Re: DIS: Economy and Games

[Owen Jacobson]

> On Sep 26, 2017, at 12:58 AM, VJ Rada  wrote:
> 
> BTW whose idea was it that paying agora for proposals and cfjs would
> cost LESS when agora had LESS money? Can we like insta-fix that?

This was an intentional design decision. From a discussion I had with nichdel 
at the time:

On 06/13/17 23:39, Owen Jacobson wrote:

> So, in short, these actions get less expensive as Agora runs out of money? 
> Interesting. The incentives aren’t totally clear to me - which is probably a 
> good thing.

On Jun 14, 2017, at 1:38 AM, Nic Evans  wrote:

> Do you mean 'incentives' as in 'encouraging/discouraging gameplay' or do
> you mean it as 'economic strategy'? For the former, a high FV comes from
> a high reserve which happens either because of stamp creation or because
> more work is being made (CFJs and unpassed proposals) than is being
> resolved to the benefit of Agora (judged CFJs and passed proposals).
> High FV discourages making more work while encouraging success. Note
> that w/o objection actions don't stop the other end resulting in pay, so
> a prohibitively high cost should resolve itself.

nichdel has commented elsewhere that a boom-bust cycle was an intentional 
choice, and is not a defect. However, G.’s critique that FV fluctuations are 
too abrupt to be a meaningful incentive system probably applies to FV as 
backpressure, too.

That said, if you think it’s not working, change it! It’ll take at least a 
couple of weeks to get a proposal through that replaces FV with some other 
system, so we’d still have time to live with FV for a bit longer and decide 
whether it’s working for us. If someone (hi) feels strongly e can also float a 
counterproposal that makes some other change.

-o



signature.asc
Description: Message signed with OpenPGP

Re: DIS: Re: OFF: [Promotor] Distribution of Proposals 7899-7904

[Owen Jacobson]

NttPF.

-o

> On Sep 25, 2017, at 3:42 AM, Gaelan Steele  wrote:
> 
> 
>> On Sep 24, 2017, at 4:53 PM, Aris Merchant 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> I hereby distribute each listed proposal, initiating the Agoran
>> Decision of whether to adopt it, and removing it from the proposal
>> pool. For this decision, the vote collector is the Assessor, the
>> quorum is 2.0 and the valid options are FOR and AGAINST (PRESENT is
>> also a valid vote).
>> 
>> 
>> ID Author(s) AI   TitlePender  Pend fee
>> ---
>> 7899*  G.2.0  Arbitor's Union  G.  1 AP
> FOR
>> 7900*  o 2.0  Come What Mayo   1 AP
> AGAINST as per my pledge
>> 7901*  o, [1]3.0  Make Your Home Shine o   6 sh.
> AGAINST - while this is generally a good change, I really don’t like “calling 
> in” being something which is simply done by consent, without any rule-defined 
> connection to the text of the pledge. Also, contracts.
>> 7902*  G.1.0  Switch no-opsG.  1 AP
> FOR
>> 7903*  G.2.0  Numerical switches v2G.  1 AP
> FOR
>> 7904*  G., 天火狐 1.0  Such is Karma v2 Aris1 AP
> FOR



signature.asc
Description: Message signed with OpenPGP

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: [Proposal] Fixing Fingers

[Kerim Aydin]

Ah, found it.  It was called by o on Sept 7 (a few days before ais523 
deregistered) and never got a number or judge.  Will fix.

On Tue, 26 Sep 2017, VJ Rada wrote:
> No, I meant CFJ. There was one called by Orjan contending that,
> because my proposal "minor fixes" that fixed that loophole referred to
> a rule as "a rule with no number", which was wrong by the time the
> proposal passed, the fix did not work.
> 
> On Tue, Sep 26, 2017 at 2:24 PM, Kerim Aydin  wrote:
> >
> >
> > Oh you mean "proposal" not CFJ ... that's in the late-to-assess batch.
> >
> > On Tue, 26 Sep 2017, VJ Rada wrote:
> >> Card Reform & Expansion, from the really massive distribution a couple
> >> of weeks ago.
> >>
> >> On Tue, Sep 26, 2017 at 2:17 PM, Kerim Aydin  
> >> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Which one was that?  The only unresolved ones are on different subjects
> >> > I think.
> >> >
> >> > On Tue, 26 Sep 2017, VJ Rada wrote:
> >> >> Did the CFJ on fixing the CoE loophole ever get resolved? Not sure it 
> >> >> did.
> >> >>
> >> >> On Tue, Sep 26, 2017 at 2:06 PM, Aris Merchant
> >> >>  wrote:
> >> >> > On Mon, Sep 25, 2017 at 9:03 PM, Owen Jacobson  
> >> >> > wrote:
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >>> On Sep 25, 2017, at 11:49 PM, VJ Rada  wrote:
> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >>> I create and pend with 1 shiny the following
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Aris, your reward package is ready for pickup.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> -o
> >> >> >
> >> >> > There's a 24 hour time limit.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > -Aris
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> --
> >> >> From V.J. Rada
> >> >>
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> From V.J. Rada
> >>
> >
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> From V.J. Rada
>

Re: DIS: Economy and Games

[Alex Smith]

On Tue, 2017-09-26 at 00:56 -0400, Owen Jacobson wrote:
> I’d be open to replacing the Estate auction with a lottery of players
> with the fewest number of Estates, or a straight lottery. My original
> intention was specifically to create a high-value item, so that
> shinies would return to Agora somewhat regularly, but tying it to
> Voting Strength seems to have made Estates “too good to use,” and I
> expect that once all five are auctioned off, the only time they’ll go
> back to Agora to be auctioned again will be due to deregistrations.

Temporary voting power boosters are pretty weird; they're almost
useless in 99% of circumstances (because most players don't strongly
feel about whether a particular proposal passes, and if they do, they
can normally just convince other players to vote with them unless some
other player feels equally strongly in the other direction). The
exception is pure scam/economic proposals that are intended to benefit
the proposer and nobody else but maybe some co-conspirators, but those
are very rare. They also tend to lead, unfortunately, to dictatorship
scams if anyone finds a way to farm arbitrary numbers of them in finite
time, something that's happened at least once in the past (it's why
there's a large number of contracts with numerical names deregistered
in a Writ of FAGE, and which still show in the Registrar's Report).

(Admittedly, my favourite piece of Agoran gameplay was when I was out
of ideas for ways to win and just proposed one of those things on the
spur of the moment with no preparation. I actually managed to get it
through, too, with a series of bribes to other players for their votes,
and exploiting flawed wording and ambiguities in some of the
conditional votes that players attempted. Apart from me, G. came out
best from it as e gave me a very clear and unambiguous offer for eir
votes at a fair exchange rate, and thus it was one of the few offers I
accepted. Still, it's worth noting that there was *not*, as far as I
remember, a way to instantly boost voting power at the time.)

Anyway, this normally means that temporary voting power boosts at Agora
are undervalued / treated as almost worthless unless someone manages to
accumulate enough of them to force a proposal through. Limiting the
number of Estates in existence to 5 was enough to effectively prevent
that, so Estates were treated as low-value (and as was seen, didn't go
very far at auction). My bid for an Estate was mostly speculation on
its future value (especially with Agoraculture); I had no plans to
spend it, because spending it doesn't really produce a useful effect.

I have no idea why the bidding for the Estate after that ended up in
the stratosphere, but suspect that it was mostly just CuddleBeam being
CuddleBeam.

-- 
ais523

Re: DIS: Economy and Games

[VJ Rada]

BTW whose idea was it that paying agora for proposals and cfjs would
cost LESS when agora had LESS money? Can we like insta-fix that?

On Tue, Sep 26, 2017 at 2:56 PM, Owen Jacobson  wrote:
>
>> On Sep 23, 2017, at 4:26 PM, Kerim Aydin  wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sat, 23 Sep 2017, Owen Jacobson wrote:
>>> As for the gerontocracy argument: Money is an inherently gerontocratic 
>>> system.
>>> It abstracts value from labor in a way that allows arbitrary allocation.
>>
>> Ok, I've been mulling this over for the past week or so, and some broad 
>> thoughts.
>>
>> I think we should step away from thinking of this in terms of Economies and
>> think of it in terms of Game Design.
>
> Shinies have already been a spectacular success at incentivizing adding to 
> the Story of Agora, per nichdel’s essay last year.
>
>> On the supply side, what we have is classic exponential asset growth.  Base
>> assets let you get things which then let your assets grow faster (I'm
>> particularly thinking of the recent Agoraculture here).  This can be very
>> fun - the fun part of the grind games is when your properties start *really*
>> producing.  But the problem is that it leads to early determination of
>> winners versus losers, and if the game lasts too long, it's a frustrating
>> slog for the losers.  In a game with no fixed end (e.g. real life), this is
>> the gerontocracy.
>>
>> It's greatly exacerbated by the fact that distribution of valuable assets
>> is via Auction.  Auctions are inherently exponential (a slight lead in
>> your base asset leads to you winning a big valuable asset).  Moreover,
>> right now, the auction properties are far too rare, so you have to compete
>> directly with the gerontocracy to buy in.  My main reason to hoard right now
>> is to have any chance in an auction.
>
> I’d be open to replacing the Estate auction with a lottery of players with 
> the fewest number of Estates, or a straight lottery. My original intention 
> was specifically to create a high-value item, so that shinies would return to 
> Agora somewhat regularly, but tying it to Voting Strength seems to have made 
> Estates “too good to use,” and I expect that once all five are auctioned off, 
> the only time they’ll go back to Agora to be auctioned again will be due to 
> deregistrations. Agoraculture aggravates this by allowing Estates to produce 
> a steady income so long as players are willing to buy Comestibles. 
> (Separately, I suspect that the Voting Strength effects of Comestibles are 
> going to be… interesting. babelian did something smart by giving them a 
> best-before date, which should limit the carnage.)
>
> The last round of randomness framework work you did is more than sufficient 
> to support a lottery, and while I _dislike_ nondeterministic play, I think 
> it’s probably an improvement over a straight auction.
>
> Even if we had an effective way for players to form a cartel - which we 
> don’t, writing the appropriate Organization is significantly too hard, and 
> setting up an Agency with the right properties requires trusting someone with 
> the giant pot of Shinies, and the resulting Estate, to a degree that’s 
> probably impractical - what we’d probably end up with is a cartel of 
> gerontocrats, or a classic capitalist oligarchy.
>
>> I think the solution is some minimum income, and drastically reducing the
>> buy-in difficulties for auctions (I'd do that through increased land).
>
> I picked five estates when I believed that estates would cycle back to Agora 
> somewhat regularly, but that hasn’t happened. If we keep auctions, I’d be in 
> favour of a multi-part fix:
>
> * Create significantly more estates - maybe another five, maybe another ten.
>
> * Significantly shorten the auction period. Three days should be sufficient. 
> Add some timing-scam padding to ensure that it’s not two days of silence 
> followed by a late-night flurry of messages.
>
> * Auction an estate off weekly to get them into circulation faster.
>
>> On the spending side:  quite frankly, we don't have enough diversity of
>> things that actually buy game advantage to be worth spending on.  We need
>> to add different pathways to accumulation and specialization.
>
> If you’ll humour adding steps for steps’ sakes, the “farm switch” system 
> suggests a system of land improvements. We could bring back medals, but 
> create a production chain for them:
>
> * An estate with an improvement cannot be cashed in for voting strength. 
> Removing or replacing an improvement costs shinies and requires a notice 
> period/only becomes possible some time after the estate was last improved.
>
> * An estate with no improvements can be cashed in for voting strength.
> * An estate with a Farm produces Comestibles, as under Agoraculture.
> * An estate with a Mine produces Minerals.
> * An estate with a Refinery consumes Minerals and produces Ingots, and 
> pollutes the estate when it does so.
> * An estate with a Mint 

