Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Q:Best BUDGET power or integrated AMP (under$1000)

2008-03-15 Thread Robin Bowes
Pat Farrell wrote:
 pski wrote:
 Too many choices...I'm bewildered at the moment...
 I duck after recommending BAND equipment. Not only do the traditional
 makers (like Crown, etc.) have huge, responsive power supplies, they
 have headroom, rise-time, and output that shames most home amps.
 Additionally, they've been using XLR and signal-through features for
 years...
 
 I've always wondered why the audiophile folks don't pay any attention 
 to the pro-audio world. Like pski says, Crown and others make bullet 
 proof gear with XLR, head room and the ability to handle some dumb 
 roadie shorting the outputs for a second.
 
 Most boutique audiophile gear would just go up in smoke.
 
 But, there is band gear and then there is band gear. A lot of the stuff 
 sold at Guitar Center and Musicians Friend at really unbelievable prices 
 is not aimed at pros, its aimed at wanna-bees with no money.
 
 One warning, a lot of gear aimed at touring pros is the audio equivalent 
 to the Viking restaurant stoves that yuppies put in their houses...
 not really designed for residential use. They tend to be big, heavy, 
 draw a lot of power, give off heat, etc.
 
 No more so than the audiophile big tube or monster mono-blocks, but they 
 are not going to be happy stuck in a closed cabinet.

I'm sure *some* pro-audio gear is superb, but some of it is designed to 
be bullet-proof, rather than entirely accurate. Some of it has stuff 
like cooling fans built-in; that's OK in a bank of amps powering one 
side of a large gig, but not so good for home audio.

R.

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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Q:Best BUDGET power or integrated AMP (under$1000)

2008-03-15 Thread Pat Farrell
Robin Bowes wrote:
 Pat Farrell wrote:
 One warning, a lot of gear aimed at touring pros is the audio equivalent 
 to the Viking restaurant stoves that yuppies put in their houses...
 not really designed for residential use. They tend to be big, heavy, 
 draw a lot of power, give off heat, etc.
 
 I'm sure *some* pro-audio gear is superb, but some of it is designed to 
 be bullet-proof, rather than entirely accurate. Some of it has stuff 
 like cooling fans built-in; that's OK in a bank of amps powering one 
 side of a large gig, but not so good for home audio.

Heavy, noisy, power sucking, big fans, etc.

Just like a Viking stove.

In general, when they are designing amps to drive rock bands in football 
stadiums, the speakers are putting out 120dB or so, which makes cooling 
fans (and their noise) be unimportant.

Actually, cooling fans is what started me into SqueezeBoxen years ago 
(pre-G model 1 version) because I was tempted to build a multi-media PC 
for my main listening room. What I loved then about the SB and 
subsequent models, is that the PC with fans is in the basement next to 
my furnace and A/C. Its a floor and 50 feet away from my stereo.

And the stuff they sell to wanna-bee rock bands is a separate discussion 
completely


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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Q:Best BUDGET power or integrated AMP (under$1000)

2008-03-15 Thread pski

Robin Bowes;280067 Wrote: 
 
 I'm sure *some* pro-audio gear is superb, but some of it is designed to
 
 be bullet-proof, rather than entirely accurate. Some of it has stuff 
 like cooling fans built-in; that's OK in a bank of amps powering one 
 side of a large gig, but not so good for home audio.
 
 R.

I think if you look at the specifications of the pro-audio equipment,
you would be surprised with respect to your entirely accurate comment.
Most of the specs are as good (or better) than the above-normal
solid-state amps. Who's specs are more true? 

After all, if the amp is playing at crazy power levels (especially
compared to the usual home level of less than 50 Wpc continuous,) it
HAS to be accurate. (For a fact, a home system running at 50Wpc
continuous likely involves some deaf people.)

