Re: [AFMUG] Enclosures

[Adam Moffett]

Huh.the minifort I have didn't need a key.  Just a 1/4 turn handle 
with a hole for a padlock.


On 11/13/2018 4:15 PM, Ken Hohhof wrote:


My only complaint about them is the stupid special key to open the 
door.  I wonder if they have another option.  DDB cabinets just have a 
regular handle.


*From:* AF  *On Behalf Of *Adair Winter
*Sent:* Tuesday, November 13, 2018 2:58 PM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Enclosures

www.amprod.us  minifort.

On Tue, Nov 13, 2018 at 2:56 PM Ben Royer > wrote:


Hey WispWorld,

What enclosures are you using at tower sites?  The ones we used
shot way up in price, so shopping around.

Thank you,
Ben Royer, Operations Manager
Royell Communications, Inc.
217-965-3699 www.royell.net 

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C: 806.231.7180
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Re: [AFMUG] Scary Product...

[Chuck McCown]

If you are a smart bad actor,  you will be using bands that are not commonly 
used.  

From: Forrest Christian (List Account) 
Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2018 5:05 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Scary Product...

I think there are some probably at least somewhat real concerns about either 
bad actors using a Drone for surveillance, or alternatively there are cases 
where you need the airspace clear.  This should handle both issues, but I'm not 
sure if either is worth wiping  the ism bands for a not small radius. 

They also supposedly have drone detection gear.

On Wed, Nov 14, 2018, 12:55 AM Matt Hoppes   wrote:


Yeah, 150 watts at 2.4 GHz would be like being near a 150 watt incandescent 
light bulb.  
You would certainly feel it.  Might even give you permanent cornea damage.  

From: Ken Hohhof 
Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2018 4:16 PM
To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Scary Product...

A “backpack” jammer with 120 watts output power?  I hope they mean backpack 
size, not that someone would literally wear that on their back while it was 
transmitting.  Oooh, suddenly I feel all warm and tingly!



From: AF  On Behalf Of Forrest Christian (List 
Account)
Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2018 5:11 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: [AFMUG] Scary Product...



I'm at a trade show this week (attending, not exhibiting), and one of the 
exhibitors is selling this:



http://www.aaronia.com/Datasheets/Documents/Portable-UAV-Jammer.pdf



Anyone want to venture a guess how long it will be before one of these (or 
some similar product) shows up in the middle of someone's network?



-- 

  Forrest Christian CEO, PacketFlux Technologies, Inc.

  Tel: 406-449-3345 | Address: 3577 Countryside Road, Helena, MT 59602

  forre...@imach.com | http://www.packetflux.com


 





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Re: [AFMUG] Scary Product...

[Forrest Christian (List Account)]

I think there are some probably at least somewhat real concerns about
either bad actors using a Drone for surveillance, or alternatively there
are cases where you need the airspace clear.  This should handle both
issues, but I'm not sure if either is worth wiping  the ism bands for a not
small radius.

They also supposedly have drone detection gear.

On Wed, Nov 14, 2018, 12:55 AM Matt Hoppes <
mattli...@rivervalleyinternet.net wrote:

> The webpage isn’t loading, but I’m not sure what this is supposed to
> accomplish. Any UAV worth it’s weight in salt will return home if it loses
> connection.
>
> On Nov 13, 2018, at 18:31,   wrote:
>
> Yeah, 150 watts at 2.4 GHz would be like being near a 150 watt
> incandescent light bulb.
> You would certainly feel it.  Might even give you permanent cornea
> damage.
>
> *From:* Ken Hohhof
> *Sent:* Tuesday, November 13, 2018 4:16 PM
> *To:* 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group'
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Scary Product...
>
>
> A “backpack” jammer with 120 watts output power?  I hope they mean
> backpack size, not that someone would literally wear that on their back
> while it was transmitting.  Oooh, suddenly I feel all warm and tingly!
>
>
>
> *From:* AF  *On Behalf Of *Forrest Christian
> (List Account)
> *Sent:* Tuesday, November 13, 2018 5:11 PM
> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
> *Subject:* [AFMUG] Scary Product...
>
>
>
> I'm at a trade show this week (attending, not exhibiting), and one of the
> exhibitors is selling this:
>
>
>
> http://www.aaronia.com/Datasheets/Documents/Portable-UAV-Jammer.pdf
>
>
>
> Anyone want to venture a guess how long it will be before one of these (or
> some similar product) shows up in the middle of someone's network?
>
>
>
> --
>
> *Forrest Christian* *CEO, PacketFlux Technologies, Inc.*
>
> Tel: 406-449-3345 | Address: 3577 Countryside Road, Helena, MT 59602
>
> forre...@imach.com | http://www.packetflux.com
>
>   
>   
>
> --
> --
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>
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Re: [AFMUG] Scary Product...

[Robert Andrews]

I wonder if it has FCC approval  ( no one could possibly think I am 
being serious )


On 11/13/2018 03:16 PM, Ken Hohhof wrote:
A “backpack” jammer with 120 watts output power?  I hope they mean 
backpack size, not that someone would literally wear that on their back 
while it was transmitting.  Oooh, suddenly I feel all warm and tingly!


*From:* AF  *On Behalf Of *Forrest Christian 
(List Account)

*Sent:* Tuesday, November 13, 2018 5:11 PM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
*Subject:* [AFMUG] Scary Product...

I'm at a trade show this week (attending, not exhibiting), and one of 
the exhibitors is selling this:


http://www.aaronia.com/Datasheets/Documents/Portable-UAV-Jammer.pdf

Anyone want to venture a guess how long it will be before one of these 
(or some similar product) shows up in the middle of someone's network?


--

*Forrest Christian*/CEO, PacketFlux Technologies, Inc./

Tel: 406-449-3345 | Address: 3577 Countryside Road, Helena, MT 59602

forre...@imach.com  | 
http://www.packetflux.com 


 
 






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Re: [AFMUG] Scary Product...

[Forrest Christian (List Account)]

They had the sign advertising it as law enforcement or military only.

I haven't bumped into their booth yet.  If I do I'll find out more
information about their feelings on collateral damage.

On Wed, Nov 14, 2018, 12:27 AM Tim Hardy  Legal?  Even Part 15 is supposed to not interfere and that’s all that this
> would do.  Wouldn’t want to be selling this to non-law enforcement entities
> in the US
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On Nov 13, 2018, at 6:16 PM, Ken Hohhof  wrote:
>
> A “backpack” jammer with 120 watts output power?  I hope they mean
> backpack size, not that someone would literally wear that on their back
> while it was transmitting.  Oooh, suddenly I feel all warm and tingly!
>
>
>
> *From:* AF  *On Behalf Of *Forrest Christian
> (List Account)
> *Sent:* Tuesday, November 13, 2018 5:11 PM
> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
> *Subject:* [AFMUG] Scary Product...
>
>
>
> I'm at a trade show this week (attending, not exhibiting), and one of the
> exhibitors is selling this:
>
>
>
> http://www.aaronia.com/Datasheets/Documents/Portable-UAV-Jammer.pdf
>
>
>
> Anyone want to venture a guess how long it will be before one of these (or
> some similar product) shows up in the middle of someone's network?
>
>
>
> --
>
> *Forrest Christian* *CEO, PacketFlux Technologies, Inc.*
>
> Tel: 406-449-3345 | Address: 3577 Countryside Road, Helena, MT 59602
>
> forre...@imach.com | http://www.packetflux.com
>
>   
>   
>
> --
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>
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>
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Re: [AFMUG] Scary Product...

[Matt Hoppes]

The webpage isn’t loading, but I’m not sure what this is supposed to 
accomplish. Any UAV worth it’s weight in salt will return home if it loses 
connection.

> On Nov 13, 2018, at 18:31,   wrote:
> 
> Yeah, 150 watts at 2.4 GHz would be like being near a 150 watt incandescent 
> light bulb. 
> You would certainly feel it.  Might even give you permanent cornea damage. 
>  
> From: Ken Hohhof
> Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2018 4:16 PM
> To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group'
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Scary Product...
>  
> A “backpack” jammer with 120 watts output power?  I hope they mean backpack 
> size, not that someone would literally wear that on their back while it was 
> transmitting.  Oooh, suddenly I feel all warm and tingly!
>  
> From: AF  On Behalf Of Forrest Christian (List 
> Account)
> Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2018 5:11 PM
> To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
> Subject: [AFMUG] Scary Product...
>  
> I'm at a trade show this week (attending, not exhibiting), and one of the 
> exhibitors is selling this:
>  
> http://www.aaronia.com/Datasheets/Documents/Portable-UAV-Jammer.pdf
>  
> Anyone want to venture a guess how long it will be before one of these (or 
> some similar product) shows up in the middle of someone's network?
>  
> --
> Forrest Christian CEO, PacketFlux Technologies, Inc.
> Tel: 406-449-3345 | Address: 3577 Countryside Road, Helena, MT 59602
> forre...@imach.com | http://www.packetflux.com
>   
> 
> -- 
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Re: [AFMUG] Scary Product...

[chuck]

Yeah, 150 watts at 2.4 GHz would be like being near a 150 watt incandescent 
light bulb.  
You would certainly feel it.  Might even give you permanent cornea damage.  

From: Ken Hohhof 
Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2018 4:16 PM
To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Scary Product...

A “backpack” jammer with 120 watts output power?  I hope they mean backpack 
size, not that someone would literally wear that on their back while it was 
transmitting.  Oooh, suddenly I feel all warm and tingly!

 

From: AF  On Behalf Of Forrest Christian (List Account)
Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2018 5:11 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: [AFMUG] Scary Product...

 

I'm at a trade show this week (attending, not exhibiting), and one of the 
exhibitors is selling this:

 

http://www.aaronia.com/Datasheets/Documents/Portable-UAV-Jammer.pdf

 

Anyone want to venture a guess how long it will be before one of these (or some 
similar product) shows up in the middle of someone's network?

 

-- 

  Forrest Christian CEO, PacketFlux Technologies, Inc.

  Tel: 406-449-3345 | Address: 3577 Countryside Road, Helena, MT 59602

  forre...@imach.com | http://www.packetflux.com


 






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Re: [AFMUG] Scary Product...

[chuck]

Sounds like time for a set of DSSS frequency hopping radios for drones.  

From: Forrest Christian (List Account) 
Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2018 4:10 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: [AFMUG] Scary Product...

I'm at a trade show this week (attending, not exhibiting), and one of the 
exhibitors is selling this:


http://www.aaronia.com/Datasheets/Documents/Portable-UAV-Jammer.pdf


Anyone want to venture a guess how long it will be before one of these (or some 
similar product) shows up in the middle of someone's network?

-- 

  Forrest Christian CEO, PacketFlux Technologies, Inc.

  Tel: 406-449-3345 | Address: 3577 Countryside Road, Helena, MT 59602
  forre...@imach.com | http://www.packetflux.com

 






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Re: [AFMUG] Scary Product...

