[AFMUG] mail servers

[Chuck McCown via AF]

We are having trouble with mailcow.  Anything better out there.  It hangs all 
the time these days.  
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Re: [AFMUG] Underground Locating units

[Chuck McCown via AF]

I was developing some beacons based on the flushable sewer sondes.  My plan was 
to make them to be able to shot through a duct with air and if they did not 
come out, you could find them.  One of many projects around here half done...




From: Carl Peterson 
Sent: Wednesday, March 8, 2023 2:24 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Cc: Chuck McCown 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Underground Locating units

Circling back to this 
The D18 33kHz sonde worked great with the vSCAN.  Even down to 15' which was 
the deepest duct we needed to trace.  What surprised me was the 512 sewer 
sondes.  They worked amazingly well.  Not quite as accurate as the 33kHz sonde 
but no issue at all tracking them.   They are also small enough that you could 
easily repackage them into a tube to screw on the end of a rodder.  
https://prototek.net/product/ftp-8-512-hz-flushable-transmitter/


We had some issues with getting our vScan delivered on time and ended up 
renting a Ridgid Scout Sonde locator to start with.  If all I was doing was 
locating Sondes, I'd use that all day long.   vScan works pretty well too but 
for tracking Sondes the scout is nice because you can pretty much aim it 
sideways when tracking through brush or through a duct that sweeps up into a 
building.  

On Fri, Dec 30, 2022 at 10:54 AM Chuck McCown via AF  wrote:

  Very anxious to hear the results.  

  From: Carl Peterson 
  Sent: Friday, December 30, 2022 9:05 AM
  To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Underground Locating units

  I ordered a smaller metrotech D18 33kHz sonde and a vSCAN locator which says 
it supports 512 sondes (-  Sondes: 32.768kHz, 512Hz and 640Hz Sonde modes).  
I'll update with how it works with the D18 and the sewer sondes.  If we end up 
buying a longer sonde I'll do a side by side with them.  

  Thanks for everyone's input on this.  I'm sure I will wish I bought a RD7200 
at some point but hopefully this will get the job done.   

  On Thu, Dec 29, 2022 at 5:32 PM Chuck McCown via AF  wrote:

You might need a locator that matches the frequency of the flushable 
beacon.  

From: Carl Peterson 
Sent: Thursday, December 29, 2022 3:40 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Underground Locating units

Thanks Chuck.  I ordered a few flushables for shits and giggles.   We have 
a bunch of 4" ducts we need to trace ASAP.  I'll look at ordering a 12" Leica 
one or the 17" D23 if it isn't too expensive.  

On Thu, Dec 29, 2022 at 4:27 PM Chuck McCown via AF  wrote:

  The flushable beacons I have played with are pretty wide for 1.25” 
conduit.  I am sure the longer sondes will transmit a greater distance.  

  From: Carl Peterson 
  Sent: Thursday, December 29, 2022 2:42 PM
  To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Underground Locating units

  The leica duct sonde 33 (12") is $440.  It obviously isn't the same as a 
HDD sonde but I wonder if the longer antenna coil would help.  There are also 
sondes like the Metrotech D23 which is a flexible sonde: 0.9" x 17.3" (23mm x 
456mm).   

  Am I flushing money down the toilet?  Should I just buy a few $35 
flushable sondes and tie them to the end of my duct rod? 

  On Thu, Dec 29, 2022 at 2:25 PM Chuck McCown via AF  
wrote:

Those systems start at $12K on up for new.  And the sondes are pretty 
large.  Yes they would work better if you are rodding 1.25” duct or larger.  
They also will not take corners like a shorter beacon.  

From: Carl Peterson 
Sent: Thursday, December 29, 2022 8:24 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Underground Locating units

Thanks Chuck,  Do you think a 12" duct sonde might work better?  I am 
going to need to try to find an adapter to connect it to my rodder.   
https://shop.leica-geosystems.com/buy/accessories/duct-sonde-33


Steve, 
I've seen the flushable sondes and wondered why they cost $35 when the 
regular ones cost $400 to 1K+.  Can't seem to find them in 30kHz or 640hz which 
is what our existing 150R locator says it supports.  

On Wed, Dec 28, 2022 at 7:00 PM Steve Jones  
wrote:

  theres septic sondes you can use for rodding

  On Wed, Dec 28, 2022 at 3:55 PM Carl Peterson 
 wrote:

Speaking of Sondes...  I am looking for something I can put on the 
end of my conduit rodder.  Its a 5/16th Condux with 3/8 UNC male threads.  
Assuming I source a sonde / beacon first and then find an adapter? 

On Wed, Dec 28, 2022 at 3:34 PM Chuck McCown via AF 
 wrote:

  Most boring uses a sonde transmitter.  