Re: DIS: Economy and Games

[Owen Jacobson]

> On Sep 23, 2017, at 4:26 PM, Kerim Aydin  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> On Sat, 23 Sep 2017, Owen Jacobson wrote:
>> As for the gerontocracy argument: Money is an inherently gerontocratic 
>> system.
>> It abstracts value from labor in a way that allows arbitrary allocation.
> 
> Ok, I've been mulling this over for the past week or so, and some broad 
> thoughts.
> 
> I think we should step away from thinking of this in terms of Economies and
> think of it in terms of Game Design.

Shinies have already been a spectacular success at incentivizing adding to the 
Story of Agora, per nichdel’s essay last year.

> On the supply side, what we have is classic exponential asset growth.  Base
> assets let you get things which then let your assets grow faster (I'm
> particularly thinking of the recent Agoraculture here).  This can be very
> fun - the fun part of the grind games is when your properties start *really*
> producing.  But the problem is that it leads to early determination of
> winners versus losers, and if the game lasts too long, it's a frustrating
> slog for the losers.  In a game with no fixed end (e.g. real life), this is
> the gerontocracy.
> 
> It's greatly exacerbated by the fact that distribution of valuable assets
> is via Auction.  Auctions are inherently exponential (a slight lead in
> your base asset leads to you winning a big valuable asset).  Moreover,
> right now, the auction properties are far too rare, so you have to compete
> directly with the gerontocracy to buy in.  My main reason to hoard right now
> is to have any chance in an auction.

I’d be open to replacing the Estate auction with a lottery of players with the 
fewest number of Estates, or a straight lottery. My original intention was 
specifically to create a high-value item, so that shinies would return to Agora 
somewhat regularly, but tying it to Voting Strength seems to have made Estates 
“too good to use,” and I expect that once all five are auctioned off, the only 
time they’ll go back to Agora to be auctioned again will be due to 
deregistrations. Agoraculture aggravates this by allowing Estates to produce a 
steady income so long as players are willing to buy Comestibles. (Separately, I 
suspect that the Voting Strength effects of Comestibles are going to be… 
interesting. babelian did something smart by giving them a best-before date, 
which should limit the carnage.)

The last round of randomness framework work you did is more than sufficient to 
support a lottery, and while I _dislike_ nondeterministic play, I think it’s 
probably an improvement over a straight auction.

Even if we had an effective way for players to form a cartel - which we don’t, 
writing the appropriate Organization is significantly too hard, and setting up 
an Agency with the right properties requires trusting someone with the giant 
pot of Shinies, and the resulting Estate, to a degree that’s probably 
impractical - what we’d probably end up with is a cartel of gerontocrats, or a 
classic capitalist oligarchy.

> I think the solution is some minimum income, and drastically reducing the
> buy-in difficulties for auctions (I'd do that through increased land).

I picked five estates when I believed that estates would cycle back to Agora 
somewhat regularly, but that hasn’t happened. If we keep auctions, I’d be in 
favour of a multi-part fix:

* Create significantly more estates - maybe another five, maybe another ten.

* Significantly shorten the auction period. Three days should be sufficient. 
Add some timing-scam padding to ensure that it’s not two days of silence 
followed by a late-night flurry of messages.

* Auction an estate off weekly to get them into circulation faster.

> On the spending side:  quite frankly, we don't have enough diversity of
> things that actually buy game advantage to be worth spending on.  We need
> to add different pathways to accumulation and specialization.

If you’ll humour adding steps for steps’ sakes, the “farm switch” system 
suggests a system of land improvements. We could bring back medals, but create 
a production chain for them:

* An estate with an improvement cannot be cashed in for voting strength. 
Removing or replacing an improvement costs shinies and requires a notice 
period/only becomes possible some time after the estate was last improved.

* An estate with no improvements can be cashed in for voting strength.
* An estate with a Farm produces Comestibles, as under Agoraculture.
* An estate with a Mine produces Minerals.
* An estate with a Refinery consumes Minerals and produces Ingots, and pollutes 
the estate when it does so.
* An estate with a Mint consumes Ingots and produces Medals, and pollutes the 
estate when it does so.
* An estate with a Recycler can be tapped to remove pollution from an estate, 
on a cooldown.

* An improvement on a polluted estate is non-functional.
* Destroying N owned medals grants a victory.
* If more than N estates are polluted at any one time, all 

Re: BUS: Re: DIS: Re: OFF: [Secretary] Weekly Report

[Aris Merchant]

I will issue everyone who does this a trust token (all at once, with my
charity report) and will try to think of a more substantial token of
gratitude. Thank you.

-Aris

On Mon, Sep 25, 2017 at 9:53 PM VJ Rada  wrote:

> I have like 62 I think? I give Agora 20 shinies.
>
> On Tue, Sep 26, 2017 at 2:41 PM, Aris Merchant
>  wrote:
> > On Mon, Sep 25, 2017 at 8:50 PM, Kerim Aydin 
> wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> On Mon, 25 Sep 2017, Owen Jacobson wrote:
> >>> * The reward for authoring or pending a successful proposal pended
> with shinies is 1 sh.
> >>
> >> Ok, so as much as I understand the assessor's lateness, I suspect it
> cost me
> >> personally a fair purse of shinies.  I'm at the point where I'm ready
> to call the
> >> entire wildly-adjusting and oscillating"system" frustrating guesswork
> and
> >> gambling to tune out of it entirely, voting to just keep AP and be
> happy with
> >> a couple actions a week.
> >
> > Economic reform goals:
> >
> > 1. Keep everything stable. I'd say we also need to keep things
> > interesting, but frankly everyone could use a bit of boringness right
> > now. This is impacting the workloads of several officers (meaning we
> > have to do our work in bursts) and is ruining stability and financial
> > planing. IMHO, this is is also the biggest flaw in at least two
> > proposals, Shiny Weather and Hot Potato, which would both actually
> > reduce stability in the markets.
> >
> > 2. Keep Agora solvent. Another major flaw in most financial proposals.
> > At least half of any wealth from taxes should go to Agora. Yes, that's
> > right, half. I know this is going to be unpopular, but wealth
> > redistribution will not actually create a good financial system unless
> > rule based rewards work. This is the upside of "print money" style
> > proposals, which people vote against primarily because they're
> > applying too much real world economics (not that people need to vote
> > for them, see the next sentence, but I think they vote against for the
> > wrong reasons). The disadvantage of that kind of proposal is that
> > they're short term fixes that don't solve the underlying problem. I'm
> > starting to think that a two tier tax might be best. A wealth
> > redistribution tax would be placed on the rich, while a public tax
> > would be levied on all but the poor.
> >
> > 3. Redistribute wealth. Yeah, this is third. No, that isn't a mistake.
> > Every self-respecting economic reform proposal does this, but it's
> > actually rather pointless without the other two. Until those happen,
> > shines aren't a stable form of value.
> >
> > Temporary fix (mandatory charity): I have 48 shinies. I pay Agora 16
> > shines. All players, but especially o and P.S.S SHOULD give Agora 1/3
> > of their shinies, receiving nothing in exchange. I pledge to publish a
> > list of who has and has not done so. I also pledge that if I judge the
> > response of the community to be insufficient, I will submit and pend a
> > proposal levying a tax upon all players.
> >
> > -Aris
>
>
>
> --
> From V.J. Rada
>

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: [Proposal] Fixing Fingers

[VJ Rada]

No, I meant CFJ. There was one called by Orjan contending that,
because my proposal "minor fixes" that fixed that loophole referred to
a rule as "a rule with no number", which was wrong by the time the
proposal passed, the fix did not work.

On Tue, Sep 26, 2017 at 2:24 PM, Kerim Aydin  wrote:
>
>
> Oh you mean "proposal" not CFJ ... that's in the late-to-assess batch.
>
> On Tue, 26 Sep 2017, VJ Rada wrote:
>> Card Reform & Expansion, from the really massive distribution a couple
>> of weeks ago.
>>
>> On Tue, Sep 26, 2017 at 2:17 PM, Kerim Aydin  wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> > Which one was that?  The only unresolved ones are on different subjects
>> > I think.
>> >
>> > On Tue, 26 Sep 2017, VJ Rada wrote:
>> >> Did the CFJ on fixing the CoE loophole ever get resolved? Not sure it did.
>> >>
>> >> On Tue, Sep 26, 2017 at 2:06 PM, Aris Merchant
>> >>  wrote:
>> >> > On Mon, Sep 25, 2017 at 9:03 PM, Owen Jacobson  wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >>> On Sep 25, 2017, at 11:49 PM, VJ Rada  wrote:
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> I create and pend with 1 shiny the following
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Aris, your reward package is ready for pickup.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> -o
>> >> >
>> >> > There's a 24 hour time limit.
>> >> >
>> >> > -Aris
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> From V.J. Rada
>> >>
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> From V.J. Rada
>>
>



-- 
>From V.J. Rada

Re: DIS: Shinies and Stamps Omnibus Fix Thread

[Owen Jacobson]

>> With that in mind, here are the things I believe need to happen:
>> 
>> 1. The proposals fixing the stamps, welcome package, and floating value 
>> rules need to pass. If there are any lingering bugs you’re aware of that 
>> would perpetuate our shiny problems, please share them so that we can get 
>> those fixed, too.
> 
> The proposals for this are distributed, other than one late-breaking bugfix 
> for Agoraculture. As Agoraculture has only just been enacted
> 
> PLEASE DO NOT PERFORM ACTIONS FROM THE AGORACULTURE RULES UNTIL THE MAY/CAN 
> BUGS IN THEM ARE FIXED.
> 
> Let’s not have a repeat quite that quickly. To the Agronomist: I recommend 
> adjudicating these rules, and these rules only, as if they mean exactly what 
> they say, which I believe means that it is presently impossible to create 
> Comestibles.

