Re: [Aus-soaring] Cheap memory foam

[Noel Roediger]

Further to my last post.

Foam is not going to protect you in any way when you impact the earth due to
personal incompetence.

Though you may be a certified pilot best you not continue unless you learn
to fly.

Noel.

-Original Message-
From: Aus-soaring [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.base64.com.au] On Behalf
Of DMcD
Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 8:09 PM
To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Cheap memory foam

>>I'm not convinced by the confor craze.

Craze? It's been going on for well over 30 years. The benefits have been
well researched by everyone from Farnborough, Martin Baker, the BGA and bone
doctors. They would have grounded K13s if it had not have been for memory
foam cushions limiting back injuries.

There's a heap of stuff online if you look.  Search for "BGA confor dynafoam
back injury".

It's up to you of course but my guess is that you would use the benefits of
an energy absorbent cushion more than you would use a parachute.

D
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Re: [Aus-soaring] Cheap memory foam

[Noel Roediger]

IMHO.

 

Memory foam as used by NASA is not used as crash protection. Rather, it is used 
to provide comfort and prevent bed-sores.

 

How on earth and in space is it going to protect astronauts in the event of an 
impact accident?

 

Noel

 

From: Aus-soaring [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.base64.com.au] On Behalf Of 
Stuart Wolf
Sent: Sunday, December 17, 2017 6:46 PM
To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Cheap memory foam

 

Postage was a killer though. It was $89 us to get a 1"x32" roll here. That 
might be OK if you are looking to make a single cushion, but when you start 
looking to make a few for a fleet, the price is astronomical. It becomes 
cheaper to buy memory foam from a local supplier.

I'm not convinced by the confor craze. I have not seen a single bit of evidence 
that the "superior" shock absorption has any meaningful outcomes in a crash. 
I'm only looking at the extra cost of memory foam to meet MOSP part 3

 

On Sun, Dec 17, 2017 at 5:08 PM, DMcD  wrote:

>>This is comparable to the foam cushions that we currently have. If anything 
>>the memory foam is better.
A quote I got a month or 2 ago was for nearly twice what the aldi offering is.

IMHO, the best value memory foam is the so-called "factory overstock"
from Dynamic Systems in the USA. They do a range of densities and
sizes and the price is very reasonable compared with say Confor. The
initial drop tests done in the UK appear to have been done with
Dynafoam.

Your mileage may vary as they say over there but the Aldi foam is
about the same as the medium soft from Dynamic and fine for an upper
layer but I doubt it would actually absorb much in the way of shock…
and isn't that what you're using it for? You'd need a medium density
foam for that.

Dynamic Systems do ship to Australia.


D
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Re: [Aus-soaring] AAT tasking

[Noel Roediger]

Mike.

 

Along time ago I proposed at a Narromine Pilots meeting, after nearly being
killed by a pilot playing for sheep stations at the start, there was a
better way to go.

 

I don't think you flew those nats.

 

One of the major problems  apparent was too many aircraft converging on one
point to start.

 

Solution offered was to limit competitors to 2 per state in each class and
each class comp. be flown from separate sites that had the ability to launch
14 sailplanes within a space established in their normal ops.

 

That idea was accepted and I was elected to the sports committee which I
attended on two occasions at my own cost with no GFA subsidy to put my case.

 

It was a waste of my time as I couldn't overcome the egos of WW and  RW.

 

Noel.

 

From: Aus-soaring [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.base64.com.au] On Behalf
Of Mike Borgelt
Sent: Saturday, December 2, 2017 5:12 PM
To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] AAT tasking

 


The AAT is seen as a way of mitigating the risks of mid airs in contests.

Now let's see: Collision risk goes up as the SQUARE of the number of
participants in any one contest. How do we reduce the total risk to find our
champions?

Mike







Borgelt Instruments - design & manufacture of quality soaring
instrumentation since 1978
  www.borgeltinstruments.com
tel:   07 4635 5784 overseas: int+61-7-4635 5784
mob: 042835 5784 :  int+61-42835 5784
P O Box 4607, Toowoomba East, QLD 4350, Australia 

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Re: [Aus-soaring] [gfaforum] 1000 K triangles

[Noel Roediger]

Ron.

 

Ansett had two Norwegian pilots: Bjorn Amundsen and Shell Leistaad.  Bjorn was 
my T/C as an intake pilot and I owe him so much. I was also his last F/O. After 
a redeye which we crewed he went to his property in the Strathbogies where he’d 
 established a large timber plantation as superannuation for his two children – 
Guy and Heidi. While slashing between the trees the slasher picked up a stone 
which rose and struck him in the back of his head. That caused Bjorn to fall 
backwards under the slasher.

I was contacted  by his wife and later Shell asking his last plans. That lead 
to Shell calling the local police to investigate and they found Bjorn still 
alive. Sadly he didn’t survive.

 

Shell was also an Ansett 727 Captain and he sent Thor – also an airline pilot - 
 a letter of introduction and Bev. and I met up with him at the 74 WC. 

 

I’m totally ignorant of Thor’s proposal. Please Post.

 

Noel.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

From: Ron Sanders [mailto:resand...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Saturday, December 2, 2017 4:29 PM
To: Justin Couch; Gliding Australia Forum; Discussion of issues relating to 
Soaring in Australia.
Subject: Re: [gfaforum] 1000 K triangles

 

Ingo competed in thirteen. As you say won four, and lost into second place at 
Wiener Neustadt by some stupidly small number of points. If one did a rigorous 
"uncertainty" or "error analysis" on the procedures in place at that time there 
is no way you can under any rigorous mathematical process ensure that with even 
75% probability that Ingo was actually beaten. As far as i am concerned he won 
four and was a draw for first place at Wiener Neustadt. The scoring system then 
and now is a load of shit. The simplest thing is that is to understand that we 
add up the points to score the winner and yet a point scored on Wednesday is 
not the same value as a point score on Thursday   you all aware of that???  
Ergo it is all shit.

Bill Anderson of the GCV had a really good system many many years ago, did not 
catch on, due to general ignorance. 

 

Does any of our up and coming newbys,  even the top ones know, anything about 
Thor Johansen's proposal from thirty years ago  Regards   scoring?? EH?? who is 
he At least he is still alive   I think

 

George won three,  but the big difference is - in Open class, in a row and 
without practise!!!  unless flying a along the border of east Germany in an 
F4 Phantom constitutes practise for Paderborn. And what about the day that he 
was the only finisher and the majority of the pilots were pissed off at the 
over set task and complained to the organisers?? At the next briefing the 
(French? ) comp director said regards the complaints that- they were there 
to determine the WORLD champion, the task was set and was possible as 
proven go jump! By the way George has said that it was the skinniest 
final glide he has ever done

 

yes time moves on, but do we learn anything??  AAT  tasks = what a load of 
shit!!!  I want maps, cameras and no gps!!  Am i getting bites???

 

Ron

 

On 2 December 2017 at 16:33, Justin Couch  wrote:

On 2/12/2017 4:30 PM, Ron Sanders wrote:

Come on guys!!!  a few words on the internet does not need this level of
aggro or holier than thou or what ever.

I am only asking these questions for fun.

I sometime wonder if the new youngsters are aware of the records and
achievements that older Australian glider pilots have made in the past.


Yup. Loss of corporate history is a real thing, and these are good ways of help 
people understand where we come from. GFA trivial night in the virtual world.

Next question- How many world comps did Ingo win?? How many did he
attend??


He won 4. Don't know how many he's attended. It would have to be in double 
figures (assuming "attending" means competing in, rather than showing up for a 
dinner and a chat as a guest).

How many did our other New Australian George Lee win, attend?


Pass!

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Re: [Aus-soaring] [gfaforum] 1000 K triangles

[Noel Roediger]

To an Ian Douglas

 

Diddums.

 

It is an invaluable and standard term used by most aviation instructors for all 
their students about sit an exam.

 

READ THE FULL QUESTION.

 

I’m bemused by your aggressive post on our forum and it is not public – only 
available to GFA members.

 

All of the senior members of GFA are my friends as are all the juniors I’ve 
ever come in contact with.

 

My credentials are well known.

 

What are yours. I’m sure all members of this forum will be interested!

 

Noel Roediger.

 

PS. Mark: you provided us with a site I’d not previously viewed Thank You- but 
it didn’t answer Ron’s questions. RTFQ.

 

From: iandouglas...@bigpond.com [mailto:iandouglas...@bigpond.com] 
Sent: Saturday, December 2, 2017 2:32 PM
To: Gliding Australia Forum
Cc: marklibe...@gmail.com; resand...@gmail.com; 
aus-soaring@lists.base64.com.au; roedi...@internode.on.net
Subject: Re: [gfaforum] 1000 K triangles

 

To a Noel Roediger.

 

I don't know you, and you probably don't know me, but your abbreviated language 
serves nothing positive for the sport of gliding. Put simply, if you have 
nothing positive to say, quite often it's best just to      ! 
This is a public forum, that most of those youngsters out there who are 
thinking of joining would be reading, so I wonder how many your irresponsible 
and totally negative response has turned away from taking up gliding. By the 
way, those of us already in gliding have had enough of the negative tone thrown 
around on this forum. As I said before .. 


On Friday, December 1, 2017 at 9:09:40 PM UTC+10, Noel Roediger wrote:

RTFQ.

 

The site you’ve provided answers none of the questions asked.

 

From: Mark Bland [mailto:markl...@gmail.com  ] 
Sent: Friday, December 1, 2017 10:42 AM
To: 'Ron Sanders'; 'Gliding Australia Forum'; 'Discussion of issues relating to 
Soaring in Australia.'
Subject: RE: [gfaforum] 1000 K triangles

 

Ever heard of Google:

 

https://www.fai.org/page/igc-1000km-badges

 

 

From: Ron Sanders [mailto:r...@gmail.com  ] 
Sent: Friday, 1 December 2017 10:31 AM
To: Gliding Australia Forum; Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in 
Australia.
Subject: [gfaforum] 1000 K triangles

 

Ok Guys out there so where were the following done and  by whom, when??

 

First in world 1000 FAI triange any class Open

 

First in world 1000 FAI triangle 15m class

 

First in world 1000 FAI triangle Standard class

 

Ron

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Re: [Aus-soaring] [gfaforum] 1000 K triangles

[Noel Roediger]

RTFQ.

 

The site you’ve provided answers none of the questions asked.

 

From: Mark Bland [mailto:marklibe...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Friday, December 1, 2017 10:42 AM
To: 'Ron Sanders'; 'Gliding Australia Forum'; 'Discussion of issues relating to 
Soaring in Australia.'
Subject: RE: [gfaforum] 1000 K triangles

 

Ever heard of Google:

 

https://www.fai.org/page/igc-1000km-badges

 

 

From: Ron Sanders [mailto:resand...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Friday, 1 December 2017 10:31 AM
To: Gliding Australia Forum; Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in 
Australia.
Subject: [gfaforum] 1000 K triangles

 

Ok Guys out there so where were the following done and  by whom, when??

 

First in world 1000 FAI triange any class Open

 

First in world 1000 FAI triangle 15m class

 

First in world 1000 FAI triangle Standard class

 

Ron

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Virus-free.  

 www.avg.com 

 

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Re: [Aus-soaring] [gfaforum] History

[Noel Roediger]

Thanks Ken.

 

Following that editorial a number of claims/counterclaims appeared in AG re. 
Mike and Harry’s accidents. I’m sure you’ve read them. Doc Heydon requested GFA 
honour Harry with an annual award and that’s why the Ryan medallion came into 
being. Initially it and the Hoinville medallion were awarded to the Dux’ of NGS 
for maintenance and instructing. Since the demise of NGS they’ve been awarded 
ad hoc, generally based on an individuals recommendation.

 

AG was not printed for 6months after A.A. suffered burn out and only 
re-appeared after GFA took responsibility for its publication.

 

Thank for you providing accurate info re. R3 GHA’s accident. I knew it came 
from pilot error but for some reason thought it was a spin in.

 

I reckon this is probably boring most of the readers of both Aus Soaring and 
the GFA forum so I’ll cc you in my comms. with another SCGC from your era.

 

Regards.

 

Noel.

 

From: Aus-soaring [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.base64.com.au] On Behalf Of 
Kenneth Caldwell
Sent: Friday, December 1, 2017 9:50 AM
To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] [gfaforum] History

 

The attached editorial from "AG" is likely to be more accurate than my hearsay 
from several years later. Unfortunately "AG" was not published for many months 
around the time of the R3 crash.

'Ken

 

 

On 29 November 2017 at 23:39, Kenneth Caldwell <kencld...@gmail.com> wrote:

There were three fatal gliding accidents in one or two years in the early 
sixties. Besides the R3 crash which was witnessed by several pilots at 
Narromine the SCGC Kingfisher flown by Mike Taylor seems to have spun in near 
Balladoran while on a cross country flight. The only witness was, I understand, 
a stockman whos description of the accident appeared to be of a spin. The third 
accident happened when the pilot did a down wind "beat up" in a Grunau with the 
intention of landing off a stall turn. Unfortunately he spun in.

 

Ken

 

 

On 29 November 2017 at 22:28, Noel Roediger <roedi...@internode.on.net> wrote:

Thanks Ken.

 

Longtime no see.

 

I was at Camden late 65-early 66-as a teenager flying TK’s Foka when we met.

 

You’ve answered part of my question.

 

I was always of the opinion Tom had spun in while outlanding but the 
cancellation of the R3’s type certificate indicated it was prone to aileron 
flutter.

 

Regards

 

Noel.

 

From: Aus-soaring [mailto: <mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.base64.com.au> 
aus-soaring-boun...@lists.base64.com.au] On Behalf Of Kenneth Caldwell
Sent: Wednesday, November 29, 2017 9:34 PM
To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.

Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] [gfaforum] History

 

I have no documentary evidence and the R3 crash happened a few years before I 
started gliding but the stories going round in those days were that the 
aircraft disintegrated over Narromine while being flown (unknowingly) above vne.

Vne was not placarded when the aircraft changed hands so the new owners decided 
that the vne of the BG12 would be OK. It was not.

 

Ken

 

 

On 29 November 2017 at 20:22, Noel Roediger <roedi...@internode.on.net> wrote:

Peter.

