[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Flac vs Wma
This is still being investigated and I can expect a resolution within 5 working days .then again this is Microsoft so they are just as likely to close the ticket and deny any knowledge of it!! -- steelee steelee's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4547 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=22457 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Flac vs Wma
Did you ever get a response on this support call? Inquiring minds want to know!On 3/28/06, steelee < [EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:I'm using MP10 and can't find anywhere to turn it off, have logged a support call with MS via a select account we have at work!! so willwait to see what they have to say..--steeleesteelee's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4547View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=22457 ___audiophiles mailing listaudiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Flac vs Wma
snarlydwarf Wrote: > it won't do volume levelling unless you use the magical import and > convert. Great news. I'll add 'don't use the magical button' to my ongoing mental list of things _not_ to do in software I don't use. The only other thing on the list so far is to avoid updating Itunes. -- Skunk Skunk's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2685 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=22457 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Flac vs Wma
Skunk Wrote: > Nice. Your dedication in getting to the bottom of this is admirable. I'm > assuming you had to run it in an emulator, given your noted penchant for > Linux :-) Hah, I have a windows machine for running Final Fantasy XI. :P (Now, if Squeenix would have released for the PS2 and the PC at the same time, I would have skipped the PC... and now my ps2 is getting flaky so I can't format the 'doze machine until ffxi/ps3 works. :)) Oh, and I double checked: if you drop a plain old mp3 into the player, it won't do volume levelling unless you use the magical import and convert. So it's not doing on-the-fly stuff (which agrees with what's on the page at microsoft...), it does it when it rips or when it imports. -- snarlydwarf snarlydwarf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=1179 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=22457 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Flac vs Wma
snarlydwarf Wrote: > Okay, I just ripped a track to WMA lossless >8 Nice. Your dedication in getting to the bottom of this is admirable. I'm assuming you had to run it in an emulator, given your noted penchant for Linux :-) -- Skunk Skunk's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2685 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=22457 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Flac vs Wma
Okay, I just ripped a track to WMA lossless, with the Volume Level turned off (which is a player-mode setting, but what the heck..) I then played it with WMA, and if I go, mid-song, and click on the Turn on auto volume levelling, the song level changes instantly. (Amusingly, on this particular a track, from Sambas de Enredo 1990, has -lower- volume when adjusted. It sounds like poop. But YMMV with different source material.) Again: that page tells you how to have WMP import things and figure out gain adjustments in the process. Not rip: import existing wma and mp3 files. When it rips, it always adds the magic flags for level adjustment. You have the choice of changing whether the flags are honored within WMP. I have no idea if the flags are honored in 'wmadec' or even available as a choice in the API. -- snarlydwarf snarlydwarf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=1179 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=22457 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Flac vs Wma
That's to add it to those in the library... note at the top of that page that it says it automatically adds it to cd's that it rips. -- snarlydwarf snarlydwarf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=1179 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=22457 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Flac vs Wma
Oh, yeah, and the other adjustment is whether to honor the level adjustments in playback. They're still there. -- snarlydwarf snarlydwarf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=1179 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=22457 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Flac vs Wma
snarlydwarf Wrote: > In fact, I don't see a way to turn it off on ripping at least with the > WMP 10 that is here: > > Options/Devices/DVD-RW(D:)/Quality or something? That is for applying > volume level changes when burning, not reading. > > Under Options/Rip Music there is no setting for volume levelling, > regardless of format. > > Where do you see the choice to turn it off? Quoting from the Microsoft webpage referenced in this thread: - To add a volume-leveling value to files you add to your library 1. In Windows Media Player, press F3. The Add to Library by Searching Computer dialog box is displayed. 2. Click Advanced Options, and then select the Add volume leveling values for all files (slow) check box. The next time you add files to your library, any files that are in the Windows Media or MP3 format will have the volume-leveling value added to them. To turn on volume leveling 1. In Windows Media Player, click Now Playing. 2. Click the Select Now Playing Options button, point to Enhancements, and then click Crossfading and Auto Volume Leveling --- What am I missing? -- cvj cvj's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2979 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=22457 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Flac vs Wma