I’m reasonably certain that the proposals fixing Shinies have passed, but have 
not yet been assessed. The proposal repairing Agoraculture has been distributed 
and the votes so far are FOR it, so - optimistically - I expect it to pass, as 
well. We’re fairly close to having these two systems working again. With that 
in mind…

>> 2. I need to draft a proposal that, somehow, ratifies the results of all 
>> shiny-related and stamp-related actions since July 30th, when nichdel 
>> attempted to create the first stamp. This proposal also needs a catch-all 
>> clause to cause it to ratify shiny actions taken after this proposal is 
>> submitted but before it passes, or we need a gentleagorans’ agreement not to 
>> do anything with shinies or stamps for the duration.
> 
> Having slept on this a bit, and understanding the ratification process a bit 
> better, I think this proposal will comprise two parts:
> 
> 1. A condition that matches only the prior actions that would fall under 
> principle 1 and ratifies them in place with the rules retroactively changed, 
> and
> 
> 2. A list of all such actions known at the time of writing for the proposal, 
> by reference (through links into the archives).
> 
> The latter acts as a fallback in case the former is inadequate in some way, 
> while the former allows players to continue transacting nominal shinies 
> without losing those transactions when ratification happens.
> 
> Does this seem reasonable?

I spoke to ais523 privately, and to a few other folks, and it sounds like 
ratifying the Secretary’s report (which happens automatically) and turning a 
benign blind eye to the fact that the Promotor may have been distributing 
proposals which were not pending (which the Promotor CAN do, but MUST NOT do) 
should be sufficient.

We may want to ratify the ruleset, as well, once we’re sure the typographical 
issues and accidental omissions people have been discovering are sorted out, 
but I don’t think it’s urgent so long as the proposal cycle itself isn’t 
compromised, and it doesn’t sound like it is.

With that in mind, I believe no further action is required on this front once 
the proposals mentioned above are enacted.

Objections?

-o


signature.asc
Description: Message signed with OpenPGP

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: [Proposal] Fixing Fingers

[Kerim Aydin]

Oh you mean "proposal" not CFJ ... that's in the late-to-assess batch.

On Tue, 26 Sep 2017, VJ Rada wrote:
> Card Reform & Expansion, from the really massive distribution a couple
> of weeks ago.
> 
> On Tue, Sep 26, 2017 at 2:17 PM, Kerim Aydin  wrote:
> >
> >
> > Which one was that?  The only unresolved ones are on different subjects
> > I think.
> >
> > On Tue, 26 Sep 2017, VJ Rada wrote:
> >> Did the CFJ on fixing the CoE loophole ever get resolved? Not sure it did.
> >>
> >> On Tue, Sep 26, 2017 at 2:06 PM, Aris Merchant
> >>  wrote:
> >> > On Mon, Sep 25, 2017 at 9:03 PM, Owen Jacobson  wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >>> On Sep 25, 2017, at 11:49 PM, VJ Rada  wrote:
> >> >>>
> >> >>> I create and pend with 1 shiny the following
> >> >>
> >> >> Aris, your reward package is ready for pickup.
> >> >>
> >> >> -o
> >> >
> >> > There's a 24 hour time limit.
> >> >
> >> > -Aris
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> From V.J. Rada
> >>
> >
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> From V.J. Rada
>

Re: DIS: Re: OFF: [Secretary] Weekly Report

[Owen Jacobson]

> On Sep 25, 2017, at 11:50 PM, Kerim Aydin  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> On Mon, 25 Sep 2017, Owen Jacobson wrote:
>> * The reward for authoring or pending a successful proposal pended with 
>> shinies is 1 sh.
> 
> Ok, so as much as I understand the assessor's lateness, I suspect it cost me
> personally a fair purse of shinies.  I'm at the point where I'm ready to call 
> the
> entire wildly-adjusting and oscillating"system" frustrating guesswork and
> gambling to tune out of it entirely, voting to just keep AP and be happy with
> a couple actions a week.


ID Author(s) AI   TitlePender  Pend fee
---
7901*  o, [1]3.0  Make Your Home Shine o   6 sh.
7879*  o, Aris   1.0  You can take it with you o   1 sh.
7880*  o 1.0  Agency Typo Fix  o   1 sh.
7881*  o, [2]1.0  Stamp CAN Patch  o   1 sh.
7882*  o, K, ais523  1.0  Welcome Package CAN Patcho   1 sh.
7885*  o, [3]3.0  Restraining Bolt o   1 sh.
7888*  o, V.J Rada   3.1  BILLY MAYS HERE  o   1 sh.

I share your pain.

It’s something of a moot point for now. I expect to return a big chunk of my 
Shinies to the pool sometime in the next two weeks, but until PSS and I let go 
of our assets, Agora’s broke. Even if either of us were to be eligible for a 
large payday due to FV fluctuations, I think it’d be impossible for us to 
collect. It’s not gambling if it never pays out…

-o



signature.asc
Description: Message signed with OpenPGP

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: [Proposal] Fixing Fingers

[Ørjan Johansen]

Below, surely?

Would have been strangely amusing if they'd both passed... I've started to 
dislike proposals written in a way that's super vulnerable to race 
conditions.


Greetings,
Ørjan.

On Tue, 26 Sep 2017, VJ Rada wrote:


I rescind the above proposal.

On Tue, Sep 26, 2017 at 2:16 PM, Ørjan Johansen  wrote:

On Tue, 26 Sep 2017, VJ Rada wrote:


I create and pend with 1 shiny the following
Title: Two Words
AI: 1.7
Text: In rule 2478, Vigilante Justice, add the word "either" after the
words "shall conclude the investigation by" but before the colon.
Also, before the words "if e believes that no rules violation occurred
or that it would", add the word "or"
--


From V.J. Rada





Proposal 7886 already contains a fix.

Greetings,
Ørjan.




--

From V.J. Rada

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Such is karma

[Kerim Aydin]

Sigh, this started when I was looking for a specific Japanese term for
peasant, and it's not like peasants had it any easier in the old days, 
if that's something to be offended by.  I'd very much prefer a fix that
fits the theme.  Or go with Gamma, which would be a typical Agoran
sort of joke.

On Mon, 25 Sep 2017, Aris Merchant wrote:
> On Mon, Sep 25, 2017 at 7:18 PM, Owen Jacobson  wrote:
> > On Sep 24, 2017, at 4:12 PM, Kerim Aydin  wrote:
> >
> >- Any player with a karma of 7 or greater is a Samurai.
> >- Any player with a karma of -7 or less is an Eta.
> >
> >
> > I am _deeply_ uncomfortable with this terminology. As recently as the
> > mid-19th century, Japanese magistrates considered eta to be worth “one
> > seventh of a person,” and - going back further - the common perception is
> > that a samurai would experience no consequences for killing an eta, as they
> > are unpersons.
> >
> > I’ll likely still vote for the proposal, because I appreciate the system as
> > a whole, but I’d also vote for a follow-on that modifies the labels..
> >
> > -o
> >
> 
> I submit the following proposal.
> 
> -Aris
> 
> ---
> Title: Pro Pace
> Adoption index: 1.0
> Author: Aris
> Co-authors: o
> 
> Amend the Rule entitled "Such is Karma", if there is such a rule, by replacing
> every instance of the word "Eta" with the word "Peasant".
>

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: [Proposal] Fixing Fingers

[VJ Rada]

Card Reform & Expansion, from the really massive distribution a couple
of weeks ago.

On Tue, Sep 26, 2017 at 2:17 PM, Kerim Aydin  wrote:
>
>
> Which one was that?  The only unresolved ones are on different subjects
> I think.
>
> On Tue, 26 Sep 2017, VJ Rada wrote:
>> Did the CFJ on fixing the CoE loophole ever get resolved? Not sure it did.
>>
>> On Tue, Sep 26, 2017 at 2:06 PM, Aris Merchant
>>  wrote:
>> > On Mon, Sep 25, 2017 at 9:03 PM, Owen Jacobson  wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> On Sep 25, 2017, at 11:49 PM, VJ Rada  wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>> I create and pend with 1 shiny the following
>> >>
>> >> Aris, your reward package is ready for pickup.
>> >>
>> >> -o
>> >
>> > There's a 24 hour time limit.
>> >
>> > -Aris
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> From V.J. Rada
>>
>



-- 
>From V.J. Rada

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: [Proposal] Fixing Fingers

[VJ Rada]

I rescind the above proposal.

On Tue, Sep 26, 2017 at 2:16 PM, Ørjan Johansen  wrote:
> On Tue, 26 Sep 2017, VJ Rada wrote:
>
>> I create and pend with 1 shiny the following
>> Title: Two Words
>> AI: 1.7
>> Text: In rule 2478, Vigilante Justice, add the word "either" after the
>> words "shall conclude the investigation by" but before the colon.
>> Also, before the words "if e believes that no rules violation occurred
>> or that it would", add the word "or"
>> --
>>>
>>> From V.J. Rada
>>
>>
>
> Proposal 7886 already contains a fix.
>
> Greetings,
> Ørjan.



-- 
>From V.J. Rada

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: [Proposal] Fixing Fingers

[Kerim Aydin]

Which one was that?  The only unresolved ones are on different subjects 
I think.

