Re: [Aus-soaring] Start procedures-defacto start height

2008-05-29 Thread Nigel Andrews
If you fly the State comps from DDSC, they have a defacto max start height
anyway - called Oakey airspace, usually 7,000ft

 

Nig

 

 

 

Mark Said: 

"Hey, how about team flying, that would be a great idea?? It might become
fun again also."

I say, hear hear (or here here!)!  But then again, it's not much fun for the
people who don't know how to effictively team fly... Is leaching allowed
everyday though!! haha :)
 
 
 
My thoughts on the new start procedures, I dont see what the problem is
really.  I belive I'm one of the most determined comp pilots in Australia,
and in all my previous starts, I climb up, dordle into the start gate,
dordle out of the gate, then ease into the cruise.
 
Ok, reading 'winning on the wind I and II' this is inefficient, as I'd loose
20seconds on the guy who 'zoomed' through the start gate.  I call this 'good
airmanship' on my behalf though.  I've got no doubt that many start like
this too (ie, not mach2 with their hair on fire)..
 
What I'd like to see though, is that the start speed is above 80kts - so
that you basically dont have to think about it.
 
I believe that the start height limit of approx 500' below CB is a little
crazy though.  As this will have my head in the cockpit (somewhat) to ensure
that I dont get penalised.   Also, the competition scorer/CD will have to
declare what the QNH is for scoring purposes.  Then it's up to the comp
pilot to ensure that he has a servicable altimeter and calibrated logger.
Otherwise, if you get pinned - it's your fault..
 
At the JWGC05, I don't remember any drama's with the start line/sector,
height limit (and 2 minutes spent below it!).  I can't really remember,
though I dont remember any speed restrictions out of the line.  I think all
the juniors had their heads screwed on there, seeing as though it was
conjested at times, we'd all ease into the cruise as I said I do above.
 
Having said all that, I dont see too much advantage in starting at altitude
anyway.  Except that it gives the competitors who are up there a nice warm
fuzzy feeling to start the race with.  I still call that I'm 5000' above
base anyways, really sturs up/puts off the competitors that are at my height
anyway
 
Like I said, doesn't really bother me, I'll just play the game as the rules
say.
 
 
My two cents,
WPP

 

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Re: [Aus-soaring] GFA, marketing and democracy in the GFA

2008-05-29 Thread Phil McCann




Outstanding, Robert!


Best, most succinct summing up of the problem, ever.


Cheers

Phil

Robert Hart wrote:
Mike
Borgelt wrote:
  
  
People like Jenny and Robert Hart and others who "don't have problem
with all this" will never be able to understand or fix the problem.

  
Good grief, Mike
  
  
If you think that I "don't have a problem" with the way the GFA is run,
then you have truly been reading what I have written (for quite some
years) with a closed mind.
  
  
You tell me who is more likely to actually change the GFA - someone who
sits outside and endlessly criticises whilst doing absolutely nothing
towards creating change (but never-the-less lives off the GFA
membership) or someone who, despite their misgivings, gets involved and
actually spends their time and energy on trying to achieve change?
  
  
Your statement has truly disappointed me. I had thought considerably
better of you than this.
  
  


-- 
Phil McCann
Try Gliding
http://www.bendigogliding.org.au/



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Re: [Aus-soaring] Start procedures

2008-05-29 Thread Adam Woolley



Mark Said: 
"Hey, how about team flying, that would be a great idea?? It might become fun 
again also."
I say, hear hear (or here here!)!  But then again, it's not much fun for the 
people who don't know how to effictively team fly... Is leaching allowed 
everyday though!! haha :)
 
 
 
My thoughts on the new start procedures, I dont see what the problem is really. 
 I belive I'm one of the most determined comp pilots in Australia, and in all 
my previous starts, I climb up, dordle into the start gate, dordle out of the 
gate, then ease into the cruise.
 
Ok, reading 'winning on the wind I and II' this is inefficient, as I'd loose 
20seconds on the guy who 'zoomed' through the start gate.  I call this 'good 
airmanship' on my behalf though.  I've got no doubt that many start like this 
too (ie, not mach2 with their hair on fire)..
 
What I'd like to see though, is that the start speed is above 80kts - so that 
you basically dont have to think about it.
 
I believe that the start height limit of approx 500' below CB is a little crazy 
though.  As this will have my head in the cockpit (somewhat) to ensure that I 
dont get penalised.   Also, the competition scorer/CD will have to declare what 
the QNH is for scoring purposes.  Then it's up to the comp pilot to ensure that 
he has a servicable altimeter and calibrated logger.  Otherwise, if you get 
pinned - it's your fault..
 
At the JWGC05, I don't remember any drama's with the start line/sector, height 
limit (and 2 minutes spent below it!).  I can't really remember, though I dont 
remember any speed restrictions out of the line.  I think all the juniors had 
their heads screwed on there, seeing as though it was conjested at times, we'd 
all ease into the cruise as I said I do above.
 
Having said all that, I dont see too much advantage in starting at altitude 
anyway.  Except that it gives the competitors who are up there a nice warm 
fuzzy feeling to start the race with.  I still call that I'm 5000' above base 
anyways, really sturs up/puts off the competitors that are at my height 
anyway
 
Like I said, doesn't really bother me, I'll just play the game as the rules say.
 