[Tim Hardy]

Legal?  Even Part 15 is supposed to not interfere and that’s all that this 
would do.  Wouldn’t want to be selling this to non-law enforcement entities in 
the US

Sent from my iPad

> On Nov 13, 2018, at 6:16 PM, Ken Hohhof  wrote:
> 
> A “backpack” jammer with 120 watts output power?  I hope they mean backpack 
> size, not that someone would literally wear that on their back while it was 
> transmitting.  Oooh, suddenly I feel all warm and tingly!
>  
> From: AF  On Behalf Of Forrest Christian (List 
> Account)
> Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2018 5:11 PM
> To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
> Subject: [AFMUG] Scary Product...
>  
> I'm at a trade show this week (attending, not exhibiting), and one of the 
> exhibitors is selling this:
>  
> http://www.aaronia.com/Datasheets/Documents/Portable-UAV-Jammer.pdf
>  
> Anyone want to venture a guess how long it will be before one of these (or 
> some similar product) shows up in the middle of someone's network?
>  
> --
> Forrest Christian CEO, PacketFlux Technologies, Inc.
> Tel: 406-449-3345 | Address: 3577 Countryside Road, Helena, MT 59602
> forre...@imach.com | http://www.packetflux.com
>   
> 
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Re: [AFMUG] Scary Product...

[Ken Hohhof]

A “backpack” jammer with 120 watts output power?  I hope they mean backpack 
size, not that someone would literally wear that on their back while it was 
transmitting.  Oooh, suddenly I feel all warm and tingly!

 

From: AF  On Behalf Of Forrest Christian (List Account)
Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2018 5:11 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: [AFMUG] Scary Product...

 

I'm at a trade show this week (attending, not exhibiting), and one of the 
exhibitors is selling this:

 

http://www.aaronia.com/Datasheets/Documents/Portable-UAV-Jammer.pdf

 

Anyone want to venture a guess how long it will be before one of these (or some 
similar product) shows up in the middle of someone's network?

 

-- 


Forrest Christian CEO, PacketFlux Technologies, Inc.

Tel: 406-449-3345 | Address: 3577 Countryside Road, Helena, MT 59602

  forre...@imach.com |   
http://www.packetflux.com

       
 

     

   

 

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Re: [AFMUG] AirFiber11 and CPR90G Input

[Tim Hardy]

VHLP - ValuLine

Sent from my iPad

> On Nov 13, 2018, at 6:08 PM,   wrote:
> 
> I just made adapters for the VLP (I think).  Terribly slow in getting them 
> out.
> (Also working Exalt).
> 
> -Original Message- From: Matt
> Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2018 3:03 PM
> To: af@af.afmug.com
> Subject: [AFMUG] AirFiber11 and CPR90G Input
> 
> Has anyone connected and AirFiber11 to an Andrew dish with a CPR90G
> connection and used both polarities?
> 
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[AFMUG] Scary Product...

[Forrest Christian (List Account)]

I'm at a trade show this week (attending, not exhibiting), and one of the
exhibitors is selling this:

http://www.aaronia.com/Datasheets/Documents/Portable-UAV-Jammer.pdf

Anyone want to venture a guess how long it will be before one of these (or
some similar product) shows up in the middle of someone's network?

-- 
*Forrest Christian* *CEO**, PacketFlux Technologies, Inc.*
Tel: 406-449-3345 | Address: 3577 Countryside Road, Helena, MT 59602
forre...@imach.com | http://www.packetflux.com
  

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Re: [AFMUG] AirFiber11 and CPR90G Input

[chuck]

I just made adapters for the VLP (I think).  Terribly slow in getting them 
out.

(Also working Exalt).

-Original Message- 
From: Matt

Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2018 3:03 PM
To: af@af.afmug.com
Subject: [AFMUG] AirFiber11 and CPR90G Input

Has anyone connected and AirFiber11 to an Andrew dish with a CPR90G
connection and used both polarities?

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Re: [AFMUG] Ubiquiti phone support? (big problem with all GPON OLTs)

[Jason McKemie]

Did you figure out what was going on here?

On Mon, Nov 12, 2018 at 3:34 PM Colin Stanners  wrote:

> Is there a phone number for Ubiquiti support? Can't find on website. We're
> about to go live on a GPON fiber deployment where we were looking to use
> their OLTs, but every OLT that we have tried (3 brand new units) has the
> same problem in production that wasn't seen in testing - the data port
> disconnects after 10minutes and 15seconds, requires OLT reboot. This is on
> the newest firmware.
>
> Their e-mail tech support asks a question and then takes hours to reply -
> it's been days without much progress. I am not asking for super-fast
> support, but we'd like someone who can look at our case more than twice a
> day.
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[AFMUG] AirFiber11 and CPR90G Input

[Matt]

Has anyone connected and AirFiber11 to an Andrew dish with a CPR90G
connection and used both polarities?

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Re: [AFMUG] Enclosures

[Lewis Bergman]

I have been using TSC Supply I think it is. Simon over there has been
really good. If I remember, they deal in mostly undeployed used cabinets.

On Tue, Nov 13, 2018 at 3:18 PM Jesse DuPont 
wrote:

> I like this one for most of our sites.
>
>
> https://tyconsystems.com/index.php/products/tycon-solar/all/item/160-enc-st-23x14x12
>
> For the bigger ones, we use AmProd Miniforts.
>
> *Jesse DuPont*
>
> Network Architect
> email: jesse.dup...@celeritycorp.net
> Celerity Networks LLC
>
> Celerity Broadband LLC
> Like us! facebook.com/celeritynetworksllc
>
> Like us! facebook.com/celeritybroadband
>
> On 11/13/18 1:55 PM, Ben Royer wrote:
>
> Hey WispWorld,
>
> What enclosures are you using at tower sites?  The ones we used shot way
> up in price, so shopping around.
>
> Thank you,
> Ben Royer, Operations Manager
> Royell Communications, Inc.
> 217-965-3699 <(217)%20965-3699> www.royell.net
>
>
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Re: [AFMUG] Enclosures

[Jesse DuPont]

  
  
I like this one for most of our sites.

https://tyconsystems.com/index.php/products/tycon-solar/all/item/160-enc-st-23x14x12

For the bigger ones, we use AmProd Miniforts.


  
  
  
  
  
  
  Jesse DuPont
  Network Architect
  email: jesse.dup...@celeritycorp.net
  Celerity Networks LLC
  Celerity Broadband LLC
Like us!
  facebook.com/celeritynetworksllc
  
  Like us!
  facebook.com/celeritybroadband
  


On 11/13/18 1:55 PM, Ben Royer wrote:


  
  

  Hey WispWorld,
   
  What enclosures are you using at tower sites?  The ones
we used shot way up in price, so shopping around.
   
  Thank you,
Ben Royer, Operations Manager
Royell Communications, Inc.
217-965-3699 www.royell.net

  
  
  


  

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Re: [AFMUG] Enclosures

[Ken Hohhof]

My only complaint about them is the stupid special key to open the door.  I 
wonder if they have another option.  DDB cabinets just have a regular handle.

 

From: AF  On Behalf Of Adair Winter
Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2018 2:58 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Enclosures

 

www.amprod.us   minifort.

 

 

On Tue, Nov 13, 2018 at 2:56 PM Ben Royer mailto:operati...@royell.net> > wrote:

Hey WispWorld,

 

What enclosures are you using at tower sites?  The ones we used shot way up in 
price, so shopping around.

 

Thank you,
Ben Royer, Operations Manager
Royell Communications, Inc.
217-965-3699 www.royell.net  

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VP, Network Operations / Co-Owner
Amarillo Wireless | 806.316.5071
C: 806.231.7180
  http://www.amarillowireless.net 
 


 

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Re: [AFMUG] Chuck, help please.

[Josh Luthman]

Ya that's not universal at all.  We use, exclusively, the gige-APC-HV.
Works with all Ubnt stuff, ePMP, etc.  Only issue is sometimes it has a
problem with AF5x (though I think a perfect cable has problems with AF5x
too).


Josh Luthman
Office: 937-552-2340
Direct: 937-552-2343
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373

On Tue, Nov 13, 2018 at 10:39 AM, Jerry Head 
wrote:

> Okay thank you.
>
>
> On 11/13/2018 9:32 AM, Chuck McCown wrote:
>
>> Well, that is certainly not universal.  That is for Canopy/UBNT 100 Mbps
>> POE where the 4 power wires do not carry data.  It has the test port so you
>> can connect to the SM without powering it down.
>>
>> In any event, we do have that on our web site.  In both outdoor and rack
>> mount versions.
>> https://www.mccowntech.com/product/outdoor-100-mbps-ethernet-protector/
>>
>> -Original Message- From: Jerry Head
>> Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2018 8:26 AM
>> To: af@af.afmug.com
>> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Chuck, help please.
>>
>> Sorry, 444-SMT
>>
>> On 11/13/2018 9:19 AM, Chuck McCown wrote:
>>
>>> Could be many of my products.  Outdoor mount, rack mount.  GigE or CAT6.
>>> Not sure what DR is selling.
>>>
>>> -Original Message- From: Jerry Head
>>> Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2018 7:58 AM
>>> To: af@af.afmug.com
>>> Subject: [AFMUG] Chuck, help please.
>>>
>>> "Universal Surge Suppressor"
>>> I am shopping DR and they list this a one of your products but I can't
>>> seem to locate it on your website.
>>> Can you tell me which one of your products it corresponds to please?
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
> --
> AF mailing list
> AF@af.afmug.com
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>
-- 
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

Re: [AFMUG] Enclosures

[David Coudron]

We like Polycase.   They only have smaller ones, but we have been able to make 
them work.   Very reasonably priced.

www.polycase.com

Thanks,

David Coudron
From: AF  On Behalf Of Ben Royer
Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2018 2:55 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: [AFMUG] Enclosures

Hey WispWorld,

What enclosures are you using at tower sites?  The ones we used shot way up in 
price, so shopping around.

Thank you,
Ben Royer, Operations Manager
Royell Communications, Inc.
217-965-3699 www.royell.net
-- 
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

Re: [AFMUG] Enclosures

[Adair Winter]

www.amprod.us minifort.


On Tue, Nov 13, 2018 at 2:56 PM Ben Royer  wrote:

> Hey WispWorld,
>
> What enclosures are you using at tower sites?  The ones we used shot way
> up in price, so shopping around.
>
> Thank you,
> Ben Royer, Operations Manager
> Royell Communications, Inc.
> 217-965-3699 www.royell.net
> --
> AF mailing list
> AF@af.afmug.com
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>


-- 

Adair Winter
VP, Network Operations / Co-Owner
Amarillo Wireless | 806.316.5071
C: 806.231.7180
http://www.amarillowireless.net

-- 
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

Re: [AFMUG] bandwidth management appliance opinions

[Ken Hohhof]

In my experience DirecTV On Demand is a fixed 5 Mbps, if it doesn’t find that 
available, it tells you that your Internet is too slow to watch now, and you 
have to download to your DVR and watch later (which nobody wants to do).

