Re: [AFMUG] Strict NAT message on Xbox One?

[That One Guy /sarcasm]

It truly is sad, with the potential that the invention of the internet
created for mankind, the amount of time , effort and investment that isps
have to put into troubleshooting videogames, video streaming, porn, etc.
I'm a terrible human being, but humanity never ceases to depress me.

Remember when the human genome project started in dial-up days you could
install the distributed computing client to help with the mass calculations
or whatever it was doing. Stuff like that never went mainstream, and now we
have huge processors sitting 99 percent idle, more bandwidth than we ever
conceived possible, and peoples priorities are game consoles and Netflix.

Humans are a big disappointment
On May 8, 2016 10:11 PM, "Justin Wilson"  wrote:

> The only reason someone needs an open NAT is if they want to host the
> games themselves.  It varies depending on the game because some games do a
> peer host.  This is usually someone with the lowest latency connection.
> Everyone connects to this person to host the game.  Gamers want to be this
> host because it gives them a few ms of advantage.  Having an open nat does
> not affect their ability to play games.  If they can’t host the games
> simply chooses someone else who can. When you have "Strict NAT" on the
> XBox, what it effectively means is that your XBox isn't able to open an
> arbitrary port on your NAT device and have it forwarded back to the XBox.
> If it can't do this, then it is never able to "host" any chat - all of its
> connections need to be made outbound. In cases like this everyone would
> need IPv6 because they would need to connect natively via IPv6, which isn’t
> going to happen for awhile.
>
> Some other games connect to centralized servers.  World of Warcraft (PC),
> Destiny (Xbox and Playation), and others use centralized servers for the
> game.  This means the natting issue is irrelevant.
>
> Too much nat can adversely affect voice quality and other things, but only
> when it comes to hosting. Otherwise the chat is “Streamed” to whomever is
> hosting.
>
> Justin Wilson
> j...@mtin.net
>
> ---
> http://www.mtin.net Owner/CEO
> xISP Solutions- Consulting – Data Centers - Bandwidth
>
> http://www.midwest-ix.com  COO/Chairman
> Internet Exchange - Peering - Distributed Fabric
>
> > On May 8, 2016, at 8:41 PM, Jon Auer  wrote:
> >
> > It seems to vary by game.
> > Playing first person shooters I noticed that audio wouldn't work
> reliably & I'd get dropped into games with undesirable latency
> characteristics. Pretty similar to VoIP and issues with one way audio, not
> being able to do reinvites, etc.
> >
> > I wish they'd just bypass all the NAT issues by using native v6 with a
> fallback to Teredo. Then I'd have no problem with the blame the ISP part.
> Extra lag? Ask your ISP about IPv6 Today!
> >
> > On Sun, May 8, 2016 at 3:20 PM, Ken Hohhof  wrote:
> > Also, is it true this is only an issue for peer-to-peer games, not cloud
> hosted games?
> >
> >
>
>

Re: [AFMUG] Strict NAT message on Xbox One?

[Justin Wilson]

The only reason someone needs an open NAT is if they want to host the games 
themselves.  It varies depending on the game because some games do a peer host. 
 This is usually someone with the lowest latency connection.  Everyone connects 
to this person to host the game.  Gamers want to be this host because it gives 
them a few ms of advantage.  Having an open nat does not affect their ability 
to play games.  If they can’t host the games simply chooses someone else who 
can. When you have "Strict NAT" on the XBox, what it effectively means is that 
your XBox isn't able to open an arbitrary port on your NAT device and have it 
forwarded back to the XBox. If it can't do this, then it is never able to 
"host" any chat - all of its connections need to be made outbound. In cases 
like this everyone would need IPv6 because they would need to connect natively 
via IPv6, which isn’t going to happen for awhile.

Some other games connect to centralized servers.  World of Warcraft (PC), 
Destiny (Xbox and Playation), and others use centralized servers for the game.  
This means the natting issue is irrelevant.   

Too much nat can adversely affect voice quality and other things, but only when 
it comes to hosting. Otherwise the chat is “Streamed” to whomever is hosting.

Justin Wilson
j...@mtin.net

---
http://www.mtin.net Owner/CEO
xISP Solutions- Consulting – Data Centers - Bandwidth

http://www.midwest-ix.com  COO/Chairman
Internet Exchange - Peering - Distributed Fabric

> On May 8, 2016, at 8:41 PM, Jon Auer  wrote:
> 
> It seems to vary by game.
> Playing first person shooters I noticed that audio wouldn't work reliably & 
> I'd get dropped into games with undesirable latency characteristics. Pretty 
> similar to VoIP and issues with one way audio, not being able to do 
> reinvites, etc.
> 
> I wish they'd just bypass all the NAT issues by using native v6 with a 
> fallback to Teredo. Then I'd have no problem with the blame the ISP part. 
> Extra lag? Ask your ISP about IPv6 Today!
> 
> On Sun, May 8, 2016 at 3:20 PM, Ken Hohhof  wrote:
> Also, is it true this is only an issue for peer-to-peer games, not cloud 
> hosted games?
> 
> 

Re: [AFMUG] Strict NAT message on Xbox One?