 
My two cents,
WPP
_
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Re: [Aus-soaring] Start procedures

2008-05-29 Thread Bruce Taylor
Hi Ross,

I apologise if I have spoken out of turn, but I was under the impression that 
this start rule change was already in situ - you sent me a "draft" copy for the 
new operation guide, so does this mean that we are far from setting all of this 
in concrete? It feels to most of us, including members of the current NCC, that 
there is no return.

If you are seeking comments on its implementation, then why not have it out in 
the public arena? Why not let all those pilots who supposedly voted in favour 
of it at the Temora pilots meeting actually have a look at what they are going 
to be working with?

You claim that I was included in the process. That is not true. I stumbled upon 
it when I attended the meeting of the organising committee for the next club 
class nationals in Kingaroy last w/e, and have started asking questions since 
then.

There have been a few comments about my task-setting suggestion. The first leg 
does not have to be directly into wind. If you set the leg anywhere between 
south and north-west you will solve 99% of the problem. I have been in this 
situation and seen it work on many occasions. I believe that there is a simpler 
solution to the perceived problem than what we have in front of us.

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Re: [Aus-soaring] Special Request - Work Experience

2008-05-29 Thread D S Baker
So, a huge thanks to every who replied both on and off list. I now have a
nice list of people / places I can contact (either on her behalf, or get her
to contact them herself).

Anyway, I'm very grateful for this, and will let you all know how she goes

Dion Baker

-- 
 you know what i hate
 errors that wont go away
 So you dislike children too
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Re: [Aus-soaring] Start procedures

2008-05-29 Thread Kevin Roden
At least one start line drama over a start line. Mid-air at Leeton about
1983. Back when we were required to cross the start line under 3280 feet.

2 gliders approaching start line. One at or near Vne, one somewhat slower.
Faster one took off the slower gliders tail.

Both pilots are still around to recount their story. 

 

Kevin

 

From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mark Rowe
Sent: Friday, 30 May 2008 11:26 AM
To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Start procedures

 

Ross,
 
Yup thats the way it works, please be mindfull of the personalities and
drivers behind the change within that group of elected individuals.
Personally i see it as no big deal as long as a designated start line is
used rather than the beer can (ala GP starts). 
The thought of GP starts over a cylinder with converging aircraft from any
direction scares the crap out of me. 
Please keep in mind, logged ground speed can be fooled with a full drag
spiral dive through a point and then close it all up to slingshot after the
gate!! Yup,thats the tactics that are starting in GP. Even spinning to
altitude is being considered, shudder.
It used to happen with only airmanship (dunny house persuasion) stepping in
when things got dangerous. fact is the pilot is required to not operate
above VNE or rough air speed, if the pilot chooses to ignore this it is on
their head. It used to be common practice to push VNE though the gate, i
cannot ever remember a fatal or middair from this practice, i can remember
quite a few flutter and PIO problems though. Technology and improved
profiles should improve that.
The more complex and prescriptive rules get the harder it is to both compete
and enforce "rules". KISS principal comes to mind.
 
Keep up the good work mate, we need that updated operational guidlines for
competition and clearly defined rules.
Hey, how about team flying, that would be a great idea?? It might become fun
again also.
 
Cheers
Mark

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Re: [Aus-soaring] Start procedures

2008-05-29 Thread Mark Rowe

Ross,
 
Yup thats the way it works, please be mindfull of the personalities and drivers 
behind the change within that group of elected individuals.
Personally i see it as no big deal as long as a designated start line is used 
rather than the beer can (ala GP starts). 
The thought of GP starts over a cylinder with converging aircraft from any 
direction scares the crap out of me. 
Please keep in mind, logged ground speed can be fooled with a full drag spiral 
dive through a point and then close it all up to slingshot after the gate!! 
Yup,thats the tactics that are starting in GP. Even spinning to altitude is 
being considered, shudder.
It used to happen with only airmanship (dunny house persuasion) stepping in 
when things got dangerous. fact is the pilot is required to not operate above 
VNE or rough air speed, if the pilot chooses to ignore this it is on their 
head. It used to be common practice to push VNE though the gate, i cannot ever 
remember a fatal or middair from this practice, i can remember quite a few 
flutter and PIO problems though. Technology and improved profiles should 
improve that.
The more complex and prescriptive rules get the harder it is to both compete 
and enforce "rules". KISS principal comes to mind.
 
Keep up the good work mate, we need that updated operational guidlines for 
competition and clearly defined rules.
Hey, how about team flying, that would be a great idea?? It might become fun 
again also.
 
Cheers
Mark


From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]: [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Fri, 30 May 2008 09:31:46 
+1000Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Start procedures










Jim
If you go to the following link on the GFA website you will find the current 
set of rules, V1.53  August 2007.
http://www.gfa.org.au/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=393&Itemid=184
 
The three pilots meetings held each year at the National Competitions, Juniors, 
Club Class, and Multi Class, provide input and direction to the NCC on various 
rule change requests.  These are carried to the NCC through the Pilot 
Representatives, elected by the Pilots at those meetings, (1 for Juniors, 2 
Club Class, and 2 Multi Class). The NCC is composed of those elected Pilot Reps 
and the NCC Convener.  The requests and suggestions are discussed in detail by 
all members of the NCC, both prior to, and at, that meeting, and where 
appropriate, either rules or guidelines are formulated as a result.
 
