Re: BUS: Re: DIS: protest voting intention

[Cuddle Beam]

inb4 having only assigned rations of CFJs/Pends/etc is pretty much a
Communist Agora in these parallelisms we're using.

On Mon, Sep 11, 2017 at 1:54 AM, Kerim Aydin  wrote:

>
>
> On Fri, 8 Sep 2017, Quazie wrote:
> > I dislike free parking because it perpetuates the worst monopoly house
> rule -
> > fines and fees are supposed to vanish to the bank, not be some magic
> money
> > pool that causes a game that should be about auctions and negotiations
> into
> > a perpetual slog where nothing interesting happens.
>
> I submit the following Proposal, AI-2, "Community Chest":
>
> --
>
> Amend Rule 2483 (Economics) by replacing:
>They may be owned by Agora, any player, or any organization.
> with:
>Shiny ownership is restricted to Agora, any player, any
>organization, or any entity explicitly defined by the Rules to
>be an Agoran Institution.
>
>
> [Note:  Institution is a very general concept - we can make a
>  university! a bank!  Etc.]
>
>
> Create the following Rule, "Community Chest", Power-2:
>
>The Community Chest is an Agoran Institution.  If a player
>has not done so in the current quarter, e CAN, by announcement,
>transfer all the Shinies owned by the Community Chest to
>any specified player.
>
>If a player uses shinies to pend a Proposal or initiate a CFJ,
>e MAY additionally specify, as part of the specification of
>the transaction, that the funds be used for Charity (syn:
>"Donated").  If e does so, then an instant after the
>transaction is completed, half the value of the transaction in
>shinies (rounded up) is transferred from Agora to the Community
>Chest.
>
>
> [In a Libertarian World, taxes and minimum incomes are replaced with
> Charity, after all].
>
> --
>
>
>
>

Re: BUS: Re: DIS: protest voting intention

[Publius Scribonius Scholasticus]

I like this and will happily pend it, if you do not mind.

Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
p.scribonius.scholasti...@gmail.com



> On Sep 10, 2017, at 7:54 PM, Kerim Aydin  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> On Fri, 8 Sep 2017, Quazie wrote:
>> I dislike free parking because it perpetuates the worst monopoly house rule -
>> fines and fees are supposed to vanish to the bank, not be some magic money
>> pool that causes a game that should be about auctions and negotiations into
>> a perpetual slog where nothing interesting happens.
> 
> I submit the following Proposal, AI-2, "Community Chest":
> 
> --
> 
> Amend Rule 2483 (Economics) by replacing:
>   They may be owned by Agora, any player, or any organization.
> with:
>   Shiny ownership is restricted to Agora, any player, any
>   organization, or any entity explicitly defined by the Rules to
>   be an Agoran Institution.
> 
> 
> [Note:  Institution is a very general concept - we can make a
> university! a bank!  Etc.]
> 
> 
> Create the following Rule, "Community Chest", Power-2:
> 
>   The Community Chest is an Agoran Institution.  If a player
>   has not done so in the current quarter, e CAN, by announcement,
>   transfer all the Shinies owned by the Community Chest to
>   any specified player.
> 
>   If a player uses shinies to pend a Proposal or initiate a CFJ,
>   e MAY additionally specify, as part of the specification of
>   the transaction, that the funds be used for Charity (syn:
>   "Donated").  If e does so, then an instant after the
>   transaction is completed, half the value of the transaction in
>   shinies (rounded up) is transferred from Agora to the Community
>   Chest.
> 
> 
> [In a Libertarian World, taxes and minimum incomes are replaced with
> Charity, after all].
> 
> --
> 
> 
> 



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Re: DIS: protest voting intention

[Quazie]

I dislike free parking because it perpetuates the worst monopoly house rule
- fines and fees are supposed to vanish to the bank, not be some magic
money pool that causes a game that should be about auctions and
negotiations into a perpetual slog where nothing interesting happens.
On Thu, Sep 7, 2017 at 17:52 Cuddle Beam  wrote:

> Ah, OK. Well, if it's cool with you then I think it can be pretty good.
>
> I also like the free parking idea.
>
>
>
> On Fri, Sep 8, 2017 at 2:41 AM, Owen Jacobson  wrote:
>
>> I would make it the Secretary/Treasuror’s responsibility to mediate it,
>> as that information is incidental to tracking e already has to do.
>>
>> Source: am Secretary, have a perfectly good picture of everyone’s Shinies
>> at all times.
>>
>> -o
>>
>> On Sep 7, 2017, at 8:36 PM, Cuddle Beam  wrote:
>>
>> Socialism : D
>>
>> I'm alright with it, but the logistics for knowing who is the benefactor
>> of it might be a hassle, because we don't always have a clear image of what
>> everyone's balance is a lot of the time.
>>
>> On Fri, Sep 8, 2017 at 2:31 AM, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus <
>> p.scribonius.scholasti...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I like this.
>>> 
>>> Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
>>> p.scribonius.scholasti...@gmail.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> > On Sep 7, 2017, at 7:08 PM, Owen Jacobson  wrote:
>>> >
>>> >>
>>> >> On Sep 7, 2017, at 7:06 PM, Owen Jacobson  wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>> On Sep 7, 2017, at 11:05 AM, Kerim Aydin 
>>> wrote:
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>> On Thu, 7 Sep 2017, Kerim Aydin wrote:
>>>  It doesn't take 30 days due to a bug.
>>> >>> [...]
>>>  I'd think about doing so as a protest; the difficulty towards casual
>>>  player economic participation has been pointed out and so far in
>>>  conversations, the designers of the system either aren't seeing the
>>>  great urgency to fix it, or think it's a feature.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Actually, as I think of it, maybe some political hardball is in order
>>> >>> here (there's not enough political wheeling-dealing that goes along
>>> >>> here - among other things, this game is legislative simulation after
>>> >>> all!)
>>> >>>
>>> >>> The registration bug is a form of economic protest, usable by the
>>> >>> have-nots.  So I state my intention:  I will vote AGAINST any fix to
>>> >>> the registration bug (which requires AI-3 to pass) until economic
>>> >>> reforms for basic income are included/addressed.
>>> >>
>>> >> I am, at least, already well convinced of the necessity. I just
>>> haven’t made the time to write a proposal about it. I do have a couple of
>>> loose ideas:
>>> >>
>>> >> * Allow any player to receive a payment from Agora at most once a
>>> week, without objection, if and only if no player has fewer shinies than
>>> they do.
>>> >>
>>> >> * Allow the Secretary/Treasuror to cause Agora to pay anyone, with
>>> consent, out of Agora’s coffers, with a SHOULD guideline to use that power
>>> to compensate for income gaps, or at the expense of immediately triggering
>>> an election for the office, or something.
>>> >
>>> > * Redirect some proportion of each payment to Agora to the player with
>>> the fewest Shinies, with a mechanism for breaking ties (such as “in
>>> registration order”).
>>> >
>>> > -o
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>

Re: DIS: protest voting intention

[Cuddle Beam]

Ah, OK. Well, if it's cool with you then I think it can be pretty good.

I also like the free parking idea.



On Fri, Sep 8, 2017 at 2:41 AM, Owen Jacobson  wrote:

> I would make it the Secretary/Treasuror’s responsibility to mediate it, as
> that information is incidental to tracking e already has to do.
>
> Source: am Secretary, have a perfectly good picture of everyone’s Shinies
> at all times.
>
> -o
>
> On Sep 7, 2017, at 8:36 PM, Cuddle Beam  wrote:
>
> Socialism : D
>
> I'm alright with it, but the logistics for knowing who is the benefactor
> of it might be a hassle, because we don't always have a clear image of what
> everyone's balance is a lot of the time.
>
> On Fri, Sep 8, 2017 at 2:31 AM, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus <
> p.scribonius.scholasti...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>
>> I like this.
>> 
>> Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
>> p.scribonius.scholasti...@gmail.com
>>
>>
>>
>> > On Sep 7, 2017, at 7:08 PM, Owen Jacobson  wrote:
>> >
>> >>
>> >> On Sep 7, 2017, at 7:06 PM, Owen Jacobson  wrote:
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>> On Sep 7, 2017, at 11:05 AM, Kerim Aydin 
>> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> On Thu, 7 Sep 2017, Kerim Aydin wrote:
>>  It doesn't take 30 days due to a bug.
>> >>> [...]
>>  I'd think about doing so as a protest; the difficulty towards casual
>>  player economic participation has been pointed out and so far in
>>  conversations, the designers of the system either aren't seeing the
>>  great urgency to fix it, or think it's a feature.
>> >>>
>> >>> Actually, as I think of it, maybe some political hardball is in order
>> >>> here (there's not enough political wheeling-dealing that goes along
>> >>> here - among other things, this game is legislative simulation after
>> >>> all!)
>> >>>
>> >>> The registration bug is a form of economic protest, usable by the
>> >>> have-nots.  So I state my intention:  I will vote AGAINST any fix to
>> >>> the registration bug (which requires AI-3 to pass) until economic
>> >>> reforms for basic income are included/addressed.
>> >>
>> >> I am, at least, already well convinced of the necessity. I just
>> haven’t made the time to write a proposal about it. I do have a couple of
>> loose ideas:
>> >>
>> >> * Allow any player to receive a payment from Agora at most once a
>> week, without objection, if and only if no player has fewer shinies than
>> they do.
>> >>
>> >> * Allow the Secretary/Treasuror to cause Agora to pay anyone, with
>> consent, out of Agora’s coffers, with a SHOULD guideline to use that power
>> to compensate for income gaps, or at the expense of immediately triggering
>> an election for the office, or something.
>> >
>> > * Redirect some proportion of each payment to Agora to the player with
>> the fewest Shinies, with a mechanism for breaking ties (such as “in
>> registration order”).
>> >
>> > -o
>>
>>
>
>

