Re: [AFMUG] Teach me about tower lights

[Chuck McCown]

I have thought about doing something similar many times over the years.  I 
always figured I would have it learn the healthy current of the fully 
functional system with all lamps on and send an alarm if the current changed.  

From: Forrest Christian (List Account) 
Sent: Monday, November 27, 2017 6:19 PM
To: af 
Subject: [AFMUG] Teach me about tower lights

One of the most popular questions/product requests I get is about tower light 
monitoring. 

It used to be that I sent people toward one of the off-the shelf tower light 
monitors with a contact output and then monitored that with a base unit.  
Unfortunately it seems that most of these only work with incandescent, and most 
people are moving toward LED lights.   So I'm getting a lot of 'I haven't found 
one which will work with led lights'.

I know that many lighting controllers do some monitoring and have relay outputs 
for failures.   Recent feedback from customers seem to indicate that this is a 
lot like the fox watching the henhouse, in that often the lighting controller 
is the problem, especially with newer led lights which don't fail as much.

As a result of the above, I'm looking at doing a tower light monitor.   But I 
need some help understanding the reality of lighting towers, especially since 
things have changed over the years, and some older towers I'm sure are 
grandfathered under an older lighting/painting scheme.

The first question is related to flashing lights on a tower:  The FAA circular 
seems to state that all lights on a tower should flash together.   Are all 
tower lights all designed so that all of the flashing lights on a tower blink 
at the same time?   If so, it makes monitoring them a lot easier, since there's 
only two lighting levels to monitoring.

I'm also wondering about control systems, and how they are wired.   My google 
searches seem to indicate that most towers with blinking lights have a control 
box at the bottom which controls the lights on the tower (and sometimes provide 
a indicator of a certain type of failure).   Is this common?  What other 
systems are out there?

I am also intrigued by the daytime lighting systems, and probably need to think 
about monitoring these as well.  I'm assuming these are strobes.   Anyone 
install one of these?

I'm also curious about what type of power consumption the newer LED lights 
have, and if measuring AC current is really even practical on these.

Any other information anyone can point me toward would be appreciated.

-- 

  Forrest Christian CEO, PacketFlux Technologies, Inc.

  Tel: 406-449-3345 | Address: 3577 Countryside Road, Helena, MT 59602
  forre...@imach.com | http://www.packetflux.com

 

Re: [AFMUG] Teach me about tower lights

[Lewis Bergman]

All the new controllers that I have seen have a dry contract for failures.
Of course the controller has to be working. I am afraid there are about a
dozen manufacturers each with several models. That's a pretty big matrix.

We just installed one last week with steady side lights because the
customer didn't want to apply for the new E class system without sidelights
so they have an all LED system with solid side lights and 3 flashing
beacons.

It has a dry contract off the controller.

On Mon, Nov 27, 2017, 7:23 PM Chuck McCown  wrote:

> I have thought about doing something similar many times over the years.  I
> always figured I would have it learn the healthy current of the fully
> functional system with all lamps on and send an alarm if the current
> changed.
>
> *From:* Forrest Christian (List Account)
> *Sent:* Monday, November 27, 2017 6:19 PM
> *To:* af
> *Subject:* [AFMUG] Teach me about tower lights
>
> One of the most popular questions/product requests I get is about tower
> light monitoring.
>
> It used to be that I sent people toward one of the off-the shelf tower
> light monitors with a contact output and then monitored that with a base
> unit.  Unfortunately it seems that most of these only work with
> incandescent, and most people are moving toward LED lights.   So I'm
> getting a lot of 'I haven't found one which will work with led lights'.
>
> I know that many lighting controllers do some monitoring and have relay
> outputs for failures.   Recent feedback from customers seem to indicate
> that this is a lot like the fox watching the henhouse, in that often the
> lighting controller is the problem, especially with newer led lights which
> don't fail as much.
>
> As a result of the above, I'm looking at doing a tower light monitor.
> But I need some help understanding the reality of lighting towers,
> especially since things have changed over the years, and some older towers
> I'm sure are grandfathered under an older lighting/painting scheme.
>
> The first question is related to flashing lights on a tower:  The FAA
> circular seems to state that all lights on a tower should flash together.
> Are all tower lights all designed so that all of the flashing lights on a
> tower blink at the same time?   If so, it makes monitoring them a lot
> easier, since there's only two lighting levels to monitoring.
>
> I'm also wondering about control systems, and how they are wired.   My
> google searches seem to indicate that most towers with blinking lights have
> a control box at the bottom which controls the lights on the tower (and
> sometimes provide a indicator of a certain type of failure).   Is this
> common?  What other systems are out there?
>
> I am also intrigued by the daytime lighting systems, and probably need to
> think about monitoring these as well.  I'm assuming these are strobes.
> Anyone install one of these?
>
> I'm also curious about what type of power consumption the newer LED lights
> have, and if measuring AC current is really even practical on these.
>
> Any other information anyone can point me toward would be appreciated.
>
> --
> *Forrest Christian* *CEO**, PacketFlux Technologies, Inc.*
> Tel: 406-449-3345 | Address: 3577 Countryside Road, Helena, MT 59602
> 
> forre...@imach.com | http://www.packetflux.com
>   
>   
>
>

