Re: [AFMUG] CALEA and WiFi
If I’m the VoIP provider, I can easily record conversations. And I would expect LE to come with a phone number not an IP address. If it’s OTT VoIP, how likely is it to be going over public WiFi at a park? I guess that’s possible. But again, wouldn’t they start with a phone number and contact the VoIP provider not the WiFi provider? If someone is using a cell extender or WiFi calling, those go over a VPN which I assume is encrypted. I wonder what companies like Comcast do with their cable WiFi network where any Comcast customer can connect off any other Comcast customer’s WiFi. Do you get a unique IPv6 or CGNAT IP address that traces to your Comcast userid and can be tracked to you? Or do the police bust down the door of the person whose WiFi you were using? From: AF On Behalf Of Forrest Christian (List Account) Sent: Tuesday, March 19, 2024 4:49 AM To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group Subject: Re: [AFMUG] CALEA and WiFi I see CALEA as a holdover from those days when most of the traffic on the internet was unecrypted. Law enforcement wanted to be able to wiretap the internet just like they could wiretap POTS. Nowadays, I'm not sure what law enforcement could actually do with the captured data. What an isp has access to is largely encrypted over the wire. I guess some data might be useful but I'm guessing that law enforcement has learned that looking at a capture of customer data isn't as useful as they thought it would be. About the only thing I can think of right this second which might be at least frequently unencrypted anymore is VoIP and/or DNS depending on your configuration. But if I was carrying on criminal activities across the net I'd probably be looking at ways to encrypt everything which isn't hard to do. On Mon, Mar 18, 2024, 4:17 PM Mark Radabaugh mailto:m...@amplex.net> > wrote: While CALEA is still on the books it doesn’t seem to be of much interest to LEA. No - you do not have to be able to identify the user. If LEA can identify a specific end user for you out of the WiFi, then yes, they could ask for you to monitor it but keep in mind that CALEA isn’t meant for historical data. It’s meant to be real-time capture once they have identified a particular person of interest (well, a specific phone number, IP address, etc.). Every year I get a phone call from the FBI verifying our contact information and how to get hold of us if they need something. I point out that we file our CALEA documents and ask why they are calling - and they say ‘oh, we don’t use that’. Uh, got it. But the FCC still thinks it’s important and you best follow the rules and file it anyway. Local and State LEA has never heard of CALEA. It’s just one more bureaucracy on autopilot that has outlived it’s usefulness. Mark On Mar 18, 2024, at 6:29 AM, dmmoff...@gmail.com <mailto:dmmoff...@gmail.com> wrote: CALEA hasn’t been on my radar much, so this is probably an old topic, but it’s one I don’t know much about. If you provide WiFi in a public space how do you handle compliance? We have parks, airports, and other public spaces with managed WiFi. There are also MDU’s with WiFi in a public area like a courtyard, lounge, lobby, etc. My understanding is you have to be able to capture traffic if you’re ordered to do so. Do you also have to be able to identify the individual? If they ever asked me to capture all traffic from the park WiFi….sure no problem. If they gave me a particular IP, port, and time, and they wanted me to start capturing traffic AND identify who it was, then I would only be able to tell them it was someone at the park. At best I could give them a MAC address and hostname. If I have to identify the customer that’s easy: the municipal parks department, but I’m guessing that’s not what they will want to know. Will this stuff get us in trouble? -Adam -- AF mailing list AF@af.afmug.com <mailto:AF@af.afmug.com> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com -- AF mailing list AF@af.afmug.com <mailto:AF@af.afmug.com> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com -- AF mailing list AF@af.afmug.com http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
Re: [AFMUG] CALEA and WiFi
It's not about logic or feasibility, it's about the government needing to feel important. Bureaucracy on autopilot. I had the FBI office call me asking about an IP and they simply didn't understand NAT or SSL. On Tue, Mar 19, 2024 at 5:50 AM Forrest Christian (List Account) < li...