Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] The Future Is LAME: The Truth About MP3 ...LAME = Lame ain't an Mp3 Encoder
See,this is more like it. A bit of conversation. -- Nonreality -IF THE RULE YOU FOLLOWED BROUGHT YOU TO THIS, OF WHAT USE IS THE RULE.- HTTP://www.last.fm/user/nonreality Nonreality's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=15723 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=50937 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] The Future Is LAME: The Truth About MP3 ...LAME = Lame ain't an Mp3 Encoder
Themis;328812 Wrote: Theoretically it could have been possible. In practice, it's not the case. At least, it's not the case with the music I tend to listen to, and it's not the case listening through LAME MP3 320 (even using slow, high quality algorithm) into the rest of my hifi system. But it's possible that someone actually -may- find that the encoded result is better through the rest of his audio gear. In such a case, something has to be changed : it is an abnormal situation, and it simply means the person's system choices are inadequate to his taste, habits and expectations. Imho. Or he may like it and not want to change it. I mean that's the whole purpose of a system, to get a sound that you like. Why, if he or she really liked the sound, would that be wrong? That would be like saying a certain speaker sound is wrong. Now I could see your point if it was taken to extremes but in nuances and styles I don't see what is wrong with liking a style of sound. That's what we are looking for I think. Look at what you say here. If a person were to like the mp3 file because it sounds better to them on their equipment then they are,or their choices are inadequate. I don't get that. There is not that much of difference in a 320 mp3 file and a flac. Not to many I mean, and not enough to make a declaration like that. -- Nonreality -IF THE RULE YOU FOLLOWED BROUGHT YOU TO THIS, OF WHAT USE IS THE RULE.- HTTP://www.last.fm/user/nonreality Nonreality's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=15723 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=50937 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] The Future Is LAME: The Truth About MP3 ...LAME = Lame ain't an Mp3 Encoder
For some reason, humans, especially those with a lot of money, often confuse the concepts of different and better. It's as if there is an inverse relationship between acquiring money and the ability to apply one's intelligence to anything except acquiring more money. Three of the results of this effect are wine snobbery, audiophoolishness, and the price of California real estate. TD -- tyler_durden tyler_durden's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2701 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=50937 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] The Future Is LAME: The Truth About MP3 ...LAME = Lame ain't an Mp3 Encoder
Nonreality;328929 Wrote: Or he may like it and not want to change it. I mean that's the whole purpose of a system, to get a sound that you like. Why, if he or she really liked the sound, would that be wrong? That would be like saying a certain speaker sound is wrong. Now I could see your point if it was taken to extremes but in nuances and styles I don't see what is wrong with liking a style of sound. That's what we are looking for I think. Look at what you say here. If a person were to like the mp3 file because it sounds better to them on their equipment then they are,or their choices are inadequate. I don't get that. There is not that much of difference in a 320 mp3 file and a flac. Not to many I mean, and not enough to make a declaration like that.I'll try to express it in a different way : I mean, that if someone prefers MP3 to CDs on his system, then (probably) he made a wrong initial decision (because he initially bought his system to listen to CDs). So if CDs sound worse than the MP3 encoder, then he should have probably bought a system which sounded as the MP3 encoder : it's quite possible, such systems do exist. And they are cheaper. :) -- Themis SB3 - Denon 3808 - Sonus Faber Grand Piano Domus Themis's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=14700 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=50937 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] The Future Is LAME: The Truth About MP3 ...LAME = Lame ain't an Mp3 Encoder
tyler_durden;328846 Wrote: If you really want to be shocked, play a recording on your CD player then play the same on a cylinder player. There is NO contest, the cylinder wins hands-down. Are you serious? (It's a little hard to tell with you sometimes.) I heard one of those once, and it sounded tinny, far away, kind of canned... far, far less like a real sound than any halfway decent modern system. Don't get me wrong, it -was- beautiful. It generated a kind of instant emotional reaction - a nostalgia for the long-lost past - which greatly intensified the experience of listening to it. Personally I suspect that's really what's behind the audiophile obsession with vacuum tubes and records - it's got nothing to do with the sound per se. It's nostalgia, pure and simple. -- opaqueice opaqueice's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4234 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=50937 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] The Future Is LAME: The Truth About MP3 ...LAME = Lame ain't an Mp3 Encoder
