Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] S/PDIF cables should be (a) - =1.5m or (b) as short as possible?

2011-05-10 Thread Phil Leigh

earwaxer9;628211 Wrote: 
 As far as the toslink connector - I cant see how that has anything to do
 with the transmission of the light as long as its lined up properly. My
 DAC will actually pick up the light signal and transmit very good sound
 even before it is fully plugged in! I tried holding the cable a few mm
 from the jack and I still got sound. I have seen gold plated toslink
 connectors. Cant see the point! Its not electrical!

You are missing my point - it's not about the connectors being made of
unobtanium - it's about whether or not they mechanically fit properly -
if not you can get significant transmission loss/reflection/problems.


-- 
Phil Leigh

You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it
ain't what you'd call minimal...
Touch(wired/XP) - Audiolense 3.3/2.0+INGUZ DRC - MF M1 DAC - Linn 5103
- full Aktiv 5.1 system (6x LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5),
Pekin Tuner, Townsend Supertweeters, Blue Jeans Belden Digital,Kimber
8TC Speaker  Chord Signature Plus Interconnect cables
Stax4070+SRM7/II phones
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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] S/PDIF cables should be (a) - =1.5m or (b) as short as possible?

2011-05-03 Thread ajmitchell

Hi

just to note I am using basic (certainly not exotic) quality coaxial to
stream digital output over 3 rooms via the loft for the past 5 years;
probably around 50m with negligible deficit. why not stream over
squeezebox? Well SB doesn't accept digital input eg from a cd player.
The old sonos boxes did this. So i stream from the PC wirelessly but
from sky, CD, sacd etc via spdif. Sound even copes with a
splitter/router box.


-- 
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http://www.last.fm/user/ajmitchell

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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] S/PDIF cables should be (a) - =1.5m or (b) as short as possible?

2011-04-28 Thread earwaxer9

Phil Leigh;604083 Wrote: 
 Darren, you simply have to try both and see which you prefer. There are
 no hard rules, it depends on the DAC.
 
 As for glass vs plastic... for the lengths we are talking about it's
 irrelevant. I've used 5m cables with no drop-out/lock problems.
 
 IMO the most important part of any Toslink is NOT the cable, it's the
 connectors. If they aren't right, you can get significant transmission
 loss.

I have been experimenting a bit with the toslink. I decided to use
toslink  to my subwoffer DAC - some 20 ft from my rig. I started with
coax and switched out a cheap toslink for comparison. Very easy
decision. At least with the MSB Link III, toslink is much better over
that length. That was using an el-cheapo $5 plastic toslink cable. I
recently bought a glass one to replace the plastic. Quite frankly, I
thought the difference was going to be greater. It is better, to the
extent that the bass is better defined, in that, it is quite a bit
easier to tune the sub to the rest of the system. This I have been
struggling with for quite some time. Never really happy with my
crossover frequency and always tweaking the steepness and band of the
crossover. In other words - a much wider sweet spot with the sub. 

As far as the toslink connector - I cant see how that has anything to
do with the transmission of the light as long as its lined up properly.
My DAC will actually pick up the light signal and transmit very good
sound even before it is fully plugged in! I tried holding the cable a
few mm from the jack and I still got sound. I have seen gold plated
toslink connectors. Cant see the point! Its not electrical!


-- 
earwaxer9

System: modified Winsome Labs Mouse, modified Maggie MMG's, Transporter,
HSU sub 12, MSB DAC to 500 watt sub slave amp, JPS labs power cords,
Silver audio interconnect, Audioquest Granite speaker cable.

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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] S/PDIF cables should be (a) - =1.5m or (b) as short as possible?

2011-04-19 Thread JohnSwenson

Actually Steve says it should either be greater than 1.5M or very short
(less than a foot).

ALL the TOSLINK interfaces used by everybody are all made by Toshiba
(hence the TOS part) they only offer a fairly limited range of devices.
The receivers come in low bandwidth and really low bandwidth. They used
to make a much higher bandwidth receiver, but they stopped making them
a few years ago. The transmitters generally have greater bandwidth than
the receivers. 

There actually is a significant difference between glass and plastic.
Plastic is almost always a single fiber which has a much greater
diameter than the wavelength of light used. It behaves like a light
pipe, light rays bounce off the walls with the signal zig-zagging
down the length. On a longer cable you can easily get a significant
differfence in path length between rays that enter the fiber at
different angles. 

A glass one is usually a bundle of very thin glass fibers, the light
doesn't zig-zagg in this arrangement. Rays entering the bundle at
different angles hit different fibers, all of which have a very similar
flight time. 

