Re: Harsher action for copy paste
2019-04-28
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — General Game Discussion : Lucas1853 via Audiogames-reflector
Re: Harsher action for copy paste I don't agree at all if the game is not based off of stolen source code and the proper credit has been given. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/429970/#p429970 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Harsher action for copy paste
Re: Harsher action for copy paste I'd like evidence to be required to be gathered before such a punishment can be served. I do agree withthis though if it can be proven that the game has been copy-pasted. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/429976/#p429976 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Harsher action for copy paste
2019-04-28
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — General Game Discussion : ironcross32 via Audiogames-reflector
Re: Harsher action for copy paste Let's say I take the pacman concept. I make my own sounds for the ghosts, the dots, the intro, credits and any exit music, as well as the little level intro bumper. Then I write it all myself, all the code is mine and not taken from anywhere except where properly licensed. SO, that means I get to use libraries I have the license to use, or which are publicly available and I am abiding by the license terms. SO, all my sound, and all my code except for libs and stuff, but the game logic and all that is mine. Any sounds I am abiding by the license terms, etc. Then I can release it and I don't see a problem with that. It's when people release these games without acknowledging where they come from, saying they did this and that when all they really did was reworked some source code, mostly just changing a few constants and variables to make it feel a bit different, then replacing some of the sounds. That, I think, should be punishable on this forum. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/429986/#p429986 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Harsher action for copy paste
Re: Harsher action for copy paste I'd suggest taking the problem back to the root of the issue: don't give your sourcecode away. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/429988/#p429988 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Harsher action for copy paste
Re: Harsher action for copy paste @4, again, if the community can prove that such tiny modifications were made, then I'm all fine with punishment. But I personally am not comfortable with convicting someone (for lack of a better term) based on pure hearsay and suspicion. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/429995/#p429995 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Harsher action for copy paste
2019-04-29
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — General Game Discussion : darren via Audiogames-reflector
Re: Harsher action for copy paste a mob mentality never really works in the long run. i'm all for punnishment where it's rightfully due however innocent until proven guilty. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/430033/#p430033 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Harsher action for copy paste
2019-04-29
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — General Game Discussion : nuno69 via Audiogames-reflector
Re: Harsher action for copy paste If there is enough evdence is the clone, eternal ban for the user, no warnings. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/430038/#p430038 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Harsher action for copy paste
2019-04-29
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — General Game Discussion : Sam_Tupy via Audiogames-reflector
Re: Harsher action for copy paste It's amazing how many people think we just, willingly give code out. There is such things as hacking or steeling. It happens. You shoudln't tell someone to just protect their code because no perfect protection is possible. So I guess if I steel a file from you I'll just laugh and say thanks next time don't give me your files! Seriusly guys sometimes code isn't given, it's stolen. There is a huge difference that really seems to be missed sometimes. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/430060/#p430060 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Harsher action for copy paste
2019-04-29
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — General Game Discussion : nuno69 via Audiogames-reflector
Re: Harsher action for copy paste Don't be ridiculous Sam. From what I know only your great triangle: You, Mason and Ivan are involved in the start of that code steeling competition so yeah. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/430071/#p430071 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Harsher action for copy paste
2019-04-29
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — General Game Discussion : Sam_Tupy via Audiogames-reflector
Re: Harsher action for copy paste lol my, triangle? Not even sure what you are trying to say here. I'm interested though you should tell me in private as I don't want to deface the topic. All I was trying to say is that some people seem to have the misconception that code is handed over, when it is sometimes forcibly stolen. If there is proof of such steeling, yes there should eb punishment. But if someone uses mason's open source scrolling battles code to make a game of their own only modifying the title and the sounds, they didn't really do anything wrong. The best thing to do is just to ignore the topics when they come up and let them drift to the bottom of the forum where they will be forgotten. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/430075/#p430075 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Harsher action for copy paste
Re: Harsher action for copy paste Code theft does happen, even in the mainstream world. A stack overflow (https://security.stackexchange.com/ques … ource-code) answer states some good tips below:Disclaimer: I work for a very big company that does a good job in this area, but my answer is my own personal opinion and is not indicative of my employer's position or policies.First of all, how to protect code from being leaked:• Network Security: This is the obvious one -- if Chinese hackers get credentials into your internal systems, they'll go for your source code (if for no other reason than the fact that the source code will tell them where to go next). So basic computer security has to be a "given".• Access Control: Does your receptionist need access to your code repository? Probably not. Limit your exposure.• Be selective in hiring and maintain a healthy work environment: DLP measures like scanning outbound email is nifty in theory, but if your engineer is smart enough to be of any use to you at all, they're smart enough to figure out how to circumvent your DLP measures. Your employees shouldn't have a reason to leak your source code. If they do, you've done something horribly, horribly wrong.• Monitor your network: This is an extension of the "network security" answer but with a Digital Loss Prevention emphasis. If you see a sudden spike in DNS traffic, that may be your source code getting exfiltrated by an attacker. OK, now ask yourself if you would even know if there was a sudden spike in DNS traffic from your network. Probably not.• Treat mobile devices differently: Phones and laptops get lost really often. They also get stolen really often. You should never store sensitive information (including source code, customer data, and trade secrets) on mobile devices. Seriously. Never. That doesn't mean you can't use mobile devices to access and edit source code. But if a laptop goes missing, you should be able to remotely revoke any access that laptop has to sensitive data. Typically that means that code and documents are edited "in the cloud" (see c9.io, koding.com, Google Docs, etc) with proper authentication and all that. This can be done with or without trusting a third party, depending on how much work you want to put in to it. If your solution doesn't support 2-factor then pick another solution; you want to reduce your exposure with this measure, not increase it.Second, how to prevent malicious code modification; there really is only one answer to this question: change control.For every character of code in your repository, you must know exactly who added (or deleted) that code, and when. This is so easy to do with today's technology that it's almost more difficult to not have change tracking in place. If you use Git or Mercurial or any modestly usable source control system, you get change tracking and you rely on it heavily.But to up the trustworthiness a bit, I would add that every change to your repository must be signed-off by at least one other person besides the author submitting the change. Tools like Gerrit can make this simple. Many certification regimes require code reviews anyway, so enforcing those reviews at checkin-time means that malicious actors can't act alone in getting bad code into your repo, helps prevent poorly-written code from being committed, and helps ensure that at least 2 people understand each change submitted.I'd like to ask, why should it be the forum administrators responsibility to monitor who steels code and who doesn't? I agre that the forum moderators should remove games that have (actual proven) code theft, but that is all they should do. Punishment of someone because they stole code clearly won't help, since if they did it once, they'll do it again. As the above quotation says: "Your employees shouldn't have a reason to leak your source code. If they do, you've done something horribly, horribly wrong." Granted, people who collaborate on games aren't "employees," but the point still stands.I'm also quite sad that people haven't employed the above measures already (it really isn't that hard, ever heard of Keybase)? I'm also quite saddened that people haven't considered license agreements, non-disclosure agreements or both to secure their code. After all, if you've got someone legally bound by an NDA, license agreement or both, you can legally go after them if they do steel code from you (provided, of course, tha you can prove that they actually did steel your code and didn't just reverse engineer it). Reverse engineering and code theft are two very different beasts, after all. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/430113/#p430113 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Harsher action for copy paste