 

Sorry for the duff gen. It effectively removed two years of my life and 
drifting off to sleep realised my mistake. I’d referenced it to Trevor’s 
original offer which was made in 1967 – just as I was about to become a CPL -  
completely forgetting the lead time from order to delivery and not referring to 
available references.  When you next view Charlie’s log book can you confirm 
the original syndicate was Monty Cotton, Jan Coolhaas, Peter Hanneman and 
Werner Geissler.

 

Mike; The history of the FK3 is an enigma. My info. came directly from TK. A 
dim memory recalls Harro  Wodl flew it with success but I cannot draw any real 
conclusion as the nett doesn’t show any real fact. You will have seen that most 
reference CofA by LBA which you’ve previous alluded to came into play?

 

NEW TRIVIA QUESTION. Two R3’s were built in Australia. First by Dr. Mervyn Hall 
at Toowoomba and the second by Arthur Powell at Canberra. Doc Hall lost his 
life when he had a heart attack and his R3 spiralled into the ground. Arthur , 
after a number of very successful flights sold his to a Camden based syndicate. 
That was written off when it was crashed by Tom Hanlon. Why? And why were we 
not advised in AG?

 

Noel.

 

From: Aus-soaring [ <mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.base64.com.au> 
mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.base64.com.au] On Behalf Of Peter Brookman
Sent: Monday, November 27, 2017 10:03 PM


To: 'Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.'; 'Ron Sanders'; 
'Gliding Australia Forum'
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] [gfaforum] History

 

Some facts on GXC from present owner, taken from the log book and other 
documentation.

 

He hasn't got the facts right. 

 

It was built in West Germany 1969

Re: [Aus-soaring] [gfaforum] History

[Noel Roediger]

Thanks Ken.

 

Longtime no see.

 

I was at Camden late 65-early 66-as a teenager flying TK’s Foka when we met.

 

You’ve answered part of my question.

 

I was always of the opinion Tom had spun in while outlanding but the 
cancellation of the R3’s type certificate indicated it was prone to aileron 
flutter.

 

Regards

 

Noel.

 

From: Aus-soaring [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.base64.com.au] On Behalf Of 
Kenneth Caldwell
Sent: Wednesday, November 29, 2017 9:34 PM
To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] [gfaforum] History

 

I have no documentary evidence and the R3 crash happened a few years before I 
started gliding but the stories going round in those days were that the 
aircraft disintegrated over Narromine while being flown (unknowingly) above vne.

Vne was not placarded when the aircraft changed hands so the new owners decided 
that the vne of the BG12 would be OK. It was not.

 

Ken

 

 

On 29 November 2017 at 20:22, Noel Roediger <roedi...@internode.on.net> wrote:

Peter.

 

Sorry for the duff gen. It effectively removed two years of my life and 
drifting off to sleep realised my mistake. I’d referenced it to Trevor’s 
original offer which was made in 1967 – just as I was about to become a CPL -  
completely forgetting the lead time from order to delivery and not referring to 
available references.  When you next view Charlie’s log book can you confirm 
the original syndicate was Monty Cotton, Jan Coolhaas, Peter Hanneman and 
Werner Geissler.

 

Mike; The history of the FK3 is an enigma. My info. came directly from TK. A 
dim memory recalls Harro  Wodl flew it with success but I cannot draw any real 
conclusion as the nett doesn’t show any real fact. You will have seen that most 
reference CofA by LBA which you’ve previous alluded to came into play?

 

NEW TRIVIA QUESTION. Two R3’s were built in Australia. First by Dr. Mervyn Hall 
at Toowoomba and the second by Arthur Powell at Canberra. Doc Hall lost his 
life when he had a heart attack and his R3 spiralled into the ground. Arthur , 
after a number of very successful flights sold his to a Camden based syndicate. 
That was written off when it was crashed by Tom Hanlon. Why? And why were we 
not advised in AG?

 

Noel.

 

From: Aus-soaring [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.base64.com.au] On Behalf Of 
Peter Brookman
Sent: Monday, November 27, 2017 10:03 PM


To: 'Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.'; 'Ron Sanders'; 
'Gliding Australia Forum'
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] [gfaforum] History

 

Some facts on GXC from present owner, taken from the log book and other 
documentation.

 

He hasn't got the facts right. 

 

It was built in West Germany 1969. 

 

Very first test flight in Germany 49 minutes on 27/10/1969 by H MULLER

 

Next test flight in Narromine 2 hours 40 minutes on 24/12/1969 by W GIESLER

 

 

 

From: Noel Roediger 

Sent: Monday, November 27, 2017 12:01 PM

To: 'Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.' ; 'Ron Sanders' ; 
'Gliding Australia Forum' 

Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] [gfaforum] History

 

The first two Kestrels came to Aus.in late 67 – just in time for the Nats that 
were held in Narromine.

 

XC was owned by a syndicate based at Bathurst and XX was owned by Martin 
Simons, later purchased by the WGC where it still resides but is privately 
owned.

 

XC was purchased by TT in 68 and he shipped him to Vrsac – Yugoslavia - for the 
1970 Worlds.

 

Of note, both these aircraft had balsa cores instead of the foam we are now 
used to. During the first winter the balsa absorbed moisture and the wing 
surface clearly showed the balsa planks. The only real cure was to store the 
aircraft in a warm and dry environment.

 

After Tony sold XC to an Adelaide based syndicate disaster very nearly 
occurred. Towards the end of winter they noticed the surface distortions and 
proceeded to sand them out only to find the distortions re-appeared as 
indentations as summer progressed. Fortunately the smoothing had not touched 
the glass and a coat of primer/surfacer and further sanding restored the 
profile.

 

Another interesting sailplane that arrived about the same time was an FK3 
imported by Trevor Kyle and to be flown by John Rowe in the Nats.  
Unfortunately it did not have sufficient documentation to permit it to be 
flown. Later it was granted a Permit to Fly but after one suffered a mid-flight 
structural failure VFW recalled it to Europe where it and other survivors were 
destroyed.

 

Noel

 

From: Aus-soaring [ <mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.base64.com.au> 
mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.base64.com.au] On Behalf Of Peter Brookman
Sent: Monday, November 27, 2017 10:08 AM
To: 'Ron Sanders'; 'Gliding Australia Forum'; 'Discussion of issues relating to 
Soaring in Australia.'
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] [gfaforum] History

 

XC now lives at Bordertown, owned by Adam Howell who purchased it from m

Re: [Aus-soaring] [gfaforum] History

[Noel Roediger]

I’ve no answer to that Mike.

 

I flew Trevor’s FK3 when it was at Waikerie and nearly wrote it off.

 

T/O commenced behind VH-WGC flown by Bruce Hartwig. When Bruce went to full 
power a cloud of dust enveloped the FK3. All I could do was keep the rope –all 
the visual 10” of it aligned and realising that was a pretty dumb fix applied a 
bit of back stick and rose above the dust to establish my attitude and waited 
for the Pawnee to come in to sight.

 

I’ve no idea what my thought process was that averted the imminent catastrophe.

 

After that all went well. I joined a thermal Bev had marked while flying the 
“Yellow Witch” and out-climbed the Olympia. That shouldn’t be taken as an 
aspersion on Bev’s thermalling ability (which is excellent) but as an example 
of the FK3’s performance. I joined up later with the WGC’s 301 and SH1 and the 
FK3 outperformed both by a significant margin. 

 

It’s handling was above average and the  only thing that took a bit of time to 
get used to was the fact it had a broken stick.

 

Regards

 

Noel.

 

From: Aus-soaring [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.base64.com.au] On Behalf Of 
Mike Borgelt
Sent: Wednesday, November 29, 2017 8:16 PM
To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] [gfaforum] History

 

Found this which would indicate an FK3 was flying in 1995. Page 246 for sale:
https://s3-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/bga-sg-archive/Sailplane+ 
<https://s3-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/bga-sg-archive/Sailplane+%26+Gliding+1955+to+2000+-+274+mags+9.32GB/volume_xlvi_no.4_august_september_1995.pdf>
 
&+Gliding+1955+to+2000+-+274+mags+9.32GB/volume_xlvi_no.4_august_september_1995.pdf
 

Mike







At 07:22 PM 11/29/2017, you wrote:



Content-Type: multipart/related;
 boundary="=_NextPart_000_0018_01D3694B.91FD32F0"
Content-Language: en-us

Peter.
 
Sorry for the duff gen. It effectively removed two years of my life and 
drifting off to sleep realised my mistake. I’d referenced it to Trevor’s 
original offer which was made in 1967 – just as I was about to become a CPL -Â  
completely forgetting the lead time from order to delivery and not referring to 
available references.  When you next view Charlie’s log book can you confirm 
the original syndicate was Monty Cotton, Jan Coolhaas, Peter Hanneman and 
Werner Geissler.
 
Mike; The history of the FK3 is an enigma. My info. came directly from TK. A 
dim memory recalls Harro  Wodl flew it with success but I cannot draw any real 
conclusion as the nett doesn’t show any real fact. You will have seen that 
most reference CofA by LBA which you’ve previous alluded to came into play?
 
NEW TRIVIA QUESTION. Two R3’s were built in Australia. First by Dr. Mervyn 
Hall at Toowoomba and the second by Arthur Powell at Canberra. Doc Hall lost 
his life when he had a heart attack and his R3 spiralled into the ground. 
Arthur , after a number of very successful flights sold his to a Camden based 
syndicate. That was written off when it was crashed by Tom Hanlon. Why? And why 
were we not advised in AG?
 
Noel.
 
From: Aus-soaring [ mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.base64.com.au 
<mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.base64.com.au> ] On Behalf Of Peter Brookman
Sent: Monday, November 27, 2017 10:03 PM
To: 'Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.'; 'Ron Sanders'; 
'Gliding Australia Forum'
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] [gfaforum] History
 
Some facts on GXC from present owner, taken from the log book and other 
documentation.
 
He hasn't got the facts right. 
 
It was built in West Germany 1969. 
 
Very first test flight in Germany 49 minutes on 27/10/1969 by H MULLER
 
Next test flight in Narromine 2 hours 40 minutes on 24/12/1969 by W GIESLER
 
 
 
From: Noel Roediger 
Sent: Monday, November 27, 2017 12:01 PM
To: 'Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.' ; 'Ron Sanders' ; 
'Gliding Australia Forum' 
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] [gfaforum] History
 
The first two Kestrels came to Aus.in late 67 – just in time for the Nats that 
were held in Narromine.
 
XC was owned by a syndicate based at Bathurst and XX was owned by Martin 
Simons, later purchased by the WGC where it still resides but is privately 
owned.
 
XC was purchased by TT in 68 and he shipped him to Vrsac – Yugoslavia - for the 
1970 Worlds.
 
Of note, both these aircraft had balsa cores instead of the foam we are now 
used to. During the first winter the balsa absorbed moisture and the wing 
surface clearly showed the balsa planks. The only real cure was to store the 
aircraft in a warm and dry environment.
 
After Tony sold XC to an Adelaide based syndicate disaster very nearly 
occurred. Towards the end of winter they noticed the surface distortions and 
proceeded to sand them out only to find the distortions re-appeared as 
indentations as summer progressed. Fortunately the smoothing had not touched 
the glass and a coat of primer/surfacer and further san

Re: [Aus-soaring] [gfaforum] History

[Noel Roediger]

Peter.

 

Sorry for the duff gen. It effectively removed two years of my life and 
drifting off to sleep realised my mistake. I’d referenced it to Trevor’s 
original offer which was made in 1967 – just as I was about to become a CPL -  
completely forgetting the lead time from order to delivery and not referring to 
available references.  When you next view Charlie’s log book can you confirm 
the original syndicate was Monty Cotton, Jan Coolhaas, Peter Hanneman and 
Werner Geissler.

 

Mike; The history of the FK3 is an enigma. My info. came directly from TK. A 
dim memory recalls Harro  Wodl flew it with success but I cannot draw any real 
conclusion as the nett doesn’t show any real fact. You will have seen that most 
reference CofA by LBA which you’ve previous alluded to came into play?

 

NEW TRIVIA QUESTION. Two R3’s were built in Australia. First by Dr. Mervyn Hall 
at Toowoomba and the second by Arthur Powell at Canberra. Doc Hall lost his 
life when he had a heart attack and his R3 spiralled into the ground. Arthur , 
after a number of very successful flights sold his to a Camden based syndicate. 
That was written off when it was crashed by Tom Hanlon. Why? And why were we 
not advised in AG?

 

Noel.

 

From: Aus-soaring [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.base64.com.au] On Behalf Of 
Peter Brookman
Sent: Monday, November 27, 2017 10:03 PM
To: 'Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.'; 'Ron Sanders'; 
'Gliding Australia Forum'
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] [gfaforum] History

 

Some facts on GXC from present owner, taken from the log book and other 
documentation.

 

He hasn't got the facts right. 

 

It was built in West Germany 1969. 

 

Very first test flight in Germany 49 minutes on 27/10/1969 by H MULLER

 

Next test flight in Narromine 2 hours 40 minutes on 24/12/1969 by W GIESLER

 

 

 

From: Noel Roediger 

Sent: Monday, November 27, 2017 12:01 PM

To: 'Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.' ; 'Ron Sanders' ; 
'Gliding Australia Forum' 

Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] [gfaforum] History

 

The first two Kestrels came to Aus.in late 67 – just in time for the Nats that 
were held in Narromine.

 

XC was owned by a syndicate based at Bathurst and XX was owned by Martin 
Simons, later purchased by the WGC where it still resides but is privately 
owned.

 

XC was purchased by TT in 68 and he shipped him to Vrsac – Yugoslavia - for the 
1970 Worlds.

 

Of note, both these aircraft had balsa cores instead of the foam we are now 
used to. During the first winter the balsa absorbed moisture and the wing 
surface clearly showed the balsa planks. The only real cure was to store the 
aircraft in a warm and dry environment.

 

After Tony sold XC to an Adelaide based syndicate disaster very nearly 
occurred. Towards the end of winter they noticed the surface distortions and 
proceeded to sand them out only to find the distortions re-appeared as 
indentations as summer progressed. Fortunately the smoothing had not touched 
the glass and a coat of primer/surfacer and further sanding restored the 
profile.

 

Another interesting sailplane that arrived about the same time was an FK3 
imported by Trevor Kyle and to be flown by John Rowe in the Nats.  
Unfortunately it did not have sufficient documentation to permit it to be 
flown. Later it was granted a Permit to Fly but after one suffered a mid-flight 
structural failure VFW recalled it to Europe where it and other survivors were 
destroyed.

