Re: Q: tape drives beyond DLT or SLR
* Bernhard R. Erdmann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> (Tue, Jan 23, 2001 at 10:34:35PM +0100) >>> Work on multitapebackup is (apparently) underway for Amanda NG >> _This_ is good news indeed. So one possible solution would be >> to go for a library instead of an autoloader, start with 1 tape >> of 50 or 100 GB capacity now - and hope AmandaNG will be available >> when we need it ;-)) > What is "Amanda NG"? Amanda Next Generation? Sorry, Ny bad, Amanda Ng is simply my abbreviation for whatever the next version of amamnda is going to be (2.4.2p1, 2.4.3, 2.5, 3.0 ) when I wrote the above I remembred a posting from someone sayign he was working on a multitape patch for Amanda. Gerhard, <@jasongeo.com> == The Acoustic Motorbiker == -- __O For prosimian fun, you can bugger a lemur =`\<, To bolster your name as a pervert and schemer (=)/(=) The lemurs cry "Frink!" as a coy mating call But the hedgepod can never be buggered at all.
Re: Q: tape drives beyond DLT or SLR
Hi! > > > Work on multitapebackup is (apparently) underway for Amanda NG > > > > _This_ is good news indeed. So one possible solution would be > > to go for a library instead of an autoloader, start with 1 tape > > of 50 or 100 GB capacity now - and hope AmandaNG will be available > > when we need it ;-)) > > What is "Amanda NG"? Amanda Next Generation? That's what I implied. Besides that I don't know more. I couldn't find anything on Amanda NG on www.amanda.org neither on egroups. Can someone of the people who seem to know about it give us a clue? Regards, Patrick -- --- WEB ISS GmbH - Scheffelstr. 17a - 76135 Karlsruhe - 0721/9109-0 --- -- Patrick M. Hausen - Technical Director - [EMAIL PROTECTED] --- "Contrary to popular belief, penguins are not the salvation of modern technology. Neither do they throw parties for the urban proletariat."
Re: Q: tape drives beyond DLT or SLR
> > Work on multitapebackup is (apparently) underway for Amanda NG > > _This_ is good news indeed. So one possible solution would be > to go for a library instead of an autoloader, start with 1 tape > of 50 or 100 GB capacity now - and hope AmandaNG will be available > when we need it ;-)) What is "Amanda NG"? Amanda Next Generation?
Re: Q: tape drives beyond DLT or SLR
Hi! Mitch wrote: > On Tue, 23 Jan 2001, Patrick M. Hausen wrote: > > > Unfortunately our customer with the highes capacity needs stores > > precompressed data of several GB per month and wants them all > > available on disk. So we need to plan for full dumps of 100 GB > > and maybe even more. That's why I'd prefer a tape solution that > > gets 200 GB of data on a tape. > > > > For the curious: webserver logfiles - they want at least one > > year's worth of that available online for analysis ... marketing types ;-) > > You _might_ want to consider modifying your strategy here. What > you're describing is really an archive of static data. Why beat > your backup hardware/software up over it when it's static logs? Absolutely correct ... but ... > How about something like this. At end of each month, move current > month's logs into your online archive and cut a tape, perhaps with > duplicates if you prefer the extra security, of just the new bits. > Add tape to your tape archive. Don't bother making periodic backups > of data in the archive, since you've already got it on both disk and > tape, and it's not changing anyway. This means a separate tape drive and/or manual intevention. All servers are located in a remote data center - that's why we want a "change cartridges once a week and forget about the rest" solution ... If the customer is willing to buy a separate autoloader instead of using our standard "data center backup service", we can implement your suggestion. And ... the customers wants _yesterday's_ logs available for analysis today. Together with all accumulated data over the last year up to and including yesterday. They're using Webtrends Enterprise Reporting - this software just can't analyze seperate months separately and give out reports containing the entire period. Still they insist on using it - it generates "prettier" reports than, say, NetTracker, and has a "nicer" UI. There are quite a few other quirks with this product. If you analyze a year's worth of compressed logfiles, WT insist on decompressing _everything_ to temporary storage, then analyzing, then remove the temporary files. It starts one thread per ip address to reverse-lookup ... Need I say more? Sun, IBM, Compaq sure like it a lot ;-))) The customer asks - we suggest and offer - they buy - or don't. I don't have a problem with that, I'm providing _services_. But now I'm definitely getting off topic. > Alternatively, if the above just won't cut it for whatever reason, > and you want to/have to keep this archival data in your regular > backup cycle, this seems like one time when the current amanda > workaround for filesystems too large for one tape will work quite > well. This being the "use tar and make separate entries in disklist > for each top-level directory" approach. Right. Something along this line probably will do the trick. Getting the biggest tape drive available with current technology won't hurt, either. ;-) Thanks, Patrick -- --- WEB ISS GmbH - Scheffelstr. 17a - 76135 Karlsruhe - 0721/9109-0 --- -- Patrick M. Hausen - Technical Director - [EMAIL PROTECTED] --- "Contrary to popular belief, penguins are not the salvation of modern technology. Neither do they throw parties for the urban proletariat."