 

Hulu says you need 8 Mbps for Hulu Live.  Most live TV is probably going to be 
single stream rate and not as efficiently compressed as your regular 
Netflix/Hulu/Youtube stuff because the video is being compressed on-the-fly.  I 
know we get a lot of people who can watch multiple Netflix streams saying they 
can’t watch live sports without it stopping and starting.  As people cancel 
their satellite TV and start streaming live TV, we’ve been getting complaints 
that suddenly their Internet is too slow and video is starting and stopping.  
Various services like Sling, networks like CBS, and I think also some OTT 
streaming service from AT  We also get the occasional customer watching some 
Christian TV station on the Internet and having problems.

 

So I don’t think all video streams are the same.

 

I’d like to tell people if Netflix works and ESPN doesn’t, then it’s an ESPN 
problem, but you know how some people are about their sports.

 

 

From: AF  On Behalf Of Darin Steffl
Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2018 2:01 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] bandwidth management appliance opinions

 

For fail over, there is no reason why you should worry. You can easily use OSPF 
or other redundancy methods to route around the preseem in the event of a 
failure. I don't mean to offend but you may want to brush up on that if you 
don't know about it already.

 

In response to the magic about preseem, it's not magic at all. It uses fq_codel 
to shape traffic like they reference on their website and it does Not target 
certain streams or know that something needs more bandwidth. Almost all video 
had variable bitrate now so if you have 10 meg plan and you're running 3 video 
streams, it should split them about equal to 3.33 mbps for each stream. If 
Netflix drops down to 2.5 mbps then there's a little extra left over for the 
other streams. What doesn't change is that the small flows that don't use much 
throughout will always go to the front of the queue to make sure they get 
priority over the big flows. 

 

Preseem classifies it as "mice flows" and "elephant flows" 

 

I don't know of any video services that don't have variable bitrate. All the 
ones I use have that: Netflix, YouTube, Hulu, etc. 

 

On Tue, Nov 13, 2018, 2:52 PM Richard Strittmatter mailto:rich...@mesh.net>  wrote:

We just have failover OSPF connections between the routers.

Core <-> preseem <-> access network

+

Core <-> access network  ( at a higher OSPF cost )

 

Simple. If the preseem fails, it routes around it. We are currently building 
our second  preseem box to split the load ( because they only have 10GB 
interfaces )

 

Richard Strittmatter

 

From: AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com  ] On 
Behalf Of Josh Baird
Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2018 1:46 PM
To: AFMUG mailto:af@af.afmug.com> >
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] bandwidth management appliance opinions

 

A concern that I have with Preseam (or any other vendor like this) is that it 
requires me to put a single box (usually a Dell server) right in-line with all 
of my customer traffic.  All of a sudden, my entire customer network is reliant 
on a single Dell server.  I know that Procera and maybe some other vendors 
offered bypass modules for this type of thing, but what are Preseam customers 
doing?  Is this not a concern for you?

 

On Tue, Nov 13, 2018 at 2:40 PM Ken Hohhof mailto:af...@kwisp.com> > wrote:

That’s what bothers me about Preseem, it sounds like it works by magic.  Every 
time in the past I’ve bought into magical solutions, I’ve been burned.

 

I don’t know how you decide between a Windows 10 Update, an Xbox game download, 
a Netflix stream that with variable video quality, and a live sports video 
stream that has a single stream rate and will buffer or skip if it doesn’t get 
10 Mbps … unless you identify the application via either DPI or something 
equivalent.

 

Apparently Preseem allocates the bandwidth based on how the flow acts?  I still 
don’t see how it can know that the software download can be deferred or slowed 
until off-peak, the Netflix stream can be squeezed to 2.5 Mbps, but the live 
sports stream needs a certain bitrate or it just won’t work.

 

Of course there’s also a bigger problem.  If you talk to the kid trying to 
download the latest 50 gigabyte game and play it, that should get 100% of the 
bandwidth.  But we’re never going to solve that one, unless we give customers a 
portal where they can tweak the knobs themselves.

 

 

From: AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com> > On Behalf 
Of Darin Steffl 

Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2018 1:21 PM
To: 

Re: [AFMUG] bandwidth management appliance opinions

[Richard Strittmatter]

They don’t.

It’s merely a bridge. On either side of it is usually a router…

 

Richard

 

From: AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com] On Behalf Of Josh Baird
Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2018 2:35 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] bandwidth management appliance opinions

 

Ah - didn’t realize they supported routing.  Thanks!

Sent from my iPhone


On Nov 13, 2018, at 2:51 PM, Richard Strittmatter mailto:rich...@mesh.net> > wrote:

We just have failover OSPF connections between the routers.

Core <-> preseem <-> access network

+

Core <-> access network  ( at a higher OSPF cost )

 

Simple. If the preseem fails, it routes around it. We are currently building 
our second  preseem box to split the load ( because they only have 10GB 
interfaces )

 

Richard Strittmatter

 

From: AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com] On Behalf Of Josh Baird
Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2018 1:46 PM
To: AFMUG mailto:af@af.afmug.com> >
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] bandwidth management appliance opinions

 

A concern that I have with Preseam (or any other vendor like this) is that it 
requires me to put a single box (usually a Dell server) right in-line with all 
of my customer traffic.  All of a sudden, my entire customer network is reliant 
on a single Dell server.  I know that Procera and maybe some other vendors 
offered bypass modules for this type of thing, but what are Preseam customers 
doing?  Is this not a concern for you?

 

On Tue, Nov 13, 2018 at 2:40 PM Ken Hohhof mailto:af...@kwisp.com> > wrote:

That’s what bothers me about Preseem, it sounds like it works by magic.  Every 
time in the past I’ve bought into magical solutions, I’ve been burned.

 

I don’t know how you decide between a Windows 10 Update, an Xbox game download, 
a Netflix stream that with variable video quality, and a live sports video 
stream that has a single stream rate and will buffer or skip if it doesn’t get 
10 Mbps … unless you identify the application via either DPI or something 
equivalent.

 

Apparently Preseem allocates the bandwidth based on how the flow acts?  I still 
don’t see how it can know that the software download can be deferred or slowed 
until off-peak, the Netflix stream can be squeezed to 2.5 Mbps, but the live 
sports stream needs a certain bitrate or it just won’t work.

 

Of course there’s also a bigger problem.  If you talk to the kid trying to 
download the latest 50 gigabyte game and play it, that should get 100% of the 
bandwidth.  But we’re never going to solve that one, unless we give customers a 
portal where they can tweak the knobs themselves.

 

 

From: AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com> > On Behalf 
Of Darin Steffl 

Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2018 1:21 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group mailto:af@af.afmug.com> >
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] bandwidth management appliance opinions

 

I'll say we've used procera, saisei, in the past and they're DPI. They're cool 
and you can do lots of things with them. They also require hands-on attention 
and tweaking. They give you NO usable QoE data so you still can't tell where 
you have trouble in your network or individual customers like you can with 
preseem. 

 

We now use preseem for about 11 months and we love it! It's not DPI so don't 
even think that you can shape individual types of traffic like video, updates, 
etc because thats not what it is. 

 

It requires no tweaking or hands-on configuration at all and preseem guys do 
all the work for you. It provides the best QoE data of any service out there 
and really helps tell you what tower, sector, or customer is having a bad 
experience so you can fix it. On top of this valuable data, it does your rate 
plan shaping and it does it damn well to boot. Customers can now max out their 
rate plans without a spike in latency or complaints or laggy gaming or slow web 
browsing. It allows small traffic flows like voip, dns, web browsing, gaming to 
"jump the queue" so to speak so large flows like video and updates don't slow 
everything down. 

 

It's very handy. I've rate shaped my home down to 3 mbps and still was able to 
run 2 Netflix streams, 1 YouTube, plus a voip call and web browse without any 
lag or buffering whatsoever. 

 

I highly recommend anyone do a trial with preseem and you'll be happy campers. 

 

On Tue, Nov 13, 2018, 1:34 PM Mike Hammett mailto:af...@ics-il.net>  wrote:

Bufferbloat is over-hyped.

Also, https://people.ucsc.edu/~warner/buffer.html

 



-
Mike Hammett
  Intelligent Computing Solutions
   
  
 
  
  Midwest Internet Exchange
   

Re: [AFMUG] bandwidth management appliance opinions

[Josh Baird]

Ah - didn’t realize they supported routing.  Thanks!

Sent from my iPhone

> On Nov 13, 2018, at 2:51 PM, Richard Strittmatter  wrote:
> 
> We just have failover OSPF connections between the routers.
> Core <-> preseem <-> access network
> +
> Core <-> access network  ( at a higher OSPF cost )
>  
> Simple. If the preseem fails, it routes around it. We are currently building 
> our second  preseem box to split the load ( because they only have 10GB 
> interfaces )
>  
> Richard Strittmatter
>  
> From: AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com] On Behalf Of Josh Baird
> Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2018 1:46 PM
> To: AFMUG 
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] bandwidth management appliance opinions
>  
> A concern that I have with Preseam (or any other vendor like this) is that it 
> requires me to put a single box (usually a Dell server) right in-line with 
> all of my customer traffic.  All of a sudden, my entire customer network is 
> reliant on a single Dell server.  I know that Procera and maybe some other 
> vendors offered bypass modules for this type of thing, but what are Preseam 
> customers doing?  Is this not a concern for you?
>  
> On Tue, Nov 13, 2018 at 2:40 PM Ken Hohhof  wrote:
> That’s what bothers me about Preseem, it sounds like it works by magic.  
> Every time in the past I’ve bought into magical solutions, I’ve been burned.
>  
> I don’t know how you decide between a Windows 10 Update, an Xbox game 
> download, a Netflix stream that with variable video quality, and a live 
> sports video stream that has a single stream rate and will buffer or skip if 
> it doesn’t get 10 Mbps … unless you identify the application via either DPI 
> or something equivalent.
>  
> Apparently Preseem allocates the bandwidth based on how the flow acts?  I 
> still don’t see how it can know that the software download can be deferred or 
> slowed until off-peak, the Netflix stream can be squeezed to 2.5 Mbps, but 
> the live sports stream needs a certain bitrate or it just won’t work.
>  
> Of course there’s also a bigger problem.  If you talk to the kid trying to 
> download the latest 50 gigabyte game and play it, that should get 100% of the 
> bandwidth.  But we’re never going to solve that one, unless we give customers 
> a portal where they can tweak the knobs themselves.
>  
>  
> From: AF  On Behalf Of Darin Steffl  
>   
>  
> Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2018 1:21 PM
> To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] bandwidth management appliance opinions
>  
> I'll say we've used procera, saisei, in the past and they're DPI. They're 
> cool and you can do lots of things with them. They also require hands-on 
> attention and tweaking. They give you NO usable QoE data so you still can't 
> tell where you have trouble in your network or individual customers like you 
> can with preseem. 
>  
> We now use preseem for about 11 months and we love it! It's not DPI so don't 
> even think that you can shape individual types of traffic like video, 
> updates, etc because thats not what it is. 
>  
> It requires no tweaking or hands-on configuration at all and preseem guys do 
> all the work for you. It provides the best QoE data of any service out there 
> and really helps tell you what tower, sector, or customer is having a bad 
> experience so you can fix it. On top of this valuable data, it does your rate 
> plan shaping and it does it damn well to boot. Customers can now max out 
> their rate plans without a spike in latency or complaints or laggy gaming or 
> slow web browsing. It allows small traffic flows like voip, dns, web 
> browsing, gaming to "jump the queue" so to speak so large flows like video 
> and updates don't slow everything down. 
>  
> It's very handy. I've rate shaped my home down to 3 mbps and still was able 
> to run 2 Netflix streams, 1 YouTube, plus a voip call and web browse without 
> any lag or buffering whatsoever. 
>  
> I highly recommend anyone do a trial with preseem and you'll be happy 
> campers. 
>  
> On Tue, Nov 13, 2018, 1:34 PM Mike Hammett  Bufferbloat is over-hyped.
> 
> Also, https://people.ucsc.edu/~warner/buffer.html
>  
> 
> 
> 
> -
> Mike Hammett
> Intelligent Computing Solutions
> 
> Midwest Internet Exchange
> 
> The Brothers WISP
> 
> 
> 
> From: "Ken Hohhof" 
> To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" 
> Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2018 11:59:53 AM
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] bandwidth management appliance opinions
> 
> Where is this alleged bufferbloat coming from?
>  
> It can’t be from rate queues.  The highest we set our Mikrotik queues is 
> around 40 packets before they start dropping packets.  We have pushed the 
> queue depth higher to signal congestion to TCP Vegas style implementations.  
> But at 10 Mbps that’s still only ~40 milliseconds of delay.  I don’t think 
> that qualifies as bufferbloat.
>  
> Where in a typical WISP network are these huge buffers?  

