[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Audiophile shops
thomsens wrote: Either you aren't actually reading my posts, or you simply can't understand where I'm coming from. Since I read all your posts and would have responded the same way Pat did, I suspect you're not very good at expressing what you mean. I'd have to spend more time correcting your understanding of what I said than replying...so, we'll drop it. You could always spend a little more time on your original posts, rather than wasting our time by giving up halfway through a thread. R. ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Audiophile shops
In the UK I would say that there is a huge amount of snobbery involved, plus a decent helping of ignorance based on iTunes and iPods being the public perception of computer audio. Most audio shops regard computer audio as MP3 quality and I doubt many have sat down and listened to a well structured system based on SB3, Sonos any other lossless capable transport fed into a good DAC. There is also the notion that if it is more conventient, then it can't be as good - the old LP vs CD debates spring to mind here too. The fact is that computer based audio is cheaper to buy and mainly online too, so not interesting to these guys, and also requires skills that they may not have, hence their fear of it. They much prefer the networked solutions from established audio companies, like Linn and Naim who charge vastly inflated prices for standard computer drives and hardware in a nice box. One of the biggest obstacles I can see though is that established experts suddenly become learners again, so it is much easier to dismiss new technology than admit your opinions are no longer pearls before swine. I see mentions of 12,000 tracks and so on, just how many people buying HiFi actually have that number of CDs? Are we assuming that everyone really does benefit from having their library on tap, or perhaps they prefer the physical pleasure of closing the machined from a solid billet of unobtanium lids on their transports as they insert one of their twenty or so CDs of Barbara Streisand? Having said all that, it won't be long before audiophile stores catch on and start selling and recomending audiophile grade hard drives, cat6 cables and feng-shui wooden blocks to go under your keyboard. -- CardinalFang CardinalFang's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=962 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=32232 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Audiophile shops
CardinalFang;175654 Wrote: In the UK I would say that there is a huge amount of snobbery involved, plus a decent helping of ignorance based on iTunes and iPods being the public perception of computer audio. Most audio shops regard computer audio as MP3 quality and I doubt many have sat down and listened to a well structured system based on SB3, Sonos any other lossless capable transport fed into a good DAC. There is also the notion that if it is more conventient, then it can't be as good - the old LP vs CD debates spring to mind here too. The fact is that computer based audio is cheaper to buy and mainly online too, so not interesting to these guys, and also requires skills that they may not have, hence their fear of it. They much prefer the networked solutions from established audio companies, like Linn and Naim who charge vastly inflated prices for standard computer drives and hardware in a nice box. One of the biggest obstacles I can see though is that established experts suddenly become learners again, so it is much easier to dismiss new technology than admit your opinions are no longer pearls before swine. I see mentions of 12,000 tracks and so on, just how many people buying HiFi actually have that number of CDs? Are we assuming that everyone really does benefit from having their library on tap, or perhaps they prefer the physical pleasure of closing the machined from a solid billet of unobtanium lids on their transports as they insert one of their twenty or so CDs of Barbara Streisand? Having said all that, it won't be long before audiophile stores catch on and start selling and recomending audiophile grade hard drives, cat6 cables and feng-shui wooden blocks to go under your keyboard. They guys in the press are often ignorants too. Somehow believing that when the audio travels through computer networks it is bound to be degraded.. (Wheras SPDIF in expenssive cables is quite OK..) If one can't understand what is going on a technical level, then this type of prejudism will abound. -- P Floding P Floding's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2932 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=32232 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Audiophile shops
There are a ton of BM audio stores making a lot of money installing multi-room home theater systems using products like the ReQuest music servers and Crestron system controllers. Computer file formats and such should not be foreign to most of these guys (unless they subcontract that part out)... FWIW, I work with a few high end manufacturer's reps, and when I show them my SB and TP, all of them think it's absolutely fantastic...and it makes them enthusiastic about learning more... -- PhilNYC Sonic Spirits Inc. http://www.sonicspirits.com PhilNYC's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=837 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=32232 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Audiophile shops
As far as I can see, much of audiophilia and the high end stopped being about sound and became primarily concerned with status and snobbery at some point in the last 10 years. The descent of the audio press into techno porn shilling outrageously over-priced gewgaws and mystical claptrap to is a pretty well-discussed concomitant occurrence. This was always around, but judging from the shops in my area, it's gotten a lot worse. As far as the angry responses to this poster, I have this to say: at this point, most people have only the choice between best buy type shops and a high end shops. Since best buy really only does sell poor sounding garbage, I'm not sure what other option someone new to the hobby has other than to try a high end shop. Frankly, the claim that audiophilia and the high end as epitomized by the shops in question is really about sound and perfectionism in any real sense only deserves a derisive snort as a reply. -- totoro squeezebox 3 - mccormack dna .5 - audio physic tempo 4 totoro's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=5935 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=32232 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Audiophile shops