@packetflux.com> wrote: > I see CALEA as a holdover from those days when most of the traffic on the > internet was unecrypted. Law enforcement wanted to be able to wiretap the > internet just like they could wiretap POTS. > > Nowadays, I'm not sure what law enforcement could actually do with the > captured data. What an isp has access to is largely encrypted over the > wire. I guess some data might be useful but I'm guessing that law > enforcement has learned that looking at a capture of customer data isn't as > useful as they thought it would be. > > About the only thing I can think of right this second which might be at > least frequently unencrypted anymore is VoIP and/or DNS depending on your > configuration. But if I was carrying on criminal activities across the > net I'd probably be looking at ways to encrypt everything which isn't hard > to do. > > On Mon, Mar 18, 2024, 4:17 PM Mark Radabaugh wrote: > >> While CALEA is still on the books it doesn’t seem to be of much interest >> to LEA. >> >> No - you do not have to be able to identify the user. If LEA can >> identify a specific end user for you out of the WiFi, then yes, they could >> ask for you to monitor it but keep in mind that CALEA isn’t meant for >> historical data. It’s meant to be real-time capture once they have >> identified a particular person of interest (well, a specific phone number, >> IP address, etc.). >> >> Every year I get a phone call from the FBI verifying our contact >> information and how to get hold of us if they need something. I point out >> that we file our CALEA documents and ask why they are calling - and they >> say ‘oh, we don’t use that’. Uh, got it. But the FCC still thinks it’s >> important and you best follow the rules and file it anyway. Local and >> State LEA has never heard of CALEA. It’s just one more bureaucracy on >> autopilot that has outlived it’s usefulness. >> >> Mark >> >> >> On Mar 18, 2024, at 6:29 AM, dmmoff...@gmail.com wrote: >> >> CALEA hasn’t been on my radar much, so this is probably an old topic, but >> it’s one I don’t know much about. >> >> If you provide WiFi in a public space how do you handle compliance? We >> have parks, airports, and other public spaces with managed WiFi. There are >> also MDU’s with WiFi in a public area like a courtyard, lounge, lobby, etc. >> >> My understanding is you have to be able to capture traffic if you’re >> ordered to do so. Do you also have to be able to identify the individual? >> >> If they ever asked me to capture all traffic from the park WiFi….sure no >> problem. If they gave me a particular IP, port, and time, and they wanted >> me to start capturing traffic AND identify who it was, then I would only be >> able to tell them it was someone at the park. At *best* I could give >> them a MAC address and hostname. If I have to identify the *customer* >> that’s easy: the municipal parks department, but I’m guessing that’s not >> what they will want to know. >> >> Will this stuff get us in trouble? >> >> -Adam >> >> -- >> AF mailing list >> AF@af.afmug.com >> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com >> >> >> -- >> AF mailing list >> AF@af.afmug.com >> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com >> > -- > AF mailing list > AF@af.afmug.com > http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com > -- AF mailing list AF@af.afmug.com http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
Re: [AFMUG] CALEA and WiFi
I see CALEA as a holdover from those days when most of the traffic on the internet was unecrypted. Law enforcement wanted to be able to wiretap the internet just like they could wiretap POTS. Nowadays, I'm not sure what law enforcement could actually do with the captured data. What an isp has access to is largely encrypted over the wire. I guess some data might be useful but I'm guessing that law enforcement has learned that looking at a capture of customer data isn't as useful as they thought it would be. About the only thing I can think of right this second which might be at least frequently unencrypted anymore is VoIP and/or DNS depending on your configuration. But if I was carrying on criminal activities across the net I'd probably be looking at ways to encrypt everything which isn't hard to do. On Mon, Mar 18, 2024, 4:17 PM Mark Radabaugh wrote: > While CALEA is still on the books it doesn’t seem to be of much interest > to LEA. > > No - you do not have to be able to identify the user. If LEA can identify > a specific end user for you out of the WiFi, then yes, they could ask for > you to monitor it but keep in mind that CALEA isn’t meant for historical > data. It’s meant to be real-time capture once they have identified a > particular person of interest (well, a specific phone number, IP address, > etc.). > > Every year I get a phone call from the FBI verifying our contact > information and how to get hold of us if they need something. I point out > that we file our CALEA documents and ask why they are calling - and they > say ‘oh, we don’t use that’. Uh, got it. But the FCC still thinks it’s > important and you best follow the rules and file it anyway. Local and > State LEA has never heard of CALEA. It’s just one more bureaucracy on > autopilot that has outlived it’s usefulness. > > Mark > > > On Mar 18, 2024, at 6:29 AM, dmmoff...