ModelCitizen Wrote: > Having read this thread and become so tired of the constant reiteration > and the fact that all the info required exists elsewhere > (www.hydrogenaudio.org) and is easy to find if the trouble were taken, > I was tempted to say.. look, it's Microsoft. They want your money. The > guy who wrote Flac (Josh Coleson... Hi Josh!) doesn't (he just wants > something he can use that is truly lossless). > The bottom line is that they are both lossless and so the result is > (supposed to be) exactly the same. You can trust Josh. You can't f* > trust Microsoft! They have changed the file somewhere... replay gain or > not. > > But I admit I have a short fuse: This will do: > > The tags bit should be enough really. Encode it to what you want (who > gives a s***) then think about something else. C'mon. > MC The short answer is that if the discussion doesn't interest you, then don't participate in the discussion. -- P Floding P Floding's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2932 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=22457 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Flac vs Wma
I was curious to hear what Microsoft had to say for themselves re: wma lossless. Have they responded to your support ticket? -- Skunk Skunk's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2685 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=22457 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Flac vs Wma
abdomen Wrote: > I have been participating in this thread on the understanding that its > thrust is helping steelee find the cause of the audible volume and > quality differences he is hearing between his FLAC and WMA Lossless > files. We did that already. The reason the WMA's sounded "better" is that they were ripped with some normalization applied, thus making them louder than the FLAC/WAV files. He just needs to figure out how to disable it, if he even wants to bother with WMA. The advice myself and others are giving is to ditch WMA, take our word for it that all lossless codecs sound the same, and just use FLAC. -- ezkcdude SB3->Derek Shek TDA1543/CS8412 NOS DAC->MIT Terminator 2 interconnects->Endler Audio 24-step Attenuators (RCA-direct)->Parasound Halo A23 125W/ch amplifier->Speltz anti-cables->DIY 2-ways + Dayton Titanic 10" subwoofer He's not hi-fi, he's my stereo. ezkcdude's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2545 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=22457 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Flac vs Wma
And I thank abdomen and all others who have offered advice on the issues I'm having, It may well seem very simple to most but it's all still very new to me I have never needed to bother to rip a CD before buying a SB so I apologise if I'm going over old ground, anyway I'll take a look at www.hydrogenaudio.org Thanks. -- steelee steelee's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4547 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=22457 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Flac vs Wma
ModelCitizen Wrote: > Having read this thread and become so tired of the constant reiteration > and the fact that all the info required exists elsewhere > (www.hydrogenaudio.org) and is easy to find if the trouble were taken, > I was tempted to say.. look, it's Microsoft. They want your money. The > guy who wrote Flac (Josh Coleson... Hi Josh!) doesn't (he just wants > something he can use that is truly lossless). > The bottom line is that they are both lossless and so the result is > (supposed to be) exactly the same. You can trust Josh. You can't f* > trust Microsoft! They have changed the file somewhere... replay gain or > not. > > But I admit I have a short fuse: This will do: > > The tags bit should be enough really. Encode it to what you want (who > gives a s***) then think about something else. C'mon. > MC I have been participating in this thread on the understanding that its thrust is helping steelee find the cause of the audible volume and quality differences he is hearing between his FLAC and WMA Lossless files. steelee Wrote: > I am sitting here at my pc and have just ripped Simply Red (the best of > ) twice, once to raw Wav and then compressed to Flac level 5, and one > to Lossless WMA, am now doing a comparison and there is no question the > WMA file DO sound better, treble is brighter and bass more controlled I > dont understand why this is the case but it is a fact no question. > > Ps the bitrate is set to no limit. -- abdomen abdomen's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=1205 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=22457 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Flac vs Wma
Having read this thread and become so tired of the constant reiteration and the fact that all the info required exists elsewhere (www.hydrogenaudio.org) and is easy to find if the trouble were taken, I was tempted to say.. look, it's Microsoft. They want your money. The guy who wrote Flac (Josh Coleson... Hi Josh!) doesn't (he just wants something he can use that is truly lossless). The bottom line is that they are both lossless and so the result is (supposed to be) exactly the same. You can trust Josh. You can't f* trust Microsoft! They have changed the file somewhere... replay gain or not. But I admit I have a short fuse: This will do: ezkcdude Wrote: > FLAC is better because 1) it is not proprietary (not M$) 2) supports > tags 3) it's cross-platform (not just Windows) and 4) decodes quickly > and natively on SB3. The tags bit should be enough really. Encode it to what you want (who gives a s***) then think about something else. C'mon. MC -- ModelCitizen ModelCitizen's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=446 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=22457 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Flac vs Wma