Re: [AFMUG] bandwidth management appliance opinions

[Darin Steffl]

For fail over, there is no reason why you should worry. You can easily use
OSPF or other redundancy methods to route around the preseem in the event
of a failure. I don't mean to offend but you may want to brush up on that
if you don't know about it already.

In response to the magic about preseem, it's not magic at all. It uses
fq_codel to shape traffic like they reference on their website and it does
Not target certain streams or know that something needs more bandwidth.
Almost all video had variable bitrate now so if you have 10 meg plan and
you're running 3 video streams, it should split them about equal to 3.33
mbps for each stream. If Netflix drops down to 2.5 mbps then there's a
little extra left over for the other streams. What doesn't change is that
the small flows that don't use much throughout will always go to the front
of the queue to make sure they get priority over the big flows.

Preseem classifies it as "mice flows" and "elephant flows"

I don't know of any video services that don't have variable bitrate. All
the ones I use have that: Netflix, YouTube, Hulu, etc.

On Tue, Nov 13, 2018, 2:52 PM Richard Strittmatter  We just have failover OSPF connections between the routers.
>
> Core <-> preseem <-> access network
>
> +
>
> Core <-> access network  ( at a higher OSPF cost )
>
>
>
> Simple. If the preseem fails, it routes around it. We are currently
> building our second  preseem box to split the load ( because they only have
> 10GB interfaces )
>
>
>
> Richard Strittmatter
>
>
>
> *From:* AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com] *On Behalf Of *Josh Baird
> *Sent:* Tuesday, November 13, 2018 1:46 PM
> *To:* AFMUG 
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] bandwidth management appliance opinions
>
>
>
> A concern that I have with Preseam (or any other vendor like this) is that
> it requires me to put a single box (usually a Dell server) right in-line
> with all of my customer traffic.  All of a sudden, my entire customer
> network is reliant on a single Dell server.  I know that Procera and maybe
> some other vendors offered bypass modules for this type of thing, but what
> are Preseam customers doing?  Is this not a concern for you?
>
>
>
> On Tue, Nov 13, 2018 at 2:40 PM Ken Hohhof  wrote:
>
> That’s what bothers me about Preseem, it sounds like it works by magic.
> Every time in the past I’ve bought into magical solutions, I’ve been burned.
>
>
>
> I don’t know how you decide between a Windows 10 Update, an Xbox game
> download, a Netflix stream that with variable video quality, and a live
> sports video stream that has a single stream rate and will buffer or skip
> if it doesn’t get 10 Mbps … unless you identify the application via either
> DPI or something equivalent.
>
>
>
> Apparently Preseem allocates the bandwidth based on how the flow acts?  I
> still don’t see how it can know that the software download can be deferred
> or slowed until off-peak, the Netflix stream can be squeezed to 2.5 Mbps,
> but the live sports stream needs a certain bitrate or it just won’t work.
>
>
>
> Of course there’s also a bigger problem.  If you talk to the kid trying to
> download the latest 50 gigabyte game and play it, that should get 100% of
> the bandwidth.  But we’re never going to solve that one, unless we give
> customers a portal where they can tweak the knobs themselves.
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* AF  *On Behalf Of *Darin
> Steffl
>
> *Sent:* Tuesday, November 13, 2018 1:21 PM
> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] bandwidth management appliance opinions
>
>
>
> I'll say we've used procera, saisei, in the past and they're DPI. They're
> cool and you can do lots of things with them. They also require hands-on
> attention and tweaking. They give you NO usable QoE data so you still can't
> tell where you have trouble in your network or individual customers like
> you can with preseem.
>
>
>
> We now use preseem for about 11 months and we love it! It's not DPI so
> don't even think that you can shape individual types of traffic like video,
> updates, etc because thats not what it is.
>
>
>
> It requires no tweaking or hands-on configuration at all and preseem guys
> do all the work for you. It provides the best QoE data of any service out
> there and really helps tell you what tower, sector, or customer is having a
> bad experience so you can fix it. On top of this valuable data, it does
> your rate plan shaping and it does it damn well to boot. Customers can now
> max out their rate plans without a spike in latency or complaints or laggy
> gaming or slow web browsing. It allows small traffic flows like voip, dns,
> web browsing, gaming to "jump the queue" so to speak so large flows like
> video and updates don't slow everything down.
>
>
>
> It's very handy. I've rate shaped my home down to 3 mbps and still was
> able to run 2 Netflix streams, 1 YouTube, plus a voip call and web browse
> without any lag or buffering whatsoever.
>
>
>
> I highly recommend anyone do a trial with preseem and you'll 

Re: [AFMUG] bandwidth management appliance opinions

[Richard Strittmatter]

We just have failover OSPF connections between the routers.
Core <-> preseem <-> access network
+
Core <-> access network  ( at a higher OSPF cost )

Simple. If the preseem fails, it routes around it. We are currently building 
our second  preseem box to split the load ( because they only have 10GB 
interfaces )

Richard Strittmatter

From: AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com] On Behalf Of Josh Baird
Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2018 1:46 PM
To: AFMUG 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] bandwidth management appliance opinions

A concern that I have with Preseam (or any other vendor like this) is that it 
requires me to put a single box (usually a Dell server) right in-line with all 
of my customer traffic.  All of a sudden, my entire customer network is reliant 
on a single Dell server.  I know that Procera and maybe some other vendors 
offered bypass modules for this type of thing, but what are Preseam customers 
doing?  Is this not a concern for you?

On Tue, Nov 13, 2018 at 2:40 PM Ken Hohhof 
mailto:af...@kwisp.com>> wrote:
That’s what bothers me about Preseem, it sounds like it works by magic.  Every 
time in the past I’ve bought into magical solutions, I’ve been burned.

I don’t know how you decide between a Windows 10 Update, an Xbox game download, 
a Netflix stream that with variable video quality, and a live sports video 
stream that has a single stream rate and will buffer or skip if it doesn’t get 
10 Mbps … unless you identify the application via either DPI or something 
equivalent.

Apparently Preseem allocates the bandwidth based on how the flow acts?  I still 
don’t see how it can know that the software download can be deferred or slowed 
until off-peak, the Netflix stream can be squeezed to 2.5 Mbps, but the live 
sports stream needs a certain bitrate or it just won’t work.

Of course there’s also a bigger problem.  If you talk to the kid trying to 
download the latest 50 gigabyte game and play it, that should get 100% of the 
bandwidth.  But we’re never going to solve that one, unless we give customers a 
portal where they can tweak the knobs themselves.


From: AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com>> On Behalf Of 
Darin Steffl
Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2018 1:21 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group mailto:af@af.afmug.com>>
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] bandwidth management appliance opinions

I'll say we've used procera, saisei, in the past and they're DPI. They're cool 
and you can do lots of things with them. They also require hands-on attention 
and tweaking. They give you NO usable QoE data so you still can't tell where 
you have trouble in your network or individual customers like you can with 
preseem.

We now use preseem for about 11 months and we love it! It's not DPI so don't 
even think that you can shape individual types of traffic like video, updates, 
etc because thats not what it is.

It requires no tweaking or hands-on configuration at all and preseem guys do 
all the work for you. It provides the best QoE data of any service out there 
and really helps tell you what tower, sector, or customer is having a bad 
experience so you can fix it. On top of this valuable data, it does your rate 
plan shaping and it does it damn well to boot. Customers can now max out their 
rate plans without a spike in latency or complaints or laggy gaming or slow web 
browsing. It allows small traffic flows like voip, dns, web browsing, gaming to 
"jump the queue" so to speak so large flows like video and updates don't slow 
everything down.

It's very handy. I've rate shaped my home down to 3 mbps and still was able to 
run 2 Netflix streams, 1 YouTube, plus a voip call and web browse without any 
lag or buffering whatsoever.

I highly recommend anyone do a trial with preseem and you'll be happy campers.

On Tue, Nov 13, 2018, 1:34 PM Mike Hammett 
mailto:af...@ics-il.net> wrote:
Bufferbloat is over-hyped.

Also, https://people.ucsc.edu/~warner/buffer.html



-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
[Image removed by sender.][Image removed by 
sender.][Image 
removed by 
sender.][Image
 removed by sender.]
Midwest Internet Exchange
[Image removed by sender.][Image removed by 
sender.][Image 
removed by sender.]
The Brothers WISP
[Image removed by sender.][Image 
removed by sender.]




From: "Ken Hohhof" mailto:af...@kwisp.com>>
To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" mailto:af@af.afmug.com>>
Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2018 11:59:53 AM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] bandwidth management appliance 

Re: [AFMUG] bandwidth management appliance opinions

[Josh Baird]

A concern that I have with Preseam (or any other vendor like this) is that
it requires me to put a single box (usually a Dell server) right in-line
with all of my customer traffic.  All of a sudden, my entire customer
network is reliant on a single Dell server.  I know that Procera and maybe
some other vendors offered bypass modules for this type of thing, but what
are Preseam customers doing?  Is this not a concern for you?