opaqueice;175526 Wrote: Buy cheap wires, and read this (unless you're looking for a new religion, in which case avoid it): http://sonido.uchile.cl/articulos/tenbiggestliesaudio.pdf Thanks, good article that basically confirms to me that when it comes to audio common sense and engineering principles should prevail. A friend who considers himself an audiophile once told me about interconnects that only allow signal to travel in a single direction. I couldn't but LOL. Needless to say, it was a short conversation. -- egd Linux and loving IT! egd's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=3425 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=32232 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Audiophile shops
Robin Bowes;175646 Wrote: thomsens wrote: Either you aren't actually reading my posts, or you simply can't understand where I'm coming from. Since I read all your posts and would have responded the same way Pat did, I suspect you're not very good at expressing what you mean. I'd have to spend more time correcting your understanding of what I said than replying...so, we'll drop it. You could always spend a little more time on your original posts, rather than wasting our time by giving up halfway through a thread. R. I'm actually quite good at expressing what I mean. I was simply ambushed by someone more concerned about definitions of terms than focusing on the primary thrust of the thread. I never wanted to discuss how much a system I'd buy was or what the exact definition of an audiophile is. Nor was I interested in opinions on how bad MP3 sounds to some. All attempts to get back to the subject were hijacked. I tried to address them so we could get back on course, but found it to be a fruitless endeavor. I didn't find a high-end shop that gave encoded music the time of day and was interested in what other's thoughts were. I futher pointed out that all of them were pleasantly surprised by the quality you could achieve from MP3. If you read the rest of the posts, there is plenty of good commentary that doesn't take the time to question me, my knowledge, my budget, whether I read certain magazines, or whether I take hours to craft forum entries so as not to set off people, etc. In fact, they confirmed what I originally believed. There's a fundamental shift in the industry that will probably shake a few things up. -- thomsens thomsens's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=1352 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=32232 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Audiophile shops
thomsens;175516 Wrote: I've been looking for a new high-end 2 channel system into which I will simply plug my SB, then later a Transporter. I have found that the traditional BM audiophile crowd has been somewhat ignorant to encoded music based on experience in several stores. Because I'm realistic, I decided to build a bunch of CDs that are essentially playlists re-expanded to CD from high-quality MP3s ripped via EAC/LAME to use as demos instead of taking original CDs around. I still use MP3 over FLAC for device portability, although FLAC is getting better for that. My thought was that it would most closely mimic what my setup will be by playing this in their high-end CD players as I audition amps and speakers. Without exception when I've explained that I plan to stream music and I break out my CD, the salesperson turns their nose up and act indignant that I would consider doing what I'm saying. Then, without exception again, they play the CD and proceed to comment on how good it sounds. Of course they quickly get their favorite SACD or vinyl to show me that there is more depth, etc. in their source. Most seem to think MP3 or encoded music = iPod...which would be fine if they didn't work in audio for a living?!? And, most of them sell some form of high-end self-contained product which I assume sounds good too. I won't argue their source was better, even though I didn't notice an appreciable difference. But what I don't understand is how they can look the other way on having 12,000 songs at their instant disposal as a trade-off to a nearly non-existent difference in quality. I guess it's a hobby and it's more about the pursuit of perfection than anything based on reality. Or maybe they feel it threatens a revenue stream for source components and cables. It makes me question all of their advice, though. There is no sense in degrading sound willingly unless you have to. SB3 and Transporter works just fine with lossless audio. (Any digital audio is encoded, weather it is compressed or not, BTW.) Did that answer your original question? -- P Floding P Floding's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2932 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=32232 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Audiophile shops
jhm731;175588 Wrote: You and opaqueice need to go down to your local Costco and pick up a $50. DVDP. IMO, the main barrier audiophiles have to the adoption of computer based audio isn't the fear of an unfamiliar technology, it's poor sound quality. I have a year-old Oppo CD/DVD player, which retails for around $200. I also have a Technics CD player from the mid 90's. Neither sounds better than the SB. I haven't bothered to level match them and do a careful comparison, but I suspect neither sounds worse either... -- opaqueice opaqueice's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4234 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=32232 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Audiophile shops
P Floding;175675 Wrote: There is no sense in degrading sound willingly unless you have to. SB3 and Transporter works just fine with lossless audio. (Any digital audio is encoded, weather it is compressed or not, BTW.) Did that answer your original question? Am aware of all points - thanks. I think encoding is more appropriate because all encoded music is actually compressed (the original conversion to CD format throws away info just as MP3 does). My point was more general, the example was MP3, but I'm sure they would have had the same reaction if I had used FLAC and not lost a bit during the conversions. -- thomsens thomsens's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=1352 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=32232 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Audiophile shops