 

Noel

 

From: Aus-soaring [ <mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.base64.com.au> 
mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.base64.com.au] On Behalf Of Peter Brookman
Sent: Monday, November 27, 2017 10:08 AM
To: 'Ron Sanders'; 'Gliding Australia Forum'; 'Discussion of issues relating to 
Soaring in Australia.'
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] [gfaforum] History

 

XC now lives at Bordertown, owned by Adam Howell who purchased it from me. 
Previous to that was owned by Paul Bart ,DDSC.,  was at Murray Bridge 
(Pallamana) at one time. Tony T, owned it I guess from new in early 1970’s and 
flew in World Comps , Italy (i think).

 

Peter Brookman

 

From: Noel Roediger 

Sent: Monday, November 27, 2017 9:23 AM

To: 'Ron Sanders' ; 'Gliding Australia Forum' ; 'Discussion of issues relating 
to Soaring in Australia.' 

Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] [gfaforum] History

 

Tony Tabart in XC

 

From: Ron Sanders [ <mailto:resand...@gmail.com> mailto:resand...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Monday, November 27, 2017 8:21 AM
To: Gliding Australia Forum; Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in 
Australia.
Subject: [gfaforum] History

 

Who was the first Australian to achieve a day win in world competitions?

 

Ron

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Re: [Aus-soaring] [gfaforum] History

[Noel Roediger]

Correction – 72 Worlds

 

From: Aus-soaring [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.base64.com.au] On Behalf Of 
Noel Roediger
Sent: Monday, November 27, 2017 12:02 PM
To: 'Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.'; 'Ron Sanders'; 
'Gliding Australia Forum'
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] [gfaforum] History

 

The first two Kestrels came to Aus.in late 67 – just in time for the Nats that 
were held in Narromine.

 

XC was owned by a syndicate based at Bathurst and XX was owned by Martin 
Simons, later purchased by the WGC where it still resides but is privately 
owned.

 

XC was purchased by TT in 68 and he shipped him to Vrsac – Yugoslavia - for the 
1970 Worlds.

 

Of note, both these aircraft had balsa cores instead of the foam we are now 
used to. During the first winter the balsa absorbed moisture and the wing 
surface clearly showed the balsa planks. The only real cure was to store the 
aircraft in a warm and dry environment.

 

After Tony sold XC to an Adelaide based syndicate disaster very nearly 
occurred. Towards the end of winter they noticed the surface distortions and 
proceeded to sand them out only to find the distortions re-appeared as 
indentations as summer progressed. Fortunately the smoothing had not touched 
the glass and a coat of primer/surfacer and further sanding restored the 
profile.

 

Another interesting sailplane that arrived about the same time was an FK3 
imported by Trevor Kyle and to be flown by John Rowe in the Nats.  
Unfortunately it did not have sufficient documentation to permit it to be 
flown. Later it was granted a Permit to Fly but after one suffered a mid-flight 
structural failure VFW recalled it to Europe where it and other survivors were 
destroyed.

 

Noel

 

From: Aus-soaring [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.base64.com.au] On Behalf Of 
Peter Brookman
Sent: Monday, November 27, 2017 10:08 AM
To: 'Ron Sanders'; 'Gliding Australia Forum'; 'Discussion of issues relating to 
Soaring in Australia.'
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] [gfaforum] History

 

XC now lives at Bordertown, owned by Adam Howell who purchased it from me. 
Previous to that was owned by Paul Bart ,DDSC.,  was at Murray Bridge 
(Pallamana) at one time. Tony T, owned it I guess from new in early 1970’s and 
flew in World Comps , Italy (i think).

 

Peter Brookman

 

From: Noel Roediger 

Sent: Monday, November 27, 2017 9:23 AM

To: 'Ron Sanders' ; 'Gliding Australia Forum' ; 'Discussion of issues relating 
to Soaring in Australia.' 

Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] [gfaforum] History

 

Tony Tabart in XC

 

From: Ron Sanders [mailto:resand...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Monday, November 27, 2017 8:21 AM
To: Gliding Australia Forum; Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in 
Australia.
Subject: [gfaforum] History

 

Who was the first Australian to achieve a day win in world competitions?

 

Ron

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Re: [Aus-soaring] [gfaforum] History

[Noel Roediger]

The first two Kestrels came to Aus.in late 67 – just in time for the Nats that 
were held in Narromine.

 

XC was owned by a syndicate based at Bathurst and XX was owned by Martin 
Simons, later purchased by the WGC where it still resides but is privately 
owned.

 

XC was purchased by TT in 68 and he shipped him to Vrsac – Yugoslavia - for the 
1970 Worlds.

 

Of note, both these aircraft had balsa cores instead of the foam we are now 
used to. During the first winter the balsa absorbed moisture and the wing 
surface clearly showed the balsa planks. The only real cure was to store the 
aircraft in a warm and dry environment.

 

After Tony sold XC to an Adelaide based syndicate disaster very nearly 
occurred. Towards the end of winter they noticed the surface distortions and 
proceeded to sand them out only to find the distortions re-appeared as 
indentations as summer progressed. Fortunately the smoothing had not touched 
the glass and a coat of primer/surfacer and further sanding restored the 
profile.

 

Another interesting sailplane that arrived about the same time was an FK3 
imported by Trevor Kyle and to be flown by John Rowe in the Nats.  
Unfortunately it did not have sufficient documentation to permit it to be 
flown. Later it was granted a Permit to Fly but after one suffered a mid-flight 
structural failure VFW recalled it to Europe where it and other survivors were 
destroyed.

 

Noel

 

From: Aus-soaring [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.base64.com.au] On Behalf Of 
Peter Brookman
Sent: Monday, November 27, 2017 10:08 AM
To: 'Ron Sanders'; 'Gliding Australia Forum'; 'Discussion of issues relating to 
Soaring in Australia.'
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] [gfaforum] History

 

XC now lives at Bordertown, owned by Adam Howell who purchased it from me. 
Previous to that was owned by Paul Bart ,DDSC.,  was at Murray Bridge 
(Pallamana) at one time. Tony T, owned it I guess from new in early 1970’s and 
flew in World Comps , Italy (i think).

 

Peter Brookman

 

From: Noel Roediger 

Sent: Monday, November 27, 2017 9:23 AM

To: 'Ron Sanders' ; 'Gliding Australia Forum' ; 'Discussion of issues relating 
to Soaring in Australia.' 

Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] [gfaforum] History

 

Tony Tabart in XC

 

From: Ron Sanders [mailto:resand...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Monday, November 27, 2017 8:21 AM
To: Gliding Australia Forum; Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in 
Australia.
Subject: [gfaforum] History

 

Who was the first Australian to achieve a day win in world competitions?

 

Ron

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Re: [Aus-soaring] FES fire in the UK

[Noel Roediger]

They were LiPo’s Bernard.

 

EASA had surprisingly certified their their use when they’re known to be unsafe.

 

All FES types are currently grounded in Europe..

 

It seems LiFePo’s are a much safer option.

 

Regards

 

Noel.

 

 

 

From: Aus-soaring [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.base64.com.au] On Behalf Of 
Future Aviation Pty. Ltd.
Sent: Friday, September 29, 2017 6:33 AM
To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
Subject: [Aus-soaring] FES fire in the UK

 

Good morning all

 

This was sent to me over night by a German friend of mine.

 

As you can see, no mention was made of the type of battery used here. 

>From my visits to the AERO trade fair I know that some manufacturers use LiPo 
>Batteries.

They have the best power to weight ratio but they are known to be extremely 
dangerous. 

I will attempt to find out if this type of battery was installed in this 
glider. 

 

Kind regards to all

 

Bernard  





>From UK, newspaper report:

 



 

 

The Air Accidents Investigation Branch has made a safety recommendation after a 
sailplane burst into flames shortly after landing in Parham Airfield. On August 
10, 2017, the glider sailplane set off from the airfield between Storrington 
and Pulborough at 10.21am for a flight lasting approximately two hours. The 
glider was flown normally to a smooth touchdown, according to the AAIB, until 
the pilot heard an ‘unexpected noise’. The AAIB report said: “As the glider 
slowed during the ground run, the pilot smelled burning and the cockpit filled 
with smoke that was moving forwards from behind the pilot’s head. “He vacated 
the cockpit normally, without injury, and observed that the Front Electric 
Sustainer (FES) battery compartment cover was missing and that smoke, followed 
shortly by flames, was coming from the battery compartment. “The airfield fire 
truck arrived promptly and an initial attempt was made to extinguish the fire 
using a CO2 gaseous extinguisher, but this proved unsuccessful. “Aqueous 
film-forming foam (AFFF) was then sprayed into the FES battery compartment and 
the fire was extinguished.” 

 

 

The pilot was the only person on board the glider, according to the AAIB.

He did not report observing any warning messages or illuminated LEDs, when 
asked by the AAIB, although his attention was drawn outside the cockpit during 
landing.

The AAIB report found existing FES battery installations ‘do not provide 
sufficient warning’ to a pilot of a fire.

As a result, the AAIB made a safety recommendation that ‘all powered sailplanes 
fitted with an FES system, must be equipped with a warning system to alert the 
pilot to the presence of a fire in the FES battery compartment’.

The AAIB investigation confirmed the ‘origin of the fire’ was the forward FES 
battery.

The report added: “Its battery box was ruptured along the rear left corner and 
the battery assembly was heavily fire damaged.

“The rear FES battery box suffered from external fire damage although the 
internal components were only slightly damaged and the cells remained charged.

“The FES battery compartment was heavily fire damaged.

 

see also

https://www.gov.uk/aaib-reports/aaib-special-bulletin-s3-2017-on-hph-glasflugel-304-es-g-gsgs

http://www.front-electric-sustainer.com/news.php

http://publicapps.caa.co.uk/docs/33/20170906EASAAD20170167E.pdf

 

 

 

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Re: [Aus-soaring] Warm Fronts on the BOM Weather Maps

[Noel Roediger]

Hello Peter.

 

Bob’s response is spot on.

 

The warm fronts have always been there.

 

BOM aviation forecasters – in my opinion – have been a law unto themselves.

 

A long time ago I was flying an F27 ADL – PLC – ADL on a CAVOK forecast and on 
approaching ADL on the final leg the water of Gulf St. Vincent was instantly 
covered by sea fog and I managed to land through local knowledge – trees poking 
through the fog.

 

After shutdown I went to the briefing office and asked the BOM bloke – a 
Frenchman called Pierre – to issue a new forecast that required A/C flying into 
ADL to carry an alternate.

 

Why was his response. Mine was ‘look out of the window and you’ll see why.

 

At that time the ADL tower sat atop the terminal and directly below it was the 
briefing office which normally had a clear view to the West from N/E to S/E and 
the F27 I’d just landed could not be seen on the apron below. An absolute 
aviation saga continued through the day. Too long to record here.

 

Fw’d a few years and  I was planning a flight MEB – PTH.  First step was to 
collect the forecast from the Met counter. At that time the first of the 
computer generated high altitude wind forecasts were being issued. 

 

A quick glance indicated a problem.  In a normal jet stream  situation I 
expected a H/W of about 300/150 bit this forecast indicated 120/150.

 

The Frenchman – who had transferred to MEB, was on duty and refused to accept 
that the forecast was impossibly correct.

 

I flight planned to ADL – refuel to full tanks – then PTH where we landed 
safely.

 

I can’t recall those that fell short. Available in the old “Crash Comic”.

 

Years later I flew a high altitude turbo-prop A/C over much of the world on the 
basis of my own met. knowledge and survived without incident.

 

I don’t have much time for Wally’s publication.

 

Noel.

 

 

 

From: Aus-soaring [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.base64.com.au] On Behalf Of 
Peter Champness
Sent: Monday, September 18, 2017 5:42 PM
To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
Subject: [Aus-soaring] Warm Fronts on the BOM Weather Maps

 

Has any noticed that warm fronts are becoming a feature of our weather maps?

 

I can't remember seeing them before, except possibly well south of Tasmania.  
David Wilson said something recently about our cold fronts being somewhat like 
the Northern Hemisphere  warm fronts that Wallington describes in his book 
(Meteorology for Glider Pilots).

 

In  a similar manner troughs were not seen on our weather maps before about the 
mid 1990's.  Now they are every where.

 

Is it Climate Change or is the BOM learning something?

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Re: [Aus-soaring] [gfaforum] RE: water bags and tanks

[Noel Roediger]

 partner until then.” A very interesting 
point, which I have had the misfortune to inadvertently explore a little bit, 
but – thank  God – never seriously in the air.

 

Without doubt  the use of water ballast  introduced a whole new dimension to 
gliding, as, just co-incidentally Mike B mentioned in a concurrent post. 
However it use is something that should never be treated lightly [groan].  A 
couple of hundred litres of ballast will turn your pussy cat into a tiger:  In 
the glide;  into a missile  . almost.  Take care that you are not lined up 
on one of your mates.

 

You say “A number of prototype sailplanes have been lost while testing their 
ability to remain controllable at the stall with max. Imbalance”  I have never 
had the chance to own/fly  a current “super-ship”, but from the literature , 
they have (as a minimum), inboard tanks, outboard tanks, and fuselage tanks. It 
would seem to me that the situation could become somewhat  fraught, if the 
slightest thing goes wrong with the dumping arrangement. 

 

Would any knowable person like to make comment here?

 

Finally we come to the important practical question of “good ballast bags”. It 
would seem that these are becoming hard to source, due to potential liability 
issues. Who  in Australia, or elsewhere, are making new replacement  bags?

 

Regards,

Gary

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

From: Aus-soaring [ <mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.base64.com.au> 
mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.base64.com.au] On Behalf Of Noel Roediger
Sent: Sunday, 27 August 2017 10:18 PM
To: 'Anthony Smith'; 'Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.'; 
'Gliding Australia Forum'
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] [gfaforum] RE: American Soaring Symposia

 

Thanks Anthony.

 

The final question asked of Wil re assymetric water ballast merits further 
comment particularly for those who fly sailplanes with bags instead of tanks.

 

I believe good ballast bags far outweigh the problems exhibited by rigid tanks 
which often leak into the surrounding structure.

 

Having said that I don’t know of any “bagged” tank that is not extended and 
held in place by a rear cord.

 

In reality bags should be held by two cords. One at its rear as is the norm but 
also one at its front to eliminate the possibility of its leading edge falling 
over the aft edge and becoming twisted.

 

 

 

Regards

 

Noel.