2019-04-29
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — General Game Discussion : ironcross32 via Audiogames-reflector
Re: Harsher action for copy paste Bro, these are audio games, this isn't a work environment. If the forum claims to respect developers, then policies should exist to remove users who do not do that by stealing code, or by not abiding by open source licenses. Now, I understand that this is an undertaking that is asking a lot of the mods, I get that. I'm not saying that this should be a top priority, however, if evidence comes to light that suggests that something of this nature is happening with a particular game, and that evidence is extremely compelling, I think the user should be removed. We want developers who respect each other, and users who respect the developers. Clones of games are fine, especially when said clone is made to pay homage to it's parent game, but this is more than an actual clone, this is just as the OP said, copy pasting code. Now, if you're making games for sale, you're going full out trying to create an audiogames studio, then the measure you suggest are more appropriate. No one is going to go through all that BS though for some free, or low cost games. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/430117/#p430117 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Harsher action for copy paste
Re: Harsher action for copy paste @13, I disagree with removing people just because the evidence is "very compelling." People should only be removed from the forum if and only if there is actual proof that proves that code was copy-pasted or stolen. Yes, the forum should respect developers, but we can't put all of that work on the mods. That's far too much to ask of them when they have lives of their own. Developers of these products need to take their own steps internally to safeguard their code. If they don't do that, then the fault lies with them, not with the forum, and therefore the responsibility lies with them to prove, without a doubt, that the code was stolen from them and has been copy-pasted in another product. We ca't just go punishing people just because evidence is very compelling. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/430120/#p430120 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Harsher action for copy paste
Re: Harsher action for copy paste @13, I disagree with removing people just because the evidence is "very compelling." People should only be removed from the forum if and only if there is actual proof that proves that code was copy-pasted or stolen. Yes, the forum should respect developers, but we can't put all of that work on the mods. That's far too much to ask of them when they have lives of their own. Developers of these products need to take their own steps internally to safeguard their code. If they don't do that, then the fault lies with them, not with the forum, and therefore the responsibility lies with them to prove, without a doubt, that the code was stolen from them and has been copy-pasted in another product. We can't just go punishing people just because evidence is very compelling. That's why I suggested the measures I did in post 13; it is doable and practical. OK quality NDAs are freely available, and though they may not cover *all* cases, they cover the salient ones. Private git hub repositories? Free as free can be. 2FA? Again, free. Code reviews? Free, just takes time. All the measures I suggested are 100-percent doable by any team of developers. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/430120/#p430120 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Harsher action for copy paste
Re: Harsher action for copy paste @13, I disagree with removing people just because the evidence is "very compelling." People should only be removed from the forum if and only if there is actual proof that proves that code was copy-pasted or stolen. Yes, the forum should respect developers, but we can't put all of that work on the mods. That's far too much to ask of them when they have lives of their own. Developers of these products need to take their own steps internally to safeguard their code. If they don't do that, then the fault lies with them, not with the forum, and therefore the responsibility lies with them to prove, without a doubt, that the code was stolen from them and has been copy-pasted in another product. We can't just go punishing people just because evidence is very compelling. That's why I suggested the measures I did in post 12; it is doable and practical. OK quality NDAs and license agreements are freely available, and though they may not cover *all* cases, they cover the salient ones. Private git hub repositories? Free as free can be. 2FA? Again, free. Code reviews? Free, just takes time. All the measures I suggested are 100-percent doable by any team of developers. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/430120/#p430120 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Harsher action for copy paste
2019-04-29
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — General Game Discussion : NicklasMCHD via Audiogames-reflector
Re: Harsher action for copy paste And @EthinOn the note on agreements: Most developers (and users) here are under the legal age, therefore unable to be bound by such agreements like NDA's a other license agreements (that's also why it doesn't work in practice).- NicklasMCHD URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/430124/#p430124 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Harsher action for copy paste
Re: Harsher action for copy paste If the people are in fact under-age then have the guardians sign. Of course, if that's not an option either, you can always exclude that but risk your code. The remaining options still work though and all the rest are still practical. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/430128/#p430128 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Harsher action for copy paste
Re: Harsher action for copy paste Hello,I do agree with such harder actions but as said above, getting the necessary evidence is quite difficult. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/430130/#p430130 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Harsher action for copy paste
2019-04-29
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — General Game Discussion : Sam_Tupy via Audiogames-reflector
Re: Harsher action for copy paste So I thought of something that could reduce spam in the new releases room a lot. For example, mason opensourced a lot of his games and people are free to use that code however they wish. So if they mod scrolling battles and want to post about it, an interesting idea could be to have a game mods room where people could post legal mods to some games. Like, scrolling battles with new sounds isn't a new game and so new releases shouldn't get spammed with it. But it could still be fun to play, so a game mods room, only for games where it is legally possible to mod, of course, could be a place for people to share stuff like this. Anything from new Oh Shit soundpacks to modded scrolling battles to god knows what else could be posted there, and the new releases room could be mch more just for new releases. It's just a random idea I came up with that I thought could potentially be somewhat useful URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/430134/#p430134 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Harsher action for copy paste
2019-04-29
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — General Game Discussion : NicklasMCHD via Audiogames-reflector
Re: Harsher action for copy paste I agree with that idea sam. That would be a good addition to the forums. Something like general, new releases, game mods, dev room and so on. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/430137/#p430137 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Harsher action for copy paste
2019-04-29
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — General Game Discussion : ironcross32 via Audiogames-reflector
Re: Harsher action for copy paste Yeah I like that. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/430140/#p430140 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Harsher action for copy paste
2019-04-29