ezkcdude Wrote: > I guess you didn't sense the sarcasm (the wink!). Anyway, of course, > they should sound the same. FLAC is better because 1) it is not > proprietary (not M$) 2) supports tags 3) it's cross-platform (not just > Windows) and 4) decodes quickly and natively on SB3. (And, also, it's > better because I say so.) The native decoding on the SB2/3 is the reason I use FLAC. That enables FF/RW within tracks, which is a must for me, though I gather others can live without it just fine. -- abdomen abdomen's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=1205 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=22457 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Flac vs Wma
steelee Wrote: > Why is flac better, I thought the general consensus is that they should > sound the same ..? I guess you didn't sense the sarcasm (the wink!). Anyway, of course, they should sound the same. FLAC is better because 1) it is not proprietary (not M$) 2) supports tags 3) it's cross-platform (not just Windows) and 4) decodes quickly and natively on SB3. (And, also, it's better because I say so.) -- ezkcdude SB3->Derek Shek TDA1543/CS8412 NOS DAC->MIT Terminator 2 interconnects->Endler Audio 24-step Attenuators (RCA-direct)->Parasound Halo A23 125W/ch amplifier->Speltz anti-cables->DIY 2-ways + Dayton Titanic 10" subwoofer He's not hi-fi, he's my stereo. ezkcdude's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2545 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=22457 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Flac vs Wma
Why is flac better, I thought the general consensus is that they should sound the same ..? -- steelee steelee's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4547 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=22457 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Flac vs Wma
steelee Wrote: > I'm using MP10 and can't find anywhere to turn it off, have logged a > support call with MS via a select account we have at work!! so will > wait to see what they have to say.. Here's an idea: Stop using WMA Lossless! Just take our word for it that FLAC is better ;) -- ezkcdude SB3->Derek Shek TDA1543/CS8412 NOS DAC->MIT Terminator 2 interconnects->Endler Audio 24-step Attenuators (RCA-direct)->Parasound Halo A23 125W/ch amplifier->Speltz anti-cables->DIY 2-ways + Dayton Titanic 10" subwoofer He's not hi-fi, he's my stereo. ezkcdude's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2545 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=22457 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Flac vs Wma
steelee wrote: I'm using MP10 and can't find anywhere to turn it off, have logged a support call with MS via a select account we have at work!! so will wait to see what they have to say.. If you get the chance, try to confirm not only whether automatic level adjustment is occurring, but how it is implemented. In other words, are gain information tags being stored and applied on playback, or is the adjustment being applied to the audio data itself before it is stored. Big difference. If it uses tags, then the original data is theoretically recoverable. If not, the WMP Lossless isn't lossless at all. Maybe someone on HydrogenAudio has some knowledge of this. Of course, the likeliest response will be a hailstorm of "Don't Do That" remarks. --rt ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Flac vs Wma
steelee Wrote: > I'm using MP10 and can't find anywhere to turn it off, have logged a > support call with MS via a select account we have at work!! so will > wait to see what they have to say.. Have you tried ripping to WAV, then creating a FLAC and a WMA lossless by converting from the same WAV file? That would rule out differences in the rip. -- abdomen abdomen's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=1205 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=22457 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Flac vs Wma
I'm using MP10 and can't find anywhere to turn it off, have logged a support call with MS via a select account we have at work!! so will wait to see what they have to say.. -- steelee steelee's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4547 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=22457 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Flac vs Wma
In fact, I don't see a way to turn it off on ripping at least with the WMP 10 that is here: Options/Devices/DVD-RW(D:)/Quality or something? That is for applying volume level changes when burning, not reading. Under Options/Rip Music there is no setting for volume levelling, regardless of format. Where do you see the choice to turn it off? -- snarlydwarf snarlydwarf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=1179 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=22457 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Flac vs Wma
cvj Wrote: > I encode all my files with WMA Lossless - the option to employ "volume > leveling" when ripping a CD is off by default. Interesting: Microsoft says exactly the opposite. -- snarlydwarf snarlydwarf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=1179 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=22457 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Flac vs Wma