tyler_durden;329002 Wrote: For some reason, humans, especially those with a lot of money, often confuse the concepts of different and better. It's as if there is an inverse relationship between acquiring money and the ability to apply one's intelligence to anything except acquiring more money. Three of the results of this effect are wine snobbery, audiophoolishness, and the price of California real estate. TDIt's also probably easier to define different than better when it comes to sound quality. The better part just gets you into trouble with some people. ouch... didn't duck fast enough. Oh and up here it's the price of real estate that California people buy. -- Nonreality -IF THE RULE YOU FOLLOWED BROUGHT YOU TO THIS, OF WHAT USE IS THE RULE.- HTTP://www.last.fm/user/nonreality Nonreality's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=15723 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=50937 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] The Future Is LAME: The Truth About MP3 ...LAME = Lame ain't an Mp3 Encoder
Themis;328201 Wrote: Perhaps it's on April's issue of Positive Feedback ? :D Sorry to say that the article appeared in the July/August 2007 issue. Nonreality;328090 Wrote: And off we go! I take your comment to mean that the audiophiles would be all up in arms about over this article. After all the article is filled with transgressions against the standard audiophile dogma: lossy compressed audio sounding better than full resolution audio and losslessly compressed audio, and several mentions of double blind testing. Let me throw the ball back into your court. Audiophiles are often derided for not believing in measurements, two classic examples of this are 1) the love of analog over digital since on paper and via test measurements digital as some very clear advantages over analog (signal to noise ratio, no generational losses, etc) and 2) the love of tube electronics when solid state electronics have much better test measurements. Now in the case of audiophiles preferring uncompressed or losslessly compressed audio over lossy compressed audio, where the superiority of uncompressed or losslessly compressed audio has been proven over and over by measurement, the audiophiles are once again being taken to task. My question to you, Mr. Nonreality, is why is this happening? Audiophiles are criticized for not believing in measurements but then when they do believe in measurements they are laughed at? After all, along with double blind testing, measurements are the twin pillars of the objectivist's own dogma. So what gives? -- ralphpnj Lock, Stock and Two Smoking Barrels - Snatch - The Transporter - Transporter 2 'Last.fm' (http://www.last.fm/user/jazzfann/) ralphpnj's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10827 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=50937 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] The Future Is LAME: The Truth About MP3 ...LAME = Lame ain't an Mp3 Encoder
ralphpnj;328524 Wrote: Sorry to say that the article appeared in the July/August 2007 issue. I take your comment to mean that the audiophiles would be all up in arms about over this article. After all the article is filled with transgressions against the standard audiophile dogma: lossy compressed audio sounding better than full resolution audio and losslessly compressed audio, and several mentions of double blind testing. Let me throw the ball back into your court. Audiophiles are often derided for not believing in measurements, two classic examples of this are 1) the love of analog over digital since on paper and via test measurements digital as some very clear advantages over analog (signal to noise ratio, no generational losses, etc) and 2) the love of tube electronics when solid state electronics have much better test measurements. Now in the case of audiophiles preferring uncompressed or losslessly compressed audio over lossy compressed audio, where the superiority of uncompressed or losslessly compressed audio has been proven over and over by measurement, the audiophiles are once again being taken to task. My question to you, Mr. Nonreality, is why is this happening? Audiophiles are criticized for not believing in measurements but then when they do believe in measurements they are laughed at? After all, along with double blind testing, measurements are the twin pillars of the objectivist's own dogma. So what gives?My point was in the reaction not the reality of whether this article was true or not. There was not a discussion of the article just deriding comments about it and the author and by default the OP. I believe my comments are accurate from the start. -- Nonreality -IF THE RULE YOU FOLLOWED BROUGHT YOU TO THIS, OF WHAT USE IS THE RULE.- HTTP://www.last.fm/user/nonreality Nonreality's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=15723 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=50937 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] The Future Is LAME: The Truth About MP3 ...LAME = Lame ain't an Mp3 Encoder
If we accept that a LAME-encoded MP3 can be proven to sound better than the source, then this means the MP3 sounds DIFFERENT than the source. And any case where an MP3 sounds different from the source would be considered a bug by the LAME developers, and they would attempt to fix it. So even if we accept that the current version of LAME sounds better than the source material to a certain subset of users, we can rest assured that this will be fixed in the next release. Phew, apocalypse averted! ;) -- CatBus CatBus's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7461 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=50937 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] The Future Is LAME: The Truth About MP3 ...LAME = Lame ain't an Mp3 Encoder