The proposed rule changes are then circulated through various members of the 
gliding fraternity, experienced competition pilots, International pilots, 
thought leaders, previous members of NCC, and long time glider pilots, for a 
reality check. At this stage, after further NCC discussion, the rules can be 
amended, trialled, or scrapped.  Only after this quite rigorous process are 
they implemented into a new revision of the rules.
 
This process is currently in train for V1.6 of the rules which are still in 
Draft form.  Bruce had been included in this process, which is normally done in 
camera, but unfortunately, rather than participate in the process, he has 
chosen to go public with his opinion thereby causing the concern that both 
yourself and Jo have expressed and no doubt others have also felt.  I find this 
regrettable and disappointing.
 
NCC will continue this process of rules determination by informed consensus, 
and only then will the new release of  V1.6 be implemented and published on the 
GFA website, replacing the current version.
Current pilot representatives to the NCC are:
Juniors  - Heath L’Estrange
Club Class- Peter Temple and David Janssen
Multi Class- Peter Trotter and Don Woodward
These are the guys you elected to represent you and they are the people you 
need to talk to, to express your concerns and be positively and further 
involved in formulation of any new initiatives.
 
 
ROSS




From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of james 
crowhurstSent: Thursday, 29 May 2008 11:02 PMTo: Discussion of issues relating 
to Soaring in Australia.Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Start procedures
 
Bruce, I hear the same rumour. I went to the GFA website and found only the 
2001 rules and so cannot substantiate this change in the rules. I agree that 
this rule can work if a start line is introduced. used it for years whilst 
flying in the rain in Pommy land. Seemed ok then but there is increased 
workload in comparison to aussie rules. The rule was brought in then to prevent 
cloud flying in the start gate (even though you can start out of the top of the 
start sector, go figure!). If the height and speed are limited and we must also 
use the beer can, it has disaster written all over it.  The suggestion of 
having a start height and speed limit was brought up at the pilots meeting by 
Dave Jansen. He saw merit in the idea but the majority of the group thought 
that it would add too much heads in focus and complicated an already over 
regulated and stressful situation. If this rule

Re: [Aus-soaring] Gliding Sim Update

2008-05-29 Thread Patching
Go man, it looks fantastic. Well done and it just shows that if you want 
something so bad then just effing do it!!

Bravo Tom.
Best wishes
Ian Patching.
- Original Message - 
From: "Tom Wilksch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia." 


Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2008 10:26 AM
Subject: [Aus-soaring] Gliding Sim Update


For those who are interested, work continues.  Big thanks to Waikerie GC 
for the recently donated rudder pedals.


http://tomsglidersim.blogspot.com/

As ever I appreciate comments and suggestions

Cheers

Tom
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Re: [Aus-soaring] unsubscribe

2008-05-29 Thread John Giddy

Ashton,
Would it not work better if you followed the instructions at the bottom 
of your posting ?

John G.

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

   unsubscribe
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Re: [Aus-soaring] Start procedures

2008-05-29 Thread Glenn McLean
Hi Bruce,
Having used this start gate, and the start box system over many years at comps 
(mainly inter-service), I was glad to see this dangerous and unproductive 
practice eliminated. 
I am amazed that it has crept back into the system. The remote multiple start 
point system has been totally successful and I see no reason to change from 
that.  The urge to start on an even playing feild should never overide safety 
issues, and the current system is definately "best practise". 
My vote is leave the system as is.
Regards

  - Original Message - 
  From: Bruce Taylor 
  To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. 
  Sent: Thursday, May 29, 2008 9:32 PM
  Subject: [Aus-soaring] Start procedures


  Just wondering if there is general knowledge of the new start procedures for 
Aussie nationals? I first heard of it last w/e at Kingaroy.

  Seems we will be both height and speed limited - obviously one must not be 
implemented without the other, and all this with the same style of "beer can" 
start point, albeit slightly enlarged.

  I have some serious issues with this idea regarding safety. Having flown with 
height restrictions at a number of competitions, I have found it a difficult 
exercise requiring lots of head-down time. I have only flown this rule in 
conjunction with a start LINE, where everybody must cross in the one direction 
- not so our new system. The pilot must confirm being below height limit, below 
ground speed limit and inside start radius while still within the start area. 
This area naturally has a concentration of glider traffic, which may be 
arriving/leaving/thermalling in any number of directions.

  I am not promoting we return to a start line - we abandoned that idea more 
than a decade ago in the interests of... safety. We have refined the multiple 
start point system to suit our weather and tasks, and I believe that it has 
saved lives.

