Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Language Trophies

[omd]

On Fri, Jun 30, 2017 at 1:15 AM, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
 wrote:
> If you have a non-Spivak, gender-neutral, identity-neutral form of pronouns, 
> I would be happy to take you up on learning it. Inclusivity is making 
> everyone feel included and we can do that by using language that makes them 
> feel comfortable.

FWIW, my impression as a US resident is that increasing societal
acceptance of, and preference for, the singular 'they' is slowly
making Spivak redundant.

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Language Trophies

[Ørjan Johansen]

On Thu, 29 Jun 2017, Alex Smith wrote:


A long time back there was a tradition of using -keepor for an office
that kept records about something (e.g. Rulekeepor). I don't know all
the details of the history there; it's possible that Ørjan does, or
perhaps some other player from that era.


I don't have the original proposals establishing the first (non-Speaker) 
officers, but at least already in November 1993 Ordinancekeepor was in 
use.  The original ruleset had only the Speaker as distinct from Voters. 
(And that + Rule 104 may be the reason why that word is exempt from 
turning into Speakor.)  I assume that either Rulekeepor or Scorekeepor (or 
maybe both?) was the first one, and started as a typo that caught on.


Greetings,
Ørjan.

DIS: Re: BUS: Language Trophies

[Owen Jacobson]

On Jun 29, 2017, at 12:43 PM, CuddleBeam  wrote:

> I'll keep on using him/she/they as I find most enjoyable, and as a variant of 
> English (one that doesn't have Spivak), and given our broad language 
> acceptance, I believe it should be all acceptable.

It’s acceptable, formally, but you’re being rude.

-o



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Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Language Trophies

[Publius Scribonius Scholasticus]

Actually on this issue, I think, if any Agoran once greater inclusion without 
excluding others, then we must abide by that wish and try our best to be 
inclusive to the degree requested.

Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
p.scribonius.scholasti...@gmail.com



> On Jun 29, 2017, at 12:29 PM, Nic Evans  wrote:
> 
> On 06/29/2017 12:49 PM, CuddleBeam wrote:
>> >Spivak is personally important to me. I don't think I've overstated my 
>> >feelings on this matter in the least.
>> 
>> OK. It's alright to have that.
> I don't need your approval.
>> I'm just curious how that is compatible with what you've stated here: 
>> http://www.mail-archive.com/agora-discussion@agoranomic.org/msg36544.html
>> 
>> >Inclusivity: Language is part of culture and identity, and I'm not 
>> >comfortable codifying Agora's
>> >culture to be so exclusive. We already have measures against ambiguity that 
>> >don't disavow entire
>> >tongues.
>> 
>> Wouldn't enforcing Spivak be making it "exclusive"? Aren't there other 
>> (potentially culturally-influenced) ways to express yourself? Or are those 
>> not alright if they don't include Spivak?
> 
> I wasn't speaking in absolute terms, at some point between 'these words are 
> prefered' and 'this entire class of communication is the prestige system' you 
> cross from a difference of degree to a difference of quality (of course, the 
> line is impossible to really suss out).
> 
> We already have prefered words to some degree. 'Reportor' is defined, but 
> it's not prohibited to use synonyms, translations, circumlocutions, or 
> encipherments if other players deem them not ambiguous. But if you constantly 
> avoided keywords, other players might lobby you to stop. In the same vein, I 
> don't support punishments for not using Spivak, but I'm still going to lobby 
> for its usage.
> 
> Broader terms: Culture and individuality is negotiated between individuals. 
> When communicating with others, especially when communiating _about_ them, 
> there needs to be compromise to please both sides. Speak only how you prefer, 
> and you risk hurting them. Speak only how they prefer, and you risk hurting 
> yourself.
> 
> And the personal note: I'm a single Agoran, so my opinion is ultimately my 
> own. But Spivak represents inclusivity to me, by circumventing English's need 
> to either pre-categorize people, or have them explicitly categorize 
> themselves. Symbolically, losing that system feels like a loss of an ideal.



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Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Language Trophies

[Publius Scribonius Scholasticus]

If you have a non-Spivak, gender-neutral, identity-neutral form of pronouns, I 
would be happy to take you up on learning it. Inclusivity is making everyone 
feel included and we can do that by using language that makes them feel 
comfortable.

Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
p.scribonius.scholasti...@gmail.com



> On Jun 29, 2017, at 10:49 AM, CuddleBeam  wrote:
> 
> >Spivak is personally important to me. I don't think I've overstated my 
> >feelings on this matter in the least.
> 
> OK. It's alright to have that. I'm just curious how that is compatible with 
> what you've stated here: 
> http://www.mail-archive.com/agora-discussion@agoranomic.org/msg36544.html
> 
> >Inclusivity: Language is part of culture and identity, and I'm not 
> >comfortable codifying Agora's
> >culture to be so exclusive. We already have measures against ambiguity that 
> >don't disavow entire
> >tongues.
> 
> Wouldn't enforcing Spivak be making it "exclusive"? Aren't there other 
> (potentially culturally-influenced) ways to express yourself? Or are those 
> not alright if they don't include Spivak?