@gmail.com wrote: > > CALEA hasn’t been on my radar much, so this is probably an old topic, but > it’s one I don’t know much about. > > If you provide WiFi in a public space how do you handle compliance? We > have parks, airports, and other public spaces with managed WiFi. There are > also MDU’s with WiFi in a public area like a courtyard, lounge, lobby, etc. > > My understanding is you have to be able to capture traffic if you’re > ordered to do so. Do you also have to be able to identify the individual? > > If they ever asked me to capture all traffic from the park WiFi….sure no > problem. If they gave me a particular IP, port, and time, and they wanted > me to start capturing traffic AND identify who it was, then I would only be > able to tell them it was someone at the park. At *best* I could give > them a MAC address and hostname. If I have to identify the *customer* > that’s easy: the municipal parks department, but I’m guessing that’s not > what they will want to know. > > Will this stuff get us in trouble? > > -Adam > > -- > AF mailing list > AF@af.afmug.com > http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com > > > -- > AF mailing list > AF@af.afmug.com > http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com > -- AF mailing list AF@af.afmug.com http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
Re: [AFMUG] CALEA and WiFi
Definitely includes internet service. You need to be able to capture the customer's traffic without changing the network. On Mon, Mar 18, 2024 at 12:45 PM Chuck McCown via AF wrote: > I was under the impression that CALEA was for telephone call intercepts? > > Best Regards, > Chuck McCown > > McCown Technology Corporation > 8401 N Commerce Dr > Lake Point, Utah 84074 > 801-250-9503 Office > 435-830-4306 Cell > www.mccowntech.com > www.microtrench.pro > www.terabitnetworks.com > > *From:* dmmoff...@gmail.com > *Sent:* Monday, March 18, 2024 4:29 AM > *To:* 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' > *Subject:* [AFMUG] CALEA and WiFi > > > CALEA hasn’t been on my radar much, so this is probably an old topic, but > it’s one I don’t know much about. > > > > If you provide WiFi in a public space how do you handle compliance? We > have parks, airports, and other public spaces with managed WiFi. There are > also MDU’s with WiFi in a public area like a courtyard, lounge, lobby, etc. > > > > My understanding is you have to be able to capture traffic if you’re > ordered to do so. Do you also have to be able to identify the individual? > > > > If they ever asked me to capture all traffic from the park WiFi….sure no > problem. If they gave me a particular IP, port, and time, and they wanted > me to start capturing traffic AND identify who it was, then I would only be > able to tell them it was someone at the park. At *best* I could give > them a MAC address and hostname. If I have to identify the *customer* > that’s easy: the municipal parks department, but I’m guessing that’s not > what they will want to know. > > > > Will this stuff get us in trouble? > > > > -Adam > > > > -- > -- > AF mailing list > AF@af.afmug.com > http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com > > -- > AF mailing list > AF@af.afmug.com > http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com > -- AF mailing list AF@af.afmug.com http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
Re: [AFMUG] CALEA and WiFi
“Bureaucracy on autopilot”. That’ll be my new favorite term. From: AF On Behalf Of Mark Radabaugh Sent: Monday, March 18, 2024 5:16 PM To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group Subject: Re: [AFMUG] CALEA and WiFi While CALEA is still on the books it doesn’t seem to be of much interest to LEA. No - you do not have to be able to identify the user. If LEA can identify a specific end user for you out of the WiFi, then yes, they could ask for you to monitor it but keep in mind that CALEA isn’t meant for historical data. It’s meant to be real-time capture once they have identified a particular person of interest (well, a specific phone number, IP address, etc.). Every year I get a phone call from the FBI verifying our contact information and how to get hold of us if they need something. I point out that we file our CALEA documents and ask why they are calling - and they say ‘oh, we don’t use that’. Uh, got it. But the FCC still thinks it’s important and you best follow the rules and file it anyway. Local and State LEA has never heard of CALEA. It’s just one more bureaucracy on autopilot that has outlived it’s usefulness. Mark On Mar 18, 2024, at 6:29 AM, dmmoff...@gmail.com <mailto:dmmoff...@gmail.com> wrote: CALEA hasn’t been on my radar much, so this is probably an old topic, but it’s one I don’t know much about. If you provide WiFi in a public space how do you handle compliance? We have parks, airports, and other public spaces with managed WiFi. There are also MDU’s with WiFi in a public area like a courtyard, lounge, lobby, etc. My understanding is you have to be able to capture traffic if you’re ordered to do so. Do you also have to be able to identify the individual? If they ever asked me to capture all traffic from the park WiFi….sure no problem. If they gave me a particular IP, port, and time, and they wanted me to start capturing traffic AND identify who it was, then I would only be able to tell them it was someone at the park. At best I could give them a MAC address and hostname. If I have to identify the customer that’s easy: the municipal parks department, but I’m guessing that’s not what they will want to know. Will this stuff get us in trouble? -Adam -- AF mailing list AF@af.afmug.com <mailto:AF@af.afmug.com> http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com -- AF mailing list AF@af.afmug.com http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
