Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Attenuators-recommendations
There is a writeup on all this in the Wiki. For attenutators for use in direct power amp connection, see the 'Connect to Power Amp' (http://wiki.slimdevices.com/index.cgi?ConnectToPowerAmp) wiki page. It also covers calculating the attenuation you need. I have a pair of GoldenJacks on my SB3 and use the built-in attenuation of the Transporter. -- Eric Carroll Transporter-Bryston 3B SST-Paradigm Reference Studio 60 v.4 SB3-Rotel RB890-BW Matrix 805 SB3-Krell Showcase-Bel Canto EVo6 GenII x2-Paradigm Signature S8/C1/C5/BD 500 ReadyNAS NV+ Eric Carroll's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9293 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=42698 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Attenuators-recommendations
rydenfan;271268 Wrote: Wow, this is kind of dissapointing news. My TP from Dan is arriving tomorrow and I cannot believe I will not be able to fully enjoy it :( I guess I will have to do a frantic search to try and find an XLR pair as fast as possible. This sucks... It depends on the sensitivity of the amp. See the wiki page created some time ago: 'Direct Connecting to a Power Amp' (http://wiki.slimdevices.com/index.cgi?ConnectToPowerAmp). There is a section on attenuators which includes XLR options. If your runs are short and you have no ground loops you can use the RCA built-in attenuation on the Transporter. -- Eric Carroll Transporter-Bryston 3B SST-Paradigm Reference Studio 60 v.4 SB3-Rotel RB890-BW Matrix 805 SB3-Krell Showcase-Bel Canto EVo6 GenII x2-Paradigm Signature S8/C1/C5/BD 500 ReadyNAS NV+ Eric Carroll's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=9293 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=42698 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Attenuators-recommendations
I've started using the Rothwell RCA attenuators recently (a custom order which I've measured at 5.5db attenuation). Just to add a bit of balance (or be difficult) I'm going to disagree with some others' opinions and say they sound fine. Before anyone throws my words back at me, no I haven't done a blind test :-) Of course I believe these gizmos are giving me some extra dynamic range in a particular set up that would benefit from it, and I expect the distortion from a passive resistor of adequate quality to be insignificant. Such preconceptions might make me biased. But perhaps others are biased too if they expect degradation? :-) Of course it depends on whether your system needs it or not, resolution of components, my deafness etc...so YMMV. If my long term impressions change I will of course post. Darren -- darrenyeats SB3 / Inguz - Krell KAV-300i (pre bypass) - PMC AB-1 Dell laptop - JVC UX-C30 mini system darrenyeats's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=10799 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=42698 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Attenuators-recommendations
darrenyeats;273050 Wrote: I've started using the Rothwell RCA attenuators recently (a custom order which I've measured at 5.5db attenuation). Just to add a bit of balance (or be difficult) I'm going to disagree with some others' opinions and say they sound fine. Before anyone throws my words back at me, no I haven't done a blind test :-) Of course I believe these gizmos are giving me some extra dynamic range in a particular set up that would benefit from it, and I expect the distortion from a passive resistor of adequate quality to be insignificant. Such preconceptions might make me biased. But perhaps others are biased too if they expect degradation? :-) Of course it depends on whether your system needs it or not, resolution of components, my deafness etc...so YMMV. If my long term impressions change I will of course post. Darren And so they they should Darren! they are only a good quality resistor after all - just how much damage do people really think that can do to a line-level signal? -- Phil Leigh You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it ain't what you'd call minimal...SB3+Stontronics PSU - Altmann JISCO/UPCI - TACT RCS 2.2X with Good Vibrations S/W - MF X-DAC V3/X-PSU/X-10 buffer (Audiocomm full mods)- Linn 5103 - Linn Aktiv 5.1 system (6x LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Townsend Supertweeters, Kimber Chord cables Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=42698 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Attenuators-recommendations
HalleysComet;271444 Wrote: If you have to throttle it way back, then you're potentially throwing away a lot of bits Depends on your definition of a lot of bits. The TP has 24 bit DACs, but let's be realistic and assume they are only linear for 22 bits. If your source material is from 16 bit CDs, then you can afford to use digital attenuation down to -36dB before you lose any bits of resolution at all. -- cliveb Transporter - ATC SCM100A cliveb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=348 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=42698 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Attenuators-recommendations
cliveb wrote: The TP has 24 bit DACs, but let's be realistic and assume they are only linear for 22 bits. Why? What's wrong with the other two? R. ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Attenuators-recommendations
