he gets this paid (with penalties mounting every day) he cannot get 
his driver’s license back.  

  From: Bill Prince 
  Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2018 3:53 PM
  To: AFMUG 
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT aintcha glad

  You know what they say about doing the same thing over and over.

  If you don't try doing something different, you may never know what will 
work, and what doesn't

  It's clear what they were doing was not working. People would get thrown in 
the slammer for a minor offense, and not be able to post bail right away. When 
they eventually posted bail, they had lost their $7/hour job because they 
didn't show for a few days. Then they couldn't repay the bond. Then they would 
get thrown in jail for not paying that, rinse, repeat.

  It ends up being a tax on being poor. Kind of a dumb way to run things.

  In fairness, this isn't for every offender. There is a list of criteria 
regarding the degree of the offense, risks to the community, and so on. 


  It has worked well in some other areas already. CA is not breaking new ground 
here.

  --

  bp

  part15sbs{at}gmail{dot}com



  On Thu, Aug 30, 2018 at 2:45 PM  wrote:

It will be a really interesting social experiment.  Hope it works as they 
wish.

From: Bill Prince 
Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2018 3:41 PM
To: AFMUG 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT aintcha glad

They are such pillars of their communities.

--

bp

part15sbs{at}gmail{dot}com



On Thu, Aug 30, 2018 at 11:23 AM can...@believewireless.net 
 wrote:

  I read that yesterday. Crazy.

  On Thu, Aug 30, 2018 at 1:33 PM,  wrote:

You are not a bail bondsman in California...

-- 
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AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com



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  http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com




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Re: [AFMUG] OT aintcha glad

[Bill Prince]

There is nothing so broken as a broken bureaucracy.
--
bp
part15sbs{at}gmail{dot}com


On Thu, Aug 30, 2018 at 2:59 PM  wrote:

> I have an employee that was supposed to pay a “fee” to his parole officer
> or probation office or some such place.
>
> We have attempted to help him pay.
> They will not take a credit card unless we can prove that he has
> permission from us, which they have refused to believe when we call them.
> They will not give a receipt for a cash payment.
> They will not take a certified check.
> They will take a western union for a $24 surcharge.
>
> And until he gets this paid (with penalties mounting every day) he cannot
> get his driver’s license back.
>
> *From:* Bill Prince
> *Sent:* Thursday, August 30, 2018 3:53 PM
> *To:* AFMUG
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT aintcha glad
>
> You know what they say about doing the same thing over and over.
>
> If you don't try doing something different, you may never know what will
> work, and what doesn't
>
> It's clear what they were doing was not working. People would get thrown
> in the slammer for a minor offense, and not be able to post bail right
> away. When they eventually posted bail, they had lost their $7/hour job
> because they didn't show for a few days. Then they couldn't repay the bond.
> Then they would get thrown in jail for not paying that, rinse, repeat.
>
> It ends up being a tax on being poor. Kind of a dumb way to run things.
>
> In fairness, this isn't for every offender. There is a list of criteria
> regarding the degree of the offense, risks to the community, and so on.
>
> It has worked well in some other areas already. CA is not breaking new
> ground here.
>
> --
> bp
> part15sbs{at}gmail{dot}com
>
>
> On Thu, Aug 30, 2018 at 2:45 PM  wrote:
>
>> It will be a really interesting social experiment.  Hope it works as they
>> wish.
>>
>> *From:* Bill Prince
>> *Sent:* Thursday, August 30, 2018 3:41 PM
>> *To:* AFMUG
>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT aintcha glad
>>
>> They are such pillars of their communities.
>>
>> --
>> bp
>> part15sbs{at}gmail{dot}com
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Aug 30, 2018 at 11:23 AM can...@believewireless.net <
>> p...@believewireless.net> wrote:
>>
>>> I read that yesterday. Crazy.
>>>
>>> On Thu, Aug 30, 2018 at 1:33 PM,  wrote:
>>>
 You are not a bail bondsman in California...

 --
 AF mailing list
 AF@af.afmug.com
 http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com


>>> --
>>> AF mailing list
>>> AF@af.afmug.com
>>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>>>
>> --
>> --
>> AF mailing list
>> AF@af.afmug.com
>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>> --
>> AF mailing list
>> AF@af.afmug.com
>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>>
> --
> --
> AF mailing list
> AF@af.afmug.com
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
> --
> AF mailing list
> AF@af.afmug.com
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>
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AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

Re: [AFMUG] OT aintcha glad

[chuck]

I have an employee that was supposed to pay a “fee” to his parole officer or 
probation office or some such place.

We have attempted to help him pay.  
They will not take a credit card unless we can prove that he has permission 
from us, which they have refused to believe when we call them.  
They will not give a receipt for a cash payment.
They will not take a certified check.
They will take a western union for a $24 surcharge.  

And until he gets this paid (with penalties mounting every day) he cannot get 
his driver’s license back.  

From: Bill Prince 
Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2018 3:53 PM
To: AFMUG 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT aintcha glad

You know what they say about doing the same thing over and over.

If you don't try doing something different, you may never know what will work, 
and what doesn't

It's clear what they were doing was not working. People would get thrown in the 
slammer for a minor offense, and not be able to post bail right away. When they 
eventually posted bail, they had lost their $7/hour job because they didn't 
show for a few days. Then they couldn't repay the bond. Then they would get 
thrown in jail for not paying that, rinse, repeat.

It ends up being a tax on being poor. Kind of a dumb way to run things.

In fairness, this isn't for every offender. There is a list of criteria 
regarding the degree of the offense, risks to the community, and so on. 


It has worked well in some other areas already. CA is not breaking new ground 
here.

--

bp

part15sbs{at}gmail{dot}com



On Thu, Aug 30, 2018 at 2:45 PM  wrote:

  It will be a really interesting social experiment.  Hope it works as they 
wish.

  From: Bill Prince 
  Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2018 3:41 PM
  To: AFMUG 
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT aintcha glad

  They are such pillars of their communities.

  --

  bp

  part15sbs{at}gmail{dot}com



  On Thu, Aug 30, 2018 at 11:23 AM can...@believewireless.net 
 wrote:

I read that yesterday. Crazy.

On Thu, Aug 30, 2018 at 1:33 PM,  wrote:

  You are not a bail bondsman in California...

  -- 
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Re: [AFMUG] OT aintcha glad

[Bill Prince]

You know what they say about doing the same thing over and over.

If you don't try doing something different, you may never know what will
work, and what doesn't

It's clear what they were doing was not working. People would get thrown in
the slammer for a minor offense, and not be able to post bail right away.
When they eventually posted bail, they had lost their $7/hour job because
they didn't show for a few days. Then they couldn't repay the bond. Then
they would get thrown in jail for not paying that, rinse, repeat.

It ends up being a tax on being poor. Kind of a dumb way to run things.

In fairness, this isn't for every offender. There is a list of criteria
regarding the degree of the offense, risks to the community, and so on.

It has worked well in some other areas already. CA is not breaking new
ground here.

--
bp
part15sbs{at}gmail{dot}com


On Thu, Aug 30, 2018 at 2:45 PM  wrote:

> It will be a really interesting social experiment.  Hope it works as they
> wish.
>
> *From:* Bill Prince
> *Sent:* Thursday, August 30, 2018 3:41 PM
> *To:* AFMUG
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] OT aintcha glad
>
> They are such pillars of their communities.
>
> --
> bp
> part15sbs{at}gmail{dot}com
>
>
> On Thu, Aug 30, 2018 at 11:23 AM can...@believewireless.net <
> p...@believewireless.net> wrote:
>
>> I read that yesterday. Crazy.
>>
>> On Thu, Aug 30, 2018 at 1:33 PM,  wrote:
>>
>>> You are not a bail bondsman in California...
>>>
>>> --
>>> AF mailing list
>>> AF@af.afmug.com
>>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>>>
>>>
>> --
>> AF mailing list
>> AF@af.afmug.com
>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>>
> --
> --
> AF mailing list
> AF@af.afmug.com
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
> --
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> AF@af.afmug.com
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>
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Re: [AFMUG] OT aintcha glad

[chuck]

It will be a really interesting social experiment.  Hope it works as they wish.