With short lengths this difference is probably not much of an issue but
for longer connections it could easily be significant. 

John S.


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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] S/PDIF cables should be (a) - =1.5m or (b) as short as possible?

2011-04-16 Thread Curt962

After reading some internet discussion a year or so ago, I compared an
Amazon Basics TOSlink cable (about $8) to a Canare/Neutrik 110ohm
AES/EBU cable in the digital effects loop of my Transporter.I just
wanted to hear the STAGGERING differences for myself.

Over a period of evenings going back and forth...back and forthI
concluded that I heard absolutely nothing different between those two
different conduits.

I concluded that perhaps:   A).   My hearing is terrible.  B) I need a
more resolving system, or C). I had just wasted several evenings of
relaxing listening time making this stupid comparison.

I kept the TOSlink, and put the AES/EBU cable in a box.

YMMV


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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] S/PDIF cables should be (a) - =1.5m or (b) as short as possible?

2011-04-15 Thread JezA

If the length of an s/pdif cable makes a difference to your DAC, don't
buy more s/pdif cables, sell your DAC and buy one that works properly.
Why throw good money after bad?


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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] S/PDIF cables should be (a) - =1.5m or (b) as short as possible?

2011-04-15 Thread darrenyeats

At the risk of getting a reputation for being deaf (!) I've now tried my
coax versus my optical and I couldn't detect any difference, using a
Benchmark DAC1 HDR.

I am using optical for convenience - shorter and I can skip all
discussion of cable-borne noise!

Regards, Darren


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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] S/PDIF cables should be (a) - =1.5m or (b) as short as possible?

2011-04-15 Thread garym

darrenyeats;625481 Wrote: 
 At the risk of getting a reputation for being deaf (!) I've now tried my
 coax versus my optical and I couldn't detect any difference, using a
 Benchmark DAC1 HDR.
 
 I am using optical for convenience - shorter!
 
 Regards, Darren

Understand that if you actually could detect a difference it would more
likely mean that something is broken in your DAC or one of the cables!


-- 
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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] S/PDIF cables should be (a) - =1.5m or (b) as short as possible?

2011-04-14 Thread Kuro

The reason for the =1.5m length has to do with controlling signal
reflection due to impedance discontinuity on the receiving end.  For
example, my TacT 2.2xp has poor internal construction in terms of
impedance control.  A 1.5m cable sounded significantly better than a 1m
cable from my Transporter (stronger, deeper bass, better dynamics, etc).
It is because the longer cable will cause the reflection to travel a
longer distance and it allows the original signal rising edge to
complete the signal transition before the reflection arrives,
preventing interference to the original signal rising edge.  The cable
length is a function of output pulse transformer's pulse rising time,
cable dielectrics and cable inductance.  1.5m is probably on the best
case scenerio.  One can also put a 3db or 6db attenuator on the
receiving end, to reduce the effect on signal reflection.

If the signal receiving gear has well controlled impedance, then little
or no impedance discontinuity occurs.  A shorter cable is preferred in
this case.  It is because longer cable will have a longer signal rising
edge.  Usually, the addition signal delay is 1.4ns/ft.  In general, we
want shorter signal rising edge for better performance.


-- 
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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] S/PDIF cables should be (a) - =1.5m or (b) as short as possible?

2011-02-05 Thread darrenyeats

As I mentioned on the other thread I'm trying a 1.5m coax versus 0.5m
optical. Not sure if the optical is supposed to be (according to
theory) =1.5m or 2.5m or whatever...but I went short anyway. I'm
guessing there aren't mirrors at the ends of the sockets!


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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] S/PDIF cables should be (a) - =1.5m or (b) as short as possible?

2011-01-21 Thread Phil Leigh

darrenyeats;604000 Wrote: 
 It seems the length which every camp might find acceptable is 1.5m.
 
 What about optical cables - is length significant and why? I hear glass
 is better than plastic...any comments?
 
 So, coax versus optical on the SB Touch - does anyone have any
 comments?
 
 Regards, Darren

Darren, you simply have to try both and see which you prefer. There are
no hard rules, it depends on the DAC.

As for glass vs plastic... for the lengths we are talking about it's
irrelevant. I've used 5m cables with no drop-out/lock problems.

IMO the most important part of any Toslink is NOT the cable, it's the
connectors. If they aren't right, you can get significant transmission
loss.