Robin Bowes;271511 Wrote: cliveb wrote: The TP has 24 bit DACs, but let's be realistic and assume they are only linear for 22 bits. Why? What's wrong with the other two? R. Thermal noise in circuitry means that it's pretty much impossible to build a genuinely linear 24 bit DAC (short of using something like liquid nitrogen cooling). The bottom few bits are effectively noise, so if you shift your 16 bit samples down by 8 bits (ie. down to the 9th - 24th bits in the DAC), you'll lose the bottom couple in that noise. -- cliveb Transporter - ATC SCM100A cliveb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=348 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=42698 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Attenuators-recommendations
My Modwright Transporter is due to arrive tomorrow. Are you guys saying that I cannot run it directly to my amp with an attenuator? -- rydenfan rydenfan's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=15335 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=42698 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Attenuators-recommendations
Ryden. I have a Modwright TP also. I run it directly into my power amps w/no pre. Sound quality is teriffic that way. However, w/no attenuators (yet), on many discs the volume at even its lowest level is too loud for casual listening. Thus, I have been shying away from cds recorded at a high volume (typically recent recordings). The attenuators supposedly will solve that problem, but I have not received them from Endler yet. So, short answer, TP into power w/no pre works w/o attenuators, but not perfectly. Attenuators recommended. -- Shredder Shredder's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=11380 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=42698 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Attenuators-recommendations
Shredder;271266 Wrote: Ryden. I have a Modwright TP also. I run it directly into my power amps w/no pre. Sound quality is teriffic that way. However, w/no attenuators (yet), on many discs the volume at even its lowest level is too loud for casual listening. Thus, I have been shying away from cds recorded at a high volume (typically recent recordings). The attenuators supposedly will solve that problem, but I have not received them from Endler yet. So, short answer, TP into power w/no pre works w/o attenuators, but not perfectly. Attenuators recommended. Wow, this is kind of dissapointing news. My TP from Dan is arriving tomorrow and I cannot believe I will not be able to fully enjoy it :( I guess I will have to do a frantic search to try and find an XLR pair as fast as possible. This sucks... -- rydenfan rydenfan's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=15335 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=42698 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Attenuators-recommendations
I ordered Endlers. I don't expect to receive them for another month. There are other options mentioned in this and a couple of other posts. -- Shredder Shredder's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=11380 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=42698 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Attenuators-recommendations
According to the Transporter owner's manual it has a built-in attenuator for the balanced outputs. Has anybody tried this? This would be perfect for me. -- rydenfan rydenfan's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=15335 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=42698 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Attenuators-recommendations
rydenfan wrote: According to the Transporter owner's manual it has a built-in attenuator for the balanced outputs. Has anybody tried this? This would be perfect for me. It has a built-in attenuator for the *un*-balanced outputs. R. ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Attenuators-recommendations
Do you have any recommendations of where to get a nice XLR set? Seems like Endler is not even accepting orders right now. -- rydenfan rydenfan's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=15335 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=42698 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Attenuators-recommendations
Yup, the built in attenuators pnly work w/unbalanced outputs. -- Shredder Shredder's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=11380 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=42698 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Attenuators-recommendations
rydenfan;271268 Wrote: Wow, this is kind of dissapointing news. My TP from Dan is arriving tomorrow and I cannot believe I will not be able to fully enjoy it :( I guess I will have to do a frantic search to try and find an XLR pair as fast as possible. This sucks... It's also a function of the sensitivity of your power amps. At the moment, I'm running my ModWright TP directly into a pair of tube amps as I try it out in different configurations with different equipment in my home. My experience won't be completely relevant to you since I'm using the unbalanced connection. Nevertheless, at maximum volume it's about as loud as I ever listen... just below Headbanger level, reserved for certain metal recordings ;-) Anyway, I definitely don't have a problem with it being too loud, and there's lots of useful range using the built-in digital volume control. I'd recommend that you try it first before ordering attenuators. It's desirable to keep the volume control near the top of its range, which is the case in my current application. If you have to throttle it way back, then you're potentially throwing away a lot of bits, which is when you'll want an attenuator. But it MAY not be necessary. By the way, I think you'll love it! I'm certainly enjoying mine. Frank -- HalleysComet HalleysComet's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=14590 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=42698 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Attenuators-recommendations