Re: [AFMUG] CALEA and WiFi
While CALEA is still on the books it doesn’t seem to be of much interest to LEA. No - you do not have to be able to identify the user. If LEA can identify a specific end user for you out of the WiFi, then yes, they could ask for you to monitor it but keep in mind that CALEA isn’t meant for historical data. It’s meant to be real-time capture once they have identified a particular person of interest (well, a specific phone number, IP address, etc.). Every year I get a phone call from the FBI verifying our contact information and how to get hold of us if they need something. I point out that we file our CALEA documents and ask why they are calling - and they say ‘oh, we don’t use that’. Uh, got it. But the FCC still thinks it’s important and you best follow the rules and file it anyway. Local and State LEA has never heard of CALEA. It’s just one more bureaucracy on autopilot that has outlived it’s usefulness. Mark > On Mar 18, 2024, at 6:29 AM, dmmoff...@gmail.com wrote: > > CALEA hasn’t been on my radar much, so this is probably an old topic, but > it’s one I don’t know much about. > > If you provide WiFi in a public space how do you handle compliance? We have > parks, airports, and other public spaces with managed WiFi. There are also > MDU’s with WiFi in a public area like a courtyard, lounge, lobby, etc. > > My understanding is you have to be able to capture traffic if you’re ordered > to do so. Do you also have to be able to identify the individual? > > If they ever asked me to capture all traffic from the park WiFi….sure no > problem. If they gave me a particular IP, port, and time, and they wanted me > to start capturing traffic AND identify who it was, then I would only be able > to tell them it was someone at the park. At best I could give them a MAC > address and hostname. If I have to identify the customer that’s easy: the > municipal parks department, but I’m guessing that’s not what they will want > to know. > > Will this stuff get us in trouble? > > -Adam > > -- > AF mailing list > AF@af.afmug.com > http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com -- AF mailing list AF@af.afmug.com http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
Re: [AFMUG] CALEA and WiFi
We had a couple of cities want a franchise. One backed down after a week or two, while the other took over a year, then backed down. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions Midwest Internet Exchange The Brothers WISP - Original Message - From: ch...@go-mtc.com To: "Mike Hammett" Cc: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" Sent: Monday, March 18, 2024 12:27:19 PM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] CALEA and WiFi They made me get a franchise here in our county. But they do it to the others as well. From: Mike Hammett Sent: Monday, March 18, 2024 11:08 AM To: ch...@go-mtc.com Cc: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group Subject: Re: [AFMUG] CALEA and WiFi *nods* It sure is a lifesaver here in IL. As long as you don't plan on doing linear TV, you don't need a franchise, therefore if you pay into the state telecom tax fund (on voice revenues), you can build in the public ROW and easements and do so at no permit cost. Now the easement or ROW has to allow for telecom. A lot of the rural ones only allow for a road, so then you have to get your own easement anyway. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions Midwest Internet Exchange The Brothers WISP - Original Message - From: ch...@go-mtc.com To: "Mike Hammett" , "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" Sent: Monday, March 18, 2024 12:05:26 PM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] CALEA and WiFi The more important detail is that we are regulated as carriers. That is helpful to point out for ROW and easement occupancy. From: Mike Hammett Sent: Monday, March 18, 2024 10:59 AM To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group Cc: ch...@go-mtc.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] CALEA and WiFi The FCC's First Report and Order, issued in September 2005, ruled that providers of broadband Internet access and interconnected VoIP services are regulable as “telecommunications carriers” under CALEA. That order was affirmed and further clarified by the Second Report and Order, dated May 2006. On May 5, 2006, a group of higher education and library organizations led by the American Council on Education (ACE) challenged that ruling, arguing that CALEA did not apply to them. On June 9, 2006, the D.C. Circuit Court summarily denied the petition without addressing the constitutionality. [11] - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions Midwest Internet Exchange The Brothers WISP - Original Message - From: "Chuck McCown via AF" To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" Cc: ch...