[Jon Auer]

It seems to vary by game.
Playing first person shooters I noticed that audio wouldn't work reliably &
I'd get dropped into games with undesirable latency characteristics. Pretty
similar to VoIP and issues with one way audio, not being able to do
reinvites, etc.

I wish they'd just bypass all the NAT issues by using native v6 with a
fallback to Teredo. Then I'd have no problem with the blame the ISP part.
Extra lag? Ask your ISP about IPv6 Today!

On Sun, May 8, 2016 at 3:20 PM, Ken Hohhof  wrote:

> Also, is it true this is only an issue for peer-to-peer games, not cloud
> hosted games?
>

Re: [AFMUG] Strict NAT message on Xbox One?

[Jon Auer]

Yes, that's what we do for customers with Canopy SM NAT.

On Sat, May 7, 2016 at 9:22 AM, Ty Featherling 
wrote:

> Can you out them in the DMZ behind that radio?
> On May 7, 2016 1:30 AM, "Jon Auer"  wrote:
>
>> For game consoles you basically enable UPnP or deal with a bunch of port
>> forwarding.
>> Xbox One is fairly sane. WiiU literally wants all of UDP forwarded.
>>
>> On Fri, May 6, 2016 at 11:19 PM, Michael Gawlowski <
>> m...@triadwireless.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Anyone had this issue? The customer is behind a ubiquiti running NAT
>>> with the ubiquiti using a public IP behind one of our Mikrotik's. The
>>> Mikrotik does not have any ports blocked, either. Any ideas?
>>>
>>> Thank you,
>>> Michael Gawlowski
>>> Triad Wireless, LLC
>>
>>
>>

Re: [AFMUG] Strict NAT message on Xbox One?

[Ken Hohhof]

Maybe this is the answer to my question “how can I get customers to pay extra 
for IPv6?”

From: Glen Waldrop 
Sent: Sunday, May 08, 2016 7:08 PM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Strict NAT message on Xbox One?

All of this is true.

From: Ken Hohhof 
Sent: Sunday, May 08, 2016 3:20 PM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Strict NAT message on Xbox One?

It’s so annoying when a big company like Microsoft makes up nonstandard terms 
like open/moderate/strict NAT, without really explaining what those terms mean. 
 And imply the ISP is at fault for blocking ports which need to be “opened”, 
instead of explaining that port forwarding, default DMZ host, or UPnP needs to 
be configured on the customer’s NAT router, and the game console will need a 
static IP on the LAN or a DHCP reservation in the router.

Also, is it true this is only an issue for peer-to-peer games, not cloud hosted 
games?


From: Justin Wilson 
Sent: Sunday, May 08, 2016 2:41 PM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Strict NAT message on Xbox One?

My MUM presentation has some info on Xbox and Nat.  I will be doing an expanded 
post in the near future to supplement the presentation. 

http://www.mtin.net/blog/?p=1178


Justin Wilson
j...@mtin.net

---
http://www.mtin.net Owner/CEO
xISP Solutions- Consulting – Data Centers - Bandwidth


http://www.midwest-ix.com  COO/Chairman
Internet Exchange - Peering - Distributed Fabric

  On May 8, 2016, at 11:06 AM, That One Guy /sarcasm 
<thatoneguyst...@gmail.com> wrote:

  I assume a cpe is the same config as an air router. Our dump file sets an ip 
outside the dhcp pool in the air router as dmz. We just tell them the ip to set 
on their device, no problems thus far

  On May 7, 2016 9:22 AM, "Ty Featherling" <tyfeatherl...@gmail.com> wrote:

Can you out them in the DMZ behind that radio? 


On May 7, 2016 1:30 AM, "Jon Auer" <j...@tapodi.net> wrote:

  For game consoles you basically enable UPnP or deal with a bunch of port 
forwarding.  
  Xbox One is fairly sane. WiiU literally wants all of UDP forwarded.

  On Fri, May 6, 2016 at 11:19 PM, Michael Gawlowski 
<m...@triadwireless.net> wrote:

Anyone had this issue? The customer is behind a ubiquiti running NAT 
with the ubiquiti using a public IP behind one of our Mikrotik's. The Mikrotik 
does not have any ports blocked, either. Any ideas?