rydenfan;271284 Wrote: Do you have any recommendations of where to get a nice XLR set? Seems like Endler is not even accepting orders right now. An alternative source if you are DIY is KK Audio. See this page on the bottom of the page: http://www.kandkaudio.com/linestage.html Very nice quality, and/or you can use your own favorite brand/type of boutique resistors if you like. HTH! Frank -- HalleysComet HalleysComet's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=14590 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=42698 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Attenuators-recommendations
mr_bill;270781 Wrote: Hi x, Did you receive your Endler attenuators yet? Thanks, Bill Greetings Bill, They are supposed to arrive tomorrow. I also have a Luminous Audio Axiom Mono XLR preamp on loan. I'll chime in with impressions on the Axiom Mono XLR vs. Endlers tomorrow. If I forget, feel free to PM me =) -- xand1x Onkyo SE-90 -- Slim Devices Transporter (Black) -- First Watt F1 -- AKG K1000 xand1x's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=14838 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=42698 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Attenuators-recommendations
xand1x;263020 Wrote: I'm in the exact same scenario you are in mr_bill. I have Endler's on order and hopefully they'll arrive soon. As soon as I get them i'll let you know if there is an audible difference between using the digital volume control in the upper vs lower registers. I'm sure Phil and a few of the others around here will reply soon with an answer though! Hi x, Did you receive your Endler attenuators yet? Thanks, Bill -- mr_bill mr_bill's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=6737 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=42698 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Attenuators-recommendations
mr_bill;270781 Wrote: Hi x, Did you receive your Endler attenuators yet? Thanks, Bill I went to Endler's sight and he is backed up and not taking orders for awhile. I.m glad I got mine when I did. -- tomjtx tomjtx's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7449 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=42698 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Attenuators-recommendations
Unfortunately the Endlers do take time. I think it was about 6 weeks to get mine. But it is worth the wait. -- tomjtx tomjtx's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7449 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=42698 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Attenuators-recommendations
Hm. I could really use mine soon. Things are a bit loud -- Shredder Shredder's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=11380 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=42698 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Attenuators-recommendations
Here's another company that makes an attenuator that is cheaper than the Endler: http://www.wright-sound.com/scripts/prodView.asp?idproduct=25 I haven't compared it to other attenuators so I don't know about its relative performance but it works well for me when comparing my system with and without it. It does NOT have different levels to choose from - standard one attenuates the input signal 10x. -- sheppard sheppard's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=15260 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=42698 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Attenuators-recommendations
tomjtx;263633 Wrote: Unfortunately the Endlers do take time. I think it was about 6 weeks to get mine. But it is worth the wait. Crikey, you could learn to solder properly and do it yourself in less time than that :-) -- cliveb Transporter - ATC SCM100A cliveb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=348 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=42698 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Attenuators-recommendations
NewBuyer;263222 Wrote: The Endlers sound very significantly better than the Rothwells. Tried them both, and the difference is huge. That's nice to know, I went with the Endler's w/o a comparison. Thanks for doing the work for me :-) -- tomjtx tomjtx's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7449 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=42698 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Attenuators-recommendations
Based on the apparent consensu recommendation, I also went w/the Endlers. In addition to sound quality, I like the step function. Thanks for the help. -- Shredder Shredder's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=11380 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=42698 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Attenuators-recommendations
Shredder;263335 Wrote: Based on the apparent consensu recommendation, I also went w/the Endlers. In addition to sound quality, I like the step function. Thanks for the help. Hey did you receive them as yet? If not I think Scott's a bit backed up. I've been waiting for around a month for mine! -- xand1x Onkyo SE-90 -- Slim Devices Transporter (Black) -- First Watt F1 -- AKG K1000 xand1x's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=14838 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=42698 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Attenuators-recommendations
I just ordered them Saturday. A month? -- Shredder Shredder's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=11380 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=42698 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Attenuators-recommendations
