Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] HIGHRESAUDIO to stop offering MQA

2017-06-26 Thread Golden Earring

drmatt wrote: 
> No, but I have plenty of evidence that corporations won't touch open
> source with a bargepole.
> 

Hi guys!

It's all got a bit heated on this thread & I don't want to get involved
in the vitriolic stuff.

Nevertheless, it seems to me that Logitech's decision to ditch our
beloved system was based at least in part on its inability to recover
the ongoing development & maintenance costs of the open source
"Logitech" (read "Slim Devices"!) Media Server software...

Dave :)



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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] HIGHRESAUDIO to stop offering MQA

2017-06-26 Thread arnyk

drmatt wrote: 
> I've usually observed that markets where there is a defacto generic
> product tend towards less variety, so I don't know what's irrational
> about that. Hipster kickstarters aside, most consumers wouldn't buy
> anything but the defacto "good enough", and those that do explore
> further would only really buy the one with the Apple logo..

I guess you are unaware of the fact that Apple is a minority provider in
most if not all of the markets it serves, including cell phones. 

How long has it been since Apple  released a major new product that
commands a majority of its market?



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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] HIGHRESAUDIO to stop offering MQA

2017-06-26 Thread arnyk

drmatt wrote: 
> No, but I have plenty of evidence that corporations won't touch open
> source with a bargepole.
> 

Many of us already have evidence in their possession  that the majority
of businesses and individuals that use cell phones  already use open
source software. 

Consider that 100s of millions of people and 10s of millions of
businesses use Android, which is software  that will happily print out a
little statement saying  that it is based on open source Linux, if you
ask it nicely.

I call BS on your unfounded and meaningless claim. Again.



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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] HIGHRESAUDIO to stop offering MQA

2017-06-26 Thread Mnyb

pippin wrote: 
> MQA certification primarily means you pay a license fee and then you can
> use the label.

Yes agree , then we migth ask how inportant they think their own spec is
.

drmatt wrote: 
> Indeed. Presumably "mqa certification" just means "thou shalt implement
> a bunch of filters like this; and switch to them according to the
> instructions sent". The idea being, presumably, that mqa certified music
> sources choose a suitable output filter according to the analogue->
> digital filtering types at the other end.
> 
> Of course this is doomed to failure as there are probably tens of
> different ADCs used for any given commercial recording.
> 
> Transcoded from Matt's brain by Tapatalk

Yes the Idea is probably a fail , but given that , wonder if the DAC's
and softwares certified follows spec rigidly.. is there wiggle room in
spec , as long as you paid for the sticker ?? Would be interesting to se
more test of such DAC's .

I've would not be surprised if they are different and further that some
of settings do produce small audible differences . Some filter settings
combined with some DAC and you hifi may produce undesired side effects
.

Due to sighted testing and the intellectual corruption gone several
rounds in the industry , some "voodoo designers" may actually manage to
bodge such a well understood thing as DAC and produce kit that do sound
different , but not for any good reason..
It would be healthy if the magazines that do measurements could point a
finger at clearly broken stuff instead of producing more smoke and
mirrors and FUD usually trying to explain away the strange performance
with some claims of unorthodox design principles and hidden unmeasurable
variables that must exist due the excellent result in sighted testing
;)

Happy to see Archimago do his measurements.

It would however help tremendously if MQA themselfs produced a test
signal suite and publish it officially so that anyone could test
compliance in MQA branded products .




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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] HIGHRESAUDIO to stop offering MQA

2017-06-26 Thread drmatt

arnyk wrote: 
> You have evidence that the FLAC developers refused to sign contracts or
> support their product for a reasonable fee?
> 
> I doubt it.
No, but I have plenty of evidence that corporations won't touch open
source with a bargepole.


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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] HIGHRESAUDIO to stop offering MQA

2017-06-26 Thread drmatt

I doubt it. Markets where there is a defacto generic product tend
towards less variety. Hipster kickstarters aside, most consumers
wouldn't buy anything but the defacto "good enough", and those that do
explore further would only really buy the one with the Apple logo..


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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] HIGHRESAUDIO to stop offering MQA

2017-06-26 Thread arnyk

drmatt wrote: 
> But as you know companies will always prefer to use a format with a
> contract and support rather than one without, where they may find
> themselves with a bunch of support case and no expertise or will to fix
> it.
> 

You have evidence that the FLAC developers refused to sign contracts or
support their product for a reasonable fee?

I doubt it.