From: Bill Prince 
Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2018 3:41 PM
To: AFMUG 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT aintcha glad

They are such pillars of their communities.

--

bp

part15sbs{at}gmail{dot}com



On Thu, Aug 30, 2018 at 11:23 AM can...@believewireless.net 
 wrote:

  I read that yesterday. Crazy.

  On Thu, Aug 30, 2018 at 1:33 PM,  wrote:

You are not a bail bondsman in California...

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Re: [AFMUG] OT aintcha glad

[Bill Prince]

They are such pillars of their communities.

--
bp
part15sbs{at}gmail{dot}com


On Thu, Aug 30, 2018 at 11:23 AM can...@believewireless.net <
p...@believewireless.net> wrote:

> I read that yesterday. Crazy.
>
> On Thu, Aug 30, 2018 at 1:33 PM,  wrote:
>
>> You are not a bail bondsman in California...
>>
>> --
>> AF mailing list
>> AF@af.afmug.com
>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>>
>>
> --
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> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>
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Re: [AFMUG] OT aintcha glad

[can...@believewireless.net]

I read that yesterday. Crazy.

On Thu, Aug 30, 2018 at 1:33 PM,  wrote:

> You are not a bail bondsman in California...
>
> --
> AF mailing list
> AF@af.afmug.com
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>
>
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[AFMUG] OT aintcha glad

[chuck]

You are not a bail bondsman in California...-- 
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Re: [AFMUG] Ubiquiti Ufiber

[Mark - Myakka Technologies]

Title: Re: [AFMUG] Ubiquiti Ufiber


Chuck,

Marker balls are about $8.  Yes, you need to have a locator that supports finding them.

-- 
Best regards,
 Mark                            mailto:m...@mailmt.com

Myakka Technologies, Inc.
www.MyakkaTech.com

--

Thursday, August 30, 2018, 10:48:29 AM, you wrote:





How much do those marker balls cost?
Does it take a special locator to find them?
 
From: Mark - Myakka Technologies
Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2018 8:44 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Ubiquiti Ufiber
 
Colin,

We have direct buried some coyotes in fringe areas with 1x2 splitters in them.  Always throw a marker ball on top is we need to find it later.

-- 
Best regards,
Mark                            mailto:m...@mailmt.com

Myakka Technologies, Inc.
www.MyakkaTech.com

--

Wednesday, August 29, 2018, 8:59:07 PM, you wrote:





In standard vaults; although rated for such I could never imagine direct-burying a splice case.


On Wed, Aug 29, 2018, 7:56 PM Chuck McCown  wrote:




Are the splice cases in hand holes or bured?

From: Colin Stanners
Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2018 6:51 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Ubiquiti Ufiber

We're going to put these in splice cases that would cost easily thousands of dollars to hydrovac-unfreeze and replace if a single splitter failed in -40 degree winter... now Fiberstore SFPs are great but tell me, in the above case would you put a $11 FS Splitter or a $60 huge-name-brand splitter?

On Wed, Aug 29, 2018, 3:40 PM Mark - Myakka Technologies  wrote:




Colin,

$60.00?

FS.com 1x16 PLC bare fiber $11.00

-- 
Best regards,
Mark                            mailto:m...@mailmt.com

Myakka Technologies, Inc.
www.MyakkaTech.com

--

Wednesday, August 29, 2018, 3:18:14 PM, you wrote:





ActiveEthernet: Property acquisition for the land, legal fees, concrete pad, electrical install, cabinet, UPS, heating/cooling, fiber switch is probably $10,000 - 15,000 including cost of time. When we're busy I'm not sure that it would be worth doing for only 30 homes.

PON: two 1x16 fiber splitters that fit in existing splice cases and require none of that support cost $60 each.

Shared bandwidth...16 customers sharing 2.5gbit fiber looks pretty good when we still have tower sites with 16 customers on a 10mbit 2.4Ghz FSK AP. And 10Gbit GPON seems to be coming soon... 




On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 2:04 PM  wrote:




If you have one strand going out there, you hang a switch and give all 30 homes active E.  

Each home needs a drop.  
So you have to connect the drop to either a splitter or an SFP.  

With AE you will have to power the switch but then  you have no shared bandwidth, it has market cache vs shared bandwidth old fashioned GPON etc...



From: Colin Stanners
Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2018 12:57 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Ubiquiti Ufiber

That's the main reason, and it branches into upgradeability. If a new 30-house subdivision appears in a field a few miles from your headend, and you have a spare 10 strands going out there, you only need to use 2-3 strands instead of running new 48-strand cable the whole way.

On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 1:53 PM  wrote:




So, other than the obvious strand count advantages, why would you use this vs active ethernet?

From: Jim Bouse [Brazos WiFi]
Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2018 12:04 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Ubiquiti Ufiber

It works fine.  We have it in 2 subdivisions.
It is brain dead simple to configure.
Since it “Just Works” there isn’t a lot to configure.  The ONU (cpe) can run in bridge or router mode.  I’m not sure what the routing/NAT speeds are capable of but it will do 1G in bridge mode without breaking a sweat.

Jim Bouse
Owner - Brazos WiFi
979-985-5912
http://www.brazoswifi.com

From: AF  On Behalf Of Jason McKemie
Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2018 12:17 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: [AFMUG] Ubiquiti Ufiber

Does anyone actually have this equipment in a production environment?  I have a test setup, just haven't heard much discussion about it so I thought I'd check with the group.
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Re: [AFMUG] Ubiquiti Ufiber

[Chris Fabien]

Calix is totally out of touch on pricing. We talked to them and really
pushed on the pricing. They still sell their GPON gear like it was brand
new technology they invented. In reality its 15 year old commodity tech. It
*should* be cheap.

We are self funded and weren't looking to take on huge debt to get into
FTTH which first led us to active and then to ZTE GPON. It works fine. 3rd
party support knows the product well and their tools are better than the
ZTE tools I think.  This was just when the UFiber was first released in
beta. It's probably a viable option now if it has the features you need,
and you are willing to pay more(vs china gpon gear) for a USA brand you are
familiar with.