Shredder;263455 Wrote: I just ordered them Saturday. A month? Yeah I placed my order on December 31st. Not quite a month yet but coming soon! -- xand1x Onkyo SE-90 -- Slim Devices Transporter (Black) -- First Watt F1 -- AKG K1000 xand1x's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=14838 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=42698 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Attenuators-recommendations
The noise floor of a recording is going to be determined ultimately by the microphones used to make it - and most typical professional studio mics struggle to attain a s/n ratio of 80dB... -- Phil Leigh You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it ain't what you'd call minimal...SB3+Stontronics PSU - Altmann JISCO/UPCI - TACT RCS 2.2X with Good Vibrations S/W - MF X-DAC V3/X-PSU/X-10 buffer (Audiocomm full mods)- Linn 5103 - Linn Aktiv 5.1 system (6x LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Townsend Supertweeters, Kimber Chord cables Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=42698 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Attenuators-recommendations
So what's the verdict here? It seems to get more confusing all the time. 1. Transporter straight into amps? 2. Transporter into Endler Attenuators? 3. Transporter into higher quality preamp with Transporter set to fixed output? (all xlr if possible) Thanks, Bill -- mr_bill mr_bill's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=6737 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=42698 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Attenuators-recommendations
Before spending any money, why don't you just try TP-Amp via XLR and use the volume control on the TP? I doubt you'll be unhappy. -- Phil Leigh You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it ain't what you'd call minimal...SB3+Stontronics PSU - Altmann JISCO/UPCI - TACT RCS 2.2X with Good Vibrations S/W - MF X-DAC V3/X-PSU/X-10 buffer (Audiocomm full mods)- Linn 5103 - Linn Aktiv 5.1 system (6x LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Townsend Supertweeters, Kimber Chord cables Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=42698 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Attenuators-recommendations
Phil Leigh;262925 Wrote: The noise floor of a recording is going to be determined ultimately by the microphones used to make it - and most typical professional studio mics struggle to attain a s/n ratio of 80dB... As well as the ambient noise in the recording venue. For clasical recording sessions they often turn off the HVAC during the recording takes to cut down the mechanical rumble of the fans, however when recording before an audience this can be a problem. IIRC, in the liner notes of one recording done in a cathedral in the middle of the city, they did it at 3AM so there would be less traffic rumble. Recordings can theoretically have a wider total window of dynamic range if they are mixed so that the overall system gain at the studio is adjusted as the recording progresses. But it is rare to see even much above 60 dB S/N in a popular or jazz recording. -- Timothy Stockman Timothy Stockman's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=8867 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=42698 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Attenuators-recommendations
Phil Leigh;262999 Wrote: Before spending any money, why don't you just try TP-Amp via XLR and use the volume control on the TP? I doubt you'll be unhappy. That's what I'm doing now - but it gets pretty loud at -20 to -25db on the volume scale. That's what is prompting my concern. Am I losing too much resolution with my scenario? I should have posted that originally. Thanks, Bill -- mr_bill mr_bill's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=6737 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=42698 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Attenuators-recommendations
mr_bill;263006 Wrote: That's what I'm doing now - but it gets pretty loud at -20 to -25db on the volume scale. That's what is prompting my concern. Am I losing too much resolution with my scenario? I should have posted that originally. Thanks, Bill I'm in the exact same scenario you are in mr_bill. I have Endler's on order and hopefully they'll arrive soon. As soon as I get them i'll let you know if there is an audible difference between using the digital volume control in the upper vs lower registers. I'm sure Phil and a few of the others around here will reply soon with an answer though! -- xand1x Onkyo SE-90 -- Slim Devices Transporter (Black) -- First Watt F1 -- AKG K1000 xand1x's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=14838 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=42698 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Attenuators-recommendations
xand1x;263020 Wrote: I'm in the exact same scenario you are in mr_bill. I have Endler's on order and hopefully they'll arrive soon. As soon as I get them i'll let you know if there is an audible difference between using the digital volume control in the upper vs lower registers. I'm sure Phil and a few of the others around here will reply soon with an answer though! Thanks xand1x. I'll be interested to hear your results. Are you using the xlr outputs (that's what I'm guessing). I'm thinking of the Endler shotgun xlr 4k pair for $140. I think this may be all I need, but am wondering what impact they will have on the sound and is suing the upper portion of the volume scale makes a difference. -- mr_bill mr_bill's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=6737 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=42698 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Attenuators-recommendations