-- 
Phil Leigh

You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it
ain't what you'd call minimal...
Touch(wired/XP) - TACT 2.2X (Linear PSU) + Good Vibrations S/W - MF
Triplethreat(Audiocom full mods) - Linn 5103 - Aktiv 5.1 system (6x
LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Pekin Tuner, Townsend
Supertweeters, Blue Jeans Digital,Kimber Speaker  Chord Interconnect
cables
Kitchen Boom, Outdoors: SB Radio, Harmony One remote for everything.

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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] S/PDIF cables should be (a) - =1.5m or (b) as short as possible?

2011-01-21 Thread Mnyb

Can it not be dependent on the gear you are using some tos transmitter
and recievers are not fantastic they say ?

making the the optical interface having less bandwidth than the
electrical interface that's a pity it has potential to be significantly
faster.

But this info was absorbed trough hifi press :-/ I may be wrong or
this info was correct in the early digital age but things have moved on
and got better.

I often used tos to the cabel-tv box an elegant way to not need antenna
isolators for the hum loop.

It is probably wrong to dismiss it directly try what works best for
you.

OT is hdmi current loops and galvanically isolated ?


-- 
Mnyb


Main hifi: Touch + CIA PS +MeridianG68J MeridianHD621 MeridianG98DH and
assorted amps SiriuS, Classe' Primare and Dynadio speakers, Contour 4
Contour Center, and Contour 1.3SE rear ch. Rel Stadium 3 sub.
Bedroom/Office: Boom
Kitchen: SB3 + powered Fostex PM0.4
Misc use: Radio (with battery)

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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] S/PDIF cables should be (a) - =1.5m or (b) as short as possible?

2011-01-20 Thread darrenyeats

It seems the length which every camp might find acceptable is 1.5m.

What about optical cables - is length significant and why? I hear glass
is better than plastic...any comments?

So, coax versus optical on the SB Touch - does anyone have any
comments?

Regards, Darren


-- 
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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] S/PDIF cables should be (a) - =1.5m or (b) as short as possible?

2011-01-17 Thread cliveb

pski;602916 Wrote: 
 moot
 –adjective
 1.
 open to discussion or debate; debatable: a moot point. 
 
 A very misunderstood word !
–adjective
2.
of little or no practical value or meaning; purely academic.

(In other words, knowing how to prevent reflections in SPDIF signals is
of no practical value when it's not possible to actually achieve it in
most cases. This was the sense in which I used the word).


-- 
cliveb

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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] S/PDIF cables should be (a) - =1.5m or (b) as short as possible?

2011-01-17 Thread pski

cliveb;602949 Wrote: 
 –adjective
 2.
 of little or no practical value or meaning; purely academic.
 
 (In other words, knowing how to prevent reflections in SPDIF signals is
 of no practical value when it's not possible to actually achieve it in
 most cases. This was the sense in which I used the word).

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

The second definition is always most important, especially when your
example is included in the first definition.

I seem to remember the phrase moot point.

Mrn (SANS VOWELS)


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real stereo doesn't just wake the neighbors, it -enrages- them..

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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] S/PDIF cables should be (a) - =1.5m or (b) as short as possible?

2011-01-16 Thread pski

cliveb;602357 Wrote: 
 Proper 75ohm cable  termination would indeed do the trick.
 But since most SPDIF connections use RCA plugs/sockets, that's a moot
 point - the basic geometry of an RCA connector means 75ohm is not
 achievable.

moot
–adjective
1.
open to discussion or debate; debatable: a moot point. 

A very misunderstood word !


-- 
pski

real stereo doesn't just wake the neighbors, it -enrages- them..

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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] S/PDIF cables should be (a) - =1.5m or (b) as short as possible?

2011-01-14 Thread cliveb

Griffin;602275 Wrote: 
 Do you have a pointer to his explanation?
 
 As far as I know from the top of my head, the IEC 60958 II cable should
 be terminated correctly (@75Ohms), just to get rid of these things.
Proper 75ohm cable  termination would indeed do the trick.
But since most SPDIF connections use RCA plugs/sockets, that's a moot
point - the basic geometry of an RCA connector means 75ohm is not
achievable.


-- 
cliveb

Transporter - ATC SCM100A

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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] S/PDIF cables should be (a) - =1.5m or (b) as short as possible?

2011-01-14 Thread DaveWr

Hers's a discussion on the very topic:

http://www.diyhifi.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2t=1943start=0


Dave


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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] S/PDIF cables should be (a) - =1.5m or (b) as short as possible?

2011-01-13 Thread Griffin

According to the specification, up to 5 meter should be OK.


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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] S/PDIF cables should be (a) - =1.5m or (b) as short as possible?

