Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] The Blind Testing Controversy
opaqueice;410870 Wrote: the industry needs to focus on the areas that matter, and stop getting distracted by mysticism and bogus received wisdom. Clearly what matters to you and other posters here is NOT the feeling of music! Listening to music is by all means a SUBJECTIVE action, there is nothing scientific about it unless you dont care about music and just sound! this forum is populated by sound geeks. You guys arent sensible enough to feel shivers thats why you resort to (pseudo) science. Listening to music involves all the senses, sight, touch, smell... you guys just dont get it... continue convincing yourselves of perfectly reproduced SOUND! -- GuyDebord '*LAST.FM*' (http://www.last.fm/user/bloodyrosa) - SPEAKERS: Kharma CRM 3.2FE - v/d Hul Inspiration - PRE: Lyngdorf DPA-1 - Kharma Grand Reference XLR's - AMP: Halcro MC20 - ANALOGUE: Clearaudio Ambient CMB, Satisfy Carbon Lyra Helikon SL, ASR Basis Exclusive phono pre - Acoustic Zen Silver Reference II XLRs - DIGITAL: Slim Devices Transporter - Siltech Golden Ridge AES/EBU - AC: PS Audio Power Plant Premier, PS Audio Statement(PPP), ASR Magic Cord(ASR), Siltech SPX30 MKII's for the Lyngdorf, Halcro Transporter GuyDebord's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=14587 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=61877 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] The Blind Testing Controversy
JezA;410808 Wrote: No it is not my position. I said that A-B-X testing is a poor way of evaluating components, because it is more a test of memory than anything else. OK, so you feel that memory is not a good mechanism to compare audio components. Let's suppose it's true, and then consider your next statement: JezA;410808 Wrote: It is perfectly possible to compare two components. Do you understand that? No, I don't understand. How exactly do you suggest two audio components can be compared without using memory? -- cliveb Transporter - ATC SCM100A cliveb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=348 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=61877 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Sound issue, Duet. Will an external DAC help?
I have just got a DacMagic and am very happy with it. A definite improvement over my SB3. Paul -- plinford plinford's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=29168 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=61755 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] The Blind Testing Controversy
There's a number of things I'd like to respond to, so let's gather them all in one post: honestguv;410861 Wrote: cliveb;410749 Wrote: The Blind Testing Controversy There is nothing controversial about blind testing. Sorry - I didn't mean to suggest that there is any doubt about the validity of blind testing per se. I was only referring to the arguments it causes in the audio world. I was originally going to use the title The Blind Testing Bunfight, but felt that word might be too UK-centric. On reflection, controversy was the wrong word to use. opaqueice;410870 Wrote: cliveb;410749 Wrote: The Objectivist typically considers that to allow oneself to be influenced by these other factors is some kind of character flaw. While I obviously can't speak for others, I haven't found that characterization to be at all accurate. In I don't think I've ever encountered that view, despite reading more comments on this debate than I care to admit. CatBus made the same comment: that Objectivists are not making such an accusation. I've therefore clearly misinterpreted the things I've seen written on these and other forums for many years now. Countless times I've seen phrases like you're deluding yourself and you're imagining it. Reading between the lines, these phrases seem to be implying that this delusion/imagination implies some level of gullibility. CatBus;410880 Wrote: cliveb;410749 Wrote: The Objectivist seems to take the view that since there is no difference in the detectable soundfield (as evidenced by a blind comparison) Usually I'm not this pedantic, but it seems to make a difference here. Failing to demonstrate a perceptible difference in a double-blind test does NOT mean that the difference can't be perceived! Not sure I understand exactly what you're saying here. Are you pointing out that a double-blind test can only give a statistical confidence level, and that 100% proof is never possible? Or are you saying that, having failed to detect a difference in a blind test, a difference might be perceived by some other comparison method? CatBus;410880 Wrote: Failing to prove the existence of something is not the same as proving the lack of something. Perhaps in mathematics proof has this rigorous meaning, but in all other areas, nothing can ever be proved. Therefore we take the pragmatic view that proof means almost certainly true on the basis of the evidence. And if someone scores 50% in an ABX test with 20 or more test runs, I contend that their inability to perceive a difference is proved beyond all reasonable doubt. -- cliveb Transporter - ATC SCM100A cliveb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=348 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=61877 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] To pre or not to pre
cliveb;410709 Wrote: There seems to be a contradiction in your recommendations here. Is there a typo, perhaps? Do you think attenuators are a good idea or not, and if not, why? (FWIW, my view is that using passive attenuation for correct gain staging is crucial). I have to admit that I could have been clearer. I meant no pre amp (my use of 'direct'), but use passive attenuators to match output of Transporter to the sensitivity of the power amp. -- Andy8421 Andy8421's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=16846 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=61821 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] To pre or not to pre