On Tue, 26 Sep 2017, VJ Rada wrote:
> Did the CFJ on fixing the CoE loophole ever get resolved? Not sure it did.
> 
> On Tue, Sep 26, 2017 at 2:06 PM, Aris Merchant
>  wrote:
> > On Mon, Sep 25, 2017 at 9:03 PM, Owen Jacobson  wrote:
> >>
> >>> On Sep 25, 2017, at 11:49 PM, VJ Rada  wrote:
> >>>
> >>> I create and pend with 1 shiny the following
> >>
> >> Aris, your reward package is ready for pickup.
> >>
> >> -o
> >
> > There's a 24 hour time limit.
> >
> > -Aris
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> From V.J. Rada
>

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Re: OFF: [Secretary] Weekly Report (revision 2)

[Owen Jacobson]

> On Sep 26, 2017, at 12:10 AM, Alex Smith  wrote:
> 
> On Mon, 2017-09-25 at 23:59 -0400, Owen Jacobson wrote:
>> As Secretary, I destroy the organization “Agoran Betting Market”, as
>> its Income is below the Income Floor of 50.
>> 
>> If anyone feels like reinstating it, its final charter is reproduced
>> below.
> 
> About time too, I guess; its charter was broken, which is one of the
> main reasons it wasn't being used, and it was proving surprisingly
> difficult to fix. (This is a good argument for moving towards
> Contracts, which would make something like that easier to write now
> that we have Shinies as something to bet with.)
> 
> I'm surprised it only fell below floor recently, though. IIRC I was
> contributing less than 50 to it personally, but you have it at 0.

You were, according to my records, contributing 25 to it. However, Sprocklem 
was contributing another 25, getting it to 50 and thus keeping it alive.

Sprocklem’s been deregistered for some time, but - while I correctly noted eir 
deregistration for Shinies, I failed to account for it for Budget. (Same for 
you, actually.) The Organization-related parts of the Secretary’s offical 
duties move so slowly, compared to the Shinies-related parts, that I just plain 
forgot about deregistrations affecting them.

-o



signature.asc
Description: Message signed with OpenPGP

DIS: Re: BUS: [Proposal] Fixing Fingers

[Ørjan Johansen]

On Tue, 26 Sep 2017, VJ Rada wrote:


I create and pend with 1 shiny the following
Title: Two Words
AI: 1.7
Text: In rule 2478, Vigilante Justice, add the word "either" after the
words "shall conclude the investigation by" but before the colon.
Also, before the words "if e believes that no rules violation occurred
or that it would", add the word "or"
--

From V.J. Rada




Proposal 7886 already contains a fix.

Greetings,
Ørjan.

DIS: Re: BUS: Re: OFF: [Secretary] Weekly Report (revision 2)

[Alex Smith]

On Mon, 2017-09-25 at 23:59 -0400, Owen Jacobson wrote:
> As Secretary, I destroy the organization “Agoran Betting Market”, as
> its Income is below the Income Floor of 50.
> 
> If anyone feels like reinstating it, its final charter is reproduced
> below.

About time too, I guess; its charter was broken, which is one of the
main reasons it wasn't being used, and it was proving surprisingly
difficult to fix. (This is a good argument for moving towards
Contracts, which would make something like that easier to write now
that we have Shinies as something to bet with.)

I'm surprised it only fell below floor recently, though. IIRC I was
contributing less than 50 to it personally, but you have it at 0.

-- 
ais523

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: [Proposal] Fixing Fingers

[VJ Rada]

Did the CFJ on fixing the CoE loophole ever get resolved? Not sure it did.

On Tue, Sep 26, 2017 at 2:06 PM, Aris Merchant
 wrote:
> On Mon, Sep 25, 2017 at 9:03 PM, Owen Jacobson  wrote:
>>
>>> On Sep 25, 2017, at 11:49 PM, VJ Rada  wrote:
>>>
>>> I create and pend with 1 shiny the following
>>
>> Aris, your reward package is ready for pickup.
>>
>> -o
>
> There's a 24 hour time limit.
>
> -Aris



-- 
>From V.J. Rada

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: [Proposal] Fixing Fingers

[Aris Merchant]

On Mon, Sep 25, 2017 at 9:03 PM, Owen Jacobson  wrote:
>
>> On Sep 25, 2017, at 11:49 PM, VJ Rada  wrote:
>>
>> I create and pend with 1 shiny the following
>
> Aris, your reward package is ready for pickup.
>
> -o

There's a 24 hour time limit.

-Aris

DIS: Re: BUS: [Proposal] Fixing Fingers

[Owen Jacobson]

> On Sep 25, 2017, at 11:49 PM, VJ Rada  wrote:
> 
> I create and pend with 1 shiny the following

Aris, your reward package is ready for pickup.

-o




signature.asc
Description: Message signed with OpenPGP

DIS: Re: OFF: [Secretary] Weekly Report

[Kerim Aydin]

On Mon, 25 Sep 2017, Owen Jacobson wrote:
> * The reward for authoring or pending a successful proposal pended with 
> shinies is 1 sh.

Ok, so as much as I understand the assessor's lateness, I suspect it cost me
personally a fair purse of shinies.  I'm at the point where I'm ready to call 
the
entire wildly-adjusting and oscillating"system" frustrating guesswork and 
gambling to tune out of it entirely, voting to just keep AP and be happy with
a couple actions a week.

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Such is karma

[Kerim Aydin]

For the record, in advising me, 天火狐 said that it's possible the term could
be offensive to some, and if so we could pretend Eta was good Agoran Greek.
(And I liked the double meaning, we could go all brave new world and have
an orthogonal Greek letter system that intersects at eta).

But I'm cool with changing it too.

On Mon, 25 Sep 2017, Owen Jacobson wrote:
> > On Sep 25, 2017, at 10:37 PM, Josh T  wrote:
> > 
> > @o: Where were you when G. asked about terminology?
> 
> Busy with non-Agora things. The lateness of the hour is why I’m still voting 
> FOR the proposal, even though I find that element objectionable: I’d rather 
> not drag things out simply because I’m ten days behind the curve on 
> discussion posts.
> 
> -o
> 
> 
>

Re: DIS: Rules confuse me.

[VJ Rada]

Yeah rulekeeping is _very_ hard. The real state of the rules is not as
currently written in the ruleset, which is confusing, but yeah it's
really really hard.

On Tue, Sep 26, 2017 at 1:00 PM, Kerim Aydin  wrote:
>
>
> The FLR and SLR are sometimes behind because the rule keeper has
> a life.  :).  The "last change" is so players can read the SLR and know
> that proposals numbered after that aren't in there yet, though the "true
> state" of the rules at any given moment includes later stuff.
>
> The assessor is indeed late.  E apologized last week and said e would
> be late, and offered to set up an agency so someone could do it for em
> if they wanted (no one took me up on it).
>
> On Mon, 25 Sep 2017, Trigon wrote:
>> At the time that I'm writing this, the Full Logical Ruleset [1] claims that
>> the most recent change to the ruleset is the adoption of Proposal 7875,
>> "Better Accounting" [2]. This should have modified rules 2496 and 2497, but
>> the text that was proposed to be appended cannot be found. Additionally,
>> Proposal 7873 has not been added anywhere yet, despite the resolution post 
>> [2]
>> stating that it has passed.
>>
>> Additionally, Proposals 7875-7898 [3] were distributed 10 Sept 2017, and the
>> length of the voting period is 7 days, meaning that there should have been a
>> resolution post some time the next week, but there hasn't been one. In fact,
>> the last Assessor post was on the 7th.
>>
>> So, if someone could explain if I'm wrong, I'd appreciate that.
>>
>> [1] https://agoranomic.org/ruleset/flr.txt
>> [2] https://www.mail-archive.com/agora-official@agoranomic.org/msg08264.html
>> [3] https://www.mail-archive.com/agora-official@agoranomic.org/msg08268.html
>>
>> -- Trigon
>>
>



-- 
>From V.J. Rada

Re: DIS: Rules confuse me.

[Kerim Aydin]

The FLR and SLR are sometimes behind because the rule keeper has
a life.  :).  The "last change" is so players can read the SLR and know 
that proposals numbered after that aren't in there yet, though the "true
state" of the rules at any given moment includes later stuff.

The assessor is indeed late.  E apologized last week and said e would
be late, and offered to set up an agency so someone could do it for em
if they wanted (no one took me up on it).

On Mon, 25 Sep 2017, Trigon wrote:
> At the time that I'm writing this, the Full Logical Ruleset [1] claims that
> the most recent change to the ruleset is the adoption of Proposal 7875,
> "Better Accounting" [2]. This should have modified rules 2496 and 2497, but
> the text that was proposed to be appended cannot be found. Additionally,
> Proposal 7873 has not been added anywhere yet, despite the resolution post [2]
> stating that it has passed.
> 
> Additionally, Proposals 7875-7898 [3] were distributed 10 Sept 2017, and the
> length of the voting period is 7 days, meaning that there should have been a
> resolution post some time the next week, but there hasn't been one. In fact,
> the last Assessor post was on the 7th.
> 
> So, if someone could explain if I'm wrong, I'd appreciate that.
> 
> [1] https://agoranomic.org/ruleset/flr.txt
> [2] https://www.mail-archive.com/agora-official@agoranomic.org/msg08264.html
> [3] https://www.mail-archive.com/agora-official@agoranomic.org/msg08268.html
> 
> -- Trigon
>

DIS: Re: BUS: Reward

[Owen Jacobson]

On Sep 24, 2017, at 10:41 PM, Aris Merchant 
 wrote:

> I claim a reward of 5 shinies for publishing the Promotor report.
> 
> -Aris

This was, unfortunately, ineffective: Agora’s balance at this point was 4 
shinies. Nobody’s spent any shinies since then, either.

-o



signature.asc
Description: Message signed with OpenPGP

Re: DIS: Rules confuse me.

[VJ Rada]

1. The rules are tissue paper, but Gaelan is the incumbent rulekeepor,
he is the only one who could have an answer
2. Assessing is hard.

On Tue, Sep 26, 2017 at 1:00 PM, Nic Evans  wrote:
>
>
> On 09/25/17 21:47, Trigon wrote:
>> At the time that I'm writing this, the Full Logical Ruleset [1] claims
>> that the most recent change to the ruleset is the adoption of Proposal
>> 7875, "Better Accounting" [2]. This should have modified rules 2496
>> and 2497, but the text that was proposed to be appended cannot be
>> found. Additionally, Proposal 7873 has not been added anywhere yet,
>> despite the resolution post [2] stating that it has passed.
>
> That's a question for the rulekeepor.
>
>>
>> Additionally, Proposals 7875-7898 [3] were distributed 10 Sept 2017,
>> and the length of the voting period is 7 days, meaning that there
>> should have been a resolution post some time the next week, but there
>> hasn't been one. In fact, the last Assessor post was on the 7th.
>
> I'm behind on those because of travel and the sheer volume of them. In
> general I try to assess within 7-14 days of distribution.
>
>>
>> So, if someone could explain if I'm wrong, I'd appreciate that.
>>
>> [1] https://agoranomic.org/ruleset/flr.txt
>> [2]
>> https://www.mail-archive.com/agora-official@agoranomic.org/msg08264.html
>> [3]
>> https://www.mail-archive.com/agora-official@agoranomic.org/msg08268.html
>>
>> -- Trigon
>
>



-- 
>From V.J. Rada

Re: DIS: Rules confuse me.