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — General Game Discussion : jaybird via Audiogames-reflector
Re: Harsher action for copy paste There's something everyone's missing here. In this particular case, although I never downloaded the game, I've read in several posts that the developer stole one or more cutscenes, at least one of which was from The Gate, a commercial product of VGStorm. One assumes VGStorm did not give permission for that cutscene to be used by that other developer in that manner.Stealing code is one thing, and there can be circumstances, particularly when cloners' games are closed source, where it might be impossible to prove with 100% certainty that code was stolen. However, stealing sounds is quite another thing altogether. If you know, and can prove, that you made a particular sound a particular way, someone stole that particular sound to use in any project, and you did not give permission, then you should have a leg to stand on. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/430144/#p430144 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Harsher action for copy paste
2019-04-29
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — General Game Discussion : dardar via Audiogames-reflector
Re: Harsher action for copy paste Hello,I admit, the idea of a separate category for game remakes did not occur to me.I admit this post, rarely for me, was posted out of pure frustration after I read a new release that went along the lines of: I'm releasing this, it's not new, I've just copied this, changed one or two sounds, and put it under a new name.Interestingly, having given the idea a day or two to sit in my mind, I realised actually, I don't care as much as post 1 says, and this topic was written out of pure fustration and a want for something to be done. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/430145/#p430145 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Harsher action for copy paste
2019-04-29
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — General Game Discussion : dardar via Audiogames-reflector
Re: Harsher action for copy paste Hello,I admit, the idea of a separate category for game remakes did not occur to me.I admit this post, rarely for me, was posted out of pure frustration after I read a new release that went along the lines of: I'm releasing this, it's not new, I've just copied this, changed one or two sounds, and put it under a new name.Interestingly, having given the idea a day or two to sit in my mind, I realised actually, I don't care as much as post 1 says, and this topic was written out of pure fustration and a want for something to be done.Edit:I note in the above posts people going on about source code steeling. To be specific, my concern is not where bob copies the get_object function from Jim's game, my concern is where James releases a game called x, and then Jim comes along, swaps out the sounds, and says its a new game.HTH URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/430145/#p430145 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Harsher action for copy paste
Re: Harsher action for copy paste Again, all of this can be solved with a license agreement. If someone agrees to a license agreement they're saying "I won't violate this agreement". (I'd generalize that to include the word "publicly" but...). License agreements are cheap these days. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/430148/#p430148 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Harsher action for copy paste
2019-04-29
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — General Game Discussion : black_mana via Audiogames-reflector
Re: Harsher action for copy paste mods should take positive action, if i'm a mod my self, i'll simply banned them and give them a hard time, yeah, this is a word from a frustrated user in the forum, seriously, that's enough URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/430151/#p430151 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Harsher action for copy paste
2019-04-29
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — General Game Discussion : amerikranian via Audiogames-reflector
Re: Harsher action for copy paste I think that all people including the OP are correct... to a certain degree. What they fail to realize is that code leakage is hard to prove. You can't prove it unless you have 2 copies of the code. Furthermore, it is stupidly easy to edit variable names and constants to make the code look like yours.Consider this bit of code.x=0 def add_to_x(x): x+=1Okay, cool. Very complex code indeed. Let's say I stole the code. If I'm smart, I would go and edit the code by replacing every x and _x with y and _y. Now my code looks like this:y=0 def add_to_y(y): y+=1What's that? It's your code? Nah buddy, it isn't. I don't know what you're talking about. Nope, not at all. Oh, that similar layout, we just have similar writing stile, that's all.How are you going to prove me otherwise? Arguing that the code has a similar layout is stupid at best. Every language has it's own standards, and thus saying that my code has a similar layout to yours would imply that hundreds of people steal code every day just because they follow that standard. That 4 space indention? Totally stolen! The __init__ function was ripped from my code! I'm gonna sue you now!All the jokes aside, if you want a harsher action to be done when a game gets cloned, provide a new way to prove that it indeed is the case. Do you think the mods are not putting enough effort into figuring out if a game has been ripped off? Like I said, when it comes to code we all are in a gray area.As for sound theft, I urge caution here as well. Many audiogames use the same sound libraries, and thus are bound to share similar sound sets. Music is a bit more difficult to pin down. Case and point, Paladin: A lot of what Aaron used can be purchased online or downloaded off of Royalty Free Music. Thus, if I was to go an rip the sounds off of Paladin and use one of the music tracks in my game, you can't tell if I have a legit claim over that track. You can scream about cloning, you can accuse me of being a thief, but ultimately it comes down to trust between me and the community, as it has been mention that you can get a copy of almost any kind of document on the internet if you look hard enough.Of course, I'm talking about individual sounds, not cutscenes. Cutscenes are probably the least mirky area in this mess, as most of them are distinct and have something unique that ties them into the game they are put in to.So, to recap, asking for harsher actions without providing a 100% fool proof method to determine the rights to the code will ultimately result in nothing being accomplished, as you do not have a way to tell with 100% certainty who is right and who is wrong. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/430153/#p430153 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Harsher action for copy paste
2019-04-29
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — General Game Discussion : amerikranian via Audiogames-reflector
Re: Harsher action for copy paste I think that all people including the OP are correct... to a certain degree. What they fail to realize is that code leakage is hard to prove. You can't prove it unless you have 2 copies of the code. Furthermore, it is stupidly easy to edit variable names and constants to make the code look like yours.Consider this bit of code.x=0 def add_to_x(x): x+=1Okay, cool. Very complex code indeed. Let's say I stole the code. If I'm smart, I would go and edit the code by replacing every x and _x with y and _y. Now my code looks like this:y=0 def add_to_y(y): y+=1What's that? It's your code? Nah buddy, it isn't. I don't know what you're talking about. Nope, not at all. Oh, that similar layout, we just have similar writing stile, that's all.How are you going to prove me otherwise? Arguing that the code has a similar layout is stupid at best. Every language has it's own standards, and thus saying that my code has a similar layout to yours would imply that hundreds of people steal code every day just because they follow that standard. That 4 space indention? Totally stolen! The __init__ function was ripped from my code! I'm gonna sue you now!All the jokes aside, if you want a harsher action to be done when a game gets cloned, provide a new way to prove that it indeed is the case. Do you think the mods are not putting enough effort into figuring out if a game has been ripped off? Like I said, when it comes to code we all are in a gray area.As for sound theft, I urge caution here as well. Many audiogames use the same sound libraries, and thus are bound to share similar sound sets. Music is a bit more difficult to pin down. Case and point, Paladin: A lot of what Aaron used can be purchased online or downloaded off of Royalty Free Music. Thus, if I was to go an rip the sounds off of Paladin and use one of the music tracks in my game, you can't tell if I have a legit claim over that track. You can scream about cloning, you can accuse me of being a thief, but ultimately it comes down to trust between me and the community, as it has been mentioned that you can get a copy of almost any kind of document on the internet if you look hard enough to prove your claim.Of course, I'm talking about individual sounds, not cutscenes. Cutscenes are probably the least mirky area in this mess, as most of them are distinct and have something unique that ties them into the game they are put in to.So, to recap, asking for harsher actions without providing a 100% fool proof method to determine the rights to the code will ultimately result in nothing being accomplished, as you do not have a way to tell with 100% certainty who is right and who is wrong. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/430153/#p430153 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Harsher action for copy paste