On Thu, Aug 30, 2018, 10:43 AM  wrote:

> Is this with UBNT?
> Calix electronics cost per customer on GPON is about $570 for the
> electronics.  (both ends, pro-rata shares, cyber power, etc)
>
> *From:* Mark - Myakka Technologies
> *Sent:* Thursday, August 30, 2018 8:38 AM
> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Ubiquiti Ufiber
>
> Chuck,
>
> We do 1x32 so double these numbers.  Basing this on our 7 slot chassis
> using the expensive 10G uplink cards.
>
> Fully loaded 1x32 splits for 1792 customers $32/customer
>
> loaded with 4 cards for 1024 customers $35/customer
>
>
> 1 card for 256 customers about $65/customers
>
>
> Not going to argue that AE is cheaper.  I will yield to that claim.
>
>
> *-- Best regards,Mark*mailto:m...@mailmt.com
>
>
> *Myakka Technologies, Inc.*www.MyakkaTech.com
>
>
>
>
>
> *--Wednesday, August 29, 2018, 8:40:25 PM, you wrote:*
>
> So, what is the cost per customer for a 16:1 PON system for the
> electronics?
>
> *From:* Mark - Myakka Technologies
> *Sent:* Wednesday, August 29, 2018 2:34 PM
> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Ubiquiti Ufiber
>
> Chuck,
>
> My 0.02
>
> First of all we would have to determine what type of AE we are talking
> about.  Are we talking a managed system like calix, zhone, etc with AE
> cards in them using their respective OLT's? Or, are we talking about the
> DIY stacking 48 port switches on top of each other and throwing some
> mikrotiks out there?
>
> Also, we need to talk about density?  How many customers are we talking?
> AE is fine for smaller build outs, but doesn't scale well.  The one big
> advantage of AE over GPON is distance.  You can economically run 4x as far
> on AE as GPON.  The best we can do on our GPON system is about 30km if we
> us a Class C+ laser.
>
> Using my test cage as an example.  This is a 4U cage with 7 slots.  If I
> use seven 8port cards, that gives me a maximum of 1792 customers in a 4U
> space. That is 1792 customers powered by one redundant power supply
> system.  Also, that is 56 fiber cables running from the cage to the patch
> panel.
>
> If I do AE on the 4U cage using 7 AE cards, I can get 140 customers in the
> same space.  About the same power requirements, but I'm using 140 fiber
> cables at this point.
>
> Now if I move the the DIY AE system maybe I can get 48 per 1U.  That will
> give me 192 AE customers in a 4U space.  But now I'm dealing with either 4
> or 8 power plugs.  Not to mention 192 individual fiber jumpers to keep
> track of.
>
>
> Now there once was an argument that with AE, one could guarantee 1G speeds
> at each port.  I don't think that argument holds much water anymore.  With
> GPON you can sell 1G download speeds at 16 to 1 ratio.  10G GPON is
> available now where you can down to 3 to 1 ration.  I believe there is even
> a 40G GPON so to be available.
>
> AE's advantage is distance and it being AE.  For example being it is AE
> you can interrupt fiber run with a wireless link if needed, can't do that
> with GPON.
>
>
> "If you have one strand going out there, you hang a switch and give all 30
> homes active E".  That is great, but now you have to have a cabinet that
> needs power and BBU.  You are sharing a 1G , unless you you pop for a 10G
> laser.  Under GPON, you just go out and pop in a 1x32 splitter and off you
> go. No cabinet or power needed.
>
>
> At the end of the day the individual has to look at the pro/cons of each
> system and figure out the right tool for the job.
>
>
> *-- Best regards,Mark*mailto:m...@mailmt.com
>
>
> *Myakka Technologies, Inc.*www.MyakkaTech.com
>
>
>
>
>
> *--Wednesday, August 29, 2018, 2:52:22 PM, you wrote:*
>
> So, other than the obvious strand count advantages, why would you use this
> vs active ethernet?
>
> *From: *
> *Jim Bouse [Brazos WiFi]**Sent:* Wednesday, August 29, 2018 12:04 PM
> *To: *
> *AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group**Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Ubiquiti Ufiber
>
> It works fine.  We have it in 2 subdivisions.
> It is brain dead simple to configure.
> Since it “Just Works” there isn’t a lot to configure.  The ONU (cpe) can
> run in bridge or router mode.  I’m not sure what the routing/NAT speeds are
> capable of but it will do 1G in bridge mo

Re: [AFMUG] Ubiquiti Ufiber

[Mark - Myakka Technologies]

Title: Re: [AFMUG] Ubiquiti Ufiber


Chuck,

This is with zhone and does not include the client side.  These are just head end numbers.  No power plant figured into this.

-- 
Best regards,
 Mark                            mailto:m...@mailmt.com

Myakka Technologies, Inc.
www.MyakkaTech.com

--

Thursday, August 30, 2018, 10:42:36 AM, you wrote:





Is this with UBNT?
Calix electronics cost per customer on GPON is about $570 for the electronics.  (both ends, pro-rata shares, cyber power, etc)
 
From: Mark - Myakka Technologies
Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2018 8:38 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Ubiquiti Ufiber
 
Chuck,

We do 1x32 so double these numbers.  Basing this on our 7 slot chassis using the expensive 10G uplink cards. 

Fully loaded 1x32 splits for 1792 customers $32/customer

loaded with 4 cards for 1024 customers $35/customer


1 card for 256 customers about $65/customers


Not going to argue that AE is cheaper.  I will yield to that claim.
-- 
Best regards,
Mark                            mailto:m...@mailmt.com

Myakka Technologies, Inc.
www.MyakkaTech.com

--

Wednesday, August 29, 2018, 8:40:25 PM, you wrote:





So, what is the cost per customer for a 16:1 PON system for the electronics?

From: Mark - Myakka Technologies
Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2018 2:34 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Ubiquiti Ufiber

Chuck,

My 0.02

First of all we would have to determine what type of AE we are talking about.  Are we talking a managed system like calix, zhone, etc with AE cards in them using their respective OLT's? Or, are we talking about the DIY stacking 48 port switches on top of each other and throwing some mikrotiks out there?

Also, we need to talk about density?  How many customers are we talking?  AE is fine for smaller build outs, but doesn't scale well.  The one big advantage of AE over GPON is distance.  You can economically run 4x as far on AE as GPON.  The best we can do on our GPON system is about 30km if we us a Class C+ laser.

Using my test cage as an example.  This is a 4U cage with 7 slots.  If I use seven 8port cards, that gives me a maximum of 1792 customers in a 4U space. That is 1792 customers powered by one redundant power supply system.  Also, that is 56 fiber cables running from the cage to the patch panel.

If I do AE on the 4U cage using 7 AE cards, I can get 140 customers in the same space.  About the same power requirements, but I'm using 140 fiber cables at this point.

Now if I move the the DIY AE system maybe I can get 48 per 1U.  That will give me 192 AE customers in a 4U space.  But now I'm dealing with either 4 or 8 power plugs.  Not to mention 192 individual fiber jumpers to keep track of.


Now there once was an argument that with AE, one could guarantee 1G speeds at each port.  I don't think that argument holds much water anymore.  With GPON you can sell 1G download speeds at 16 to 1 ratio.  10G GPON is available now where you can down to 3 to 1 ration.  I believe there is even a 40G GPON so to be available.

AE's advantage is distance and it being AE.  For example being it is AE you can interrupt fiber run with a wireless link if needed, can't do that with GPON.


"If you have one strand going out there, you hang a switch and give all 30 homes active E".  That is great, but now you have to have a cabinet that needs power and BBU.  You are sharing a 1G , unless you you pop for a 10G laser.  Under GPON, you just go out and pop in a 1x32 splitter and off you go. No cabinet or power needed.


At the end of the day the individual has to look at the pro/cons of each system and figure out the right tool for the job.
-- 
Best regards,
Mark                            mailto:m...@mailmt.com

Myakka Technologies, Inc.
www.MyakkaTech.com

--

Wednesday, August 29, 2018, 2:52:22 PM, you wrote:





So, other than the obvious strand count advantages, why would you use this vs active ethernet?

From: Jim Bouse [Brazos WiFi]
Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2018 12:04 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Ubiquiti Ufiber

It works fine.  We have it in 2 subdivisions.
It is brain dead simple to configure.
Since it “Just Works” there isn’t a lot to configure.  The ONU (cpe) can run in bridge or router mode.  I’m not sure what the routing/NAT speeds are capable of but it will do 1G in bridge mode without breaking a sweat.