  I imagine the new procedure was raised to promote the perception of fairness; 
it may offend competitors to think that someone has climbed to flight levels in 
shear wave, whilst they are fumbling below cloud base thousands of feet below. 
I have to say that I myself have benefited from such a situation... just once 
in nearly 20 years of competition. If this is the problem, all we have to do is 
ensure that the task setters do not set a first leg that goes downwind. Simple 
as that. Even if you do start with a height advantage, this will be entirely 
lost by the time you arrive at the first thermal climb with all those who 
started much lower, due to your having flown into a much stronger headwind. All 
experienced nationals pilots I have asked about this matter agree totally.

  I feel very strongly about this. The new procedure is difficult and 
dangerous, and I believe it has hit the table with less than the required 
amount of forethought.

  BT


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Re: [Aus-soaring] Start procedures

2008-05-29 Thread Robert Hart

Jo Davis wrote:
 I agree it is a change that brings unnecessary risk to an already 
high workload situation, when ideally the focus is on looking out.
 
Aside from agreeing at the pilots meeting that it would bring in 
unnecesary complication when the workload is already high, the general 
consensus was that working sheer wave was a skill like all other 
skills that are tested during competition.  From memory the idea of 
restricting start heights was knocked on the head very quickly during 
the meeting, so it is surprising that despite that consensus it is 
apparently not only being discussed again but is already written 
into the rules.
 
The solution of having the first leg into wind is a far more elegant 
solution to the issue of an 'unfair advantage' at the start - simple 
and safe.
I'm afraid I can't remember the details of the pilot's meeting 
discussion on this topic at Temora. I've emailed Ross asking for him to 
clarify things.


However, I really don't think that requiring the first leg of a task to 
be into wind is a solution as this will truly restrict task setters. 
Furthermore, there is also the issue of deciding what "into wind means". 
Whilst mountain wave (which is what I remember Bruce getting into at the 
Kingaroy state comps a few years back and starting from over 11,000ft 
whilst the rest of us blundered around at about 6,000ft) requires the 
wind to be relatively constant in direction with increasing height, this 
is not the case with shear wave - where there can be a significant 
difference between the wind direction in the thermal boundary layer and 
that part of the atmosphere in which the wave is occurring (I have seen 
lenticulars at 90 degrees to the lower winds).


The task setter's job is already quite difficult and restricting them by 
requiring the first leg "into wind" is, I believe, going to make it very 
much more difficult.


I personally do not have a problem with allowing people to use shear 
wave. I always look for it pre-start in a comp and have found it a 
couple of times the but not to the extent where it was significant. If 
someone finds it and uses it, that's fine by me.


The speed restriction doesn't worry me too much (it's reasonably easy to 
monitor speed from the noise), but watching height does bother me as 
this will require more head in cockpit time and thinking time...not good 
when the sky is rather full or glass and carbon...


--

Robert Hart  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
+61 (0)438 385 533   http://www.hart.wattle.id.au


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Re: [Aus-soaring] Start procedures

2008-05-29 Thread Ross McLean
Jim

If you go to the following link on the GFA website you will find the current
set of rules, V1.53  August 2007.

http://www.gfa.org.au/index.php?option=com_content
 &task=view&id=393&Itemid=184

 

The three pilots meetings held each year at the National Competitions,
Juniors, Club Class, and Multi Class, provide input and direction to the NCC
on various rule change requests.  These are carried to the NCC through the
Pilot Representatives, elected by the Pilots at those meetings, (1 for
Juniors, 2 Club Class, and 2 Multi Class). The NCC is composed of those
elected Pilot Reps and the NCC Convener.  The requests and suggestions are
discussed in detail by all members of the NCC, both prior to, and at, that
meeting, and where appropriate, either rules or guidelines are formulated as
a result.

 

The proposed rule changes are then circulated through various members of the
gliding fraternity, experienced competition pilots, International pilots,
thought leaders, previous members of NCC, and long time glider pilots, for a
reality check. At this stage, after further NCC discussion, the rules can be
amended, trialled, or scrapped.  Only after this quite rigorous process are
they implemented into a new revision of the rules.

 

This process is currently in train for V1.6 of the rules which are still in
Draft form.  Bruce had been included in this process, which is normally done
in camera, but unfortunately, rather than participate in the process, he has
chosen to go public with his opinion thereby causing the concern that both
yourself and Jo have expressed and no doubt others have also felt.  I find
this regrettable and disappointing.

 

NCC will continue this process of rules determination by informed consensus,
and only then will the new release of  V1.6 be implemented and published on
the GFA website, replacing the current version.

Current pilot representatives to the NCC are:

Juniors  - Heath L'Estrange

Club Class- Peter Temple and David Janssen

Multi Class- Peter Trotter and Don Woodward

These are the guys you elected to represent you and they are the people you
need to talk to, to express your concerns and be positively and further
involved in formulation of any new initiatives.

 

 

ROSS

  _  

From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of james
crowhurst
Sent: Thursday, 29 May 2008 11:02 PM
To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Start procedures

 

Bruce,
 
I hear the same rumour. I went to the GFA website and found only the 2001
rules and so cannot substantiate this change in the rules. I agree that this
rule can work if a start line is introduced. used it for years whilst flying
in the rain in Pommy land. Seemed ok then but there is increased workload in
comparison to aussie rules. The rule was brought in then to prevent cloud
flying in the start gate (even though you can start out of the top of the
start sector, go figure!).
 