Pat was merely pointing out that you really shouldn't consider mp3 if you want a high-end system. I understand the portability thing, which was why I wrote flac2mp3 [1] so I can have a flac libary and maintain a parallel mp3 library with minimal effort. If you're planning to re-rip to flac then it would make sense to think about a higher-end system. That said, I can here the difference between my SB3 and Transporter on a relatively cheap system - BW DM601s and a Rotel RC-870BX/RB-850 pre/power combination. I've had the speakers for ~18 years, and the Rotel kits is from eBay. I think I've spent £350 max on the whole lot. I guess I'm definitely in the source-first camp (assuming a reasonable quality of amplification/speakers). R. ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Audiophile shops
opaqueice;17 Wrote: It's pretty easy to have the best of both worlds in terms of fidelity and portability. If you rip your CDs to FLAC (or another lossless format), you can very easily convert them to MP3 all in one batch. Then you'll have two sets of files, but the MP3s are much smaller than the FLACs and so the total space required isn't significantly larger (than just FLAC). Now just load the MP3s onto your ipod or whatever, and listen to the FLACs with the SB. Given how cheap disk space is, I don't see any reason to do it any other way. Thats exactly what i did. I point Musicmatch at my MP3 library and use it to down load to my Creative 20G MP3 player. Otherwise i listen to WAV files. -- sfraser sfraser's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2026 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=32232 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Audiophile shops
Robin Bowes;175693 Wrote: Pat was merely pointing out that you really shouldn't consider mp3 if you want a high-end system. I understand the portability thing, which was why I wrote flac2mp3 [1] so I can have a flac libary and maintain a parallel mp3 library with minimal effort. If you're planning to re-rip to flac then it would make sense to think about a higher-end system. That said, I can here the difference between my SB3 and Transporter on a relatively cheap system - BW DM601s and a Rotel RC-870BX/RB-850 pre/power combination. I've had the speakers for ~18 years, and the Rotel kits is from eBay. I think I've spent £350 max on the whole lot. I guess I'm definitely in the source-first camp (assuming a reasonable quality of amplification/speakers). R. Agree on all points. Again - MP3 is not forever for me. But a system is a long time investment. That's why I'd never make a tactical decision based on the fact that I'm using MP3 today. -- thomsens thomsens's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=1352 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=32232 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Audiophile shops
opaqueice;175684 Wrote: I have a year-old Oppo CD/DVD player, which retails for around $200. I also have a Technics CD player from the mid 90's. Neither sounds better than the SB. I haven't bothered to level match them and do a careful comparison, but I suspect neither sounds worse either... The Oppo is an excellent player and an excellent unit to mod. Off the digital outputs, my Pioneer DVDP sounds better than the SB3. It can also output my Classic Records DADs and DVD-As made from 16/44.1 recordings with DVD-Audio Solo at 24/96. -- jhm731 jhm731's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7685 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=32232 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Audiophile shops
CardinalFang;175654 Wrote: and feng-shui wooden blocks to go under your keyboard. I knew there was something missing in my system Anybody know where I can get the audiophile-approved ones? No less than $1000 please. :-P -- nicketynick Wireless SB3, Denon DRA-F101, Mission M31 loudspeakers WinXP SP2 Slimserver, SMC WBR14g router nicketynick's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=1511 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=32232 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Audiophile shops
nicketynick;175779 Wrote: I knew there was something missing in my system Anybody know where I can get the audiophile-approved ones? No less than $1000 please. :-P Just send me a private message, and we'll arrange something.. -- P Floding P Floding's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2932 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=32232 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Audiophile shops
nicketynick;175779 Wrote: I knew there was something missing in my system Anybody know where I can get the audiophile-approved ones? No less than $1000 please. :-P Give me a call. I'll sell you some for a lot more if I can sneak one away from my kids... ;-) -- PhilNYC Sonic Spirits Inc. http://www.sonicspirits.com PhilNYC's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=837 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=32232 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Audiophile shops
jhm731;175588 Wrote: You and opaqueice need to go down to your local Costco and pick up a $50. DVDP. The SB2 and SB3 sound much, much better than a $50 DVD player - and I did a comparison, see http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=19240 Not only that, but it's really apples and oranges. How many $50 DVD players are network-controllable? How many $50 DVD players can store 10 000 CDs? The SB is really a different product. jhm731, did you ever actually own a Squeezebox? Or are you just assuming? Your every single post is negative - why do you hang around here anyway? You must like confrontation, why else would you post at a forum dedicated to a product you hate? The SB3 is obviously not for everybody - too bad it doesn't meet your needs, but no use harping on and on about it. You don't like it, we get it, thanks, go get something that does meet your needs, so long! You must have many hours in the day if you bother wasting time at forums dedicated to products you don't like and don't even own. In fact, judging by your posts, you may possibly be a shill for an SB competitor as your sole goal seems to be spreading FUD about the product. I can't tell which competitor, you seem to give props to all of them. You invariably recommend any product other than one by SD. The SB isn't good enough for you, the Transporter isn't good enough for you, we get it already. Opinion noted, move on. -- Mark Lanctot It's like, you know, a New Age religion, but with better treble response. - Jon Heal Mark Lanctot's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2071 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=32232 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Audiophile shops