@go-mtc.com Sent: Monday, March 18, 2024 11:43:51 AM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] CALEA and WiFi I was under the impression that CALEA was for telephone call intercepts? Best Regards, Chuck McCown McCown Technology Corporation 8401 N Commerce Dr Lake Point, Utah 84074 801-250-9503 Office 435-830-4306 Cell www.mccowntech.com www.microtrench.pro www.terabitnetworks.com From: dmmoff...@gmail.com Sent: Monday, March 18, 2024 4:29 AM To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' Subject: [AFMUG] CALEA and WiFi CALEA hasn’t been on my radar much, so this is probably an old topic, but it’s one I don’t know much about. If you provide WiFi in a public space how do you handle compliance? We have parks, airports, and other public spaces with managed WiFi. There are also MDU’s with WiFi in a public area like a courtyard, lounge, lobby, etc. My understanding is you have to be able to capture traffic if you’re ordered to do so. Do you also have to be able to identify the individual? If they ever asked me to capture all traffic from the park WiFi….sure no problem. If they gave me a particular IP, port, and time, and they wanted me to start capturing traffic AND identify who it was, then I would only be able to tell them it was someone at the park. At best I could give them a MAC address and hostname. If I have to identify the customer that’s easy: the municipal parks department, but I’m guessing that’s not what they will want to know. Will this stuff get us in trouble? -Adam -- AF mailing list AF@af.afmug.com http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com -- AF mailing list AF@af.afmug.com http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com -- AF mailing list AF@af.afmug.com http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
Re: [AFMUG] CALEA and WiFi
They made me get a franchise here in our county. But they do it to the others as well. From: Mike Hammett Sent: Monday, March 18, 2024 11:08 AM To: ch...@go-mtc.com Cc: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group Subject: Re: [AFMUG] CALEA and WiFi *nods* It sure is a lifesaver here in IL. As long as you don't plan on doing linear TV, you don't need a franchise, therefore if you pay into the state telecom tax fund (on voice revenues), you can build in the public ROW and easements and do so at no permit cost. Now the easement or ROW has to allow for telecom. A lot of the rural ones only allow for a road, so then you have to get your own easement anyway. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions Midwest Internet Exchange The Brothers WISP From: ch...@go-mtc.com To: "Mike Hammett" , "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" Sent: Monday, March 18, 2024 12:05:26 PM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] CALEA and WiFi The more important detail is that we are regulated as carriers. That is helpful to point out for ROW and easement occupancy. From: Mike Hammett Sent: Monday, March 18, 2024 10:59 AM To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group Cc: ch...@go-mtc.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] CALEA and WiFi The FCC's First Report and Order, issued in September 2005, ruled that providers of broadband Internet access and interconnected VoIP services are regulable as “telecommunications carriers” under CALEA. That order was affirmed and further clarified by the Second Report and Order, dated May 2006. On May 5, 2006, a group of higher education and library organizations led by the American Council on Education (ACE) challenged that ruling, arguing that CALEA did not apply to them. On June 9, 2006, the D.C. Circuit Court summarily denied the petition without addressing the constitutionality.[11] - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions Midwest Internet Exchange The Brothers WISP From: "Chuck McCown via AF" To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" Cc: ch...@go-mtc.com Sent: Monday, March 18, 2024 11:43:51 AM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] CALEA and WiFi I was under the impression that CALEA was for telephone call intercepts? Best Regards, Chuck McCown McCown Technology Corporation 8401 N Commerce Dr Lake Point, Utah 84074 801-250-9503 Office 435-830-4306 Cell www.mccowntech.com www.microtrench.pro www.terabitnetworks.com From: dmmoff...@gmail.com Sent: Monday, March 18, 2024 4:29 AM To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' Subject: [AFMUG] CALEA and WiFi CALEA hasn’t been on my radar much, so this is probably an old topic, but it’s one I don’t know much about. If you provide WiFi in a public space how do you handle compliance? We have parks, airports, and other public spaces with managed WiFi. There are also MDU’s with WiFi in a public area like a courtyard, lounge, lobby, etc. My understanding is you have to be able to capture traffic if you’re ordered to do so. Do you also have to be able to identify the individual? If they ever asked me to capture all traffic from the park WiFi….sure no problem. If they gave me a particular IP, port, and time, and they wanted me to start capturing traffic AND identify who it was, then I would only be able to tell them it was someone at the park. At best I could give them a MAC address and hostname. If I have to identify the customer that’s easy: the municipal parks department, but I’m guessing that’s not what they will want to know. Will this stuff get us in trouble? -Adam -- AF mailing list AF@af.afmug.com http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com -- AF mailing list AF@af.afmug.com http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com -- AF mailing list AF@af.afmug.com http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