 

From: Anthony Smith [ <mailto:anthony.sm...@adelaide.on.net> 
mailto:anthony.sm...@adelaide.on.net] 
Sent: Sunday, August 27, 2017 6:32 PM
To: 'Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.'; 'Gliding 
Australia Forum'
Subject: [gfaforum] RE: [Aus-soaring] American Soaring Symposia

 

Part of the Wil Schumann paper is here:

 

 <http://www.betsybyars.com/guy/soaring_symposia/72-modif.html> 
http://www.betsybyars.com/guy/soaring_symposia/72-modif.html 

 

From: Aus-soaring [ <mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.base64.com.au> 
mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.base64.com.au] On Behalf Of Ron Sanders
Sent: Sunday, 27 August 2017 6:22 PM
To: Gliding Australia Forum < <mailto:gfafo...@glidingaustralia.org> 
gfafo...@glidingaustralia.org>; Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in 
Australia. < <mailto:aus-soaring@lists.base64.com.au> 
aus-soaring@lists.base64.com.au>
Subject: [Aus-soaring] American Soaring Symposia

 

Any body got any idea where is can get any of these publications from  the 
seventies??

Wil Schumann did a clean up of a libelle that i would like to read about again.

 

Ron

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Re: [Aus-soaring] [gfaforum] RE: Water bags and GFA forum

[Noel Roediger]

Dear Gary and Peter.

 

All of the early GRP sailplanes were built using balsa as meat in the sandwich.

 

The penny should have dropped, when the balsa sheets began to show during 
winter, that the structure was not water proof and the balsa was not 
hermitically sealed.

 

When water ballast was  used in these sailplanes it was contained in bags – 
with the exception of the Cirrus – that were made from waterproof material that 
could not be securely bonded.

 

My LS3 was delivered with bags made from plastic shower curtain material. Those 
bags were replaced – at minimal cost  by LS. They were made from sheets of 
fabric re-enforced rubber which had vulcanised seams which never failed but 
after about three years during a form2 inspection when laid out on the lawn 
applying the pressure they resembled monstrous soaker hoses. The internal 
rubber had perished. The next bags “Guaranteed not to leak” didn’t even get 
into the wings. They leaked more than the previous ones.

The last pair I fitted were made by Clipper Plastics. They were much better 
made and welded. I sold Vixen to TC. How did they stand up Terry?

 

While the use of water ballast can cause serious issues sometimes it creates 
humorous events.

 

Some years ago – at the Mildura Mini Comps – TT arrived with his crew and newly 
purchased  Kestrel XC.  Mildura had no running water and a tanker supplied 
water for the competitors who filled up their 25l containers from it and then 
ballasted their sailplanes before briefing was held and because they were so 
heavy generally put a tip on the ground held down by a tyre.

 

After briefing the TT team headed off to tow XC to the launch point. TT driving 
the ute, XC on tow and Fairlie on his tip. As the tow rope became taught TT 
noticed Fairlie trying to lift Charlies tip.  Now Fairlie – in her prime – 
could lift and carry a small horse but try as she could, the tip of Charlie 
would not leave the ground. In a fit of ‘something’ TT leapt out of the ute and 
threw himself across the top wing tip. His weight nearly bent Charlies tip to 
the ground before their combined  effort raised his stbd. wing so  he rotated 
around his wheel and the port tip impacted with the ground. The shock of that 
was sufficient to flick Fairlie off and she landed flat on her back – seriously 
winded – near the edge of the scrub.

 

The arrival of Charlies port wing on the also ground resulted in another 
remarkable spectacle.

 

As TT lay across Charlies tip an audible rumble was heard which increased in 
intensity  and then a cylinder of water appeared from Charlies stbd. wing bag 
hole and erupted into his luggage locker, then into his cockpit until it was 
entirely filled.

 

A lot of truly remarkable events occurred at the Mini Comps. A lot more 
available. How to derig a Nimbus with full ballast. Stealing a tug. Aero tow 
retrieves, six-shooter ants  etc..

 

Do you want to read about them?

 

Regards

 

Noel.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

From: Gary Stevenson [  
mailto:gstev...@bigpond.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, August 29, 2017 9:35 PM
To: 'Peter Champness'
Cc: 'Gliding Australia Forum'
Subject: [gfaforum] RE: Water bags and GFA forum

 

Hi Peter,

‘Fraid I can’t help you with you perceived communication problem. I have 
received your general posts quite OK in the past. Tim Shirley is the GFA IT 
manager.

Re gliders with tanks as opposed to bags, NR has given you the answer in a 
nutshell, buy please see my comment below about bags.  Bags can perish and let 
go inside the wing too!

Regardless, In both cases the ballast system must be checked for integrity, at 
each Form 2 inspection, and if the system does not pass the test – there will 
be a leak, as shown by failure of a pressure test -  then it is a matter of 
determining the location of the leak, and fixing it – for integral tanks this 
could in many cases prove to be very difficult – or simply not flying with 
water.

Noel mentioned foam, but some early gliders used balsa (eg Libelle), but 
regardless, ingress of water into this core part of the structure is not good, 
and the end result is exactly the same. In the case of the Libelle, at survey 
(as opposed to annual), inspection, a 50 m diameter core is cut from a 
specified location in the underside of  the wing and examined. Then regardless 
of the inspection outcome, a repair must  be done to fix the hole. In passing,  
I need to add here that Libelle’s use bags.

What is interesting with the Libelle, is the question of where  the NEXT hole 
should be cut, say 1000 hours down the track, at the following survey. I 
suggest that for obvious (to me), reasons this next core should be taken from a 
(slightly??), different location, but this is NOT specified. Would maintenance 
guru’s like to make comment here?

 

Regards,

Gary

 

 

From: Peter Champness [  
mailto:plchampn...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, 29 August 2017 8:38 PM
To: Gary 

Re: [Aus-soaring] [gfaforum] RE: water bags and tanks

[Noel Roediger]

Finally we come to the important practical question of “good ballast bags”. It 
would seem that these are becoming hard to source, due to potential liability 
issues. Who  in Australia, or elsewhere, are making new replacement  bags?

 

Regards,

Gary

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

From: Aus-soaring [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.base64.com.au] On Behalf Of 
Noel Roediger
Sent: Sunday, 27 August 2017 10:18 PM
To: 'Anthony Smith'; 'Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.'; 
'Gliding Australia Forum'
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] [gfaforum] RE: American Soaring Symposia

 

Thanks Anthony.

 

The final question asked of Wil re assymetric water ballast merits further 
comment particularly for those who fly sailplanes with bags instead of tanks.

 

I believe good ballast bags far outweigh the problems exhibited by rigid tanks 
which often leak into the surrounding structure.

 

Having said that I don’t know of any “bagged” tank that is not extended and 
held in place by a rear cord.

 

In reality bags should be held by two cords. One at its rear as is the norm but 
also one at its front to eliminate the possibility of its leading edge falling 
over the aft edge and becoming twisted.

 

 

 

Regards

 

Noel.

 

From: Anthony Smith [mailto:anthony.sm...@adelaide.on.net] 
Sent: Sunday, August 27, 2017 6:32 PM
To: 'Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.'; 'Gliding 
Australia Forum'
Subject: [gfaforum] RE: [Aus-soaring] American Soaring Symposia

 

Part of the Wil Schumann paper is here:

 

http://www.betsybyars.com/guy/soaring_symposia/72-modif.html 

 

From: Aus-soaring [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.base64.com.au] On Behalf Of 
Ron Sanders
Sent: Sunday, 27 August 2017 6:22 PM
To: Gliding Australia Forum <gfafo...@glidingaustralia.org>; Discussion of 
issues relating to Soaring in Australia. <aus-soaring@lists.base64.com.au>
Subject: [Aus-soaring] American Soaring Symposia

 

Any body got any idea where is can get any of these publications from  the 
seventies??

Wil Schumann did a clean up of a libelle that i would like to read about again.

 

Ron

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Re: [Aus-soaring] [gfaforum] RE: water bags and tanks

[Noel Roediger]

No. You're not.

I believe nothing has ever been written about the consequence of flying with 
water ballast with authority.

Having started this thread I am part way through a post to qualify what I've 
said so far and that should be in the next few days.

Noel.
 
-Original Message-
From: Aus-soaring [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.base64.com.au] On Behalf Of 
DMcD
Sent: Monday, August 28, 2017 7:53 PM
To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] [gfaforum] RE: water bags and tanks

> It appears that you have indeed looked in the wrong places.
> By looking at “Advanced Soaring Made Easy” you would have found the
> following:
>
> Pilots new to water ballast should realise that partly ballasted 
> gliders tend to create problems on take off due to sloshing of water.

I've had a reasonably long look in my copy of your book and can't find that 
sentence in the section on water ballast. There's not an index as such so I am 
not sure if the above is taken from somewhere else, out of the ballast section.

The information in my copy is a reasonable technical discussion on the "why" of 
water ballast but there's little on the practical side, the "how".

Am I looking in the wrong place?

D
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Re: [Aus-soaring] [gfaforum] RE: American Soaring Symposia

[Noel Roediger]

Thanks Anthony.

 

The final question asked of Wil re assymetric water ballast merits further 
comment particularly for those who fly sailplanes with bags instead of tanks.

 

I believe good ballast bags far outweigh the problems exhibited by rigid tanks 
which often leak into the surrounding structure.

 

Having said that I don’t know of any “bagged” tank that is not extended and 
held in place by a rear cord.

 

In reality bags should be held by two cords. One at its rear as is the norm but 
also one at its front to eliminate the possibility of its leading edge falling 
over the aft edge and becoming twisted.

 

Generally a sailplane will not display an imbalance until stalled. One wing 
doesn’t know it’s heavier than its partner until then.

 

A number of prototype sailplanes have been lost while testing their ability to 
remain controllable at the stall with max. imbalance

 

Regards

 

Noel.

 

From: Anthony Smith [mailto:anthony.sm...@adelaide.on.net] 
Sent: Sunday, August 27, 2017 6:32 PM
To: 'Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.'; 'Gliding 
Australia Forum'
Subject: [gfaforum] RE: [Aus-soaring] American Soaring Symposia

 

Part of the Wil Schumann paper is here:

 

http://www.betsybyars.com/guy/soaring_symposia/72-modif.html 

 

From: Aus-soaring [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.base64.com.au] On Behalf Of 
Ron Sanders
Sent: Sunday, 27 August 2017 6:22 PM
To: Gliding Australia Forum ; Discussion of 
issues relating to Soaring in Australia. 
Subject: [Aus-soaring] American Soaring Symposia

 

Any body got any idea where is can get any of these publications from  the 
seventies??

Wil Schumann did a clean up of a libelle that i would like to read about again.

 

Ron

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[Aus-soaring] FW: [gfaforum] JB

[Noel Roediger]

 

 

From: Noel Roediger [mailto:roedi...@internode.on.net] 
Sent: Sunday, August 27, 2017 11:07 AM
To: aus-soar...@lists.internode.on.net; gfafo...@glidingaustralia.org
Subject: [gfaforum] JB

 

Dear All.

 

Remiss of me not to advise John Brook went to his God last Friday week.

 

Many of you will remember him flying the 301 Libelle he shared with David Jones 
and later his LS3 at many Nats. and State comps.

 

Over the last 4 years his health deteriorated with the onset of Alzheimers.

 

His death was not announced and private funeral service was held for family and 
close friends.

 

On a happier note, the latest Australian Flying includes  a good article on 
Harry Schneider.

 

Regards

 

Noel.

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Re: [Aus-soaring] High speed glider landing

[Noel Roediger]

I agree Mark and disagree with your comments Mike.

 

The shuttles were capable of rotating to an AoA after re-entry so that they 
could slowed sufficiently to extend enclosed wings and be turned into a much 
safer flying device that operated with much more flexibility on its return to 
Terra Firma.

 

Noel.

 

From: Aus-soaring [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.base64.com.au] On Behalf Of 
Mark Newton
Sent: Friday, May 12, 2017 7:18 PM
To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] High speed glider landing

 

Might be fine for a booster, but not so good for an orbiter, where you’d need 
to take many expensive kilograms of landing fuel all the way into orbit and 
back.

 

 

  - mark

 

 

On May 12, 2017, at 11:07 AM, Mike Borgelt  
wrote:

 

About  how the Shuttle used to land except the vehicle is a lot smaller.



I think wings are the most useless things on spaceships though. Just land it 
vertically on rocket thrust as SpaceX is now doing routinely.


Mike


At 09:54 AM 5/12/2017, you wrote:



https://www.gizmodo.com.au/2017/05/top-secret-air-force-spaceplane-lands-with-sonic-boom-after-two-years-in-orbit/
 
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Borgelt Instruments - design & manufacture of quality soaring instrumentation 
since 1978
www.borgeltinstruments.com  
tel:   07 4635 5784 overseas: int+61-7-4635 5784
mob: 042835 5784 :  int+61-42835 5784
P O Box 4607, Toowoomba East, QLD 4350, Australia 

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Re: [Aus-soaring] CASA Avmed discussion - due Thursday 30 March

[Noel Roediger]

Bev reckoned I was sailing too close to the wind so, for the time being, I’ve 
deleted the anus prick.

 

Noel.   

 

From: Aus-soaring [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.base64.com.au] On Behalf Of 
Noel Roediger
Sent: Tuesday, March 28, 2017 10:01 PM
To: 'Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.'
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] CASA Avmed discussion - due Thursday 30 March

 

Dear Jo.

 

Sincere thanks from me – and I’m sure from all others re your advice on the 
AVMed issue.

 

I’ve prepared a loaded  response that will put a bee up their bum but won’t 
send until Bev wakes and vetts it tomorrow and then I’ll copy to this site.

 

Can you fwd. your private email address please so we can communicate off site.

 

Love

 

Noel.

 

From: Aus-soaring [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.base64.com.au] On Behalf Of 
Jo Pocklington
Sent: Monday, March 27, 2017 6:20 PM
To: 'Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.'
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] CASA Avmed discussion - due Thursday 30 March

 

You could simply say something like "the AOPA proposal dated 23 August 2016 
regarding Class 2 Medical reform is supported by me" – regards Jo

 

From: Aus-soaring [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.base64.com.au] On Behalf Of 
Peter Champness
Sent: Monday, 27 March 2017 6:17 PM
To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] CASA Avmed discussion - due Thursday 30 March

 

Thanks,

 

Is there a generic reply which I could copy? 