2019-04-29
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — General Game Discussion : ironcross32 via Audiogames-reflector
Re: Harsher action for copy paste Regarding sound, I would only have cause to complain if a sound was used that I made myself, for example, by mixing other sounds, applying effects, or building the sound from raw tones or what have you. I couldn't really complain if a sound I used was also used in another game, because it could be from the same lib. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/430156/#p430156 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Harsher action for copy paste
2019-04-29
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — General Game Discussion : Sam_Tupy via Audiogames-reflector
Re: Harsher action for copy paste @Ethin, I hate to say it, but most people on the forum could care less about a license agreement. I made one for stw, and though you agree to it when you install, it doesn't stop people from sharing around the sounds and using them and I can't really get anything done legally because of a combonation of being under aged and people being in different countries etc. Then, people will claim that they remade the sounds and sometimes it's hard to proove, etc. The only way anything will be done about code clones here is if the comunity wants something to be done. unfortunately all too many people are of the oh it's a new game who cares if the desecration of hundreds of people was involved in it's creation it's a new game so lets play yay! NTM, by default if you don't include a license agreement source code is closed and can't be used. I don't have to put a license agreement on my personal possessions or that quilt I just spent a weekend carefully sewing to make it mine. If a thief breaks into my house and steels that quilt, it's still highly illegal and I can get help finding it and getting it returned to me. If a teacher finds out that a student looked over my shoulder and copied my test I had been taking, that student would be punished, I don't need a license agreement that the person sitting next to me must be bound to. Similarly, unless you give a license saying that some piece of code is OK to use, it is by default not OK to use. Yeah in theory this could be solved with a license agreement in some ways but it honestly doesn't work in practice, not for most of us independent developers who can't propperly enforce it. Like, I don't get it. Everyone would get mad if they heard about a hacker steeling files from a computer and using/reposting them. But if those files happen to be code? Oh it's perfectly fine no license go right ahead hacker oh can you also steel this and that code from me before the trogen is found out? Thanks! It's the same thing. Code is just files on a computer. It gets unclear if that code has been given willingly, but if it has been stolen, which again, there is no 100 percent impenetrable protection against such theft, they are still stolen files and should be treated acordingly. If someone uses them, by default it is not ok in the slightest. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/430157/#p430157 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Harsher action for copy paste
2019-04-29
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — General Game Discussion : Sam_Tupy via Audiogames-reflector
Re: Harsher action for copy paste So sounds. Some people seem to be a bit misinformed here. People assume that A, all sounds game from a library, or B, all sounds were designed. When I complain about people steeling my sounds, all too many people are like Sam you are such an entitled asshole your saying you designed all those sounds from scratch and/or are calling the sounds from libraries your own? No, I'm not calling the sounds from libraries my own. There are sometimes when I just grab a footstep from the sfx kit and use it. That's not what I'm worried about. But take the redspot item grabber sound. No, I didn't take a microphone and record any part of it. Instead, I spent hours taking at least 40 different sounds from other sound libraries and normalizing, mixing, combining, and otherwise using those sounds from libraries ad building blocks to make my sound. So yes, that item grabber sound is mine. I used sounds from libraries, but hey guess what you also use prerecorded instruments most of the time when making music Should I call you entitled for calling your own music yours because you didn't hand record each piece with real instruments? It's the same thing here. I'm mentioning all of this because it seems that people's view on a stolen sound is really broken right now. There is certainly a middle ground btween a sound being prerecorded, and a sound being from a library. This really needs to be considered when calling a sound stolen. So like, the redspot grass footstep sounds, yeah whatever those are just sounds I copypasted from the sfx kit and thus aren't my sounds. But the item grabber? almost every single weapon loading sound? the barricade bomb sounds? Those are mine because while the original buildingblocks came from libraries, I mixed them all together to make my own unique sound. I'm just putting this all here as food for thought when talking about stolen sounds. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/430160/#p430160 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Harsher action for copy paste
Re: Harsher action for copy paste @27-28, very valid points. See post 25 for the code issue; there is no definitive way to determine if code has been stolen. The only way to determine that (and even then that's not foolproof) is to employ all the items I listed in post 12. And even then you'll miss some. Code theft is so ridiculously hard to prove because everyone will compile the code into machine language, rendering most comparison methods impractical, impossible to employ or completely invalid. If I disassemble two BGT games and compare the first 131072 lines of asm and they match, that doesn't mean that the code wwas stolen by any stretch of the imagination; it just means that both of those games happen to have the same code up to that point in the sections that those 131072 lines happen to cover. Add to that the fact that every modern compiler will include files in the compilation process that hardcodes strings that are not from your application in there (which are from other libraries or from the OS) and you've got yourself a downright mess. The only way to do that is to compare, side-by-side, asm diffs, but who wants to sit and do that? Your source code may be 20-100 pages of source code alone, but the asm output would be 8-10 times that length. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/430175/#p430175 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Harsher action for copy paste
Re: Harsher action for copy paste @27-28, very valid points. See post 25 for the code issue; there is no definitive way to determine if code has been stolen. The only way to determine that (and even then that's not foolproof) is to employ all the items I listed in post 12. And even then you'll miss some. Code theft is so ridiculously hard to prove because everyone will compile the code into machine language, rendering most comparison methods impractical, impossible to employ or completely invalid. If I disassemble two BGT games and compare the first 131072 lines of asm and they match, that doesn't mean that the code was stolen by any stretch of the imagination; it just means that both of those games happen to have the same code up to that point in the sections that those 131072 lines happen to cover. Add to that the fact that every modern compiler will include files in the compilation process that hardcodes strings that are not from your application in there (which are from other libraries or from the OS) and you've got yourself a downright mess. The only way to do that is to compare, side-by-side, asm diffs, but who wants to sit and do that? Your source code may be 20-100 pages of source code alone, but the asm output would be 8-10 times that length. As an example, lets say you have a BGT program that's 15000 lines long. Your looking at a disassembly output of about 12-15 lines long, if not longer. Do you really think any programmer is going to sift through all of that disassembly just to determine if a game was stolen? Yeah, if your willing to pay a CSA to do it for you. But you'll be spending a shit ton of money because CSAs don't come cheap. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/430175/#p430175 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Harsher action for copy paste
