Re: [AFMUG] optical TX power levels

2024-01-26 Thread dmmoffett 
UmmI think I need to clarify that I did not intend any double entendre
with that final comment.

I was recalling back to a training session where we were to test attenuation
on a connector before and after cleaning it.  One of my colleagues licked
his finger and wiped the ferrule with it.  He got the lowest attenuation
value in the class. He bottomed out the reading on the meter at 0.0dB.  Not
recommended though.  Water erodes the surface of glass, and bacteria from
your mouth might grow on it too.  It was just hilarious that it worked that
well.  I was honestly thinking it's too bad you can't lick inside the LC
socket on the transceiver, and not trying to make any sex joke.  I am too
old and too bald to talk like that.

-Adam


-Original Message-
From: dmmoff...@gmail.com  
Sent: Friday, January 26, 2024 2:11 PM
To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' 
Subject: RE: [AFMUG] optical TX power levels

Personally, I'd have no objection to LACP on 4x25G links if that's what gets
the job done.   I think you should be able to configure the Arista that way
and it'll just show up as 4 sub-interfaces like et1/1, et1/2, et1/3, et1/4.

With reflectance -20 I'd still go stab all the connectors with a 1-click
cleaner before I look for any issue more complicated than that.
Combo pack on Amazon for $18.99 has both ferrule sizes: https://t.ly/bHMfU
They're one-click, but they're so cheap don't be afraid to double-tap or
triple-tap just to be sure you got it.

At -20 reflectance there's junk on the ferrule.  You'd get an improvement
just from licking it.  Hard to get your tongue inside the female port
though.

-Adam


-Original Message-
From: AF  On Behalf Of fiber...@mail.com
Sent: Friday, January 26, 2024 7:04 AM
To: af@af.afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] optical TX power levels

On Friday, January 26, 2024 Chuck McCown wrote:
> Could he bond dwm multiples at lower rates?
  Yes. Needs a muxponder or do a breakout at both ends to do it
transparently. Just bonding the links is obviously also an option.

On Tuesday, January 23, 2024 Zach Underwood wrote:
> My sample size is small due to the optices costing $4k each
  My suggestion is that you immediately change suppliers at prices like
that.

  FYI, I never got the original post to the list. Is the list somehow
broken? It's been awfully quiet lately in either case.


- Jared


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Re: [AFMUG] optical TX power levels

2024-01-26 Thread dmmoffett 
Personally, I'd have no objection to LACP on 4x25G links if that's what gets
the job done.   I think you should be able to configure the Arista that way
and it'll just show up as 4 sub-interfaces like et1/1, et1/2, et1/3, et1/4.

With reflectance -20 I'd still go stab all the connectors with a 1-click
cleaner before I look for any issue more complicated than that.
Combo pack on Amazon for $18.99 has both ferrule sizes: https://t.ly/bHMfU
They're one-click, but they're so cheap don't be afraid to double-tap or
triple-tap just to be sure you got it.

At -20 reflectance there's junk on the ferrule.  You'd get an improvement
just from licking it.  Hard to get your tongue inside the female port
though.

-Adam


-Original Message-
From: AF  On Behalf Of fiber...@mail.com
Sent: Friday, January 26, 2024 7:04 AM
To: af@af.afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] optical TX power levels

On Friday, January 26, 2024 Chuck McCown wrote:
> Could he bond dwm multiples at lower rates?
  Yes. Needs a muxponder or do a breakout at both ends to do it
transparently. Just bonding the links is obviously also an option.

On Tuesday, January 23, 2024 Zach Underwood wrote:
> My sample size is small due to the optices costing $4k each
  My suggestion is that you immediately change suppliers at prices like
that.

  FYI, I never got the original post to the list. Is the list somehow
broken? It's been awfully quiet lately in either case.


- Jared


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http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com


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Re: [AFMUG] optical TX power levels

2024-01-26 Thread Trey Scarborough 

Depends on your definition or "Low-Cost"...


Ufispace S9510-28DC is a well priced switch that can do 400G Openzr.

Juniper ACX7100, but you will need to buy there optics or they charge 
you a license fee for using Openzr.


Nokia 7250 IXR-e2


Yes they should work with just about any passive system. They supposedly 
work on 50ghz channels, but Ive never tried, and I no it limits your 
speeds down to 100 or 200g. I have used it with 75ghz and 100ghz 
passive  systems. Most have around a 28db link budget so probably a 
little better than any 80k 10G solutions you are currently using. Also 
its a coherent signal so you don't have to worry about dispersion.




On 1/26/24 8:17 AM, Mike Hammett wrote:

What are some low-cost switches that support the 400G OpenZR optics?

Can you get 400G OpenZR optics in a passive mux-friendly channel plan?