So if you took the CD, encoded using LAME then convert back to another CD, it sounds better... So if you took that CD, converted to MP3 and back to WAV on CD it gets even better... And on and on and on :-) -- RichardL RichardL's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=16586 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=50937 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] The Future Is LAME: The Truth About MP3 ...LAME = Lame ain't an Mp3 Encoder
connorml;327940 Wrote: Hello, here is an interesting article. http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue32/lame.htm Greetings Connorml yet again, someone fails to distinguish between different and better...and the world turns. Que Sera, Sera. I mean it's blindingly obvious isn't it? - on the one hand we are told that we need 24/96 or 24/192 to get (close to) that vinyl feel (chortle) and then on the other hand we are told that throwing away information makes things sound better. Ho hum. What next? - 64kBps is a great improvement on 320? - Bring back wire recorders and wax cylinders? rgh! -- Phil Leigh You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it ain't what you'd call minimal...SB3+Stontronics PSU - Altmann JISCO/UPCI - TACT RCS 2.2X with Good Vibrations S/W - MF X-DAC V3/X-PSU/X-10 buffer (Audiocomm full mods)- Linn 5103 - Linn Aktiv 5.1 system (6x LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Townsend Supertweeters, Kimber Chord cables Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=50937 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] The Future Is LAME: The Truth About MP3 ...LAME = Lame ain't an Mp3 Encoder
Ok getting ready to duck. This is just an idea. Could it be possible that of the stuff that Lame throws out is something that we find unpleasant but are not aware of on a conscious level? -- Nonreality -IF THE RULE YOU FOLLOWED BROUGHT YOU TO THIS, OF WHAT USE IS THE RULE.- HTTP://www.last.fm/user/nonreality Nonreality's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=15723 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=50937 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] The Future Is LAME: The Truth About MP3 ...LAME = Lame ain't an Mp3 Encoder
Nonreality;328759 Wrote: Ok getting ready to duck. This is just an idea. Could it be possible that of the stuff that Lame throws out is something that we find unpleasant but are not aware of on a conscious level?Theoretically it could have been possible. In practice, it's not the case. At least, it's not the case with the music I tend to listen to, and it's not the case listening through LAME MP3 320 (even using slow, high quality algorithm) into the rest of my hifi system. But it's possible that someone actually -may- find that the encoded result is better through the rest of his audio gear. In such a case, something has to be changed : it is an abnormal situation, and it simply means the person's system choices are inadequate to his taste, habits and expectations. Imho. -- Themis SB3 - Denon 3808 - Sonus Faber Grand Piano Domus Themis's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=14700 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=50937 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] The Future Is LAME: The Truth About MP3 ...LAME = Lame ain't an Mp3 Encoder
Phil Leigh;328693 Wrote: Bring back wire recorders and wax cylinders? rgh! Now hold on a minute, there! I happen to own an Edison Standard Model B cylinder record player that I rebuilt to full functionality. If you haven't heard one you can't know how pure an experience it is! The recording process was 100% acoustic. The 100% acoustic playback is on a constant linear velocity cylinder meaning there will be no FM of the background noise as the cylinder spins. Engineering is about compromises- making things almost as good but cheaper. ALL audio reproduction systems since the Edison cylinder have been attempts to make music playback almost as good but cheaper. First there was the introduction of constant angular velocity discs, then they added electronics to the recording process, then to the playback process, then transistors replaced tubes, then CDs replaced discs and (ugh!) tapes and everything went digital. If you really want to be shocked, play a recording on your CD player then play the same on a cylinder player. There is NO contest, the cylinder wins hands-down. TD -- tyler_durden tyler_durden's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2701 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=50937 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] The Future Is LAME: The Truth About MP3 ...LAME = Lame ain't an Mp3 Encoder
Over here a serious, busy mp3 problem sample finder has made an interesting comment: Quote: For some reason some of sound on the drum snare at 2:54 is gone, giving it a cleaner sound. Which gave me the impression that file B was lossy. http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=65061 This of cause is a special case and not shows how mp3 in general is perceived. It only shows that mp3 encoding may change this perception differing from the original in a way someone can think it is better. -- Wombat Transporter - Avantgarde based monoblocks - self-made speakers Wombat's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4113 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=50937 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] The Future Is LAME: The Truth About MP3 ...LAME = Lame ain't an Mp3 Encoder
Perhaps it's on April's issue of Positive Feedback ? :D -- Themis SB3 - Denon 3808 - Sonus Faber Grand Piano Domus Themis's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=14700 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=50937 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