 

On Mon, Mar 27, 2017 at 5:56 PM, Jo Pocklington <jopockling...@bigpond.com> 
wrote:

Hi Mike, deadline is Thursday 30 March.  SAAA & RA-Aus submissions are not yet 
available.  AOPA put forward a proposal on 23 August 2016 (attached), which 
many are supporting. 

GFA tug pilots could be affected.  Even though they can operate on an RAMPC, 
RAMPC requires fulfilling unconditional private driver licence requirements + a 
visit to a Doctor + filling in a medical history form + only being eligible in 
the absence of certain conditions - although these conditions do not preclude 
an unconditional driver's licence. There are 53+ disqualifying conditions for 
an RAMPC including a cancer in the last 5 years, angina, coronary bypass 
surgery, ECG changes, insulin treated diabetes, sleep apnoea...  RAMPC is 
therefore more restrictive than a Class 2 Medical, eg a healthy private pilot 
with a recent history of prostate cancer is ineligible to obtain a RAMPC, but 
that pilot is unlikely to have difficulty obtaining a Class 2 Medical 
Certificate. 

Submissions to avmed...@casa.gov.au and should include in the subject line:  
'AvMed discussion paper' - regards Jo

 

From: Aus-soaring [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.base64.com.au] On Behalf Of 
Mike Borgelt
Sent: Monday, 27 March 2017 3:00 PM
To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] CASA Avmed discussion paper


OK how many have put in a submission to CASA Avmed re the current discussion 
paper? You have until 31st March.(the end of this week).

If you don't, there is a possibility you will be required to have a RAMPC to 
fly gliders. You can go to recreationalflying.com to see the trouble that 
causes because if you can't get one for a number of relatively trivial reasons 
you will be up for a Class 2 medical with a DAME.

If you don't put in a submission, preferably in strong support of the AOPA 
proposal which has been linked to here a while ago you get to lose all bitching 
rights and sympathy when CASA AvMed screws you over.

Don't expect GFA to do anything sensible, do it yourself.

Mike
Borgelt Instruments - design & manufacture of quality soaring instrumentation 
since 1978
www.borgeltinstruments.com <http://www.borgeltinstruments.com/> 
tel:   07 4635 5784 overseas: int+61-7-4635 5784 
<tel:+61%207%204635%205784> 
mob: 042835 5784 :  int+61-42835 5784
P O Box 4607, Toowoomba East, QLD 4350, Australia 


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Re: [Aus-soaring] Oratex UL600 and the unexpected

[Noel Roediger]

Years ago - about 1970 - Harry Schneider laid up a sheet of GRP on a base of 
Vorgelat. The cured sheet was nailed up on the Eastern wall of the workshop 
after it had been divided into three sections.

One remained in the original Vorgelat gel-coat and the other two were covered 
respectively with a coat of white and red acrylic lacquer.

The Vorgelat surface began to fail after a short time while that covered by the 
lacquer showed no deterioration until we removed small areas of lacquer then 
failure  occurred as it had on the original surface.

Harry also laid up another small sheet, half of which was on Glasflugel's 
original epoxy gel- coat and the rest on Schwabelac.

After more than 20 yrs. neither surface showed sign of cracking though the 
epoxy gel did display surface chalking which could be restored to its original 
gloss with a cut and polish.

That surface did have a finite life and eventually needed a coat of paint when 
the primary structure began to appear as a light shade of grey.

Rudi Lindner realised this issue early on after being involved in the design 
and manufacture of all the Phoenix' and so - when he was involved in the 
Phoebus production decided to use P/U as a surface finish over gel-coat.

My first introduction to problems with P/U came when Dave Fergusson asked me to 
advise on an issue re. his syndicate Phoebus C  which had apparently developed 
white chicken pox. 

When we pulled the wings out of the trailer their upper surfaces  were covered 
in pimples of various dimensions.  So were all other upper surfaces and it 
transpired she'd been put in her trailer without being dried off after a rain 
shower.

The only conclusion I could make was the P/U was not water proof and the rain 
droplets could, in fact, pass through it into a hygroscopic primer.  When the 
structure was interned in its trailer and heated the only way the absorbed 
water could go was to its outer surface.

The water could not reverse its direction slowly enough to escape through  the 
P/U and so created the pimples.

Based on this I suggested Dave get the finest hypo syringe - insert it into the 
pimple and use its suction to withdraw the water.

Can't remember the outcome.

If you download any of the aircraft re-covering manuals that use woven 
synthetic fabrics there will be a "WARNING".

If this fabric is exposed to UV without prescribed sealing and painting it will 
become un-useable in a very short time.

However, the ORATEX manual claims its material is un-affected.

I'm in the process of replying to Ian McPhee's request re synthetic re-covering 
and will post to all when completed.

Stand-by.

Noel.








-Original Message-
From: Aus-soaring [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.base64.com.au] On Behalf Of 
DMcD
Sent: Thursday, March 16, 2017 12:31 PM
To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Oratex UL600 and the unexpected

Regarding the fading of the red Oratex……

Back a few years ago, a major supplier of paraglider Nylon brought out a fluoro 
range… paraglider pilots love(d) that sort of thing… but they found that some 
colours were very badly affected by UV compared with others and some of these 
fluoro colours were degrading within a season.

Paragliders are more critical because the fabric is so lightweight but back in 
the litigious 80s, a pair of US airline pilots parked a Quicksilver (?) in the 
open for some time and were killed when the fabric tore. The fabric supplier 
was successfully sued by their widows on the basis that airline pilots are not 
expected to know about UV degradation.

I have also heard from fabric suppliers, that white is to be avoided compared 
with darker colours because the white requires more bleaching from the base 
greige cloth and that makes the fibres weaker.

Water absorption makes many fabrics weaker too. And you get mould wicking into 
the fibres over time, especially in humid climates. All this means that the 
best idea is to put a full range of samples on your hangar roof and forget 
about them for 15 years while you sit inside and worry.

Interesting topic though.

D
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Re: [Aus-soaring] Oratex UL600 and the unexpected

[Noel Roediger]

No.

It's in our Stemme hangar at Gawler.

Normally I can supervise a survey and help out within a month to 6 weeks.

This time it's likely to reach 6 mnths.

No matter.

The SGC provide a great service.

Noel. 

-Original Message-
From: Aus-soaring [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.base64.com.au] On Behalf
Of Gary Stevenson
Sent: Wednesday, March 15, 2017 8:37 PM
To: 'Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.'
Cc: bobgrimst...@compuserve.com
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Oratex UL600 and the unexpected

Hi Noel,
Loved your story especially "... manufactured in hell by Satan himself."
Surprise! Thank God for engineering conservatism and the notion of "factor
of safety".
Look forward to your next instalment.
Where exactly are you doing this work? Surely Col is NSW based?
Looks like the "local" expertise For Oratex will all be in SA, but it is
early day yet. How long have these products been on the market?

Cheers,
Gary

-Original Message-
From: Aus-soaring [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.base64.com.au] On Behalf
Of Noel Roediger
Sent: Wednesday, 15 March 2017 8:33 PM
To: 'Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.'
Cc: bobgrimst...@compuserve.com
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Oratex UL600 and the unexpected

Dear All.

Colin Turner and I made the decision last year to recover a Scout Gliding
Club Falke fuselages with "ORATEX", (VH-GVZ) after downloading their
instruction manual and spending time with Redmond Quinn who has run trials
using a sample kit.

This is included as part of its 50yr inspection.

Colin ordered all material and tools from the factory in Germany and they
arrived at his front door about 1 week later.

A real surprise was the low airfreight cost compared with other systems due
to no component being listed as "Dangerous Goods" and that alone is a good
reason to use it.

Along with that, nothing within the system exudes any noxious or toxic
fumes.

However - when the fabric was removed from fuselage  and steel tubes cleaned
- it appeared that it had been manufactured in Hell by Satan himself.

Minor dents appeared where there was no possible cause - some welds were not
completed and serious corrosion was found in some of the lower tubes and
there was evidence of repairs from a heavy landing.

Neither the original ??? European log book or its Australian counterpart
indicate any damage or repairs.

Needless to say we were getting rapidly out of our depth so just about every
GFA/CASA qualified person in SA were called upon to cast their opinion.

It was unanimously agreed the fuselage had been built using slightly damaged
steel tube and the prufer had overlooked some weld areas.

Colin purchased a 6mm dia. Camera and initially we had NFI what we were
looking at.

When the offending tubes were cut out the corrosion displayed by the camera
could be easily identified.

More in a separate post.

Any-way, I reckon we'll be ready, by the end of next week, to commence the
"ORATEX" covering.

In reaching this point we performed the following after the fabric was
removed.

All of the steel tube structure was cleaned back to bare metal.

Corroded tubes were cut out and new tubes welded in place after an inner
survey was conducted using a camera.

Any surface corrosion that occurred after initial cleaning was scrubbed off
using fair dinkum "Scotch Brite" - cleaned with "Prepsol" - and then
immediately sprayed with "Poly Fibre" epoxy primer.

The reason for this results from my previous experience using the Ceconite
process.

The primer does not separate from the steel.

We've still got to manufacture and fit new rudder cables and re-assemble a
few other internal items and the - off we go.

Redmond and Steve Kittel have been called upon to assist.

Steve recently attended an "ORATEX" covering course and, along with Redmond,
will be invaluable assets.

Keep watching.

Noel.















-Original Message-
From: Aus-soaring [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.base64.com.au] On Behalf
Of dam...@quietflight.com.au
Sent: Wednesday, March 15, 2017 3:55 PM
To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
Cc: bobgrimst...@compuserve.com
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Oratex UL600

Bob Grimstead who owns my old Fournier RF4 just recovered his fuselage in
what I think is this Oratex product. Have copied him in on this
communication. Very good result by my observation.
Regards
Damien O'Reilly  

Sent from my iPad

> On 15 Mar 2017, at 1:11 PM, Peter Champness <plchampn...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Has any one tried this covering material?
> 
> IS there an agent in Australia?
> ___
> Aus-soaring mailing list
> Aus-soaring@lists.base64.com.au
> http://lists.base64.com.au/listinfo/aus-soaring

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Re: [Aus-soaring] Oratex UL600 and the unexpected

[Noel Roediger]

Dear All.

Colin Turner and I made the decision last year to recover a Scout Gliding
Club Falke fuselages with "ORATEX", (VH-GVZ) after downloading their
instruction manual and spending time with Redmond Quinn who has run trials
using a sample kit.

This is included as part of its 50yr inspection.

Colin ordered all material and tools from the factory in Germany and they
arrived at his front door about 1 week later.

A real surprise was the low airfreight cost compared with other systems due
to no component being listed as "Dangerous Goods" and that alone is a good
reason to use it.

Along with that, nothing within the system exudes any noxious or toxic
fumes.

However - when the fabric was removed from fuselage  and steel tubes cleaned
- it appeared that it had been manufactured in Hell by Satan himself.

Minor dents appeared where there was no possible cause - some welds were not
completed and serious corrosion was found in some of the lower tubes and
there was evidence of repairs from a heavy landing.

Neither the original ??? European log book or its Australian counterpart
indicate any damage or repairs.

Needless to say we were getting rapidly out of our depth so just about every
GFA/CASA qualified person in SA were called upon to cast their opinion.

It was unanimously agreed the fuselage had been built using slightly damaged
steel tube and the prufer had overlooked some weld areas.

Colin purchased a 6mm dia. Camera and initially we had NFI what we were
looking at.

When the offending tubes were cut out the corrosion displayed by the camera
could be easily identified.

More in a separate post.

Any-way, I reckon we'll be ready, by the end of next week, to commence the
"ORATEX" covering.

In reaching this point we performed the following after the fabric was
removed.

All of the steel tube structure was cleaned back to bare metal.

Corroded tubes were cut out and new tubes welded in place after an inner
survey was conducted using a camera.

Any surface corrosion that occurred after initial cleaning was scrubbed off
using fair dinkum "Scotch Brite" - cleaned with "Prepsol" - and then
immediately sprayed
with "Poly Fibre" epoxy primer.

The reason for this results from my previous experience using the Ceconite
process.

The primer does not separate from the steel.

We've still got to manufacture and fit new rudder cables and re-assemble a
few other internal items and the - off we go.

Redmond and Steve Kittel have been called upon to assist.

Steve recently attended an "ORATEX" covering course and, along with Redmond,
will be invaluable assets.

Keep watching.

Noel.















-Original Message-
From: Aus-soaring [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.base64.com.au] On Behalf
Of dam...@quietflight.com.au
Sent: Wednesday, March 15, 2017 3:55 PM
To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
Cc: bobgrimst...@compuserve.com
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Oratex UL600

Bob Grimstead who owns my old Fournier RF4 just recovered his fuselage in
what I think is this Oratex product. Have copied him in on this
communication. Very good result by my observation.
Regards
Damien O'Reilly  

Sent from my iPad

> On 15 Mar 2017, at 1:11 PM, Peter Champness  wrote:
> 
> Has any one tried this covering material?
> 
> IS there an agent in Australia?
> ___
> Aus-soaring mailing list
> Aus-soaring@lists.base64.com.au
> http://lists.base64.com.au/listinfo/aus-soaring

___
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Re: [Aus-soaring] Randolph thinners

[Noel Roediger]

Ian.

 

Google Phoenix Lacquers and Paints.

 

They manufacture equivalents to Randolph at about 25% the cost.

 

Regards

 

Noel.

 

From: Aus-soaring [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.base64.com.au] On Behalf Of 
Ian Mc Phee
Sent: Friday, February 10, 2017 8:59 AM
To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
Subject: [Aus-soaring] Randolph thinners

 

I am newish to Randolph having used stitts poly fibre in the past

 

At about $93 a gal look  for both green nitrate thinners and similar silver 
butrate thinners makes me think there must be something similar in Australia at 
a more reasonable able price. 

 

One suggestion is can use acrylic thinners but I notice the green nitrate 
thinners is mostly acetone. 

 

Has anybody had experience out there? Anybody  been  to Oshkosh workshop o  
Randolph? 

 

I can say the thinner for Superseam glue is MEK and this can be much cheaper 
from the plumbing supply place as is used on PVC sewer pipes as a cleaner 
before gluing. You can order 4 litres of clear if not I  stock. 

 

Ian McPhee 

0428847642 

Box 657 Box 657 Byron Bay NSW 2481 

 

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Re: [Aus-soaring] Randolph thinners

[Noel Roediger]

Forgot to add.

If  you're dealing with any hazardous material download its Safety Data
Sheet

Noel.