Re: DIS: protest voting intention

[Kerim Aydin]

I started coming up with a mechanism, but it turned into its own little
game that might be too unstable for basic income:

Free Parking.

Fines or other payments go to free parking.

You can grab everything from Free Parking if your balance is below something.

However, you can't grab from free parking if you have in the last [long time,
I'd say at least 2 months].

How big do you let free parking get before you grab?

Alternate:  you can't grab from free parking until everyone else has.
Last person to grab gets lots (probably unworkable though).

On Fri, 8 Sep 2017, Cuddle Beam wrote:
> Socialism : D
> I'm alright with it, but the logistics for knowing who is the benefactor of 
> it 
> might be a hassle, because we don't always have a clear image of what 
> everyone's 
> balance is a lot of the time.

Re: DIS: protest voting intention

[Owen Jacobson]

I would make it the Secretary/Treasuror’s responsibility to mediate it, as that 
information is incidental to tracking e already has to do.

Source: am Secretary, have a perfectly good picture of everyone’s Shinies at 
all times.

-o

> On Sep 7, 2017, at 8:36 PM, Cuddle Beam  wrote:
> 
> Socialism : D
> 
> I'm alright with it, but the logistics for knowing who is the benefactor of 
> it might be a hassle, because we don't always have a clear image of what 
> everyone's balance is a lot of the time.
> 
> On Fri, Sep 8, 2017 at 2:31 AM, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus 
>  > wrote:
> I like this.
> 
> Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
> p.scribonius.scholasti...@gmail.com 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> > On Sep 7, 2017, at 7:08 PM, Owen Jacobson  > > wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> On Sep 7, 2017, at 7:06 PM, Owen Jacobson  >> > wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>> On Sep 7, 2017, at 11:05 AM, Kerim Aydin  >>> > wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On Thu, 7 Sep 2017, Kerim Aydin wrote:
>  It doesn't take 30 days due to a bug.
> >>> [...]
>  I'd think about doing so as a protest; the difficulty towards casual
>  player economic participation has been pointed out and so far in
>  conversations, the designers of the system either aren't seeing the
>  great urgency to fix it, or think it's a feature.
> >>>
> >>> Actually, as I think of it, maybe some political hardball is in order
> >>> here (there's not enough political wheeling-dealing that goes along
> >>> here - among other things, this game is legislative simulation after
> >>> all!)
> >>>
> >>> The registration bug is a form of economic protest, usable by the
> >>> have-nots.  So I state my intention:  I will vote AGAINST any fix to
> >>> the registration bug (which requires AI-3 to pass) until economic
> >>> reforms for basic income are included/addressed.
> >>
> >> I am, at least, already well convinced of the necessity. I just haven’t 
> >> made the time to write a proposal about it. I do have a couple of loose 
> >> ideas:
> >>
> >> * Allow any player to receive a payment from Agora at most once a week, 
> >> without objection, if and only if no player has fewer shinies than they do.
> >>
> >> * Allow the Secretary/Treasuror to cause Agora to pay anyone, with 
> >> consent, out of Agora’s coffers, with a SHOULD guideline to use that power 
> >> to compensate for income gaps, or at the expense of immediately triggering 
> >> an election for the office, or something.
> >
> > * Redirect some proportion of each payment to Agora to the player with the 
> > fewest Shinies, with a mechanism for breaking ties (such as “in 
> > registration order”).
> >
> > -o
> 
> 



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Re: DIS: protest voting intention

[Cuddle Beam]

Socialism : D

I'm alright with it, but the logistics for knowing who is the benefactor of
it might be a hassle, because we don't always have a clear image of what
everyone's balance is a lot of the time.