[SlimDevices: Audiophiles] The Future Is LAME: The Truth About MP3 ...LAME = Lame ain't an Mp3 Encoder
Hello, here is an interesting article. http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue32/lame.htm Greetings Connorml -- connorml Reduce to the max! Transporter -- Sommer Cable Epilogue (XLR) -- ME-Geithain RL 922k SqueezeCenter 7.2 - 22244 | Firmware: 56 connorml's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=11141 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=50937 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] The Future Is LAME: The Truth About MP3 ...LAME = Lame ain't an Mp3 Encoder
Discussed already see http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=36638 -- bpa bpa's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=1806 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=50937 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] The Future Is LAME: The Truth About MP3 ...LAME = Lame ain't an Mp3 Encoder
connorml;327940 Wrote: Hello, here is an interesting article. http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue32/lame.htm Greetings ConnormlInteresting reading. I'll have to finish it later but thanks for posting it. Regardless if it had been discussed before, I would never had found it. I'm sure the discussion will be about even if it sounds better it's not accurate and the usual stuff. Anything about mp3's sounding good usually pisses off a lot of the experts. -- Nonreality -IF THE RULE YOU FOLLOWED BROUGHT YOU TO THIS, OF WHAT USE IS THE RULE.- HTTP://www.last.fm/user/nonreality Nonreality's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=15723 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=50937 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] The Future Is LAME: The Truth About MP3 ...LAME = Lame ain't an Mp3 Encoder
In the world of high-end audio, being unique and special is what it takes to sell a product or to sell your opinions. The author of the article has found his uniqueness by making claims counter to all logic and to all other wanna-be audiophile gurus that a lossy codec actually improves sound. That's called marketing. He has found his thing and he'll stick to it, hoping it will propel him to the top of the audiophile dung heap. The author of LAME even tells him how to test his proven idea- double-blind, but we all know how most audiophiles feel about that subject! It's no wonder a rag called Positive Feedback publishes screwy stuff. They're stuck in a loop and feeding back their own nonsense. Expect wild oscillations and lots of annoying noise! I want my 7 minutes back that I wasted reading that dumb article. TD -- tyler_durden tyler_durden's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2701 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=50937 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] The Future Is LAME: The Truth About MP3 ...LAME = Lame ain't an Mp3 Encoder
If the author -really- believes what he's claiming, then he should objectively change his listening equipment to something that fits batter his taste. And stop torturing the initial recorded material and wasting our time. ;) -- Themis SB3 - Denon 3808 - Sonus Faber Grand Piano Domus Themis's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=14700 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=50937 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] The Future Is LAME: The Truth About MP3 ...LAME = Lame ain't an Mp3 Encoder
And off we go! -- Nonreality -IF THE RULE YOU FOLLOWED BROUGHT YOU TO THIS, OF WHAT USE IS THE RULE.- HTTP://www.last.fm/user/nonreality Nonreality's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=15723 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=50937 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] The Future Is LAME: The Truth About MP3 ...LAME = Lame ain't an Mp3 Encoder
tyler_durden;328018 Wrote: In the world of high-end audio, being unique and special is what it takes to sell a product or to sell your opinions. The author of the article has found his uniqueness by making claims counter to all logic and to all other wanna-be audiophile gurus that a lossy codec actually improves sound. That's called marketing. He has found his thing and he'll stick to it, hoping it will propel him to the top of the audiophile dung heap. The author of LAME even tells him how to test his proven idea- double-blind, but we all know how most audiophiles feel about that subject! It's no wonder a rag called Positive Feedback publishes screwy stuff. They're stuck in a loop and feeding back their own nonsense. Expect wild oscillations and lots of annoying noise! I want my 7 minutes back that I wasted reading that dumb article. Lemme guess, part II of this saga will be that it isn't the LAME coder that makes the improvement, it's the program used to convert the mp3 back to .wav, or the CD burning software that converts the .wav to cda, or the CDROM drive he uses to burn the cda to CD, or it will be some specific brand of CDROM blank from a specific manufacturing lot number... The BS piles up so fast you need wings to stay above it. TD Tyler, I'm a bit disappointed in you. I've read your posts before and thought you would have a bit of fun with this. It was perfect for the turning of the screw but I imagine with the economy, soap has been affected too. But in fairness I'll give you back 5 minutes and that's all my friend. -- Nonreality -IF THE RULE YOU FOLLOWED BROUGHT YOU TO THIS, OF WHAT USE IS THE RULE.- HTTP://www.last.fm/user/nonreality Nonreality's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=15723 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=50937 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