  From: Josh Luthman 
  Sent: Wednesday, December 28, 2022 1:44 PM
  To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
  Cc: Chuck McCown 
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Underground Locating units

  The ViperMag is an 

Re: [AFMUG] Underground Locating units

[Carl Peterson]

Circling back to this
The D18 33kHz sonde worked great with the vSCAN.  Even down to 15'
which was the deepest duct we needed to trace.  What surprised me was the
512 sewer sondes.  They worked amazingly well.  Not quite as accurate as
the 33kHz sonde but no issue at all tracking them.   They are also small
enough that you could easily repackage them into a tube to screw on the end
of a rodder.
https://prototek.net/product/ftp-8-512-hz-flushable-transmitter/

We had some issues with getting our vScan delivered on time and ended up
renting a Ridgid Scout Sonde locator to start with.  If all I was doing was
locating Sondes, I'd use that all day long.   vScan works pretty well too
but for tracking Sondes the scout is nice because you can pretty much aim
it sideways when tracking through brush or through a duct that sweeps up
into a building.

On Fri, Dec 30, 2022 at 10:54 AM Chuck McCown via AF 
wrote:

> Very anxious to hear the results.
>
> *From:* Carl Peterson
> *Sent:* Friday, December 30, 2022 9:05 AM
> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Underground Locating units
>
> I ordered a smaller metrotech D18 33kHz sonde and a vSCAN locator which
> says it supports 512 sondes (*-  Sondes: 32.768kHz, 512Hz and 640Hz Sonde
> modes).  *I'll update with how it works with the D18 and the sewer
> sondes.  If we end up buying a longer sonde I'll do a side by side with
> them.
>
> Thanks for everyone's input on this.  I'm sure I will wish I bought a
> RD7200 at some point but hopefully this will get the job done.
>
> On Thu, Dec 29, 2022 at 5:32 PM Chuck McCown via AF 
> wrote:
>
>> You might need a locator that matches the frequency of the flushable
>> beacon.
>>
>> *From:* Carl Peterson
>> *Sent:* Thursday, December 29, 2022 3:40 PM
>> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Underground Locating units
>>
>> Thanks Chuck.  I ordered a few flushables for shits and giggles.   We
>> have a bunch of 4" ducts we need to trace ASAP.  I'll look at ordering a
>> 12" Leica one or the 17" D23 if it isn't too expensive.
>>
>> On Thu, Dec 29, 2022 at 4:27 PM Chuck McCown via AF 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> The flushable beacons I have played with are pretty wide for 1.25”
>>> conduit.  I am sure the longer sondes will transmit a greater distance.
>>>
>>> *From:* Carl Peterson
>>> *Sent:* Thursday, December 29, 2022 2:42 PM
>>> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
>>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Underground Locating units
>>>
>>> The leica duct sonde 33 (12") is $440.  It obviously isn't the same as a
>>> HDD sonde but I wonder if the longer antenna coil would help.  There are
>>> also sondes like the Metrotech D23 which is a flexible sonde: 0.9" x 17.3"
>>> (23mm x 456mm).
>>>
>>> Am I flushing money down the toilet?  Should I just buy a few $35
>>> flushable sondes and tie them to the end of my duct rod?
>>>
>>> On Thu, Dec 29, 2022 at 2:25 PM Chuck McCown via AF 
>>> wrote:
>>>
 Those systems start at $12K on up for new.  And the sondes are pretty
 large.  Yes they would work better if you are rodding 1.25” duct or
 larger.  They also will not take corners like a shorter beacon.

 *From:* Carl Peterson
 *Sent:* Thursday, December 29, 2022 8:24 AM
 *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
 *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Underground Locating units

 Thanks Chuck,  Do you think a 12" duct sonde might work better?  I am
 going to need to try to find an adapter to connect it to my rodder.
 https://shop.leica-geosystems.com/buy/accessories/duct-sonde-33

 Steve,
 I've seen the flushable sondes and wondered why they cost $35 when the
 regular ones cost $400 to 1K+.  Can't seem to find them in 30kHz or 640hz
 which is what our existing 150R locator says it supports.

 On Wed, Dec 28, 2022 at 7:00 PM Steve Jones 
 wrote:

> theres septic sondes you can use for rodding
>
> On Wed, Dec 28, 2022 at 3:55 PM Carl Peterson <
> cpeter...@portnetworks.com> wrote:
>
>> Speaking of Sondes...  I am looking for something I can put on the
>> end of my conduit rodder.  Its a 5/16th Condux with 3/8 UNC male threads.
>> Assuming I source a sonde / beacon first and then find an adapter?
>>
>> On Wed, Dec 28, 2022 at 3:34 PM Chuck McCown via AF 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Most boring uses a sonde transmitter.
>>>
>>> *From:* Josh Luthman
>>> *Sent:* Wednesday, December 28, 2022 1:44 PM
>>> *To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
>>> *Cc:* Chuck McCown
>>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Underground Locating units
>>>
>>> The ViperMag is an underground cable locator.  I used it for our
>>> bore attachment on the SPX25.  Metal is metal is metal.
>>>
>>> On Wed, Dec 28, 2022 at 3:38 PM Chuck McCown via AF 
>>> wrote:
>>>
 Drilling locators are a total different beast than underground
 cable locators.

 *From:* Josh Luthman

Re: [AFMUG] SFP+ cage extender

[fiberrun]

The way I see it, a one time cost of $50 per subscriber isn't that much in the grand scheme of things.

 

Having one IPv4 per subscriber means no middle boxes and things just work. There's value in that.