[Nic Evans]

On 09/25/17 21:47, Trigon wrote:
> At the time that I'm writing this, the Full Logical Ruleset [1] claims
> that the most recent change to the ruleset is the adoption of Proposal
> 7875, "Better Accounting" [2]. This should have modified rules 2496
> and 2497, but the text that was proposed to be appended cannot be
> found. Additionally, Proposal 7873 has not been added anywhere yet,
> despite the resolution post [2] stating that it has passed.

That's a question for the rulekeepor.

>
> Additionally, Proposals 7875-7898 [3] were distributed 10 Sept 2017,
> and the length of the voting period is 7 days, meaning that there
> should have been a resolution post some time the next week, but there
> hasn't been one. In fact, the last Assessor post was on the 7th.

I'm behind on those because of travel and the sheer volume of them. In
general I try to assess within 7-14 days of distribution.

>
> So, if someone could explain if I'm wrong, I'd appreciate that.
>
> [1] https://agoranomic.org/ruleset/flr.txt
> [2]
> https://www.mail-archive.com/agora-official@agoranomic.org/msg08264.html
> [3]
> https://www.mail-archive.com/agora-official@agoranomic.org/msg08268.html
>
> -- Trigon




signature.asc
Description: OpenPGP digital signature

DIS: Re: BUS: Frivolous AP spending

[VJ Rada]

>it’s now impossible for me to card CuddleBeam for the remainder of the week.

Whoops, I forgot that that would also have this effect.

On Tue, Sep 26, 2017 at 12:50 PM, Owen Jacobson  wrote:
> On Mon, Sep 25, 2017 at 2:04 PM, Cuddle Beam  wrote:
>
> Week soon over so:
>
> I create the following Proposal and pend it with 1 AP:
>
> Title: Shiny Love
> Content: Upon enactment of this proposal, for each player who voted AGAINST
> this proposal and in alphabetical (and transliterated) order, have 10 of
> their shinies transferred to Agora. Then, for each player who voted FOR this
> proposal and in alphabetical (and transliterated) order, have Agora transfer
> to them 10 Shinies.
>
> I create the following Proposal and pend it with 1 AP:
>
> Title: make Cuddlebeam happy.
> Content: Upon enactment of this proposal, make Cuddlebeam happy.
>
>
>
> On Sep 25, 2017, at 12:07 AM, VJ Rada  wrote:
>
> Agoran weeks begin midnight GMT monday. That's already happened a few
> hours ago, I think. And if it is a new week, I also get to point new
> fingers. I point not one but two fingers at CB for no good reason.
>
>
> For each of the above two fingers, I find the finger pointed at CuddleBeam
> to be shenanigans, as it does not identify any rules violation, and
> CuddleBeam has not obviously violated any rules in the message to which the
> above finger-pointing was a reply. Eir proposals may be frivolous, but they
> are legal and CuddleBeam has every right to pend them.
>
> As I am still bound by the rules to issue a card anyways, for each of the
> above two fingers, I issue CuddleBeam a Green Card by summary judgement, for
> “no good reason.”
>
> I also issue myself a Green Card by summary judgement for violating rule
> 2426, which proscribes issuing a card for an infraction where a card has
> already been issued. The second card issued above is for the same infraction
> as the first.
>
> That’s three of my five cards for the week, and it’s now impossible for me
> to card CuddleBeam for the remainder of the week.
>
> -o
>



-- 
>From V.J. Rada

DIS: Rules confuse me.

[Trigon]

At the time that I'm writing this, the Full Logical Ruleset [1] claims 
that the most recent change to the ruleset is the adoption of Proposal 
7875, "Better Accounting" [2]. This should have modified rules 2496 and 
2497, but the text that was proposed to be appended cannot be found. 
Additionally, Proposal 7873 has not been added anywhere yet, despite the 
resolution post [2] stating that it has passed.


Additionally, Proposals 7875-7898 [3] were distributed 10 Sept 2017, and 
the length of the voting period is 7 days, meaning that there should 
have been a resolution post some time the next week, but there hasn't 
been one. In fact, the last Assessor post was on the 7th.


So, if someone could explain if I'm wrong, I'd appreciate that.

[1] https://agoranomic.org/ruleset/flr.txt
[2] https://www.mail-archive.com/agora-official@agoranomic.org/msg08264.html
[3] https://www.mail-archive.com/agora-official@agoranomic.org/msg08268.html

-- Trigon

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Such is karma

[Owen Jacobson]

> On Sep 25, 2017, at 10:37 PM, Josh T  wrote:
> 
> @o: Where were you when G. asked about terminology?

Busy with non-Agora things. The lateness of the hour is why I’m still voting 
FOR the proposal, even though I find that element objectionable: I’d rather not 
drag things out simply because I’m ten days behind the curve on discussion 
posts.

-o




signature.asc
Description: Message signed with OpenPGP

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Such is karma

[Josh T]

@o: Where were you when G. asked about terminology?

天火狐

On 25 September 2017 at 22:18, Owen Jacobson  wrote:

> On Sep 24, 2017, at 4:12 PM, Kerim Aydin  wrote:
>
>- Any player with a karma of 7 or greater is a Samurai.
>- Any player with a karma of -7 or less is an Eta.
>
>
> I am _deeply_ uncomfortable with this terminology. As recently as the
> mid-19th century, Japanese magistrates considered eta to be worth “one
> seventh of a person,” and - going back further - the common perception is
> that a samurai would experience no consequences for killing an eta, as they
> are unpersons.
>
> I’ll likely still vote for the proposal, because I appreciate the system
> as a whole, but I’d also vote for a follow-on that modifies the labels..
>
> -o
>
>

DIS: Re: BUS: Such is karma

[Owen Jacobson]

On Sep 24, 2017, at 4:12 PM, Kerim Aydin  wrote:

>- Any player with a karma of 7 or greater is a Samurai.
>- Any player with a karma of -7 or less is an Eta.

I am _deeply_ uncomfortable with this terminology. As recently as the mid-19th 
century, Japanese magistrates considered eta to be worth “one seventh of a 
person,” and - going back further - the common perception is that a samurai 
would experience no consequences for killing an eta, as they are unpersons.

I’ll likely still vote for the proposal, because I appreciate the system as a 
whole, but I’d also vote for a follow-on that modifies the labels..

-o



signature.asc
Description: Message signed with OpenPGP

Re: DIS: Various questions

[ATMunn .]

On second thought, I don't think I really want the responsibilities of an
office yet. I think I'll stay unemployed for now.

On Sat, Sep 23, 2017 at 3:26 PM, ATMunn .  wrote:

> Thanks, everyone, for your answers.
>
> I'm not too interested in the Superintendent office, so I don't think I'll
> go for that.
> I could go for the Referee, since o said e wouldn't mind me taking it, but
> I'm not really sure I want it either.
>
> One office that I could go for that doesn't seem too difficult is the
> Tailor. If an election for it comes up, I'll definitely vote for myself.
> (Or could I deputize for it? I still don't fully understand the
> deputisation thing)
>
> On Sat, Sep 23, 2017 at 2:35 PM, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus <
> p.scribonius.scholasti...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> > On Sep 23, 2017, at 2:10 PM, Owen Jacobson  wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> > * Voting to enter a CFJ into moot if there’s a serious doubt about the
>> judgement (r. 911, rare),
>>
>> This has happened for the first time relatively recently and it has come
>> up a few times since.
>>
>> > * Voting to win the game (r. 2482, rare),
>>
>> Something is supposed to be happening in regards to this
>>
>> > * Voting for a proposal author to win the Silver Quill for the year (r.
>> 2444, rare).
>>
>> And this...
>>
>> 
>> Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
>> p.scribonius.scholasti...@gmail.com
>>
>
>

Re: DIS: Re: CFJ (Re: BUS: Re: OFF: [Promotor] Distribution of Proposals 7899-7904)

[Ørjan Johansen]

On Mon, 25 Sep 2017, Kerim Aydin wrote:


If you just say "I vote as G. does" that to me reads like voting the
same as my current vote, which wouldn't change if I changed my current
vote.  I don't think there's anything in "I vote as G. does" that
makes it sound conditional.


Hm, that leaves the possibility that the ballot is actually invalid 
because of ambiguity of whether it's conditional or not.  From rule 683:


  4. The ballot clearly identifies a valid vote, as determined by
 the voting method.

Greetings,
Ørjan.

DIS: Re: CFJ (Re: BUS: Re: OFF: [Promotor] Distribution of Proposals 7899-7904)

[Kerim Aydin]

Hmm, the key part is "conditionally", the "last part" shouldn't be
separated from that.  When you say "endorse", the key thing about
defining it to be "conditional" is to ensure it's evaluated at the
end of the voting period.

If you just say "I vote as G. does" that to me reads like voting the
same as my current vote, which wouldn't change if I changed my current
vote.  I don't think there's anything in "I vote as G. does" that
makes it sound conditional.

(aside:  I have a lot of duties piled up, might take until tomorrow
to get to them, apologies).

On Tue, 26 Sep 2017, Ørjan Johansen wrote:
> I CFJ on the statement:
> 
> In the below quoted message, VJ Rada endorsed G.
> 
> Argument: Rule 2127 states
> 
>   Casting a vote endorsing another voter is equivalent to
>   conditionally casting a vote whose value is the same as the most
>   common value (if any) among that voter's valid votes on that
>   decision.
> 
> It seems to me that VJ Radas votes are equivalent to what's stated in the last
> part of that, and thus are endorsements.
> 
> Greetings,
> Ørjan.
> 
> On Mon, 25 Sep 2017, VJ Rada wrote:
> 
> > I vote as G. does.
> > 
> > On Mon, Sep 25, 2017 at 4:01 PM, Kerim Aydin  wrote:
> > > 
> > > 
> > > On Sun, 24 Sep 2017, Aris Merchant wrote:
> > > > 7899*  G.2.0  Arbitor's Union  G.  1 AP
> > > > 7900*  o 2.0  Come What Mayo   1 AP
> > > > 7901*  o, [1]3.0  Make Your Home Shine o   6 sh.
> > > > 7902*  G.1.0  Switch no-opsG.  1 AP
> > > > 7903*  G.2.0  Numerical switches v2G.  1 AP
> > > > 7904*  G., 天火狐 1.0  Such is Karma v2 Aris1 AP
> > > 
> > > I vote FOR all of these.  -G.
> > > 
> > > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > -- 
> > > From V.J. Rada
> > 
>

DIS: Re: CFJ (Re: BUS: Re: OFF: [Promotor] Distribution of Proposals 7899-7904)

[Nic Evans]

On 09/25/17 18:38, Ørjan Johansen wrote:
> I CFJ on the statement:
>
>     In the below quoted message, VJ Rada endorsed G.
>
> Argument: Rule 2127 states
>
>   Casting a vote endorsing another voter is equivalent to
>   conditionally casting a vote whose value is the same as the most
>   common value (if any) among that voter's valid votes on that
>   decision.
>
> It seems to me that VJ Radas votes are equivalent to what's stated in
> the last part of that, and thus are endorsements.