Re: [AFMUG] CALEA and WiFi
*nods* It sure is a lifesaver here in IL. As long as you don't plan on doing linear TV, you don't need a franchise, therefore if you pay into the state telecom tax fund (on voice revenues), you can build in the public ROW and easements and do so at no permit cost. Now the easement or ROW has to allow for telecom. A lot of the rural ones only allow for a road, so then you have to get your own easement anyway. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions Midwest Internet Exchange The Brothers WISP - Original Message - From: ch...@go-mtc.com To: "Mike Hammett" , "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" Sent: Monday, March 18, 2024 12:05:26 PM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] CALEA and WiFi The more important detail is that we are regulated as carriers. That is helpful to point out for ROW and easement occupancy. From: Mike Hammett Sent: Monday, March 18, 2024 10:59 AM To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group Cc: ch...@go-mtc.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] CALEA and WiFi The FCC's First Report and Order, issued in September 2005, ruled that providers of broadband Internet access and interconnected VoIP services are regulable as “telecommunications carriers” under CALEA. That order was affirmed and further clarified by the Second Report and Order, dated May 2006. On May 5, 2006, a group of higher education and library organizations led by the American Council on Education (ACE) challenged that ruling, arguing that CALEA did not apply to them. On June 9, 2006, the D.C. Circuit Court summarily denied the petition without addressing the constitutionality. [11] - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions Midwest Internet Exchange The Brothers WISP - Original Message - From: "Chuck McCown via AF" To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" Cc: ch...@go-mtc.com Sent: Monday, March 18, 2024 11:43:51 AM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] CALEA and WiFi I was under the impression that CALEA was for telephone call intercepts? Best Regards, Chuck McCown McCown Technology Corporation 8401 N Commerce Dr Lake Point, Utah 84074 801-250-9503 Office 435-830-4306 Cell www.mccowntech.com www.microtrench.pro www.terabitnetworks.com From: dmmoff...@gmail.com Sent: Monday, March 18, 2024 4:29 AM To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' Subject: [AFMUG] CALEA and WiFi CALEA hasn’t been on my radar much, so this is probably an old topic, but it’s one I don’t know much about. If you provide WiFi in a public space how do you handle compliance? We have parks, airports, and other public spaces with managed WiFi. There are also MDU’s with WiFi in a public area like a courtyard, lounge, lobby, etc. My understanding is you have to be able to capture traffic if you’re ordered to do so. Do you also have to be able to identify the individual? If they ever asked me to capture all traffic from the park WiFi….sure no problem. If they gave me a particular IP, port, and time, and they wanted me to start capturing traffic AND identify who it was, then I would only be able to tell them it was someone at the park. At best I could give them a MAC address and hostname. If I have to identify the customer that’s easy: the municipal parks department, but I’m guessing that’s not what they will want to know. Will this stuff get us in trouble? -Adam -- AF mailing list AF@af.afmug.com http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com -- AF mailing list AF@af.afmug.com http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com -- AF mailing list AF@af.afmug.com http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
Re: [AFMUG] CALEA and WiFi