Re: Harsher action for copy paste @27-28, very valid points. See post 25 for the code issue; there is no definitive way to determine if code has been stolen. The only way to determine that (and even then that's not foolproof) is to employ all the items I listed in post 12. And even then you'll miss some. Code theft is so ridiculously hard to prove because everyone will compile the code into machine language, rendering most comparison methods impractical, impossible to employ or completely invalid. If I disassemble two BGT games and compare the first 131072 lines of asm and they match, that doesn't mean that the code was stolen by any stretch of the imagination; it just means that both of those games happen to have the same code up to that point in the sections that those 131072 lines happen to cover. Add to that the fact that every modern compiler will include files in the compilation process that hardcodes strings that are not from your application in there (which are from other libraries or from the OS) and you've got yourself a downright mess. The only way to do that is to compare, side-by-side, asm diffs, but who wants to sit and do that? Your source code may be 20-100 pages of source code alone, but the asm output would be 8-10 times that length. As an example, lets say you have a BGT program that's 15000 lines long. Your looking at a disassembly output of about 12-15 lines long, if not longer. Do you really think any programmer is going to sift through all of that disassembly just to determine if a game was stolen? Yeah, if your willing to pay a CSA to do it for you. But you'll be spending a shit ton of money because CSAs don't come cheap. And no amount of action by the community will change this fact -- if you want to determine if your code is stolen, be ready to pay a computer software analyst well over $5000.00 for it, if not more. And be ready to open your computer up to their scans and other analytic techniques. Then just hope to god that the other person who you believe stole your code is willing to do the same. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/430175/#p430175 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Harsher action for copy paste
Re: Harsher action for copy paste @27-28, very valid points. See post 25 for the code issue; there is no definitive way to determine if code has been stolen. The only way to determine that (and even then that's not foolproof) is to employ all the items I listed in post 12. And even then you'll miss some. Code theft is so ridiculously hard to prove because everyone will compile the code into machine language, rendering most comparison methods impractical, impossible to employ or completely invalid. If I disassemble two BGT games and compare the first 131072 lines of asm and they match, that doesn't mean that the code was stolen by any stretch of the imagination; it just means that both of those games happen to have the same code up to that point in the sections that those 131072 lines happen to cover. Add to that the fact that every modern compiler will include files in the compilation process that hardcodes strings that are not from your application in there (which are from other libraries or from the OS) and you've got yourself a downright mess. The only way to do that is to compare, side-by-side, asm diffs, but who wants to sit and do that? Your source code may be 20-100 pages of source code alone, but the asm output would be 8-10 times that length. As an example, lets say you have a BGT program that's 15000 lines long. Your looking at a disassembly output of about 12-15 lines long, if not longer. Do you really think any programmer is going to sift through all of that disassembly just to determine if a game was stolen? Yeah, if your willing to pay a CSA to do it for you. But you'll be spending a shit ton of money because CSAs don't come cheap. And no amount of action by the community will change this fact -- if you want to determine if your code is stolen, be ready to pay a computer software analyst well over $5000.00 for it, if not more. And be ready to open your computer up to their scans and other analytic techniques. Then just hope to god that the other person who you believe stole your code is willing to do the same.As for the sounds issue, this gets a bit easier since there are tools explicitly designed to analyze audio streams. If your able to access the sounds of the target game and you have the sounds of your game, run an audio analysis tool over both and compare the two. If they match, there's a pretty good chance that the sound was taken either from your game or from the same sound library you use. (Don't compare the checksum, that is no indicator here.) URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/430175/#p430175 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Harsher action for copy paste
Re: Harsher action for copy paste @27-28, very valid points. See post 25 for the code issue; there is no definitive way to determine if code has been stolen. The only way to determine that (and even then that's not foolproof) is to employ all the items I listed in post 12. And even then you'll miss some. Code theft is so ridiculously hard to prove because everyone will compile the code into machine language, rendering most comparison methods impractical, impossible to employ or completely invalid. If I disassemble two BGT games and compare the first 131072 lines of asm and they match, that doesn't mean that the code was stolen by any stretch of the imagination; it just means that both of those games happen to have the same code up to that point in the sections that those 131072 lines happen to cover. Add to that the fact that every modern compiler will include files in the compilation process that hardcodes strings that are not from your application in there (which are from other libraries or from the OS) and you've got yourself a downright mess. The only way to do that is to compare, side-by-side, asm diffs, but who wants to sit and do that? Your source code may be 20-100 pages of source code alone, but the asm output would be 8-10 times that length. As an example, lets say you have a BGT program that's 15000 lines long. Your looking at a disassembly output of about 12-15 lines long, if not longer. Do you really think any programmer is going to sift through all of that disassembly just to determine if a game was stolen? Yeah, if your willing to pay a CSA to do it for you. But you'll be spending a shit ton of money because CSAs don't come cheap. And no amount of action by the community will change this fact -- if you want to determine if your code is stolen, be ready to pay a computer software analyst well over $5000.00 for it, if not more. And be ready to open your computer up to their scans and other analytic techniques. Then just hope to god that the other person who you believe stole your code is willing to do the same.As for the sounds issue, this gets a bit easier since there are tools explicitly designed to analyze audio streams. If your able to access the sounds of the target game and you have the sounds of your game, run an audio analysis tool over both and compare the two. If they match, there's a pretty good chance that the sound was taken either from your game or from the same sound library you use. (Don't compare the checksum, that is no indicator here.) You could, of course, listen to the audio file as well, which may be an indicator as well. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/430175/#p430175 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Harsher action for copy paste
2019-04-29
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — General Game Discussion : defender via Audiogames-reflector
Re: Harsher action for copy paste I would say that, while your gathering evidence and trying to get ahold of the original game's creator, the link should be removed ASAP. If it's a false alarm, an apology can be given and the link reinstated. Otherwise, for every minute that link is up, the BS is spreading.Also, something in the guidelines you have to read when signing up specifically about stolen code/assets would be good, so you can't plead innocents.It does get confusing though when you don't have people with the time/knowledge of the original to comb through and see if the code is the same, because then you only have the word of the supposed original creator to go on and often times their is drama involved between the two that makes everything they say suspect. Not to mention that some projects use code snippets from multiple games, some of which could be open source or freely offered classes from the past, and the people sharing the clones take every advantage they can to confuse the issue.Also, stolen sounds. Unless it's a commercial game, or care was taken to protect the sounds, instead of just leaving them out their for everyone, or if the original game was using stolen sounds to begin with (not always easy to tell if you don't recognize them) then it should probably be against the rules.It gets into a gray area though when some of the sounds of the original are from other properties, but not all, does that automatically make it okay to take all of them, even if the sounds are protected? I mean oh shit and ah dammit did it...And reusing sounds from the same library, while foolish, can't always be helped especially if the dev doesn't play many other audio games and wouldn't know, so you could get false alarms.Not to mention the fact that so many respected devs already use stolen sounds to begin with...I think it also lies on the original devs to somehow mark their projects, particularly open source stuff, so that we know. Something that can't easily be removed like hashing or some form of hidden signing in the code it's self or the file's metadata like what producers do with their music tracks.The key would be to share it only as needed, privately, such as with mods, so that the info doesn't leak and people start figuring out how to remove it. That still requires the original dev to be available for questioning though...I guess I would just do more research on how other sites handle this issue, but it's clear that the community doesn't appreciate clones regardless. Maybe we've blown it out of proportion though and we should just let it slide and allow the idiots to have their fun, unless they are obviously cloning commercial products and can't defend them selves satisfactorily.After all, if you already know people are going to be suspicious, then it would behoove you to get your shit straight before posting, so that you can say exactly where everything came from and have it confirmed. Laziness is really no excuse... URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/430191/#p430191 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Harsher action for copy paste