2011-01-13 Thread darrenyeats

Griffin,
Sorry I should have made it clearer.

SN says these cables SHOULD be at least 1.5m long. DL says that's wrong
- there is no minimum length like that and in fact shorter is better.
These are the two conflicting views I've read.
Darren


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ATC C4 Sub]

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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] S/PDIF cables should be (a) - =1.5m or (b) as short as possible?

2011-01-13 Thread Phil Leigh

darrenyeats;602253 Wrote: 
 Griffin,
 Sorry I should have made it clearer.
 
 SN says these cables SHOULD be at least 1.5m long. DL says that's wrong
 - there is no minimum length like that and in fact shorter is better.
 These are the two conflicting views I've read.
 Darren

I'm with SN for what it's worth. Having said that, I've yet to hear or
measure (ADM) ANY difference with exotic silver cables vs BJ belden
(regardless of length!)...


-- 
Phil Leigh

You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it
ain't what you'd call minimal...
Touch(wired/XP) - TACT 2.2X (Linear PSU) + Good Vibrations S/W - MF
Triplethreat(Audiocom full mods) - Linn 5103 - Aktiv 5.1 system (6x
LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Pekin Tuner, Townsend
Supertweeters, Blue Jeans Digital,Kimber Speaker  Chord Interconnect
cables
Kitchen Boom, Outdoors: SB Radio, Harmony One remote for everything.

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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] S/PDIF cables should be (a) - =1.5m or (b) as short as possible?

2011-01-13 Thread Griffin

darrenyeats;602253 Wrote: 
 SN says these cables SHOULD be at least 1.5m long.

That is about the weirdest thing I've heard in a long time. What is his
reasoning for recommending a minimum length?

I'm not at work at the moment, but I'm pretty sure the standard doesn't
mention a minimum length. I'll look it up tomorrow morning (if I can
remember... ;)).


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Griffin

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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] S/PDIF cables should be (a) - =1.5m or (b) as short as possible?

2011-01-13 Thread Phil Leigh

Griffin;602271 Wrote: 
 That is about the weirdest thing I've heard in a long time. What is his
 reasoning for recommending a minimum length?
 
 I'm not at work at the moment, but I'm pretty sure the standard doesn't
 mention a minimum length. I'll look it up tomorrow morning (if I can
 remember... ;)).

reflectance back down the transmission line... The science/maths is
reasonably sound.


-- 
Phil Leigh

You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it
ain't what you'd call minimal...
Touch(wired/XP) - TACT 2.2X (Linear PSU) + Good Vibrations S/W - MF
Triplethreat(Audiocom full mods) - Linn 5103 - Aktiv 5.1 system (6x
LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Pekin Tuner, Townsend
Supertweeters, Blue Jeans Digital,Kimber Speaker  Chord Interconnect
cables
Kitchen Boom, Outdoors: SB Radio, Harmony One remote for everything.

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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] S/PDIF cables should be (a) - =1.5m or (b) as short as possible?

2011-01-13 Thread Griffin

Phil Leigh;602273 Wrote: 
 reflectance back down the transmission line... The science/maths is
 reasonably sound.
Do you have a pointer to his explanation?

As far as I know from the top of my head, the IEC 60958 II cable should
be terminated correctly (@75Ohms), just to get rid of these things.


-- 
Griffin

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Re: [SlimDevices: Audiophiles] S/PDIF cables should be (a) - =1.5m or (b) as short as possible?

2011-01-13 Thread Phil Leigh

Griffin;602275 Wrote: 
 Do you have a pointer to his explanation?
 
 As far as I know from the top of my head, the IEC 60958 II cable should
 be terminated correctly (@75Ohms), just to get rid of these things.

http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue14/spdif.htm

unfortunately neither the cable or the terminators are exactly 75 ohm
in practice... (cable typically rated +/- 3 ohms for example...and a 75
ohm rca connector is basically impossible to construct, no matter what
Canare say.


-- 
Phil Leigh

You want to see the signal path BEFORE it gets onto a CD/vinyl...it
ain't what you'd call minimal...
Touch(wired/XP) - TACT 2.2X (Linear PSU) + Good Vibrations S/W - MF
Triplethreat(Audiocom full mods) - Linn 5103 - Aktiv 5.1 system (6x
LK140's, ESPEK/TRIKAN/KATAN/SEIZMIK 10.5), Pekin Tuner, Townsend
Supertweeters, Blue Jeans Digital,Kimber Speaker  Chord Interconnect
cables
Kitchen Boom, Outdoors: SB Radio, Harmony One remote for everything.

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