 

I'll happily offer IPv6 to customers if (i) they are willing to pay for it or (ii) the world changes and IPv6 starts working out of the box on consumer appliances.

 

From a purely business perspective IPv4 is better than IPv6: customers will pay for IPv4 (statics, additional IPs, etc.), nobody wants to pay for IPv6


 

 

- Jared

 

Sent: Wednesday, March 08, 2023 at 9:25 PM
From: "Trey Scarborough" 
To: af@af.afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] SFP+ cage extender


I don't see that happening any time soon they will be the last to shut off the IPV4 drain just like they were one of the first to turn on the IPV6. I think you will see a push once IT companies finally hit the learning curve for IPV6 and newer security measures start using the added features. It can already be advantageous for gaming and other protocols that perform better with out NAT.

On 3/6/2023 1:39 PM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:




But until major content providers become only IPV6, not seeing a reason to implement. 

 

 



 


From: dmmoff...@gmail.com

Sent: Monday, March 6, 2023 12:00 PM

To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group'

Cc: 'Chuck McCown'

Subject: RE: [AFMUG] SFP+ cage extender



 




IPv6 adoption is accelerating.  All the major content providers and transit providers are dual stack.

The weak link seems to be consumer routers.  I had to buy 3 that all said “IPv6” on the box to get one that actually did dual stack correctly out of the box. 


	The first one did IPv6 on the WAN interface, but didn’t distribute a V6 address to the LAN….so what good is that exactly?  No idea.
	The second one only supported the 6RD “Rapid Deployment” model of IPv6.  If you were going to pick just one mode to implement in a router why would you pick that one over dual stack?


The third one worked fine.  So 1 for 3.  And I was specifically looking for ones that said IPv6 on the package.

 

So many routers come with IPv6 disabled, broken, or only with a weird partial implementation.  If the SOHO router vendors get with the program then CGNAT will become a secondary function. Until then, yes, keep gloating Sir.

 

 

 



From: AF  On Behalf Of Chuck McCown via AF
Sent: Monday, March 06, 2023 1:41 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Cc: Chuck McCown 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] SFP+ cage extender



 




So nice to have an IP per customer and not have to use NAT...





(gloat)



 




From: Carl Peterson 



Sent: Monday, March 6, 2023 11:29 AM



To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 



Subject: Re: [AFMUG] SFP+ cage extender





 





We use Juniper for BNG on a MX204 but I'd be interested in the Netelastic route if it does IPoE BNG.  



 




On Mon, Mar 6, 2023 at 12:24 PM Mark Radabaugh  wrote:




Same.   Way less than Juniper (which we currently use but are migrating off of). 


 



Mark




 




 



On Mar 6, 2023, at 1:09 PM, Gino A. Villarini  wrote:



 





We are using NetElastic for CGNAT + BNG, happy so far 

 

 

 

 


	
		
			
			
			
			
			Gino Villarini
			Founder / President
			@GVillarini
			787.273.4143 | 
			
		
		
			
			
			
			
			
			
			
			
			
			
			
			
			
			
			
			
			
			
			
			
			
		
		
			
			Metro Office Park #18 Suite 304 Guaynabo, PR 00968
			
		
		
			
			
			
		
	



From: AF  on behalf of Sterling Jacobson 
Date: Monday, March 6, 2023 at 2:05 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] SFP+ cage extender


I bet you are right.

 

Cisco is probably more expensive than Juniper for CG-NAT would be my guess from what I’ve heard around shop.

 

 

 



From: AF  On Behalf Of dmmoff...@gmail.com
Sent: Monday, March 6, 2023 9:25 AM
To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] SFP+ cage extender



 

Sounds like we’re on a similar journey.  

 

Our new owners are a Juniper shop, but the Juniper CG-NAT solution was so expensive they went with A10 Networks for that function.  Without licenses (and I think a feature card) the Juniper MX would only do 1:1 static NAT. It was cheaper to buy an A10 appliance than to get the licenses and such for Juniper MX.

I don’t like A10.  They’re weird.  But we set them up once and never touch them again.  They’re still not cheap, probably an order of magnitude more than Mikrotik, but they’re also an order of magnitude cheaper than implementing CG-NAT on the Juniper MX.   I’d imagine Cisco will be in the same ballpark as Juniper, but I don’t know.

 

 

 

 



From: AF  On Behalf Of Sterling Jacobson
Sent: Monday, March 06, 2023 10:13 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] SFP+ cage extender



 

I don’t know 

[AFMUG] OT: Forget about 10Gb, 100Gb. Let's do 1.6 Tb

[Bill Prince]

Yeah baby. Now we're talking real speed.

https://www.nextplatform.com/2023/03/07/setting-the-stage-for-1-6t-ethernet-and-driving-800g-now/
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Re: [AFMUG] Shadenfreude

[Steve Jones]

See, I look at it the opposite. Physics may limit any new tech, but really
we havent seen any wireless advances, just wider bandwidth, higher
modulation, more subcarriers. To me, a true advancement is an improvement
without major cost. Everyone of those improvements tends to come at an SNR
cost at minimum and SNR is something we are already losing. Sure theres
improved SNR with moar power, but thats just diminishing the aggregate to
improve the minute

On Wed, Mar 8, 2023 at 10:52 AM Chuck McCown via AF  wrote:

> I am impressed at the advancements with wireless over the years.  I would
> have never expected to be able to deliver PMP 100 Mbps with any quality at
> all.  And we all know that 100 mbps will do almost everything anyone would
> ever need, still we have fiber customers wanting 1. 2.5 and 10 gig...
>
> And to think that we used to be so happy to advertise 10 Mbps on Canopy.
> That burst mode was the bomb until Netflix arrived.
>
> -Original Message-
> From: dmmoff...@gmail.com
> Sent: Wednesday, March 8, 2023 7:37 AM
> To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group'
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Shadenfreude
>
> Almost sounds like you're not serious.  Fiber really is the future.
>
> How much wireless bandwidth is there to work with?  If we kicked out all
> incumbent microwave users and made it all available for WISPs there'd be
> what, 50 GHz? More realistically 5-10GHz  that you could really use for
> the
> last mileassuming they'd allocate all of it for a WISP.   Within the
> reality of the regulatory framework we've got more like 1-2GHz available.
>
> Bandwidth of a single mode fiber is ~50 Thz.   Even the most optimistic
> estimate for wireless doesn't compare.
>
> 100Gbps ethernet on fiber uses only a tiny fraction of the possible
> bandwidth and very primitive modulation.  It's not because you couldn't do
> 1024QAM with a laser, it's just that right now we don't need to.
> Theoretically pushing Shannon-Hartley to the limits you could run 1.2
> petabits per second on a single mode fiber.  That's a million gigabits.
>
> Clearly there are badly implemented networks, but that just means a dumb
> person did it.  If you're not branching out into fiber you'll eventually
> be
> left behind.  IMO, the only debatable part is how many years that'll take.
>
> -Adam
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: AF  On Behalf Of Matt Hoppes
> Sent: Wednesday, March 08, 2023 8:57 AM
> To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group ; Jan-GAMs
> 
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Shadenfreude
>
> But... But... fiber is the future.
>
> On 3/7/23 4:29 PM, Jan-GAMs wrote:
> > Our fiber competitor is using fiber to connect to a DSL connection.
> > Those customers who left our wisp for them came back within a few days.
> >
> > On 3/6/23 12:55, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:
> >> Had our first fiber customer disconnect to go to a new WISP in the area.
> >> They said the new service was half the price of ours and they got a
> >> price lock for three years.
> >> Yeah, OK, but we will have your service on standby any time you want
> >> to reactivate it.
> >> The disconnect was Friday.  The reconnect was this morning...
> >> I know that is not music to the ears of WISP only companies, but I
> >> gotta tell you, you never get service calls with fiber.
> >> Best Regards,
> >> Chuck McCown
> >>
> >> McCown Technology Corporation
> >> 8401 N Commerce Dr
> >> Lake Point, Utah 84074
> >> 801-250-9503 Office
> >> 435-830-4306 Cell
> >> www.mccowntech.com
> >> www.microtrench.pro
> >> www.terabitnetworks.com
> >>
> >
>
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>
>
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Re: [AFMUG] Shadenfreude

[dmmoffett]

Absolutely.

To get that high performance though we're putting more processing power up
onto the tower.  Which means more wattage needed than PoE can do, so now you
need fiber and power cables up the tower.  You still might need the cat5 for
timing or management or what-not depending on the platform.  So now we're
looking at bigger conduit to carry 3x as many cables up.  Bigger power
supply and battery backup at the bottom.  New router/switch to carry the
higher capacity.  Upgrading from Canopy to the 430, 320, or 450 was
basically just swapping one thing on the tower.  Cambium450 to 450m or
similar is more or less a complete do-over.   We were talking about minimum
$50,000 per tower.  Our corporate overlords said they'd rather put that
money into fiber.  I saw no reason to argue the point.

But yeah, in the right market, someplace where fiber is still a long way off
you could do a 100% respectable job with wireless.  



-Original Message-
From: AF  On Behalf Of Chuck McCown via AF
Sent: Wednesday, March 08, 2023 11:52 AM
To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' 
Cc: Chuck McCown 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Shadenfreude

I am impressed at the advancements with wireless over the years.  I would
have never expected to be able to deliver PMP 100 Mbps with any quality at
all.  And we all know that 100 mbps will do almost everything anyone would
ever need, still we have fiber customers wanting 1. 2.5 and 10 gig...

And to think that we used to be so happy to advertise 10 Mbps on Canopy. 
That burst mode was the bomb until Netflix arrived.

-Original Message-
From: dmmoff...@gmail.com
Sent: Wednesday, March 8, 2023 7:37 AM
To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group'
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Shadenfreude

Almost sounds like you're not serious.  Fiber really is the future.

How much wireless bandwidth is there to work with?  If we kicked out all
incumbent microwave users and made it all available for WISPs there'd be
what, 50 GHz? More realistically 5-10GHz  that you could really use for the 
last mileassuming they'd allocate all of it for a WISP.   Within the 
reality of the regulatory framework we've got more like 1-2GHz available.

Bandwidth of a single mode fiber is ~50 Thz.   Even the most optimistic 
estimate for wireless doesn't compare.