Mark Lanctot;175946 Wrote: The SB2 and SB3 sound much, much better than a $50 DVD player I think it depends. Compared to a $150 Pioneer DV-563A, I think the SB2/SB3 sounds significantly better. Compared to a $50 Toshiba 3950, I think the performance is comparable. (above comparisons are of the analog-outs). SB2/SB3 digital-outs are better than both of the above. -- PhilNYC Sonic Spirits Inc. http://www.sonicspirits.com PhilNYC's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=837 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=32232 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Audiophile shops
PhilNYC;175954 Wrote: I think it depends. Compared to a $150 Pioneer DV-563A, I think the SB2/SB3 sounds significantly better. Compared to a $50 Toshiba 3950, I think the performance is comparable. (above comparisons are of the analog-outs). SB2/SB3 digital-outs are better than both of the above. OK. That comparison of mine was using digital out. And I should have said IMO. -- Mark Lanctot It's like, you know, a New Age religion, but with better treble response. - Jon Heal Mark Lanctot's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2071 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=32232 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Audiophile shops
Btw - I forgot to mention that my Toshiba 3950 broke after 5 months...(the Pioneer is still going strong after 2 years of casual use)... -- PhilNYC Sonic Spirits Inc. http://www.sonicspirits.com PhilNYC's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=837 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=32232 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Audiophile shops
Mark- For sound quality, try a Toshiba SD-3990. I have an SB3 with a linear psu. I haven't heard the Transporter. I don't work for a SB competitor. Have a nice day.;-) -- jhm731 jhm731's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7685 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=32232 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Audiophile shops
jhm731;175963 Wrote: Mark- For sound quality, try a Toshiba SD-3990. I have an SB3 with a linear psu. I haven't heard the Transporter. I don't work for a SB competitor. Have a nice day.;-) OK. I can accept that. As long as you own or have at least tried the product, you are entitled to your opinion. -- Mark Lanctot It's like, you know, a New Age religion, but with better treble response. - Jon Heal Mark Lanctot's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2071 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=32232 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Audiophile shops
thomsens;175516 Wrote: I guess it's a hobby and it's more about the pursuit of perfection than anything based on reality. Or maybe they feel it threatens a revenue stream for source components and cables. It makes me question all of their advice, though. You *should* question it. Audiophiles are extraordinarily unreliable - just look at the total divergence of opinions on this and other fora. We can't possibly all be right, which means almost all of us are wrong... salespeople especially so - they have a vested interest in convincing you to buy expensive products, and that's certain to influence what they tell you. My advice - find some speakers you love, and then buy the cheapest amplifier you can find that's powerful enough to drive them. Buy cheap wires, and read this (unless you're looking for a new religion, in which case avoid it): http://sonido.uchile.cl/articulos/tenbiggestliesaudio.pdf -- opaqueice opaqueice's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4234 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=32232 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Audiophile shops
Was there a question in there somewhere? -- JJZolx Jim JJZolx's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=32232 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Audiophile shops
We've all experienced the snooty boutique attitude, and not necessarily with audiophilia. Go to a froo-froo restaurant and order some cheap Spanish red to go with your pricey oyster plate. The disdain may be palpable--but does your dinner choice then taste less good to you? Go to a car lot and tell them you want something that has wheels and gets over 40MPG. Oh, goodness--but don't you want a V8 engine, leather seats, and heated cupholders? In short, ignore them. If you know what you want, be very clear that this part of your plan is not negotiable. If they don't respect that, walk. I've found that some snooty boutique folk CAN actually know quite a lot about their subject matter, and can be very helpful in areas where you need their opinions. All you need to do is fence off those areas where their opinions are welcome. But if you find their opinions suspect, walk. No judge is as good as your own ears. You can't taste a meal at a restaurant before you order it, so the recommendations of others have a bit more weight there. Many audiophile shops let you schedule listening tests, though. Some even help you do single-blind tests, which is even better. I've not found a place that really even understands the concept of double-blind though. -- CatBus CatBus's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7461 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=32232 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Audiophile shops
JJZolx;175530 Wrote: Was there a question in there somewhere? Thought it was clear...why don't BM audio shops get what's currently happening? -- thomsens thomsens's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=1352 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=32232 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Audiophile shops