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Re: Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Language Trophies

[CuddleBeam]

> Unrelated mostly but does anyone have any idea why Agora's offices
> mostly end with "or" instead of "er"?


Proto:


Rename Herald to Heraldor, ADoP to ADoPor lol

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Language Trophies

[Alex Smith]

On Thu, 2017-06-29 at 20:39 +0100, V.J Rada wrote:
> Unrelated mostly but does anyone have any idea why Agora's offices
> mostly end with "or" instead of "er"?

A long time back there was a tradition of using -keepor for an office
that kept records about something (e.g. Rulekeepor). I don't know all
the details of the history there; it's possible that Ørjan does, or
perhaps some other player from that era.

This started generalizing into other offices after a while. The
construction was pretty much "append -or to a verb to form a name of an
office that does that verb". For example, a Promotor is someone who
promotes.

To add to the confusion, some office names have been chosen to
naturally end in -or, e.g. Tailor (which does not mean "someone who
tails", even though that'd be a valid retroconstruction of the word in
Agoran English). I think that's partly coincidence and partly people
having fun with the theme.

(There are also offices that fall into both of the above categories: an
Assessor assesses proposals, and the word also means "someone who
assesses things" in regular English.)

-- 
ais523

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Language Trophies

[V.J Rada]

Unrelated mostly but does anyone have any idea why Agora's offices mostly
end with "or" instead of "er"?

On Thu, Jun 29, 2017 at 8:29 PM, Nic Evans  wrote:

> On 06/29/2017 12:49 PM, CuddleBeam wrote:
>
>> >Spivak is personally important to me. I don't think I've overstated my
>> feelings on this matter in the least.
>>
>> OK. It's alright to have that.
>>
> I don't need your approval.
>
>> I'm just curious how that is compatible with what you've stated here:
>> http://www.mail-archive.com/agora-discussion@agoranomic.org/msg36544.html
>>
>> >Inclusivity: Language is part of culture and identity, and I'm not
>> comfortable codifying Agora's
>> >culture to be so exclusive. We already have measures against ambiguity
>> that don't disavow entire
>> >tongues.
>>
>> Wouldn't enforcing Spivak be making it "exclusive"? Aren't there other
>> (potentially culturally-influenced) ways to express yourself? Or are those
>> not alright if they don't include Spivak?
>>
>
> I wasn't speaking in absolute terms, at some point between 'these words
> are prefered' and 'this entire class of communication is the prestige
> system' you cross from a difference of degree to a difference of quality
> (of course, the line is impossible to really suss out).
>
> We already have prefered words to some degree. 'Reportor' is defined, but
> it's not prohibited to use synonyms, translations, circumlocutions, or
> encipherments if other players deem them not ambiguous. But if you
> constantly avoided keywords, other players might lobby you to stop. In the
> same vein, I don't support punishments for not using Spivak, but I'm still
> going to lobby for its usage.
>
> Broader terms: Culture and individuality is negotiated between
> individuals. When communicating with others, especially when communiating
> _about_ them, there needs to be compromise to please both sides. Speak only
> how you prefer, and you risk hurting them. Speak only how they prefer, and
> you risk hurting yourself.
>
> And the personal note: I'm a single Agoran, so my opinion is ultimately my
> own. But Spivak represents inclusivity to me, by circumventing English's
> need to either pre-categorize people, or have them explicitly categorize
> themselves. Symbolically, losing that system feels like a loss of an ideal.
>

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Language Trophies

[Nic Evans]

On 06/29/2017 12:49 PM, CuddleBeam wrote:
>Spivak is personally important to me. I don't think I've overstated 
my feelings on this matter in the least.


OK. It's alright to have that.

I don't need your approval.
I'm just curious how that is compatible with what you've stated here: 
http://www.mail-archive.com/agora-discussion@agoranomic.org/msg36544.html


>Inclusivity: Language is part of culture and identity, and I'm not 
comfortable codifying Agora's
>culture to be so exclusive. We already have measures against 
ambiguity that don't disavow entire

>tongues.

Wouldn't enforcing Spivak be making it "exclusive"? Aren't there other 
(potentially culturally-influenced) ways to express yourself? Or are 
those not alright if they don't include Spivak?


I wasn't speaking in absolute terms, at some point between 'these words 
are prefered' and 'this entire class of communication is the prestige 
system' you cross from a difference of degree to a difference of quality 
(of course, the line is impossible to really suss out).