-Original Message-
From: Aus-soaring [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.base64.com.au] On Behalf
Of Noel Roediger
Sent: Friday, February 10, 2017 11:27 AM
To: 'Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.'
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Randolph thinners

I believe you are referring to MEKP - the catalyst for polyester and
vinylester resins.

If your using the stuff make sure you've an eyewash kit with you.

>From recall you've got about 4secs. to flush your eye/s before irreversible
damage begins and after 10secs. your blind.

It has another fatal characteristic.

After a while, particularly if stored above 20deg.c. it becomes unstable and
needs to be regarded as a UXB.

A friend had a bottle of the stuff explode in his modelling shed.

Fortunately he wasn't in the shed when it happened.

Noel. 
-Original Message-
From: Aus-soaring [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.base64.com.au] On Behalf
Of DMcD
Sent: Friday, February 10, 2017 10:09 AM
To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Randolph thinners

>>MEK is about 1000 times the toxicity of acetone which isn't terrific
itself.

I saw a safety note about MEK some years ago. The note said that if you get
a splash of MEK in your eye, you have about 15 seconds to wash it out. If
you don't do this, the MEK will eat away at the cornea and at some time in
the future, possibly 15-25 years, you'll start to lose the sight in that
eye.

I have not seen this warning since, but I avoid MEK if at all possible, and
if not, use serious eye protection like a full face mask rather than goggles
with ventilation holes.

We used some MEK based ink in an industrial inkjet printer some years ago
and abandoned it because it gave everyone in the room a headache.

D
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Re: [Aus-soaring] Randolph thinners

[Noel Roediger]

I believe you are referring to MEKP - the catalyst for polyester and
vinylester resins.

If your using the stuff make sure you've an eyewash kit with you.

>From recall you've got about 4secs. to flush your eye/s before irreversible
damage begins and after 10secs. your blind.

It has another fatal characteristic.

After a while, particularly if stored above 20deg.c. it becomes unstable and
needs to be regarded as a UXB.

A friend had a bottle of the stuff explode in his modelling shed.

Fortunately he wasn't in the shed when it happened.

Noel. 
-Original Message-
From: Aus-soaring [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.base64.com.au] On Behalf
Of DMcD
Sent: Friday, February 10, 2017 10:09 AM
To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Randolph thinners

>>MEK is about 1000 times the toxicity of acetone which isn't terrific
itself.

I saw a safety note about MEK some years ago. The note said that if you get
a splash of MEK in your eye, you have about 15 seconds to wash it out. If
you don't do this, the MEK will eat away at the cornea and at some time in
the future, possibly 15-25 years, you'll start to lose the sight in that
eye.

I have not seen this warning since, but I avoid MEK if at all possible, and
if not, use serious eye protection like a full face mask rather than goggles
with ventilation holes.

We used some MEK based ink in an industrial inkjet printer some years ago
and abandoned it because it gave everyone in the room a headache.

D
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Re: [Aus-soaring] MEMBERSHIP AND A WORLD REVIEW

[Noel Roediger]

Jim.

 

I have personal knowledge and experience to back up my statement.

 

Check accident / incident reports re. glider pilots and RAus. pilots up to CASA 
PPL’s.

 

Noel.

From: Aus-soaring [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.base64.com.au] On Behalf Of 
James McDowall
Sent: Sunday, February 5, 2017 8:38 PM
To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] MEMBERSHIP AND A WORLD REVIEW

 

Hi Noel,

What is the basis of your reservation? It is worth remembering that there are 
many people deemed to be qualified in all sorts of endeavours that you and I 
would not regard as competent but the law and other conventions regards as 
qualified.

 

On Sun, Feb 5, 2017 at 6:34 PM, Noel Roediger <roedi...@internode.on.net> wrote:

Jim.

 

Your suggestion implies you think those pilots you refer to up to PPL are 
qualified to operate freely within Australian airspace.

 

I assure you – unreservedly – many are not. 

 

For that reason your idea will not work.

 

Noel.

From: Aus-soaring [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.base64.com.au] On Behalf Of 
James McDowall
Sent: Sunday, February 5, 2017 5:10 PM
To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] MEMBERSHIP AND A WORLD REVIEW

 

What about anybody with a RA-Aus pilot certificate and anybody with a RPL, PPL, 
etc with an endorsement for self launcher?

 

On Sun, Feb 5, 2017 at 4:06 PM, Richard Frawley <rjfraw...@gmail.com> wrote:

i put my hand up to take this to the exec. who else (must be GFA member) i can 
count on for support?

 

step 1: anyone cleared to fly a Self Launcher automatically has L2 OPS 
annotated on GPC (will that work?) 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

On 5 Feb 2017, at 4:10 pm, James McDowall <james.mcdowal...@gmail.com> wrote:

 

Elsewhere in this discussion it was noted that the majority of GFA new 
registrations last year were powered. The interests of these people need to be 
accommodated NOW, not when the powerless gliders can't be launched because it 
is too expensive or I just cant move my zimmer frame fast enough to run a wing. 
This will encourage investment. Also GFA needs to develop a system of 
permitting retrofits of power systems (by using the experimental certificates 
provisions) to add value to un-powered gliders. Cutting loose independent 
operators (from clubs) will remove the liability that CFI's and RTO's fear. 
That is operators hold a GPL or GPC issued by GFA and simply agree to fly 
according to the operational arrangements approved by CASA under CAO 95.4.

I am reminded of a couple of quotes attributed to Edmund Burke:

"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do 
nothing." and "All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good 
conscience to remain silent."

but most all a common saying:


“Some people make things happen. Some people watch things happen. And then 
there are those who wonder, 'What the hell just happened?” 


I think most of the gliding fraternity will wake up one day and "what the hell 
happened"?

 

On Sun, Feb 5, 2017 at 3:05 PM, Richard Frawley <rjfraw...@gmail.com> wrote:

It is well know that the biggest resistance by far to the current GPC change 
(which was a good step forward) was by instructors and especially CFI’S and 
RTO’s

 

I would be more than happy to help champion the issuance of GPC as equivalent 
to Level 2 Independent ops, but I can tell you now it will the CFI’s and Panels 
that will resist the most

 

Given however the small number of self launchers, this requirements is still 
moot.

 

As long as you still need others (tugs, wing runners, ropes) there is no true 
independence and their in lies the root cause.

 

Bring on the world of electric self launchers and true independence, the sooner 
the better and even then it only really comes if its private owner or small 
syndicate.

 

Club aircraft will always be over protected. This is the nature of a shared 
asset. Shared asserts by human nature are never as well looked after as those 
owned. (rental cars + public transport vs the private car)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

On 5 Feb 2017, at 2:28 pm, Future Aviation Pty. Ltd. <ec...@internode.on.net> 
wrote:

 

Hi James, hello all

 

I have argued along exactly the same lines when I was on the panel as the head 
coach for SA.

 

Coming from a different country I was bewildered that there is no formal 
qualification for glider pilots in Australia. I argued 

for a Glider Pilot Licence (GPL) instead of a Glider Pilot Certificate (GPC) 
but I was told that only CASA has the authority 

to issue licences. The GFA wanted to retain control and for mainly this reason 
we are now stuck with a certificate rather 

than a licence. A certificate is (almost) worthless but a licence implies that 
you can operate free of interference by others.

 

For years (or should I say decades) I have argued that 

Re: [Aus-soaring] MEMBERSHIP AND A WORLD REVIEW

[Noel Roediger]

Matt.

 

You’ve basically answered your own question.

 

Re-read my response to Jim.

 

Noel.

From: Aus-soaring [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.base64.com.au] On Behalf Of 
Matthew Scutter
Sent: Sunday, February 5, 2017 7:37 PM
To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] MEMBERSHIP AND A WORLD REVIEW

 

I found it thoroughly entertaining being required to do a site check, in order 
to fly my own glider, despite having just flown myself into that site in a 
powered aircraft.

 

I was for a while a member of Ziggy and Marta's 'Just Soaring' club while I was 
doing the competition circuit without a real base. They kindly waived the 5$/yr 
membership dues in exchange for putting my flights on the OLC in their club 
name. I never actually went to their site. Unfortunately no longer operating(?)

 

I was also confused as to who exactly Noel was referring to as not being 
qualified to fly in exactly what airspace. Do we actually have more privileges 
currently than RAAUS & RPL's? We can (occasionally) get clearances into 
controlled airspace, which I believe RAAUS & RPL's can't do without special 
additional endorsement? Not that they've ever given me my requests, but perhaps 
asking for FL180 through a 4500ft CTA step was a bridge too far

 

 

On Sun, Feb 5, 2017 at 7:46 PM, Mark Newton  wrote:

On 5 Feb 2017, at 3:35 PM, Richard Frawley  wrote:
>
> It is well know that the biggest resistance by far to the current GPC change 
> (which was a good step forward) was by instructors and especially CFI’S and 
> RTO’s
>
> I would be more than happy to help champion the issuance of GPC as equivalent 
> to Level 2 Independent ops, but I can tell you now it will the CFI’s and 
> Panels that will resist the most

Needs to be equivalent to CASA RPL (plus or minus a short transition training 
course).

GPC should be the bridge between disciplines. In the same way that a qualified 
RAAus pilot can fill out a form and do a checkride to get an RPL, a qualified 
GFA pilot should be able to do likewise.

(If the GPC and RPL are equivalent, and a keen pilot can’t organize a crew, at 
they can go to their local GA or RAAus school and rent a Eurofox or something 
instead)


> Given however the small number of self launchers, this requirements is still 
> moot.
> As long as you still need others (tugs, wing runners, ropes) there is no true 
> independence and their in lies the root cause.

The issue isn’t whether a pilot can be independent from anyone at all; it’s 
whether they can be independent of a club.

There are regularly aircraft listed in the classifieds section of Gliding 
Australia for less than $30k. Three mates should be able to tip in $10,000 
each, and own an aircraft cheaper than a jet-ski. Having bought it, there 
should be no reason why they need to get involved in any gliding clubs anymore, 
if they don’t want to.

In the same way that getting a launch at a comp is a simple commercial 
transaction, there should be no reason why syndicate pilots can’t front-up at 
any random gliding operation and say, “Here’s ten bucks, can you squeeze me 
into your winch launch queue?” without also submitting to club bylaws and the 
judgement of an instructor.

You don’t need to be a club member to operate a GA or RAAus aircraft out of 
Gawler. Why should you need to be a club member to operate a glider off the 
same runway?

(Some clubs insist on “site checks” before someone can soar there — Why? GA 
pilots don’t need site checks, why should glider pilots? Shouldn’t unique 
aspects of a site be documented in its ERSA entry, and shouldn’t a pilot's 
training and airmanship be adequate for them to judge their own operational 
risks? If a site’s complexities are treated as some kind of secret data that 
can only be disclosed during a site check, the system is failing)



  - mark


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Re: [Aus-soaring] MEMBERSHIP AND A WORLD REVIEW

[Noel Roediger]

Jim.

 

Your suggestion implies you think those pilots you refer to up to PPL are 
qualified to operate freely within Australian airspace.

 

I assure you – unreservedly – many are not. 

 

For that reason your idea will not work.

 

Noel.

From: Aus-soaring [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.base64.com.au] On Behalf Of 
James McDowall
Sent: Sunday, February 5, 2017 5:10 PM
To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] MEMBERSHIP AND A WORLD REVIEW

 

What about anybody with a RA-Aus pilot certificate and anybody with a RPL, PPL, 
etc with an endorsement for self launcher?

 

On Sun, Feb 5, 2017 at 4:06 PM, Richard Frawley  wrote:

i put my hand up to take this to the exec. who else (must be GFA member) i can 
count on for support?

 

step 1: anyone cleared to fly a Self Launcher automatically has L2 OPS 
annotated on GPC (will that work?) 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

On 5 Feb 2017, at 4:10 pm, James McDowall  wrote:

 

Elsewhere in this discussion it was noted that the majority of GFA new 
registrations last year were powered. The interests of these people need to be 
accommodated NOW, not when the powerless gliders can't be launched because it 
is too expensive or I just cant move my zimmer frame fast enough to run a wing. 
This will encourage investment. Also GFA needs to develop a system of 
permitting retrofits of power systems (by using the experimental certificates 
provisions) to add value to un-powered gliders. Cutting loose independent 
operators (from clubs) will remove the liability that CFI's and RTO's fear. 
That is operators hold a GPL or GPC issued by GFA and simply agree to fly 
according to the operational arrangements approved by CASA under CAO 95.4.

I am reminded of a couple of quotes attributed to Edmund Burke:

"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do 
nothing." and "All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good 
conscience to remain silent."

but most all a common saying:


“Some people make things happen. Some people watch things happen. And then 
there are those who wonder, 'What the hell just happened?” 


I think most of the gliding fraternity will wake up one day and "what the hell 
happened"?

 

On Sun, Feb 5, 2017 at 3:05 PM, Richard Frawley  wrote:

It is well know that the biggest resistance by far to the current GPC change 
(which was a good step forward) was by instructors and especially CFI’S and 
RTO’s

 

I would be more than happy to help champion the issuance of GPC as equivalent 
to Level 2 Independent ops, but I can tell you now it will the CFI’s and Panels 
that will resist the most

 

Given however the small number of self launchers, this requirements is still 
moot.

 

As long as you still need others (tugs, wing runners, ropes) there is no true 
independence and their in lies the root cause.

 

Bring on the world of electric self launchers and true independence, the sooner 
the better and even then it only really comes if its private owner or small 
syndicate.

 

Club aircraft will always be over protected. This is the nature of a shared 
asset. Shared asserts by human nature are never as well looked after as those 
owned. (rental cars + public transport vs the private car)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

On 5 Feb 2017, at 2:28 pm, Future Aviation Pty. Ltd.  
wrote:

 

Hi James, hello all

 

I have argued along exactly the same lines when I was on the panel as the head 
coach for SA.

 

Coming from a different country I was bewildered that there is no formal 
qualification for glider pilots in Australia. I argued 

for a Glider Pilot Licence (GPL) instead of a Glider Pilot Certificate (GPC) 
but I was told that only CASA has the authority 

to issue licences. The GFA wanted to retain control and for mainly this reason 
we are now stuck with a certificate rather 

than a licence. A certificate is (almost) worthless but a licence implies that 
you can operate free of interference by others.

 

For years (or should I say decades) I have argued that the current system is no 
longer appropriate and need urgent fixing. 