Re: [AFMUG] Teach me about tower lights

[Forrest Christian (List Account)]

Can you think of any reason why simply measuring consumed current and
making sure it matches an expected pattern (I.E. toggling between all-on
and "blink") with the correct frequency and during the right time of day
wouldn't work with any of the systems you've put in?

Of course with a contact or two input as an additional input to catch the
failures the controller knows about?



On Mon, Nov 27, 2017 at 7:22 PM, Lewis Bergman 
wrote:

> All the new controllers that I have seen have a dry contract for failures.
> Of course the controller has to be working. I am afraid there are about a
> dozen manufacturers each with several models. That's a pretty big matrix.
>
> We just installed one last week with steady side lights because the
> customer didn't want to apply for the new E class system without sidelights
> so they have an all LED system with solid side lights and 3 flashing
> beacons.
>
> It has a dry contract off the controller.
>
> On Mon, Nov 27, 2017, 7:23 PM Chuck McCown  wrote:
>
>> I have thought about doing something similar many times over the years.
>> I always figured I would have it learn the healthy current of the fully
>> functional system with all lamps on and send an alarm if the current
>> changed.
>>
>> *From:* Forrest Christian (List Account)
>> *Sent:* Monday, November 27, 2017 6:19 PM
>> *To:* af
>> *Subject:* [AFMUG] Teach me about tower lights
>>
>> One of the most popular questions/product requests I get is about tower
>> light monitoring.
>>
>> It used to be that I sent people toward one of the off-the shelf tower
>> light monitors with a contact output and then monitored that with a base
>> unit.  Unfortunately it seems that most of these only work with
>> incandescent, and most people are moving toward LED lights.   So I'm
>> getting a lot of 'I haven't found one which will work with led lights'.
>>
>> I know that many lighting controllers do some monitoring and have relay
>> outputs for failures.   Recent feedback from customers seem to indicate
>> that this is a lot like the fox watching the henhouse, in that often the
>> lighting controller is the problem, especially with newer led lights which
>> don't fail as much.
>>
>> As a result of the above, I'm looking at doing a tower light monitor.
>> But I need some help understanding the reality of lighting towers,
>> especially since things have changed over the years, and some older towers
>> I'm sure are grandfathered under an older lighting/painting scheme.
>>
>> The first question is related to flashing lights on a tower:  The FAA
>> circular seems to state that all lights on a tower should flash together.
>> Are all tower lights all designed so that all of the flashing lights on a
>> tower blink at the same time?   If so, it makes monitoring them a lot
>> easier, since there's only two lighting levels to monitoring.
>>
>> I'm also wondering about control systems, and how they are wired.   My
>> google searches seem to indicate that most towers with blinking lights have
>> a control box at the bottom which controls the lights on the tower (and
>> sometimes provide a indicator of a certain type of failure).   Is this
>> common?  What other systems are out there?
>>
>> I am also intrigued by the daytime lighting systems, and probably need to
>> think about monitoring these as well.  I'm assuming these are strobes.
>> Anyone install one of these?
>>
>> I'm also curious about what type of power consumption the newer LED
>> lights have, and if measuring AC current is really even practical on these.
>>
>> Any other information anyone can point me toward would be appreciated.
>>
>> --
>> *Forrest Christian* *CEO**, PacketFlux Technologies, Inc.*
>> Tel: 406-449-3345 | Address: 3577 Countryside Road, Helena, MT 59602
>> 
>> forre...@imach.com | http://www.packetflux.com
>> 
>>   
>>
>>