Phil Leigh;262925 Wrote: The noise floor of a recording is going to be determined ultimately by the microphones used to make it - and most typical professional studio mics struggle to attain a s/n ratio of 80dB... In the recent comparison between 44.1/16 and SACD, the researchers found that for almost all SACDs the noise floor was higher than -96dB, which made distinguishing between the two standards impossible even by cranking the volume during quiet passages. They did find a few (or maybe only one?) SACDs with noise floor below -96dB, and for those the difference could be made audible that way (and only that way). -- opaqueice opaqueice's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4234 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=42698 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Attenuators-recommendations
Roy Gregory reviewed the unbalanced Rothwell attentuators in HiFi+, and found them to be excellent. The balanced ones cost GBP 69, which is about $140 dollars I guess. Shop here: http://www.rothwellaudioproducts.co.uk/erol.html -- bigfool1956 David Ayers Music is what counts, hifi just helps us enjoy it more bigfool1956's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=13782 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=42698 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Attenuators-recommendations
mr_bill;262997 Wrote: I am using Transporter direct to amp with digital volume control - but it gets pretty loud at -20 to -25db on the volume scale. That's what is prompting my concern. Am I losing too much resolution with my scenario? Even if you're not losing resolution or noticing the drop in SNR the more important question is can your speakers handle the full scale signal should the digital volume control accidentally get bumped. If you get an attenuator that allows the level of volume you're hearing at -20dB to be heard at 0dB then you'll have peace-of-mind about all things considered. -- Skunk http://www.last.fm/user/TheSkunk/ Skunk's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2685 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=42698 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Attenuators-recommendations
bigfool1956;263032 Wrote: Roy Gregory reviewed the unbalanced Rothwell attentuators in HiFi+...[/url] The Endlers sound very significantly better than the Rothwells. Tried them both, and the difference is huge. -- NewBuyer NewBuyer's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7862 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=42698 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Attenuators-recommendations
$600? Good God. -- Shredder Shredder's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=11380 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=42698 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Attenuators-recommendations
You probably don't need very many settings. I've got my SB3 going into a Benchmark DAC1, which has an analogue volume control. I do adjust it, but pretty rarely, and I think three or four fixed settings would actually be enough (I use the SB digital volume control for fine adjustments). Of course the trick is knowing which settings you'll need... but you can find that out - just decide (using the digital volume) what the loudest and softest max settings are that you might want. Then convert that to dB (I think the TP volume control is .5dB per tick - i.e. 99 is .5 dB below 100 - but you should verify that) and you'll know how much attenuation you'll need. -- opaqueice opaqueice's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4234 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=42698 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Attenuators-recommendations
Oh for goodness sake - nobody needs to pay $600 for some metal film resistors! -- Phil Leigh You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it ain't what you'd call minimal...SB3+Stontronics PSU - Altmann JISCO/UPCI - TACT RCS 2.2X with Good Vibrations S/W - MF X-DAC V3/X-PSU/X-10 buffer (Audiocomm full mods)- Linn 5103 - Linn Aktiv 5.1 system (6x LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Townsend Supertweeters, Kimber Chord cables Phil Leigh's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=85 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=42698 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Attenuators-recommendations
jt25741 wrote: But if you have or plan to have true 24 bit recordings, you may not want to digitally attenuate and start truncating real data bits to preserve fidelity at all listening levels. This is impossible. As soon as you attenuate the signal, you lose low order bits. About one bit per 6dB. Even if you had 24 bits of signal (which is unlikely) when you turn it down by 12dB, you have no more than 22 bits of information. You can use a digital attenuator, or a voltage divider or goat cheese, the information is lost. ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Attenuators-recommendations
Pat Farrell;262753 Wrote: jt25741 wrote: But if you have or plan to have true 24 bit recordings, you may not want to digitally attenuate and start truncating real data bits to preserve fidelity at all listening levels. This is impossible. As soon as you attenuate the signal, you lose low order bits. About one bit per 6dB. Even if you had 24 bits of signal (which is unlikely) when you turn it down by 12dB, you have no more than 22 bits of information. You can use a digital attenuator, or a voltage divider or goat cheese, the information is lost. There was a not before want to. -- jt25741 SB3-AR Masters Coax - PS Audio DLIII - Cardas Golden Reference XLR - Sim Audio P-5 - Cardas Golden Reference XLR - Sim Audio W-5 - Cardas Golden Reference Hi-Mid,PS Audio Xstream Plus Low- Magnepan 3.6R jt25741's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=8645 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=42698 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Attenuators-recommendations