The more important detail is that we are regulated as carriers. That is helpful to point out for ROW and easement occupancy. From: Mike Hammett Sent: Monday, March 18, 2024 10:59 AM To: AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group Cc: ch...@go-mtc.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] CALEA and WiFi The FCC's First Report and Order, issued in September 2005, ruled that providers of broadband Internet access and interconnected VoIP services are regulable as “telecommunications carriers” under CALEA. That order was affirmed and further clarified by the Second Report and Order, dated May 2006. On May 5, 2006, a group of higher education and library organizations led by the American Council on Education (ACE) challenged that ruling, arguing that CALEA did not apply to them. On June 9, 2006, the D.C. Circuit Court summarily denied the petition without addressing the constitutionality.[11] - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions Midwest Internet Exchange The Brothers WISP From: "Chuck McCown via AF" To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" Cc: ch...@go-mtc.com Sent: Monday, March 18, 2024 11:43:51 AM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] CALEA and WiFi I was under the impression that CALEA was for telephone call intercepts? Best Regards, Chuck McCown McCown Technology Corporation 8401 N Commerce Dr Lake Point, Utah 84074 801-250-9503 Office 435-830-4306 Cell www.mccowntech.com www.microtrench.pro www.terabitnetworks.com From: dmmoff...@gmail.com Sent: Monday, March 18, 2024 4:29 AM To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' Subject: [AFMUG] CALEA and WiFi CALEA hasn’t been on my radar much, so this is probably an old topic, but it’s one I don’t know much about. If you provide WiFi in a public space how do you handle compliance? We have parks, airports, and other public spaces with managed WiFi. There are also MDU’s with WiFi in a public area like a courtyard, lounge, lobby, etc. My understanding is you have to be able to capture traffic if you’re ordered to do so. Do you also have to be able to identify the individual? If they ever asked me to capture all traffic from the park WiFi….sure no problem. If they gave me a particular IP, port, and time, and they wanted me to start capturing traffic AND identify who it was, then I would only be able to tell them it was someone at the park. At best I could give them a MAC address and hostname. If I have to identify the customer that’s easy: the municipal parks department, but I’m guessing that’s not what they will want to know. Will this stuff get us in trouble? -Adam -- AF mailing list AF@af.afmug.com http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com -- AF mailing list AF@af.afmug.com http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com -- AF mailing list AF@af.afmug.com http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
Re: [AFMUG] CALEA and WiFi
The FCC's First Report and Order, issued in September 2005, ruled that providers of broadband Internet access and interconnected VoIP services are regulable as “telecommunications carriers” under CALEA. That order was affirmed and further clarified by the Second Report and Order, dated May 2006. On May 5, 2006, a group of higher education and library organizations led by the American Council on Education (ACE) challenged that ruling, arguing that CALEA did not apply to them. On June 9, 2006, the D.C. Circuit Court summarily denied the petition without addressing the constitutionality. [11] - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions Midwest Internet Exchange The Brothers WISP - Original Message - From: "Chuck McCown via AF" To: "AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group" Cc: ch...@go-mtc.com Sent: Monday, March 18, 2024 11:43:51 AM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] CALEA and WiFi I was under the impression that CALEA was for telephone call intercepts? Best Regards, Chuck McCown McCown Technology Corporation 8401 N Commerce Dr Lake Point, Utah 84074 801-250-9503 Office 435-830-4306 Cell www.mccowntech.com www.microtrench.pro www.terabitnetworks.com From: dmmoff...@gmail.com Sent: Monday, March 18, 2024 4:29 AM To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' Subject: [AFMUG] CALEA and WiFi CALEA hasn’t been on my radar much, so this is probably an old topic, but it’s one I don’t know much about. If you provide WiFi in a public space how do you handle compliance? We have parks, airports, and other public spaces with managed WiFi. There are also MDU’s with WiFi in a public area like a courtyard, lounge, lobby, etc. My understanding is you have to be able to capture traffic if you’re ordered to do so. Do you also have to be able to identify the individual? If they ever asked me to capture all traffic from the park WiFi….sure no problem. If they gave me a particular IP, port, and time, and they wanted me to start capturing traffic AND identify who it was, then I would only be able to tell them it was someone at the park. At best I could give them a MAC address and hostname. If I have to identify the customer that’s easy: the municipal parks department, but I’m guessing that’s not what they will want to know. Will this stuff get us in trouble? -Adam -- AF mailing list AF@af.afmug.com http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com -- AF mailing list AF@af.afmug.com http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com -- AF mailing list AF@af.afmug.com http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
Re: [AFMUG] CALEA and WiFi