TC Electronic has a simple passive device, called Level Pilot, for that purpose! :-) http://www.tcelectronic.com/levelpilotstudio.asp -- Meridion Songs: 15'228 - Albums: 1'259 - Artists: 884 Meridion's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=18619 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=61821 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] To pre or not to pre
Ok, I'm asking again: what would be the difference between using passive attenuation using a passive preamp stage and the same attenuation using in-line attenuators? In his posts, cliveb is the only one who consequently speaks about avoiding *active* preamps: here I can see the argument. But why should the same apply to passive ones? These should act just like variable attenuators I thought? On the attenuator page in the WiKi, a passive preamp of Creek is mentioned as a recommended attenuator for unbalanced connections. So why would using an Endler attenuator with a power amp be different from using a passive balanced stage like in the Ayre AX-7e? I understand that you wouldn't use Endler attenuators to regulate the volume normally. But wouldn't a passive stage where you can use the attenuation level as volume regulator be preferable? (Of course, the quality of the used attenuators makes a difference.) Teus -- Teus de Jong Teus de Jong's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=15415 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=61821 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] The Blind Testing Controversy
cliveb, you need to listen to some music. go to a concert even. -- JezA JezA's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=21219 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=61877 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] To pre or not to pre
Teus de Jong;411013 Wrote: Ok, I'm asking again: what would be the difference between using passive attenuation using a passive preamp stage and the same attenuation using in-line attenuators? In his posts, cliveb is the only one who consequently speaks about avoiding *active* preamps: here I can see the argument. But why should the same apply to passive ones? These should act just like variable attenuators I thought? In principle a purely passive preamp should behave pretty much the same as fixed passive attenuation. Possible differences I can think of that might (or might not) be important: 1. Some passive preamps will use potentiometers. No potentiometer can track 100% accurately. Using selected resistors in a fixed or stepped attenuator will be more accuate. 2. As you adjust the volume setting of a passive preamp (or stepped attenuator), its input and output impedances vary. It may be that at your preferred listening level these impedances go sufficiently far outside the optimal range that they affect the frequency response. A fixed attenuator can select suitable resistances so as to avoid that possibility. I have to stress that the above are just possibilities that occur to me. I have no actual evidence that either theoretical disadvantage of a passive preamp would be an issue in practice. The only genuinely obvious advantage I can see for fixed attenuation is that it's cheaper - especially if you do it yourself (when it costs pennies). -- cliveb Transporter - ATC SCM100A cliveb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=348 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=61821 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] To pre or not to pre
Thanks for the answer cliveb. I see the rationale in all three arguments. Teus -- Teus de Jong Teus de Jong's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=15415 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=61821 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Linn Klimax DS - Network Music Player
El Duderino wrote: Oh, and Robin, its El Duderino ;) :p R. ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] The Blind Testing Controversy
JezA;411022 Wrote: cliveb, you need to listen to some music. go to a concert even. What is the purpose of that comment? I take it you won't (or can't) explain how to compare two components without using your memory, then? -- cliveb Transporter - ATC SCM100A cliveb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=348 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=61877 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] A/B SB3 vs Transporter
The point is not whether there is a differencee between the dacs , but whether you like any of the DACS. My take on the TP's dac is that it is analytical and not that much better than the Sb's ... I dont enjoy listening to it..your mileage may vary. I recon both units are best used as high end transports which leaves you free to find the dac that you like instead fo being tied to either - if that is the direction you take then keep the cheaper SB as its digital output is as good as the TP's The TP might have other advantages over the SB that make it worthwhile , like its balanced analog outputs , its ability to act as both a digital and normal pre , its ability to feed its own dac and thus insert some sort of DSP processor, looks , high res files and so on. -- Rodney_Gold Sb3/Z-sys RDP1/meridian DSP5500's TP/X-cans v3/Senns 650's TP/TACT 2.0/SCM 50a's TP/Meridian DSP5000's The nicest thing about smacking your head against the wall is...the feeling you get when you stop Rodney_Gold's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=14618 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=61686 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] 16-44 vs 24-96
If you produce two tones of say 22khz and 23khz then its true you probably wont hear the pure tones. However, when two tones are close together they intefere and an extra tone or beat is produced, which can be heard. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beat_(acoustics) -- chalkandtalk chalkandtalk's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=16980 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=60973 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Convertissor N/A or not convertissor ?