Jim Bouse
Owner - Brazos WiFi
979-985-5912
http://www.brazoswifi.com

From: AF  On Behalf Of Jason McKemie
Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2018 12:17 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: [AFMUG] Ubiquiti Ufiber

Does anyone actually have this equipment in a production environment?  I have a test setup, just haven't heard much discussion about it so I thought I'd check with the group.
-- 
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com


-- 
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--

Re: [AFMUG] Ubiquiti Ufiber

[chuck]

Re: [AFMUG] Ubiquiti UfiberHow much do those marker balls cost?
Does it take a special locator to find them?

From: Mark - Myakka Technologies 
Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2018 8:44 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Ubiquiti Ufiber

Colin,

We have direct buried some coyotes in fringe areas with 1x2 splitters in them.  
Always throw a marker ball on top is we need to find it later.

-- 
Best regards,
Markmailto:m...@mailmt.com

Myakka Technologies, Inc.
www.MyakkaTech.com

--

Wednesday, August 29, 2018, 8:59:07 PM, you wrote:


 In standard vaults; although rated for such I could never imagine 
direct-burying a splice case.


  On Wed, Aug 29, 2018, 7:56 PM Chuck McCown  wrote:

   Are the splice cases in hand holes or bured?

From: Colin Stanners
Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2018 6:51 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Ubiquiti Ufiber

We're going to put these in splice cases that would cost easily 
thousands of dollars to hydrovac-unfreeze and replace if a single splitter 
failed in -40 degree winter... now Fiberstore SFPs are great but tell me, in 
the above case would you put a $11 FS Splitter or a $60 huge-name-brand 
splitter?

On Wed, Aug 29, 2018, 3:40 PM Mark - Myakka Technologies 
 wrote:

 Colin,

  $60.00?

  FS.com 1x16 PLC bare fiber $11.00

  -- 
  Best regards,
  Markmailto:m...@mailmt.com

  Myakka Technologies, Inc.
  www.MyakkaTech.com

  --

  Wednesday, August 29, 2018, 3:18:14 PM, you wrote:


   ActiveEthernet: Property acquisition for the land, legal 
fees, concrete pad, electrical install, cabinet, UPS, heating/cooling, fiber 
switch is probably $10,000 - 15,000 including cost of time. When we're busy I'm 
not sure that it would be worth doing for only 30 homes.

PON: two 1x16 fiber splitters that fit in existing 
splice cases and require none of that support cost $60 each.

Shared bandwidth...16 customers sharing 2.5gbit fiber 
looks pretty good when we still have tower sites with 16 customers on a 10mbit 
2.4Ghz FSK AP. And 10Gbit GPON seems to be coming soon... 




On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 2:04 PM  wrote:

 If you have one strand going out there, you hang a 
switch and give all 30 homes active E.  

  Each home needs a drop.  
  So you have to connect the drop to either a 
splitter or an SFP.  

  With AE you will have to power the switch but 
then  you have no shared bandwidth, it has market cache vs shared bandwidth old 
fashioned GPON etc...



  From: Colin Stanners
  Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2018 12:57 PM
  To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Ubiquiti Ufiber

  That's the main reason, and it branches into 
upgradeability. If a new 30-house subdivision appears in a field a few miles 
from your headend, and you have a spare 10 strands going out there, you only 
need to use 2-3 strands instead of running new 48-strand cable the whole way.

  On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 1:53 PM  
wrote:

 So, other than the obvious strand count 
advantages, why would you use this vs active ethernet?

From: Jim Bouse [Brazos WiFi]
Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2018 12:04 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Ubiquiti Ufiber

It works fine.  We have it in 2 subdivisions.
It is brain dead simple to configure.
Since it “Just Works” there isn’t a lot to 
configure.  The ONU (cpe) can run in bridge or router mode.  I’m not sure what 
the routing/NAT speeds are capable of but it will do 1G in bridge mode without 
breaking a sweat.

Jim Bouse
Owner - Brazos WiFi
979-985-5912
http://www.brazoswifi.com

From: AF  On Behalf Of 
Jason McKemie
Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2018 12:17 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 

Subject: [AFMUG] Ubiquiti Ufiber

Does anyone actually have this equipment in a 
produ

Re: [AFMUG] Ubiquiti Ufiber

[Mark - Myakka Technologies]

Title: Re: [AFMUG] Ubiquiti Ufiber


Jason,

Trouble shooting a splitter isn't that bad.  If everyone after the splitter is having an issue it is either the splitter or before the splitter.  If only one person is having the issue then it is after the splitter.

-- 
Best regards,
 Mark                            mailto:m...@mailmt.com

Myakka Technologies, Inc.
www.MyakkaTech.com

--

Thursday, August 30, 2018, 2:50:40 AM, you wrote:





For me, troubleshooting a problem with a link is a huge advantage of AE. You could just do a splitter at the cabinet with PON and get a lot of the same advantages - then the only advantage PON has is power usage though.

On Wednesday, August 29, 2018, Eric Kuhnke  wrote:




Not mentioned, but the other HUGE advantage of AE is that you're able to use a huge variety of equipment. The amount of stuff out there that you can do AE with vs GPON is like a 90:1 ratio. I have an AE setup using a datacenter-grade Arista 7148 capable of 1/10GbE to the customer and it was a very affordable switch to purchase. 

You can use all sorts of ex-datacenter equipment and things that were designed for corporate LAN aggregation and leaf/spline architecture, repurposed for AE residential. With GPON you have maybe ten realistic choices of equipment vendors.



On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 1:36 PM Mark - Myakka Technologies  wrote:




Chuck,

My 0.02

First of all we would have to determine what type of AE we are talking about.  Are we talking a managed system like calix, zhone, etc with AE cards in them using their respective OLT's? Or, are we talking about the DIY stacking 48 port switches on top of each other and throwing some mikrotiks out there?

Also, we need to talk about density?  How many customers are we talking?  AE is fine for smaller build outs, but doesn't scale well.  The one big advantage of AE over GPON is distance.  You can economically run 4x as far on AE as GPON.  The best we can do on our GPON system is about 30km if we us a Class C+ laser.

Using my test cage as an example.  This is a 4U cage with 7 slots.  If I use seven 8port cards, that gives me a maximum of 1792 customers in a 4U space. That is 1792 customers powered by one redundant power supply system.  Also, that is 56 fiber cables running from the cage to the patch panel.

If I do AE on the 4U cage using 7 AE cards, I can get 140 customers in the same space.  About the same power requirements, but I'm using 140 fiber cables at this point.

Now if I move the the DIY AE system maybe I can get 48 per 1U.  That will give me 192 AE customers in a 4U space.  But now I'm dealing with either 4 or 8 power plugs.  Not to mention 192 individual fiber jumpers to keep track of.


Now there once was an argument that with AE, one could guarantee 1G speeds at each port.  I don't think that argument holds much water anymore.  With GPON you can sell 1G download speeds at 16 to 1 ratio.  10G GPON is available now where you can down to 3 to 1 ration.  I believe there is even a 40G GPON so to be available.

AE's advantage is distance and it being AE.  For example being it is AE you can interrupt fiber run with a wireless link if needed, can't do that with GPON.


"If you have one strand going out there, you hang a switch and give all 30 homes active E".  That is great, but now you have to have a cabinet that needs power and BBU.  You are sharing a 1G , unless you you pop for a 10G laser.  Under GPON, you just go out and pop in a 1x32 splitter and off you go. No cabinet or power needed.


At the end of the day the individual has to look at the pro/cons of each system and figure out the right tool for the job.
-- 
Best regards,
Mark                            mailto:m...@mailmt.com

Myakka Technologies, Inc.
www.MyakkaTech.com

--

Wednesday, August 29, 2018, 2:52:22 PM, you wrote:





So, other than the obvious strand count advantages, why would you use this vs active ethernet?