Add to that: these amps are designed to disperse heat and the fans are
usually controlled by sophisticated on-board controls. When they are
running at home levels, they are not likely to be noisy...

pski


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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Q:Best BUDGET power or integrated AMP (under$1000)

2008-03-14 Thread pski

mmg_fan;171769 Wrote: 
 Hi In a quandary oover what would be a good power upgrade for my
 current, very basic setup. An old NAD 740 receiver with pre-outs and
 some Magnapan MMG's.
 
 My next step I think is to upgrade the power suplly...I'm thinking a
 power amp with at least 100w/ch and preferably 200w.
 
 
 I'm consiidering used, of course given my budget.
 
 Came across a Rotel rb991 with a 1 year warranty remaining but the
 asking price of $900 is way too high IMHO. I may make a much lower
 offer since it is a great amp.
 Other makes I'm considering include Musical Fidelity (though would have
 to consider used in that price range), the hybrid Jolidas and even
 little know chinese amps like the dussan.
 
 Too many choices...I'm bewildered at the moment...

I duck after recommending BAND equipment. Not only do the traditional
makers (like Crown, etc.) have huge, responsive power supplies, they
have headroom, rise-time, and output that shames most home amps.
Additionally, they've been using XLR and signal-through features for
years...

Look for something rated 20-20K, even if you're looking and home
equipment... amps rated at 1k are not bad but are not technically as
effective.


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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Q:Best BUDGET power or integrated AMP (under$1000)

2008-03-14 Thread Pat Farrell
pski wrote:
 Too many choices...I'm bewildered at the moment...
 
 I duck after recommending BAND equipment. Not only do the traditional
 makers (like Crown, etc.) have huge, responsive power supplies, they
 have headroom, rise-time, and output that shames most home amps.
 Additionally, they've been using XLR and signal-through features for
 years...

I've always wondered why the audiophile folks don't pay any attention 
to the pro-audio world. Like pski says, Crown and others make bullet 
proof gear with XLR, head room and the ability to handle some dumb 
roadie shorting the outputs for a second.

Most boutique audiophile gear would just go up in smoke.

But, there is band gear and then there is band gear. A lot of the stuff 
sold at Guitar Center and Musicians Friend at really unbelievable prices 
is not aimed at pros, its aimed at wanna-bees with no money.

One warning, a lot of gear aimed at touring pros is the audio equivalent 
to the Viking restaurant stoves that yuppies put in their houses...
not really designed for residential use. They tend to be big, heavy, 
draw a lot of power, give off heat, etc.

No more so than the audiophile big tube or monster mono-blocks, but they 
are not going to be happy stuck in a closed cabinet.

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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Q:Best BUDGET power or integrated AMP (under$1000)

2008-03-04 Thread opaqueice

improvisato;274926 Wrote: 
 
 That said, I'm sure during my audition with the 352, there was some
 perceived value when jumping from the 50watt receiver to the 352.  I
 -wanted- to hear the difference.  And I did.  The 352 offered a much
 deeper, more well-rounded sound over the 50watt.
 

Well, that's all that matters - this is about your enjoyment and your
hearing.

Congrats on making a choice you'll be happy with!


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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Q:Best BUDGET power or integrated AMP (under$1000)

2008-03-04 Thread improvisato

OK.  Kind of confused.

It seems like NAD has taken the product page for the C352 amp off their
website.  Here's the link I had bookmarked:
http://nadelectronics.com/products/hifi-amplifiers/C352-Stereo-Integrated-Amplifier

In its place is what appears to be a new integrated amp: the C355BEE. 
http://nadelectronics.com/products/hifi_amplifiers/C355BEE-Stereo-Integrated-Amplifier/


Based on my read of the product overview, it sounds like the C355BEE is
the latest rendition of the 352.  During a recent product audition, my
sales rep verified that the 352 was not going to be replaced anytime
soon.  It sounds like I was almost duped?