Re: Q: tape drives beyond DLT or SLR
On Tue, 23 Jan 2001, Patrick M. Hausen wrote: > Unfortunately our customer with the highes capacity needs stores > precompressed data of several GB per month and wants them all > available on disk. So we need to plan for full dumps of 100 GB > and maybe even more. That's why I'd prefer a tape solution that > gets 200 GB of data on a tape. > > For the curious: webserver logfiles - they want at least one > year's worth of that available online for analysis ... marketing types ;-) You _might_ want to consider modifying your strategy here. What you're describing is really an archive of static data. Why beat your backup hardware/software up over it when it's static logs? How about something like this. At end of each month, move current month's logs into your online archive and cut a tape, perhaps with duplicates if you prefer the extra security, of just the new bits. Add tape to your tape archive. Don't bother making periodic backups of data in the archive, since you've already got it on both disk and tape, and it's not changing anyway. Alternatively, if the above just won't cut it for whatever reason, and you want to/have to keep this archival data in your regular backup cycle, this seems like one time when the current amanda workaround for filesystems too large for one tape will work quite well. This being the "use tar and make separate entries in disklist for each top-level directory" approach. -Mitch
Re: Q: tape drives beyond DLT or SLR
* Patrick M. Hausen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> (Tue, Jan 23, 2001 at 10:42:33AM +0100) > I just compared uncompressed capacity. Tandberg's SLR100 gives 50 GB > uncompressed, IBM's Ultrium 100 GB uncompressed. > Unfortunately our customer with the highes capacity needs stores > precompressed data of several GB per month and wants them all > available on disk. So we need to plan for full dumps of 100 GB > and maybe even more. That's why I'd prefer a tape solution that > gets 200 GB of data on a tape. Either that, or partition your disks in 100G partitions, and spread his data over multiple partitions, with symlinks he won't even know it. BTW, note that HP also sells ultrium tapes, which are exactly the same (except the tape box sais HP iso IBM) b8ut sell at 10-20% cheaper than the IBM tapes .. go figure ... > "Quantum Super DLT 220N" with a quoted capacity of 220 GB (that's almost > certainly compressed, so it may have 110 GB uncompressed). > Unfortunately the link to Quantum's website doesn't reveal _any_ > information on that product. Is it vaporware? Well, with LTO being 100 DLT has to beat that .. It's probably going to be there ``soon'' > "Ampex DST 312" with a quoted capacity of 330 GB - anyone used > these? They're helical scan technology which makes me feel a > lot less comfortable than with Tandberg or IBM ... Never heard of those . Of course, wait another year and you can buy Super DLT tapes that store 500G uncompressed and 1 T compressed ... Gerhard, <@jasongeo.com> == The Acoustic Motorbiker == -- __O Standing above the crowd, he had a voice so strong and loud =`\<, we'll miss him (=)/(=) Ranting and pointing his finger, At everything but his heart we'll miss him
Re: Q: tape drives beyond DLT or SLR
Hi all! Gerhard den Hollander wrote: > * Patrick M. Hausen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> (Tue, Jan 23, 2001 at 09:11:36AM +0100) > > > What options do I have for higher capacity drives? > > Amanda still requires the largest dump to fit on a single tape. > > With filesystems routinely approaching a couple of hundreds of gigs > > these days there seems to be a huge gap ... > > > I found IBM Ultrium technology. Has someone used these successfully? > Yup. > > > OTOH they are 100 GB uncompressed - not a _real_ order of magnitude. > > No, > amanda with compressuion should get you to 200G depending on the type of > data) I just compared uncompressed capacity. Tandberg's SLR100 gives 50 GB uncompressed, IBM's Ultrium 100 GB uncompressed. Unfortunately our customer with the highes capacity needs stores precompressed data of several GB per month and wants them all available on disk. So we need to plan for full dumps of 100 GB and maybe even more. That's why I'd prefer a tape solution that gets 200 GB of data on a tape. For the curious: webserver logfiles - they want at least one year's worth of that available online for analysis ... marketing types ;-) > Different backup software that allows dumps to span multiple tapes, in > combination with stackers or taperobots. That's what I figured ... > Work on multitapebackup is (apparently) underway for Amanda NG _This_ is good news indeed. So one possible solution would be to go for a library instead of an autoloader, start with 1 tape of 50 or 100 GB capacity now - and hope AmandaNG will be available when we need it ;-)) We certainly would be willing to help with beta testing, but don't have spare time for development. 