2019-04-29
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — General Game Discussion : defender via Audiogames-reflector
Re: Harsher action for copy paste I would say that, while your gathering evidence and trying to get ahold of the original game's creator, the link should be removed ASAP. If it's a false alarm, an apology can be given and the link reinstated. Otherwise, for every minute that link is up, the BS is spreading.Also, something in the guidelines you have to read when signing up specifically about stolen code/assets would be good, so you can't plead innocents.It does get confusing though when you don't have people with the time/knowledge of the original to comb through and see if the code is the same, because then you only have the word of the supposed original creator to go on, and often times their is drama involved between the two parties that makes everything they say suspect. Not to mention that some projects use code snippets from multiple games, some of which could be open source or freely offered classes from the past, and the people sharing the clones take every advantage they can to confuse the issue.Also, stolen sounds. Unless it's a commercial game, or care was taken to protect the sounds, instead of just leaving them out their for everyone, or if the original game was using stolen sounds to begin with (not always easy to tell if you don't recognize them) then it should probably be against the rules.It gets into a gray area though when some of the sounds of the original are from other properties, but not all, does that automatically make it okay to take all of them, even if the sounds are protected? I mean oh shit and ah dammit did it...And reusing sounds from the same library, while foolish, can't always be helped especially if the dev doesn't play many other audio games and wouldn't know, so you could get false alarms.Not to mention the fact that so many respected devs already use stolen sounds to begin with...I think it also lies on the original devs to somehow mark their projects, particularly open source stuff, so that we know. Something that can't easily be removed like hashing or some form of hidden signing in the code it's self or the file's metadata like what producers do with their music tracks.The key would be to share it only as needed, privately, such as with mods, so that the info doesn't leak and people start figuring out how to remove it. That still requires the original dev to be available for questioning though...I guess I would just do more research on how other sites handle this issue, but it's clear that the community doesn't appreciate clones regardless. Maybe we've blown it out of proportion though and we should just let it slide and allow the idiots to have their fun, unless they are obviously cloning commercial products and can't defend them selves satisfactorily.After all, if you already know people are going to be suspicious, then it would behoove you to get your shit straight before posting, so that you can say exactly where everything came from and have it confirmed. Laziness is really no excuse... URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/430191/#p430191 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Harsher action for copy paste
2019-04-29
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — General Game Discussion : defender via Audiogames-reflector
Re: Harsher action for copy paste I would say that, while your gathering evidence and trying to get ahold of the original game's creator, the link should be removed ASAP. If it's a false alarm, an apology can be given and the link reinstated. Otherwise, for every minute that link is up, the BS is spreading.Also, something in the guidelines you have to read when signing up specifically about stolen code/assets would be good, so you can't plead innocents.It does get confusing though when you don't have people with the time/knowledge of the original to comb through and see if the code is the same, because then you only have the word of the supposed original creator to go on, and often times their is drama involved between the two parties that makes everything they say suspect. Not to mention that some projects use code snippets from multiple games, some of which could be open source or freely offered classes from the past, and the people sharing the clones take every advantage they can to confuse the issue.Also, stolen sounds. Unless it's a commercial game, or care was taken to protect the sounds, instead of just leaving them out their for everyone, or if the original game was using stolen sounds to begin with (not always easy to tell if you don't recognize them) then it should probably be against the rules.It gets into a gray area though when some of the sounds of the original are from other properties, but not all, does that automatically make it okay to take all of them, even if the sounds are protected? I mean oh shit and ah dammit did it...And reusing sounds from the same library, while foolish, can't always be helped especially if the dev doesn't play many other audio games and wouldn't know, so you could get false alarms.Not to mention the fact that so many respected devs already use stolen sounds to begin with...I think it also lies on the original devs to somehow mark their projects, particularly open source stuff, so that we know. Something that can't easily be removed like hashing or some form of hidden text in the code it's self or the file's metadata like what producers do with their music tracks.The key would be to share it only as needed, privately, such as with mods, so that the info doesn't leak and people start figuring out how to remove it. That still requires the original dev to be available for questioning though...I guess I would just do more research on how other sites handle this issue, but it's clear that the community doesn't appreciate clones regardless. Maybe we've blown it out of proportion though and we should just let it slide and allow the idiots to have their fun, unless they are obviously cloning commercial products and can't defend them selves satisfactorily.After all, if you already know people are going to be suspicious, then it would behoove you to get your shit straight before posting, so that you can say exactly where everything came from and have it confirmed. Laziness is really no excuse... URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/430191/#p430191 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Harsher action for copy paste
2019-04-29
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — General Game Discussion : defender via Audiogames-reflector
Re: Harsher action for copy paste I would say that, while your gathering evidence and trying to get ahold of the original game's creator, the link should be removed ASAP. If it's a false alarm, an apology can be given and the link reinstated. Otherwise, for every minute that link is up, the BS is spreading.Something in the guidelines you have to read when signing up specifically about stolen code/assets would be good too, so you can't plead innocents.It does get confusing though when you don't have people with the time/knowledge of the original to comb through and see if the code is the same, because then you only have the word of the supposed original creator to go on, and often times their is drama involved between the two parties that makes everything they say suspect. Not to mention that some projects use code snippets from multiple games, some of which could be open source or freely offered classes from the past, and the people sharing the clones take every advantage they can to confuse the issue.Also, stolen sounds. Unless it's a commercial game, or care was taken to protect the sounds, instead of just leaving them out their for everyone, or if the original game was using stolen sounds to begin with (not always easy to tell if you don't recognize them) then it should probably be against the rules.It gets into a gray area though when some of the sounds of the original are from other properties, but not all, does that automatically make it okay to take all of them, even if the sounds are protected? I mean oh shit and ah dammit did it...And reusing sounds from the same library, while foolish, can't