On Tue, Nov 13, 2018 at 2:40 PM Ken Hohhof  wrote:

> That’s what bothers me about Preseem, it sounds like it works by magic.
> Every time in the past I’ve bought into magical solutions, I’ve been burned.
>
>
>
> I don’t know how you decide between a Windows 10 Update, an Xbox game
> download, a Netflix stream that with variable video quality, and a live
> sports video stream that has a single stream rate and will buffer or skip
> if it doesn’t get 10 Mbps … unless you identify the application via either
> DPI or something equivalent.
>
>
>
> Apparently Preseem allocates the bandwidth based on how the flow acts?  I
> still don’t see how it can know that the software download can be deferred
> or slowed until off-peak, the Netflix stream can be squeezed to 2.5 Mbps,
> but the live sports stream needs a certain bitrate or it just won’t work.
>
>
>
> Of course there’s also a bigger problem.  If you talk to the kid trying to
> download the latest 50 gigabyte game and play it, that should get 100% of
> the bandwidth.  But we’re never going to solve that one, unless we give
> customers a portal where they can tweak the knobs themselves.
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* AF  *On Behalf Of *Darin
> Steffl
>
> *Sent:* Tuesday, November 13, 2018 1:21 PM
> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] bandwidth management appliance opinions
>
>
>
> I'll say we've used procera, saisei, in the past and they're DPI. They're
> cool and you can do lots of things with them. They also require hands-on
> attention and tweaking. They give you NO usable QoE data so you still can't
> tell where you have trouble in your network or individual customers like
> you can with preseem.
>
>
>
> We now use preseem for about 11 months and we love it! It's not DPI so
> don't even think that you can shape individual types of traffic like video,
> updates, etc because thats not what it is.
>
>
>
> It requires no tweaking or hands-on configuration at all and preseem guys
> do all the work for you. It provides the best QoE data of any service out
> there and really helps tell you what tower, sector, or customer is having a
> bad experience so you can fix it. On top of this valuable data, it does
> your rate plan shaping and it does it damn well to boot. Customers can now
> max out their rate plans without a spike in latency or complaints or laggy
> gaming or slow web browsing. It allows small traffic flows like voip, dns,
> web browsing, gaming to "jump the queue" so to speak so large flows like
> video and updates don't slow everything down.
>
>
>
> It's very handy. I've rate shaped my home down to 3 mbps and still was
> able to run 2 Netflix streams, 1 YouTube, plus a voip call and web browse
> without any lag or buffering whatsoever.
>
>
>
> I highly recommend anyone do a trial with preseem and you'll be happy
> campers.
>
>
>
> On Tue, Nov 13, 2018, 1:34 PM Mike Hammett 
> Bufferbloat is over-hyped.
>
> Also, https://people.ucsc.edu/~warner/buffer.html
>
>
>
>
>
> -
> Mike Hammett
> Intelligent Computing Solutions 
> [image: Image removed by sender.] [image:
> Image removed by sender.]
> [image:
> Image removed by sender.]
> [image:
> Image removed by sender.] 
> Midwest Internet Exchange 
> [image: Image removed by sender.] [image:
> Image removed by sender.]
> [image: Image
> removed by sender.] 
> The Brothers WISP 
> [image: Image removed by sender.]
> [image: Image removed by
> sender.]
>
>
> 
> --
>
> *From: *"Ken Hohhof" 
> *To: *"AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" 
> *Sent: *Tuesday, November 13, 2018 11:59:53 AM
> *Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] bandwidth management appliance opinions
>
> Where is this alleged bufferbloat coming from?
>
>
>
> It can’t be from rate queues.  The highest we set our Mikrotik queues is
> around 40 packets before they start dropping packets.  We have pushed the
> queue depth higher to signal congestion to TCP Vegas style
> implementations.  But at 10 Mbps that’s still only ~40 milliseconds of
> delay.  I don’t think that qualifies as bufferbloat.
>
>
>
> Where in a 

Re: [AFMUG] bandwidth management appliance opinions

[Ken Hohhof]

That’s what bothers me about Preseem, it sounds like it works by magic.  Every 
time in the past I’ve bought into magical solutions, I’ve been burned.

 

I don’t know how you decide between a Windows 10 Update, an Xbox game download, 
a Netflix stream that with variable video quality, and a live sports video 
stream that has a single stream rate and will buffer or skip if it doesn’t get 
10 Mbps … unless you identify the application via either DPI or something 
equivalent.

 

Apparently Preseem allocates the bandwidth based on how the flow acts?  I still 
don’t see how it can know that the software download can be deferred or slowed 
until off-peak, the Netflix stream can be squeezed to 2.5 Mbps, but the live 
sports stream needs a certain bitrate or it just won’t work.

 

Of course there’s also a bigger problem.  If you talk to the kid trying to 
download the latest 50 gigabyte game and play it, that should get 100% of the 
bandwidth.  But we’re never going to solve that one, unless we give customers a 
portal where they can tweak the knobs themselves.

 

 

From: AF  On Behalf Of Darin Steffl

 
Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2018 1:21 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] bandwidth management appliance opinions

 

I'll say we've used procera, saisei, in the past and they're DPI. They're cool 
and you can do lots of things with them. They also require hands-on attention 
and tweaking. They give you NO usable QoE data so you still can't tell where 
you have trouble in your network or individual customers like you can with 
preseem. 

 

We now use preseem for about 11 months and we love it! It's not DPI so don't 
even think that you can shape individual types of traffic like video, updates, 
etc because thats not what it is. 

 

It requires no tweaking or hands-on configuration at all and preseem guys do 
all the work for you. It provides the best QoE data of any service out there 
and really helps tell you what tower, sector, or customer is having a bad 
experience so you can fix it. On top of this valuable data, it does your rate 
plan shaping and it does it damn well to boot. Customers can now max out their 
rate plans without a spike in latency or complaints or laggy gaming or slow web 
browsing. It allows small traffic flows like voip, dns, web browsing, gaming to 
"jump the queue" so to speak so large flows like video and updates don't slow 
everything down. 

 

It's very handy. I've rate shaped my home down to 3 mbps and still was able to 
run 2 Netflix streams, 1 YouTube, plus a voip call and web browse without any 
lag or buffering whatsoever. 

 

I highly recommend anyone do a trial with preseem and you'll be happy campers. 

 

On Tue, Nov 13, 2018, 1:34 PM Mike Hammett mailto:af...@ics-il.net>  wrote:

Bufferbloat is over-hyped.

Also, https://people.ucsc.edu/~warner/buffer.html

 



-
Mike Hammett
  Intelligent Computing Solutions
   
  
  
 
  Midwest Internet Exchange
   
  
 
  The Brothers WISP
   
 





  _  


From: "Ken Hohhof" mailto:af...@kwisp.com> >
To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" mailto:af@af.afmug.com> >
Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2018 11:59:53 AM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] bandwidth management appliance opinions

Where is this alleged bufferbloat coming from?

 

It can’t be from rate queues.  The highest we set our Mikrotik queues is around 
40 packets before they start dropping packets.  We have pushed the queue depth 
higher to signal congestion to TCP Vegas style implementations.  But at 10 Mbps 
that’s still only ~40 milliseconds of delay.  I don’t think that qualifies as 
bufferbloat.

 

Where in a typical WISP network are these huge buffers?  Are you talking about 
APs at 100% of capacity?  I admit I don’t know how much data an AP will buffer 
waiting for a timeslot to send the data over the air.  But the only time I see 
latencies soar toward 1 second under load is on my one hated WiMAX basestation, 
and I think that may be due to excessive HARQ retries or something.

 

 

From: AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com> > On Behalf 
Of Dev
Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2018 11:41 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group mailto:af@af.afmug.com> >
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] bandwidth management appliance opinions

 

I looked at a couple variations of buffer bloat management, and have decided to 
build my own and maybe just open source the thing for “people 

Re: [AFMUG] bandwidth management appliance opinions

[Ken Hohhof]

Lucy and Ethel demonstrate bufferbloat:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HnbNcQlzV-4

 

 

From: AF  On Behalf Of Mike Hammett
Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2018 12:33 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] bandwidth management appliance opinions

 

Bufferbloat is over-hyped.

Also, https://people.ucsc.edu/~warner/buffer.html

 



-
Mike Hammett
  Intelligent Computing Solutions
   
  
  
 
  Midwest Internet Exchange
   
  
 
  The Brothers WISP
   
 




  _  

From: "Ken Hohhof" mailto:af...@kwisp.com> >
To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" mailto:af@af.afmug.com> >
Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2018 11:59:53 AM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] bandwidth management appliance opinions

Where is this alleged bufferbloat coming from?

 

It can’t be from rate queues.  The highest we set our Mikrotik queues is around 
40 packets before they start dropping packets.  We have pushed the queue depth 
higher to signal congestion to TCP Vegas style implementations.  But at 10 Mbps 
that’s still only ~40 milliseconds of delay.  I don’t think that qualifies as 
bufferbloat.

 

Where in a typical WISP network are these huge buffers?  Are you talking about 
APs at 100% of capacity?  I admit I don’t know how much data an AP will buffer 
waiting for a timeslot to send the data over the air.  But the only time I see 
latencies soar toward 1 second under load is on my one hated WiMAX basestation, 
and I think that may be due to excessive HARQ retries or something.

 

 

From: AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com> > On Behalf 
Of Dev
Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2018 11:41 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group mailto:af@af.afmug.com> >
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] bandwidth management appliance opinions

 

I looked at a couple variations of buffer bloat management, and have decided to 
build my own and maybe just open source the thing for “people who feel 50K 
seems excessive” and just need some basic functionality on a vanilla Linux box. 
The open source tech is out there, it’s just tying it all together in some sane 
way. I hope others will open source what they’re working on too, that’s what 
the community is about. I feel like the community is moving away from including 
the little guys these days.

 


  
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

-- 
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http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

 


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Re: [AFMUG] bandwidth management appliance opinions

[Darin Steffl]

I'll say we've used procera, saisei, in the past and they're DPI. They're
cool and you can do lots of things with them. They also require hands-on
attention and tweaking. They give you NO usable QoE data so you still can't
tell where you have trouble in your network or individual customers like
you can with preseem.

We now use preseem for about 11 months and we love it! It's not DPI so
don't even think that you can shape individual types of traffic like video,
updates, etc because thats not what it is.

It requires no tweaking or hands-on configuration at all and preseem guys
do all the work for you. It provides the best QoE data of any service out
there and really helps tell you what tower, sector, or customer is having a
bad experience so you can fix it. On top of this valuable data, it does
your rate plan shaping and it does it damn well to boot. Customers can now
max out their rate plans without a spike in latency or complaints or laggy
gaming or slow web browsing. It allows small traffic flows like voip, dns,
web browsing, gaming to "jump the queue" so to speak so large flows like
video and updates don't slow everything down.

It's very handy. I've rate shaped my home down to 3 mbps and still was able
to run 2 Netflix streams, 1 YouTube, plus a voip call and web browse
without any lag or buffering whatsoever.

I highly recommend anyone do a trial with preseem and you'll be happy
campers.