-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 





*From: *"Trey Scarborough" 
*To: *af@af.afmug.com
*Sent: *Thursday, January 25, 2024 5:00:58 PM
*Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] optical TX power levels

Ive done a lot of these 100G 80k links and its not likely dispersion 
causing your problem. Its more likely the opposite. If you have 
segments of NZ fiber "Non-zero dispersion-shifted fiber" you can have 
issues. After looking at your OTDR it looks to be a mix of different 
fiber types thats how you get the negative loss splices. If it is a 
mix of NZ and smf28 fiber your probably not going to be able to get it 
to work. The NZ fiber causes issues with the 1200-1300 signals on 
those optics. I have had spans of 50k that 80k optics would not work 
on due to this. I would have them run an OTDR at 1310 and see what it 
shows you are likely to get a very different looking result. If that's 
the case there aren't too many good options. Your best is if your 
switch has 400g ports get some OpenZR 400G optics and use them. 
Surprisingly that aren't incredibly more expensive than the 100G 80ks.


I would have the fiber provider give you a 1310 OTDR and also request 
fiber type information for the span. We build these things all the 
time so if you need some help feel free to email me and I can see 
about finding a solution that will work for you.


On 1/24/24 6:40 PM, Zach Underwood wrote:

Ok we got the report back from the fiber supplier. This is new to
me so anyone can offer insight into it?

PDF

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1KeIuWHFsiKZHxcmpPiY8PX_-PABl55Sz/view?usp=sharing


On Wed, Jan 24, 2024 at 6:00 PM Daniel Pautz via AF
mailto:af@af.afmug.com>> wrote:

Dispersion compensation module -
https://www.fs.com/products/65783.html

*From:*AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com>> *On Behalf Of *Ken Hohhof
*Sent:* Wednesday, January 24, 2024 3:53 PM
*To:* 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' mailto:af@af.afmug.com>>
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] optical TX power levels

I spent a few minutes searching on the term DCM and came up
with “chirped fiber Bragg grating”.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiber_Bragg_grating

OK, I’m out of my depth now.

*From:*AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com>> *On Behalf Of *Daniel Pautz
via AF
*Sent:* Wednesday, January 24, 2024 4:40 PM
*To:* AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group mailto:af@af.afmug.com>>
*Cc:* Daniel Pautz mailto:d...@webnx.com>>
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] optical TX power levels

Perhaps pick up a used cheap DCM and see if it helps, 
adjustable  preferred if not as close to the fiber distance.  
Our newest 100G dwdm build (dozen 100G optics) very much
needed a DCM on it.

*From:*AF mailto:af-boun...@af.afmug.com>> *On Behalf Of *Chuck McCown
via AF
*Sent:* Wednesday, January 24, 2024 3:36 PM
*To:* 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' mailto:af@af.afmug.com>>
*Cc:* ch...@go-mtc.com 
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] optical TX power levels

Gotta think of the Fourier series of the pulse.  Yes group
velocities or group delay of the whole enchalada.  It is all
kinda the same thing.  They were doing some kind of soliton
fiber development.  Haven’t heard much for some time about
that.  No idea how frequency pure/coherent the tx is.  I
imagine phase coherency is a

Re: [AFMUG] optical TX power levels

2024-01-26 Thread Mike Hammett 
What are some low-cost switches that support the 400G OpenZR optics? 


Can you get 400G OpenZR optics in a passive mux-friendly channel plan? 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 




- Original Message -

From: "Trey Scarborough"  
To: af@af.afmug.com 
Sent: Thursday, January 25, 2024 5:00:58 PM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] optical TX power levels 


Ive done a lot of these 100G 80k links and its not likely dispersion causing 
your problem. Its more likely the opposite. If you have segments of NZ fiber 
"Non-zero dispersion-shifted fiber" you can have issues. After looking at your 
OTDR it looks to be a mix of different fiber types thats how you get the 
negative loss splices. If it is a mix of NZ and smf28 fiber your probably not 
going to be able to get it to work. The NZ fiber causes issues with the 
1200-1300 signals on those optics. I have had spans of 50k that 80k optics 
would not work on due to this. I would have them run an OTDR at 1310 and see 
what it shows you are likely to get a very different looking result. If that's 
the case there aren't too many good options. Your best is if your switch has 
400g ports get some OpenZR 400G optics and use them. Surprisingly that aren't 
incredibly more expensive than the 100G 80ks. 

I would have the fiber provider give you a 1310 OTDR and also request fiber 
type information for the span. We build these things all the time so if you 
need some help feel free to email me and I can see about finding a solution 
that will work for you. 


On 1/24/24 6:40 PM, Zach Underwood wrote: 



Ok we got the report back from the fiber supplier. This is new to me so anyone 
can offer insight into it? 


PDF 
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1KeIuWHFsiKZHxcmpPiY8PX_-PABl55Sz/view?usp=sharing
 


On Wed, Jan 24, 2024 at 6:00 PM Daniel Pautz via AF < af@af.afmug.com > wrote: 






Dispersion compensation module - https://www.fs.com/products/65783.html 



From: AF < af-boun...@af.afmug.com > On Behalf Of Ken Hohhof 
Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2024 3:53 PM 
To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' < af@af.afmug.com > 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] optical TX power levels 

I spent a few minutes searching on the term DCM and came up with “chirped fiber 
Bragg grating”. 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiber_Bragg_grating 

OK, I’m out of my depth now. 