thomsens;175545 Wrote: Thought it was clear...why don't BM audio shops get what's currently happening? Among their customer base, I'd venture that it's still pretty rare. They've probably dealt with their share of guys off the street wanting to put together systems to play 128kbps mp3s, same as they've dealt with folks who want to put together entire systems for $300. If you frequent some of the more popular audiophile forums, you'll be struck by how many guys each day are saying OK, I'm ready to do the computer based audio thing. Where do I start?. The funny thing is, I'll bet more than 1/2 of _those_ people couldn't care less about the convenience of computer based playback, nor do they have any desire to stream audio to a remote player - they're looking for better fidelity (go figure). -- JJZolx Jim JJZolx's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=32232 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Audiophile shops
Pat Farrell;175541 Wrote: thomsens wrote: I've been looking for a new high-end 2 channel system into which I will simply plug my SB, then later a Transporter. I won't argue their source was better, even though I didn't notice an appreciable difference. But what I don't understand is how they can look the other way on having 12,000 songs at their instant disposal as a trade-off to a nearly non-existent difference in quality. I'm not following you here. high-end usually means you obsess about quality. It is trivial to get better sound quality, don't use MP3. Use FLAC. If you don't care about the last percent or two, why bother with high-end, just get something decent, say some $600 speakers and a AV receiver. Plug your SqueezeBox into it, and be happy. To me, the sonic differences between the best MP3 and FLAC on my system are night and day. Thinking about getting a Transporter and connecting it to mid-fi systems playing MP3 doesn't make economic sense to me, IMHO, etc. The difference between a Transporter and a SqueezeBox are going to be lost on a mid-fi setup. But YMMV, etc. -- Pat http://www.pfarrell.com/music/slimserver/slimsoftware.html Not sure I follow your logic. Point is that transporter connected to a decent system very clearly approaches the other sources. So, the extra couple % are moving to the much more challenging sources (i.e., vinyl/CD). The reason I haven't used FLAC is for portability. It's more important for me to be flexible than to have that extra %. Night and day certainly is a dramatic description for the difference. Pretty sure I'm not with you. Sounds like I'm down a 5% with all the flexibility and the sysetm would still be top notch. A $600 system isn't in the ball park - didn't follow you there. And of course you wouldn't buy a transporter with that system. -- thomsens thomsens's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=1352 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=32232 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Audiophile shops
JJZolx;175548 Wrote: Among their customer base, I'd venture that it's still pretty rare. They've probably dealt with their share of guys off the street wanting to put together systems to play 128kbps mp3s, same as they've dealt with folks who want to put together entire systems for $300. If you frequent some of the more popular audiophile forums, you'll be struck by how many guys each day are saying OK, I'm ready to do the computer based audio thing. Where do I start?. The funny thing is, I'll bet more than 1/2 of _those_ people couldn't care less about the convenience of computer based playback, nor do they have any desire to stream audio to a remote player - they're looking for better fidelity (go figure). Well here's something to ponder...I got into audio in high school and spent a lot of money at the time on a stereo to take to school. I never regretted it, but somehow I fell out of the audio scene for about 10-15 years. Then I got a turle beach audiotron and ripped my entire collection then more recently an SB. As soon as I ripped my collection, I started listening to music again due to ease of accessibility. It resparked the desire to have a great system and now I'm in the market for high-end gear. So, MP3 drove my desire to buy high-end gear because I can now justify it based on my ability to easily listen to my collection. Point is, I think they really like pulling the vinyl out of the sleeve and putting the needle down. There is something to be said for that if it's what gets them going. -- thomsens thomsens's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=1352 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=32232 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Audiophile shops
It's pretty easy to have the best of both worlds in terms of fidelity and portability. If you rip your CDs to FLAC (or another lossless format), you can very easily convert them to MP3 all in one batch. Then you'll have two sets of files, but the MP3s are much smaller than the FLACs and so the total space required isn't significantly larger than just FLAC. Now just load the MP3s onto your ipod or whatever, and listen to the FLACs with the SB. Given how cheap disk space is, I don't see any reason to do it any other way. -- opaqueice opaqueice's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4234 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=32232 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Audiophile shops
opaqueice;17 Wrote: It's pretty easy to have the best of both worlds in terms of fidelity and portability. If you rip your CDs to FLAC (or another lossless format), you can very easily convert them to MP3 all in one batch. Then you'll have two sets of files, but the MP3s are much smaller than the FLACs and so the total space required isn't significantly larger (than just FLAC). Now just load the MP3s onto your ipod or whatever, and listen to the FLACs with the SB. Given how cheap disk space is, I don't see any reason to do it any other way. I actually just asked this question in the rip area. I'm looking for suggestion on how to do exactly that (easily). -- thomsens thomsens's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=1352 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=32232 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Audiophile shops
Skunk;175535 Wrote: I assume ?!? = rhetorical question. Not really - it means I'm astounded at how clueless these people are and I'm wondering if there is a rational explanation. -- thomsens thomsens's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=1352 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=32232 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Audiophile shops