From: Jim Bouse [Brazos WiFi]
Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2018 12:04 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Ubiquiti Ufiber

It works fine.  We have it in 2 subdivisions.
It is brain dead simple to configure.
Since it “Just Works” there isn’t a lot to configure.  The ONU (cpe) can run in bridge or router mode.  I’m not sure what the routing/NAT speeds are capable of but it will do 1G in bridge mode without breaking a sweat.

Jim Bouse
Owner - Brazos WiFi
979-985-5912
http://www.brazoswifi.com

From: AF  On Behalf Of Jason McKemie
Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2018 12:17 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: [AFMUG] Ubiquiti Ufiber

Does anyone actually have this equipment in a production environment?  I have a test setup, just haven't heard much discussion about it so I thought I'd check with the group.
-- 
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com


-- 
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Re: [AFMUG] Ubiquiti Ufiber

[Mark - Myakka Technologies]

Title: Re: [AFMUG] Ubiquiti Ufiber


Colin,

We have direct buried some coyotes in fringe areas with 1x2 splitters in them.  Always throw a marker ball on top is we need to find it later.

-- 
Best regards,
 Mark                            mailto:m...@mailmt.com

Myakka Technologies, Inc.
www.MyakkaTech.com

--

Wednesday, August 29, 2018, 8:59:07 PM, you wrote:





In standard vaults; although rated for such I could never imagine direct-burying a splice case.


On Wed, Aug 29, 2018, 7:56 PM Chuck McCown  wrote:




Are the splice cases in hand holes or bured?
 
From: Colin Stanners
Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2018 6:51 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Ubiquiti Ufiber
 
We're going to put these in splice cases that would cost easily thousands of dollars to hydrovac-unfreeze and replace if a single splitter failed in -40 degree winter... now Fiberstore SFPs are great but tell me, in the above case would you put a $11 FS Splitter or a $60 huge-name-brand splitter?
 
On Wed, Aug 29, 2018, 3:40 PM Mark - Myakka Technologies  wrote:




Colin,

$60.00?

FS.com 1x16 PLC bare fiber $11.00

-- 
Best regards,
Mark                            mailto:m...@mailmt.com

Myakka Technologies, Inc.
www.MyakkaTech.com

--

Wednesday, August 29, 2018, 3:18:14 PM, you wrote:





ActiveEthernet: Property acquisition for the land, legal fees, concrete pad, electrical install, cabinet, UPS, heating/cooling, fiber switch is probably $10,000 - 15,000 including cost of time. When we're busy I'm not sure that it would be worth doing for only 30 homes.

PON: two 1x16 fiber splitters that fit in existing splice cases and require none of that support cost $60 each.

Shared bandwidth...16 customers sharing 2.5gbit fiber looks pretty good when we still have tower sites with 16 customers on a 10mbit 2.4Ghz FSK AP. And 10Gbit GPON seems to be coming soon... 




On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 2:04 PM  wrote:




If you have one strand going out there, you hang a switch and give all 30 homes active E.  

Each home needs a drop.  
So you have to connect the drop to either a splitter or an SFP.  

With AE you will have to power the switch but then  you have no shared bandwidth, it has market cache vs shared bandwidth old fashioned GPON etc...



From: Colin Stanners
Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2018 12:57 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Ubiquiti Ufiber

That's the main reason, and it branches into upgradeability. If a new 30-house subdivision appears in a field a few miles from your headend, and you have a spare 10 strands going out there, you only need to use 2-3 strands instead of running new 48-strand cable the whole way.

On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 1:53 PM  wrote:




So, other than the obvious strand count advantages, why would you use this vs active ethernet?

From: Jim Bouse [Brazos WiFi]
Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2018 12:04 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Ubiquiti Ufiber

It works fine.  We have it in 2 subdivisions.
It is brain dead simple to configure.
Since it “Just Works” there isn’t a lot to configure.  The ONU (cpe) can run in bridge or router mode.  I’m not sure what the routing/NAT speeds are capable of but it will do 1G in bridge mode without breaking a sweat.

Jim Bouse
Owner - Brazos WiFi
979-985-5912
http://www.brazoswifi.com

From: AF  On Behalf Of Jason McKemie
Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2018 12:17 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: [AFMUG] Ubiquiti Ufiber

Does anyone actually have this equipment in a production environment?  I have a test setup, just haven't heard much discussion about it so I thought I'd check with the group.
-- 
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
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Re: [AFMUG] Ubiquiti Ufiber

[chuck]

Re: [AFMUG] Ubiquiti UfiberIs this with UBNT?
Calix electronics cost per customer on GPON is about $570 for the electronics.  
(both ends, pro-rata shares, cyber power, etc)

From: Mark - Myakka Technologies 
Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2018 8:38 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Ubiquiti Ufiber

Chuck,

We do 1x32 so double these numbers.  Basing this on our 7 slot chassis using 
the expensive 10G uplink cards. 

Fully loaded 1x32 splits for 1792 customers $32/customer

loaded with 4 cards for 1024 customers $35/customer


1 card for 256 customers about $65/customers


Not going to argue that AE is cheaper.  I will yield to that claim.
-- 
Best regards,
Markmailto:m...@mailmt.com

Myakka Technologies, Inc.
www.MyakkaTech.com

--

Wednesday, August 29, 2018, 8:40:25 PM, you wrote:


 So, what is the cost per customer for a 16:1 PON system for the 
electronics?

  From: Mark - Myakka Technologies
  Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2018 2:34 PM
  To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Ubiquiti Ufiber

  Chuck,

  My 0.02

  First of all we would have to determine what type of AE we are talking 
about.  Are we talking a managed system like calix, zhone, etc with AE cards in 
them using their respective OLT's? Or, are we talking about the DIY stacking 48 
port switches on top of each other and throwing some mikrotiks out there?

  Also, we need to talk about density?  How many customers are we talking?  
AE is fine for smaller build outs, but doesn't scale well.  The one big 
advantage of AE over GPON is distance.  You can economically run 4x as far on 
AE as GPON.  The best we can do on our GPON system is about 30km if we us a 
Class C+ laser.

  Using my test cage as an example.  This is a 4U cage with 7 slots.  If I 
use seven 8port cards, that gives me a maximum of 1792 customers in a 4U space. 
That is 1792 customers powered by one redundant power supply system.  Also, 
that is 56 fiber cables running from the cage to the patch panel.

  If I do AE on the 4U cage using 7 AE cards, I can get 140 customers in 
the same space.  About the same power requirements, but I'm using 140 fiber 
cables at this point.

  Now if I move the the DIY AE system maybe I can get 48 per 1U.  That will 
give me 192 AE customers in a 4U space.  But now I'm dealing with either 4 or 8 
power plugs.  Not to mention 192 individual fiber jumpers to keep track of.


  Now there once was an argument that with AE, one could guarantee 1G 
speeds at each port.  I don't think that argument holds much water anymore.  
With GPON you can sell 1G download speeds at 16 to 1 ratio.  10G GPON is 
available now where you can down to 3 to 1 ration.  I believe there is even a 
40G GPON so to be available.

  AE's advantage is distance and it being AE.  For example being it is AE 
you can interrupt fiber run with a wireless link if needed, can't do that with 
GPON.


  "If you have one strand going out there, you hang a switch and give all 
30 homes active E".  That is great, but now you have to have a cabinet that 
needs power and BBU.  You are sharing a 1G , unless you you pop for a 10G 
laser.  Under GPON, you just go out and pop in a 1x32 splitter and off you go. 
No cabinet or power needed.