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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Q:Best BUDGET power or integrated AMP (under$1000)

2008-03-03 Thread SoftwireEngineer

I suggest a Panasonic xr55, 57 or xr700. You can dualamp, triamp these
in stereo mode. Magnepans have stable impedence so should be ok with
the Panny. A Squeezebox paired with the Panny using a Glass toslink,
will give you the most transparent sound.
(the Primare suggested here would be the other end, full-bodied/smooth
but really not neutral or transparent)


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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Q:Best BUDGET power or integrated AMP (under$1000)

2008-03-03 Thread eiret

SoftwireEngineer;274672 Wrote: 
 I suggest a Panasonic xr55, 57 or xr700. You can dualamp, triamp these
 in stereo mode. Magnepans have stable impedence so should be ok with
 the Panny. A Squeezebox paired with the Panny using a Glass toslink,
 will give you the most transparent sound.
 (the Primare suggested here would be the other end, full-bodied/smooth
 but really not neutral or transparent)

Quad 12L Active
http://www.quad-hifi.co.uk/model.php?sector_id=2range_id=5model_id=23
Quad amplifier and the optioon of xlr input. I use only Squeezebox-rca
in(cheap) Play jazz very good, acoutsic,blues,ordinary rock good. Eva
Cassidy-Imagine-10.Danny Boy very good.

Heavy Metal and Classic not that good. 
$1500 in Sweeden, but in USA or Great Britain +- $1000
Ok speakers, but you need Transporter, Dac1, Quad CDP etc to get the
best of them. Then, the system will be expensive.


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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Q:Best BUDGET power or integrated AMP (under$1000)

2008-03-03 Thread eiret

Software Engineer,

I quoted you by an accident.


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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Q:Best BUDGET power or integrated AMP (under$1000)

2008-03-03 Thread improvisato

opaqueice;274647 Wrote: 
 As you know, there is another school which says the perceived
 differences are usually due to expectation and/or volume mismatches.  
 
 That school has lots of evidentiary support, like that fact that under
 careful controls no one seems to be able to distinguish between even
 supposedly very different amps (tube versus solid state, for example).


Good point, opaqueice.  Like doing a blind taste test of wine, many
casual drinkers 'prefer' a less expensive wine over a fine reserve. 
But, if you show that same drinker the actual prices, he'll always
'prefer' the fine wine.  I imagine there's some of that going on with
amplifiers.  Although, you'd be hard pressed to convince me that music
purists (or even casual listeners) would prefer a solid state over a
tube amp in a blind comparison.  

That said, I'm sure during my audition with the 352, there was some
perceived value when jumping from the 50watt receiver to the 352.  I
-wanted- to hear the difference.  And I did.  The 352 offered a much
deeper, more well-rounded sound over the 50watt.  I was careful to
volume adjust to eliminate any bias based solely on loudness.  

I think I'm just about convinced.  I'm a little concerned about two
things: First, I'm thinking about buying the store demo.  It looked and
sounded fine, but I'm still a little concerned.  Second, price.  The
demo is on sale for $520 USD, compared to NIB for $600.  Do those
prices sound about right for a 352?


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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Q:Best BUDGET power or integrated AMP (under$1000)

2008-03-02 Thread improvisato

AJones;273302 Wrote: 
 An idea in another direction. Since your budget is tight you may
 consider looking at used studio amps. Most studios these days have
 older high end amps they do not use since the trend for studios is to
 have the amp integrated into the speaker. Though studio amps maybe a
 bit under powered if your speakers are not efficient.

I haven't had much luck finding a used studio amp yet, but I'm going to
keep looking.  Thanks for the tip, AJones.

I did, however, have a chance to audition the NAD 352 with my speakers.
Doing a blind test between my 50watt Denon 275 and the 80watt NAD 352
was certainly reveaving.  I think that the NAD 372 is going to be a bit
overkill for my setup and room dimensions, but I was very impressed with
the sound of the NADs.  I'd be interested in any other SB owners with
positive or negative experiences with the 352.