Please let me commend Mark Newton for articulating this major problem 
accurately and publicly. He has expressed what 

many disgruntled glider pilots have long complained about privately and what 
has caused a lot of bad publicity for gliding

over the years. I know that it has prevented many other potential aviators to 
join. This will continue until suitably qualified 

pilots can freely operate outside of the supervision of instructors who in many 
cases have much less knowledge, less 

know-how, less experience and far less competence than the pilot(s) involved.

 

I hasten to add that I have not experienced an abuse of power by instructors 
panels or CFIs but I’m aware of the fact that 

this has occurred in other parts of the country. In too many 

Re: [Aus-soaring] gliding the sport

[Noel Roediger]

I've been too busy to respond to this thread until now.

This response is a precis'.

After WW11 the Civil Aviation Authority was formed

Most of the good pilots ex. RAAF/RAF immigrants went into commercial flying
or formed their own aviation business - others went back to their original
professions.

The remainder who wished to remain in salaried aviation positions and
desirous of the authority they missed out on in their military life joined
CAA.

The aggressive reaction of the good guys, when admonished by their
incompetent underlings, is quite understandable.

Nothing has changed.

Gliding in Australia existed a long time before the CAA was formed and a
similar









-Original Message-
From: Aus-soaring [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.base64.com.au] On Behalf
Of emillis prelgauskas
Sent: Monday, January 30, 2017 3:21 PM
To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
Subject: [Aus-soaring] gliding the sport

Thank you all for the delightful conversation at 'GFA negative
advertising..'

I thought I'd start fresh, on some items that move away from that thread
above.

It surprises me that the 'but you are bashing the GFA' legion didn't pipe
up.
Perhaps it was because GFA are bashing themselves up in their Pravda list.

There are diverse views across the glider pilot nation about what GFA is:
- Some see GFA as being the whole of 'the sport'.
- Some see GFA as an administrative benefit or necessity to the sport
- Some (me) see this 67 year old organisation as having had its day and now
being in  its own generated death throes.

For all the reasons already enunciated by others - self destructive,
dictatorial, creating silos of irrelevant hierarchal positions which will
never be filled because there aren't enough volunteers left, and so on.

The biggest hurdle for GFA is the loss within itself in its corporate
knowledge - all the current incumbents came into a fully formed sport and
try to re-imagine it in their own image without a skeric of understanding of
how things came to be. (e.g. they don't know what 'the Valentine Curve' is)
'Those who don't know their history are bound to repeat it'.
  
With the benefit of longevity and a curiosity to track things (yes, I am the
dude who did the quantitative measuring of successful and defunct clubs for
the whole of Australia in the 1970s) I advise -

- In 1949 the GFA was formed to be the barrier between glider pilots and
'the Department'
- where glider pilots said 'WE are the people who know how gliders work,
they are not power planes, so we set rules appropriate to us
- helped by the proposition (a la 'The Castle') that the Australian
Constitution does not regulate aviation (which didn't exist when it was
first written), hence aviation is regulated federally only by the consensus
of the aviation community

- That original bottom up driven model of regulation of the sport by the
sport, in the best examples of participatory democracy, lasted until 1981
- By then the sport had grown to 100 clubs, about 5000 pilots, and
enthusiasm and volunteer inputs to 'our sport' which got it there and was
propelling it even higher
- So GFA has never been 'the sport', it has always been the external
peripheral administrative element that we 'needed to have', and was thus
always kept as small as possible.

- So in 1981 the world changed, yes Richard, you are right. The system was
re-written and has been re-written several more times since, by incumbents
of their day who saw a great sport, and thought re-imagining it in their own
image would both serve the sport and themselves well.

- So gliding the sport declined to 2000 pilots in 50 or so clubs, with the
unstated direction being the demise of the small clubs (less than 20
members), leaving commercial servicing, schools and big clubs.

We are indeed on track in that direction.

The barriers to achieving the goals of that objective (a more 'professional'
sport) is that it is being pressed onto the old model of volunteer cadre to
achieve.
And people not being stupid, say things (as per the previous thread) ' 'why
would I work at making my kind of gliding fail or be inaccessible?', and
stuff like that.

Gliding is not a franchise that GFA owns. So people choose to bale out when
the onerous impositions exceed the benefit to them, assessed against their
definition of 'the sport'. With many then going to other sport aviation; a
barrier to hoped-for flow the other way. (Their tales of woe unimpress
aviators from other sport)

GFA does not control gliding, despite continuous threats and intimidation
issued by it/them. Glider pilots agree to follow rules that make sense
because these keep us alive. GFA is overlaying this with rules addressing
'fear of litigation' against themselves, to be shifted onto the volunteers.

The current conversation, either in its form today or some future time, will
result in the demise of the GFA. Glider pilots will find their own way to
fly the kind of sport each group within the sport 

Re: [Aus-soaring] Morning Glory in the Bight

[Noel Roediger]

A similar system occurs all over the planet but it is rarely visible.

It exists from SL up to the Tropopause and way beyond.

In Australian Met terms your deduction is correct. 

Noel.

-Original Message-
From: Aus-soaring [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.base64.com.au] On Behalf
Of Teal
Sent: Friday, January 13, 2017 2:39 PM
To: aus-soaring@lists.base64.com.au
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Morning Glory in the Bight

I saw the photo on Twitter without the article a day or two ago; it's good
to have a bit more context for it. I thought "Morning Glory" was used
specifically for the Gulf of Carpenteria rollcloud formations. But this one
surely does look glorious! Thanks for sharing the link.


Teal


On 13/01/2017 2:32 PM, Jim Staniforth wrote:
> Newspaper article
> http://tinyurl.com/gsmxwne
> Looks incredible.
> Jim
>
>
>
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Re: [Aus-soaring] Eagle attacks (Noel Roediger)

[Noel Roediger]

Hello John.

 

Re-reading what I wrote can be miss-construed as I deleted an explanative
sentence because it was clumsy English.

 

What I should have said is:  If you've not been attacked  by a raptor during
a significant period of soaring the only avian you should treat with real
caution is the Australian Pelican. (for reasons previously described).

 

Raptors do have a variable response to individual  glider pilots and I've
ample evidence - from many Aus. soaring pilots to back up this statement.

 

Why?.  I  don't know yet but believe they have more senses than we realize. 

 

NOW; A request to all.

 

Some years ago - while visiting friends in the US -  I looked out of their
condo. window and spotted a bloke flying a magnificent falcon in the
community park.

 

As I got down to the  park she returned to his gauntlet and tho. jess'd,
remained unhooded .

 

Approaching them and  while introducing myself to him  she began to chirrup
and allowed me to stroke her.

 

So began an instant friendship with her owner who happened to be the
Professor of Ornithology of a well known US university.

 

We spoke for many hours over the next two days discussing Australian Raptors
and I promised to write a paper for him on the subject.

 

However, on returning home, I found I'd placed his contact details in a
"secret place" and they only came to light a couple of days ago.

 

Any way, it seems sensible to include all of your experiences in my paper. 

 

I've attached a fairly long  list of questions and will appreciate you
returning your experiences to me.

 

With thanks.

 

Noel.

 

From: Aus-soaring [ <mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.base64.com.au>
mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.base64.com.au] On Behalf Of John Gwyther
(BIGPOND)
Sent: Friday, November 18, 2016 6:13 AM
To:  <mailto:aus-soaring@lists.base64.com.au>
aus-soaring@lists.base64.com.au
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Eagle attacks (Noel Roediger)

 

I think Noel's comment that we only need worry about Pelicans causing us
mid-air catastrophe is a bit unwise.

I suffered an eagle mid-air in Spring some years back wherein it rolled on
its back about 200' above me and dropped straight down. This after putting
up with me for 2-3 turns in the thermal.

It struck mid-span right on the spar cap with a helluva bang, leaving a big
visible dent (on the spar cap!) and causing $8,000 worth of damage. I
shudder to think what a couple of kilos doing 50-60 knots vertically would
have done if it hit the cockpit, the tail boom, the tailplane, etc.

I've soared with eagles many times over 50+ years of soaring and they are
predictably aggressive in Spring and especially so when they have young with
them. Prior to the above incident, their attack was always a steep head-on
dive that was easy to spot and evade. I now choose to leave the thermal if
they manoeuvre to above me within 1-200 feet. 

That said, they are still a magnificent sight that inspires awe in the air
up close - that beak, those eyes and the way their small wing-top feathers
dance in the turbulent flow. I still can't outclimb them but, interestingly,
I have outclimbed Sea-eagles once or twice. Maybe that is because they don't
seem to climb too high the way Wedgies do.

Cheers

John Gwyther



Sharing Soaring Flight with Avians.docx
Description: MS-Word 2007 document
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Re: [Aus-soaring] Microair servicing - Is it still a thing?

[Noel Roediger]

Thanks Gary.

-Original Message-
From: Aus-soaring [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.base64.com.au] On Behalf Of 
Gary Stevenson
Sent: Monday, October 24, 2016 10:18 PM
To: 'Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.'
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Microair servicing - Is it still a thing?

Hello Noel and Colin,
You obviously missed the bit about "upgrade kids".
I have attached a file which is a bit similar. I hope this attached file is 
suitably politically incorrect, and brings a smile to your lips.

Cheers,
Gary

-Original Message-
From: Aus-soaring [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.base64.com.au] On Behalf Of 
Noel Roediger
Sent: Monday, 24 October 2016 7:33 PM
To: 'Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.'
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Microair servicing - Is it still a thing?

Mark. 

Back to school for a spelling test.  SCEPTICAL

We've a few avionic "experts" on the  airfield and I recall being told Microair 
has been taken over by a USA organisation.

Mike B: can you comment?

Noel.

-Original Message-
From: Aus-soaring [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.base64.com.au] On Behalf Of 
Mark Newton
Sent: Monday, October 24, 2016 1:43 PM
To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
Subject: [Aus-soaring] Microair servicing - Is it still a thing?

Back in April, with an intermittent fault on an Microair T2000SFL transponder, 
I contacted Microair and Scott told me that he was expecting new main boards in 
about six weeks.

Contacting them again now, I’m informed that they’ll have upgrade kids in 
February 2017.

Color me skeptical.

Does anyone know if Microair still retain the capability to maintain any of the 
products they’ve sold?

Thanks,

  - mark


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Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
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Re: [Aus-soaring] Microair servicing - Is it still a thing?

[Noel Roediger]

Mark. 

Back to school for a spelling test.  SCEPTICAL

We've a few avionic "experts" on the  airfield and I recall being told Microair 
has been taken over by a USA organisation.

Mike B: can you comment?

Noel.

-Original Message-
From: Aus-soaring [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.base64.com.au] On Behalf Of 
Mark Newton
Sent: Monday, October 24, 2016 1:43 PM
To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
Subject: [Aus-soaring] Microair servicing - Is it still a thing?

Back in April, with an intermittent fault on an Microair T2000SFL transponder, 
I contacted Microair and Scott told me that he was expecting new main boards in 
about six weeks.

Contacting them again now, I’m informed that they’ll have upgrade kids in 
February 2017.

Color me skeptical.

Does anyone know if Microair still retain the capability to maintain any of the 
products they’ve sold?

Thanks,

  - mark


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Re: [Aus-soaring] Kingaroy Nationals - link to results?

[Noel Roediger]

Today, at Gawler, we celebrated the life of a highly respected member of the
international community of aviators who began his first flying steps with
the ASC.

 

After completion of ceremonies a large group of professional pilots gathered
and discussed the woeful situation CASA has forced us into.

 

It was apparent there was a common failing - both within CASA and the
industry.

 

That is - there is no display of common-sense by either group.

 

The world competition governance have refuted that in Soaring Spot.

 

Google it and you'll find results of all soaring comps.

 

Noel.

rom: Aus-soaring [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.base64.com.au] On Behalf
Of Mike Borgelt
Sent: Saturday, October 22, 2016 10:07 AM
To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Kingaroy Nationals - link to results?

 

There is this amazing thing called Google. I just put in "Australian
National gliding Championships 2016" and the 5th hit was Soaring Spot with
the links.

Mike




 At 07:14 AM 10/22/2016, you wrote:



Ooops. Actually I do find a nice yellow tag at
http://www.glidingaustralia.org/member-services   but I get no further I get
a 'My connection is not private' warning.

FYI




Alan Wilson 
Sent from Samsung Galaxy tab S


 Original message 
From: Alan  
Date: 22/10/2016 08:08 (GMT+10:00) 
To: "Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia."
 
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Kingaroy Nationals - link to results? 

Justin, many thanks. It is so easy when one knows how.

I could not find that on GFA site using my logic?

Looks like a great weeks gliding was had by all..

Alan Wilson 
Sent from Samsung Galaxy tab S
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Borgelt Instruments - design & manufacture of quality soaring
instrumentation since 1978
www.borgeltinstruments.com  
tel:   07 4635 5784 overseas: int+61-7-4635 5784
mob: 042835 5784 :  int+61-42835 5784
P O Box 4607, Toowoomba East, QLD 4350, Australia 

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Re: [Aus-soaring] Eagle attacks

[Noel Roediger]

It is an established fact raptors  attack sailplanes flown by pilots they see 
as air pollution. 

 

It’s the pilot they attack – not the sailplane. 

 

Noel

From: Aus-soaring [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.base64.com.au] On Behalf Of 
Angus Stewart
Sent: Thursday, October 13, 2016 11:22 AM
To: aus-soaring@lists.base64.com.au
Subject: [Aus-soaring] Eagle attacks

 

Just saw this article from WA - 

 

https://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/wa/a/32876540/bird-strike-forces-glider-emergency/

 

Pilot very lucky to get out of that with only minor injuries and a broken 
canopy.

 

Anyone else got some interesting eagle attack stories?

 

/Gus

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Re: [Aus-soaring] Schneider ES-59 Arrow

[Noel Roediger]

Hi Chris.

 

Spent some of yesterday with Harry and asked about a two piece winged Arrow as 
I couldn’t recall any such type being produced by ES pty ltd.

 

He said all were produced with a one piece wing.

 

Who modified them to two wings?

 

I suspect Doug Vanstan!!

 

Neither of us has any knowledge of such a type and we’d appreciate info.

 

Purely by chance I received an email from a bloke in SFO asking info on s/n 58 
Arrow which he saved from landfill. Fuselage, rudder and tailplane are 
restorable but he reckons the wing is irreparable.