jt25741 wrote: Pat Farrell;262753 Wrote: jt25741 wrote: But if you have or plan to have true 24 bit recordings, you may not want to digitally attenuate and start truncating real data bits to preserve fidelity at all listening levels. This is impossible. As soon as you attenuate the signal, you lose low order bits. About one bit per 6dB. Even if you had 24 bits of signal (which is unlikely) when you turn it down by 12dB, you have no more than 22 bits of information. You can use a digital attenuator, or a voltage divider or goat cheese, the information is lost. There was a not before want to. it makes zero difference if you use digital or analogue attenuation. You lose signal when you cut the gain. In simple terms, turn down the volume, lose fidelity. -- Pat Farrell http://www.pfarrell.com/ ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Attenuators-recommendations
Phil Leigh;262733 Wrote: Oh for goodness sake - nobody needs to pay $600 for some metal film resistors! Probably true. The single ended versions are actually quite popular in some audiophile circles over the years -- they are the cheaper ones (only about $400 :). However, they just don't use any metal-film resistors see the parts list at the bottom... you can build them yourself and save over half off that number at Percy by buying the raw parts. The attenuator in my pre-amp is a shunt-to ground single resistor design -- I think it contibutes to the clarity across different volume levels. For the Transporter, I would agree that with 16 bit recordings, the 8 bits of digital attenuation you get after conversion to 24 would afford you the need for only a few steps in a attenuator.Something like this, with many steps would be overkill. But if you have or plan to have true 24 bit recordings, you may not want to digitally attenuate and start truncating real data bits to preserve fidelity at all listening levels. -- jt25741 SB3-AR Masters Coax - PS Audio DLIII - Cardas Golden Reference XLR - Sim Audio P-5 - Cardas Golden Reference XLR - Sim Audio W-5 - Cardas Golden Reference Hi-Mid,PS Audio Xstream Plus Low- Magnepan 3.6R jt25741's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=8645 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=42698 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Attenuators-recommendations
Pat Farrell;262763 Wrote: jt25741 wrote: Pat Farrell;262753 Wrote: jt25741 wrote: But if you have or plan to have true 24 bit recordings, you may not want to digitally attenuate and start truncating real data bits to preserve fidelity at all listening levels. This is impossible. As soon as you attenuate the signal, you lose low order bits. About one bit per 6dB. Even if you had 24 bits of signal (which is unlikely) when you turn it down by 12dB, you have no more than 22 bits of information. You can use a digital attenuator, or a voltage divider or goat cheese, the information is lost. There was a not before want to. it makes zero difference if you use digital or analogue attenuation. You lose signal when you cut the gain. In simple terms, turn down the volume, lose fidelity. -- Pat Farrell http://www.pfarrell.com/ I guess more clarity is in order. Case 1: For 16 bit recordings, 8 bits of 0 are padded in the TP/SB to produce a 24 bit word. These extra bits have no information, but shift the applitude up by 8 bits of depth. These are 0's -- so you can truncate them with digital attenuation to the point where you are at the original 16 without any possibility of losing digital music information. case 2) The point made earlier, is if you truly had a 24 bit recording, you cannot do that without the possibility of degrading the digital signal. The fact that noise floor in the analog domain is much higher than needed to reproduce 24 bits is another matter -- and important as well. But regardless the information is gone in this case. I do think we are saying the same thing.. -- jt25741 SB3-AR Masters Coax - PS Audio DLIII - Cardas Golden Reference XLR - Sim Audio P-5 - Cardas Golden Reference XLR - Sim Audio W-5 - Cardas Golden Reference Hi-Mid,PS Audio Xstream Plus Low- Magnepan 3.6R jt25741's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=8645 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=42698 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Attenuators-recommendations
jt25741 wrote: case 2) The point made earlier, is if you truly had a 24 bit recording, you cannot do that without the possibility of degrading the digital signal. The fact that noise floor in the analog domain is much higher than needed to reproduce 24 bits is another matter -- and important as well. But regardless the information is gone in this case. I do think we are saying the same thing.. OK, the fact is that the noise floor in the analog chain in the recording is higher than what you can record in 24 bits, so is there are no true 24 recordings. As long as we agree, I'm happy -- Pat Farrell http://www.pfarrell.com/ ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Attenuators-recommendations