thomsens;175558 Wrote: I actually just asked this question in the rip area. I'm looking for suggestion on how to do exactly that (easily). There are many ways. Two I've used are MediaMonkey and foobar 2000. You can download both for free; if you haven't used either I'd start with MediaMonkey. Just point it to your FLAC files, select them all, select convert audio format from the tools menu, choose a format to convert to, and go to sleep - in the morning you'll have a whole new library of MP3s. IIRC it will make a directory structure based on the tags. Make sure you don't set it to delete the originals!.. -- opaqueice opaqueice's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4234 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=32232 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Audiophile shops
thomsens;175560 Wrote: Not really - it means I'm astounded at how clueless these people are and I'm wondering if there is a rational explanation. Well I don't believe it's a conspiracy or anything. Remember, the squeezebox is one of the first streaming devices that audiophiles have really accepted. Unless they have a squeezebox or one of the newer equavilents (if there is such a thing) they likely haven't experienced high quality streaming. -- Skunk Skunk's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2685 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=32232 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Audiophile shops
Pat Farrell;175559 Wrote: thomsens wrote: I'm not following you here. high-end usually means you obsess about quality. It is trivial to get better sound quality, don't use MP3. Use FLAC. If you don't care about the last percent or two, why bother with high-end, just get something decent, say some $600 speakers and a AV receiver. Plug your SqueezeBox into it, and be happy. Not sure I follow your logic. Point is that transporter connected to a decent system very clearly approaches the other sources. The point is that using MP3, you are throwing away all the stuff that makes High End, be high end. There is no point in trying to improve the speakers, amp, or make the change from SqueezeBox to Transporter, the weak link is the MP3 files. A Transporter is a good source in a $5000 up system. It is a waste of money if the rest of your system is not up to the standard. And using MP3s means there is nothing a Transporter can do to restore what you've thrown away making MP3s. Look, it is simple. MP3s sound pretty good. They are more than adequate for a lot of people's listening 100% of the time. They are adequate for a very large percentage of people's listening casually. But pretty good is not what 'high end' is about. It is about making it be real. Not real electric guitars distorting their brains out, but real as in a jazz singer's voice, or an acoustic guitar. Or piano. You can get pretty good for a lot less than the $2000 that a Transporter costs. You can get a complete pretty good system for the $2000. Maybe very good to 99% of the folks who listen to music. That is not what audiophiles look for in a high end system. The reason I haven't used FLAC is for portability. It's more important for me to be flexible than to have that extra %. Then be happy with mid-fi. Save your money and spend it on more music, more women, more booze, etc. A $600 system isn't in the ball park - didn't follow you there. And of course you wouldn't buy a transporter with that system. SO what is your budget? My point is that you can get all the quality that MP3 files have, extract it all, with a system with a total cost of less than the Transporter. If you are thinking about spending $5000 or more, which is the entry point for most high end stuff, than you should stop thinking about MP3. Since disks are so cheap, you can have all of your music twice, once in FLAC and once in MP3 for very little money. Terabytes of disk storage cost about what a Transporter costs. This would hold several thousand complete CDs in FLAC and MP3. -- Pat http://www.pfarrell.com/music/slimserver/slimsoftware.html I guess you make a good point about budget assumptions. My budget isn't so limited that I'm concerned about a transient issue of my library being MP3 driving my system choice or that the transporter is $2K. I'd rather set myself up for the inevitable re-rip to FLAC and other nextgen hd formats that might come along. And I do hear a significant difference with higher end gear $10-20K+ with lowly MP3. As I said in the original post, 3 different shops were blown away by the MP3 disc I played. They expected crap and it sounded very good to them. So, if I get a high-end system, I can listen to MP3 most of the time, or simply put a higher quality source in if I want to critically listen. Why limit myself? And naturally I can replace the MP3 with FLAC over time. Your definition of audiophile is extreme, which is fine, but it's different than what I was thinking. There are plenty of us who not satisfied with a Tweeter system of any variety, but won't spend time arguing about a power cord's impact on sound either. For those people, it's a hobby that's become an obsession. For me, it's still just a hobby. So I guess we need a term that means discerning audio fan, but not perfectionist. In any case, I don't see it so black or white. -- thomsens thomsens's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=1352 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=32232 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Audiophile shops
opaqueice;175561 Wrote: There are many ways. Two I've used are MediaMonkey and foobar 2000. You can download both for free; if you haven't used either I'd start with MediaMonkey. Just point it to your FLAC files, select them all, select convert audio format from the tools menu, choose a format to convert to, and go to sleep - in the morning you'll have a whole new library of MP3s. IIRC it will make a directory structure based on the tags. Make sure you don't set it to delete the originals!.. Thanks - I'll give that a shot. -- thomsens thomsens's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=1352 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=32232 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Audiophile shops
Skunk;175565 Wrote: Well I don't believe it's a conspiracy or anything. Remember, the squeezebox is one of the first streaming devices that audiophiles have really accepted. Unless they have a squeezebox or one of the newer equavilents (if there is such a thing) they likely haven't experienced high quality streaming. True - I guess I learned about Slim through computer circles, not audio ones. Still...you'd think by the 10th person mentioning it, they'd pick up a trend. At least one of their respected customers should have clued them in. Who knows... -- thomsens thomsens's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=1352 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=32232 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Audiophile shops