On Tue, Nov 13, 2018, 1:34 PM Mike Hammett  Bufferbloat is over-hyped.
>
> Also, https://people.ucsc.edu/~warner/buffer.html
>
>
>
>
> -
> Mike Hammett
> Intelligent Computing Solutions 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Midwest Internet Exchange 
> 
> 
> 
> The Brothers WISP 
> 
>
>
> 
> --
> *From: *"Ken Hohhof" 
> *To: *"AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" 
> *Sent: *Tuesday, November 13, 2018 11:59:53 AM
> *Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] bandwidth management appliance opinions
>
> Where is this alleged bufferbloat coming from?
>
>
>
> It can’t be from rate queues.  The highest we set our Mikrotik queues is
> around 40 packets before they start dropping packets.  We have pushed the
> queue depth higher to signal congestion to TCP Vegas style
> implementations.  But at 10 Mbps that’s still only ~40 milliseconds of
> delay.  I don’t think that qualifies as bufferbloat.
>
>
>
> Where in a typical WISP network are these huge buffers?  Are you talking
> about APs at 100% of capacity?  I admit I don’t know how much data an AP
> will buffer waiting for a timeslot to send the data over the air.  But the
> only time I see latencies soar toward 1 second under load is on my one
> hated WiMAX basestation, and I think that may be due to excessive HARQ
> retries or something.
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* AF  *On Behalf Of *Dev
> *Sent:* Tuesday, November 13, 2018 11:41 AM
> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] bandwidth management appliance opinions
>
>
>
> I looked at a couple variations of buffer bloat management, and have
> decided to build my own and maybe just open source the thing for “people
> who feel 50K seems excessive” and just need some basic functionality on a
> vanilla Linux box. The open source tech is out there, it’s just tying it
> all together in some sane way. I hope others will open source what they’re
> working on too, that’s what the community is about. I feel like the
> community is moving away from including the little guys these days.
>
>
>
>
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>
> --
> AF mailing list
> AF@af.afmug.com
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>
>
>
> --
> AF mailing list
> AF@af.afmug.com
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>
> --
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> AF@af.afmug.com
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>
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AF@af.afmug.com
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Re: [AFMUG] bandwidth management appliance opinions

[Mike Hammett]

Bufferbloat is over-hyped. 

Also, https://people.ucsc.edu/~warner/buffer.html 





- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 




- Original Message -

From: "Ken Hohhof"  
To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group"  
Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2018 11:59:53 AM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] bandwidth management appliance opinions 



Where is this alleged bufferbloat coming from? 

It can’t be from rate queues. The highest we set our Mikrotik queues is around 
40 packets before they start dropping packets. We have pushed the queue depth 
higher to signal congestion to TCP Vegas style implementations. But at 10 Mbps 
that’s still only ~40 milliseconds of delay. I don’t think that qualifies as 
bufferbloat. 

Where in a typical WISP network are these huge buffers? Are you talking about 
APs at 100% of capacity? I admit I don’t know how much data an AP will buffer 
waiting for a timeslot to send the data over the air. But the only time I see 
latencies soar toward 1 second under load is on my one hated WiMAX basestation, 
and I think that may be due to excessive HARQ retries or something. 




From: AF  On Behalf Of Dev 
Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2018 11:41 AM 
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group  
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] bandwidth management appliance opinions 

I looked at a couple variations of buffer bloat management, and have decided to 
build my own and maybe just open source the thing for “people who feel 50K 
seems excessive” and just need some basic functionality on a vanilla Linux box. 
The open source tech is out there, it’s just tying it all together in some sane 
way. I hope others will open source what they’re working on too, that’s what 
the community is about. I feel like the community is moving away from including 
the little guys these days. 











http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com 


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[AFMUG] Avast web shield broken?

[castarritt]

We have been getting a lot of calls from customers who can't browse until
they turn off their Avast web shield.  Anyone else seeing this?
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Re: [AFMUG] bandwidth management appliance opinions

[Ken Hohhof]

Where is this alleged bufferbloat coming from?

 

It can’t be from rate queues.  The highest we set our Mikrotik queues is around 
40 packets before they start dropping packets.  We have pushed the queue depth 
higher to signal congestion to TCP Vegas style implementations.  But at 10 Mbps 
that’s still only ~40 milliseconds of delay.  I don’t think that qualifies as 
bufferbloat.

 

Where in a typical WISP network are these huge buffers?  Are you talking about 
APs at 100% of capacity?  I admit I don’t know how much data an AP will buffer 
waiting for a timeslot to send the data over the air.  But the only time I see 
latencies soar toward 1 second under load is on my one hated WiMAX basestation, 
and I think that may be due to excessive HARQ retries or something.

 

 

From: AF  On Behalf Of Dev
Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2018 11:41 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] bandwidth management appliance opinions

 

I looked at a couple variations of buffer bloat management, and have decided to 
build my own and maybe just open source the thing for “people who feel 50K 
seems excessive” and just need some basic functionality on a vanilla Linux box. 
The open source tech is out there, it’s just tying it all together in some sane 
way. I hope others will open source what they’re working on too, that’s what 
the community is about. I feel like the community is moving away from including 
the little guys these days.

 


  
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

-- 
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Re: [AFMUG] bandwidth management appliance opinions

[SmarterBroadband]

Regarding Procera.  

 

I am looking for a Procera Expert / Consultant to help get our Procera boxes 
doing great things for us.   

 

Does anyone know of someone?

 

Thanks

 

Adam

 

From: AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com] On Behalf Of Ken Hohhof
Sent: Monday, November 12, 2018 6:51 PM
To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] bandwidth management appliance opinions

 

Yes, if you’ve looked at all three, that would be fantastic.  On list, or off 
list to khohhof “at” kwom.com.

 

If you loved Procera, why did you switch?

 

 

From: AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com> > On Behalf 
Of Adair Winter
Sent: Monday, November 12, 2018 8:28 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group mailto:af@af.afmug.com> >
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] bandwidth management appliance opinions

 

Honestly, we loved procera. We are currently with Saisei but not overly happy.

About to do a preseem demo. 

I can send more detail if you'd like later. On mobile now. 

 

Adair 

 

On Mon, Nov 12, 2018, 5:10 PM Ken Hohhof mailto:af...@kwisp.com>  wrote:

Once upon a time there was just Procera.  Then there was Saisei and then 
Preseem.  As of the recent WISPAPALOOZA it seems we also have Bequant, which 
bills their product as a TCP proxy, which is not really what I’m looking for.

 

Can anyone relate success or horror stories with any of these, on or off list?  
I have at least one WISP recommending Preseem, and they seem like the latest 
hot thing.  I am confused as to whether Sandvine/Procera is still selling to 
the WISP market, and if so, what is their sales channel.  I just got off a 
conference call with Saisei, and everything sounded reasonably good, no red 
flags.

 

I could go ahead with a trial license from one of these guys, but it would be 
good to know who is using what and how they like it.  Anybody can have a good 
Powerpoint presentation, the question is, how does it work in the real world. 

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Re: [AFMUG] bandwidth management appliance opinions

[Dev]

I looked at a couple variations of buffer bloat management, and have decided to 
build my own and maybe just open source the thing for “people who feel 50K 
seems excessive” and just need some basic functionality on a vanilla Linux box. 
The open source tech is out there, it’s just tying it all together in some sane 
way. I hope others will open source what they’re working on too, that’s what 
the community is about. I feel like the community is moving away from including 
the little guys these days.

>> 
>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com 
>> -- 
> AF mailing list
> AF@af.afmug.com
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

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Re: [AFMUG] bandwidth management appliance opinions

[Adair Winter]

They have "procera virtual" on your own hardware. We tried it but it had
some major issues that drove us to switch away. not sure if that's other
peoples experience or not


On Tue, Nov 13, 2018 at 10:56 AM Jason McKemie <
j.mcke...@veloxinetbroadband.com> wrote:

> Doesn't sonar still have the ability to add Procera per-user on
> off-the-shelf Dell hardware if you're using their system? I was considering
> going that route.
>
> On Tuesday, November 13, 2018, Ken Hohhof  wrote:
>
>> I think with Procera you pay for the box and maintenance, while with
>> Saisei you pay monthly per active user (and buy a Dell server).  You’d have
>> to do some math to figure out which is cheaper.  I think the commitment
>> might also be 1 year vs. 3 years, but maybe that’s negotiable.
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* AF  *On Behalf Of *Kurt Fankhauser
>> *Sent:* Tuesday, November 13, 2018 10:19 AM
>> *To:* af@af.afmug.com
>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] bandwidth management appliance opinions
>>
>>
>>
>> I too have a Procera box currently (the small one that only does 1gig
>> aggregate) and am at the point of needing to upgrade that and Powercode is
>> my billing server and they are saying that the Saisei box is a lot cheaper
>> than Procera since its just Ubuntu running on your own hardware. They said
>> most of their customers that have been running Proceras are pretty much all
>> switching to Saisei. I am trying to figure out what to do myself. My
>> Procera annual license renewal comes up in December.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Nov 12, 2018 at 11:06 PM Adair Winter <
>> ada...@amarillowireless.net> wrote:
>>
>> We outgrew the box is why we switched. We tried to go with procera
>> virtual which was procera on your own (to their spec) box but it was
>> riddled with problems. A appliance the next size up with $70k and we were
>> not ready to drop that kind of money on it. although I kinda wish we would
>> have. Saisei has had weird UDP traffic flow issues. We've had Voip and VPN
>> issues where we've had to bypass customers around the box until we
>> rebooted. Thought it was fixed but it's returned again.
>>
>> Gonna give pressem a try and see what happens. If it doesn't work not
>> sure what we will do. Only real option is mikrotik queues. I guess.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Nov 12, 2018 at 8:53 PM Ryan Ray  wrote:
>>
>> The biggest thing we are looking for is being able to keep customer
>> experience high even while they're using their plan. Our problem now is
>> someone will be using 50Mb/s sustained on the down, and their pings go high
>> and experience is worse than it should be. Trying to get buffer bloat down,
>> being able to prioritize different traffic behind others is nice as well.
>> We will see what happens.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Nov 12, 2018 at 6:47 PM Ryan Ray  wrote:
>>
>> Also testing out Preseem. Signed up at wispa, just got the boxes in the
>> network and can't wait to see what it can do.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Nov 12, 2018 at 6:29 PM Adair Winter 
>> wrote:
>>
>> Honestly, we loved procera. We are currently with Saisei but not overly
>> happy.
>>
>> About to do a preseem demo.
>>
>> I can send more detail if you'd like later. On mobile now.
>>
>>
>>
>> Adair
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Nov 12, 2018, 5:10 PM Ken Hohhof >
>> Once upon a time there was just Procera.  Then there was Saisei and then
>> Preseem.  As of the recent WISPAPALOOZA it seems we also have Bequant,
>> which bills their product as a TCP proxy, which is not really what I’m
>> looking for.
>>
>>
>>
>> Can anyone relate success or horror stories with any of these, on or off
>> list?  I have at least one WISP recommending Preseem, and they seem like
>> the latest hot thing.  I am confused as to whether Sandvine/Procera is
>> still selling to the WISP market, and if so, what is their sales channel.
>> I just got off a conference call with Saisei, and everything sounded
>> reasonably good, no red flags.
>>
>>
>>
>> I could go ahead with a trial license from one of these guys, but it
>> would be good to know who is using what and how they like it.  Anybody can
>> have a good Powerpoint presentation, the question is, how does it work in
>> the real world.
>>
>> --
>> AF mailing list
>> AF@af.afmug.com
>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>>
>> --
>> AF mailing list
>> AF@af.afmug.com
>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>>
>> --
>> AF mailing list
>> AF@af.afmug.com
>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> Adair Winter
>> VP, Network Operations / Co-Owner
>> Amarillo Wireless | 806.316.5071
>> C: 806.231.7180
>> http://www.amarillowireless.net
>> [image: Image removed by sender.] 
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> AF mailing list
>> AF@af.afmug.com
>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>>
>> --
> AF mailing list
> AF@af.afmug.com
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>


-- 

Adair Winter
VP, Network Operations / Co-Owner
Amarillo Wireless | 806.316.5071

Re: [AFMUG] bandwidth management appliance opinions

[Darren Shea]

That makes sense – when we started using ours a couple of years ago, I was 
thinking they would have some turnkey options we could later modify as needed. 
Nope, that’s not how they do things. They basically sell you the box and a 
support contract, then they teach a person at the company how to design and 
implement things like bandwidth plans and shaping rules, and how to interface 
with a PSM if that’s the direction you want to go. There’s a lot of 
documentation, but a fair amount of it is needlessly arcane, and there just 
aren’t any “best practices” configuration ideas they can share. I can’t imagine 
that’s an efficient way to do things for a smaller WISP.