Hello, I would like to install a N/A convertissor between my SQ3 classic and my old (but good) analogical amplificator. Could you give me any information on the result ? Is it better than analogical way ? Anyone could inform me on a good N/A convertissor (below 1000 USD) ? What brand ? Where to buy it ? Thanks Mèregrand of Toulouse. -- MèreGrand MèreGrand's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=28567 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=61928 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] The Blind Testing Controversy
cliveb;410994 Wrote: Not sure I understand exactly what you're saying here. Are you pointing out that a double-blind test can only give a statistical confidence level, and that 100% proof is never possible? Or are you saying that, having failed to detect a difference in a blind test, a difference might be perceived by some other comparison method? A little of both. Mostly I'm saying all tests results are, at best, limited by the conditions under which the test was administered. And then, my pedantry added that people need to be careful about saying they've proved the negative. It's simply more professional and correct to talk about confidence. Perhaps in mathematics proof has this rigorous meaning, but in all other areas, nothing can ever be proved. I can hear a 1KHz tone. I can prove that, even to people who swear up and down that I can't. There is a pigeon in my back yard. I can prove that, even to hardcore pigeon deniers. However, I cannot convince hardcore pigeon believers that there ISN'T a pigeon in my yard. It's a different thing entirely. Sure, you can apply the reasonable doubt standard if you like, but that's a legal term. Applying reasonable doubt to science would have killed Quantum Mechanics, among other things. It's a terminology/responsibility thing. When someone says they can hear a 30KHz tone, it's not really anybody else's job to prove they can't. It's THEIR job to prove they can. And that's easily doable, assuming they really can. -- CatBus CatBus's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7461 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=61877 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] The Blind Testing Controversy
GuyDebord;410979 Wrote: Clearly what matters to you and other posters here is NOT the feeling of music! Listening to music is by all means a SUBJECTIVE action, there is nothing scientific about it unless you dont care about music and just sound! this forum is populated by sound geeks. You guys arent sensible enough to feel shivers thats why you resort to (pseudo) science. Listening to music involves all the senses, sight, touch, smell... you guys just dont get it... continue convincing yourselves of perfectly reproduced SOUND! 10 points for the definitive comment. People who work in IT, software, some engineering, etc., seem to make up a disproportionally large percentage of the participants in these forums. People of this ilk see EVERYTHING as black and white. No shades of gray. When things are gray, they nonetheless use their black and white approach, it's their orientation and it's comfortable. Gray is uncomfortable. To them, a software program, an oscilliscope, a calculation, specs, are all much more appropriate ways to assess sound than using ears, or feelings and emotions. They can deal with measurements, but not with impressions. I know too many people like this, they abound in Silicon Valley. They are how they are, it is appropriate for the work they do, it just doesn't translate well to the outside gray world. But they keep at it. It makes for boring conversations like this (that is, with those who can make conversation) -- Goodsounds Goodsounds's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=14201 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=61877 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] The Blind Testing Controversy
GuyDebord;410979 Wrote: Listening to music involves all the senses, sight, touch, smell... you guys just dont get it... continue convincing yourselves of perfectly reproduced SOUND! You're erecting a straw-objectivist and then beating him over the head. The fact is that it seems to be -subjectivists- that have the most trouble relaxing and enjoying music. Objectivists have, if they choose, a perfectly well-defined set of criteria for choosing and comparing components. Moreover they understand that all that really matters are speakers and music - most of the rest is irrelevant. Subjectivists, on the other hand, have to fret over cables, power cords, magic pebbles... the result is inferior sound, an empty wallet and very little time spent actually enjoying music. I haven't changed anything in my system in quite a while, and (unless there's a practical reason to do so) I don't see why I would want to. I'm very satisfied with the sound, and if I wanted to improve it I would focus on things that actually make a difference - like rearranging the furniture or moving the speakers - rather than $1,000 wires. cliveb;410994 Wrote: CatBus