This seems to rely on how you interpret the intent of 2127: Creating a
new action by defining it, or describing the effects of an existing action.

>
> Greetings,
> Ørjan.
>
> On Mon, 25 Sep 2017, VJ Rada wrote:
>
>> I vote as G. does.
>>
>> On Mon, Sep 25, 2017 at 4:01 PM, Kerim Aydin 
>> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sun, 24 Sep 2017, Aris Merchant wrote:
 7899*  G.    2.0  Arbitor's Union  G. 
 1 AP
 7900*  o 2.0  Come What May    o  
 1 AP
 7901*  o, [1]    3.0  Make Your Home Shine o  
 6 sh.
 7902*  G.    1.0  Switch no-ops    G. 
 1 AP
 7903*  G.    2.0  Numerical switches v2    G. 
 1 AP
 7904*  G., 天火狐 1.0  Such is Karma v2 Aris    1
 AP
>>>
>>> I vote FOR all of these.  -G.
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -- 
>>> From V.J. Rada
>>



signature.asc
Description: OpenPGP digital signature

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Re: OFF: [Promotor] Distribution of Proposals 7905-7907

[ATMunn .]

Oops, I don't know how that got sent here...

On Mon, Sep 25, 2017 at 9:24 AM, ATMunn .  wrote:

> I vote the same as PSS does.
>
> On Mon, Sep 25, 2017 at 6:10 AM, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus <
> p.scribonius.scholasti...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> 
>> Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
>> p.scribonius.scholasti...@gmail.com
>>
>>
>>
>> > On Sep 25, 2017, at 1:01 AM, Aris Merchant <
>> thoughtsoflifeandligh...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > [The Office of the Promotor frowns on having to do extra work for no
>> good
>> > reason. Expect much Malevolent Paper Shuffling.]
>> >
>> > I hereby distribute each listed proposal, initiating the Agoran
>> > Decision of whether to adopt it, and removing it from the proposal
>> > pool. For this decision, the vote collector is the Assessor, the
>> > quorum is 2.0 and the valid options are FOR and AGAINST (PRESENT is
>> > also a valid vote).
>> >
>> >
>> > ID Author(s) AI   TitlePender  Pend
>> fee
>> > 
>> ---
>> > 7905*  CuddleBeam1.0  Shiny Love   CuddleBeam  1 AP
>>
>> If voting against would cause this not to pass, I vote AGAINST.
>> Otherwise, I vote FOR. If my vote would be AGAINST and it would be adopted,
>> I vote against.
>>
>> > 7906*  Gaelan1.0  Happiness has a cost.Gaelan  1 AP
>>
>> I vote FOR.
>>
>> > 7907*  CuddleBeam1.0  make Cuddlebeam happy.   CuddleBeam  1 AP
>>
>> I vote FOR.
>>
>> >
>> >
>> > Legend: * : Proposal is pending.
>> >
>> > In order to reduce confusion, the shiny pend price is being removed
>> from this
>> > report. A proposal may be pended for 1 AP, or for 1/20th the Floating
>> Value
>> > in shines (see the Secretary's report).
>> >
>> > The full text of the aforementioned proposals is included below.
>> >
>> > //
>> > ID: 7905
>> > Title: Shiny Love
>> > Adoption index: 1.0
>> > Author: CuddleBeam
>> > Co-authors:
>> >
>> >
>> > Upon enactment of this proposal, for each player who voted AGAINST
>> > this proposal and in alphabetical (and transliterated) order, have 10
>> of their
>> > shinies transferred to Agora. Then, for each player who voted FOR this
>> proposal
>> > and in alphabetical (and transliterated) order, have Agora transfer to
>> them 10
>> > Shinies.
>> >
>> > //
>> > ID: 7906
>> > Title: Happiness has a cost.
>> > Adoption index: 1.0
>> > Author: Gaelan
>> > Co-authors:
>> >
>> >
>> > Create a rule titled “Careful what you wish for”, power 1, text: "All
>> players
>> > designated as happy have their voting power reduced by one. When this
>> joke has
>> > run its course, any player CAN cause this rule to repeal itself With 2
>> Support.”
>> >
>> > //
>> > ID: 7907
>> > Title: make Cuddlebeam happy.
>> > Adoption index: 1.0
>> > Author: CuddleBeam
>> > Co-authors:
>> >
>> >
>> > Upon enactment of this proposal, make Cuddlebeam happy.
>> >
>> > //
>>
>>
>

DIS: Re: BUS: Re: OFF: [Promotor] Distribution of Proposals 7905-7907

[ATMunn .]

I vote the same as PSS does.

On Mon, Sep 25, 2017 at 6:10 AM, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus <
p.scribonius.scholasti...@googlemail.com> wrote:

>
> 
> Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
> p.scribonius.scholasti...@gmail.com
>
>
>
> > On Sep 25, 2017, at 1:01 AM, Aris Merchant  gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > [The Office of the Promotor frowns on having to do extra work for no good
> > reason. Expect much Malevolent Paper Shuffling.]
> >
> > I hereby distribute each listed proposal, initiating the Agoran
> > Decision of whether to adopt it, and removing it from the proposal
> > pool. For this decision, the vote collector is the Assessor, the
> > quorum is 2.0 and the valid options are FOR and AGAINST (PRESENT is
> > also a valid vote).
> >
> >
> > ID Author(s) AI   TitlePender  Pend
> fee
> > 
> ---
> > 7905*  CuddleBeam1.0  Shiny Love   CuddleBeam  1 AP
>
> If voting against would cause this not to pass, I vote AGAINST. Otherwise,
> I vote FOR. If my vote would be AGAINST and it would be adopted, I vote
> against.
>
> > 7906*  Gaelan1.0  Happiness has a cost.Gaelan  1 AP
>
> I vote FOR.
>
> > 7907*  CuddleBeam1.0  make Cuddlebeam happy.   CuddleBeam  1 AP
>
> I vote FOR.
>
> >
> >
> > Legend: * : Proposal is pending.
> >
> > In order to reduce confusion, the shiny pend price is being removed from
> this
> > report. A proposal may be pended for 1 AP, or for 1/20th the Floating
> Value
> > in shines (see the Secretary's report).
> >
> > The full text of the aforementioned proposals is included below.
> >
> > //
> > ID: 7905
> > Title: Shiny Love
> > Adoption index: 1.0
> > Author: CuddleBeam
> > Co-authors:
> >
> >
> > Upon enactment of this proposal, for each player who voted AGAINST
> > this proposal and in alphabetical (and transliterated) order, have 10 of
> their
> > shinies transferred to Agora. Then, for each player who voted FOR this
> proposal
> > and in alphabetical (and transliterated) order, have Agora transfer to
> them 10
> > Shinies.
> >
> > //
> > ID: 7906
> > Title: Happiness has a cost.
> > Adoption index: 1.0
> > Author: Gaelan
> > Co-authors:
> >
> >
> > Create a rule titled “Careful what you wish for”, power 1, text: "All
> players
> > designated as happy have their voting power reduced by one. When this
> joke has
> > run its course, any player CAN cause this rule to repeal itself With 2
> Support.”
> >
> > //
> > ID: 7907
> > Title: make Cuddlebeam happy.
> > Adoption index: 1.0
> > Author: CuddleBeam
> > Co-authors:
> >
> >
> > Upon enactment of this proposal, make Cuddlebeam happy.
> >
> > //
>
>

Re: DIS: Screw all of this

[ATMunn .]

I got this. I think you're good.

On Mon, Sep 25, 2017 at 8:59 AM, Josh T  wrote:

> I can hear you fine.
>
> 天火狐
>
> On Sep 25, 2017 08:40, "Nicholas Evans"  wrote:
>
>> Somewhere on the wiki is instructions for a gmail filter that should save
>> any agora emails that might go to spam. It works for me (i receive all of
>> trigon's emails with a 'saved from spam by filter' notice attached).
>> Someone should dig it up as I'm in transit for the rest of the day.
>>
>> On Sep 25, 2017 1:52 AM, "VJ Rada"  wrote:
>>
>>> Oh I got two of yours as spam and two of PSS's also as spam! Don't
>>> know why. I think that made one of my old ADoP reports inaccurate,
>>> because one of the registrar reports was listed as spam.
>>>
>>> On Mon, Sep 25, 2017 at 4:51 PM, VJ Rada  wrote:
>>> > Got that one, I think you're now good. Yeah, I'm on gmail too lmao.
>>> >
>>> > On Mon, Sep 25, 2017 at 4:23 PM, Rubin Stacy 
>>> wrote:
>>> >> Literally how? Most of this list uses Gmail. Maybe it just ended up
>>> in your
>>> >> Spam folder? You probably already checked, but I'm just trying to
>>> come up
>>> >> with any reason this would have failed because I'm tired of this mess.
>>> >>
>>> >> On Sep 24, 2017 11:57 PM, "VJ Rada"  wrote:
>>> >>>
>>> >>> I _still_ did not receive this message. You're cursed.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> On Mon, Sep 25, 2017 at 3:28 PM, Alex Smith <
>>> ais...@alumni.bham.ac.uk>
>>> >>> wrote:
>>> >>> > On Sun, 2017-09-24 at 22:50 -0600, Rubin Stacy wrote:
>>> >>> >> I made a new gmail so that I can play the game. Please respond so
>>> I
>>> >>> >> know that it's working now.
>>> >>> >
>>> >>> > I received this, at least.
>>> >>> >
>>> >>> > --
>>> >>> > ais523
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>> --
>>> >>> From V.J. Rada
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > --
>>> > From V.J. Rada
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> From V.J. Rada
>>>
>>

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Such is karma

[ATMunn .]