On Fri, Sep 8, 2017 at 2:31 AM, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus <
p.scribonius.scholasti...@googlemail.com> wrote:

> I like this.
> 
> Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
> p.scribonius.scholasti...@gmail.com
>
>
>
> > On Sep 7, 2017, at 7:08 PM, Owen Jacobson  wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> On Sep 7, 2017, at 7:06 PM, Owen Jacobson  wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>> On Sep 7, 2017, at 11:05 AM, Kerim Aydin 
> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On Thu, 7 Sep 2017, Kerim Aydin wrote:
>  It doesn't take 30 days due to a bug.
> >>> [...]
>  I'd think about doing so as a protest; the difficulty towards casual
>  player economic participation has been pointed out and so far in
>  conversations, the designers of the system either aren't seeing the
>  great urgency to fix it, or think it's a feature.
> >>>
> >>> Actually, as I think of it, maybe some political hardball is in order
> >>> here (there's not enough political wheeling-dealing that goes along
> >>> here - among other things, this game is legislative simulation after
> >>> all!)
> >>>
> >>> The registration bug is a form of economic protest, usable by the
> >>> have-nots.  So I state my intention:  I will vote AGAINST any fix to
> >>> the registration bug (which requires AI-3 to pass) until economic
> >>> reforms for basic income are included/addressed.
> >>
> >> I am, at least, already well convinced of the necessity. I just haven’t
> made the time to write a proposal about it. I do have a couple of loose
> ideas:
> >>
> >> * Allow any player to receive a payment from Agora at most once a week,
> without objection, if and only if no player has fewer shinies than they do.
> >>
> >> * Allow the Secretary/Treasuror to cause Agora to pay anyone, with
> consent, out of Agora’s coffers, with a SHOULD guideline to use that power
> to compensate for income gaps, or at the expense of immediately triggering
> an election for the office, or something.
> >
> > * Redirect some proportion of each payment to Agora to the player with
> the fewest Shinies, with a mechanism for breaking ties (such as “in
> registration order”).
> >
> > -o
>
>

Re: DIS: protest voting intention

[Publius Scribonius Scholasticus]

I like this.

Publius Scribonius Scholasticus
p.scribonius.scholasti...@gmail.com



> On Sep 7, 2017, at 7:08 PM, Owen Jacobson  wrote:
> 
>> 
>> On Sep 7, 2017, at 7:06 PM, Owen Jacobson  wrote:
>> 
>> 
>>> On Sep 7, 2017, at 11:05 AM, Kerim Aydin  wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Thu, 7 Sep 2017, Kerim Aydin wrote:
 It doesn't take 30 days due to a bug.
>>> [...]
 I'd think about doing so as a protest; the difficulty towards casual
 player economic participation has been pointed out and so far in
 conversations, the designers of the system either aren't seeing the
 great urgency to fix it, or think it's a feature.
>>> 
>>> Actually, as I think of it, maybe some political hardball is in order
>>> here (there's not enough political wheeling-dealing that goes along
>>> here - among other things, this game is legislative simulation after
>>> all!)
>>> 
>>> The registration bug is a form of economic protest, usable by the
>>> have-nots.  So I state my intention:  I will vote AGAINST any fix to
>>> the registration bug (which requires AI-3 to pass) until economic
>>> reforms for basic income are included/addressed.
>> 
>> I am, at least, already well convinced of the necessity. I just haven’t made 
>> the time to write a proposal about it. I do have a couple of loose ideas:
>> 
>> * Allow any player to receive a payment from Agora at most once a week, 
>> without objection, if and only if no player has fewer shinies than they do.
>> 
>> * Allow the Secretary/Treasuror to cause Agora to pay anyone, with consent, 
>> out of Agora’s coffers, with a SHOULD guideline to use that power to 
>> compensate for income gaps, or at the expense of immediately triggering an 
>> election for the office, or something.
> 
> * Redirect some proportion of each payment to Agora to the player with the 
> fewest Shinies, with a mechanism for breaking ties (such as “in registration 
> order”).
> 
> -o



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Re: DIS: protest voting intention

[Owen Jacobson]