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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] HIGHRESAUDIO to stop offering MQA

2017-06-26 Thread arnyk

drmatt wrote: 
> Seriously, why do you have a problem with my nickname? Not only is it
> completely and utterly irrelevant, it's actually not even untrue.. lol
> 

I'm afraid that I'm a prisoner of your earlier obfuscation and
apparently  false claims on that topic.  Given your history related to
that topic, how do we know that you are telling the truth now?

> 
> I'm aware that small high end hifi companies undoubtedly suffer from
> enhanced pressure to turn a profit (they do not have the large company
> buffer and all their jobs are on the line), but I don't believe there is
> more than just a small element within each who might work to
> *deliberately* pull the wool over people's eyes.
> 

Morally, their position seems very weak. Their credibility as a supplier
rests in their credibility and ability to properly create and
characterize what they sell, but if their claims and products are easy
to falsify using generally taught and accepted science, then where does
that put them?


> 
> I can see where you're coming from though. Even if we ignore your
> particular view that everything sounds the same 
> 

You are claiming falsely and libeling me. I've never said and I would
never say that everything sounds the same. 

If there is any question I hereby assert before God and Man on this
twenty-sixth day of June 2017 that some audio gear sounds different and
some does not. 


> 
> it is still obvious to all concerned that you really don't get a lot
> more engineering when you pay a lot more money.
> 

Not infrequently you get less engineering and less competent engineering
for that extra expenditure.

> 
> I have to say my choice of cool looking hifi would be a lot smaller if
> everyone felt like you, however, Mr K, and I'm not sure I want that
> either.
> 

Again you are claiming falsely and irrationally. If people would quit
spending so much time and money on an irrational quest for better
sounding audio gear when none is possible, a greater proportion of the
development and product costs could be spent on industrial design
(appearance).



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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] HIGHRESAUDIO to stop offering MQA

2017-06-26 Thread drmatt

arnyk wrote: 
> Given "Dr Matt" (a fraudulent nickname)

Seriously, why do you have a problem with my nickname? Not only is it
completely and utterly irrelevant, it's actually not even untrue.. lol

I'm aware that small high end hifi companies undoubtedly suffer from
enhanced pressure to turn a profit (they do not have the large company
buffer and all their jobs are on the line), but I don't believe there is
more than just a small element within each who might work to
*deliberately* pull the wool over people's eyes.

I can see where you're coming from though. Even if we ignore your
particular view that everything sounds the same it is still obvious to
all concerned that you really don't get a lot more engineering when you
pay a lot more money. I have to say my choice of cool looking hifi would
be a lot smaller if everyone felt like you, however, Mr K, and I'm not
sure I want that either.



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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] HIGHRESAUDIO to stop offering MQA

2017-06-26 Thread drmatt

But as you know companies will always prefer to use a format with a
contract and support rather than one without, where they may find
themselves with a bunch of support case and no expertise or will to fix
it.


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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] HIGHRESAUDIO to stop offering MQA

2017-06-26 Thread arnyk

Wombat wrote: 
> For Meridian it may be the needed follow-up for MLP licensing. They had
> to develop something new licensible so they create some magic around it
> to get the income they are used to.

AFAIK MLP was not appreciably better than FLAC which was as I recall in
the public domain.  It may have been attractive to media producers for
exactly that reason, but technically it seems to have been a matter of
charging for something that performed technically no better than what
knowledgeable people were already using for free.



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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] HIGHRESAUDIO to stop offering MQA

2017-06-26 Thread Wombat

For Meridian it may be the needed follow-up for MLP licensing. They had
to develop something new licensible so they create some magic around it
to get the income they are used to.



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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] HIGHRESAUDIO to stop offering MQA

2017-06-26 Thread arnyk

drmatt wrote: 
> I doubt it. 2008 was a long time ago, and nothing going on there yet...
> 
> And really? Scamming the public? You really think they are sitting there
> trying to think of something that they can sell knowing full well it
> does nothing and cackling into their capes as they swoosh off to the
> bank?
> 
> 

Given "Dr Matt" (a fraudulent nickname)  that I know that the truth
about so-called high rez audio gores one or more of your oxen...  ;-)

A relevant factoid is that one or more AES conference papers leading up
to the announcement of MQA were pretty well hooted off the AES forum web
site.  So they don't have to believe the truth, but they've been
introduced to it up front and personal by peers.  

It is true that denial ain't just a river and Egypt and that denial is
greatly enhanced when somebody else's truth  truth gets in the way of
your making a profit.  

However, take that too far and you're committing legal fraud, plain and
simple. Ignorance does not confer immunity to the law.