-- 
*Forrest Christian* *CEO**, PacketFlux Technologies, Inc.*
Tel: 406-449-3345 | Address: 3577 Countryside Road, Helena, MT 59602
forre...@imach.com | http://www.packetflux.com
  

Re: [AFMUG] Teach me about tower lights

[Lewis Bergman]

I would think consumed current would work as long as the time resolution is
fine enough, which I am sure yours is. Those LED flashes don't last long. I
have asked one of our suppliers we buy the most from to have an engineer
give me the specs so you can see what you are dealing with. In addition,
many use some very large caps on the older strobe models so you don't see
any difference on the incoming side. I haven't seen any of the LED models
with big caps. I wouldn't think you would need to monitor before the
controller as your draw should definitely be different than normal, at
least at night, when the controller isn't working correctly.

The biggest issue I would think would be how to get that current initially.
With all the different configs out there and different manufacturers the
number of combinations become enormous. Some designs actually have the
controller inside the top beacon (for some ungodly reason). There are a lot
of different LED designs with different numbers, quality, and lumen of
LED's.

Maybe some kind of learning routine where you set it to learn for 1 minute,
it watches the pattern of draw, then sets that as normal for that time
period, then it does the same thing at midnight. I guess midnight would
work except nearer the poles. After that I would give your day/night
timings a good bit of slack as some are not the best at mounting their
photocells in good locations. Maybe 30 minutes to an hour each way of sun
set/rise.

On Mon, Nov 27, 2017 at 10:21 PM Forrest Christian (List Account) <
li...@packetflux.com> wrote:

> Can you think of any reason why simply measuring consumed current and
> making sure it matches an expected pattern (I.E. toggling between all-on
> and "blink") with the correct frequency and during the right time of day
> wouldn't work with any of the systems you've put in?
>
> Of course with a contact or two input as an additional input to catch the
> failures the controller knows about?
>
>
>
> On Mon, Nov 27, 2017 at 7:22 PM, Lewis Bergman 
> wrote:
>
>> All the new controllers that I have seen have a dry contract for
>> failures. Of course the controller has to be working. I am afraid there are
>> about a dozen manufacturers each with several models. That's a pretty big
>> matrix.
>>
>> We just installed one last week with steady side lights because the
>> customer didn't want to apply for the new E class system without sidelights
>> so they have an all LED system with solid side lights and 3 flashing
>> beacons.
>>
>> It has a dry contract off the controller.
>>
> On Mon, Nov 27, 2017, 7:23 PM Chuck McCown  wrote:
>>
> I have thought about doing something similar many times over the years.  I
>>> always figured I would have it learn the healthy current of the fully
>>> functional system with all lamps on and send an alarm if the current
>>> changed.
>>>
>>> *From:* Forrest Christian (List Account)
>>> *Sent:* Monday, November 27, 2017 6:19 PM
>>> *To:* af
>>> *Subject:* [AFMUG] Teach me about tower lights
>>>
>>> One of the most popular questions/product requests I get is about tower
>>> light monitoring.
>>>
>>> It used to be that I sent people toward one of the off-the shelf tower
>>> light monitors with a contact output and then monitored that with a base
>>> unit.  Unfortunately it seems that most of these only work with
>>> incandescent, and most people are moving toward LED lights.   So I'm
>>> getting a lot of 'I haven't found one which will work with led lights'.
>>>
>>> I know that many lighting controllers do some monitoring and have relay
>>> outputs for failures.   Recent feedback from customers seem to indicate
>>> that this is a lot like the fox watching the henhouse, in that often the
>>> lighting controller is the problem, especially with newer led lights which
>>> don't fail as much.
>>>
>>> As a result of the above, I'm looking at doing a tower light monitor.
>>> But I need some help understanding the reality of lighting towers,
>>> especially since things have changed over the years, and some older towers
>>> I'm sure are grandfathered under an older lighting/painting scheme.
>>>
>>> The first question is related to flashing lights on a tower:  The FAA
>>> circular seems to state that all lights on a tower should flash together.
>>> Are all tower lights all designed so that all of the flashing lights on a
>>> tower blink at the same time?   If so, it makes monitoring them a lot
>>> easier, since there's only two lighting levels to monitoring.
>>>
>>> I'm also wondering about control systems, and how they are wired.   My
>>> google searches seem to indicate that most towers with blinking lights have
>>> a control box at the bottom which controls the lights on the tower (and
>>> sometimes provide a indicator of a certain type of failure).   Is this
>>> common?  What other systems are out there?
>>>
>>> I am also intrigued by the daytime lighting systems, and probably need
>>> to think about monitoring these as well.  I'm assuming these are strobes.