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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Q:Best BUDGET power or integrated AMP (under$1000)

2008-03-02 Thread slimkid

improvisato;274627 Wrote: 
 I haven't had much luck finding a used studio amp yet, but I'm going to
 keep looking.  Thanks for the tip, AJones.
 
 I did, however, have a chance to audition the NAD 352 with my speakers.
 Doing a blind test between my 50watt Denon 275 and the 80watt NAD 352
 was certainly reveaving.  I think that the NAD 372 is going to be a bit
 overkill for my setup and room dimensions, but I was very impressed with
 the sound of the NADs.  I'd be interested in any other SB owners with
 positive or negative experiences with the 352.

I have 352 running a set of Magnepans (86 Db sensitivity, 4 Ohms)
without any trouble. It's good work horse, lots of current, NAD is
pretty conservative with their ratings. I seldom go over 9:30 on the
volume knob. Decent sound too.

I'm not going to state that all amps sound the same, but I have
compared it to 372 and the only difference was that I achieved desired
volume level earlier (8:30), which is not good actually, since there's
less granularity in selecting the volume level within optimal range.
372 can  be bridged into 250W mono if that's what one needs.

Both 352 and 372 have lots of inputs including tape in/out, preamp out
and main amp in separated. Additional AC out, controlled by the main
switch.

352 has 2 good features, tone control with tone control defeat (bypass
that is) and anti clipping circuitry.

The only thing that I don't like about 352 is a fact that volume knob
has hardly visible marker, so it's hard to tell where it is (it's motor
driven by the remote).

And, fringe benefit, 352 comes with very good remote which is way
better than the original one that comes with the SB. So, when used with
the SB, it reacts faster, more reliably and has plenty of buttons (meant
to control CD player and tuner) to re-program.

As always, trust your ears, but 352 is an excellent product for the
money.

K


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The sound stage will open up, bass will tighten and the imaging will
improve. DVD performance will also increase substantially.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7iAj2aPdQnk or 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VvMNuuFSvN0
or
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BDRhRv4q_SI

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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Q:Best BUDGET power or integrated AMP (under$1000)

2008-03-02 Thread opaqueice

Pat Farrell;274637 Wrote: 
 
 There is a school of thought that says that the first watt or five is 
 the important part, as that is where the subtle music is. The extra 
 watts are important for slam, bass, etc. (assuming you are not
 listening 
 to CD cursed by the Loudness Wars.)
 

As you know, there is another school which says the perceived
differences are usually due to expectation and/or volume mismatches.  

That school has lots of evidentiary support, like that fact that under
careful controls no one seems to be able to distinguish between even
supposedly very different amps (tube versus solid state, for example).


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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Q:Best BUDGET power or integrated AMP (under$1000)

2008-02-27 Thread AJones

An idea in another direction. Since your budget is tight you may
consider looking at used studio amps. Most studios these days have
older high end amps they do not use since the trend for studios is to
have the amp integrated into the speaker. Though studio amps maybe a
bit under powered if your speakers are not efficient.

We have 3000 USD amps we not know what to do with. We give them to
staff as gifts. We are not the only studio like this.

If your budget really tight find a used Omniphonics Footprint they used
to be a studio standard and not too pricey new even.


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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Q:Best BUDGET power or integrated AMP (under$1000)

2008-02-26 Thread iPhone

improvisato;272394 Wrote: 
 I'm looking to upgrade from my Denon DRA-275R.  Just about anything
 would be an upgrade, but I'd like to stick to around a $700-1000USD
 budget for either an integrated amp or pre-amp/amp setup.  Your
 suggestions are welcome. 