  At the end of the day the individual has to look at the pro/cons of each 
system and figure out the right tool for the job.
  -- 
  Best regards,
  Markmailto:m...@mailmt.com

  Myakka Technologies, Inc.
  www.MyakkaTech.com

  --

  Wednesday, August 29, 2018, 2:52:22 PM, you wrote:


   So, other than the obvious strand count advantages, why would you 
use this vs active ethernet?

From: Jim Bouse [Brazos WiFi]
Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2018 12:04 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Ubiquiti Ufiber

It works fine.  We have it in 2 subdivisions.
It is brain dead simple to configure.
Since it “Just Works” there isn’t a lot to configure.  The ONU 
(cpe) can run in bridge or router mode.  I’m not sure what the routing/NAT 
speeds are capable of but it will do 1G in bridge mode without breaking a sweat.

Jim Bouse
Owner - Brazos WiFi
979-985-5912
http://www.brazoswifi.com

From: AF  On Behalf Of Jason McKemie
Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2018 12:17 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: [AFMUG] Ubiquiti Ufiber

Does anyone actually have this equipment in a production 
environment?  I have a test setup, just haven't heard much discussion about it 
so I thought I'd check with the group.


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Re: [AFMUG] Ubiquiti Ufiber

[Mark - Myakka Technologies]

Title: Re: [AFMUG] Ubiquiti Ufiber


Colin,

So far I've had more of our "Brand Name" splitter fail than the FS ones.  To be honest, it isn't a fair test.  We started the project with the "Brand Name" splitters and had some issues with water in the splice cases.  We have fixed those issues, so the FS splitters have not been exposed to that test.

-- 
Best regards,
 Mark                            mailto:m...@mailmt.com

Myakka Technologies, Inc.
www.MyakkaTech.com

--

Wednesday, August 29, 2018, 8:51:04 PM, you wrote:





We're going to put these in splice cases that would cost easily thousands of dollars to hydrovac-unfreeze and replace if a single splitter failed in -40 degree winter... now Fiberstore SFPs are great but tell me, in the above case would you put a $11 FS Splitter or a $60 huge-name-brand splitter?

On Wed, Aug 29, 2018, 3:40 PM Mark - Myakka Technologies  wrote:




Colin,

$60.00?

FS.com 1x16 PLC bare fiber $11.00

-- 
Best regards,
Mark                            mailto:m...@mailmt.com

Myakka Technologies, Inc.
www.MyakkaTech.com

--

Wednesday, August 29, 2018, 3:18:14 PM, you wrote:





ActiveEthernet: Property acquisition for the land, legal fees, concrete pad, electrical install, cabinet, UPS, heating/cooling, fiber switch is probably $10,000 - 15,000 including cost of time. When we're busy I'm not sure that it would be worth doing for only 30 homes.

PON: two 1x16 fiber splitters that fit in existing splice cases and require none of that support cost $60 each.

Shared bandwidth...16 customers sharing 2.5gbit fiber looks pretty good when we still have tower sites with 16 customers on a 10mbit 2.4Ghz FSK AP. And 10Gbit GPON seems to be coming soon... 




On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 2:04 PM  wrote:




If you have one strand going out there, you hang a switch and give all 30 homes active E.  

Each home needs a drop.  
So you have to connect the drop to either a splitter or an SFP.  

With AE you will have to power the switch but then  you have no shared bandwidth, it has market cache vs shared bandwidth old fashioned GPON etc...



From: Colin Stanners
Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2018 12:57 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Ubiquiti Ufiber

That's the main reason, and it branches into upgradeability. If a new 30-house subdivision appears in a field a few miles from your headend, and you have a spare 10 strands going out there, you only need to use 2-3 strands instead of running new 48-strand cable the whole way.

On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 1:53 PM  wrote:




So, other than the obvious strand count advantages, why would you use this vs active ethernet?

From: Jim Bouse [Brazos WiFi]
Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2018 12:04 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Ubiquiti Ufiber

It works fine.  We have it in 2 subdivisions.
It is brain dead simple to configure.
Since it “Just Works” there isn’t a lot to configure.  The ONU (cpe) can run in bridge or router mode.  I’m not sure what the routing/NAT speeds are capable of but it will do 1G in bridge mode without breaking a sweat.

Jim Bouse
Owner - Brazos WiFi
979-985-5912
http://www.brazoswifi.com

From: AF  On Behalf Of Jason McKemie
Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2018 12:17 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: [AFMUG] Ubiquiti Ufiber

Does anyone actually have this equipment in a production environment?  I have a test setup, just haven't heard much discussion about it so I thought I'd check with the group.
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Re: [AFMUG] Ubiquiti Ufiber

[chuck]

If I am closer than 20 feet to the asphalt of a state highway or interstate, I 
have to be at 5 feet.  That takes a D9.

From: Adam Moffett 
Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2018 8:36 AM
To: af@af.afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Ubiquiti Ufiber

Yeah, I want a link to the 3 foot deep plow if that's what we're talking about.



On 8/30/2018 10:33 AM, ch...@wbmfg.com wrote:

  What kind of plow?  Vibratory?

  From: Chris Fabien 
  Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2018 7:30 PM
  To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Ubiquiti Ufiber

  We also have to run 36" deep. We do have pretty favorable soil for plowing in 
most cases, only occasional rocks and the plow can usually pull them up. 
Usually sandy soil which plows great, sometimes clay which can be slow going 
but still plows OK. We never pre-rip.  

  We don't have goohers, do have ground hogs though. The one cut we've had so 
far was due to a ground hog trying to move in to a washed out area around a 
failed drain pipe that exposed our cable underground. 

  Most other existing utilities in our area are direct buried in rural areas. 
New fiber is put in conduit sometimes, depends on the utility. Many miles of 
telco and catv fiber direct buried though. 

  On Wed, Aug 29, 2018, 9:13 PM Chuck McCown  wrote:

How deep?

From: Chris Fabien 
Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2018 7:01 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Ubiquiti Ufiber

Chuck, we direct bury in rural areas. My cost for plowing is more like <50 
cents per foot with our in house crew, figuring 2000ft per day.  

On Wed, Aug 29, 2018, 8:51 PM Chuck McCown  wrote:

  Do you use direct burial?

  I do conduit.  
  30 cents per foot minimum.  Add at least $2/foot for plowing.  All in, 
maybe $3/foot and that is if I am doing my own plowing and splicing.  

  From: Chris Fabien 
  Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2018 6:42 PM
  To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Ubiquiti Ufiber

  We have done 3 cabinets with cheapo AE (planet switches) and two sites 
with cheapo GPON(ZTE). We will be continuing to deploy GPON going forward. 

  For us, the biggest advantage are ability to use small strand count cable 
which saves cost on material and also lets you serve a larger radius from a 
cabinet with the same size feeder cables (same # of strands in cabinet). And 
larger radius served means less power feeds to pay for and worry about backup 
power for. 

  We push the strand savings to the extreme using the optical tap split 
method, and often serve many miles of homes using 18 cents per foot 12F drop 
cable. 

  On Wed, Aug 29, 2018, 3:04 PM  wrote:

If you have one strand going out there, you hang a switch and give all 
30 homes active E.  

Each home needs a drop.  
So you have to connect the drop to either a splitter or an SFP.  

With AE you will have to power the switch but then  you have no shared 
bandwidth, it has market cache vs shared bandwidth old fashioned GPON etc...