From: AF < af-boun...@af.afmug.com > On Behalf Of Daniel Pautz via AF 
Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2024 4:40 PM 
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group < af@af.afmug.com > 
Cc: Daniel Pautz < d...@webnx.com > 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] optical TX power levels 

Perhaps pick up a used cheap DCM and see if it helps, adjustable preferred if 
not as close to the fiber distance. Our newest 100G dwdm build (dozen 100G 
optics) very much needed a DCM on it. 



From: AF < af-boun...@af.afmug.com > On Behalf Of Chuck McCown via AF 
Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2024 3:36 PM 
To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' < af@af.afmug.com > 
Cc: ch...@go-mtc.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] optical TX power levels 




Gotta think of the Fourier series of the pulse. Yes group velocities or group 
delay of the whole enchalada. It is all kinda the same thing. They were doing 
some kind of soliton fiber development. Haven’t heard much for some time about 
that. No idea how frequency pure/coherent the tx is. I imagine phase coherency 
is a big deal. 










From: Ken Hohhof 

Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2024 4:12 PM 

To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' 

Subject: Re: [AFMUG] optical TX power levels 



Looks like different wavelengths have different group velocities, so 
compensation is possible (but probably not cheap?). 

Is this because the transmitter doesn’t generate literally a single wavelength? 
Or is this a WDM issue? Chuck says the pulses get smeared out in time, that 
sounds like the first one. 



From: AF < af-boun...@af.afmug.com > On Behalf Of Chuck McCown via AF 
Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2024 3:56 PM 
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group < af@af.afmug.com > 
Cc: ch...@go-mtc.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] optical TX power levels 




Yeah, the pulses tend to get smeared out in time if there is too much 
dispersion. Similar to trying to use too high level of QAM with SNR issues. 




From: Josh Luthman 



Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2024 12:26 PM 

To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group 

Subject: Re: [AFMUG] optical TX power levels 




Even if the RX level is good? 

> rx was within 0.3dBm on all 4 lanes on both sides 




On Wed, Jan 24, 2024 at 1:22 PM Daniel Pautz via AF < af@af.afmug.com > wrote: 





Yeah makes me think the two paths have different loss. We have had that on 
mirrored paths, or even single paths with crappy splices on one of the strands. 



From: AF < af-boun...@af.afmug.com > On Behalf Of Chuck McCown via AF 
Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2024 11:12 AM 
To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group < af@af.afmug.com > 
Cc: ch...@go-mtc.com 
Subject: Re:

Re: [AFMUG] optical TX power levels

2024-01-26 Thread Trey Scarborough 
you can bond 4x25g dwdm optics, but you would need amps and filters and 
eveything it would probably come out to more than a couple openzr400G 
optics. Most are good to 120k bare fiber. If you don't have 400g ports 
you can always use a 4x100 muxponder.



4k for 100g 80k optics isn't a bad price unless your buying 100s of them.

On 1/26/2024 6:03 AM, fiber...@mail.com wrote:

On Friday, January 26, 2024 Chuck McCown wrote:

Could he bond dwm multiples at lower rates?

   Yes. Needs a muxponder or do a breakout at both ends to do it transparently. 
Just bonding the links is obviously also an option.

On Tuesday, January 23, 2024 Zach Underwood wrote:

My sample size is small due to the optices costing $4k each

   My suggestion is that you immediately change suppliers at prices like that.

   FYI, I never got the original post to the list. Is the list somehow broken? 
It's been awfully quiet lately in either case.


- Jared




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Re: [AFMUG] optical TX power levels

2024-01-26 Thread Zach Underwood 
Jared, do you have another vendor for 100gb 80km optics other than fs.com
and what does the price point look like?

I sent over the notes to the fiber provider yesterday, still waiting to
hear back.

On Fri, Jan 26, 2024 at 7:05 AM  wrote:

> On Friday, January 26, 2024 Chuck McCown wrote:
> > Could he bond dwm multiples at lower rates?
>   Yes. Needs a muxponder or do a breakout at both ends to do it
> transparently. Just bonding the links is obviously also an option.
>
> On Tuesday, January 23, 2024 Zach Underwood wrote:
> > My sample size is small due to the optices costing $4k each
>   My suggestion is that you immediately change suppliers at prices like
> that.
>
>   FYI, I never got the original post to the list. Is the list somehow
> broken? It's been awfully quiet lately in either case.
>
>
> - Jared
>
>
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> AF mailing list
> AF@af.afmug.com
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>


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advance-networking.com
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Re: [AFMUG] optical TX power levels

2024-01-26 Thread fiberrun 
On Friday, January 26, 2024 Chuck McCown wrote:
> Could he bond dwm multiples at lower rates?
  Yes. Needs a muxponder or do a breakout at both ends to do it transparently. 
Just bonding the links is obviously also an option.

On Tuesday, January 23, 2024 Zach Underwood wrote:
> My sample size is small due to the optices costing $4k each
  My suggestion is that you immediately change suppliers at prices like that.

  FYI, I never got the original post to the list. Is the list somehow broken? 
It's been awfully quiet lately in either case.


- Jared


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