always be helped especially if the dev doesn't play many other audio games and wouldn't know, so you could get false alarms.Not to mention the fact that so many respected devs already use stolen sounds to begin with...I think it also lies on the original devs to somehow mark their projects, particularly open source stuff, so that we know. Something that can't easily be removed like hashing or some form of hidden text in the code it's self or the file's metadata like what producers do with their music tracks.The key would be to share it only as needed, privately, such as with mods, so that the info doesn't leak and people start figuring out how to remove it. That still requires the original dev to be available for questioning though...I guess I would just do more research on how other sites handle this issue, but it's clear that the community doesn't appreciate clones regardless. Maybe we've blown it out of proportion though and we should just let it slide and allow the idiots to have their fun, unless they are obviously cloning commercial products and can't defend them selves satisfactorily.After all, if you already know people are going to be suspicious, then it would behoove you to get your shit straight before posting, so that you can say exactly where everything came from and have it confirmed. Laziness is really no excuse... URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/430191/#p430191 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Harsher action for copy paste
2019-04-29
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — General Game Discussion : ironcross32 via Audiogames-reflector
Re: Harsher action for copy paste @29 *sigh* Yes, but none of it is practical for this situation. You seem to take great pleasure in coming up with these crazy, far out abstract, an infinitely ant fucked to death solutions that might work in theory, but aren't effective enough to put into practice for the thing in question. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/430192/#p430192 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Harsher action for copy paste
Re: Harsher action for copy paste @31, if you can prove that none of what I've said is practical, please do so. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/430202/#p430202 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Harsher action for copy paste
2019-04-29
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — General Game Discussion : dardar via Audiogames-reflector
Re: Harsher action for copy paste Can we not turn this into a coding debate, pretty please?Why do topics like this always have to become political.To rail this back on track, I reemphasise, my problem is even when a developer doesn't hide the fact his or her game is not new, and it is merely a different game with a few, ultimately minor, tweaks.Soltuions to this, what I feel is a problem, is what I was looking for. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/430208/#p430208 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Harsher action for copy paste
2019-04-30
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — General Game Discussion : nuno69 via Audiogames-reflector
Re: Harsher action for copy paste Hey Sam,Kinda OT but still, I dropper you a PM regarding the triangle lol URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/430259/#p430259 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Harsher action for copy paste
2019-04-30
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — General Game Discussion : NicklasMCHD via Audiogames-reflector
Re: Harsher action for copy paste But @Ethin, you're missing the point. As @Sam_Tupy said, there's no point in making a license agreement since no one (or almost no one) are gonna abide by said license agreement (and trost me, I llike sam, talk from experience). URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/430275/#p430275 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Harsher action for copy paste
Re: Harsher action for copy paste Something else to point out:You people are talking about stolen code, and that's a really gray area.If you and your buddy make a game, sorta kinda share the code or dev responsibilities, and your buddy runs off, uses some of your code and makes his own game, is it stealing?Hear me out. If he is not bound by an NDA or license agreement, if you agreed to give him access and then he kept/modified things on you, then it gets awfully blurry. We aren't, in most cases here, talking about someone who literally hacked your laptop or cloud account or whatever else in order to get at your code. In some cases, we are quite obviously talking about decompiling, and that's not a good thing. My point is that in some of the past situations where people were shouting "thief!", I'm just...not sure.In the case prompted by this topic, however? It's game, set, match. The cutscenes seal it for me. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/430302/#p430302 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Harsher action for copy paste
2019-04-30
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — General Game Discussion : cartertemm via Audiogames-reflector
Re: Harsher action for copy paste I'd like to weigh in with my opinions here. Kinda wish I would've came across this before now but sooner is better than later I suppose.@nuno69 and others with the opinion that these copypaste mashups we all love so much are purely limited to the audiogaming community. I wish I knew another way of telling you just how wrong you happen to be. If you had done your research beforehand, you would have noticedthemanysuchleakseverywhereyoulook.Sam Ivan Mason and myself were at the forefront for some time, but that's purely a result of our playerbase in addition to the undeniable spirts of immaturity to accompany growing up. Plus I fail to see how your point even matters. So what, security wasn't as enforced as it should have been, duh. And? Is that enough to be condemned not only by those for which this topic has been written but others as well? No, no I don't believe it does. the subset of the community, your metaphorical triangle, isn't of much consequence in the grand scheme of things. I wish we could actually discuss the issue in question without unnecessarily continuing to overstate the unfortunate reality.Even in larger companies, where you'd think enforcement of security protocols would be of upmost importance, there's always an untrustworthy and well-informed insider ready to get the ball rolling. For cash or anon publicity or simple shits and giggles, it happens. Needless to say, the number of clones/unauthorized copypasted snippets is pretty insane even to this day. Take the old case of halflife back in 2003. I'd be willing to bet at the number of scenarios. The mainstream community filters it, though, due to the amazing number of legitimate hits that completely rival anything anyone could cook up in their basement with little compensation hacking away at a codebase that probably isn't worth touching. for the few young teens who decide to venture down the rabbit hole, they're rewarded with a couple close friends as players, bragging rights and just maybe some quick show and tell.Sadly, as many are quick to point out, we're a minority. The number of really really good games to our name isn't much to write home about. So of course the loud ones get most of the attention be it by sneer or flame.I digress, however. While a license can't necessarily prohibit copying from a codebase by someone already dead set on illegality, this isn't the only use. It acts as an assertion of your rights in strict detail. when you post to this forum, you do so under strict EU copyright law. The meaning behind no license is rather iffy, in most cases forbidding use altogether. Meaning, technically speaking anyway, none of Masons open source projects are actually able to be employed in any context. They've been allowed for the most part though, I'm pretty sure I remember seeing a tweat of some sort where he said he basically had no care in the world. But aside from that? I feel like the term open-source is thrown around incorrectly all too often.If someone makes a game, releasing with a license that states in every way that nobody is allowed to use content anywhere else, we here on the forum have no choice but to respect such a decision. Open source or not. There's only so much you can do obviously, but thankfully very few have gotten clever enough to remove all traces. I am of the opinion that a more hands on approach is necessary, at least at this time. As Defender said an apology would most certainly be warranted. I don't believe it would be too terribly hard to spot the dev who worked tirelessly to create something vs the dev who opened up notepad, changed a couple variables, and released to the masses. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/430303/#p430303 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Harsher action for copy paste
2019-04-30
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — General Game Discussion : ironcross32 via Audiogames-reflector