If the height and speed are limited and we must also use the beer can, it
has disaster written all over it. 
 
The suggestion of having a start height and speed limit was brought up at
the pilots meeting by Dave Jansen. He saw merit in the idea but the majority
of the group thought that it would add too much heads in focus and
complicated an already over regulated and stressful situation.
 
If this rule change has taken place, I would like to know why the comps
committee have implemented this rule change when the majority thought it a
bad idea. 
 
In conclusion, I too believe that this rule change will have a severely
adverse effect on start gate safety and would like to seek clarity on this
rule change and the reasons for it. Then I would like to see the rule
overturned.
 
Jim

  _  

From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net
Date: Thu, 29 May 2008 21:32:42 +1000
Subject: [Aus-soaring] Start procedures

Just wondering if there is general knowledge of the new start procedures for
Aussie nationals? I first heard of it last w/e at Kingaroy.

 

Seems we will be both height and speed limited - obviously one must not be
implemented without the other, and all this with the same style of "beer
can" start point, albeit slightly enlarged.

 

I have some serious issues with this idea regarding safety. Having flown
with height restrictions at a number of competitions, I have found it a
difficult exercise requiring lots of head-down time. I have only flown this
rule in conjunction with a start LINE, where everybody must cross in the one
direction - not so our new system. The pilot must confirm being below height
limit, below ground speed limit and inside start radius while still within
the start area. This area naturally has a concentration of glider traffic,
which may be arriving/leaving/thermalling in any number of directions.

 

I am not promoting we return to a start line

Re: [Aus-soaring] GFA, marketing and democracy in the GFA

2008-05-29 Thread Robert Hart

Mike Borgelt wrote:


People like Jenny and Robert Hart and others who "don't have problem 
with all this" will never be able to understand or fix the problem.

Good grief, Mike

If you think that I "don't have a problem" with the way the GFA is run, 
then you have truly been reading what I have written (for quite some 
years) with a closed mind.


You tell me who is more likely to actually change the GFA - someone who 
sits outside and endlessly criticises whilst doing absolutely nothing 
towards creating change (but never-the-less lives off the GFA 
membership) or someone who, despite their misgivings, gets involved and 
actually spends their time and energy on trying to achieve change?


Your statement has truly disappointed me. I had thought considerably 
better of you than this.


--
Robert Hart  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
+61 (0)438 385 533   http://www.hart.wattle.id.au


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2008-05-29 Thread ashton.thomas
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Re: [Aus-soaring] Start procedures

2008-05-29 Thread Jo Davis
>
>  Hi Bruce
>

I agree it is a change that brings unnecessary risk to an already high
workload situation, when ideally the focus is on looking out.

Aside from agreeing at the pilots meeting that it would bring in unnecesary
complication when the workload is already high, the general consensus was
that working sheer wave was a skill like all other skills that are tested
during competition.  From memory the idea of restricting start heights was
knocked on the head very quickly during the meeting, so it is surprising
that despite that consensus it is apparently not only being discussed again
but is already written into the rules.

The solution of having the first leg into wind is a far more elegant
solution to the issue of an 'unfair advantage' at the start - simple and
safe.

Jo

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Re: [Aus-soaring] GFA, marketing and democracy in the GFA

2008-05-29 Thread Mike Borgelt

At 07:50 PM 29/05/2008, you wrote:

On Wed, 28 May 2008 11:08:36 +1000, Jenny Ganderton wrote:
>For those of us that are hooked on gliding, we don't have a problem
>with any of this - but how do you get people hooked?
>All positive suggestions welcomed!
>Jenny


Yes Jenny, even some who are hooked on this (for much longer and much
deeper than you), do have a problem with all this.
The GFA system even gets in the way of delivery from the experienced
end mentoring to the starters and evolving pilots.

The positive suggestion is to differentiate between what is policy,
what is regulatory, and what is fraternal.
Set 1, minimise 2, and laud and reward 3.




Outstanding, Emilis!

Best, most succinct summing up of the problem, ever.

People like Jenny and Robert Hart and others who "don't have problem 
with all this" will never be able to understand or fix the problem.


Mike


Borgelt Instruments - manufacturers of quality soaring instruments
phone Int'l + 61 746 355784
fax   Int'l + 61 746 358796
cellphone Int'l + 61 428 355784
  Int'l + 61 429 355784
email:   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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[Aus-soaring] training and coaching aid

2008-05-29 Thread erich wittstock
Another tool to check what you (or someone else) did.
Yes, SeeYou is one of the best tools for flight analysis.

IGC-Replay gives you a different perspective (cockpit view) and is free
(although donations are welcomed)
works with google earth 4.2, 4.3 onwards

http://ywtw.de/igcsimen.html

Erich
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Re: [Aus-soaring] Start procedures

2008-05-29 Thread james crowhurst

Bruce,
 
I hear the same rumour. I went to the GFA website and found only the 2001 rules 
and so cannot substantiate this change in the rules. I agree that this rule can 
work if a start line is introduced. used it for years whilst flying in the rain 
in Pommy land. Seemed ok then but there is increased workload in comparison to 
aussie rules. The rule was brought in then to prevent cloud flying in the start 
gate (even though you can start out of the top of the start sector, go figure!).
 