snarlydwarf Wrote: > From the MS web page, I don't see that. It looks like it is -always- > encoded with the equivalent of replay-gain turned on. I don't have > Windows, so no idea what's in the menus. > > I just have google. :) I encode all my files with WMA Lossless - the option to employ "volume leveling" when ripping a CD is off by default. -- cvj cvj's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2979 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=22457 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Flac vs Wma
snarlydwarf wrote: It looks like it is -always- encoded with the equivalent of replay-gain turned on. Any idea of whether this is accomplished by storing gain adjustment tags in the file header data, or actually applied to the audio data? If it's the latter, then WMP Lossless isn't. Lossless that is. --rt ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Flac vs Wma
Looks like there's a checkbox in WMP Advanced Options that allows or disallows "volume levelling". Encode the test files without "volume leveling" (WMA) or ReplayGain (FLAC) and then try listening again. -- Pale Blue Ego Pale Blue Ego's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=110 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=22457 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Flac vs Wma
snarlydwarf Wrote: > considering that Microsoft says that WMP -does- do "Volume levelling," > my bet is that the WMA files have been "adjusted." > > http://tinyurl.com/pacj2 > > So, yes, it sure sounds to me like the "it is louder, therefore it is > better" illusion. You can turn it off, right? -- ezkcdude SB3->Derek Shek TDA1543/CS8412 NOS DAC->MIT Terminator 2 interconnects->Endler Audio 24-step Attenuators (RCA-direct)->Parasound Halo A23 125W/ch amplifier->Speltz anti-cables->DIY 2-ways + Dayton Titanic 10" subwoofer He's not hi-fi, he's my stereo. ezkcdude's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2545 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=22457 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Flac vs Wma
>From the MS web page, I don't see that. It looks like it is -always- encoded with the equivalent of replay-gain turned on. I don't have Windows, so no idea what's in the menus. I just have google. :) -- snarlydwarf snarlydwarf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=1179 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=22457 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Flac vs Wma
considering that Microsoft says that WMP -does- do "Volume levelling," my bet is that the WMA files have been "adjusted." > > This value is automatically added to the files that are created when > you rip (copy) music from CDs. > http://tinyurl.com/pacj2 So, yes, it sure sounds to me like the "it is louder, therefore it is better" illusion. -- snarlydwarf snarlydwarf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=1179 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=22457 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Flac vs Wma
steelee Wrote: > Has anyone actually done any comparison of Lossless Wma vs Flac Or is it > the assumption that flac must sound better? No, the assumption is that all lossless formats sound the same, and it doesn't matter if they are unpacked on the server or in the SB (when possible). It is reality that begs to differ. -- P Floding P Floding's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2932 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=22457 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Flac vs Wma
abdomen Wrote: > a perceptible volume difference, is improbable in the extreme when > comparing lossless against lossless. Let's put it this way: If there is a difference, and the difference has nothing to do with gain, then there must be a bug somewhere, ipso facto. -- ezkcdude SB3->Derek Shek TDA1543/CS8412 NOS DAC->MIT Terminator 2 interconnects->Endler Audio 24-step Attenuators (RCA-direct)->Parasound Halo A23 125W/ch amplifier->Speltz anti-cables->DIY 2-ways + Dayton Titanic 10" subwoofer He's not hi-fi, he's my stereo. ezkcdude's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2545 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=22457 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Flac vs Wma
steelee Wrote: > Right shut everything and restarted, Ripped dire straits to Wav Flac > and Wma used the excellent track private investigations as a reference > and wma still sounds the best (much brighter) > Bitrate > wma = 654VBR > wav = 1411 > flac = 563 > What is going on? > Brother in law has done some blind tests and 4 out of 5 picked wma > Also the wma files are quite a bit louder then the wav or flac files? Have you totally ruled out Replay Gain being performed on the Squeezebox end? Have you totally ruled out transcoding being performed on the Slimserver end? I wish I could tell you precisely how to do those things, but I can tell you that a difference in sound quality, let alone a perceptible volume difference, is improbable in the extreme when comparing lossless against lossless. -- abdomen abdomen's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=1205 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=22457 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Flac vs Wma