100Gbps ethernet on fiber uses only a tiny fraction of the possible
bandwidth and very primitive modulation.  It's not because you couldn't do
1024QAM with a laser, it's just that right now we don't need to. 
Theoretically pushing Shannon-Hartley to the limits you could run 1.2
petabits per second on a single mode fiber.  That's a million gigabits.

Clearly there are badly implemented networks, but that just means a dumb
person did it.  If you're not branching out into fiber you'll eventually be
left behind.  IMO, the only debatable part is how many years that'll take.

-Adam


-Original Message-
From: AF  On Behalf Of Matt Hoppes
Sent: Wednesday, March 08, 2023 8:57 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group ; Jan-GAMs

Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Shadenfreude

But... But... fiber is the future.

On 3/7/23 4:29 PM, Jan-GAMs wrote:
> Our fiber competitor is using fiber to connect to a DSL connection.
> Those customers who left our wisp for them came back within a few days.
>
> On 3/6/23 12:55, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:
>> Had our first fiber customer disconnect to go to a new WISP in the area.
>> They said the new service was half the price of ours and they got a 
>> price lock for three years.
>> Yeah, OK, but we will have your service on standby any time you want 
>> to reactivate it.
>> The disconnect was Friday.  The reconnect was this morning...
>> I know that is not music to the ears of WISP only companies, but I 
>> gotta tell you, you never get service calls with fiber.
>> Best Regards,
>> Chuck McCown
>>
>> McCown Technology Corporation
>> 8401 N Commerce Dr
>> Lake Point, Utah 84074
>> 801-250-9503 Office
>> 435-830-4306 Cell
>> www.mccowntech.com
>> www.microtrench.pro
>> www.terabitnetworks.com
>>
>

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Re: [AFMUG] Shadenfreude

[Jason McKemie]

The biggest issue with wireless IMO is the continuously rising noise
floor, more so than the capacity (for now at least).  At some point it is
going to be unusable for links of any decent range - everything will need
to be microcell.  Fiber does not have this problem.

On Wed, Mar 8, 2023 at 10:52 AM Chuck McCown via AF  wrote:

> I am impressed at the advancements with wireless over the years.  I would
> have never expected to be able to deliver PMP 100 Mbps with any quality at
> all.  And we all know that 100 mbps will do almost everything anyone would
> ever need, still we have fiber customers wanting 1. 2.5 and 10 gig...
>
> And to think that we used to be so happy to advertise 10 Mbps on Canopy.
> That burst mode was the bomb until Netflix arrived.
>
> -Original Message-
> From: dmmoff...@gmail.com
> Sent: Wednesday, March 8, 2023 7:37 AM
> To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group'
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Shadenfreude
>
> Almost sounds like you're not serious.  Fiber really is the future.
>
> How much wireless bandwidth is there to work with?  If we kicked out all
> incumbent microwave users and made it all available for WISPs there'd be
> what, 50 GHz? More realistically 5-10GHz  that you could really use for
> the
> last mileassuming they'd allocate all of it for a WISP.   Within the
> reality of the regulatory framework we've got more like 1-2GHz available.
>
> Bandwidth of a single mode fiber is ~50 Thz.   Even the most optimistic
> estimate for wireless doesn't compare.
>
> 100Gbps ethernet on fiber uses only a tiny fraction of the possible
> bandwidth and very primitive modulation.  It's not because you couldn't do
> 1024QAM with a laser, it's just that right now we don't need to.
> Theoretically pushing Shannon-Hartley to the limits you could run 1.2
> petabits per second on a single mode fiber.  That's a million gigabits.
>
> Clearly there are badly implemented networks, but that just means a dumb
> person did it.  If you're not branching out into fiber you'll eventually
> be
> left behind.  IMO, the only debatable part is how many years that'll take.
>
> -Adam
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: AF  On Behalf Of Matt Hoppes
> Sent: Wednesday, March 08, 2023 8:57 AM
> To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group ; Jan-GAMs
> 
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Shadenfreude
>
> But... But... fiber is the future.
>
> On 3/7/23 4:29 PM, Jan-GAMs wrote:
> > Our fiber competitor is using fiber to connect to a DSL connection.
> > Those customers who left our wisp for them came back within a few days.
> >
> > On 3/6/23 12:55, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:
> >> Had our first fiber customer disconnect to go to a new WISP in the area.
> >> They said the new service was half the price of ours and they got a
> >> price lock for three years.
> >> Yeah, OK, but we will have your service on standby any time you want
> >> to reactivate it.
> >> The disconnect was Friday.  The reconnect was this morning...
> >> I know that is not music to the ears of WISP only companies, but I
> >> gotta tell you, you never get service calls with fiber.
> >> Best Regards,
> >> Chuck McCown
> >>
> >> McCown Technology Corporation
> >> 8401 N Commerce Dr
> >> Lake Point, Utah 84074
> >> 801-250-9503 Office
> >> 435-830-4306 Cell
> >> www.mccowntech.com
> >> www.microtrench.pro
> >> www.terabitnetworks.com
> >>
> >
>
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Re: [AFMUG] SFP+ cage extender

[Trey Scarborough]

No I was using airfiber, and SAEI.