If the height and speed are limited and we must also use the beer can, it has 
disaster written all over it. 
 
The suggestion of having a start height and speed limit was brought up at the 
pilots meeting by Dave Jansen. He saw merit in the idea but the majority of the 
group thought that it would add too much heads in focus and complicated an 
already over regulated and stressful situation.
 
If this rule change has taken place, I would like to know why the comps 
committee have implemented this rule change when the majority thought it a bad 
idea. 
 
In conclusion, I too believe that this rule change will have a severely adverse 
effect on start gate safety and would like to seek clarity on this rule change 
and the reasons for it. Then I would like to see the rule overturned.
 
Jim


From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]: [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Thu, 29 May 2008 21:32:42 
+1000Subject: [Aus-soaring] Start procedures




Just wondering if there is general knowledge of the new start procedures for 
Aussie nationals? I first heard of it last w/e at Kingaroy.
 
Seems we will be both height and speed limited - obviously one must not be 
implemented without the other, and all this with the same style of "beer can" 
start point, albeit slightly enlarged.
 
I have some serious issues with this idea regarding safety. Having flown with 
height restrictions at a number of competitions, I have found it a difficult 
exercise requiring lots of head-down time. I have only flown this rule in 
conjunction with a start LINE, where everybody must cross in the one direction 
- not so our new system. The pilot must confirm being below height limit, below 
ground speed limit and inside start radius while still within the start area. 
This area naturally has a concentration of glider traffic, which may be 
arriving/leaving/thermalling in any number of directions.
 
I am not promoting we return to a start line - we abandoned that idea more than 
a decade ago in the interests of... safety. We have refined the multiple start 
point system to suit our weather and tasks, and I believe that it has saved 
lives.
 
I imagine the new procedure was raised to promote the perception of fairness; 
it may offend competitors to think that someone has climbed to flight levels in 
shear wave, whilst they are fumbling below cloud base thousands of feet below. 
I have to say that I myself have benefited from such a situation... just once 
in nearly 20 years of competition. If this is the problem, all we have to do is 
ensure that the task setters do not set a first leg that goes downwind. Simple 
as that. Even if you do start with a height advantage, this will be entirely 
lost by the time you arrive at the first thermal climb with all those who 
started much lower, due to your having flown into a much stronger headwind. All 
experienced nationals pilots I have asked about this matter agree totally.
 
I feel very strongly about this. The new procedure is difficult and dangerous, 
and I believe it has hit the table with less than the required amount of 
forethought.
 
BT
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Re: [Aus-soaring] A good landing

2008-05-29 Thread Rob and Anne
Sorry to say, no birch trees anywhere near the Bendigo Gliding Club that I
know of, let alone any inadvertent landings recently.
Rob Young,
Bendigo Gliding Club (in Northern Victoria, Australia)

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Re: [Aus-soaring] A good landing

2008-05-29 Thread rquinn
And he crashed into an aviation plywood tree.


Ah so he came from the Bendigo flying club.








Using Google translate

NEW VERSION KL 14.30. A glider crashed in the northern parts of the county
yesterday afternoon. Plane was broken and was hanging in a birch. The pilot
walk away with a small wound on a finger. 


It was a participant in Eskilstuna Open, a major international
segelflygtävling, which crashed up in the Bergslagen. 
-- It is about a finnish carts, "says Torbjörn Carlson, press officer at
Örebropolisen. 
Planes both wings was broken and aircraft with the cockpit was left hanging
tree. 
The accident occurred at the 16-time on Monday. 
-- I sat and watched on television when I heard that there smällde. I rushed
out to see what happened. Then I saw the aircraft in birch, "says a man who
lives nearby. 
-- I ran away to the plane and saw how the pilot jumped down. 


According to Bosse Christensson, President of the Bendigo Flygklubb hosting
flygtävlingen, is this type of crashes very rare. 
-- Sure, there are always landing on the measure, and then there is risk.
But the most common is that you encounter any stone, "says Christensson. 

Christensson does not know what caused the accident. 

-- There will accidents is to provide answers to. At such high capacities
here competitions, there are GPS loggrar on the plane that shows speed and
altitude. It is possible to reconstruct what happened. 

Wednesday is informed of the accident, but under Christensson, it will
probably be delegated to Segelflygförbundet to do accident investigations. 

-- Yes, for this is considered likely that a minor accident. 

The plane, which was completely destroyed when the Finnish pilot crashed was
worth a half million kronor 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Terry
Neumann
Sent: Thursday, 29 May 2008 1:50 PM
To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
Subject: [Aus-soaring] A good landing

This link was sent to me this morning by Ake Petterson.

http://www.na.se/artikel.asp?intId=1333986

If someone can translate from the Swedish for us it may throw a little light
on what the heck really happened.

Ake did mention that the pilot walked away uninjured, so I guess it does
qualify as a "good" landing - but almost certainly not a great one.