steelee wrote: Has anyone actually done any comparison of Lossless Wma vs Flac Or is it the assumption that flac must sound better? On the contrary, I believe the assumption is that they should sound exactly the same. Each file format is storing a compressed, but fully retrievable, representation of the original bits. Presumably, there is no problem here and the bits are being retrieved correctly after decompression. So, what else could account for the difference? 1)If one or the other is being inadvertently transcoded to a lossy format by the server. Check your server settings. 2)If one or the other is having its gain adjusted somewhere in the process. Most likely this would be due to the encoding software either altering the original data before storage or adding gain tags that are triggering SlimServer to apply adjustment. Control for this by turning off SlimServer's gain adjustment features and making sure that the WMA encoder isn't changing the data. For the latter compare original WAV data with a copy that has been compressed to WMA Lossless by your encoder then decompressed back to WAV. 3)That there is some difference caused by the server-side decoding of WMA Lossless tracks vs. the SB decoding of FLAC tracks. Though this seems unlikely, it could be controlled for by decoding both WMA Lossless and FLAC tracks to WAV on the server before sending to the SB. perhaps others?? --rt ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Flac vs Wma
The assumption is that they should be the same, as both are lossless.On 3/27/06, steelee < [EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:Has anyone actually done any comparison of Lossless Wma vs Flac Or is it the assumption that flac must sound better?--steeleesteelee's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4547View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=22457___ audiophiles mailing listaudiophiles@lists.slimdevices.comhttp://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Flac vs Wma
Has anyone actually done any comparison of Lossless Wma vs Flac Or is it the assumption that flac must sound better? -- steelee steelee's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4547 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=22457 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Flac vs Wma
I think it should be pointed out that, given the way the squeezebox functions, the fact that both formats are lossless, and the way a computer network operates, it's close to impossible for there to be any difference in sound quality. Just about the only way I can see this could happen is due to the processing of the file inside the squeezebox, but I'm very skeptical of that for reasons I can explain if asked. I'm saying saying this in a friendly spirit, not to criticize or flame you; if you prefer WMA by all means use it. I just feel it's worth pointing out in the context of this discussion. On the issue of volume, I fully agree with the above posters. I've experienced this "louder sounds better" effect many times in my own attempts to do blind tests. I would suggest having your friend try to volume match using the volume control, remembering that even very small differences in volume make a difference. -- opaqueice opaqueice's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4234 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=22457 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Flac vs Wma
steelee Wrote: > Media player isn't the most configurable piece of software ever designed > and I can't find any way to 'correct' the wma files although I see no > reason to do thisto me they sound better so I will just continue to > rip files to WMA... Did you try comparing to FLAC with transcoding to WAV on the server? BTW, I assume we are talking about WMA-lossless? (Pardon me if you specified this earlier.) -- P Floding P Floding's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2932 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=22457 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Flac vs Wma
Media player isn't the most configurable piece of software ever designed and I can't find any way to 'correct' the wma files although I see no reason to do thisto me they sound better so I will just continue to rip files to WMA... -- steelee steelee's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4547 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=22457 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Flac vs Wma
steelee Wrote: > > Also the wma files are quite a bit louder then the wav or flac files? This IS the problem. If done correctly, there should be no difference in volume. Therefore, something about the way you are encoding WMA is changing the volume. THAT is why is sounds "better". Actually, as pointed out above, louder is pyschologically interpreted as better by our ears, and it only takes a very slight difference (~1.5 dB) to perceive this effect. Unless you figure out how to volume match, or correct your WMA files, you cannot claim they sound "better". It's simply not doing a correct comparison. -- ezkcdude SB3->Derek Shek TDA1543/CS8412 NOS DAC->MIT Terminator 2 interconnects->Endler Audio 24-step Attenuators (RCA-direct)->Parasound Halo A23 125W/ch amplifier->Speltz anti-cables->DIY 2-ways + Dayton Titanic 10" subwoofer He's not hi-fi, he's my stereo. ezkcdude's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2545 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=22457 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Flac vs Wma
I've had the experience of music streamed as FLAC sounding different from both raw WAV files and FLAC decoded at the server and streamed as WAV (which sound identical to me). I take it on faith that the FLAC decoding is working perfectly on both ends, so the difference has to be somewhere in the additional processing the SB has to do to decode the compressed form. These observations were made without DB testing so you'll need to take them for what you think they're worth. - Ken Phil Leigh wrote: Agreed - good enough to resolve issue with the sources - and I can't argue with Chord cabling! Definitely something odd going on here...FLAC and WAV sound identical to me (server side or player side FLAC decoding) - I don't have any WMA files to try though. ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Flac vs Wma