From: Colin Stanners 
Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2018 12:57 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Ubiquiti Ufiber

That's the main reason, and it branches into upgradeability. If a new 
30-house subdivision appears in a field a few miles from your headend, and you 
have a spare 10 strands going out there, you only need to use 2-3 strands 
instead of running new 48-strand cable the whole way.


On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 1:53 PM  wrote:

  So, other than the obvious strand count advantages, why would you use 
this vs active ethernet?

  From: Jim Bouse [Brazos WiFi] 
  Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2018 12:04 PM
  To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Ubiquiti Ufiber

  It works fine.  We have it in 2 subdivisions.
  It is brain dead simple to configure.

  Since it “Just Works” there isn’t a lot to configure.  The ONU (cpe) 
can run in bridge or router mode.  I’m not sure what the routing/NAT speeds are 
capable of but it will do 1G in bridge mode without breaking a sweat.



  Jim Bouse
  Owner - Brazos WiFi
  979-985-5912
  http://www.brazoswifi.com



  From: AF  On Behalf Of Jason McKemie
  Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2018 12:17 PM
  To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
  Subject: [AFMUG] Ubiquiti Ufiber



  Does anyone actually have this equipment in a production environment? 
 I have a test setup, just haven't heard much discussion about it so I thought 
I'd check with the group.


--
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Re: [AFMUG] Ubiquiti Ufiber

[Mark - Myakka Technologies]

Title: Re: [AFMUG] Ubiquiti Ufiber


Chuck,

We do 1x32 so double these numbers.  Basing this on our 7 slot chassis using the expensive 10G uplink cards. 

Fully loaded 1x32 splits for 1792 customers $32/customer

loaded with 4 cards for 1024 customers $35/customer


1 card for 256 customers about $65/customers


Not going to argue that AE is cheaper.  I will yield to that claim.
-- 
Best regards,
 Mark                            mailto:m...@mailmt.com

Myakka Technologies, Inc.
www.MyakkaTech.com

--

Wednesday, August 29, 2018, 8:40:25 PM, you wrote:





So, what is the cost per customer for a 16:1 PON system for the electronics?
 
From: Mark - Myakka Technologies
Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2018 2:34 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Ubiquiti Ufiber
 
Chuck,

My 0.02

First of all we would have to determine what type of AE we are talking about.  Are we talking a managed system like calix, zhone, etc with AE cards in them using their respective OLT's? Or, are we talking about the DIY stacking 48 port switches on top of each other and throwing some mikrotiks out there?

Also, we need to talk about density?  How many customers are we talking?  AE is fine for smaller build outs, but doesn't scale well.  The one big advantage of AE over GPON is distance.  You can economically run 4x as far on AE as GPON.  The best we can do on our GPON system is about 30km if we us a Class C+ laser.

Using my test cage as an example.  This is a 4U cage with 7 slots.  If I use seven 8port cards, that gives me a maximum of 1792 customers in a 4U space. That is 1792 customers powered by one redundant power supply system.  Also, that is 56 fiber cables running from the cage to the patch panel.

If I do AE on the 4U cage using 7 AE cards, I can get 140 customers in the same space.  About the same power requirements, but I'm using 140 fiber cables at this point.

Now if I move the the DIY AE system maybe I can get 48 per 1U.  That will give me 192 AE customers in a 4U space.  But now I'm dealing with either 4 or 8 power plugs.  Not to mention 192 individual fiber jumpers to keep track of.


Now there once was an argument that with AE, one could guarantee 1G speeds at each port.  I don't think that argument holds much water anymore.  With GPON you can sell 1G download speeds at 16 to 1 ratio.  10G GPON is available now where you can down to 3 to 1 ration.  I believe there is even a 40G GPON so to be available.

AE's advantage is distance and it being AE.  For example being it is AE you can interrupt fiber run with a wireless link if needed, can't do that with GPON.


"If you have one strand going out there, you hang a switch and give all 30 homes active E".  That is great, but now you have to have a cabinet that needs power and BBU.  You are sharing a 1G , unless you you pop for a 10G laser.  Under GPON, you just go out and pop in a 1x32 splitter and off you go. No cabinet or power needed.


At the end of the day the individual has to look at the pro/cons of each system and figure out the right tool for the job.
-- 
Best regards,
Mark                            mailto:m...@mailmt.com

Myakka Technologies, Inc.
www.MyakkaTech.com

--

Wednesday, August 29, 2018, 2:52:22 PM, you wrote:





So, other than the obvious strand count advantages, why would you use this vs active ethernet?

From: Jim Bouse [Brazos WiFi]
Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2018 12:04 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Ubiquiti Ufiber

It works fine.  We have it in 2 subdivisions.
It is brain dead simple to configure.
Since it “Just Works” there isn’t a lot to configure.  The ONU (cpe) can run in bridge or router mode.  I’m not sure what the routing/NAT speeds are capable of but it will do 1G in bridge mode without breaking a sweat.

Jim Bouse
Owner - Brazos WiFi
979-985-5912
http://www.brazoswifi.com

From: AF  On Behalf Of Jason McKemie
Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2018 12:17 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: [AFMUG] Ubiquiti Ufiber

Does anyone actually have this equipment in a production environment?  I have a test setup, just haven't heard much discussion about it so I thought I'd check with the group.
-- 
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AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com


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Re: [AFMUG] Ubiquiti Ufiber

[Adam Moffett]

Yeah, I want a link to the 3 foot deep plow if that's what we're talking 
about.



On 8/30/2018 10:33 AM, ch...@wbmfg.com wrote:

What kind of plow?  Vibratory?
*From:* Chris Fabien
*Sent:* Wednesday, August 29, 2018 7:30 PM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Ubiquiti Ufiber
We also have to run 36" deep. We do have pretty favorable soil for 
plowing in most cases, only occasional rocks and the plow can usually 
pull them up. Usually sandy soil which plows great, sometimes clay 
which can be slow going but still plows OK. We never pre-rip.
We don't have goohers, do have ground hogs though. The one cut we've 
had so far was due to a ground hog trying to move in to a washed out 
area around a failed drain pipe that exposed our cable underground.
Most other existing utilities in our area are direct buried in rural 
areas. New fiber is put in conduit sometimes, depends on the utility. 
Many miles of telco and catv fiber direct buried though.

On Wed, Aug 29, 2018, 9:13 PM Chuck McCown  wrote:

How deep?
*From:* Chris Fabien
*Sent:* Wednesday, August 29, 2018 7:01 PM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Ubiquiti Ufiber
Chuck, we direct bury in rural areas. My cost for plowing is more
like <50 cents per foot with our in house crew, figuring 2000ft
per day.
On Wed, Aug 29, 2018, 8:51 PM Chuck McCown  wrote:

Do you use direct burial?
I do conduit.
30 cents per foot minimum. Add at least $2/foot for plowing. 
All in, maybe $3/foot and that is if I am doing my own plowing
and splicing.
*From:* Chris Fabien
*Sent:* Wednesday, August 29, 2018 6:42 PM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Ubiquiti Ufiber
We have done 3 cabinets with cheapo AE (planet switches) and
two sites with cheapo GPON(ZTE). We will be continuing to
deploy GPON going forward.
For us, the biggest advantage are ability to use small strand
count cable which saves cost on material and also lets you
serve a larger radius from a cabinet with the same size feeder
cables (same # of strands in cabinet). And larger radius
served means less power feeds to pay for and worry about
backup power for.
We push the strand savings to the extreme using the optical
tap split method, and often serve many miles of homes using 18
cents per foot 12F drop cable.
On Wed, Aug 29, 2018, 3:04 PM  wrote:

If you have one strand going out there, you hang a switch
and give all 30 homes active E.
Each home needs a drop.
So you have to connect the drop to either a splitter or an
SFP.
With AE you will have to power the switch but then  you
have no shared bandwidth, it has market cache vs shared
bandwidth old fashioned GPON etc...
*From:* Colin Stanners
*Sent:* Wednesday, August 29, 2018 12:57 PM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Ubiquiti Ufiber
That's the main reason, and it branches into
upgradeability. If a new 30-house subdivision appears in a
field a few miles from your headend, and you have a spare
10 strands going out there, you only need to use 2-3
strands instead of running new 48-strand cable the whole way.
On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 1:53 PM  wrote:

So, other than the obvious strand count advantages,
why would you use this vs active ethernet?
*From:* Jim Bouse [Brazos WiFi]
*Sent:* Wednesday, August 29, 2018 12:04 PM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Ubiquiti Ufiber

It works fine. We have it in 2 subdivisions.
It is brain dead simple to configure.