thomsens wrote: I guess you make a good point about budget assumptions. My budget isn't so limited that I'm concerned about a transient issue of my library being MP3 driving my system choice or that the transporter is $2K. I'd rather set myself up for the inevitable re-rip to FLAC and other nextgen hd formats that might come along. There is no need to ever re-rip, even if FLAC becomes obsolete and some other cooler format comes along. All you have to do is convert the FLAC back to PCM uncomressed files, and them recompress with whatever cool thing there is. I'm not holding my breath for something fundamentally different than FLAC. It is getting all the bits that are on a RedBook CD. Sure, you might get a little more compression, but that really doesn't matter much. And FLAC can get better if something cooler comes along, newer tags or whatever. I was hoping that something better than RedBook would connect, but the idiot vendors with their idiotic format wars killed the whole idea. The fact is that RedBook audio is flawed, and could have been fixed fairly easily. SACD and DVD-Audio were overkill, IMHO. What was needed was 20 or 21 bits and 60kHz or so sample rate. As I said in the original post, 3 different shops were blown away by the MP3 disc I played. So find a better shop. So, if I get a high-end system, I can listen to MP3 most of the time, or simply put a higher quality source in if I want to critically listen. You started out with the term high end which among audiophiles has very specific meanings. Nothing that costs less than $20,000 is going to count as high end since audiophiles spend $5000 or more on turntables, and $1000 or more on speaker wires. Your definition of audiophile is extreme, which is fine, but it's different than what I was thinking. I'm using the standard definitions of audiophile and high end, from The Absolute Sound, Stereophile, and other popular magazines. These are the terms that the 'audiophile shops' use. There are plenty of us who not satisfied with a Tweeter system of any variety, No one seriously considers Tweeter as a high end, or audiophile shop. They are a big screen theater retailer. So I guess we need a term that means discerning audio fan, but not perfectionist. In any case, I don't see it so black or white. You can use any terms you want, but the ones you have used are well defined in the audiophile and high-end space. If you use terms with your own private definitions, you should expect confusion. -- Pat http://www.pfarrell.com/music/slimserver/slimsoftware.html ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Audiophile shops
thomsens;175516 Wrote: But what I don't understand is how they can look the other way on having 12,000 songs at their instant disposal as a trade-off to a nearly non-existent difference in quality. I guess it's a hobby and it's more about the pursuit of perfection than anything based on reality. Or maybe they feel it threatens a revenue stream for source components and cables. It makes me question all of their advice, though. First and most important, there are loads of CDPs and DVDPs for well under $300. that sound better much than a SB3. Next, everyone doesn't need or want access to 12,000 songs at their instant disposal, and yes, there is a difference in sound quality. How often do you listen to each of those 12K tracks each year? Finally, the average music lover doesn't want to mess with computer based audio. IMO, once the big guys like Sony, Pioneer, etc... start offering music server versions of their DVD HD recorders that currently sell for under $500., SD and the rest of this niche market are toast. -- jhm731 jhm731's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7685 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=32232 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Audiophile shops
Everyone I know with experience with computer-based audio says the same thing - it's far, far more convenient, and once they have their collection ripped, or access to online music streaming services, they listen to much more music than before and discover all kinds of new stuff. That's certainly been the case for me. The SB is great; it's far superior to CDs. The claim that there are $300 (or any price) CD players that sound much better than the SB3 is simply false, IMO. The main barrier to adoption of computer based audio is fear of an unfamiliar technology. Ask anyone under 25 what they use for a music source and you'll see the (very near) future. -- opaqueice opaqueice's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4234 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=32232 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Audiophile shops
jhm731;175575 Wrote: Next, everyone doesn't need or want access to 12,000 songs at their instant disposal, and yes, there is a difference in sound quality. How often do you listen to each of those 12K tracks each year? Why wouldn't you? 100 songs and 12,000 are just as easy. I just don't have to change discs now. And sometimes it's fun to let the system randomize. Just because you have it doesn't mean you have to use it either. I listen to a lot of songs that I wouldn't because of this. Most wouldn't appreciate that until they have it. Not sure why you take it so literally. 12,000 tracks represents many CDs with at least a track or two that I like on each, right? So, it would be a pain to listen to my favorites unless I didn't have to change discs. Now I don't have to. jhm731;175575 Wrote: Finally, the average music lover doesn't want to mess with computer based audio. Could be true, but will be less so with time. Just as they learned to mess with DVDs and everything else. Grandma is on the internet...I think average music folks will come around. How many people do you know that don't have a computer? Can you get any more complex than a computer? jhm731;175575 Wrote: IMO, once the big guys like Sony, Pioneer, etc... start offering music server versions of their DVD HD recorders that currently sell for under $500., SD and the rest of this niche market are toast. Those are the old big guys. I think the new big guys could be MS, Apple, and Cisco. The network will do for the home owner what it did to the enterprise. Show me a single business of any size that doesn't rely on their network as a critical business asset. The home will completely transform too. We'll still have sony, pioneer, etc., but they will most likely be endpoint providers. -- thomsens thomsens's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=1352 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=32232 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Audiophile shops