2 more options I found on www.backupcentral.com: "Quantum Super DLT 220N" with a quoted capacity of 220 GB (that's almost certainly compressed, so it may have 110 GB uncompressed). Unfortunately the link to Quantum's website doesn't reveal _any_ information on that product. Is it vaporware? "Ampex DST 312" with a quoted capacity of 330 GB - anyone used these? They're helical scan technology which makes me feel a lot less comfortable than with Tandberg or IBM ... Thanks, Patrick -- --- WEB ISS GmbH - Scheffelstr. 17a - 76135 Karlsruhe - 0721/9109-0 --- -- Patrick M. Hausen - Technical Director - [EMAIL PROTECTED] --- "Contrary to popular belief, penguins are not the salvation of modern technology. Neither do they throw parties for the urban proletariat."
Re: Q: tape drives beyond DLT or SLR
* Patrick M. Hausen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> (Tue, Jan 23, 2001 at 09:11:36AM +0100) > What options do I have for higher capacity drives? > Amanda still requires the largest dump to fit on a single tape. > With filesystems routinely approaching a couple of hundreds of gigs > these days there seems to be a huge gap ... > I found IBM Ultrium technology. Has someone used these successfully? Yup. > OTOH they are 100 GB uncompressed - not a _real_ order of magnitude. No, amanda with compressuion should get you to 200G depending on the type of data) > What _do_ multi-terabyte datacenters use for backup, anyway? Different backup software that allows dumps to span multiple tapes, in combination with stackers or taperobots. Work on multitapebackup is (apparently) underway for Amanda NG Kind regards, -- Gerhard den Hollander Phone +31-10.280.1515 Technical Support Jason Geosystems BV Fax +31-10.280.1511 (When calling please note: we are in GMT+1) [EMAIL PROTECTED] POBox 1573 visit us at http://www.jasongeo.com 3000 BN Rotterdam JASON...#1 in Reservoir CharacterizationThe Netherlands This e-mail and any attachment is/are intended solely for the named addressee(s) and may contain information that is confidential and privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, we request that you do not disseminate, forward, distribute or copy this e-mail message. If you have received this e-mail message in error, please notify us immediately by telephone and destroy the original message.
Q: tape drives beyond DLT or SLR
Hi fellow Amanda users! We use Amanda for networked backup. Currently we rely on Tandberg SLR tape drives exclusively. These drives are available at a maximum capacity of 50 GB w/o compression. And they're robust, reliable and _reasonably_ fast and cheap. DLT drives max out at 40 GB w/o compression. What options do I have for higher capacity drives? Amanda still requires the largest dump to fit on a single tape. With filesystems routinely approaching a couple of hundreds of gigs these days there seems to be a huge gap ... I found IBM Ultrium technology. Has someone used these successfully? OTOH they are 100 GB uncompressed - not a _real_ order of magnitude. What _do_ multi-terabyte datacenters use for backup, anyway? I know, if I find something to backup 200 or 300 GB on a single tape, that I will face another limit - the speed of my 100 MBit/s Ethernet network. We already have a separate VLAN for backup only. A rough calculation shows a _theoretical_ bandwidth of ~47 GB per hour without counting packet overhead. And if I fix that by going to Gigabit Ethernet for the biggest servers, I'll hit the SCSI-bus and tape bandwidth barrier ... ;-) Operating systems we use are FreeBSD and Solaris, so we are familiar with i386 and Sparc architecture and technology. Thanks in advance for any comments/hints, Patrick -- --- WEB ISS GmbH - Scheffelstr. 17a - 76135 Karlsruhe - 0721/9109-0 --- -- Patrick M. Hausen - Technical Director - [EMAIL PROTECTED] --- "Contrary to popular belief, penguins are not the salvation of modern technology. Neither do they throw parties for the urban proletariat."