Since it “Just Works” there isn’t a lot to configure.
The ONU (cpe) can run in bridge or router mode. I’m
not sure what the routing/NAT speeds are capable of
but it will do 1G in bridge mode without breaking a sweat.

Jim Bouse
Owner - Brazos WiFi
979-985-5912
http://www.brazoswifi.com

*From:* AF  *On Behalf Of
*Jason McKemie
*Sent:* Wednesday, August 29, 2018 12:17 PM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
*Subject:* [AFMUG] Ubiquiti Ufiber

Does anyone actually have this equipment in a
production environment? I have a test setup, just
haven't heard much discussion about it so I thought
I'd check with the group.

Re: [AFMUG] Ubiquiti Ufiber

[chuck]

What kind of plow?  Vibratory?

From: Chris Fabien 
Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2018 7:30 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Ubiquiti Ufiber

We also have to run 36" deep. We do have pretty favorable soil for plowing in 
most cases, only occasional rocks and the plow can usually pull them up. 
Usually sandy soil which plows great, sometimes clay which can be slow going 
but still plows OK. We never pre-rip.  

We don't have goohers, do have ground hogs though. The one cut we've had so far 
was due to a ground hog trying to move in to a washed out area around a failed 
drain pipe that exposed our cable underground. 

Most other existing utilities in our area are direct buried in rural areas. New 
fiber is put in conduit sometimes, depends on the utility. Many miles of telco 
and catv fiber direct buried though. 

On Wed, Aug 29, 2018, 9:13 PM Chuck McCown  wrote:

  How deep?

  From: Chris Fabien 
  Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2018 7:01 PM
  To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Ubiquiti Ufiber

  Chuck, we direct bury in rural areas. My cost for plowing is more like <50 
cents per foot with our in house crew, figuring 2000ft per day.  

  On Wed, Aug 29, 2018, 8:51 PM Chuck McCown  wrote:

Do you use direct burial?

I do conduit.  
30 cents per foot minimum.  Add at least $2/foot for plowing.  All in, 
maybe $3/foot and that is if I am doing my own plowing and splicing.  

From: Chris Fabien 
Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2018 6:42 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Ubiquiti Ufiber

We have done 3 cabinets with cheapo AE (planet switches) and two sites with 
cheapo GPON(ZTE). We will be continuing to deploy GPON going forward. 

For us, the biggest advantage are ability to use small strand count cable 
which saves cost on material and also lets you serve a larger radius from a 
cabinet with the same size feeder cables (same # of strands in cabinet). And 
larger radius served means less power feeds to pay for and worry about backup 
power for. 

We push the strand savings to the extreme using the optical tap split 
method, and often serve many miles of homes using 18 cents per foot 12F drop 
cable. 

On Wed, Aug 29, 2018, 3:04 PM  wrote:

  If you have one strand going out there, you hang a switch and give all 30 
homes active E.  

  Each home needs a drop.  
  So you have to connect the drop to either a splitter or an SFP.  

  With AE you will have to power the switch but then  you have no shared 
bandwidth, it has market cache vs shared bandwidth old fashioned GPON etc...



  From: Colin Stanners 
  Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2018 12:57 PM
  To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Ubiquiti Ufiber

  That's the main reason, and it branches into upgradeability. If a new 
30-house subdivision appears in a field a few miles from your headend, and you 
have a spare 10 strands going out there, you only need to use 2-3 strands 
instead of running new 48-strand cable the whole way.


  On Wed, Aug 29, 2018 at 1:53 PM  wrote:

So, other than the obvious strand count advantages, why would you use 
this vs active ethernet?

From: Jim Bouse [Brazos WiFi] 
Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2018 12:04 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Ubiquiti Ufiber

It works fine.  We have it in 2 subdivisions.
It is brain dead simple to configure.

Since it “Just Works” there isn’t a lot to configure.  The ONU (cpe) 
can run in bridge or router mode.  I’m not sure what the routing/NAT speeds are 
capable of but it will do 1G in bridge mode without breaking a sweat.



Jim Bouse
Owner - Brazos WiFi
979-985-5912
http://www.brazoswifi.com



From: AF  On Behalf Of Jason McKemie
Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2018 12:17 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: [AFMUG] Ubiquiti Ufiber



Does anyone actually have this equipment in a production environment?  
I have a test setup, just haven't heard much discussion about it so I thought 
I'd check with the group.



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Re: [AFMUG] OT another totally off subject question

[chuck]

Scale of dragon, tooth of wolf,
Witches' mummy, maw and gulf
Of the ravined salt-sea shark,
25Root of hemlock digged i' th' dark,

From: Brian Webster 
Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2018 9:34 PM
To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT another totally off subject question

I hear hemlock is also good and long lasting for trailer decking. Not sure how 
available that is for you out there. Plentiful here in NY.

 

Thank You,

Brian Webster

 

From: AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com] On Behalf Of Chris Fabien
Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2018 9:35 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT another totally off subject question

 

We bought direct from a local sawmill when we needed to redo a trailer. They 
commonly mill true 2" thick oak or ash for trailer decking. I think it was 
around $700 to do a 25x8.5 trailer.  Appropriate thickness will be determined 
by the equipment and the crossmember spacing on the trailer. 

 

On Wed, Aug 29, 2018, 8:58 PM Chuck McCown  wrote:

  Need to redeck the wood on my lowboy trailer.  

  My HDD almost fell through it last night.  

   

  Was thinking of using pressure treated soft wood.  

   

  Love to find some oak.  But I see that there is a wood called apitong that 
many swear by.  

   

  Soft wood might be too weak.  Not sure what was there originally, perhaps 
oak.  

  Have not found 3” oak planks anywhere.  I have found 3” apitong.  

   

  Any comments would be appreciated.  

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Re: [AFMUG] OT another totally off subject question

[chuck]

Yeah, I think I am going to look for oak and then treat it.  That other stuff 
is terribly expensive.  

From: Chris Fabien 
Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2018 7:35 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT another totally off subject question

We bought direct from a local sawmill when we needed to redo a trailer. They 
commonly mill true 2" thick oak or ash for trailer decking. I think it was 
around $700 to do a 25x8.5 trailer.  Appropriate thickness will be determined 
by the equipment and the crossmember spacing on the trailer. 

On Wed, Aug 29, 2018, 8:58 PM Chuck McCown  wrote:

  Need to redeck the wood on my lowboy trailer.  
  My HDD almost fell through it last night.  

  Was thinking of using pressure treated soft wood.  

  Love to find some oak.  But I see that there is a wood called apitong that 
many swear by.  

  Soft wood might be too weak.  Not sure what was there originally, perhaps 
oak.  
  Have not found 3” oak planks anywhere.  I have found 3” apitong.  

  Any comments would be appreciated.  
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