Re: [AFMUG] Using AirFiber 5x dishes with non-Airfiber radios
BOTH sides should be slant. That's it. One slant and one VH you'll lose I think 15db? Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 On Thu, Aug 11, 2016 at 2:57 PM, Paul McCall wrote: > Probably a dump question, but is there any downside with using a > AF‑5G30‑S45 to use with Mikrotik radios? I wouldn’t expect the X polarity > to hurt performance, but don’t want to assume. > > > > We have some links to put up that long term may become AirFiber 5X links, > thus the thought. > > > > > > > > Paul McCall, President > > PDMNet, Inc. / Florida Broadband, Inc. > > 658 Old Dixie Highway > > Vero Beach, FL 32962 > > 772-564-6800 > > pa...@pdmnet.net > > www.pdmnet.com > > www.floridabroadband.com > > > > >
Re: [AFMUG] Using AirFiber 5x dishes with non-Airfiber radios
You'll lose 1-3db (depends how the implementation sums signal strengths) if one is side slant polarization and the other V/H, but the path may be only MIMO-A, depends how good the wi-fi chipset is at distinguishing both signals as being different by their phase irregardless of both coming in on both RF ports at similar strengths (but out of phase). On Thu, Aug 11, 2016 at 11:59 AM, Josh Luthman wrote: > BOTH sides should be slant. That's it. > > One slant and one VH you'll lose I think 15db? > > > Josh Luthman > Office: 937-552-2340 > Direct: 937-552-2343 > 1100 Wayne St > Suite 1337 > Troy, OH 45373 > > On Thu, Aug 11, 2016 at 2:57 PM, Paul McCall wrote: > >> Probably a dump question, but is there any downside with using a >> AF‑5G30‑S45 to use with Mikrotik radios? I wouldn’t expect the X polarity >> to hurt performance, but don’t want to assume. >> >> >> >> We have some links to put up that long term may become AirFiber 5X links, >> thus the thought. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Paul McCall, President >> >> PDMNet, Inc. / Florida Broadband, Inc. >> >> 658 Old Dixie Highway >> >> Vero Beach, FL 32962 >> >> 772-564-6800 >> >> pa...@pdmnet.net >> >> www.pdmnet.com >> >> www.floridabroadband.com >> >> >> >> >> > >
Re: [AFMUG] Using AirFiber 5x dishes with non-Airfiber radios
You lose, but not quite that bad: 20*Log (Cos(angle)) = 3.01 dB From: Josh Luthman Sent: Thursday, August 11, 2016 12:59 PM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Using AirFiber 5x dishes with non-Airfiber radios BOTH sides should be slant. That's it. One slant and one VH you'll lose I think 15db? Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 On Thu, Aug 11, 2016 at 2:57 PM, Paul McCall wrote: Probably a dump question, but is there any downside with using a AF‑5G30‑S45 to use with Mikrotik radios? I wouldn’t expect the X polarity to hurt performance, but don’t want to assume. We have some links to put up that long term may become AirFiber 5X links, thus the thought. Paul McCall, President PDMNet, Inc. / Florida Broadband, Inc. 658 Old Dixie Highway Vero Beach, FL 32962 772-564-6800 pa...@pdmnet.net www.pdmnet.com www.floridabroadband.com
Re: [AFMUG] Using AirFiber 5x dishes with non-Airfiber radios
Didn't cambium say that you can receive slant using a hpol/vpol cpe and not loose any performance? Or is that with cambium CPE's only? On Thu, Aug 11, 2016 at 12:05 PM, Chuck McCown wrote: > You lose, but not quite that bad: > > 20*Log (Cos(angle)) = 3.01 dB > > > *From:* Josh Luthman > *Sent:* Thursday, August 11, 2016 12:59 PM > *To:* af@afmug.com > *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Using AirFiber 5x dishes with non-Airfiber radios > > BOTH sides should be slant. That's it. > > One slant and one VH you'll lose I think 15db? > > > Josh Luthman > Office: 937-552-2340 > Direct: 937-552-2343 > 1100 Wayne St > Suite 1337 > Troy, OH 45373 > > On Thu, Aug 11, 2016 at 2:57 PM, Paul McCall wrote: > >> Probably a dump question, but is there any downside with using a >> AF‑5G30‑S45 to use with Mikrotik radios? I wouldn’t expect the X polarity >> to hurt performance, but don’t want to assume. >> >> >> >> We have some links to put up that long term may become AirFiber 5X links, >> thus the thought. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Paul McCall, President >> >> PDMNet, Inc. / Florida Broadband, Inc. >> >> 658 Old Dixie Highway >> >> Vero Beach, FL 32962 >> >> 772-564-6800 >> >> pa...@pdmnet.net >> >> www.pdmnet.com >> >> www.floridabroadband.com >> >> >> >> >> > >