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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] HIGHRESAUDIO to stop offering MQA

2017-06-26 Thread cliveb

drmatt wrote: 
> I don't think the word "fraud" should be on anyone's lips. Misguided,
> naive, weak minded, arguable, but let's not overstate things.
I generally follow the principle "do not ascribe to malice that which
can be explained by incompetence".
But frankly I don't think Bob Stuart is incompetent enough to actually
believe this MQA hogwash - he does have a fairly illustrious engineering
background, after all.
So in this case, yes, I really do think what's going on is tantamount to
fraud.



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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] HIGHRESAUDIO to stop offering MQA

2017-06-26 Thread bakker_be

cliveb wrote: 
> After everything I've seen emerge about MQA, it's becoming increasingly
> clear that it is a cynical attempt to extract more cash from punters
> through FUD.
> 
> The people who have built this system almost certainly know full well
> that it's all a bunch of smoke and mirrors.
> And they also know that if you present the right kind of pseudo-science
> to the right kind of audiophile and then get them to do a sighted
> comparison, they will hear an improvement due to their expectations
> based on the hoodwinkery they've been exposed to.
> 
> This is just blatent, shameful scamming of the public. If they were in
> the financial or pharmaceutical industry they'd probably be a in jail by
> now.

Not only is it an effort to extract more money, but it's also IMO yet
another effort at DRM enforcement. Add to this e.g. the trend for
disappearing 3.5mm jacks on smartphones, the current number one playback
device for a whole generation of (admittedly non-audiophile) music
"consumers" ...



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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] HIGHRESAUDIO to stop offering MQA

2017-06-26 Thread drmatt

cliveb wrote: 
> If they were in the financial or pharmaceutical industry they'd probably
> be a in jail by now.

I doubt it. 2008 was a long time ago, and nothing going on there yet...


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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Is 24bit/44.1kHz high resolution or marketing BS?

2017-06-26 Thread arnyk

bdarrenyeats wrote: 
> 
> 
> Also there are historical shenanigans with cheap and/or poor ADCs which
> have caused measurable issues in a great many recordings.
> 

Attempts to measure this or validate it with DBTs have come up empty.

In general, the legacy ADCs were both very good and very expensive. For
example, in the early 70s I worked in grad school with a digital
interface that was used to connect a EIA 680 hybrid computer with an IBM
1130 digital computer. It was typical of the best precision conversion
hardware of the day. At its core it was a 320,000 samples/second 16 bit
ADC/DAC pair, with an analog multiplexer that allowed dividing it among
up to 8 different concurrent channels. It was based on a resistive
ladder, and has +/- 1 LSB precision. It cost a half-million dollars. It
was a catalog, off-the-shelf item. If you could proffer the purchase
order credibly, in due time they delivered.

In about the same time,  I was part of this DBT of a piece of digital
gear http://djcarlst.provide.net/abx_digi.htm.  The critical evaluation
by over 20 experienced audiophiles and some of the best recording
engineers in the city was that there was no audible difference. My
recollection that additional listening tests involving non-musical
signals that generally taxed the capabilities of analog tape also passed
through it blamelessly.  It ran in the low 5-figure range.

Back in the early days of digital audio (pre-CD), there were some
questionable ADCs, perhaps most commonly accused would be the conversion
subsystem of the 3M digital recorder. Read about it here:
http://www.mixonline.com/news/news-products/1978-3m-digital-audio-mastering-system/377974
.  Note that in the day, with all its faults, it was judged by leading
professionals to be superior to 15-30 ips, half track analog recording
on the best tape stock, which was the previous high standard for quality
work. A recording that was mastered on it, "Bop Until You Drop" by Ry
Cooder is often cited as an objectionable recording which analog bigots
blame on the 3M mastering. I have an early CD of this song, and it
stands head and shoulders above most recordings of the day.  Many
consider it to be an exemplary work. In the face of a controversy like
this, resolving it in favor of analog bigotry seems unwise. 

> 
> So I think the argument descends to audibility. Realistically, it can't
> be won with digital perfection.
> 

Mentioning digital perfection seems like an excluded middle argument. 

Perfection is always an impossible goal in the real world, but between
the realistic constraints on recording acoustic events and the
limitations of the human ear, sonically blameless performance involving
digital has been possible for almost half a century, and is currently
available for walking around money. 

For example my M-Audio Microtrack is a stand alone recording system
including balanced mic inputs with phantom power. It is now about 8
years old and in its lossless modes, and is sonically blameless. I think
its performance can be duplicated today with modern hardware for less
than $100. In the day it sold for not much more than twice that. 