 

From: AF [mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com] On Behalf Of Darin Steffl
Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2018 10:43 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] bandwidth management appliance opinions

 

Everything I've heard is procera is not supporting small ISP's like wisp's any 
longer. They are focusing on the 100k+ wisp's. 

 

On Tue, Nov 13, 2018, 11:20 AM Kurt Fankhauser  
wrote:

We outgrew the box is why we switched. We tried to go with procera virtual 
which was procera on your own (to their spec) box but it was riddled with 
problems. A appliance the next size up with $70k and we were not ready to drop 
that kind of money on it. although I kinda wish we would have. Saisei has had 
weird UDP traffic flow issues. We've had Voip and VPN issues where we've had to 
bypass customers around the box until we rebooted. Thought it was fixed but 
it's returned again.

Gonna give pressem a try and see what happens. If it doesn't work not sure what 
we will do. Only real option is mikrotik queues. I guess.

 

On Mon, Nov 12, 2018 at 8:53 PM Ryan Ray  wrote:

The biggest thing we are looking for is being able to keep customer experience 
high even while they're using their plan. Our problem now is someone will be 
using 50Mb/s sustained on the down, and their pings go high and experience is 
worse than it should be. Trying to get buffer bloat down, being able to 
prioritize different traffic behind others is nice as well. We will see what 
happens. 

 

On Mon, Nov 12, 2018 at 6:47 PM Ryan Ray  wrote:

Also testing out Preseem. Signed up at wispa, just got the boxes in the network 
and can't wait to see what it can do.

 

 

On Mon, Nov 12, 2018 at 6:29 PM Adair Winter  
wrote:

Honestly, we loved procera. We are currently with Saisei but not overly happy.

About to do a preseem demo. 

I can send more detail if you'd like later. On mobile now. 

 

Adair 

 

On Mon, Nov 12, 2018, 5:10 PM Ken Hohhof http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

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VP, Network Operations / Co-Owner
Amarillo Wireless | 806.316.5071
C: 806.231.7180
  http://www.amarillowireless.net 
 


 

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Re: [AFMUG] bandwidth management appliance opinions

[Jason McKemie]

Doesn't sonar still have the ability to add Procera per-user on
off-the-shelf Dell hardware if you're using their system? I was considering
going that route.

On Tuesday, November 13, 2018, Ken Hohhof  wrote:

> I think with Procera you pay for the box and maintenance, while with
> Saisei you pay monthly per active user (and buy a Dell server).  You’d have
> to do some math to figure out which is cheaper.  I think the commitment
> might also be 1 year vs. 3 years, but maybe that’s negotiable.
>
>
>
> *From:* AF  *On Behalf Of *Kurt Fankhauser
> *Sent:* Tuesday, November 13, 2018 10:19 AM
> *To:* af@af.afmug.com
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] bandwidth management appliance opinions
>
>
>
> I too have a Procera box currently (the small one that only does 1gig
> aggregate) and am at the point of needing to upgrade that and Powercode is
> my billing server and they are saying that the Saisei box is a lot cheaper
> than Procera since its just Ubuntu running on your own hardware. They said
> most of their customers that have been running Proceras are pretty much all
> switching to Saisei. I am trying to figure out what to do myself. My
> Procera annual license renewal comes up in December.
>
>
>
> On Mon, Nov 12, 2018 at 11:06 PM Adair Winter 
> wrote:
>
> We outgrew the box is why we switched. We tried to go with procera virtual
> which was procera on your own (to their spec) box but it was riddled with
> problems. A appliance the next size up with $70k and we were not ready to
> drop that kind of money on it. although I kinda wish we would have. Saisei
> has had weird UDP traffic flow issues. We've had Voip and VPN issues where
> we've had to bypass customers around the box until we rebooted. Thought it
> was fixed but it's returned again.
>
> Gonna give pressem a try and see what happens. If it doesn't work not sure
> what we will do. Only real option is mikrotik queues. I guess.
>
>
>
> On Mon, Nov 12, 2018 at 8:53 PM Ryan Ray  wrote:
>
> The biggest thing we are looking for is being able to keep customer
> experience high even while they're using their plan. Our problem now is
> someone will be using 50Mb/s sustained on the down, and their pings go high
> and experience is worse than it should be. Trying to get buffer bloat down,
> being able to prioritize different traffic behind others is nice as well.
> We will see what happens.
>
>
>
> On Mon, Nov 12, 2018 at 6:47 PM Ryan Ray  wrote:
>
> Also testing out Preseem. Signed up at wispa, just got the boxes in the
> network and can't wait to see what it can do.
>
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Nov 12, 2018 at 6:29 PM Adair Winter 
> wrote:
>
> Honestly, we loved procera. We are currently with Saisei but not overly
> happy.
>
> About to do a preseem demo.
>
> I can send more detail if you'd like later. On mobile now.
>
>
>
> Adair
>
>
>
> On Mon, Nov 12, 2018, 5:10 PM Ken Hohhof 
> Once upon a time there was just Procera.  Then there was Saisei and then
> Preseem.  As of the recent WISPAPALOOZA it seems we also have Bequant,
> which bills their product as a TCP proxy, which is not really what I’m
> looking for.
>
>
>
> Can anyone relate success or horror stories with any of these, on or off
> list?  I have at least one WISP recommending Preseem, and they seem like
> the latest hot thing.  I am confused as to whether Sandvine/Procera is
> still selling to the WISP market, and if so, what is their sales channel.
> I just got off a conference call with Saisei, and everything sounded
> reasonably good, no red flags.
>
>
>
> I could go ahead with a trial license from one of these guys, but it would
> be good to know who is using what and how they like it.  Anybody can have a
> good Powerpoint presentation, the question is, how does it work in the real
> world.
>
> --
> AF mailing list
> AF@af.afmug.com
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>
> --
> AF mailing list
> AF@af.afmug.com
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>
> --
> AF mailing list
> AF@af.afmug.com
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Adair Winter
> VP, Network Operations / Co-Owner
> Amarillo Wireless | 806.316.5071
> C: 806.231.7180
> http://www.amarillowireless.net
> [image: Image removed by sender.] 
>
>
>
> --
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>
>
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Re: [AFMUG] bandwidth management appliance opinions

[Ken Hohhof]

I think with Procera you pay for the box and maintenance, while with Saisei you 
pay monthly per active user (and buy a Dell server).  You’d have to do some 
math to figure out which is cheaper.  I think the commitment might also be 1 
year vs. 3 years, but maybe that’s negotiable.

 

From: AF  On Behalf Of Kurt Fankhauser
Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2018 10:19 AM
To: af@af.afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] bandwidth management appliance opinions

 

I too have a Procera box currently (the small one that only does 1gig 
aggregate) and am at the point of needing to upgrade that and Powercode is my 
billing server and they are saying that the Saisei box is a lot cheaper than 
Procera since its just Ubuntu running on your own hardware. They said most of 
their customers that have been running Proceras are pretty much all switching 
to Saisei. I am trying to figure out what to do myself. My Procera annual 
license renewal comes up in December.

 

On Mon, Nov 12, 2018 at 11:06 PM Adair Winter mailto:ada...@amarillowireless.net> > wrote:

We outgrew the box is why we switched. We tried to go with procera virtual 
which was procera on your own (to their spec) box but it was riddled with 
problems. A appliance the next size up with $70k and we were not ready to drop 
that kind of money on it. although I kinda wish we would have. Saisei has had 
weird UDP traffic flow issues. We've had Voip and VPN issues where we've had to 
bypass customers around the box until we rebooted. Thought it was fixed but 
it's returned again.

Gonna give pressem a try and see what happens. If it doesn't work not sure what 
we will do. Only real option is mikrotik queues. I guess.

 

On Mon, Nov 12, 2018 at 8:53 PM Ryan Ray mailto:ryan...@gmail.com> > wrote:

The biggest thing we are looking for is being able to keep customer experience 
high even while they're using their plan. Our problem now is someone will be 
using 50Mb/s sustained on the down, and their pings go high and experience is 
worse than it should be. Trying to get buffer bloat down, being able to 
prioritize different traffic behind others is nice as well. We will see what 
happens. 

 

On Mon, Nov 12, 2018 at 6:47 PM Ryan Ray mailto:ryan...@gmail.com> > wrote:

Also testing out Preseem. Signed up at wispa, just got the boxes in the network 
and can't wait to see what it can do.

 

 

On Mon, Nov 12, 2018 at 6:29 PM Adair Winter mailto:ada...@amarillowireless.net> > wrote:

Honestly, we loved procera. We are currently with Saisei but not overly happy.

About to do a preseem demo. 

I can send more detail if you'd like later. On mobile now. 

 

Adair 

 

On Mon, Nov 12, 2018, 5:10 PM Ken Hohhof mailto:af...@kwisp.com>  wrote:

Once upon a time there was just Procera.  Then there was Saisei and then 
Preseem.  As of the recent WISPAPALOOZA it seems we also have Bequant, which 
bills their product as a TCP proxy, which is not really what I’m looking for.

 

Can anyone relate success or horror stories with any of these, on or off list?  
I have at least one WISP recommending Preseem, and they seem like the latest 
hot thing.  I am confused as to whether Sandvine/Procera is still selling to 
the WISP market, and if so, what is their sales channel.  I just got off a 
conference call with Saisei, and everything sounded reasonably good, no red 
flags.

 

I could go ahead with a trial license from one of these guys, but it would be 
good to know who is using what and how they like it.  Anybody can have a good 
Powerpoint presentation, the question is, how does it work in the real world. 

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-- 

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VP, Network Operations / Co-Owner
Amarillo Wireless | 806.316.5071
C: 806.231.7180
  http://www.amarillowireless.net 
 


 

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Re: [AFMUG] bandwidth management appliance opinions

[Darin Steffl]

Everything I've heard is procera is not supporting small ISP's like wisp's
any longer. They are focusing on the 100k+ wisp's.