Re: Harsher action for copy paste I think the scenario set out by Jayde does constitute theft. If I collaborate with someone, that gives me no right to just take the entire project, and do my own thing with it, then release it under my name and my name only. Collaboration means working with others toward some mutually acceptable goal. It would be no different if I were to allow a friend to stay with me in my apartment, and then he ended up leaving with my TV. That is more tangible, maybe you can get the police to step in and try to get the TV back. Code is intellectual property, it represents the culmination of effort. And, while you might not identify code by one line, or while one line of code may not be unique or significant, the classes and objects represented by those classes, and higher up the tree, things like your game engine; all those things represent intellectual property.Then we have people who say yes do more with others, work together, collaborate more, one person can't do all this work. Form teams, we need bigger games from larger teams. Well, would any of you honestly be motivated to form such a team if this could be the result of your work? What if code is stolen by one member after tens of thousands of hours were pumped into a large project? I think people are just not motivated to go down this path, and I sure can't blame them, for the reward is likely to be a bite in the ass. So, if we want to see bigger games, actual development teams starting up, then we need to do something about this. We need to get rid of people who are known to do this, I say known, not suspected, as I don't want to allow this to devolve into a witch hunt. I'm not sure how, but if at all possible, we need to become more proactive about this. Right now, the only thing that is being done is reacting to case by case situations. We need to allay the fears that code stealing practices are - I don't want to use the word welcomed - but perhaps loosely tolerated here. Then, off forum, if you are told by someone who is your friend, look what I have, and you see this type of thing, disassociate yourself from that person. Remember, you have your entire lives to make friends, but you want real friends, not these fake friends who only care about you as a source of something; whether that be entertainment, someone to kick around, code, whatever else. Also, if you know of anyone who is doing this, write the devs privately, either on Skype if you have them, or if they have a contact email or something on their website.Mosquitoes breed in stagnant waters. Right now, this forum is a breeding ground for those code stealing little buggers. I don't have the answers on how to stop this, I'm not a developer, and I'm not that clever. It will take multiple heads coming together to begin to come up with a viable solution, not just one. On top of that, the solution needs to be fair to everyone, making sure not to come down on people who don't deserve it. I do feel strongly about this though. Having come to some sort of resolution, I feel that in time, this will cause others to feel a bit safer in spreading out the effort.Of course, devs also need to tighten their security, perhaps not going so far as the measures Ethin has laid out, as I don't see how that can really be called suitable for smaller projects, but limiting exposure to code is certainly a start. I can list out some practical things that come to mind, just using common sense. First of all, dropbox. Limit the number of people you allow to be in your beta dropbox if you have one. I would say no more than 10, and I see that as pushing things. Your code should never be stored in that folder, for any reason, for any length of time! I don't care if Dave says it won't run on his system, but it will on everyone else's, so you decide to give him a development build. Let's say you make the game in Python, and you know he has it on his system, no, stop right there, compile it, cythonize it, bundle it. Never give debug builds as pure source code. I would also be wary of anyone I knew was a developer joining the beta dropbox, because they might want to try to decompile the code and reverse engineer it. I would only allow devs in a beta dropbox if I were very sure of them. This also goes for any other method of sharing things. Also, don't bring any other developers into your group without talking it over with the entire group. Even if you had the initial idea, and feel like you're the leader, talk to everyone and gather opinions. Maybe someone knows something about this person that you don't, and that information is vital to have. I wouldn't even send code to my good friends if I weren't certain about their security consciousness. Because, while they might not attempt to do you dirty, they might end up getting the code stolen from them, because someone found it through NVDA remote or s
Re: Harsher action for copy paste
2019-04-30
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — General Game Discussion : defender via Audiogames-reflector
Re: Harsher action for copy paste It could also help cut down on this kinda crap if we insisted that extremely buggy/bare bones games went in the dev room. A comprehensive rule about such a thing won't fit every game because their is no real point at which you can say if a game is too basic, it's kind of a matter of opinion.So I think that you'd want to take it on a case by case basis, and if you were unsure you'd ask other mods for their opinion, just as you would when deciding weather or not to mark a game as illegal.Again though, the link should definitely be removed ASAP, and maybe even lock the topic until a decision has been made, so that you don't have to watch it like a hawk for other links.This type of review process, kinda like registration actually, but only for suspicious games, might help keep things running more smoothly. Besides, it's just as easy to unlock a topic or move one back to where it came from as it is to lock it or move it to the dev room, and no one worth listening too thinks mods are required to be infallible.Since it's hard to prove otherwise, only two staff are even qualified to examine code that I know of, and communication is often an issue, I'd personally air on the side of suspicion. You may get a bit of backlash, but not generally by people who can actually vouch for the game personally, and even then their are other places you can spread the news of a new game.I still think that hiding some kind of identifiers in your code/metadata could be useful though, even for open source projects. I'd really like to see that become the norm, as I think it's just kind of common sense and if you don't go bragging about it everywhere, most of the noobs who create these sudo games won't even know where to begin finding it anyway.It doesn't even need to be something fancy, in fact the simpler the better really, as long as it's effective. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/430409/#p430409 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Harsher action for copy paste
2019-05-01
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — General Game Discussion : dardar via Audiogames-reflector
Re: Harsher action for copy paste What about a voting system?Let the user base decide. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/430464/#p430464 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Harsher action for copy paste
Re: Harsher action for copy paste The user base has proven far too volatile when it comes to subjects like this. I'm not talking about myself, but many others, have been quite happy to accuse people of cloning or steeling code without any evidence whatsoever, the case with Fighter2005 notwithstanding (though I did not verify that). URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/430519/#p430519 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Harsher action for copy paste
2019-05-01
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — General Game Discussion : devinprater via Audiogames-reflector
Re: Harsher action for copy paste Why not just moderate the new releases room? Like, have every new post be evaluated by a few moderators, one of which should be able to code. The developer who wants this posted should be in contact, and a while spent on the game should be done in order to test it, not only for copy paste, but for general quality. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/430608/#p430608 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Harsher action for copy paste
2019-05-01
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — General Game Discussion : defender via Audiogames-reflector
Re: Harsher action for copy paste I think if every game had to go through that process, it would slow things to a crawl, and make the site even less up to date. It already takes a long time for games to be added to the database (sometimes years) and the news often has gaps of a couple months or more as well.I also agree with Ethin about the voting system. Nice idea in theory, but there are just way to many people who love drama/get easily caught up in the mob mentality to let that work. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/430711/#p430711 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Harsher action for copy paste
2019-05-02
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — General Game Discussion : devinprater via Audiogames-reflector
Re: Harsher action for copy paste The new releases room, not just the database. I don't think we get nearly enough new games for this to hurt things much. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/430836/#p430836 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