Most of the suggestions so far are fairly nice amps, BUT, looks like
some were not paying any attention to your budget because most are
hundreds to a thousand over your budget. Also beware of the watts game.
Yes watts can be important, but available current is the real key with
SS amps. NAD gives one a good bang for the buck when it comes to SS
integrated amps with a realistic amount of watts with some true current
to back it up. As an example, a 200-Watt Kenwood RCVR with 4 amps of
available current is no match for a 80-watt NAD with 25 amps of
available current. Much less the NAD C370 with 120W continuous into
8-ohm load with IHF dynamic power to 210 Watts into 8-ohm load. I paid
$629 for mine NIB in 2002. They are around used (when you can find
them) from $299 to $450 for a perfect one. If looking for new, try the
150W NAD C372 with its 150 Watts and IHF dynamic power to 220 Watts
into 8-ohm load. Both are well in your price range and IMHO are what
would be called starter HiFi. 

Another huge factor is knowing the efficiency of your DIY Speakers. If
the crossovers are not first order, the DIY should be fairly efficient
but not phase coherent. Additionally if the drivers are all mounted on
the same front speaker face, the speaker will not be time aligned
(which is my biggest problem with DIY speakers). If they are first
order, get an amp with as much current as you can afford with the most
amount of watts.

My NAD drives a pair of Thiel Speakers that I would consider in the
midrange as to efficiency. It does a wonderful job and has plenty of
headroom and bass response for the size room the speakers and equipment
are in.


-- 
iPhone

iPhone

Last.FM http://www.lastfm.com/user/mePhone

Media Room:
Transporter, Vandersteen Quatro Signature, Ayre MX-R Mono Blocks, VTL
TL-6.5 Signature Pre-Amp, VCC-5 Reference Center Channel, four VSM-1
Signatures, Runco 710, RAM Oppo DV970HD, VeraStarr 6.4SE  

Living Room:
Squeezebox 3, Vandersteen Model 3A Signature, Two 2Wq subs, VCC-2, Two
VSM-1, ADCOM GTP-870HD, Cinepro 3K6SE III Gold 

Bedroom:
Squeezebox 3, Thiel 2.3, NAD C370

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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Q:Best BUDGET power or integrated AMP (under$1000)

2008-02-26 Thread improvisato

iPhone;273138 Wrote: 
 Much less the NAD C370 with 120W continuous into 8-ohm load with IHF
 dynamic power to 210 Watts into 8-ohm load. I paid $629 for mine NIB in
 2002. They are around used (when you can find them) from $299 to $450
 for a perfect one. If looking for new, try the 150W NAD C372 with its
 150 Watts and IHF dynamic power to 220 Watts into 8-ohm load. Both are
 well in your price range and IMHO are what would be called starter
 HiFi.

Thanks for your input, iPhone.  I'm considering the C372, although my
local friendly Denon dealer is busy trying to talk me into the AVR-1908
(http://usa.denon.com/ProductDetails/3635.asp).  Whatever I do go (even
if it is a receiver rather than an integrated amp) with will need to
accomodate several sources in addition to the Squeezebox.  A local shop
has a demo of the C372 available for $899USD.  Is that in line with what
you would reasonably expect for a almost-NIB C372?

iPhone;273138 Wrote: 
 
 Another huge factor is knowing the efficiency of your DIY Speakers. If
 the crossovers are not first order, the DIY should be fairly efficient
 but not phase coherent. Additionally if the drivers are all mounted on
 the same front speaker face, the speaker will not be time aligned
 (which is my biggest problem with DIY speakers). If they are first
 order, get an amp with as much current as you can afford with the most
 amount of watts.
 

Afraid I don't know what you mean by first order.  Still learning as I
go.  Can you explain?  Or perhaps direct me to some good online
sources?