I would be cautious of planning on having availability of Tibit moving 
forward. It's likely Ciena will lock it to using there hardware in the 
future.


On 3/6/2023 2:37 PM, Carl Peterson wrote:

Thanks Trey!  Were you also testing Siklu -> Tibit?

On Mon, Mar 6, 2023 at 2:35 PM Trey Scarborough  wrote:

Carl I am pretty sure that is the same cable I used to test a Tbit
to radio connection and I didn't have any issues. Also I know they
work in the  CRS305-1G-4S+IN.

On 3/3/2023 9:49 AM, Carl Peterson wrote:

I'm not doing liquid cooling.  See the pics I posted above.  Just
need to extend the SFP+ cage out of a Siklu radio.  The
alternative is to add another little switch but that adds
complexity to what is a simple design.  PON hanging off a Siklu
for a small apartment building.  Only thing active is the Siklu
and the "SFP".  One cyber power 48V battery backup to power the
silku.  If you add a switch, how are you powering it, where is it
mounted, etc.

On the note of adding a switch.  Has anyone used
the CRS305-1G-4S+IN?  Anyone have a contact at Mikrotiik who
could find out the SFP+ port's power budget?

On Fri, Mar 3, 2023 at 9:32 AM  wrote:

I’m curious what Carl Peterson is doing too.

The description on the linked item says it’s so you can put
your electronics into immersed liquid cooling without
exposing your optics to the liquid. Pretty esoteric stuff.

Not understanding the use case, but assuming there’s a reason
you can’t extend the fiber a few feet with a jumper and
mating sleeve, then how about use a DAC to reach another switch?

*From:* AF  *On Behalf Of *Zach
Underwood
*Sent:* Friday, March 03, 2023 9:58 AM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] SFP+ cage extender

I am curious what the application is that a longer cable
would not address? I have never heard of such a device.

On Fri, Mar 3, 2023 at 9:56 AM Carl Peterson
 wrote:

I have an application where I need to extend a SFP+ cage
a foot or two but need 3.5W peak and 2.7W
continuous power.  The existing device supports the power
but the only SFP+ cage extender I can find is only rated
at 2.5W.  Can you passively just extend the cage pins or
is this something that requires electronics?  Anyone know
of a higher power SFP extension cable?


https://www.sfpcables.com/sfp-to-sfp-cage-with-3m-flat-cable-in-nylon-jacket-20cm-and-55cm-length-3256-5454

-- 


Carl Peterson

*PORT NETWORKS*

401 E Pratt St, Ste 2553

Baltimore, MD 21202

(410) 637-3707

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-- 


Zach Underwood (RHCE,RHCSA,RHCT,UACA)

My website 

advance-networking.com 

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Carl Peterson

*PORT NETWORKS*

401 E Pratt St, Ste 2553

Baltimore, MD 21202

(410) 637-3707


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*PORT NETWORKS*

401 E Pratt St, Ste 2553

Baltimore, MD 21202

(410) 637-3707

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Re: [AFMUG] Shadenfreude

[Chuck McCown via AF]

I am impressed at the advancements with wireless over the years.  I would 
have never expected to be able to deliver PMP 100 Mbps with any quality at 
all.  And we all know that 100 mbps will do almost everything anyone would 
ever need, still we have fiber customers wanting 1. 2.5 and 10 gig...


And to think that we used to be so happy to advertise 10 Mbps on Canopy. 
That burst mode was the bomb until Netflix arrived.


-Original Message- 
From: dmmoff...@gmail.com

Sent: Wednesday, March 8, 2023 7:37 AM
To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group'
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Shadenfreude

Almost sounds like you're not serious.  Fiber really is the future.

How much wireless bandwidth is there to work with?  If we kicked out all 
incumbent microwave users and made it all available for WISPs there'd be 
what, 50 GHz? More realistically 5-10GHz  that you could really use for the 
last mileassuming they'd allocate all of it for a WISP.   Within the 
reality of the regulatory framework we've got more like 1-2GHz available.


Bandwidth of a single mode fiber is ~50 Thz.   Even the most optimistic 
estimate for wireless doesn't compare.


100Gbps ethernet on fiber uses only a tiny fraction of the possible 
bandwidth and very primitive modulation.  It's not because you couldn't do 
1024QAM with a laser, it's just that right now we don't need to. 
Theoretically pushing Shannon-Hartley to the limits you could run 1.2 
petabits per second on a single mode fiber.  That's a million gigabits.


Clearly there are badly implemented networks, but that just means a dumb 
person did it.  If you're not branching out into fiber you'll eventually be 
left behind.  IMO, the only debatable part is how many years that'll take.


-Adam


-Original Message-
From: AF  On Behalf Of Matt Hoppes
Sent: Wednesday, March 08, 2023 8:57 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group ; Jan-GAMs 


Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Shadenfreude

But... But... fiber is the future.

On 3/7/23 4:29 PM, Jan-GAMs wrote:

Our fiber competitor is using fiber to connect to a DSL connection.
Those customers who left our wisp for them came back within a few days.