> On Sep 7, 2017, at 7:06 PM, Owen Jacobson  wrote:
> 
> 
>> On Sep 7, 2017, at 11:05 AM, Kerim Aydin  wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Thu, 7 Sep 2017, Kerim Aydin wrote:
>>> It doesn't take 30 days due to a bug.
>> [...]
>>> I'd think about doing so as a protest; the difficulty towards casual
>>> player economic participation has been pointed out and so far in
>>> conversations, the designers of the system either aren't seeing the
>>> great urgency to fix it, or think it's a feature.
>> 
>> Actually, as I think of it, maybe some political hardball is in order
>> here (there's not enough political wheeling-dealing that goes along
>> here - among other things, this game is legislative simulation after
>> all!)
>> 
>> The registration bug is a form of economic protest, usable by the
>> have-nots.  So I state my intention:  I will vote AGAINST any fix to
>> the registration bug (which requires AI-3 to pass) until economic
>> reforms for basic income are included/addressed.
> 
> I am, at least, already well convinced of the necessity. I just haven’t made 
> the time to write a proposal about it. I do have a couple of loose ideas:
> 
> * Allow any player to receive a payment from Agora at most once a week, 
> without objection, if and only if no player has fewer shinies than they do.
> 
> * Allow the Secretary/Treasuror to cause Agora to pay anyone, with consent, 
> out of Agora’s coffers, with a SHOULD guideline to use that power to 
> compensate for income gaps, or at the expense of immediately triggering an 
> election for the office, or something.

* Redirect some proportion of each payment to Agora to the player with the 
fewest Shinies, with a mechanism for breaking ties (such as “in registration 
order”).

-o



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Re: DIS: protest voting intention

[Owen Jacobson]

> On Sep 7, 2017, at 11:05 AM, Kerim Aydin  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> On Thu, 7 Sep 2017, Kerim Aydin wrote:
>> It doesn't take 30 days due to a bug.
> [...]
>> I'd think about doing so as a protest; the difficulty towards casual
>> player economic participation has been pointed out and so far in
>> conversations, the designers of the system either aren't seeing the
>> great urgency to fix it, or think it's a feature.
> 
> Actually, as I think of it, maybe some political hardball is in order
> here (there's not enough political wheeling-dealing that goes along
> here - among other things, this game is legislative simulation after
> all!)
> 
> The registration bug is a form of economic protest, usable by the
> have-nots.  So I state my intention:  I will vote AGAINST any fix to
> the registration bug (which requires AI-3 to pass) until economic
> reforms for basic income are included/addressed.

I am, at least, already well convinced of the necessity. I just haven’t made 
the time to write a proposal about it. I do have a couple of loose ideas:

* Allow any player to receive a payment from Agora at most once a week, without 
objection, if and only if no player has fewer shinies than they do.

* Allow the Secretary/Treasuror to cause Agora to pay anyone, with consent, out 
of Agora’s coffers, with a SHOULD guideline to use that power to compensate for 
income gaps, or at the expense of immediately triggering an election for the 
office, or something.

I do have an idea I can put into action myself, without futher proposals, if 
Agoraculture passes, which will give people the opportunity to earn Shinies - 
but it’s morally suspect and doesn’t address the core problem.

-o



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Re: DIS: protest voting intention

[Josh T]

I support this movement.

天火狐

On 7 September 2017 at 11:05, Kerim Aydin  wrote:

>
>
> On Thu, 7 Sep 2017, Kerim Aydin wrote:
> > It doesn't take 30 days due to a bug.
> [...]
> > I'd think about doing so as a protest; the difficulty towards casual
> > player economic participation has been pointed out and so far in
> > conversations, the designers of the system either aren't seeing the
> > great urgency to fix it, or think it's a feature.
>
> Actually, as I think of it, maybe some political hardball is in order
> here (there's not enough political wheeling-dealing that goes along
> here - among other things, this game is legislative simulation after
> all!)
>
> The registration bug is a form of economic protest, usable by the
> have-nots.  So I state my intention:  I will vote AGAINST any fix to
> the registration bug (which requires AI-3 to pass) until economic
> reforms for basic income are included/addressed.
>
> -G.
>
>
>
>

DIS: protest voting intention

[Kerim Aydin]

On Thu, 7 Sep 2017, Kerim Aydin wrote:
> It doesn't take 30 days due to a bug.
[...]
> I'd think about doing so as a protest; the difficulty towards casual
> player economic participation has been pointed out and so far in
> conversations, the designers of the system either aren't seeing the
> great urgency to fix it, or think it's a feature.

Actually, as I think of it, maybe some political hardball is in order
here (there's not enough political wheeling-dealing that goes along 
here - among other things, this game is legislative simulation after
all!)

The registration bug is a form of economic protest, usable by the
have-nots.  So I state my intention:  I will vote AGAINST any fix to
the registration bug (which requires AI-3 to pass) until economic 
reforms for basic income are included/addressed.

-G.