made the same comment: that Objectivists are not making such an accusation. I've therefore clearly misinterpreted the things I've seen written on these and other forums for many years now. Countless times I've seen phrases like you're deluding yourself and you're imagining it. Reading between the lines, these phrases seem to be implying that this delusion/imagination implies some level of gullibility. -Everyone- hears things that aren't really there - that's human nature. The gullibility comes from believing that your subjective impressions correspond to any kind of real change in the sound. There's a big difference between that and what you said. -- opaqueice opaqueice's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4234 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=61877 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] The Blind Testing Controversy
CatBus;411101 Wrote: There is a pigeon in my back yard. I can prove that, even to hardcore pigeon deniers. However, I cannot convince hardcore pigeon believers that there ISN'T a pigeon in my yard. An image of a pigeon in your back yard would be evidence. A dead pigeon you collected in your back yard would be evidence. Even pigeon droppings from your back yard would be evidence. We don't even see the equivalent of pigeon drooppings in most audio discussions. Many subjectivists take hearing a difference in an uncontrolled situation to be proof. I think many objectivists would regard hearing a difference as generating a hypothesis that needs to be tested before it is accepted. CatBus;411101 Wrote: Applying reasonable doubt to science would have killed Quantum Mechanics, among other things. In fact science produced the theory of Quantum Mechanics in response to experiments and theoretical issues. So what great advances has subjectivist thinking produced? CatBus;411101 Wrote: It's a terminology/responsibility thing. When someone says they can hear a 30KHz tone, it's not really anybody else's job to prove they can't. It's THEIR job to prove they can. And that's easily doable, assuming they really can. You claim to hear a difference that seems improbable, you provide some convincing evidence. That is the essential problem with the subjectivist approach. It doesn't produce valid experiments and quantitative measurements to validate what subjectivists hear. Bill -- Listener Listener's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2508 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=61877 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Smart Gain
Nonreality;410905 Wrote: Yes exactly if you also have replay gain tags on a track that has already been volume leveled by mp3tag. In that case I would not use any replay gain in SC. Thanks for the information. -- chitunes chitunes's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=29148 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=60836 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Linn Klimax DS - Network Music Player
cliveb;410715 Wrote: I think you may have misunderstood the end goal of ABX testing in audio. The endpoint is NOT does A sound better than B. It's much simpler: does A sound DIFFERENT than B. No preference judgements are called for: simply the detection (or otherwise) of an audible difference. That strikes me as eminently measurable and open to statistical analysis. I think you meant - does A sound DIFFERENT than B because it is producing an audibly different pattern of sound waves. That question can only be answered with either blind testing or measurements plus some knowledge (gained via blind testing, of course) of perceptual thresholds. But I don't agree that that is the -only- question one might want to answer. If I had to choose between two components, I would greatly prefer a blind comparison to a sighted one, because I think it's the best way to determine which sounds better and which I would be more satisfied with in the long run (or whether it matters at all). Sometimes such tests are possible in audio show rooms, and I find it's -very- instructive to try. One rapidly starts to understand which aspects are important, and how easy it is to be absolutely confident you hear a difference - and then be utterly wrong. And on that topic, I would vastly prefer if audio reviewers would do their analyses blind - I find audio reviews nearly useless as they are. -- opaqueice opaqueice's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4234 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=38815 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Smart Gain
chitunes;411152 Wrote: Thanks for the information. Glad to help. You might be able to undo the mp3tag leveling and switch to using tags. Then a program like Mediamonkey could apply leveling on the fly to your portable and not have to have all your files altered. Something to think about anyway. -- Nonreality -IF THE RULE YOU FOLLOWED BROUGHT YOU TO THIS, OF WHAT USE IS THE RULE.- HTTP://www.last.fm/user/nonreality Nonreality's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=15723 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=60836 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] The Blind Testing Controversy