We already have prefered words to some degree. 'Reportor' is defined, 
but it's not prohibited to use synonyms, translations, circumlocutions, 
or encipherments if other players deem them not ambiguous. But if you 
constantly avoided keywords, other players might lobby you to stop. In 
the same vein, I don't support punishments for not using Spivak, but I'm 
still going to lobby for its usage.


Broader terms: Culture and individuality is negotiated between 
individuals. When communicating with others, especially when 
communiating _about_ them, there needs to be compromise to please both 
sides. Speak only how you prefer, and you risk hurting them. Speak only 
how they prefer, and you risk hurting yourself.


And the personal note: I'm a single Agoran, so my opinion is ultimately 
my own. But Spivak represents inclusivity to me, by circumventing 
English's need to either pre-categorize people, or have them explicitly 
categorize themselves. Symbolically, losing that system feels like a 
loss of an ideal.

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Language Trophies

[Aris Merchant]

On Thu, Jun 29, 2017 at 10:39 AM, Nic Evans  wrote:
> On 06/29/2017 12:32 PM, CuddleBeam wrote:
>
>>Your argument is that the comfort of one person, you, outweighs
>>the comfort of any other persons? And that 'needing to think of
>>pronouns' is an issue singular to you, and not also everyone else?
>
> Possibly. I could be a Utility Monster, which could be curious to explore.
>
> I don't think that strict use of Spivak or not should that much of a
> concern, really. BlogNomic uses no Spivak at all just fine.
>
> I don't play BlogNomic and don't really care what they do.
>
>
> I think we might be blowing this thing up out of proportion too much lol. If
> I've escalated too hard, I apologize.
>
>
> Spivak is personally important to me. I don't think I've overstated my
> feelings on this matter in the least.
>

Whoa there, calm down. I get that everyone has strong emotions here,
but we need not to get into a fight. We have enough players leaving
the game already. I request that everyone be civil, kind, and
otherwise nice to each other. This is how we can best treat Agora
Right Good Forever.

-Aris

Re: Re: Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Language Trophies

[CuddleBeam]

Not really "enforcing" it lol, but more like, pushing for it to be
dominant/widely assumed by many.

Re: Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Language Trophies

[CuddleBeam]

>Spivak is personally important to me. I don't think I've overstated my
feelings on this matter in the least.

OK. It's alright to have that. I'm just curious how that is compatible with
what you've stated here:
http://www.mail-archive.com/agora-discussion@agoranomic.org/msg36544.html

>Inclusivity: Language is part of culture and identity, and I'm not
comfortable codifying Agora's
>culture to be so exclusive. We already have measures against ambiguity
that don't disavow entire
>tongues.

Wouldn't enforcing Spivak be making it "exclusive"? Aren't there other
(potentially culturally-influenced) ways to express yourself? Or are those
not alright if they don't include Spivak?

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Language Trophies

[Nic Evans]

On 06/29/2017 12:32 PM, CuddleBeam wrote:

>Your argument is that the comfort of one person, you, outweighs
>the comfort of any other persons? And that 'needing to think of
>pronouns' is an issue singular to you, and not also everyone else?

Possibly. I could be a Utility Monster, which could be curious to explore.

I don't think that strict use of Spivak or not should that much of a 
concern, really. BlogNomic uses no Spivak at all just fine.

I don't play BlogNomic and don't really care what they do.


I think we might be blowing this thing up out of proportion too much 
lol. If I've escalated too hard, I apologize.


Spivak is personally important to me. I don't think I've overstated my 
feelings on this matter in the least.

Re: Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Language Trophies

[CuddleBeam]

>Your argument is that the comfort of one person, you, outweighs
>the comfort of any other persons? And that 'needing to think of
>pronouns' is an issue singular to you, and not also everyone else?

Possibly. I could be a Utility Monster, which could be curious to explore.

I don't think that strict use of Spivak or not should that much of a
concern, really. BlogNomic uses no Spivak at all just fine.

I think we might be blowing this thing up out of proportion too much lol.
If I've escalated too hard, I apologize.

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Language Trophies

[CuddleBeam]

>accept that culture and to the best of your ability maintain it


I agree with that such an effort should be taken but at this point its
starting to become more satisfactory to see how far I can go with this
while still being "technically correct".

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Language Trophies

[Nic Evans]

On 06/29/2017 12:10 PM, CuddleBeam wrote:

>This, to my mind, is beyond the pale. The fact that you're unwilling
>to 'stop and think' for other people's comfort. The fact that you
>are either willfully or ignorantly conflating 'technically acceptable'
>and 'I can call people whatever I want and not care about eir
>feelings'.

Of course, and my own comfort counts too. Needing to think of pronouns 
all the time is a big headache lol. Please consider me as well.