steelee Wrote: > > Also the wma files are quite a bit louder then the wav or flac files? Replay gain? I don't use media player, does it adjust the gain of a track when encoding? Is there a replay gain setting that it's adding that your FLAC encoding isn't? 'Louder' is often interpreted as 'better' by many listeners. -- snarlydwarf snarlydwarf's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=1179 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=22457 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Flac vs Wma
Have you tried flac transcoded to wav on the server, rather than on the player- compared to wma? Sorry if you answered that already. -- Skunk Skunk's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2685 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=22457 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Flac vs Wma
Right shut everything and restarted, Ripped dire straits to Wav Flac and Wma used the excellent track private investigations as a reference and wma still sounds the best (much brighter) Bitrate wma = 654VBR wma = 1411 flac = 563 What is going on? -- steelee steelee's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4547 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=22457 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Flac vs Wma
Have a friend help you do some blind tests. -- highdudgeon SB3, Sony DVP 555es, Bel Canto Pre2, Carver Sunfire, Rane DEQ60L, Harbeth Monitor 40s, ACI Force subs highdudgeon's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2195 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=22457 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Flac vs Wma
steelee Wrote: > 920 kps for the WMA and 1453 for the Flac Something's not right then. The bitrate for FLAC should be approximately 700-900 kbs, similar to the WMA. The bit rate for uncompressed WAV is around 1400 kbs (1411 I think), which is lower that the rate you listed for FLAC. -- ezkcdude SB3->Derek Shek TDA1543/CS8412 NOS DAC->MIT Terminator 2 interconnects->Endler Audio 24-step Attenuators (RCA-direct)->Parasound Halo A23 125W/ch amplifier->Speltz anti-cables->DIY 2-ways + Dayton Titanic 10" subwoofer He's not hi-fi, he's my stereo. ezkcdude's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2545 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=22457 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Flac vs Wma
920 kps for the WMA and 1453 for the Flac -- steelee steelee's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4547 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=22457 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Flac vs Wma
Agreed - good enough to resolve issue with the sources - and I can't argue with Chord cabling! Definitely something odd going on here...FLAC and WAV sound identical to me (server side or player side FLAC decoding) - I don't have any WMA files to try though. -- Phil Leigh Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=22457 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Flac vs Wma
steelee Wrote: > flac is being sent as flac, I was under the impression the WMA files get > transcoded in software - Neither are > being transcoded to mp3 What does the bitrate show for each type of track on the squeezebox display (now playing--> press right-->scroll down until bitrate is displayed). -- abdomen abdomen's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=1205 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=22457 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Flac vs Wma
flac is being sent as flac, I was under the impression the WMA files get transcoded in software - Neither are being transcoded to mp3 -- steelee steelee's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4547 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=22457 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Flac vs Wma
steelee wrote: > Yes it is a reasonably decent system, > Marantz PM7001KI amp - B&W 803S - chord cabling > > Wma sounds closest to the raw wav file, with the flac it seems to lose > some brightness? Can you make sure you are sure of your transcoding options, i.e. is flac being sent as flac or wav? Is wma being sent as flac or wav? Neither are being transcoded to mp3 are they? R> ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Flac vs Wma
Yes it is a reasonably decent system, Marantz PM7001KI amp - B&W 803S - chord cabling Wma sounds closest to the raw wav file, with the flac it seems to lose some brightness? -- steelee steelee's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4547 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=22457 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Flac vs Wma
I presume you are listening to an SB through some reasonably decent system? -- Phil Leigh Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=22457 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Re: Flac vs Wma
steelee wrote: > I am sitting here at my pc and have just ripped Simply Red (the best of > ) twice, once to raw Wav and then compressed to Flac level 5, and one > to Lossless WMA, am now doing a comparison and there is no question the > WMA file DO sound better, treble is brighter and bass more controlled I > don’t understand why this is the case but it is a fact …no question. Which sounds closest to the raw wav file? R. ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