I was under the impression that CALEA was for telephone call intercepts? Best Regards, Chuck McCown McCown Technology Corporation 8401 N Commerce Dr Lake Point, Utah 84074 801-250-9503 Office 435-830-4306 Cell www.mccowntech.com www.microtrench.pro www.terabitnetworks.com From: dmmoff...@gmail.com Sent: Monday, March 18, 2024 4:29 AM To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' Subject: [AFMUG] CALEA and WiFi CALEA hasn’t been on my radar much, so this is probably an old topic, but it’s one I don’t know much about. If you provide WiFi in a public space how do you handle compliance? We have parks, airports, and other public spaces with managed WiFi. There are also MDU’s with WiFi in a public area like a courtyard, lounge, lobby, etc. My understanding is you have to be able to capture traffic if you’re ordered to do so. Do you also have to be able to identify the individual? If they ever asked me to capture all traffic from the park WiFi….sure no problem. If they gave me a particular IP, port, and time, and they wanted me to start capturing traffic AND identify who it was, then I would only be able to tell them it was someone at the park. At best I could give them a MAC address and hostname. If I have to identify the customer that’s easy: the municipal parks department, but I’m guessing that’s not what they will want to know. Will this stuff get us in trouble? -Adam -- AF mailing list AF@af.afmug.com http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com -- AF mailing list AF@af.afmug.com http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
Re: [AFMUG] CALEA and WiFi
I actually have zero hands-on experience, but from what I've seen posted in the past, they don't expect you to do the impossible. And LEA is more interested in catching the bad guys than hanging you out to dry on a technicality, so they will work with what you can give them. Something that seems to come up in discussions however is only turning over traffic captured from the target customer, not sure how that applies in the case of something like public WiFi at a park. My limited personal experience with law enforcement is they want information not wiretaps. Occasionally might be in real-time (sting operation, hostage crisis, etc.), but more typically something in the past. Usually they have an IP address and date/time, and want the name and address and sometimes everything you've got about the corresponding customer. Fraud, theft, domestic disputes, kiddy porn, that kind of stuff. Lately it seems we don't find out why they want the information, and they often forbid us to alert the customer, at least for several months (presumably to allow for a grand jury or court date). Just blue-skying, I guess if we did WiFi for public spaces, we would have to worry more about stuff like mass shootings or terrorist attacks. Although I would imagine the cellphone providers would be their most important source of information. From: AF On Behalf Of dmmoff...@gmail.com Sent: Monday, March 18, 2024 5:29 AM To: 'AnimalFarm Microwave Users Group' Subject: [AFMUG] CALEA and WiFi CALEA hasn't been on my radar much, so this is probably an old topic, but it's one I don't know much about. If you provide WiFi in a public space how do you handle compliance? We have parks, airports, and other public spaces with managed WiFi. There are also MDU's with WiFi in a public area like a courtyard, lounge, lobby, etc. My understanding is you have to be able to capture traffic if you're ordered to do so. Do you also have to be able to identify the individual? If they ever asked me to capture all traffic from the park WiFi..sure no problem. If they gave me a particular IP, port, and time, and they wanted me to start capturing traffic AND identify who it was, then I would only be able to tell them it was someone at the park. At best I could give them a MAC address and hostname. If I have to identify the customer that's easy: the municipal parks department, but I'm guessing that's not what they will want to know. Will this stuff get us in trouble? -Adam -- AF mailing list AF@af.afmug.com http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
[AFMUG] CALEA and WiFi
CALEA hasn't been on my radar much, so this is probably an old topic, but it's one I don't know much about. If you provide WiFi in a public space how do you handle compliance? We have parks, airports, and other public spaces with managed WiFi. There are also MDU's with WiFi in a public area like a courtyard, lounge, lobby, etc. My understanding is you have to be able to capture traffic if you're ordered to do so. Do you also have to be able to identify the individual? If they ever asked me to capture all traffic from the park WiFi..sure no problem. If they gave me a particular IP, port, and time, and they wanted me to start capturing traffic AND identify who it was, then I would only be able to tell them it was someone at the park. At best I could give them a MAC address and hostname. If I have to identify the customer that's easy: the municipal parks department, but I'm guessing that's not what they will want to know. Will this stuff get us in trouble? -Adam -- AF mailing list AF@af.afmug.com http://af.afmug.com/mailman/listinfo/af_af.afmug.com