Your argument is that the comfort of one person, you, outweighs the 
comfort of any other persons? And that 'needing to think of pronouns' is 
an issue singular to you, and not also everyone else?

DIS: Re: BUS: Language Trophies

[CuddleBeam]

>This, to my mind, is beyond the pale. The fact that you're unwilling
>to 'stop and think' for other people's comfort. The fact that you
>are either willfully or ignorantly conflating 'technically acceptable'
>and 'I can call people whatever I want and not care about eir
>feelings'.

Of course, and my own comfort counts too. Needing to think of pronouns all
the time is a big headache lol. Please consider me as well.

DIS: Re: BUS: Language Trophies

[Publius Scribonius Scholasticus]

I agree with nichdel and I also believe this is an instance of when in Rome, do 
as the Romans. Agora has a history and culture of using Spivak and I know I 
mess it up to, but to play you must accept that culture and to the best of your 
ability maintain it

Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
p.scribonius.scholasti...@gmail.com



> On Jun 29, 2017, at 10:03 AM, Nic Evans  wrote:
> 
> On 06/29/2017 11:43 AM, CuddleBeam wrote:
>> >Also, I miss the time when we mostly spoke Spivak
>> 
>> Spivak is useful to too annoying for me to use lol, mostly because I have to 
>> stop and think about the pronouns I'm using.
>> 
>> I'll keep on using him/she/they as I find most enjoyable, and as a variant 
>> of English (one that doesn't have Spivak), and given our broad language 
>> acceptance, I believe it should be all acceptable.
> This, to my mind, is beyond the pale. The fact that you're unwilling to 'stop 
> and think' for other people's comfort. The fact that you are either willfully 
> or ignorantly conflating 'technically acceptable' and 'I can call people 
> whatever I want and not care about eir feelings'.
> 



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Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Language Trophies

[CuddleBeam]

>The issue is that we aren’t broadly language accepting.

Wasn't the current consensus that alternate languages (and I assume,
variants/dialects/etc as well) was OK?

DIS: Re: BUS: Language Trophies

[Publius Scribonius Scholasticus]

The issue is that we aren’t broadly language accepting.

Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
p.scribonius.scholasti...@gmail.com



> On Jun 29, 2017, at 9:43 AM, CuddleBeam  wrote:
> 
> >Also, I miss the time when we mostly spoke Spivak
> 
> Spivak is useful to too annoying for me to use lol, mostly because I have to 
> stop and think about the pronouns I'm using.
> 
> I'll keep on using him/she/they as I find most enjoyable, and as a variant of 
> English (one that doesn't have Spivak), and given our broad language 
> acceptance, I believe it should be all acceptable.



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DIS: Re: BUS: Language Trophies

[Publius Scribonius Scholasticus]

I agree on the Spivak issue.

Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
p.scribonius.scholasti...@gmail.com



> On Jun 29, 2017, at 9:39 AM, Alex Smith  wrote:
> 
> On Thu, 2017-06-29 at 16:37 +, Quazie wrote:
>> I object to all attempts to award patent titles indicated by the quoted
>> message - I don't think this is interesting to codify, and it will rarely
>> get updated
> 
> I also object. Also, I miss the time when we mostly spoke Spivak;
> having pronouns that are both gender-neutral and sentience-neutral is
> useful for being more inclusive of not only all humans, but also bots
> and artificial legal constructs, many of whom have put in good work for
> Agora in the past.
> 
> --
> ais523



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DIS: Re: BUS: Language Trophies

[Publius Scribonius Scholasticus]

I will update it on a weekly basis if that is the concern.

Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
p.scribonius.scholasti...@gmail.com



> On Jun 29, 2017, at 9:37 AM, Quazie  wrote:
> 
> I object to all attempts to award patent titles indicated by the quoted 
> message - I don't think this is interesting to codify, and it will rarely get 
> updated
> 
> On Thu, Jun 29, 2017 at 09:28 Publius Scribonius Scholasticus 
>  wrote:
> I hereby intend with 2 Agoran Consent, individual for each pair of a person 
> and a language they announce that they speak, to award em a patent title of 
> the form “Trophy of the  Speaker”, where  is the language 
> they announce that they speak.
> 
> I announce that for these purposes, I speak English and Latin.
> 
> Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
> p.scribonius.scholasti...@gmail.com
> 
> 
> 



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DIS: Re: BUS: Language Trophies

[Aris Merchant]

On Thu, Jun 29, 2017 at 9:28 AM, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
 wrote:
> I hereby intend with 2 Agoran Consent, individual for each pair of a person 
> and a language they announce that they speak, to award em a patent title of 
> the form “Trophy of the  Speaker”, where  is the language 
> they announce that they speak.
>
> I announce that for these purposes, I speak English and Latin.
> 
> Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
> p.scribonius.scholasti...@gmail.com

I object to all such intents.

-Aris