Re: [AFMUG] Using AirFiber 5x dishes with non-Airfiber radios
Yes they did say that, and I read the white paper, and I think I understood it at the time. I think they used some kind of special sauce to make that true though. I don’t think it would apply to any two radios. From: TJ Trout Sent: Thursday, August 11, 2016 1:09 PM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Using AirFiber 5x dishes with non-Airfiber radios Didn't cambium say that you can receive slant using a hpol/vpol cpe and not loose any performance? Or is that with cambium CPE's only? On Thu, Aug 11, 2016 at 12:05 PM, Chuck McCown wrote: You lose, but not quite that bad: 20*Log (Cos(angle)) = 3.01 dB From: Josh Luthman Sent: Thursday, August 11, 2016 12:59 PM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Using AirFiber 5x dishes with non-Airfiber radios BOTH sides should be slant. That's it. One slant and one VH you'll lose I think 15db? Josh Luthman Office: 937-552-2340 Direct: 937-552-2343 1100 Wayne St Suite 1337 Troy, OH 45373 On Thu, Aug 11, 2016 at 2:57 PM, Paul McCall wrote: Probably a dump question, but is there any downside with using a AF‑5G30‑S45 to use with Mikrotik radios? I wouldn’t expect the X polarity to hurt performance, but don’t want to assume. We have some links to put up that long term may become AirFiber 5X links, thus the thought. Paul McCall, President PDMNet, Inc. / Florida Broadband, Inc. 658 Old Dixie Highway Vero Beach, FL 32962 772-564-6800 pa...@pdmnet.net www.pdmnet.com www.floridabroadband.com
Re: [AFMUG] Using AirFiber 5x dishes with non-Airfiber radios
You lose ~3db from the cross to linear polarization difference. But I assume you win ~3db from the incoming signal now being received and summed by 2 antennas. >From my understanding, say you have 30db signal. Instead of getting signal A on port A at 30db and signal B on port B at 30db, you get: -signal A on port X at 27db and port Y at 27db, the latter out of phase 90deg due to polarization -signal B on port Y at 27db and port X at 27db, the latter out of phase 90deg due to polarization The chipset used in ePMP sums up both (out-of-phase) signals for A and gets a 30db signal, same for signal B. Whether the chipset in other wifi products does the same is unsure, but I assume most modern Atheros chips do it. On Thu, Aug 11, 2016 at 12:17 PM, Chuck McCown wrote: > Yes they did say that, and I read the white paper, and I think I > understood it at the time. I think they used some kind of special sauce to > make that true though. I don’t think it would apply to any two radios. > > *From:* TJ Trout > *Sent:* Thursday, August 11, 2016 1:09 PM > *To:* af@afmug.com > *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Using AirFiber 5x dishes with non-Airfiber radios > > Didn't cambium say that you can receive slant using a hpol/vpol cpe and > not loose any performance? Or is that with cambium CPE's only? > > On Thu, Aug 11, 2016 at 12:05 PM, Chuck McCown wrote: > >> You lose, but not quite that bad: >> >> 20*Log (Cos(angle)) = 3.01 dB >> >> >> *From:* Josh Luthman >> *Sent:* Thursday, August 11, 2016 12:59 PM >> *To:* af@afmug.com >> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Using AirFiber 5x dishes with non-Airfiber radios >> >> BOTH sides should be slant. That's it. >> >> One slant and one VH you'll lose I think 15db? >> >> >> Josh Luthman >> Office: 937-552-2340 >> Direct: 937-552-2343 >> 1100 Wayne St >> Suite 1337 >> Troy, OH 45373 >> >> On Thu, Aug 11, 2016 at 2:57 PM, Paul McCall wrote: >> >>> Probably a dump question, but is there any downside with using a >>> AF‑5G30‑S45 to use with Mikrotik radios? I wouldn’t expect the X polarity >>> to hurt performance, but don’t want to assume. >>> >>> >>> >>> We have some links to put up that long term may become AirFiber 5X >>> links, thus the thought. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Paul McCall, President >>> >>> PDMNet, Inc. / Florida Broadband, Inc. >>> >>> 658 Old Dixie Highway >>> >>> Vero Beach, FL 32962 >>> >>> 772-564-6800 >>> >>> pa...@pdmnet.net >>> >>> www.pdmnet.com >>> >>> www.floridabroadband.com >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> > >
Re: [AFMUG] Using AirFiber 5x dishes with non-Airfiber radios
It's built into the chipset of the ePMP 1000 (which is the same as UBNT M).