On 3/6/23 12:55, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:

Had our first fiber customer disconnect to go to a new WISP in the area.
They said the new service was half the price of ours and they got a
price lock for three years.
Yeah, OK, but we will have your service on standby any time you want
to reactivate it.
The disconnect was Friday.  The reconnect was this morning...
I know that is not music to the ears of WISP only companies, but I
gotta tell you, you never get service calls with fiber.
Best Regards,
Chuck McCown

McCown Technology Corporation
8401 N Commerce Dr
Lake Point, Utah 84074
801-250-9503 Office
435-830-4306 Cell
www.mccowntech.com
www.microtrench.pro
www.terabitnetworks.com





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Re: [AFMUG] Shadenfreude

[dmmoffett]

Almost sounds like you're not serious.  Fiber really is the future.

How much wireless bandwidth is there to work with?  If we kicked out all 
incumbent microwave users and made it all available for WISPs there'd be what, 
50 GHz? More realistically 5-10GHz  that you could really use for the last 
mileassuming they'd allocate all of it for a WISP.   Within the reality of 
the regulatory framework we've got more like 1-2GHz available.

Bandwidth of a single mode fiber is ~50 Thz.   Even the most optimistic 
estimate for wireless doesn't compare.

100Gbps ethernet on fiber uses only a tiny fraction of the possible bandwidth 
and very primitive modulation.  It's not because you couldn't do 1024QAM with a 
laser, it's just that right now we don't need to.  Theoretically pushing 
Shannon-Hartley to the limits you could run 1.2 petabits per second on a single 
mode fiber.  That's a million gigabits. 

Clearly there are badly implemented networks, but that just means a dumb person 
did it.  If you're not branching out into fiber you'll eventually be left 
behind.  IMO, the only debatable part is how many years that'll take. 

-Adam


-Original Message-
From: AF  On Behalf Of Matt Hoppes
Sent: Wednesday, March 08, 2023 8:57 AM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group ; Jan-GAMs 

Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Shadenfreude

But... But... fiber is the future.

On 3/7/23 4:29 PM, Jan-GAMs wrote:
> Our fiber competitor is using fiber to connect to a DSL connection.  
> Those customers who left our wisp for them came back within a few days.
> 
> On 3/6/23 12:55, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:
>> Had our first fiber customer disconnect to go to a new WISP in the area.
>> They said the new service was half the price of ours and they got a 
>> price lock for three years.
>> Yeah, OK, but we will have your service on standby any time you want 
>> to reactivate it.
>> The disconnect was Friday.  The reconnect was this morning...
>> I know that is not music to the ears of WISP only companies, but I 
>> gotta tell you, you never get service calls with fiber.
>> Best Regards,
>> Chuck McCown
>>
>> McCown Technology Corporation
>> 8401 N Commerce Dr
>> Lake Point, Utah 84074
>> 801-250-9503 Office
>> 435-830-4306 Cell
>> www.mccowntech.com
>> www.microtrench.pro
>> www.terabitnetworks.com
>>
> 

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Re: [AFMUG] Shadenfreude

[Steve Jones]

I cringe when i have these people approach me. So very certain of the easy
money. not aware of the market saturation. Very much not aware of the time
commitment. After all, WiFi just works.

On Wed, Mar 8, 2023 at 8:16 AM Matt Hoppes <
mattli...@rivervalleyinternet.net> wrote:

> I'm amazed how many folks I've seen over the years think running a WISP
> was so easy a caveman could do it and I had to sit them down and talk
> them out of it for their good and my good.
>
> On 3/7/23 6:06 PM, Chuck McCown wrote:
> > Well everybuddy knows that  you can't compete with fiber, right?!
> >
> > (this guy (the WISP) is a coder/IT guy that decided becoming a WISP is
> > easy. Heavy advertising as FOTA.  I think he is learning that pesky RF
> > stuff might indeed be important)
> >
> > -Original Message- From: Matt Hoppes
> > Sent: Tuesday, March 7, 2023 1:27 PM
> > To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
> > Cc: Chuck McCown
> > Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Shadenfreude
> >
> > Why did they come back?  A properly running WISP should be as stable as
> > a fiber connection.
> >
> > We rarely get service calls on wireless -- usually it's something
> > related to the customer's router or interference they have caused
> > that doesn't change with fiber.
> >
> > On 3/6/23 3:55 PM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:
> >> Had our first fiber customer disconnect to go to a new WISP in the area.
> >> They said the new service was half the price of ours and they got a
> >> price lock for three years.
> >> Yeah, OK, but we will have your service on standby any time you want
> >> to reactivate it.
> >> The disconnect was Friday.  The reconnect was this morning...
> >> I know that is not music to the ears of WISP only companies, but I
> >> gotta tell you, you never get service calls with fiber.
> >> Best Regards,
> >> Chuck McCown
> >>
> >> McCown Technology Corporation
> >> 8401 N Commerce Dr
> >> Lake Point, Utah 84074
> >> 801-250-9503 Office
> >> 435-830-4306 Cell
> >> www.mccowntech.com
> >> www.microtrench.pro
> >> www.terabitnetworks.com
> >>
>
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Re: [AFMUG] Shadenfreude

[dmmoffett]

That’s pretty amazing.  