Thank you,
Michael Gawlowski
Triad Wireless, LLC

Re: [AFMUG] Strict NAT message on Xbox One?

[Glen Waldrop]

All of this is true.

From: Ken Hohhof 
Sent: Sunday, May 08, 2016 3:20 PM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Strict NAT message on Xbox One?

It’s so annoying when a big company like Microsoft makes up nonstandard terms 
like open/moderate/strict NAT, without really explaining what those terms mean. 
 And imply the ISP is at fault for blocking ports which need to be “opened”, 
instead of explaining that port forwarding, default DMZ host, or UPnP needs to 
be configured on the customer’s NAT router, and the game console will need a 
static IP on the LAN or a DHCP reservation in the router.

Also, is it true this is only an issue for peer-to-peer games, not cloud hosted 
games?


From: Justin Wilson 
Sent: Sunday, May 08, 2016 2:41 PM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Strict NAT message on Xbox One?

My MUM presentation has some info on Xbox and Nat.  I will be doing an expanded 
post in the near future to supplement the presentation. 

http://www.mtin.net/blog/?p=1178


Justin Wilson
j...@mtin.net

---
http://www.mtin.net Owner/CEO
xISP Solutions- Consulting – Data Centers - Bandwidth


http://www.midwest-ix.com  COO/Chairman
Internet Exchange - Peering - Distributed Fabric

  On May 8, 2016, at 11:06 AM, That One Guy /sarcasm 
<thatoneguyst...@gmail.com> wrote:

  I assume a cpe is the same config as an air router. Our dump file sets an ip 
outside the dhcp pool in the air router as dmz. We just tell them the ip to set 
on their device, no problems thus far

  On May 7, 2016 9:22 AM, "Ty Featherling" <tyfeatherl...@gmail.com> wrote:

Can you out them in the DMZ behind that radio? 


On May 7, 2016 1:30 AM, "Jon Auer" <j...@tapodi.net> wrote:

  For game consoles you basically enable UPnP or deal with a bunch of port 
forwarding.  
  Xbox One is fairly sane. WiiU literally wants all of UDP forwarded.

  On Fri, May 6, 2016 at 11:19 PM, Michael Gawlowski 
<m...@triadwireless.net> wrote:

Anyone had this issue? The customer is behind a ubiquiti running NAT 
with the ubiquiti using a public IP behind one of our Mikrotik's. The Mikrotik 
does not have any ports blocked, either. Any ideas?

Thank you,
Michael Gawlowski
Triad Wireless, LLC

Re: [AFMUG] Strict NAT message on Xbox One?

[Ken Hohhof]

It’s so annoying when a big company like Microsoft makes up nonstandard terms 
like open/moderate/strict NAT, without really explaining what those terms mean. 
 And imply the ISP is at fault for blocking ports which need to be “opened”, 
instead of explaining that port forwarding, default DMZ host, or UPnP needs to 
be configured on the customer’s NAT router, and the game console will need a 
static IP on the LAN or a DHCP reservation in the router.

Also, is it true this is only an issue for peer-to-peer games, not cloud hosted 
games?


From: Justin Wilson 
Sent: Sunday, May 08, 2016 2:41 PM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Strict NAT message on Xbox One?

My MUM presentation has some info on Xbox and Nat.  I will be doing an expanded 
post in the near future to supplement the presentation. 

http://www.mtin.net/blog/?p=1178


Justin Wilson
j...@mtin.net

---
http://www.mtin.net Owner/CEO
xISP Solutions- Consulting – Data Centers - Bandwidth


http://www.midwest-ix.com  COO/Chairman
Internet Exchange - Peering - Distributed Fabric

  On May 8, 2016, at 11:06 AM, That One Guy /sarcasm 
<thatoneguyst...@gmail.com> wrote:

  I assume a cpe is the same config as an air router. Our dump file sets an ip 
outside the dhcp pool in the air router as dmz. We just tell them the ip to set 
on their device, no problems thus far

  On May 7, 2016 9:22 AM, "Ty Featherling" <tyfeatherl...@gmail.com> wrote:

Can you out them in the DMZ behind that radio? 


On May 7, 2016 1:30 AM, "Jon Auer" <j...@tapodi.net> wrote:

  For game consoles you basically enable UPnP or deal with a bunch of port 
forwarding.  
  Xbox One is fairly sane. WiiU literally wants all of UDP forwarded.

  On Fri, May 6, 2016 at 11:19 PM, Michael Gawlowski 
<m...@triadwireless.net> wrote:

Anyone had this issue? The customer is behind a ubiquiti running NAT 
with the ubiquiti using a public IP behind one of our Mikrotik's. The Mikrotik 
does not have any ports blocked, either. Any ideas?