And think about high multipath indoor environments. You pretty much have
to rely on phase detection capabilities to get MIMO.
On 8/11/2016 2:17 PM, Chuck McCown wrote:
Yes they did say that, and I read the white paper, and I think I
understood it at the time. I think they used some kind of special
sauce to make that true though. I don’t think it would apply to any
two radios.
*From:* TJ Trout <mailto:t...@voltbb.com>
*Sent:* Thursday, August 11, 2016 1:09 PM
*To:* af@afmug.com <mailto:af@afmug.com>
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Using AirFiber 5x dishes with non-Airfiber radios
Didn't cambium say that you can receive slant using a hpol/vpol cpe
and not loose any performance? Or is that with cambium CPE's only?
On Thu, Aug 11, 2016 at 12:05 PM, Chuck McCown <mailto:ch...@wbmfg.com>> wrote:
You lose, but not quite that bad:
20*Log (Cos(angle)) = 3.01 dB
*From:* Josh Luthman <mailto:j...@imaginenetworksllc.com>
*Sent:* Thursday, August 11, 2016 12:59 PM
*To:* af@afmug.com <mailto:af@afmug.com>
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Using AirFiber 5x dishes with non-Airfiber
radios
BOTH sides should be slant. That's it.
One slant and one VH you'll lose I think 15db?
Josh Luthman
Office: 937-552-2340
Direct: 937-552-2343
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373
On Thu, Aug 11, 2016 at 2:57 PM, Paul McCall mailto:pa...@pdmnet.net>> wrote:
Probably a dump question, but is there any downside with using
a AF‑5G30‑S45 to use with Mikrotik radios? I wouldn’t expect
the X polarity to hurt performance, but don’t want to assume.
We have some links to put up that long term may become
AirFiber 5X links, thus the thought.
Paul McCall, President
PDMNet, Inc. / Florida Broadband, Inc.
658 Old Dixie Highway
Vero Beach, FL 32962
772-564-6800
pa...@pdmnet.net <mailto:pa...@pdmnet.net>
www.pdmnet.com <http://www.pdmnet.com>
www.floridabroadband.com <http://www.floridabroadband.com>
Re: [AFMUG] Using AirFiber 5x dishes with non-Airfiber radios
Yeah, it seems to work fine to use slant at one end, and h/v at the other with ePMP, ubnt M and Canopy 450... But airfibers don't seem to like it at all. On Aug 11, 2016 2:30 PM, "George Skorup" wrote: > It's built into the chipset of the ePMP 1000 (which is the same as UBNT M). > > And think about high multipath indoor environments. You pretty much have > to rely on phase detection capabilities to get MIMO. > > On 8/11/2016 2:17 PM, Chuck McCown wrote: > > Yes they did say that, and I read the white paper, and I think I > understood it at the time. I think they used some kind of special sauce to > make that true though. I don’t think it would apply to any two radios. > > *From:* TJ Trout > *Sent:* Thursday, August 11, 2016 1:09 PM > *To:* af@afmug.com > *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Using AirFiber 5x dishes with non-Airfiber radios > > Didn't cambium say that you can receive slant using a hpol/vpol cpe and > not loose any performance? Or is that with cambium CPE's only? > > On Thu, Aug 11, 2016 at 12:05 PM, Chuck McCown wrote: > >> You lose, but not quite that bad: >> >> 20*Log (Cos(angle)) = 3.01 dB >> >> >> *From:* Josh Luthman >> *Sent:* Thursday, August 11, 2016 12:59 PM >> *To:* af@afmug.com >> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Using AirFiber 5x dishes with non-Airfiber radios >> >> BOTH sides should be slant. That's it. >> >> One slant and one VH you'll lose I think 15db? >> >> >> Josh Luthman >> Office: 937-552-2340 >> Direct: 937-552-2343 >> 1100 Wayne St >> Suite 1337 >> Troy, OH 45373 >> >> On Thu, Aug 11, 2016 at 2:57 PM, Paul McCall wrote: >> >>> Probably a dump question, but is there any downside with using a >>> AF‑5G30‑S45 to use with Mikrotik radios? I wouldn’t expect the X polarity >>> to hurt performance, but don’t want to assume. >>> >>> >>> >>> We have some links to put up that long term may become AirFiber 5X >>> links, thus the thought. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Paul McCall, President >>> >>> PDMNet, Inc. / Florida Broadband, Inc. >>> >>> 658 Old Dixie Highway >>> >>> Vero Beach, FL 32962 >>> >>> 772-564-6800 >>> >>> pa...@pdmnet.net >>> >>> www.pdmnet.com >>> >>> www.floridabroadband.com >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> > > > >
Re: [AFMUG] Using AirFiber 5x dishes with non-Airfiber radios
I imagine it takes a lot of processing power to do so and it could be they used most of the spare AF5 FPGA gates for the 1024QAM functionality. On Aug 11, 2016 12:47 PM, "Mathew Howard" wrote: > Yeah, it seems to work fine to use slant at one end, and h/v at the other > with ePMP, ubnt M and Canopy 450... But airfibers don't seem to like it at > all. > > On Aug 11, 2016 2:30 PM, "George Skorup" wrote: > >> It's built into the chipset of the ePMP 1000 (which is the same as UBNT >> M). >> >> And think about high multipath indoor environments. You pretty much have >> to rely on phase detection capabilities to get MIMO. >> >> On 8/11/2016 2:17 PM, Chuck McCown wrote: >> >> Yes they did say that, and I read the white paper, and I think I >> understood it at the time. I think they used some kind of special sauce to >> make that true though. I don’t think it would apply to any two radios. >> >> *From:* TJ Trout >> *Sent:* Thursday, August 11, 2016 1:09 PM >> *To:* af@afmug.com >> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Using AirFiber 5x dishes with non-Airfiber radios >> >> Didn't cambium say that you can receive slant using a hpol/vpol cpe and >> not loose any performance? Or is that with cambium CPE's only? >> >> On Thu, Aug 11, 2016 at 12:05 PM, Chuck McCown wrote: >> >>> You lose, but not quite that bad: >>> >>> 20*Log (Cos(angle)) = 3.01 dB >>> >>> >>> *From:* Josh Luthman >>> *Sent:* Thursday, August 11, 2016 12:59 PM >>> *To:* af@afmug.com >>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Using AirFiber 5x dishes with non-Airfiber radios >>> >>> BOTH sides should be slant. That's it. >>> >>> One slant and one VH you'll lose I think 15db? >>> >>> >>> Josh Luthman >>> Office: 937-552-2340 >>> Direct: 937-552-2343 >>> 1100 Wayne St >>> Suite 1337 >>> Troy, OH 45373 >>> >>> On Thu, Aug 11, 2016 at 2:57 PM, Paul McCall wrote: >>> >>>> Probably a dump question, but is there any downside with using a >>>> AF‑5G30‑S45 to use with Mikrotik radios? I wouldn’t expect the X polarity >>>> to hurt performance, but don’t want to assume. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> We have some links to put up that long term may become AirFiber 5X >>>> links, thus the thought. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Paul McCall, President >>>> >>>> PDMNet, Inc. / Florida Broadband, Inc. >>>> >>>> 658 Old Dixie Highway >>>> >>>> Vero Beach, FL 32962 >>>> >>>> 772-564-6800 >>>> >>>> pa...@pdmnet.net >>>> >>>> www.pdmnet.com >>>> >>>> www.floridabroadband.com >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >>