 

From: AF  On Behalf Of Jan-GAMs
Sent: Tuesday, March 07, 2023 4:29 PM
To: af@af.afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Shadenfreude

 

Our fiber competitor is using fiber to connect to a DSL connection.  Those 
customers who left our wisp for them came back within a few days.

On 3/6/23 12:55, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:

Had our first fiber customer disconnect to go to a new WISP in the area.  

They said the new service was half the price of ours and they got a price lock 
for three years. 

 

Yeah, OK, but we will have your service on standby any time you want to 
reactivate it.  

 

The disconnect was Friday.  The reconnect was this morning...

 

I know that is not music to the ears of WISP only companies, but I gotta tell 
you, you never get service calls with fiber.

 

 

Best Regards,
Chuck McCown

McCown Technology Corporation 
8401 N Commerce Dr
Lake Point, Utah 84074
801-250-9503 Office
435-830-4306 Cell
www.mccowntech.com  
www.microtrench.pro  
www.terabitnetworks.com  





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Re: [AFMUG] Shadenfreude

[Matt Hoppes]

I'm amazed how many folks I've seen over the years think running a WISP 
was so easy a caveman could do it and I had to sit them down and talk 
them out of it for their good and my good.


On 3/7/23 6:06 PM, Chuck McCown wrote:

Well everybuddy knows that  you can't compete with fiber, right?!

(this guy (the WISP) is a coder/IT guy that decided becoming a WISP is 
easy. Heavy advertising as FOTA.  I think he is learning that pesky RF 
stuff might indeed be important)


-Original Message- From: Matt Hoppes
Sent: Tuesday, March 7, 2023 1:27 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group
Cc: Chuck McCown
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Shadenfreude

Why did they come back?  A properly running WISP should be as stable as
a fiber connection.

We rarely get service calls on wireless -- usually it's something
related to the customer's router or interference they have caused
that doesn't change with fiber.

On 3/6/23 3:55 PM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:

Had our first fiber customer disconnect to go to a new WISP in the area.
They said the new service was half the price of ours and they got a 
price lock for three years.
Yeah, OK, but we will have your service on standby any time you want 
to reactivate it.

The disconnect was Friday.  The reconnect was this morning...
I know that is not music to the ears of WISP only companies, but I 
gotta tell you, you never get service calls with fiber.

Best Regards,
Chuck McCown

McCown Technology Corporation
8401 N Commerce Dr
Lake Point, Utah 84074
801-250-9503 Office
435-830-4306 Cell
www.mccowntech.com
www.microtrench.pro
www.terabitnetworks.com



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Re: [AFMUG] Shadenfreude

[Matt Hoppes]

But... But... fiber is the future.

On 3/7/23 4:29 PM, Jan-GAMs wrote:
Our fiber competitor is using fiber to connect to a DSL connection.  
Those customers who left our wisp for them came back within a few days.


On 3/6/23 12:55, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:

Had our first fiber customer disconnect to go to a new WISP in the area.
They said the new service was half the price of ours and they got a 
price lock for three years.
Yeah, OK, but we will have your service on standby any time you want 
to reactivate it.

The disconnect was Friday.  The reconnect was this morning...
I know that is not music to the ears of WISP only companies, but I 
gotta tell you, you never get service calls with fiber.

Best Regards,
Chuck McCown

McCown Technology Corporation
8401 N Commerce Dr
Lake Point, Utah 84074
801-250-9503 Office
435-830-4306 Cell
www.mccowntech.com
www.microtrench.pro
www.terabitnetworks.com





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Re: [AFMUG] Shadenfreude

[Matt Hoppes]

I mean this is true... "new wisp" doesn't mean a quality new WISP.

On 3/7/23 4:06 PM, dmmoff...@gmail.com wrote:

Well he did say "new wisp"
Maybe they put a DD-WRT router in Tupperware on the roof with a Pringles can
yagi.
Or they think it's smart to run wifi with a WDS mesh.  Every customer is a
POP and grows my networkso easy!
Or they said "up to 200Mb" and actually delivered 5Mb
Or the whole thing runs on a cable modem in his mom's basement

or any number of other dumb ideas people thought were smart when they
too were a "new wisp".
I bet we can all think up a huge list of dumb things we've seen, heard, or
maybe done ourselves.




-Original Message-
From: AF  On Behalf Of Matt Hoppes
Sent: Tuesday, March 07, 2023 3:27 PM
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Shadenfreude

Why did they come back?  A properly running WISP should be as stable as a
fiber connection.

We rarely get service calls on wireless -- usually it's something related to
the customer's router or interference they have caused
that doesn't change with fiber.

On 3/6/23 3:55 PM, Chuck McCown via AF wrote:

Had our first fiber customer disconnect to go to a new WISP in the area.
They said the new service was half the price of ours and they got a
price lock for three years.
Yeah, OK, but we will have your service on standby any time you want
to reactivate it.
The disconnect was Friday.  The reconnect was this morning...
I know that is not music to the ears of WISP only companies, but I
gotta tell you, you never get service calls with fiber.
Best Regards,
Chuck McCown

McCown Technology Corporation
8401 N Commerce Dr
Lake Point, Utah 84074
801-250-9503 Office
435-830-4306 Cell
www.mccowntech.com
www.microtrench.pro
www.terabitnetworks.com



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