Same.

On Sun, Sep 24, 2017 at 11:07 PM, VJ Rada  wrote:

> Uh... I got your previous email, trigon, but not that one. Sorry.
>
> On Mon, Sep 25, 2017 at 12:09 PM, Ørjan Johansen 
> wrote:
> > On Sun, 24 Sep 2017, Reuben Staley wrote:
> >
> >> If the majority of players are convinced to attack someone then there
> will
> >> not be enough people to punish the full attacking group.
> >
> >
> > But if they're a majority, then they can just pass a proposal anyhow.
> >
> > Greetings,
> > Ørjan.
>
>
>
> --
> From V.J. Rada
>

Re: DIS: Screw all of this

[Josh T]

I can hear you fine.

天火狐

On Sep 25, 2017 08:40, "Nicholas Evans"  wrote:

> Somewhere on the wiki is instructions for a gmail filter that should save
> any agora emails that might go to spam. It works for me (i receive all of
> trigon's emails with a 'saved from spam by filter' notice attached).
> Someone should dig it up as I'm in transit for the rest of the day.
>
> On Sep 25, 2017 1:52 AM, "VJ Rada"  wrote:
>
>> Oh I got two of yours as spam and two of PSS's also as spam! Don't
>> know why. I think that made one of my old ADoP reports inaccurate,
>> because one of the registrar reports was listed as spam.
>>
>> On Mon, Sep 25, 2017 at 4:51 PM, VJ Rada  wrote:
>> > Got that one, I think you're now good. Yeah, I'm on gmail too lmao.
>> >
>> > On Mon, Sep 25, 2017 at 4:23 PM, Rubin Stacy 
>> wrote:
>> >> Literally how? Most of this list uses Gmail. Maybe it just ended up in
>> your
>> >> Spam folder? You probably already checked, but I'm just trying to come
>> up
>> >> with any reason this would have failed because I'm tired of this mess.
>> >>
>> >> On Sep 24, 2017 11:57 PM, "VJ Rada"  wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>> I _still_ did not receive this message. You're cursed.
>> >>>
>> >>> On Mon, Sep 25, 2017 at 3:28 PM, Alex Smith > >
>> >>> wrote:
>> >>> > On Sun, 2017-09-24 at 22:50 -0600, Rubin Stacy wrote:
>> >>> >> I made a new gmail so that I can play the game. Please respond so I
>> >>> >> know that it's working now.
>> >>> >
>> >>> > I received this, at least.
>> >>> >
>> >>> > --
>> >>> > ais523
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> --
>> >>> From V.J. Rada
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > From V.J. Rada
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> From V.J. Rada
>>
>

Re: DIS: Screw all of this

[Nicholas Evans]

Somewhere on the wiki is instructions for a gmail filter that should save
any agora emails that might go to spam. It works for me (i receive all of
trigon's emails with a 'saved from spam by filter' notice attached).
Someone should dig it up as I'm in transit for the rest of the day.

On Sep 25, 2017 1:52 AM, "VJ Rada"  wrote:

> Oh I got two of yours as spam and two of PSS's also as spam! Don't
> know why. I think that made one of my old ADoP reports inaccurate,
> because one of the registrar reports was listed as spam.
>
> On Mon, Sep 25, 2017 at 4:51 PM, VJ Rada  wrote:
> > Got that one, I think you're now good. Yeah, I'm on gmail too lmao.
> >
> > On Mon, Sep 25, 2017 at 4:23 PM, Rubin Stacy 
> wrote:
> >> Literally how? Most of this list uses Gmail. Maybe it just ended up in
> your
> >> Spam folder? You probably already checked, but I'm just trying to come
> up
> >> with any reason this would have failed because I'm tired of this mess.
> >>
> >> On Sep 24, 2017 11:57 PM, "VJ Rada"  wrote:
> >>>
> >>> I _still_ did not receive this message. You're cursed.
> >>>
> >>> On Mon, Sep 25, 2017 at 3:28 PM, Alex Smith 
> >>> wrote:
> >>> > On Sun, 2017-09-24 at 22:50 -0600, Rubin Stacy wrote:
> >>> >> I made a new gmail so that I can play the game. Please respond so I
> >>> >> know that it's working now.
> >>> >
> >>> > I received this, at least.
> >>> >
> >>> > --
> >>> > ais523
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>> From V.J. Rada
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > From V.J. Rada
>
>
>
> --
> From V.J. Rada
>

DIS: Re: BUS: Frivolous AP spending

[Publius Scribonius Scholasticus]

I don't think you can...

Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
p.scribonius.scholasti...@gmail.com



> On Sep 25, 2017, at 1:54 AM, Cuddle Beam  wrote:
> 
> I retract "make Cuddlebeam happy". The other one's useful in its own way.
> 
> On Mon, Sep 25, 2017 at 7:53 AM, Cuddle Beam  wrote:
> dangit
> 
> On Mon, Sep 25, 2017 at 6:07 AM, VJ Rada  wrote:
> Agoran weeks begin midnight GMT monday. That's already happened a few
> hours ago, I think. And if it is a new week, I also get to point new
> fingers. I point not one but two fingers at CB for no good reason.
> 
> On Mon, Sep 25, 2017 at 2:04 PM, Cuddle Beam  wrote:
> > Week soon over so:
> >
> > I create the following Proposal and pend it with 1 AP:
> >
> > Title: Shiny Love
> > Content: Upon enactment of this proposal, for each player who voted AGAINST
> > this proposal and in alphabetical (and transliterated) order, have 10 of
> > their shinies transferred to Agora. Then, for each player who voted FOR this
> > proposal and in alphabetical (and transliterated) order, have Agora transfer
> > to them 10 Shinies.
> >
> > I create the following Proposal and pend it with 1 AP:
> >
> > Title: make Cuddlebeam happy.
> > Content: Upon enactment of this proposal, make Cuddlebeam happy.
> 
> 
> 
> --
> From V.J. Rada
> 
> 



signature.asc
Description: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail

DIS: Re: OFF: [Promotor] Distribution of Proposals 7899-7904

[Gaelan Steele]

> On Sep 24, 2017, at 4:53 PM, Aris Merchant 
>  wrote:
> 
> I hereby distribute each listed proposal, initiating the Agoran
> Decision of whether to adopt it, and removing it from the proposal
> pool. For this decision, the vote collector is the Assessor, the
> quorum is 2.0 and the valid options are FOR and AGAINST (PRESENT is
> also a valid vote).
> 
> 
> ID Author(s) AI   TitlePender  Pend fee
> ---
> 7899*  G.2.0  Arbitor's Union  G.  1 AP
FOR
> 7900*  o 2.0  Come What Mayo   1 AP
AGAINST as per my pledge
> 7901*  o, [1]3.0  Make Your Home Shine o   6 sh.
AGAINST - while this is generally a good change, I really don’t like “calling 
in” being something which is simply done by consent, without any rule-defined 
connection to the text of the pledge. Also, contracts.
> 7902*  G.1.0  Switch no-opsG.  1 AP
FOR
> 7903*  G.2.0  Numerical switches v2G.  1 AP
FOR
> 7904*  G., 天火狐 1.0  Such is Karma v2 Aris1 AP
FOR
> 
> The proposal pool currently contains the following proposals:
> 
> IDAuthor(s) AI   Title
> ---
> pp1  nichdel2.0  Basic Income
> pp2  Gaelan 1.0  The Lint Screen
> 
> Legend: * : Proposal is pending.
> 
> [1] CuddleBeam, Ørjan, V.J Rada, nichdel
> 
> In order to reduce confusion, the shiny pend price is being removed from this
> report. A proposal may be pended for 1 AP, or for 1/20th the Floating Value
> in shines (see the Secretary's report).
> 
> The full text of the aforementioned proposals is included below.
> 
> //
> ID: 7899
> Title: Arbitor's Union
> Adoption index: 2.0
> Author: G.
> Co-authors:
> 
> 
> Amend Rule 591 (Delivering Judgements) by replacing:
> 
>  When a CFJ is open and assigned to a judge, that judge CAN
>  assign a valid judgement to it by announcement, and SHALL do so
>  in a timely fashion after this becomes possible.  If e does not,
>  the Arbitor CAN remove em from being the judge of that case by
>  announcement.
> with:
> 
>  When a CFJ is open and assigned to a judge, that judge CAN
>  assign a valid judgement to it by announcement, and SHALL do so
>  in a timely fashion after this becomes possible.  If e does not,
>  the Arbitor CAN remove em from being the judge of that case by
>  announcement, and SHALL do so in a timely fashion after the
>  time limit expires, unless the judge assigns a valid judgement
>  in the mean time.
> 
> [Allows deputisation to remove late judges by adding a SHALL]
> 
> 
> Amend Rule 991 (Calls for Judgement) by appending the following
> paragraph:
> 
>  The Arbitor's weekly report includes a summary of recent
>  judicial case activity, including open and recently-judged
>  cases, recent judicial assignments, and a list of players
>  interested in judging.
> 
> [Easiest way to fix the Arbitor's pay, but not just a make-work
> report - in the past, regular Arbitor reports have been useful to
> keep players informed about the state of judgements and the courts,
> which promotes more ongoing clarity in the game state].
> 
> //
> ID: 7900
> Title: Come What May
> Adoption index: 2.0
> Author: o
> Co-authors:
> 
> 
> Amend the rule “Agoraculture” by replacing the second and third paragraphs 
> with
> 
>> In the first week of an Agoran month, the owner of an unfarmed Estate CAN
> flip its Farm switch to “farmed" by paying Agora a number of shinies equal
> to the Farm Rate, by announcement.
>> 
> 
>> In the first week of an Agoran month, the owner of a Farm CAN till the farm
> by paying Agora a number of shinies equal to the Farm Rate, by announcement. 
> If
> the Farmer of an Estate does not till it within the first week of an Agoran
> month, the Agronomist CAN flip its Farm switch to "unfarmed” by announcement,
> and SHALL do so in a timely fashion.
> 
> 
> Amend the rule “Comestibles” to read, in full:
> 
>> A Comestible is a type of liquid asset, which can be owned by
>> players. Creating Comestibles is secured. The recordkeepor of
>> Comestibles is the Agronomist.
>> 
>> The Farmer of an Estate CAN offer Comestibles by announcement,
>> naming a number of Comestibles offered and a price per Comestible
>> in Shinies. A player CANNOT offer more Comestibles in a month than
>> 10 times the number of Farms e owns. The Farmer is ENCOURAGED to
>> name the kind of Comestibles on offer after a plant, vegetable,
>> grain, livestock, or other farm good.
>> 
>> A player other than the offering Farmer CAN accept a Comestibles
>> offer by 

Re: DIS: Re: OFF: [Promotor] Distribution of Proposals 7905-7907

[Gaelan Steele]

Double bah. 