 

That Arrow was the first production model.  It was test flown at Gawler by 
Harry and then packed in a crate and sent to Argentina for Jack Iggulden to fly 
in the world comps.

 

I recall it was purchased by Al Leffler and shipped to the USA from Argentina.

 

The ASC purchased the first ES 59 which was written off after it spun in from a 
cable break.

 

The Argentine Arrow was next and I can’t remember the sequential purchasers in 
order but they were DDGC, Navy, GGC, Pt. Augusta and Barossa.

 

Noel

From: Aus-soaring [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.base64.com.au] On Behalf Of 
Christopher McDonnell
Sent: Saturday, August 6, 2016 7:08 AM
To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Schneider ES-59 Arrow

 

Thanks. Not idle curiosity.

 

Chris

 

From: Gary Stevenson   

Sent: Friday, August 05, 2016 10:42 PM

To: 'Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.' 
  

Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Schneider ES-59 Arrow

 

Chris,

PK has a two piece wing. Other than that, I don’t know, and I don’t really 
care. Maybe there are 6 of them? Why do you want the information anyway? 
Suggest that you give Roy a call  if your query is more than just idle 
curiosity. 

Cheers,

Gary

 

 

From: Aus-soaring [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.base64.com.au] On Behalf Of 
Christopher McDonnell
Sent: Friday, 5 August 2016 9:50 PM
To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Schneider ES-59 Arrow

 

That glider is in Victoria Gary. Are you sure? My info is it is a Qld glider 
GNK. Are there 2 then?

 

Cheers

 

Chris

 

From: Gary Stevenson   

Sent: Friday, August 05, 2016 9:33 PM

To: 'Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.' 
  

Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Schneider ES-59 Arrow

 

Chris,

VH-GPK. Owner details on the CASA site are current.

Gary

 

From: Aus-soaring [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.base64.com.au] On Behalf Of 
Christopher McDonnell
Sent: Friday, 5 August 2016 7:28 PM
To: aus-soaring@lists.base64.com.au
Subject: [Aus-soaring] Schneider ES-59 Arrow

 

There are 6 of the above registered.

Does anybody know which one has the two piece wing.

Approval documentation for the modification would be a bonus but I will not 
hold my breath.

 

Cheers

 

Chris

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Re: [Aus-soaring] [gfaforum] One generation to the next

[Noel Roediger]

Thanks Mark.

 

Most interesting but I find many Diamond “c’s” and some of the Aus 1000km 
pilots not included.

 

Scott Percival and Roger Bond both flew !000 from Gawler and I couldn’t find 
them on list.

 

I flew the same task with  Scott and Roger which took place on separate 
days/years.

 

On both these flights I experienced situations that were incredible. Will 
record later.

 

Scott and Roger:  do you Know why you don’t appear in the list?

 

I’m bemused by the FAI’s list of Diamond “C” holders.

 

They are linear and correct from No.1 – 26..

 

Then we see no.164, next 685 and then1141.

 

After that acknowledgements a sequential.

 

I think Merv Waghorn was the first holder but flew his height leg overseas, and 
Max Hedt was our first pilot who flew all legs in Aus.

 

Correct me if I’m wrong.

 

What has happened  to the missing intermediate records.

 

Noel.

From: Mark Bland [mailto:marklibe...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Sunday, July 31, 2016 12:15 PM
To: 'Bernie O'Donnell'; 'Tim Shirley - IT Admin'
Cc: 'Tom & Kerrie Claffey'; 'Ron Sanders'; 'Gliding Australia Forum'; 
'Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.'
Subject: RE: [gfaforum] One generation to the next

 

This will answer everyone: http://www.fai.org/igc-our-sport/badges-and-diplomas 

Cheers

Mark

 

From: Bernie O'Donnell [mailto:bernber...@live.com.au] 
Sent: Sunday, 31 July 2016 9:53 AM
To: Tim Shirley - IT Admin
Cc: Tom & Kerrie Claffey; Ron Sanders; Gliding Australia Forum; Discussion of 
issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
Subject: Re: [gfaforum] One generation to the next

 

I was with Tim on thinking Bruce Tuncks being first in Aus. What year did Paul 
do his?

Think Steve was 18..

Cheers

Bernie O'Donnell

Sent from my iPhone


On 31 Jul 2016, at 8:35 AM, Tim Shirley - IT Admin 
 wrote:

Happy to be corrected.  Thank you.

 

On Sun, Jul 31, 2016 at 6:58 AM, Tom & Kerrie Claffey  
wrote:

Nope Tim, 

 

Steve O'Donnell at 17 for Australia.

Paul Mander at Narromine (first 1000k 15 M triangle in the WORLD)

Andy Pybus in 83/84 in LS4 at Narromine.

Tom

...



On Saturday, 30 July 2016, Tim Shirley - IT Admin 
 wrote:

Hi Ron, 

 

1st 15M 1000km was I think Bruce Tuncks in a Mosquito in 1981 or 1982.  Flying 
out of Gawler.  The triangle was something like Gawler -Quorn- Redcliff-Gawler.

 

I can't answer the other questions.

 

Cheers

 

On Sat, Jul 30, 2016 at 9:58 PM, Ron Sanders  wrote:

Just wondering of any of the new generation of glider pilots can tell me: 

 

What was the age of the youngest Australian glider pilot to do 1000 K triangle?

 

Who did the first 15m 1000 K triangle and where?

 

Who did and where for the first standard class 1000 K triangle.

 

Ron

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Re: [Aus-soaring] Fw: Nigel's omission

[Noel Roediger]

Hello Emellis.

 

I agree totally with your comments.

 

I reckon I could post ten questions to GFA exec. related  to the formation
and history  of our organisation and get no correct answers.

 

I'm about to throw a series of questions to Mandy, Terry and Tim in regard
to the importance of recording fact.

 

You'll be included.

 

Regards

 

Noel.

 

From: Aus-soaring [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.base64.com.au] On Behalf
Of emillis prelgauskas
Sent: Sunday, July 24, 2016 10:22 AM
To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Fw: Nigel's omission

 

This is indicative of the dilemma about corporate knowledge, as each
generation succeeding the one before

only knows what they know, and records that for posterity.

Like the re-imagining of the history of the sport's formation and early
growth by the late Maurice Little when the current magazine replaced

the several previous iterations; and was published there but which was so
wildly wrong that re-writes and retractions were called for.

 

The problem becomes that the record such as an award becomes the permanent
record and is then repeated into the future.

That is why correcting the historical record early in manifest ways is
important.

 

Emilis

 

 

On 23 Jul 2016, at 9:06 pm, Harry  wrote:

I truly believe that overlooking Nigel's contribution was an unintentional
oversight. The first I heard of the award was today and I immediately phoned
Nigel with my concern as to him not being given credit for what he had done.
I then also emailed an appropriate GFA official suggesting that it might be
possible to give the award on a joint basis. Was told it might be difficult
now but that the idea would be put to an subsequent  GFA board meeting. For
the record I investigated the use of Flarms overseas and then approached
Nigel in the hope he could manufacture them. As much as anyone I respect the
work Nigel, whom I count upon as a friend, contributes to the gliding
movement,

 

Bob,  Your concern and support of Nigel is justified and I truly hope the
omission can be rectified. It is about ten years since Flarms were
introduced into Australia and peoples memories are not always perfect
particularly when they were not personally involved,

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Re: [Aus-soaring] Fw: Nigel's omission

[Noel Roediger]

Reg. 

 

Chris’ response is spot on.

 

I can’t, off hand, recall any civilian award being made without the recipient  
being forewarned and  agreeing to accept it.

 

That is normal and accepted etiquette

 

The fact Harry learned of his award indirectly indicates the GFA trophy awards 
committee are not aware of this.

 

It is the obligation of the awards committee to verify any nomination and 
advise the proposed recipient. 

 

Noel.

 

From: Aus-soaring [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.base64.com.au] On Behalf Of 
Christopher McDonnell
Sent: Sunday, July 24, 2016 4:39 PM
To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Fw: Nigel's omission

 

Partly true Reg but I would have expected some due diligence to be applied.

Here is some fairly standard wording of conditions applied to awards processes. 
(bolding is mine)

 

“To preserve their prestige, an Honorary Award will only be made to persons of 
appropriate standing and there is no expectation or requirement on (insert) to 
make an award in any category in any year. (Insert) follows a rigorous 
selection process, using specified criteria and the application of due 
diligence and risk assessment processes designed.”

 

Unless something is meant to be a surprise it is not unusual to approach a 
nominee in confidence beforehand which in the case at hand would have been 
beneficial.

 

Chris

 

 

 

From: Reg Moore   

Sent: Sunday, July 24, 2016 2:41 PM

To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. 
  

Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Fw: Nigel's omission

 

The probable reason that Nigel wasn't considered for an award was that he was 
not nominated. The GFA Executive and Board can only issue awards to persons 
nominated they are not mind readers.  Don't blame the "GFA" it's up to us as 
members to ensure that people we think are worthy are put forward by either 
direct nomination to the Awards Officer or to our State's Board member. If a 
member did not get nominated it's our fault as members.

 

Reg Moore not Rob

 

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Re: [Aus-soaring] Fw: Nigel's omission

[Noel Roediger]

Well said Bob.

 

Noel.

From: Aus-soaring [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.base64.com.au] On Behalf Of 
Bob Ward
Sent: Saturday, July 23, 2016 7:17 PM
To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
Subject: [Aus-soaring] Fw: Nigel's omission

 

 

 

 

I seldom post on this site but feel strongly that Nigel Andrews has essentially 
been insulted by Harry’s award. As Harry pointed out, the associated comments 
in the announcement were correct. Harry did finance the development of Aus 
Flarm when he had confidence that Nigel was on to something very significant 
for the movement. Harry certainly deserves his award for backing something so 
significant. However I am somewhat ashamed that the GFA, an association of 
which I have been a member for 50 years, chose to award Harry for his 
contribution , while ignoring Nigel’s even more significant contribution. 

Would not a joint award of that prestigious award have been more appropriate?

 

Bob Ward

 

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Re: [Aus-soaring] Pik 20 tailwheel axle removal

[Noel Roediger]

Dear Roger.

 

Some time ago Brett Iggulden gave me a hammer that would suit your actions
and it is a favourite tool of mine.

 

The head is a lump of shaped aluminium (about 2.1/2 lbs) bonded onto a steel
tube handle.

 

You can belt the daylights out of any harder material without evidence.

 

What is happening re. council and BM airfield?

 

Regards

 

Noel

 

From: Aus-soaring [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.base64.com.au] On Behalf
Of Roger.D
Sent: Saturday, June 11, 2016 1:51 PM
To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Pik 20 tailwheel axle removal

 

Dear James,

Not sure if the following helps, but one issue in general with tailwheel
axles is that it is possible to bend them on very hard tailwheel touchdowns,
or landing touch down just before the lip between the low surface of the
runway gravel and the start of the bitumen seal.  Bent axles can be hard to
remove.  May in worst case have to cut through on both sides of wheel.  I
know about the issue with the step at the runway bitumen commencement as I
experienced this at Corowa with my Duo Discus.  Then we have had one
instance with club Duo Discus of axle bending slightly due hard landing but
just succeeded in getting it out without cutting. (I won't admit to any
excessive use of a hammer  but )

RegardsRoger Druce

 

On 11/06/2016 1:48 PM, james dutschke wrote:

Hi.

Im looking to fix a slow leak in a tailwheel on my pik.

Is there a trick to getting the axle out once the split pin and nut have
come out? 

Cheers 
James 






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Re: [Aus-soaring] [gfaforum] Glider Registration

[Noel Roediger]

GSG was originally imported and operated by bobby gibbes who owned and operated 
gibbes sepik airways. in PNG.

 

There are numerous aircraft not under the GFA banner on the VH register that 
are VH-G’s.

 

Many were there before GFA was formed but unfortunately, after the requirement 
to register GFA sailplanes, while intended the GFA did not reserve that G block.

 

Noel.

From: Aus-soaring [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.base64.com.au] On Behalf Of 
Nick Gilbert
Sent: Sunday, April 24, 2016 7:16 PM
To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] [gfaforum] Glider Registration

 

Interestingly, the rego of my 1977 Mosquito (VH-GSG) was a Noorduyn Norseman 
before it was allocated to a glider. 

 

Nick. 

On Sunday, April 24, 2016, Mike Borgelt  wrote:

Twenty six letters in the alphabet. So 26 x 26 combinations =676.

So nearly half the gliders and motor gliders aren't G_ _.

There is also at least one powered aircraft with a G registration. IIRC it was 
a Cessna 182. There may be more.

Mike

At 08:58 AM 4/24/2016, you wrote:



Hi all,

I probably should know this but how do we control registrations. 
Hackett, Borgelt or Scutter will no how to calculate how many markings are 
available starting with G but I suspect that there are many G _ _ that are 
unflown.

I guess my question is how many gliders are out there never to fly again and do 
we actively control them. 

I get that there are many aircraft that are capable of restoration however 
surely things like Blaniks and other things hanging from hangar trusses that 
will never be flown again can be de-registered back to their serial number so 
that should a miracle happen they can be registered.

Justin 

Sent from my iPad
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since 1978
www.borgeltinstruments.com  
tel:   07 4635 5784 overseas: int+61-7-4635 5784
mob: 042835 5784 :  int+61-42835 5784
P O Box 4607, Toowoomba East, QLD 4350, Australia 

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Re: [Aus-soaring] Comparing accident rates

[Noel Roediger]

Dear all .

 

I do intend to comment on this thread later. There are so many inaccuracies but 
I’m limited to 1 finger typing for a while.

 

Gary. I recall henry showing me drawings of a 70-1 sailplane back in the early 
70’s and bev attended a lecture he gave at rmit on this subject.

 

We caught up with his children last year which was great as we had all impacted 
on each other all those years ago.

 

From: Aus-soaring [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.base64.com.au] On Behalf Of 
Leigh Bunting
Sent: Friday, March 11, 2016 1:54 PM
To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Comparing accident rates

 

What? Name calling? Mature men getting to that stage? I'll have to go to the 
trash bin to have a look, coz I've been wearing out the delete key on that 
thread. I lost interest long ago on that one.

Just goes to show that Anarchy (apart from being a quaint village you fly over 
on the way into Avalon) really is only a thin veneer distant below civilized 
society.

Hey Simon, is that your PC12 parked at Gawler. I couldn't see the rego from the 
road. The bushes are growing very well.

Cheers
Leigh Bunting
Balaklava GC

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