opaqueice;43 Wrote: But the part of my comment that seems to have irritated you wasn't directed at listeners - it was directed at audio engineers, the people that design and build audio gear and make recordings, and have to worry about this stuff professionally. They shouldn't listen to audiophiles any more than MDs should listen to witch-doctors (which means very rarely there might be something with a kernel of truth, but the vast majority is nonsense). I know by fact that most of the components I own, once designed were voiced by ear(s) including my expensive cables. Of course some companies (i.e. YG acoustics) believe in pure measurements, the result sound is most of the time: analytical, clinical, un-organic and lifeless. Something a sound geek will love. So while aiming your comments at designer professionals you must admit that subjectivity is always at the end game -- GuyDebord '*LAST.FM*' (http://www.last.fm/user/bloodyrosa) - SPEAKERS: Kharma CRM 3.2FE - v/d Hul Inspiration - PRE: Lyngdorf DPA-1 - Kharma Grand Reference XLR's - AMP: Halcro MC20 - ANALOGUE: Clearaudio Ambient CMB, Satisfy Carbon Lyra Helikon SL, ASR Basis Exclusive phono pre - Acoustic Zen Silver Reference II XLRs - DIGITAL: Slim Devices Transporter - Siltech Golden Ridge AES/EBU - AC: PS Audio Power Plant Premier, PS Audio Statement(PPP), ASR Magic Cord(ASR), Siltech SPX30 MKII's for the Lyngdorf, Halcro Transporter GuyDebord's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=14587 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=61877 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] A/B SB3 vs Transporter
Eric Carroll;410852 Wrote: Priceless reply. But I don't think anyone answered your actual question. You should expect XLR outputs to be +6 dB above RCA connections. In addition, but more variably, -nominal- line level between RCA (consumer) and XLR balanced (professional) can vary up to 12-14 dB. Maximum levels differ as well. Its variable because not all vendors implement it the same way, unfortunately. Further insight for SB3/Tp is available on the 'ConnectToPowerAmp' (http://wiki.slimdevices.com/index.php/ConnectToPowerAmp) wiki page. So level matching with a sound meter as you have done is critical for testing, and you should not expect equal settings on the two devices for different connection types. I appreciate your reply to the initial question. The sound level meter is definitely the way to go opaqueice;410853 Wrote: You might find this thread interesting: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=35068 That thread says a lot. I, for one, am not in the least bit surprised by the findings. -- El Duderino El Duderino's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=8171 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=61686 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] The Blind Testing Controversy
GuyDebord;411196 Wrote: I know by fact that most of the components I own, once designed were voiced by ear(s) including my expensive cables. Of course some companies (i.e. YG acoustics) believe in pure measurements, the result sound is most of the time: analytical, clinical, un-organic and lifeless. Something a sound geek will love. So while aiming your comments at designer professionals you must admit that subjectivity is always at the end game So, basically, all you're saying is that you like inaccurate sound that may not represent the source material. That's fine and totally acceptable. I like some warmth to my music as well. Similarly, others appreciate what you call analytical or accurate, uncolored sound. That, too, is fine. But, you do need to get off this anti-sound geek high horse. It sounds immature at best. I work with ears on a daily basis. Your ears and the signals interpreted by your brain as sound are largely the same as the majority of the healthy-hearing population. There is no argument in this--it's human physiology and not subject to your emotions. Any downstream interpretation of this sound as something different or, as you put it, organic is through the introduction of bias. Again, I understand where you're coming from regarding listening to, interpreting and enjoying music but lose the pretentiousness... -- El Duderino El Duderino's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=8171 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=61877 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] The Blind Testing Controversy