On Tue, Nov 13, 2018, 11:20 AM Kurt Fankhauser  I too have a Procera box currently (the small one that only does 1gig
> aggregate) and am at the point of needing to upgrade that and Powercode is
> my billing server and they are saying that the Saisei box is a lot cheaper
> than Procera since its just Ubuntu running on your own hardware. They said
> most of their customers that have been running Proceras are pretty much all
> switching to Saisei. I am trying to figure out what to do myself. My
> Procera annual license renewal comes up in December.
>
> On Mon, Nov 12, 2018 at 11:06 PM Adair Winter 
> wrote:
>
>> We outgrew the box is why we switched. We tried to go with procera
>> virtual which was procera on your own (to their spec) box but it was
>> riddled with problems. A appliance the next size up with $70k and we were
>> not ready to drop that kind of money on it. although I kinda wish we would
>> have. Saisei has had weird UDP traffic flow issues. We've had Voip and VPN
>> issues where we've had to bypass customers around the box until we
>> rebooted. Thought it was fixed but it's returned again.
>> Gonna give pressem a try and see what happens. If it doesn't work not
>> sure what we will do. Only real option is mikrotik queues. I guess.
>>
>> On Mon, Nov 12, 2018 at 8:53 PM Ryan Ray  wrote:
>>
>>> The biggest thing we are looking for is being able to keep customer
>>> experience high even while they're using their plan. Our problem now is
>>> someone will be using 50Mb/s sustained on the down, and their pings go high
>>> and experience is worse than it should be. Trying to get buffer bloat down,
>>> being able to prioritize different traffic behind others is nice as well.
>>> We will see what happens.
>>>
>>> On Mon, Nov 12, 2018 at 6:47 PM Ryan Ray  wrote:
>>>
 Also testing out Preseem. Signed up at wispa, just got the boxes in the
 network and can't wait to see what it can do.


 On Mon, Nov 12, 2018 at 6:29 PM Adair Winter <
 ada...@amarillowireless.net> wrote:

> Honestly, we loved procera. We are currently with Saisei but not
> overly happy.
> About to do a preseem demo.
> I can send more detail if you'd like later. On mobile now.
>
> Adair
>
> On Mon, Nov 12, 2018, 5:10 PM Ken Hohhof 
>> Once upon a time there was just Procera.  Then there was Saisei and
>> then Preseem.  As of the recent WISPAPALOOZA it seems we also have 
>> Bequant,
>> which bills their product as a TCP proxy, which is not really what I’m
>> looking for.
>>
>>
>>
>> Can anyone relate success or horror stories with any of these, on or
>> off list?  I have at least one WISP recommending Preseem, and they seem
>> like the latest hot thing.  I am confused as to whether Sandvine/Procera 
>> is
>> still selling to the WISP market, and if so, what is their sales channel.
>> I just got off a conference call with Saisei, and everything sounded
>> reasonably good, no red flags.
>>
>>
>>
>> I could go ahead with a trial license from one of these guys, but it
>> would be good to know who is using what and how they like it.  Anybody 
>> can
>> have a good Powerpoint presentation, the question is, how does it work in
>> the real world.
>> --
>> AF mailing list
>> AF@af.afmug.com
>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>>
> --
> AF mailing list
> AF@af.afmug.com
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>
 --
>>> AF mailing list
>>> AF@af.afmug.com
>>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> Adair Winter
>> VP, Network Operations / Co-Owner
>> Amarillo Wireless | 806.316.5071
>> C: 806.231.7180
>> http://www.amarillowireless.net
>> 
>>
>>
>> --
>> AF mailing list
>> AF@af.afmug.com
>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>>
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Re: [AFMUG] bandwidth management appliance opinions

[Kurt Fankhauser]

I too have a Procera box currently (the small one that only does 1gig
aggregate) and am at the point of needing to upgrade that and Powercode is
my billing server and they are saying that the Saisei box is a lot cheaper
than Procera since its just Ubuntu running on your own hardware. They said
most of their customers that have been running Proceras are pretty much all
switching to Saisei. I am trying to figure out what to do myself. My
Procera annual license renewal comes up in December.

On Mon, Nov 12, 2018 at 11:06 PM Adair Winter 
wrote:

> We outgrew the box is why we switched. We tried to go with procera virtual
> which was procera on your own (to their spec) box but it was riddled with
> problems. A appliance the next size up with $70k and we were not ready to
> drop that kind of money on it. although I kinda wish we would have. Saisei
> has had weird UDP traffic flow issues. We've had Voip and VPN issues where
> we've had to bypass customers around the box until we rebooted. Thought it
> was fixed but it's returned again.
> Gonna give pressem a try and see what happens. If it doesn't work not sure
> what we will do. Only real option is mikrotik queues. I guess.
>
> On Mon, Nov 12, 2018 at 8:53 PM Ryan Ray  wrote:
>
>> The biggest thing we are looking for is being able to keep customer
>> experience high even while they're using their plan. Our problem now is
>> someone will be using 50Mb/s sustained on the down, and their pings go high
>> and experience is worse than it should be. Trying to get buffer bloat down,
>> being able to prioritize different traffic behind others is nice as well.
>> We will see what happens.
>>
>> On Mon, Nov 12, 2018 at 6:47 PM Ryan Ray  wrote:
>>
>>> Also testing out Preseem. Signed up at wispa, just got the boxes in the
>>> network and can't wait to see what it can do.
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Nov 12, 2018 at 6:29 PM Adair Winter <
>>> ada...@amarillowireless.net> wrote:
>>>
 Honestly, we loved procera. We are currently with Saisei but not overly
 happy.
 About to do a preseem demo.
 I can send more detail if you'd like later. On mobile now.

 Adair

 On Mon, Nov 12, 2018, 5:10 PM Ken Hohhof >>>
> Once upon a time there was just Procera.  Then there was Saisei and
> then Preseem.  As of the recent WISPAPALOOZA it seems we also have 
> Bequant,
> which bills their product as a TCP proxy, which is not really what I’m
> looking for.
>
>
>
> Can anyone relate success or horror stories with any of these, on or
> off list?  I have at least one WISP recommending Preseem, and they seem
> like the latest hot thing.  I am confused as to whether Sandvine/Procera 
> is
> still selling to the WISP market, and if so, what is their sales channel.
> I just got off a conference call with Saisei, and everything sounded
> reasonably good, no red flags.
>
>
>
> I could go ahead with a trial license from one of these guys, but it
> would be good to know who is using what and how they like it.  Anybody can
> have a good Powerpoint presentation, the question is, how does it work in
> the real world.
> --
> AF mailing list
> AF@af.afmug.com
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>
 --
 AF mailing list
 AF@af.afmug.com
 http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

>>> --
>> AF mailing list
>> AF@af.afmug.com
>> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>>
>
>
> --
>
> Adair Winter
> VP, Network Operations / Co-Owner
> Amarillo Wireless | 806.316.5071
> C: 806.231.7180
> http://www.amarillowireless.net
> 
>
>
> --
> AF mailing list
> AF@af.afmug.com
> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
>
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Re: [AFMUG] Chuck, help please.

[Jerry Head]

Okay thank you.

On 11/13/2018 9:32 AM, Chuck McCown wrote:
Well, that is certainly not universal.  That is for Canopy/UBNT 100 
Mbps POE where the 4 power wires do not carry data.  It has the test 
port so you can connect to the SM without powering it down.


In any event, we do have that on our web site.  In both outdoor and 
rack mount versions.

https://www.mccowntech.com/product/outdoor-100-mbps-ethernet-protector/

-Original Message- From: Jerry Head
Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2018 8:26 AM
To: af@af.afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Chuck, help please.

Sorry, 444-SMT

On 11/13/2018 9:19 AM, Chuck McCown wrote:
Could be many of my products.  Outdoor mount, rack mount.  GigE or 
CAT6. Not sure what DR is selling.


-Original Message- From: Jerry Head
Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2018 7:58 AM
To: af@af.afmug.com
Subject: [AFMUG] Chuck, help please.

"Universal Surge Suppressor"
I am shopping DR and they list this a one of your products but I can't
seem to locate it on your website.
Can you tell me which one of your products it corresponds to please?







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Re: [AFMUG] Chuck, help please.

[Chuck McCown]

Well, that is certainly not universal.  That is for Canopy/UBNT 100 Mbps POE 
where the 4 power wires do not carry data.  It has the test port so you can 
connect to the SM without powering it down.


In any event, we do have that on our web site.  In both outdoor and rack 
mount versions.

https://www.mccowntech.com/product/outdoor-100-mbps-ethernet-protector/

-Original Message- 
From: Jerry Head

Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2018 8:26 AM
To: af@af.afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Chuck, help please.

Sorry, 444-SMT

On 11/13/2018 9:19 AM, Chuck McCown wrote:
Could be many of my products.  Outdoor mount, rack mount.  GigE or CAT6. 
Not sure what DR is selling.


-Original Message- From: Jerry Head
Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2018 7:58 AM
To: af@af.afmug.com
Subject: [AFMUG] Chuck, help please.

"Universal Surge Suppressor"
I am shopping DR and they list this a one of your products but I can't
seem to locate it on your website.
Can you tell me which one of your products it corresponds to please?




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Re: [AFMUG] Chuck, help please.

[Jerry Head]

Sorry, 444-SMT

On 11/13/2018 9:19 AM, Chuck McCown wrote:
Could be many of my products.  Outdoor mount, rack mount.  GigE or 
CAT6. Not sure what DR is selling.


-Original Message- From: Jerry Head
Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2018 7:58 AM
To: af@af.afmug.com
Subject: [AFMUG] Chuck, help please.

"Universal Surge Suppressor"
I am shopping DR and they list this a one of your products but I can't
seem to locate it on your website.
Can you tell me which one of your products it corresponds to please?




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Re: [AFMUG] Chuck, help please.

[Jerry Head]

The model# is 444HST

On 11/13/2018 9:19 AM, Chuck McCown wrote:
Could be many of my products.  Outdoor mount, rack mount.  GigE or 
CAT6. Not sure what DR is selling.


-Original Message- From: Jerry Head
Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2018 7:58 AM
To: af@af.afmug.com
Subject: [AFMUG] Chuck, help please.

"Universal Surge Suppressor"
I am shopping DR and they list this a one of your products but I can't
seem to locate it on your website.
Can you tell me which one of your products it corresponds to please?




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AF mailing list
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http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

Re: [AFMUG] Chuck, help please.

[Chuck McCown]

Could be many of my products.  Outdoor mount, rack mount.  GigE or CAT6. 
Not sure what DR is selling.


-Original Message- 
From: Jerry Head

Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2018 7:58 AM
To: af@af.afmug.com
Subject: [AFMUG] Chuck, help please.

"Universal Surge Suppressor"
I am shopping DR and they list this a one of your products but I can't
seem to locate it on your website.
Can you tell me which one of your products it corresponds to please?

--
AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com 



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AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com

[AFMUG] Chuck, help please.

[Jerry Head]

"Universal Surge Suppressor"
I am shopping DR and they list this a one of your products but I can't 
seem to locate it on your website.

Can you tell me which one of your products it corresponds to please?

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AF mailing list
AF@af.afmug.com
http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com