I wanted to change voting power to voting strength, but forgot. Also, where is 
the power requirement for voting strength? I checked but didn’t see anything. 

> On Sep 24, 2017, at 11:23 PM, Kerim Aydin  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
>> On Sun, 24 Sep 2017, Aris Merchant wrote:
>> Create a rule titled “Careful what you wish for”, power 1, text: "All players
>> designated as happy have their voting power reduced by one. When this joke 
>> has
>> run its course, any player CAN cause this rule to repeal itself With 2 
>> Support.”
> 
> What is voting power?  Is it related to voting strength at all?  Voting
> strength, of course, being only definable by rules of power-2 or greater...
> 
> 

Re: DIS: Screw all of this

[VJ Rada]

Oh I got two of yours as spam and two of PSS's also as spam! Don't
know why. I think that made one of my old ADoP reports inaccurate,
because one of the registrar reports was listed as spam.

On Mon, Sep 25, 2017 at 4:51 PM, VJ Rada  wrote:
> Got that one, I think you're now good. Yeah, I'm on gmail too lmao.
>
> On Mon, Sep 25, 2017 at 4:23 PM, Rubin Stacy  wrote:
>> Literally how? Most of this list uses Gmail. Maybe it just ended up in your
>> Spam folder? You probably already checked, but I'm just trying to come up
>> with any reason this would have failed because I'm tired of this mess.
>>
>> On Sep 24, 2017 11:57 PM, "VJ Rada"  wrote:
>>>
>>> I _still_ did not receive this message. You're cursed.
>>>
>>> On Mon, Sep 25, 2017 at 3:28 PM, Alex Smith 
>>> wrote:
>>> > On Sun, 2017-09-24 at 22:50 -0600, Rubin Stacy wrote:
>>> >> I made a new gmail so that I can play the game. Please respond so I
>>> >> know that it's working now.
>>> >
>>> > I received this, at least.
>>> >
>>> > --
>>> > ais523
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> From V.J. Rada
>
>
>
> --
> From V.J. Rada



-- 
>From V.J. Rada

Re: DIS: Screw all of this

[VJ Rada]

Got that one, I think you're now good. Yeah, I'm on gmail too lmao.

On Mon, Sep 25, 2017 at 4:23 PM, Rubin Stacy  wrote:
> Literally how? Most of this list uses Gmail. Maybe it just ended up in your
> Spam folder? You probably already checked, but I'm just trying to come up
> with any reason this would have failed because I'm tired of this mess.
>
> On Sep 24, 2017 11:57 PM, "VJ Rada"  wrote:
>>
>> I _still_ did not receive this message. You're cursed.
>>
>> On Mon, Sep 25, 2017 at 3:28 PM, Alex Smith 
>> wrote:
>> > On Sun, 2017-09-24 at 22:50 -0600, Rubin Stacy wrote:
>> >> I made a new gmail so that I can play the game. Please respond so I
>> >> know that it's working now.
>> >
>> > I received this, at least.
>> >
>> > --
>> > ais523
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> From V.J. Rada



-- 
>From V.J. Rada

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Re: OFF: [Herald] More than one way to skin a win

[Aris Merchant]

Is this election being resolved soon?

-Aris

On Thu, Sep 14, 2017 at 8:35 PM VJ Rada  wrote:

> If all of the following are legal to vote I vote {Jeff Probst
> (survivor host), My mother, My father, Murphy's daughter Victoria from
> CFJ 2823, the current Prime Minister of Australia, Former Prime
> Minister Kevin Rudd, Bernie Sanders, o., G, ais523}
>
> On Fri, Sep 15, 2017 at 11:50 AM, Quazie  wrote:
> > I vote [Quazie, ais523, Peter Suber, Steve Jobs]
> >
> > I change my vote to (if valid to do so): [Agora, cats, comex, omd, a Live
> > Walrus, Quazie, ais523, Peter Suber, Steve Jobs]
> >
> > On Thu, Sep 14, 2017 at 5:18 PM Cuddle Beam 
> wrote:
> >>
> >> I dislike having wins being granted by election like this, because it
> >> feels too easy. I vote present.
> >>
> >> On Fri, Sep 15, 2017 at 2:05 AM, Aris Merchant
> >>  wrote:
> >>>
> >>> I vote [G., o]
> >>>
> >>> -Aris
> >>>
> >>> On Thu, Sep 14, 2017 at 5:04 PM, VJ Rada  wrote:
> >>> > I vote {o, G, ais523 if e is a candidate}
> >>> >
> >>> > Note that I have no voting strength.
> >>> >
> >>> > On Fri, Sep 15, 2017 at 10:01 AM, VJ Rada 
> wrote:
> >>> >> I vote {G, o, ais523 if e is a candidate, myself}
> >>> >>
> >>> >> On Fri, Sep 15, 2017 at 9:57 AM, Owen Jacobson 
> >>> >> wrote:
> >>> >>>
> >>> ==THEREFORE, BE IT HEREBY RESOLVED
> >>> 
> >>>   As Herald, I initiate a VICTORY ELECTION, a type of Agoran
> >>>  Decision.
> >>>   All players are valid options, as is PRESENT; non-player
> >>>  persons
> >>>   can also become valid options during the voting period by
> >>>   announcement. The vote collector is the Herald, and the
> voting
> >>>   method is instant runoff.
> >>> 
> >>>    ===
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>> I vote [G., nichdel, ais523].
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>> -o
> >>> >>>
> >>> >>
> >>> >>
> >>> >>
> >>> >> --
> >>> >> From V.J. Rada
> >>> >
> >>> >
> >>> >
> >>> > --
> >>> > From V.J. Rada
> >>
> >>
> >
>
>
>
> --
> From V.J. Rada
>

DIS: Re: OFF: [Promotor] Distribution of Proposals 7905-7907

[Kerim Aydin]

On Sun, 24 Sep 2017, Aris Merchant wrote:
> Create a rule titled “Careful what you wish for”, power 1, text: "All players
> designated as happy have their voting power reduced by one. When this joke has
> run its course, any player CAN cause this rule to repeal itself With 2 
> Support.”

What is voting power?  Is it related to voting strength at all?  Voting
strength, of course, being only definable by rules of power-2 or greater...

Re: DIS: Screw all of this

[Rubin Stacy]

Literally how? Most of this list uses Gmail. Maybe it just ended up in your
Spam folder? You probably already checked, but I'm just trying to come up
with any reason this would have failed because I'm tired of this mess.

On Sep 24, 2017 11:57 PM, "VJ Rada"  wrote:

> I _still_ did not receive this message. You're cursed.
>
> On Mon, Sep 25, 2017 at 3:28 PM, Alex Smith 
> wrote:
> > On Sun, 2017-09-24 at 22:50 -0600, Rubin Stacy wrote:
> >> I made a new gmail so that I can play the game. Please respond so I
> >> know that it's working now.
> >
> > I received this, at least.
> >
> > --
> > ais523
>
>
>
> --
> From V.J. Rada
>

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Re: OFF: [Promotor] Distribution of Proposals 7905-7907

[Kerim Aydin]

On Sun, 24 Sep 2017, Aris Merchant wrote:
> I strongly encourage everyone to vote FOR both "Happiness has a cost."
> and "make CuddleBeam happy." Someone needs to teach em to stop
> annoying other people for no reason, and the penalty is very fitting.

I should say I particularly like Shiny love.  We used to have these sort 
of game theory bribe-the-voters proposals all the time (esp when we had
prisoners' dilemma style scoring for proposals).  -G.

DIS: Re: BUS: Re: OFF: [Promotor] Distribution of Proposals 7905-7907

[Aris Merchant]

I strongly encourage everyone to vote FOR both "Happiness has a cost."
and "make CuddleBeam happy." Someone needs to teach em to stop
annoying other people for no reason, and the penalty is very fitting.

-Aris

On Sun, Sep 24, 2017 at 10:59 PM, VJ Rada  wrote:
> I vote AGAINST on all 3.
>
>
>
> --
> From V.J. Rada

DIS: Re: BUS: Frivolous AP spending

[Aris Merchant]

You can't retract a proposal that has been distributed. We have no
equivalent of self-kills.

-Aris

On Sun, Sep 24, 2017 at 10:54 PM, Cuddle Beam  wrote:
> I retract "make Cuddlebeam happy". The other one's useful in its own way.
>
> On Mon, Sep 25, 2017 at 7:53 AM, Cuddle Beam  wrote:
>>
>> dangit
>>
>> On Mon, Sep 25, 2017 at 6:07 AM, VJ Rada  wrote:
>>>
>>> Agoran weeks begin midnight GMT monday. That's already happened a few
>>> hours ago, I think. And if it is a new week, I also get to point new
>>> fingers. I point not one but two fingers at CB for no good reason.
>>>
>>> On Mon, Sep 25, 2017 at 2:04 PM, Cuddle Beam 
>>> wrote:
>>> > Week soon over so:
>>> >
>>> > I create the following Proposal and pend it with 1 AP:
>>> >
>>> > Title: Shiny Love
>>> > Content: Upon enactment of this proposal, for each player who voted
>>> > AGAINST
>>> > this proposal and in alphabetical (and transliterated) order, have 10
>>> > of
>>> > their shinies transferred to Agora. Then, for each player who voted FOR
>>> > this
>>> > proposal and in alphabetical (and transliterated) order, have Agora
>>> > transfer
>>> > to them 10 Shinies.
>>> >
>>> > I create the following Proposal and pend it with 1 AP:
>>> >
>>> > Title: make Cuddlebeam happy.
>>> > Content: Upon enactment of this proposal, make Cuddlebeam happy.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> From V.J. Rada
>>
>>
>

Re: DIS: Screw all of this

[Ørjan Johansen]

On Mon, 25 Sep 2017, VJ Rada wrote:


I _still_ did not receive this message. You're cursed.


How long before we notice someone has been playing for years, but we've 
never received eir messages...


Greetings,
Ørjan.