I believe that today sonically transparent DAC chips run about $1, and a
USB DAC with sonically blameless performance for line-level outputs  can
be had for under $10.  

Many of the esoteric formats that people buy overprice hardware to play
either have negligible recorded software to play, or any works that are 
available using them can be circumvented by simply buying the same work
from the same source in a mainstream format. 

IOW, people seem to be inventing technically unwarranted recording
formats to sell overpriced DACs.



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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] HIGHRESAUDIO to stop offering MQA

2017-06-26 Thread cliveb

After everything I've seen emerge about MQA, it's becoming increasingly
clear that it is a cynical attempt to extract more cash from punters
through FUD.

The people who have built this system almost certainly know full well
that it's all a bunch of smoke and mirrors.
And they also know that if you present the right kind of pseudo-science
to the right kind of audiophile and then get them to do a sighted
comparison, they will hear an improvement due to their expectations
based on the hoodwinkery they've been exposed to.

This is just blatent, shameful scamming of the public. If they were in
the financial or pharmaceutical industry they'd probably be a in jail by
now.



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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] HIGHRESAUDIO to stop offering MQA

2017-06-26 Thread pippin

MQA certification primarily means you pay a license fee and then you can
use the label.



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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Is 24bit/44.1kHz high resolution or marketing BS?

2017-06-26 Thread darrenyeats

Numerical calculation errors are easily demonstrated as measurable in
the real world e.g. DAC on-board digital filters, SRC software. It's an
absolute myth that these calculations are generally perfect in the real
world (even though they could be, and in particular cases are perfect).

For reference:-
(1) Benchmark are one of the "good guys" and yet:
https://benchmarkmedia.com/blogs/application_notes/40489089-benchmark-dac2-vs-dac1-side-by-side-measurements
"A careful examination of the two curves will also show that the DAC1
has slightly more ripple in the frequency response. However this ripple
is insignificant from an audibility standpoint and it is hard to see
even on this expanded scale. This difference is due to the improved
digital filters in the DAC2." Note the DAC2 still exhibits this, albeit
less.
(2) Comparison of various popular SRC software, some quite poor!:
http://src.infinitewave.ca/

Also there are historical shenanigans with cheap and/or poor ADCs which
have caused measurable issues in a great many recordings.

So I think the argument descends to audibility, it can't realistically
be won at the level of digital theoretical perfection.

Please understand my point: I've no evidence that the above issues are
audible.



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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Is 24bit/44.1kHz high resolution or marketing BS?

2017-06-26 Thread darrenyeats

arnyk wrote: 
> The frequency response you measure is not +/- 0.1 dB. It is +/- zero dB
> or as close to that as your numerical calculations allow.
> 
Numerical calculation errors are easily measurable at 24 bits even for
the good guys (e.g. tiny Benchmark DAC1/DAC2 frequency ripples which BM
themselves acknowledge are artefacts of on-board digital filters, less
in the DAC2). In the real world there is better and worse software, and
some is relatively quite bad, I've no doubt some errors could be
resolvable in 16 bits (120dB with dither). See performance of various
SRC software which you can seach online.

So I'm afraid many times the discussion does descend to audibility
rather than being won at theoretical perfection.



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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] HIGHRESAUDIO to stop offering MQA

2017-06-26 Thread drmatt

Mnyb wrote: 
> It's seems that mqa can be implemented differently ( which is strange
> given what they say they ate doing ...)
> So it can be intresting to see how diffrent DAC's switch filters and
> varies other settings and implement the noise shaping dither etc ?
Indeed. Presumably "mqa certification" just means "thou shalt implement
a bunch of filters like this; and switch to them according to the
instructions sent". The idea being, presumably, that mqa certified music
sources choose a suitable output filter according to the analogue->
digital filtering types at the other end.

Of course this is doomed to failure as there are probably tens of
different ADCs used for any given commercial recording.


Transcoded from Matt's brain by Tapatalk



--
Hardware: 3x Touch, 1x Radio, 2x Receivers, 1 HP Microserver NAS with
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Music: ~1300 CDs, as 450 GB of 16/44k FLACs. No less than 3x 24/44k
albums..

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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] HIGHRESAUDIO to stop offering MQA

2017-06-26 Thread Mnyb

It's seems that mqa can be implemented differently ( which is strange
given what they say they ate doing ...)
So it can be intresting to see how diffrent DAC's switch filters and
varies other settings and implement the noise shaping dither etc ?




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