Terry
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[Aus-soaring] Start procedures

2008-05-29 Thread Bruce Taylor
Just wondering if there is general knowledge of the new start procedures for 
Aussie nationals? I first heard of it last w/e at Kingaroy.

Seems we will be both height and speed limited - obviously one must not be 
implemented without the other, and all this with the same style of "beer can" 
start point, albeit slightly enlarged.

I have some serious issues with this idea regarding safety. Having flown with 
height restrictions at a number of competitions, I have found it a difficult 
exercise requiring lots of head-down time. I have only flown this rule in 
conjunction with a start LINE, where everybody must cross in the one direction 
- not so our new system. The pilot must confirm being below height limit, below 
ground speed limit and inside start radius while still within the start area. 
This area naturally has a concentration of glider traffic, which may be 
arriving/leaving/thermalling in any number of directions.

I am not promoting we return to a start line - we abandoned that idea more than 
a decade ago in the interests of... safety. We have refined the multiple start 
point system to suit our weather and tasks, and I believe that it has saved 
lives.

I imagine the new procedure was raised to promote the perception of fairness; 
it may offend competitors to think that someone has climbed to flight levels in 
shear wave, whilst they are fumbling below cloud base thousands of feet below. 
I have to say that I myself have benefited from such a situation... just once 
in nearly 20 years of competition. If this is the problem, all we have to do is 
ensure that the task setters do not set a first leg that goes downwind. Simple 
as that. Even if you do start with a height advantage, this will be entirely 
lost by the time you arrive at the first thermal climb with all those who 
started much lower, due to your having flown into a much stronger headwind. All 
experienced nationals pilots I have asked about this matter agree totally.

I feel very strongly about this. The new procedure is difficult and dangerous, 
and I believe it has hit the table with less than the required amount of 
forethought.

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[Aus-soaring] unsubscribe

2008-05-29 Thread Bob Jenneson
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[Aus-soaring] Glasflügel Hornet 206 ???

2008-05-29 Thread Ben Jones
Hello all,

Does any one know where I can lay my hands on a electronic copy of any 
flight/service/maint manuals for the hornet.

Regards

Ben

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Re: [Aus-soaring] GFA, marketing and democracy in the GFA

2008-05-29 Thread Emilis Prelgauskas
On Wed, 28 May 2008 11:08:36 +1000, Jenny Ganderton wrote:
>For those of us that are hooked on gliding, we don't have a problem
>with any of this - but how do you get people hooked?
>All positive suggestions welcomed!
>Jenny


Yes Jenny, even some who are hooked on this (for much longer and much 
deeper than you), do have a problem with all this.
The GFA system even gets in the way of delivery from the experienced 
end mentoring to the starters and evolving pilots.

The positive suggestion is to differentiate between what is policy, 
what is regulatory, and what is fraternal.
Set 1, minimise 2, and laud and reward 3.


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Re: [Aus-soaring] A good landing

2008-05-29 Thread Mats Henrikson
It's a decent translation, not sure where the Bendigo came from
though... ;)

Some words that weren't translated:

segelflygtävling = sailplane competition
smällde = loud crash

Poor transaltions:
finnish carts = the glider was Finnish 
landing on the measure = outlandings on fields
encounter any stone = hit a rock

After "Christensson does not know what caused the accident.":

The accident investigation will find the cause. At these competitions
there are GPS logs showing the plane speed and altitude. It's possible
to reconstruct what happened.

The Accident Commission has been informed about the accident, but
according to Christensson it will probably be delegated to the Sailplane
Association to perform the accident investigation.

500,000 SEK is about $87,000 AUD.

Mats




On Thu, 2008-05-29 at 14:35 +1000, Robinson, Peter B wrote:
> Using Google translate
> 
> NEW VERSION KL 14.30. A glider crashed in the northern parts of the county 
> yesterday afternoon. Plane was broken and was hanging in a birch. The pilot 
> walk away with a small wound on a finger. 
> 
> 
> It was a participant in Eskilstuna Open, a major international 
> segelflygtävling, which crashed up in the Bergslagen. 
> -- It is about a finnish carts, "says Torbjörn Carlson, press officer at 
> Örebropolisen. 
> Planes both wings was broken and aircraft with the cockpit was left hanging 
> tree. 
> The accident occurred at the 16-time on Monday. 
> -- I sat and watched on television when I heard that there smällde. I rushed 
> out to see what happened. Then I saw the aircraft in birch, "says a man who 
> lives nearby. 
> -- I ran away to the plane and saw how the pilot jumped down. 
> 
> 
> According to Bosse Christensson, President of the Bendigo Flygklubb hosting 
> flygtävlingen, is this type of crashes very rare. 
> -- Sure, there are always landing on the measure, and then there is risk. But 
> the most common is that you encounter any stone, "says Christensson. 
> 
> Christensson does not know what caused the accident. 
> 
> -- There will accidents is to provide answers to. At such high capacities 
> here competitions, there are GPS loggrar on the plane that shows speed and 
> altitude. It is possible to reconstruct what happened. 
> 
> Wednesday is informed of the accident, but under Christensson, it will 
> probably be delegated to Segelflygförbundet to do accident investigations. 
> 
> -- Yes, for this is considered likely that a minor accident. 
> 
> The plane, which was completely destroyed when the Finnish pilot crashed was 
> worth a half million kronor 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Terry Neumann
> Sent: Thursday, 29 May 2008 1:50 PM
> To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
> Subject: [Aus-soaring] A good landing
> 
> This link was sent to me this morning by Ake Petterson.
> 
> http://www.na.se/artikel.asp?intId=1333986
> 
> If someone can translate from the Swedish for us it may throw a little light 
> on what the heck really happened.
> 
> Ake did mention that the pilot walked away uninjured, so I guess it does 
> qualify as a "good" landing - but almost certainly not a great one.
> 
> Terry
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Re: [Aus-soaring] A good landing