darrenyeats;410811 Wrote: 1. The word blind in blind testing doesn't refer to having no sense of sight. It's about not knowing the identity of the candidate at hand. Hence you can (and reviewers DO*) have blind tests on televisions. The frame of the television is covered so the tester doesn't know which unit is being looked at. 2. Clive's analogy is pretty good actually. You see a big shiny box with a Linn badge on it and admittedly it looks great. You see a dinky cheap looking box with a Squeezebox badge on it and it looks not so great! It changes the listening experience. Excellent analogy. Darren PS: *Remember what I said about the rest of the world? I know what a DBT is. I just think that most of them are done improperly. And you missed my point completely and proved it at the same time. Again the point is that the Eyes, Ears, and Brain can't be trusted except in extreme cases where the components being tested shouldn't even be in the same room with each other IE an audiophile system vs a Sears Rack system. When the Eyes are allowed to be involved, misconceptions, prejudices, prior opinions, and assumptions run rampant (just like the meal analogy). Which is why test equipment must be involved when components reach a certain level to which the Ears alone can no longer be trusted. There are not very many people in the world that can memorize track A played on equipment X and directly compare it with track A played afterwards on equipment Y. It is almost impossible to do when the equipment gets to a level in quality that requires DBT in the first place! This is one of the reasons that the review guys keep equipment for so long. The ears and brain get used to listening to a setup and have to be moved away from that with hours of listening to another setup or the review will end up being really about the new equipment vs the guys reference setup. Which is another reason I don't like equipment reviews because they can only be judged against the guys reference system or the best system he has had the opportunity to listen to. Which is why I ask people to just go listen to a pair of Thiel or Vandersteen speakers before they spend $15 to $20K on a pair of speakers. Don't even go with the idea you might buy them, just listen to them before buying anything. If a DBT is to even have a chance, the listener should have no idea when or what is being listened to. They should pick what sounds best to them then find out what it was that they preferred later! -- iPhone *iPhone* Media Room: Transporter, VTL TL-6.5 Signature Pre-Amp, Ayre MX-R Mono's, Vandersteen Quatro, VeraStarr 6.4SE 6-channel Amp, VCC-5 Reference Center, four VSM-1 Signatures, Runco RS 900 CineWide AutoScope 2.35:1 Living Room: Duet, ADCOM GTP-870HD, Cinepro 3K6SE III Gold, Vandersteen Model 3A Signature, Two 2Wq subs, VCC-2, Two VSM-1 Kitchen: Squeezebox BOOM Bedroom: SB3, GFR-700HD, Thiel 2.3, Second Boom Home Office: SB3, NAD C370, two VSM-1 Home Gym: SB3, Parasound Vamp v.3, Thiel PowerPoint 1.2 House Portable: SB3, Audioengine A5 Thunderbird: Duet, Mac Mini Expedition: SB3, ToughBook iPhone's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=13622 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=61877 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] The Blind Testing Controversy
Listener;411146 Wrote: An image of a pigeon in your back yard would be evidence. A dead pigeon you collected in your back yard would be evidence. Even pigeon droppings from your back yard would be evidence. Exactly my point. Evidence that proves the existence of the pigeon is easy. You didn't list any examples that would prove the lack of a pigeon to someone who was sure there was one hiding back there somewhere. We don't even see the equivalent of pigeon drooppings in most audio discussions. Again, exactly my point. It's fairly easy to prove that you CAN hear a difference, but people who claim to hear a difference choose not to, throwing the responsibility on others to prove they can't--which as we both demonstrated above, is a much harder task. In fact science produced the theory of Quantum Mechanics in response to experiments and theoretical issues. So what great advances has subjectivist thinking produced? Bad example, you're right. String theory. Many Freudian/Jungian theories. Both at least started out as making up stuff that works out the way we like, and can't be tested. I understand string theory is on the cusp of being testable so I may retract that half. Admittedly I'm no big fan of either. But in their favor, they sure inspired some good science by others, even if they were suspect in their own right. Honestly I think that's the best thing about subjectivists in my opinion. They ask the crazy off-the-wall questions that get things moving in a whole new direction. When it comes to providing answers, they're not so good, unfortunately. -- CatBus CatBus's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7461 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=61877 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Having trouble using Transporter as standalone DAC with my PS3
When I connect the optical out to the Transporter, which is hooked up to a DAC via Toslink as well, I get nothing. When I hook the PS3 directly to the DAC, it works fine. Could this be a copy protection issue? -- rdb001 rdb001's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=13097 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=46429 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/mailman/listinfo/audiophiles