jt25741;262768 Wrote: The fact that noise floor in the analog domain is much higher than needed to reproduce 24 bits is another matter -- and important as well. But regardless the information is gone in this case. I don't think it's another matter - it makes this a moot point (unless I'm missing something). When you digitally attenuate, you take the 24 bit word and reduce it by some factor. When you do that there will usually be a rounding error. But the rounding error will only be in the last bit of the word, so at worst, the distortion it introduces is an error in the 24th bit, or -144dB (and actually a good rounding algorithm could reduce this to -150dB). The noise floor of the TP is something like -120 or -130 dB, making a change in the 24th bit totally inaudible. Conclusion: quality loss from digital attentuation is irrelevant and a myth (at least for the TP and the SB3). Fidelity is reduced when the volume goes down only because of the standard decrease in signal/noise, just as it would with an analogue volume control with the same noise floor. -- opaqueice opaqueice's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=4234 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=42698 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Attenuators-recommendations
Shredder;262433 Wrote: Morning. Just got my TP up and running. I am quite pleased. One issue: I am running the TP straight into my amps w/no pre and balanced ics. The volume is way too loud at the lowest levels. In essence, I have no low volume setting. I assume I need attenuators (TP ones won't work because I am using balanced ics). I want to use ones that do not impact the audio quality one way or another (I am happy with the current sound). Which ones do people recommend? I have seen the Rothwell name but know nothing about them. I was wondering if Rothwell is the way to go or whether there is a better option? ALso, is there any way to deal with this issue w/o external attenuators. Thanks in advance. The balanced version of these will be $600 bucks, but they will sound the best :)Or put it another way, they better.Makes for interesting reading nonetheless. http://www.tweakaudio.com/Ultimate%20Attenuators.html -- jt25741 SB3-AR Masters Coax - PS Audio DLIII - Cardas Golden Reference XLR - Sim Audio P-5 - Cardas Golden Reference XLR - Sim Audio W-5 - Cardas Golden Reference Hi-Mid,PS Audio Xstream Plus Low- Magnepan 3.6R jt25741's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=8645 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=42698 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Attenuators-recommendations
I can barely screw in a lightbulb let alone solder an attenuator. -- Shredder Shredder's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=11380 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=42698 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Attenuators-recommendations
I use Scott Endler shotgun 24 stepp balanced att.'s and they work quite well. -- tomjtx tomjtx's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7449 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=42698 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Attenuators-recommendations
cliveb;262490 Wrote: I'm sure the Endler attenuators are very good, but there are alternatives at much lower cost. If you can solder, and your interconnects have XLR plugs, then it's perfectly feasible to insert appropriate resistors to achieve the required attenuation. Total cost: 8 resistors and some solder - about a dollar. (Plus your time, of course). For more details, see http://wiki.slimdevices.com/index.cgi?DIYPassiveAttenuation That would be assuming I have even the minimal skill necessary to solder which, I asure you, would be an incorrect assumption :-) -- tomjtx tomjtx's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7449 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=42698 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Attenuators-recommendations
tomjtx;262440 Wrote: I use Scott Endler shotgun 12 stepp balanced att.'s and they work quite well. I think the 24 step could be overkill. A pair of 12 step balanced will run you 140.00USD Same here, but unbalanced. Got them a couple of years ago, never had a complaint so far. In fact I just needed to attenuate a few dB, so I leave them at one fixed setting, and just use the digital volume control for fine tuning. -- ezkcdude There are 10 kind of people in the world - those who understand binary and those who don't. SHINYMETAL '*Site*' (http://www.ezdiyaudio.com)| '*RSS*' (http://www2.kumc.edu/students/ezamir/rss/ezdiyaudio.xml) |'*Forum*' (http://ezdiyaudio.informe.com) ezkcdude's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=2545 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=42698 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Attenuators-recommendations
tomjtx;262440 Wrote: I use Scott Endler shotgun 12 stepp balanced att.'s and they work quite well. A pair of 12 step balanced will run you 140.00USD I'm sure the Endler attenuators are very good, but there are alternatives at much lower cost. If you can solder, and your interconnects have XLR plugs, then it's perfectly feasible to insert appropriate resistors to achieve the required attenuation. Total cost: 8 resistors and some solder - about a dollar. (Plus your time, of course). For more details, see http://wiki.slimdevices.com/index.cgi?DIYPassiveAttenuation -- cliveb Transporter - ATC SCM100A cliveb's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=348 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=42698 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] Attenuators-recommendations
Shredder;262521 Wrote: I can barely screw in a lightbulb let alone solder an attenuator. I am quite good at getting sodded, however. -- tomjtx tomjtx's Profile: http://forums.slimdevices.com/member.php?userid=7449 View this thread: http://forums.slimdevices.com/showthread.php?t=42698 ___ audiophiles mailing list audiophiles@lists.slimdevices.com http://lists.slimdevices.com/lists/listinfo/audiophiles