Pat Farrell;175573 Wrote: thomsens wrote: I guess you make a good point about budget assumptions. My budget isn't so limited that I'm concerned about a transient issue of my library being MP3 driving my system choice or that the transporter is $2K. I'd rather set myself up for the inevitable re-rip to FLAC and other nextgen hd formats that might come along. There is no need to ever re-rip, even if FLAC becomes obsolete and some other cooler format comes along. All you have to do is convert the FLAC back to PCM uncomressed files, and them recompress with whatever cool thing there is. I'm not holding my breath for something fundamentally different than FLAC. It is getting all the bits that are on a RedBook CD. Sure, you might get a little more compression, but that really doesn't matter much. And FLAC can get better if something cooler comes along, newer tags or whatever. I was hoping that something better than RedBook would connect, but the idiot vendors with their idiotic format wars killed the whole idea. The fact is that RedBook audio is flawed, and could have been fixed fairly easily. SACD and DVD-Audio were overkill, IMHO. What was needed was 20 or 21 bits and 60kHz or so sample rate. As I said in the original post, 3 different shops were blown away by the MP3 disc I played. So find a better shop. So, if I get a high-end system, I can listen to MP3 most of the time, or simply put a higher quality source in if I want to critically listen. You started out with the term high end which among audiophiles has very specific meanings. Nothing that costs less than $20,000 is going to count as high end since audiophiles spend $5000 or more on turntables, and $1000 or more on speaker wires. Your definition of audiophile is extreme, which is fine, but it's different than what I was thinking. I'm using the standard definitions of audiophile and high end, from The Absolute Sound, Stereophile, and other popular magazines. These are the terms that the 'audiophile shops' use. There are plenty of us who not satisfied with a Tweeter system of any variety, No one seriously considers Tweeter as a high end, or audiophile shop. They are a big screen theater retailer. So I guess we need a term that means discerning audio fan, but not perfectionist. In any case, I don't see it so black or white. You can use any terms you want, but the ones you have used are well defined in the audiophile and high-end space. If you use terms with your own private definitions, you should expect confusion. -- Pat http://www.pfarrell.com/music/slimserver/slimsoftware.html Either you aren't actually reading my posts, or you simply can't understand where I'm coming from. I'd have to spend more time correcting your understanding of what I said than replying...so, we'll drop it. -- thomsens thomsens's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=1352 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=32232 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Audiophile shops
thomsens- You bypassed: First and most important, there are loads of CDPs and DVDPs for well under $300. that sound better much than a SB3. You and opaqueice need to go down to your local Costco and pick up a $50. DVDP. IMO, the main barrier audiophiles have to the adoption of computer based audio isn't the fear of an unfamiliar technology, it's poor sound quality. -- jhm731 jhm731's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7685 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=32232 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Audiophile shops
jhm731;175588 Wrote: thomsens- You bypassed: First and most important, there are loads of CDPs and DVDPs for well under $300. that sound better much than a SB3. You and opaqueice need to go down to your local Costco and pick up a $50. DVDP. IMO, the main barrier audiophiles have to the adoption of computer based audio isn't the fear of an unfamiliar technology, it's poor sound quality. I bypassed that because I don't agree and actually don't care to argue. Some may sound better, but much better is too strong in my opinion. Since I haven't done a study, I can't say that I really know either. In any case, I thought the more interesting discussion was about the future. SB quality will continue to get cheaper too, like all technology. Calling FLAC on Transporter poor sound quality is pure ignorance. The best possible, maybe not. Yours and pfarrel's overly strong statements reduce the effectiveness of your arguements, IMO. -- thomsens thomsens's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=1352 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=32232 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Audiophile shops
thomsens;175589 Wrote: Yours and pfarrel's overly strong statements reduce the effectiveness of your arguements, IMO. Well you did say 'high end'. Pat is right that true audiophiles spend outrageous sums on high end setups, but I think you'll find that most people around here are more scientifically minded when it comes to cables and tweaks. Audiophile, for that matter, is not the term of endearment you'd expect around here- given the forum title. -- Skunk Skunk's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2685 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=32232 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Audiophile shops
Skunk;175591 Wrote: Well you did say 'high end'. Pat is right that true audiophiles spend outrageous sums on high end setups, but I think you'll find that most people around here are more scientifically minded when it comes to cables and tweaks. Audiophile, for that matter, is not the term of endearment you'd expect around here- given the forum title. Truth be known my budget is more than 2-3x what I stated. But, I was just trying to get him out of his notion that I should consider best buy gear. He wouldn't listen though... -- thomsens thomsens's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=1352 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=32232 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