Re: [AFMUG] Teach me about tower lights

[chuck]

Yeah, there are all kinds of missing pulse detector algorithms that could be 
used.  
If  you did it on the current input, it could even be done with split core 
current transformers.
Simple hardware.  Painless install.  Pain is in the software.  

From: Lewis Bergman 
Sent: Tuesday, November 28, 2017 8:13 AM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Teach me about tower lights

I would think consumed current would work as long as the time resolution is 
fine enough, which I am sure yours is. Those LED flashes don't last long. I 
have asked one of our suppliers we buy the most from to have an engineer give 
me the specs so you can see what you are dealing with. In addition, many use 
some very large caps on the older strobe models so you don't see any difference 
on the incoming side. I haven't seen any of the LED models with big caps. I 
wouldn't think you would need to monitor before the controller as your draw 
should definitely be different than normal, at least at night, when the 
controller isn't working correctly.  

The biggest issue I would think would be how to get that current initially. 
With all the different configs out there and different manufacturers the number 
of combinations become enormous. Some designs actually have the controller 
inside the top beacon (for some ungodly reason). There are a lot of different 
LED designs with different numbers, quality, and lumen of LED's.

Maybe some kind of learning routine where you set it to learn for 1 minute, it 
watches the pattern of draw, then sets that as normal for that time period, 
then it does the same thing at midnight. I guess midnight would work except 
nearer the poles. After that I would give your day/night timings a good bit of 
slack as some are not the best at mounting their photocells in good locations. 
Maybe 30 minutes to an hour each way of sun set/rise.

On Mon, Nov 27, 2017 at 10:21 PM Forrest Christian (List Account) 
 wrote:

  Can you think of any reason why simply measuring consumed current and making 
sure it matches an expected pattern (I.E. toggling between all-on and "blink") 
with the correct frequency and during the right time of day wouldn't work with 
any of the systems you've put in? 

  Of course with a contact or two input as an additional input to catch the 
failures the controller knows about?



  On Mon, Nov 27, 2017 at 7:22 PM, Lewis Bergman  
wrote:

All the new controllers that I have seen have a dry contract for failures. 
Of course the controller has to be working. I am afraid there are about a dozen 
manufacturers each with several models. That's a pretty big matrix.

We just installed one last week with steady side lights because the 
customer didn't want to apply for the new E class system without sidelights so 
they have an all LED system with solid side lights and 3 flashing beacons.

It has a dry contract off the controller. 

On Mon, Nov 27, 2017, 7:23 PM Chuck McCown  wrote:

  I have thought about doing something similar many times over the years.  
I always figured I would have it learn the healthy current of the fully 
functional system with all lamps on and send an alarm if the current changed.  

  From: Forrest Christian (List Account) 
  Sent: Monday, November 27, 2017 6:19 PM
  To: af 
  Subject: [AFMUG] Teach me about tower lights

  One of the most popular questions/product requests I get is about tower 
light monitoring. 

  It used to be that I sent people toward one of the off-the shelf tower 
light monitors with a contact output and then monitored that with a base unit.  
Unfortunately it seems that most of these only work with incandescent, and most 
people are moving toward LED lights.   So I'm getting a lot of 'I haven't found 
one which will work with led lights'.

  I know that many lighting controllers do some monitoring and have relay 
outputs for failures.   Recent feedback from customers seem to indicate that 
this is a lot like the fox watching the henhouse, in that often the lighting 
controller is the problem, especially with newer led lights which don't fail as 
much.

  As a result of the above, I'm looking at doing a tower light monitor.   
But I need some help understanding the reality of lighting towers, especially 
since things have changed over the years, and some older towers I'm sure are 
grandfathered under an older lighting/painting scheme.

  The first question is related to flashing lights on a tower:  The FAA 
circular seems to state that all lights on a tower should flash together.   Are 
all tower lights all designed so that all of the flashing lights on a tower 
blink at the same time?   If so, it makes monitoring them a lot easier, since 
there's only two lighting levels to monitoring.

  I'm also wondering about control systems, and how they are wired.   My 
google searches seem to indi