Thank you,
Michael Gawlowski
Triad Wireless, LLC

Re: [AFMUG] Strict NAT message on Xbox One?

[Justin Wilson]

My MUM presentation has some info on Xbox and Nat.  I will be doing an expanded 
post in the near future to supplement the presentation.

http://www.mtin.net/blog/?p=1178 


Justin Wilson
j...@mtin.net

---
http://www.mtin.net Owner/CEO
xISP Solutions- Consulting – Data Centers - Bandwidth

http://www.midwest-ix.com  COO/Chairman
Internet Exchange - Peering - Distributed Fabric

> On May 8, 2016, at 11:06 AM, That One Guy /sarcasm 
>  wrote:
> 
> I assume a cpe is the same config as an air router. Our dump file sets an ip 
> outside the dhcp pool in the air router as dmz. We just tell them the ip to 
> set on their device, no problems thus far
> 
> On May 7, 2016 9:22 AM, "Ty Featherling"  > wrote:
> Can you out them in the DMZ behind that radio? 
> On May 7, 2016 1:30 AM, "Jon Auer" > 
> wrote:
> For game consoles you basically enable UPnP or deal with a bunch of port 
> forwarding. 
> Xbox One is fairly sane. WiiU literally wants all of UDP forwarded.
> 
> On Fri, May 6, 2016 at 11:19 PM, Michael Gawlowski  > wrote:
> Anyone had this issue? The customer is behind a ubiquiti running NAT with the 
> ubiquiti using a public IP behind one of our Mikrotik's. The Mikrotik does 
> not have any ports blocked, either. Any ideas?
> 
> Thank you,
> Michael Gawlowski
> Triad Wireless, LLC
> 

Re: [AFMUG] Strict NAT message on Xbox One?

[That One Guy /sarcasm]

I assume a cpe is the same config as an air router. Our dump file sets an
ip outside the dhcp pool in the air router as dmz. We just tell them the ip
to set on their device, no problems thus far
On May 7, 2016 9:22 AM, "Ty Featherling"  wrote:

> Can you out them in the DMZ behind that radio?
> On May 7, 2016 1:30 AM, "Jon Auer"  wrote:
>
>> For game consoles you basically enable UPnP or deal with a bunch of port
>> forwarding.
>> Xbox One is fairly sane. WiiU literally wants all of UDP forwarded.
>>
>> On Fri, May 6, 2016 at 11:19 PM, Michael Gawlowski <
>> m...@triadwireless.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Anyone had this issue? The customer is behind a ubiquiti running NAT
>>> with the ubiquiti using a public IP behind one of our Mikrotik's. The
>>> Mikrotik does not have any ports blocked, either. Any ideas?
>>>
>>> Thank you,
>>> Michael Gawlowski
>>> Triad Wireless, LLC
>>
>>
>>

Re: [AFMUG] Strict NAT message on Xbox One?

[Ty Featherling]

Can you out them in the DMZ behind that radio?
On May 7, 2016 1:30 AM, "Jon Auer"  wrote:

> For game consoles you basically enable UPnP or deal with a bunch of port
> forwarding.
> Xbox One is fairly sane. WiiU literally wants all of UDP forwarded.
>
> On Fri, May 6, 2016 at 11:19 PM, Michael Gawlowski  > wrote:
>
>> Anyone had this issue? The customer is behind a ubiquiti running NAT with
>> the ubiquiti using a public IP behind one of our Mikrotik's. The Mikrotik
>> does not have any ports blocked, either. Any ideas?
>>
>> Thank you,
>> Michael Gawlowski
>> Triad Wireless, LLC
>
>
>

Re: [AFMUG] Strict NAT message on Xbox One?

[Jon Auer]

For game consoles you basically enable UPnP or deal with a bunch of port
forwarding.
Xbox One is fairly sane. WiiU literally wants all of UDP forwarded.

On Fri, May 6, 2016 at 11:19 PM, Michael Gawlowski 
wrote:

> Anyone had this issue? The customer is behind a ubiquiti running NAT with
> the ubiquiti using a public IP behind one of our Mikrotik's. The Mikrotik
> does not have any ports blocked, either. Any ideas?
>
> Thank you,
> Michael Gawlowski
> Triad Wireless, LLC

[AFMUG] Strict NAT message on Xbox One?

[Michael Gawlowski]

Anyone had this issue? The customer is behind a ubiquiti running NAT with the 
ubiquiti using a public IP behind one of our Mikrotik's. The Mikrotik does not 
have any ports blocked, either. Any ideas?

Thank you,
Michael Gawlowski
Triad Wireless, LLC