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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Q:Best BUDGET power or integrated AMP (under$1000)

2008-02-24 Thread selfdivider

One of my two integrated amps (the other is the Leben CS600) is Plinius
8150. I got it used for $860, pretty much a bargain. Puts out 150w at 8
ohms, 230w at 4 ohms... won't be an issue at all w/ your MMGs. I've
heard both Creek and NAD amps, but I'd have to say the Plinius amps
have more tunefulness  body, not to mention bass slam (if you're
adding a sub to your MMG, this would definitely factor in.) There are
newer incarnations of Plinius - 8200 MKII and 9100/9200, and these can
be found in Audiogon pretty regularly, but the older 8150s don't
surface as much. Many Plinius owners - but not all, of course - think
that the earlier 8150 was perhaps the most musical one out of them,
even though the 8200  9200 are awesome, too. I personally auditioned
8150 next to the 9100, and preferred the 8150 by far (the speakers were
$5K plus Volent monitors and Dali Helikon 400.)

If you can also find a used Primare integrated - go for it. A really
nice, burnished and muscular sound. Good luck!


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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Q:Best BUDGET power or integrated AMP (under$1000)

2008-02-23 Thread improvisato

slimkid;171782 Wrote: 
 
 Why not stay with NAD, it's proven robust. Nad 352 with 80w/ch or Nad
 372 with 120W/ch (both at 8 Ohms ,and that almost doubles at 4 Ohms)
 are within your price range, new or used, or their 'amp only' versions
 - I don't remember model numbers right now.
 
 

Sorry to ressurect this old thread, but I'm looking into the NAD C352
or C372 integrated amps.  I'd be interested in anyone's experience with
either of these.

I'm looking to upgrade from my Denon DRA-275R.  Just about anything
would be an upgrade, but I'd like to stick to around a $700-1000USD
budget for either an integrated amp or pre-amp/amp setup.  Your
suggestions are welcome.

I'll be using the new amp to drive a pair of custom-built 3-ways.  I
don't know too many details about the speakers themselves.  I know they
sound good to my ears- that's what's important.  I'll try to dig up some
more details, to make this post more meaningful.  In the meantime, I'd
love to hear anyone's suggestions re: mid-fi integrated amps like the
C352 and C372.


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improvisato

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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Q:Best BUDGET power or integrated AMP (under$1000)

2008-02-23 Thread GuyDebord

go for the Creek Classic 5350SE, much better than the NAD, good luck


-- 
GuyDebord

Reference3A RoyalMaster monitors biwired with van den Hul Inspiration,
REL Strata5. AMPS: Pathos Classic One MKIII's in mono config. ANALOGUE:
Clearaudio Ambient CMB, Satisfy Carbon  Lyra Helikon SL, ASR MiniBasis
SQ preamp, link: WireWorld SilverEclipse 5.2. DIGITAL: SlimDevices
Transporter, link: AcousticZen Silver Reference2 XLR’s. POWER: Isotek
MiniSub GII, Isotek Elite cables (MiniSub, Rel), Siltech SPX30 MKII
(Transporter), van den Hul Mainstream (Pathos)  van den Hul Mainserver
(ASR).

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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Q:Best BUDGET power or integrated AMP (under$1000)

2008-02-23 Thread slimkid

GuyDebord;272406 Wrote: 
 go for the Creek Classic 5350SE, much better than the NAD, good luck

for more than double the price, it better be.


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slimkid

The sound stage will open up, bass will tighten and the imaging will
improve. DVD performance will also increase substantially.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7iAj2aPdQnk or 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VvMNuuFSvN0

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[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Q:Best BUDGET power or integrated AMP (under$1000)

2007-01-18 Thread mmg_fan

Hi In a quandary oover what would be a good power upgrade for my
current, very basic setup. An old NAD 740 receiver with pre-outs and
some Magnapan MMG's.

My next step I think is to upgrade the power suplly...I'm thinking a
power amp with at least 100w/ch and preferably 200w.


I'm consiidering used, of course given my budget.

Came across a Rotel rb991 with a 1 year warranty remaining but the
asking price of $900 is way too high IMHO. I may make a much lower
offer since it is a great amp.
Other makes I'm considering include Musical Fidelity (though would have
to consider used in that price range), the hybrid Jolidas and even
little know chinese amps like the dussan.

Too many choices...I'm bewildered at the moment...


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mmg_fan

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