2008-05-29 Thread Phil McCann




I have referred this to the Bendigo Flying Club to see why they are
poaching our territory. :-) 

Phil McCann
Bendigo Gliding Club

Nigel Andrews wrote:

  Ah so he came from the Bendigo flying club.








Using Google translate

NEW VERSION KL 14.30. A glider crashed in the northern parts of the county
yesterday afternoon. Plane was broken and was hanging in a birch. The pilot
walk away with a small wound on a finger. 


It was a participant in Eskilstuna Open, a major international
segelflygtävling, which crashed up in the Bergslagen. 
-- It is about a finnish carts, "says Torbjörn Carlson, press officer at
Örebropolisen. 
Planes both wings was broken and aircraft with the cockpit was left hanging
tree. 
The accident occurred at the 16-time on Monday. 
-- I sat and watched on television when I heard that there smällde. I rushed
out to see what happened. Then I saw the aircraft in birch, "says a man who
lives nearby. 
-- I ran away to the plane and saw how the pilot jumped down. 


According to Bosse Christensson, President of the Bendigo Flygklubb hosting
flygtävlingen, is this type of crashes very rare. 
-- Sure, there are always landing on the measure, and then there is risk.
But the most common is that you encounter any stone, "says Christensson. 

Christensson does not know what caused the accident. 

-- There will accidents is to provide answers to. At such high capacities
here competitions, there are GPS loggrar on the plane that shows speed and
altitude. It is possible to reconstruct what happened. 

Wednesday is informed of the accident, but under Christensson, it will
probably be delegated to Segelflygförbundet to do accident investigations. 

-- Yes, for this is considered likely that a minor accident. 

The plane, which was completely destroyed when the Finnish pilot crashed was
worth a half million kronor 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Terry
Neumann
Sent: Thursday, 29 May 2008 1:50 PM
To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
Subject: [Aus-soaring] A good landing

This link was sent to me this morning by Ake Petterson.

http://www.na.se/artikel.asp?intId=1333986

If someone can translate from the Swedish for us it may throw a little light
on what the heck really happened.

Ake did mention that the pilot walked away uninjured, so I guess it does
qualify as a "good" landing - but almost certainly not a great one.

Terry
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-- 
Phil McCann
Try Gliding
http://www.bendigogliding.org.au/



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Re: [Aus-soaring] A good landing

2008-05-29 Thread Nigel Andrews
Ah so he came from the Bendigo flying club.








Using Google translate

NEW VERSION KL 14.30. A glider crashed in the northern parts of the county
yesterday afternoon. Plane was broken and was hanging in a birch. The pilot
walk away with a small wound on a finger. 


It was a participant in Eskilstuna Open, a major international
segelflygtävling, which crashed up in the Bergslagen. 
-- It is about a finnish carts, "says Torbjörn Carlson, press officer at
Örebropolisen. 
Planes both wings was broken and aircraft with the cockpit was left hanging
tree. 
The accident occurred at the 16-time on Monday. 
-- I sat and watched on television when I heard that there smällde. I rushed
out to see what happened. Then I saw the aircraft in birch, "says a man who
lives nearby. 
-- I ran away to the plane and saw how the pilot jumped down. 


According to Bosse Christensson, President of the Bendigo Flygklubb hosting
flygtävlingen, is this type of crashes very rare. 
-- Sure, there are always landing on the measure, and then there is risk.
But the most common is that you encounter any stone, "says Christensson. 

Christensson does not know what caused the accident. 

-- There will accidents is to provide answers to. At such high capacities
here competitions, there are GPS loggrar on the plane that shows speed and
altitude. It is possible to reconstruct what happened. 

Wednesday is informed of the accident, but under Christensson, it will
probably be delegated to Segelflygförbundet to do accident investigations. 

-- Yes, for this is considered likely that a minor accident. 

The plane, which was completely destroyed when the Finnish pilot crashed was
worth a half million kronor 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Terry
Neumann
Sent: Thursday, 29 May 2008 1:50 PM
To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
Subject: [Aus-soaring] A good landing

This link was sent to me this morning by Ake Petterson.

http://www.na.se/artikel.asp?intId=1333986

If someone can translate from the Swedish for us it may throw a little light
on what the heck really happened.

Ake did mention that the pilot walked away uninjured, so I guess it does
qualify as a "good" landing - but almost certainly not a great one.

Terry
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